Del Mar Mega Pick-6 Carryover: $1,597,470

[andymays]

Triple Extra Large

[Rook]

Cal racing is DEAD to me.

[Gapfire]

Seems to me that they were grooming the track today to create this carryover.

[thaskalos]

I wonder...would it be so bad if we played one more day?

One more for the road...so to speak...:)

[andymays]

I wonder...would it be so bad if we played one more day?

One more for the road...so to speak...:)

Nothing is starting for a couple of months or more.

[Charlie D]

Players are their own worst enemy. Why?? because they keep playing.

Del Mar???

[thaskalos]

Players are their own worst enemy.
Whose quote is this? It seems familiar...:)

[andymays]

Players are their own worst enemy. Why?? because they keep playing.

Del Mar???

Charlie a person would have to be pretty damn stupid not to play into this pick 6 if you normally play there.

Do me a favor and put the dead crap on the other threads that deal with other states with high takeout. Be consistent. ;)

[positive4th]

Charlie a person would have to be pretty damn stupid not to play into this pick 6 if you normally play there.

Do me a favor and put the dead crap on the other threads that deal with other states with high takeout. Be consistent. ;)


If you don't play into this Pick 6, you hate money. That's all there is to it.

[andymays]

If you don't play into this Pick 6, you hate money. That's all there is to it.

Ya think? It's a no brainer for people who normally play there.

[positive4th]

Ya think? It's a no brainer for people who normally play there.

Which I do.............the trick will be getting a reasonable ticket together, if you look at that sequence, its significantly tougher than today IMO

[andymays]

Which I do.............the trick will be getting a reasonable ticket together, if you look at that sequence, its significantly tougher than today IMO

Even if you put in a $2 ticket it's all good.

I don't play big tickets anymore but I'm sure I will put something in and be partners on a few.

You have to single some prices to have a shot at a big number.

[Charlie D]

Charlie a person would have to be pretty damn stupid not to play into this pick 6 if you normally play there.

Do me a favor and put the dead crap on the other threads that deal with other states with high takeout. Be consistent. ;)



The people playing, keep the people in charge thinking, we can get away with raising take.


And i'll do you the favour of removing dead crap alltogether.

[andymays]

The people playing, keep the people in charge thinking, we can get away with raising take.


And i'll do you the favour of removing dead crap alltogether.

Until someone calls for something and until they actually raise the take then there are plenty of tracks with higher takeout.

[thaskalos]

The people playing, keep the people in charge thinking, we can get away with raising take.


And i'll do you the favour of removing dead crap alltogether.Our "boycott California" slogan might need to be revised.

"BOYCOTT CALIFORNIA, EXCEPT FOR PICK-6 CARRYOVER DAYS."

Whoever said that we horseplayers have no resolve?

[andymays]

Our "boycott California" slogan might need to be revised.

"BOYCOTT CALIFORNIA, EXCEPT FOR PICK-6 CARRYOVER DAYS."

Whoever said that we horseplayers have no resolve?

Is there a boycott?

[thaskalos]

Is there a boycott?There should be. Effective immediately!

"CALIFORNIA RACING IS DEAD TO US."

Is this only rhetoric?

[andymays]

There should be. Effective immediately!

"CALIFORNIA IS DEAD TO US."

Is this only rhetoric?

Since we are going down this road please explain why we should boycott California and not other tracks. I know the answer and I'm ready if one is called but I'd like to know if you know.

[thaskalos]

Since we are going down this road please explain why we should boycott California and not other tracks. I know the answer and I'm ready if one is called but I'd like to know if you know.Andy, why the patronizing tone?

You say that you "know the answer". Has it occurred to you that you might be wrong?

I know the answer too, and I think that MY answer is different than yours.

[andymays]

Andy, why the patronizing tone?
You say that you "know the answer". Has it occured to you that you might be wrong?

I know the answer too, and I think that it's different than yours.

Let me see. I start a thread about a carryover and just because it's in California people think it's cool to put up the Dead shit. If it's the new policy of the board to go into a thread and throw that out every time California is mentioned then I'll abide by it. But I don't think that's the case.

And no it hasn't occurred to me that I am wrong because I follow it and deal with it every day out here. I don't expect you to know that but are you at least getting why I might not appreciate someone hijacking a thread about a carryover in California?

[thaskalos]

Let me see. I start a thread about a carryover and just because it's in California people think it's cool to put up the Dead shit. If it's the new policy of the board to go into a thread and throw that out every time California is mentioned then I'll abide by it. But I don't think that's the case.

