Phipps impact on racing...

[Saratoga_Mike]

I wanted to reply to one of Slewis' posts (see below) on the Phipps, but it was off-topic. So that's why I started this new thread.

Question for slewis: if the Phipps have been so successful at forcing through an agenda that is mainly beneficial to their own interests, why are their racing operations less successful today than they were 20 yrs ago?



Sometime last year I posted a link to a study by PAULICK of how several of racings "ELITE" were slowly gaining complete control of the industry and how they planned on RAMMING THEIR AGENDA down everyone else's throat's.
The purpose was to change the rules and dynamics of the game to suit their breeding and racing philosophy and thus, being able to dominate the biggest races.

Polytrack, which many of these eliteist are vested into for financial gain, is ONE of several key aspects of their game plan. Keeneland, which is their "home court" made the switch. The Keeneland racing association has always been respected as the heart of thoroughbred racing.
If this elite group could POLY Keeneland and have successful meets at that track, it would be just a matter of time till the other tracks folded and followed suit.
So they come up with their phony study of how POLY is scientifically safer than dirt. How the horses will last longer, stay sounder.

Also in the study, was the ban on toe-grabs and mud calks which THEY deemed unsafe. They again, came up with a phony study and a hollywood-effects type video documenting just how dangerous these shoes are.
They played the video for every group of (suckers) racetrack executives and used the Eight Belles tragedy (who was not even wearing Calks or toe-grabs, and we raced a horse in that derby so I got a close look at Eight Belles and her equipment on the "derby walk" from the barn to the paddock, so it's fact) as a springboard to change shoe rules which have existed for 50 years.
I've already documented how GREAT TOP trainers like Jerkens, Frankel, Zito, Mclaughlin, even Woody Stephens,etc, have raced their TOP STAKES horses in Toe grabs AND Mud Calks.
None of these trainers were EVER consulted.

The truth Riley, is that it's Casner and Phipps's feeling that the shoes may be dangerous and they didn't want to race at a PERCIEVED unfair disadvantage to horses racing with toe-grabs and mud calks, so they jam this rule through in the name of "safety".

Now you (and others), may be reading MY POST and announce "what B S !"...but let me give you a very clear example of how Casner has succeeded.

Go watch the replay of this years Kentucky Derby. Watch ICE BOX move down the stretch and how he struggles to handle the track and how it takes a dozen strides for him to get going, but once he does get going, he's gaining VERY quickly on SUPER SAVER.

Had Ice Box been wearing mud calks and toe grabs, a typical ZITO shoeing, shoes which the NTRA even calls "Traction devices", Ice Box wins the Kentucky Derby, and Bill Casner and Win Star are dreaming about what could have been.

The Agenda is now a success.

Understand?

[igiveupregistering]

Why do you bother? That post by Slewis' is crazy.

Toe grabs and caulks have demonstrated they contribute to leg injuries.
NYRA bans them. Anyone has a problem they can race their horses at "tracks" with "no rules".

Slewis' conveniently "ignores" the FACT that Phipps' fought long and hard to ban LASIX in NY...

The Phipps' use few legal drugs on the horses...while the rest of the industry used any drugs they could to win races...until recently...maybe that is WHY the Phippss' horses racing on tracks with strict drug rules are winning again!!!

[cj]

Why do you bother? That post by Slewis' is crazy.

Toe grabs and caulks have demonstrated they contribute to leg injuries.
NYRA bans them. Anyone has a problem they can race their horses at "tracks" with "no rules".

Slewis' conveniently "ignores" the FACT that Phipps' fought long and hard to ban LASIX in NY...

The Phipps' use few legal drugs on the horses...while the rest of the industry used any drugs they could to win races...until recently...maybe that is WHY the Phippss' horses racing on tracks with strict drug rules are winning again!!!

Slewis has provided factual studies that back up his claim. What do you have?

[46zilzal]

This is an old story to the point that Jim Spears calls these forces "Dinnies" in his book Headless Horsemen

[lamboguy]

i don't think slewis was refering to phipps opperation. the phipps have and continue to carry the weight in racing today especially in new york and florida. the rules are put in place for that family not others.

[igiveupregistering]

Slewis has provided factual studies that back up his claim. What do you have?

Read the posts right here. Seems the issue is NOT black and white.

"Hey guys,Dont be so quick to hate the new rules,These things should have been banned ages ago. Take for instance toe grabs...Put your toes on a book and lean back on your foot...Hurts doesnt it!!...Mudcaulks are very dangerous to your own horse and others running in a race,Ive seen nasty tendon rips and holesin the legs due to mud caulks".