And no it hasn't occurred to me that I am wrong because I follow it and deal with it every day out here. I don't expect you to know that but are you at least getting why I might not appreciate someone hijacking a thread about a carryover in California?I apologize for hijacking the thread...it was never my intention.

I thought that we agreed last night, that we would respond in this way in ALL California threads, as a form of protest.

If I misunderstood, I stand corrected.

[Rook]

Any horseplayer defending California tracks when they are about to raise the takeout by is probably the sort of guy who would stick up for his wife when he found out she was cheating on him. It's a pathetic sight to see.

When someone punches you in the nose, you punch back. You don't get the Stockholm syndrome.

[andymays]

I apologize for hijacking the thread...it was never my intention.

I thought that we agreed last night, that we would respond in this way in ALL California threads, as a form of protest.

If I misunderstood, I stand corrected.

It's not a huge deal. The apology isn't necessary at all.

I know some people thought it was a good idea but it's a bad idea and here's why:

Right now in California there are quite a few Racing Officials, Owners, and Trainers who don't think raising the take is a good idea. Just about all the radio show hosts out here are against raising the takeout.

Nothing will have the effect of losing their support than if they percieve that California is being treated unfairly by people that just want to bash California. Nobody outside of rwwupl has fought these bastard that are raising the take more than me. I do it just about every day and I have a pretty good idea of what will sell and what won't.

It's important to fight this thing the right way and that means not giving them any excuse to turn the tables on us. The guys that are doing this in California are no dummies and they almost always get what they want. This time however there is a real shot to change things for the better and they are nervous about it.

The apology isn't necessary at all. I'm the guy that's on edge over this stuff. It's hard to explain but believe me nobody wants to beat their asses more than me.

[Charlie D]

All the best with the Fight Andy.

[andymays]

Any horseplayer defending California tracks when they are about to raise the takeout by is probably the sort of guy who would stick up for his wife when he found out she was cheating on him. It's a pathetic sight to see.

When someone punches you in the nose, you punch back. You don't get the Stockholm syndrome.

Just when I thought it couldn't get any worse you say something like this.

Do you have any clue? Do you know anything you are talking about?

Now you choose to throw peoples families into your bullshit. WTF?

[Rook]

Do you have any clue? Do you know anything you are talking about?

Now you choose to throw peoples families into your bullshit. WTF?

Yes, I know what I'm talking about but I have no idea what you are referring to. Whose family have I discussed? WTF, yourself

[andymays]

Yes, I know what I'm talking about but I have no idea what you are referring to. Whose family have I discussed? WTF, yourself

Hey rook who the hell do you think your bullshitting here. You came up with a cute slogan and you think it's cool to hijack a thread because you think you might be holding the high moral ground right. You seem to think you know what sort of guy I am so let me hear it. Get on with it.

[andymays]

Good night everyone. Everyone should sleep well now that we know Rook will always be there to hold people like me accountable. ;)

[Stillriledup]

:rolleyes:

If you're good at bingo you have a shot at this place.


They turned horse racing into the lottery....so, we have ANOTHER state lottery.

[Rook]

You seem to think you know what sort of guy I am so let me hear it. Get on with it.
The only thing I know about you Andy is that you have a crusade against polytrack. I respect that and I have never got involved in any of your threads because I am neutral on the subject. My ROI on poly is virtually identical to dirt and turf.

My crusade is against takeout increases because that has an obvious negative effect on my family's income, especially if California is the first of many.

[PaceAdvantage]

Cal racing is DEAD to me.You see the nonsense this is starting to create around here?

I respect you and your opinion greatly and the contributions you have made over the years, but I can't allow this "California is dead to me" spam to continue being posted on every thread about California racing.

Why?

Because:

a) whether you know it or not, you are punishing ME and my site by doing so, and I don't think that's what your goal is here

2) It's spam and it's an absolute turn off in this type of environment.

Any more of this "California is dead to me" spam or any derivatives thereof will be deleted on sight from here on out.

[Speed Figure]

I hate to say it, but I'll had zero problems with the races at Del Mar and it's been a great meet to me.

[Hajck Hillstrom]

Darn, just when I thought I wouldn't have to post because of a cause. :bang:

... and just when I had the time. :cool:

[bigmack]

... and just when I had the time. :cool:
:lol:

Long time. "Hur mår du?