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:zY4sfOmmVG4J:www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php%3Ft%3D50974+mud+caulks+and+toe+grab s+injuries&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us


BTW, I've been a member here since 2003...I didn't just fall out of the sky...
my old nom de plume would not "work"..hence my "new one"

[Saratoga_Mike]

Slewis has provided factual studies that back up his claim. What do you have?

Slewis if you could re-post these studies, I'd appreciate it. Thanks.

[Saratoga_Mike]

i don't think slewis was refering to phipps opperation. the phipps have and continue to carry the weight in racing today especially in new york and florida. the rules are put in place for that family not others.

Actually he was referring to the Phipps operation. Who do you think he was referring to when he referenced the "Phipps?" I've read his thought on them in the past and was interested in pursuing it further.

[Saratoga_Mike]

This is an old story to the point that Jim Spears calls these forces "Dinnies" in his book Headless Horsemen

Non-sequitur...not surprised.

[slewis]

Why do you bother? That post by Slewis' is crazy.

Toe grabs and caulks have demonstrated they contribute to leg injuries.
NYRA bans them. Anyone has a problem they can race their horses at "tracks" with "no rules".

Slewis' conveniently "ignores" the FACT that Phipps' fought long and hard to ban LASIX in NY...

The Phipps' use few legal drugs on the horses...while the rest of the industry used any drugs they could to win races...until recently...maybe that is WHY the Phippss' horses racing on tracks with strict drug rules are winning again!!!

The post by Slewis is factual my man, not crazy.

If you call the number of races they win compared to the 10's of millions spent on breeding and racing successful..... You have just redefined the meaning of success.

[slewis]

Read the posts right here. Seems the issue is NOT black and white.

"Hey guys,Dont be so quick to hate the new rules,These things should have been banned ages ago. Take for instance toe grabs...Put your toes on a book and lean back on your foot...Hurts doesnt it!!...Mudcaulks are very dangerous to your own horse and others running in a race,Ive seen nasty tendon rips and holesin the legs due to mud caulks".

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:zY4sfOmmVG4J:www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php%3Ft%3D50974+mud+caulks+and+toe+grab s+injuries&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us


BTW, I've been a member here since 2003...I didn't just fall out of the sky...
my old nom de plume would not "work"..hence my "new one"

You don't know what your talking about....in PLAIN ENGLISH.

The STUPID example of the book is the typical dumb-type example which pushed this rule change through.

1st of all, horses race on a surface that GIVES.....DIRT.
When the thoroughbred puts its foot down, it cuts into the dirt. It DOES NOT hit cement (or a book) forcing it's leg in that direction.

When a horse wearing calks takes a turn, the shoe HELPS the horse avoid sliding in the opposite direction they are trying to turn.

Look at it like a baseball player rounding second heading for third....with cletes. they dig in and can take the turn better... without cletes, a player would only dig in the dirt SLIGHTLY and be much less effective....not to mention risking having that their leg slide out and pulling or tearing a muscle.

But forget all that crap.....lets get down to the most important facts here:

Slewis is a little pee-on in the Thoroughbred industry, BUT:

Allen Jerkens is not.
Kiran McLaughlin is not.
Nick Zito is not.
Bobby Frankel was not.

and I can add names like Pletcher, Jerkens, jr., Mike Hushion, Gary Contessa...the lists my friend goes on and on and on of trainers who have successfully shod CHAMPION horses wearing toe grabs and mud calks.

But of course, you know better. You've seen tendons slashed (like we've never seen tendons slashed on plain shod horses).

You've seen dozens of catastropic injuries....(yeah, the plain shod Poly races were gonna put an end to that)

Now I"m going to post another bit of info for you to digest:

Since NYRA joined the "agenda" I mean NTRA mandate, they have carefully, (from what I've been personally told by Rick Violette) kept records of fatalities. They have almost two (2) years of data.

Guess what, sir?..... the numbers are FLAT. No change in fatalities or serious injuries since the rule change compared to prior years.

Now, would you like to guess why this data has not been released?

I'll give you one guess, no, make that two guesses, because your so gullible, you need another chance....

Case closed.

[Saratoga_Mike]

You don't know what your talking about....in PLAIN ENGLISH.

The STUPID example of the book is the typical dumb-type example which pushed this rule change through.

1st of all, horses race on a surface that GIVES.....DIRT.
When the thoroughbred puts its foot down, it cuts into the dirt. It DOES NOT hit cement (or a book) forcing it's leg in that direction.