[Rook]

You see the nonsense this is starting to create around here?...
Any more of this "California is dead to me" spam or any derivatives thereof will be deleted on sight from here on out.

This is hardly nonsense. "If this California Is Dead to Me" movement had your support, it would be a potent force. Go reread the thread, before you made your opposition known, 15 members expressed support and only one didn't like the idea.

If you hadn't stepped in to kill it, there likely would have been dozens and dozens of more people lined up to send California a strong message and very few trying to defend their boneheaded action. This is the exact opposite of spam. It is a unifying message for a group that is rarely going in one direction.


a) whether you know it or not, you are punishing ME and my site by doing so, and I don't think that's what your goal is here

Of course I don't want to hurt you in any way and that is the complete opposite of my goal. I want Pace Advantage to be a leader in fighting takeout increases. Lower takeout is the number one issue for so many horseplayers and this is my idea on how to achieve it given the present circumstances. If you have a better approach, we will gladly follow your lead.

[Greyfox]

I hate to say it, but I'll had zero problems with the races at Del Mar and it's been a great meet to me.

:ThmbUp: Ditto.
I'm glad to see your good fortune Speed Figure and agree with you.
Obviously when the Pick 6 is that high, longshots have to be coming in, now and then.
That's good news if you know how and when to play them.
Learn to understand who can win on today's surface, the shape of the race, and you can win at Del Mar. Logical Longshots are flying in.
Today's lone speed runner in Race 7 at 9-1 was a "gimmee."
To get the Pick 6 would be nice.
Tomorrow it could be worth over $ 4 million.
Those posters here who are the apparent disciples of the guy who is getting free ads here on "How to Win the Pick 6" will be much farther ahead if they forget that b.s. and put their $ 32 towards logical overlays. Fact.

[PaceAdvantage]

This is hardly nonsense.By nonsense, I of course am solely referring to the actual posting of "California is dead to me" in every non-negative thread about Cali. racing. I am not referring to the motives behind such action (bringing about an end to the flawed mentality of takeout increase), which are to be commended.

What you will be doing for the most part, is not educating folks about California and the negative impact of what is about to go down out there, but pissing them off and turning them away from this website altogether.

I find this to be a wholly unproductive idea, and can't for the life of me figure out why anyone would think the opposite.

Who the hell wants to read "California is dead to me" 5-10 times a day or more? Instead of an inspiration, it is a complete turn off. It is essentially spam. It may be more nobler than your everyday spam, but spam it is nonetheless. And spam is the number one killer of any message board.

Now, I'm just talking about PaceAdvantage.com here...I couldn't care less what goes on at other blogs and racing message boards...

[bigmack]

If you have a better approach, we will gladly follow your lead.
R - You're a well respected cat around these parts but the declaration of a welcoming demise to CA racing in a forum such as this is far from effectual and postures in a negative light to a host of an industry within a state for PA and this site.

I was a short-hair away from interjecting an objection to the spirit of the the "Dead to Me" thread.

It's best to leave this site out of a very strong position in this confounding & contentious affair.

[Rook]

I find this to be a wholly unproductive idea, and can't for the life of me figure out why anyone would think the opposite....
The clear majority of us think the opposite (put it to a vote if you don't think so) because we are mad as hell and want to do something about it. What other alternative do we have? We can't picket the gates.

For two years, my avatar was Boycott WEG (Woodbine) and Tracknet. It was a little gesture but I felt good about doing something rather than nothing. It took a few years but I got what I wanted. Tracknet is dead and Woodbine is no longer an anti-rebate track. I've gone from betting $0 on WO to $206,377 thus far in 2010.

I sure as hell don't want to see California racing die but I do want them to be punished for being stupid enough to raise prices when business is declining.

I opened up my Charts 2006 and Charts 2010 databases and ran WPS pool size queries. GG's handle is 67.8% of what it once was, Hol: 74.9%, SA: 77.6% and DMR: 83.6%. These clowns need every bit of help they can get running their business.

[PaceAdvantage]

The clear majority of us think the opposite (put it to a vote if you don't think so) because we are mad as hell and want to do something about it. What other alternative do we have? We can't picket the gates.Just to be clear, you and I are both talking about the actual posting of "California is dead to me" over and over again on this message board in threads related to anything "non-negative" about Cali. racing. Have I gotten that correct? I have to make sure we are on the same page about this, because I am sensing some miscommunication here.

With that said, why in the world would you think that I would be supportive of such a thing? What good is that going to do exactly? How is that NOT going to drive people AWAY from this website?

You can't picket the gates? Why the hell not?

Instead, you are essentially going to picket the message board that gave birth to HANA and continues to provide a highly visible venue for you to discuss your frustrations and outrage in a productive (non-spamlike) manner. That doesn't make one lick of sense to me.

I would think that this type of guerrilla tactic, if employed anywhere, would have much greater impact at a blog or message board that is actually connected to one of the California tracks in question...do you not agree?

[Rook]

Just to be clear, you and I are both talking about the actual posting of "California is dead to me" over and over again on this message board ... I have to make sure we are on the same page about this, because I am sensing some miscommunication here.


No, there is no miscommunication. My idea had tremendous support (15 to 1) until you came and killed it. People aren't going to go against you, but if you had let them do what they wanted, there would have been loads of people happy to scan the message board waiting to tell those promoting California racing what they thought of their overpriced product.

I am not the only one that would like to do something with my anger towards those who are destroying the sport. The competition of sports betting and poker is absolutely dominating racing mainly because their takeouts are just a fraction of what horseplayers face.

HANA has given no indication that they are going to take action. I was hoping we could do something here at PA.


With that said, why in the world would you think that I would be supportive of such a thing?
I didn't think of you when I wrote my call to arms and I apologize for that oversight.


What good is that going to do exactly?
It remains to be seen. I do know that doing nothing does no good and I do know that my Boycott Woodbine avatar made me feel warm inside and maybe played some tiny sliver of a role in getting Woodbine to change from being the most hostile to rebates track to being one of the most generous.


How is that NOT going to drive people AWAY from this website?
If your traffic was being negatively affected, of course we would have swiftly ended our campaign. People on this board want you to succeed just like we want the industry to prosper. Unfortunately, the industry is heading off a cliff and the California takeout increase is exhibit A on why that is the case.

[carlonr]

Seems to me that they were grooming the track today to create this carryover.

Actually it was a turf race that had the biggest impact on the pick 6 today. Odds-on favorite ran out! Contrary to the belief of some, Synthetics are not the cause of everything.

[Stillriledup]

Actually it was a turf race that had the biggest impact on the pick 6 today. Odds-on favorite ran out! Contrary to the belief of some, Synthetics are not the cause of everything.

A lot of these short favorites are getting crushed because lots of trainers are rushing back horses too quick to get that ONE MORE race at DMR before it closes. TONS of horses in the next few days are coming back too quick, i believe that's a factor in great looking (on paper) horses who are just bouncing to the moon.

[andymays]

No, there is no miscommunication. My idea had tremendous support (15 to 1) until you came and killed it. People aren't going to go against you, but if you had let them do what they wanted, there would have been loads of people happy to scan the message board waiting to tell those promoting California racing what they thought of their overpriced product.

I am not the only one that would like to do something with my anger towards those who are destroying the sport. The competition of sports betting and poker is absolutely dominating racing mainly because their takeouts are just a fraction of what horseplayers face.

HANA has given no indication that they are going to take action. I was hoping we could do something here at PA.


I didn't think of you when I wrote my call to arms and I apologize for that oversight.


It remains to be seen. I do know that doing nothing does no good and I do know that my Boycott Woodbine avatar made me feel warm inside and maybe played some tiny sliver of a role in getting Woodbine to change from being the most hostile to rebates track to being one of the most generous.


If your traffic was being negatively affected, of course we would have swiftly ended our campaign. People on this board want you to succeed just like we want the industry to prosper. Unfortunately, the industry is heading off a cliff and the California takeout increase is exhibit A on why that is the case.

The deal is that you're misdirecting your fire.

I'm one of a few guys working on this issue on a daily basis but you decide that I am the one you want to go after. Does that make any sense at all?

It's easy to find the email addresses of the people and organizations that are supporting the increase in takeout if you want to direct your fire at the people who are responsible.

Giving me a hard time is about as "Wrong Way Corrigan" as it gets.

Let's move on!

[Rook]

The deal is that you're misdirecting your fire.

I'm one of a few guys working on this issue on a daily basis but you decide that I am the one you want to go after. Does that make any sense at all?

Take a look at my posts over the years. When I go after someone I hit the Quote button rather than Reply. I wasn't going after you. I was making a general comment about people who are sticking up for the California tracks while they are screwing the players and themselves in the long run.