When a horse wearing calks takes a turn, the shoe HELPS the horse avoid sliding in the opposite direction they are trying to turn.

Look at it like a baseball player rounding second heading for third....with cletes. they dig in and can take the turn better... without cletes, a player would only dig in the dirt SLIGHTLY and be much less effective....not to mention risking having that their leg slide out and pulling or tearing a muscle.

But forget all that crap.....lets get down to the most important facts here:

Slewis is a little pee-on in the Thoroughbred industry, BUT:

Allen Jerkens is not.
Kiran McLaughlin is not.
Nick Zito is not.
Bobby Frankel was not.

and I can add names like Pletcher, Jerkens, jr., Mike Hushion, Gary Contessa...the lists my friend goes on and on and on of trainers who have successfully shod CHAMPION horses wearing toe grabs and mud calks.

But of course, you know better. You've seen tendons slashed (like we've never seen tendons slashed on plain shod horses).

You've seen dozens of catastropic injuries....(yeah, the plain shod Poly races were gonna put an end to that)

Now I"m going to post another bit of info for you to digest:

Since NYRA joined the "agenda" I mean NTRA mandate, they have carefully, (from what I've been personally told by Rick Violette) kept records of fatalities. They have almost two (2) years of data.

Guess what, sir?..... the numbers are FLAT. No change in fatalities or serious injuries since the rule change compared to prior years.

Now, would you like to guess why this data has not been released?

I'll give you one guess, no, make that two guesses, because your so gullible, you need another chance....

Case closed.

CJ implied earlier that you've released the data in the past, is that correct? If so, could you please re-post it? Thanks.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Slewis, are there any dirt tracks where you would not use calks?

[slewis]

Slewis if you could re-post these studies, I'd appreciate it. Thanks.


Mike, I would....but it's a lot of work and I'm preparing for Keeneland next week.

But just to refresh everyone's memory:

I comprised some 7 plus years of data at all three NYRA tracks....

Approx. 12,000 dirt races per year....

I have shoe information for virtually EVERY one of those runners, in a database, every day, which I PERSONALLY observed and recorded. ..(and there are people at NYRA who know me and can verify this).

The results of the study ( If I remember) were that over the last 8 years, the number of horses racing on the dirt with Mud calks and toe grabs increased from apprx 10% of all runners in 2001....to close to 24% in 2007.

As trainers learned how effective they were, more and more trainers were using them, some on ALL of their horses.

BUT:

The number (on a percentage basis) of fatalities or serious career ending injuries REMAINED CONSTANT...

PLUS....the percentage of fatalities or career ending injuries on Toe Grab-mud calk horses WAS LESS EACH AND EVERY YEAR..than that of plain shod horses.

I not only have these stats to back it up, but my database of each horse can be verified simply by NYRA radomly archiving video. Since NYRA was announcing back in 2001 and thereafter, when a horse was racing in mud calks, they could randomly check that video, if they thought my stats were "fudged" in any way shape or form.... You know...like the stats compiled by Dr. Susan Stover.... FUDGED...

[Saratoga_Mike]

Mike, I would....but it's a lot of work and I'm preparing for Keeneland next week.

But just to refresh everyone's memory:

I comprised some 7 plus years of data at all three NYRA tracks....

Approx. 12,000 dirt races per year....

I have shoe information for virtually EVERY one of those runners, in a database, every day, which I PERSONALLY observed and recorded. ..(and there are people at NYRA who know me and can verify this).

The results of the study ( If I remember) were that over the last 8 years, the number of horses racing on the dirt with Mud calks and toe grabs increased from apprx 10% of all runners in 2001....to close to 24% in 2007.

As trainers learned how effective they were, more and more trainers were using them, some on ALL of their horses.

BUT:

The number (on a percentage basis) of fatalities or serious career ending injuries REMAINED CONSTANT...

PLUS....the percentage of fatalities or career ending injuries on Toe Grab-mud calk horses WAS LESS EACH AND EVERY YEAR..than that of plain shod horses.

I not only have these stats to back it up, but my database of each horse can be verified simply by NYRA radomly archiving video. Since NYRA was announcing back in 2001 and thereafter, when a horse was racing in mud calks, they could randomly check that video, if they thought my stats were "fudged" in any way shape or form.... You know...like the stats compiled by Dr. Susan Stover.... FUDGED...

Interesting - I assume you were using the shoe info for wagering purposes, and then you tied it into this project? If you have time post-KEE, I'd love to see your full findings.