Since you started this thread promoting the Pick 6, I can see why you felt you are in the cross hairs, but I have no vendetta against you. I just think it is in poor taste to be boosting California at this time and you should have expected some negative reaction while people are so angry.


It's easy to find the email addresses of the people and organizations that are supporting the increase in takeout if you want to direct your fire at the people who are responsible.

I'm sure it is. I'm also sure that they have received dozens if not hundreds of complaints and it has not had any effect this far. I didn't want my name merely added to the pile. I wanted to do something different. Getting the most prominent handicapping board squarely against them is definitely different.

[andymays]

Take a look at my posts over the years. When I go after someone I hit the Quote button rather than Reply. I wasn't going after you. I was making a general comment about people who are sticking up for the California tracks while they are screwing the players and themselves in the long run.

Since you started this thread promoting the Pick 6, I can see why you felt you are in the cross hairs, but I have no vendetta against you. I just think it is in poor taste to be boosting California at this time and you should have expected some negative reaction while people are so angry.


I'm sure it is. I'm also sure that they have received dozens if not hundreds of complaints and it has not had any effect this far. I didn't want my name merely added to the pile. I wanted to do something different. Getting the most prominent handicapping board squarely against them is definitely different.

Let's forget about it and move on. If you say you had good intentions I'll accept that. :ThmbUp:

[andymays]

It's all about beating the favorites. Here are the morning line favorites.

5th #7 Movie Dutey is 3-1 and # 10 Can't Topper is the 7-2 second choice. I have a feeling the #10 will go favored. I'm throwing them both out.

6th #9 May Day Rose is 9-5 and draws a good post position. Blinkers Off.

7th #1 Dream to Dream is 3-1. On a side note watch the video on Salty Fries last race. Only one short work since is a concern.

8th #2 Wickedly Perfect is 3-1.

9th #1 Gallatin's Run is 3-1

10th #8 Snovember is 5-2.

[Bruddah]

No, there is no miscommunication. My idea had tremendous support (15 to 1) until you came and killed it. People aren't going to go against you, but if you had let them do what they wanted, there would have been loads of people happy to scan the message board waiting to tell those promoting California racing what they thought of their overpriced product.

Rook, I support your attempt to organize this protest 120%. Notice my avatar, it's beeen there from day one. It's practically the only approach Bettors have remaining to voice their feelings. This message (unity) needs to be adopted by all who will spend even 10 cents at the betting windows.

However, we who protest and would unite must respect the rights of the "owner/ moderator" of this forum. It's his business/ toy and we must play by his rules. It makes no difference if our motives are correct and noble. He/ PA sets the rules on the playground.

My fingers resist my natural impulses as I type this reply, but we must comply to PA's wishes. No matter if we are certain he is ill advised or just plain wrong headed.

[Bruiser1]

:ThmbUp: Ditto.
I'm glad to see your good fortune Speed Figure and agree with you.
Obviously when the Pick 6 is that high, longshots have to be coming in, now and then.
That's good news if you know how and when to play them.
Learn to understand who can win on today's surface, the shape of the race, and you can win at Del Mar. Logical Longshots are flying in.
Today's lone speed runner in Race 7 at 9-1 was a "gimmee."
To get the Pick 6 would be nice.
Tomorrow it could be worth over $ 4 million.
Those posters here who are the apparent disciples of the guy who is getting free ads here on "How to Win the Pick 6" will be much farther ahead if they forget that b.s. and put their $ 32 towards logical overlays. Fact.


FYI...One of the analysts I heard last night is of the opinion this pool could reach $7 Million.

[andymays]

FYI...One of the analysts I heard last night is of the opinion this pool could reach $7 Million.

I'm going with between 5 and 6 million bucks.

They have ZZ Top today.

ZZ TOP INFIELD CONCERT & BEER FEST

http://www.dmtc.com/season/events/index.php?id=41

[sally]

I count about 6 posts that actually deal with the pick 6...a little more insight would be appreciated guys...

for a very small ticket...:)

[andymays]

I count about 6 posts that actually deal with the pick 6...a little more insight would be appreciated guys...

for a very small ticket...:)

You noticed that did ya? ;)

Nextdoorneighbor in the 9th is working real well. Has been off since March.

[ceejay]

I count about 6 posts that actually deal with the pick 6...a little more insight would be appreciated guys...

for a very small ticket...:)
my probable singles, about 4 hours out:
race 8 – :12:
race 9 – :2:

[toetoe]

:lol:

Long time. "Hur mår du?



Mack,

You're carrion, carrion to me.

[JustRalph]

I thought the cal is dead to me meant we were proclaiming we were not going to play ca tracks

I guess I read it wrong

[andymays]

If a moderator wants to delete this thread then as the guy who started it's fine with me.

It's screwed up now anyway.

[PaceAdvantage]

No matter if we are certain he is ill advised or just plain wrong headed.[/B]Wow....I'm sure when you were running your board, you would have been perfectly happy with folks typing endless "California is dead to me" replies on any thread that had to do with California...

Whatever...no wonder nothing ever gets done in favor of the player.

Totally misdirected and ineffective...

[Rook]

Totally misdirected and ineffective...
When 15 out of 16 responders are in favor of an idea, you can hardly call it misdirected. It was right on target. Very few proposals get that kind of support from horseplayers.

As far as being ineffective, that is hardly fair to assume since you killed it in its first day. If 90% of this board get solidly behind a movement, I think it would be very effective. I guess it is now up to HANA to represent us.

[Greyfox]

Totally misdirected and ineffective...

:ThmbUp: Agreed. Reading that over and over would be damned annoying for those of us who play there.

In the meanwhile, after Race 9 would someone report in who they are "alive to"
and we'll pull for your Pick.

[Greyfox]

When 15 out of 16 responders are in favor of an idea, you can hardly call it misdirected. It was right on target. .

It wasn't on target for this thread. I can understand why Andy is peeved.

[Greyfox]

After 3 races, there are 101,218 tickets left with winning combinations.

[PaceAdvantage]

When 15 out of 16 responders are in favor of an idea, you can hardly call it misdirected. It was right on target. Very few proposals get that kind of support from horseplayers.It's misdirected in that it will SCREW UP my message board. Go screw up a message board DIRECTLY CONNECTED to a California track. They are out there.

Don't you feel THAT would be better directed?

I can't for the life of me understand why this very important point continues to elude you.

I'm NOT the one pushing for the takeout increase nor am I connected to any entity that IS pushing for the takeout increase, yet you're going to punish me?

[andymays]

It's misdirected in that it will SCREW UP my message board. Go screw up a message board DIRECTLY CONNECTED to a California track. They are out there.

Don't you feel THAT would be better directed?

I can't for the life of me understand why this very important point continues to elude you.

I'm NOT the one pushing for the takeout increase nor am I connected to any entity that IS pushing for the takeout increase, yet you're going to punish me?

C'mon PA. You know you're a bad guy and so am I. :lol:

Maybe you ought to post the hate mail from Dereck Newcastle. :lol:

[Rook]

It's misdirected in that it will SCREW UP my message board. Go screw up a message board DIRECTLY CONNECTED to a California track. They are out there.

Don't you feel THAT would be better directed?

Of course not. This is the only board I ever post at. If I went somewhere else, I would be a newbie with no credibility whatsoever. Now that would be misdirected and ineffective!


I'm NOT the one pushing for the takeout increase nor am I connected to any entity that IS pushing for the takeout increase, yet you're going to punish me?
I've stated several times I am not interested in hurting you. This is your board and you can do what you like with it. I respect your right of control but don't tell me my idea is misdirected and not effective when it wasn't even given a chance to succeed. I asked you several posts ago if you had a better solution and if you do many of us would truly love to hear it.

[andymays]

Of course not. This is the only board I ever post at. If I went somewhere else, I would be a newbie with no credibility whatsoever. Now that would be misdirected and ineffective!


I've stated several times I am not interested in hurting you. This is your board and you can do what you like with it. I respect your right of control but don't tell me my idea is misdirected and not effective when it wasn't even given a chance to succeed. I asked you several posts ago if you had a better solution and if you do many of us would truly love to hear it.

Rook, PA supports lower takeout and has sent emails himself to the CHRB. He participates in stuff he feels will help Horseplayers.

You're totally missing the mark on this one.

[PaceAdvantage]

Rook, I will contact you further via PM, which is something I think should have been done in the first place before this idea was floated publicly.

[Greyfox]

The Pick 6 paid $ 35,533 and change. (Thankfully some private mailing is going on.)

[Tom]

Originally Posted by Rook
When 15 out of 16 responders are in favor of an idea, you can hardly call it misdirected. It was right on target. Very few proposals get that kind of support from horseplayers.