[slewis]

Slewis, are there any dirt tracks where you would not use calks?

If I were a trainer, the only criteria for not using them would be a horses confirmation. If it were such that a horse was hitting badly, and we couldn't trim the hoof to correct, I wouldn't allow my horse to hit with a calk.

As far as the surface itself, well..the dirt at California tracks from what I was told was always too hard.

I might not out there. Hard ractracks break horses down, NOT toe grabs or calks.

Also, when a track was REALLY REALLYT sloppy and the horses are hitting the base...that might make me change my mind. But I'd probably scratch if it's that bad regardless of shoes.

My database shows very very sloppy tracks are extremely dangerous..and shoes have nothing to do with it.

It's like the old hard astroturf for football players....no cushion.

[slewis]

Interesting - I assume you were using the shoe info for wagering purposes, and then you tied it into this project? If you have time post-KEE, I'd love to see your full findings.

It's no secret that there was a period of time when shoe changes offered unique betting opportunites. Back in the early 90's, there were several huge bettors who used shoe changes as a serious betting angle. I saw it for my own eyes, sometimes in disbelief, especially when a 12-1 shot would win.

Word slowly crept it's way to the press, and the NY racing press DEMANDED that NYRA announce horses wearing quarter inch bends and mud calks.

I think that was the early 90's.

[slewis]

Mike,

You should be able to archive my post on pace advantage where I posted each years data.

It's similar to the report I provide several NY trainers who were vocally against the silly rule change.... with one difference.

In the report I provided them, I included the names of each and every horse that raced on the dirt at NYRA in that calander year, so the report was many pages LONG.

[lamboguy]

i have never seen such a rash of bow tendons, i am not sure if its atributed to poor blacksmith or lack of clipping or straight pasterns or toe grabs.

[Saratoga_Mike]

i have never seen such a rash of bow tendons, i am not sure if its atributed to poor blacksmith or lack of clipping or straight pasterns or toe grabs.

When? Where?

[lamboguy]

i am not blaming the track or its surface for them, i had one in deleware, i have heard of plenty in kentucky and all over the place. all you can do is treat them and drop them. i know of a few that are win machines with 2 bows. i know trainers that train nothing but horses that have bows. the best way to treat them is to lace them and give them a year off to heal properly the way mr. voss and shephard do it. there are plenty of jumpers that have bows as well.

[slewis]

i am not blaming the track or its surface for them, i had one in deleware, i have heard of plenty in kentucky and all over the place. all you can do is treat them and drop them. i know of a few that are win machines with 2 bows. i know trainers that train nothing but horses that have bows. the best way to treat them is to lace them and give them a year off to heal properly the way mr. voss and shephard do it. there are plenty of jumpers that have bows as well.


lambo....

Who's allowed to use toe grabs these days?

And if your referring to the tiny ones that the "NTRA" has agreed to now allow because the trainers at Delaware put up a tizzy, I'm gonna laugh.

Not laugh at you, but with you.......after you admit that those things are so small they are virtually meaningless...I mean what, 2 mm's?

[Rico8812]

I know it may be blasphamy, but the Phipps family (Ogden I believe) was the one who said that there was no need for nyra to run OTB back in the 70's. He thought they would only last a few years. So indirectly he is to blame for the piss poor state of NY Racing.

[the little guy]

I know it may be blasphamy, but the Phipps family (Ogden I believe) was the one who said that there was no need for nyra to run OTB back in the 70's. He thought they would only last a few years. So indirectly he is to blame for the piss poor state of NY Racing.


Actually, this is not correct.

[PaceAdvantage]

My database shows very very sloppy tracks are extremely dangerous..and shoes have nothing to do with it.

It's like the old hard astroturf for football players....no cushion.The irony of the following was brought to my attention via PM:

http://drf.com/news/ryans-luck-can-turn-musket-man-cigar-mile

“He actually got chopped into pretty good from behind on the first turn, lost his momentum a little bit,” Ryan said. “He got hit from the top of his hock all the way down. The vet said, ‘You got lucky, if we [allowed] toe grabs you’d be in a little trouble.’ ”

Ryan meant that if the horse who hit Musket Man was permitted to wear toe grabs, Musket Man could have suffered serious injuries. As it was, Ryan said he felt Musket Man came out of the Breeders’ Cup in good order. On Tuesday, Ryan said Musket Man blew out three furlongs in 36.40 seconds at Monmouth Park.Considering slewis' public view on toe grabs so eloquently expressed here, and his connection to Musket Man, I can only imagine what he is thinking when he reads this...

[Cardus]

So much for getting back to handicapping races, PA, right?

[PaceAdvantage]

So much for getting back to handicapping races, PA, right?huh?

[Cardus]

huh?

Two days ago, you posted that you were looking forward to getting back to handicapping races (during a Zenyatta thread that had nothing to do with handicapping races).

The next day (Sunday, I think) you were knee-deep in the "Pricci" thread. I asked you how it (getting back to handicapping) was working out.

No remember?

[PaceAdvantage]

I know exactly what you are referring to...just not sure why you are referring to it...unless you took it to mean I would never post in any other topic again...or you're just being a wise ass... :lol:

[Cardus]

I know exactly what you are referring to...just not sure why you are referring to it...unless you took it to mean I would never post in any other topic again...or you're just being a wise ass... :lol:

I didn't know that you knew to what I was referring when you gave it the Vic Stauffer "huh" response; you threw me for a loop there.

I'm never a wise ass, as you know.

[PaceAdvantage]

I didn't know that you knew to what I was referring when you gave it the Vic Stauffer "huh" response; you threw me for a loop there.

I'm never a wise ass, as you know.You threw me for a loop as well...all I wanted was to get slewis' reaction to this article.

[slewis]

The irony of the following was brought to my attention via PM:

http://drf.com/news/ryans-luck-can-turn-musket-man-cigar-mile

Considering slewis' public view on toe grabs so eloquently expressed here, and his connection to Musket Man, I can only imagine what he is thinking when he reads this...

What do you think I'm thinking? Do you think I'm thinking "thank god, Phipps and Casner were right"?

How ridiculous. Football players rely on spikes to cut and turn when they play.
How many NFL players do you think have had fingers, hands and other bones broken when accidently stepped on?

Hockey players have had slashes and gashes from skate blades as sharp as razors.

When a horse clips heels, anything can happen. That's horseracing, and the brilliant vet who made this statement has no idea of what part of the foot hit what and caused whatever damage. It's conjecture. Throw in the fact that Derek Ryan talks a lot of BS to get press and there you have it.

If we need to make rules for the rare occurance when horses clip or go down, we might as well end this stupid sport and put a few thousand more VLT's at Aqueduct.
The state would be a whole lot better off financially for sure.

[PaceAdvantage]

What do you think I'm thinking? Do you think I'm thinking "thank god, Phipps and Casner were right"?No, not at all. Just thought it was all kind of freaky to read something like that considering your well known position on toe grabs and the like, and your connection to Musket Man. I was simply curious to hear your feedback. Nothing more, nothing less.

[slewis]

No, not at all. Just thought it was all kind of freaky to read something like that considering your well known position on toe grabs and the like, and your connection to Musket Man. I was simply curious to hear your feedback. Nothing more, nothing less.

PA, just keep this mind regarding this subject:


Since the implementation of this frivolous and agenda driven rule, I've been told by a very high source in this industry (find me at the big A and I'll tell you who it is) that NYRA and other tracks have been keeping mortality and injury stats to provide the industry with a picture of injuries, frequency, etc.

Those numbers from what he tells me have been absolutely FLAT.

Had it been the contrary, the phony NTRA (as well as NYRA) would be headlining press releases in The Bloodhorse and other media with stories like.. "Safety alliance new rules saves horses" "Breakdowns down an average of blah blah percent since NTRA rules implemented".

Maybe they should consult Susan Stover on how to "fudge" the numbers.:lol:

[turfbar]

It's no secret that there was a period of time when shoe changes offered unique betting opportunites. Back in the early 90's, there were several huge bettors who used shoe changes as a serious betting angle. I saw it for my own eyes, sometimes in disbelief, especially when a 12-1 shot would win.

Word slowly crept it's way to the press, and the NY racing press DEMANDED that NYRA announce horses wearing quarter inch bends and mud calks.

I think that was the early 90's.

If i'm not mistaken wasn't that the reason for all of Oscar Barrera success as well as Peter Ferriola.

Thinking Shift de Gears

[firstoffclaim]

Isn't Oaklawn allowing enhanced toe grabs, lets see if they announce them

[lamboguy]

Isn't Oaklawn allowing enhanced toe grabs, lets see if they announce them
i heard they are allowing them. and others are going to go back and allow them. i have always thought that slewis had proof positive facts reguarding the subject. they must have seen his post's along with complaints from almost all the horsemen that i know to make them change back