I'd call it stupid. If you think this kindergarten stuff will have any effect on Delmar betting you're nuts. You might as well your butt cheeks and go moon the TVG cameras in the paddock.

[andymays]

Here's a thought - why don't you California bashers start up your own board and save the world. A few dozen less California threads here every week would be welcome. BTW, I played Delmar today......good racing and I made money. Think I'll play Sunday, too.

Tom, you and I are on the same side on this one. :bang:

WTF?

[surfdog89]

Great Point Tom....... why all the hate for California tracks...........

[Tom]

Tom, you and I are on the same side on this one. :bang:

WTF?

Yes, you're right. I read your post backwards. :blush:
I thought you said PA was off base.
I deleted the post.

My apologies.
You can call me a name if you like.:bang:

[andymays]

Yes, you're right. I read your post backwards. :blush:
I thought you said PA was off base.

My apologies.
You can call me a name if you like.:bang:

It's Ok. I've been getting bricks thrown at my head all weekend. A couple of them connected. On top of that I singled the #6 in the first leg at 18-1. He got a weak ride and should have won.

[Stillriledup]

PA i don't get why you care if posters here want to talk bad about Calif racing and suggest a boycott. I don't see any downside, i mean, what's the difference?

[JustRalph]

I'd call it stupid. If you think this kindergarten stuff will have any effect on Delmar betting you're nuts. You might as well your butt cheeks and go moon the TVG cameras in the paddock.

Schrupp already did that circa 2002

[tampahorseplayer]

Do you really think posting a few lines of text in a horse racing forum is going to make a difference at all to the handle? If your so against cal racing, dont play it, tell others at the otb and such about the rate increase, those who dont know about it. Maybe make a website about how your unpleased with it to get exposure. But this isnt a california racing website, and some may just want to talk about selections and such without having to go through pages of threads of people repeating the same 3 lines. Everyone who views this board knows about the increase so whats the point? Some here may like it, even with the rate increase and all your doing is clogging up threads. While the rate increase may suck, if I see a race that I think I can make $$ on, 3 or 4 extra % in rake isnt going to stop me from making $$.

[SharpCat]

Was anyone watching TVG before the last leg. Todd Schrupp and a couple of his firends pooled there money to play a pick six ticket. They were alive to the 4and 8 in the final leg. Turns out Todd was the one who punched the pick six ticket. Well they were supposed to have the 4 and 7 in the final leg, but he punched the 8 instead. After the 7 crossed the finish line it was several seconds of pure silence. All Todd could say was always make sure to check your tickets. Absolutely brilliant.

[Relwob Owner]

Was anyone watching TVG before the last leg. Todd Schrupp and a couple of his firends pooled there money to play a pick six ticket. They were alive to the 4and 8 in the final leg. Turns out Todd was the one who punched the pick six ticket. Well they were supposed to have the 4 and 7 in the final leg, but he punched the 8 instead. After the 7 crossed the finish line it was several seconds of pure silence. All Todd could say was always make sure to check your tickets. Absolutely brilliant.




Woah......................

[Charlie D]

if I see a race that I think I can make $ on, 3 or 4 extra % in rake isnt going to stop me from making $.




And therein lies the problem that faces anyone trying to get take out reduced.

The racing leaders know bettors will do this, so they slap on another 2/3%, then when thats not bringing enough in for purses, they 'll slap on another 2/3%.

Not long before rake is 25%, 30% or maybe even higher.

[JustRalph]

And therein lies the problem that faces anyone trying to get take out reduced.

The racing leaders know bettors will do this, so they slap on another 2/3%, then when thats not bringing enough in for purses, they 'll slap on another 2/3%.

Not long before rake is 25%, 30% or maybe even higher.

ye ole slippery slope

[Charlie D]

ye ole slippery slope

Yep!!!

[tampahorseplayer]

Its just something you have to keep in the back of your mind. If I think takeout is high I wont play races on a regular basis aka make it my fav track. But if I see an exploit such as a minus show pool opportunity or a giant carryover like today, its not going to sway me away. Think of it this way, horse racing is in a huge decline and yet they STILL raised the takeout. So those who post cal racing is dead, do you think that they will listen to you posting on a message board (and not even one related to call racing) and a lightbulb will go off? Doubt it. There is other ways to let people know about the takeout raise and this isnt one of them. For starters tell people who havent a clue, a majority of players dont even know the takeouts rates, but id say nearly 100% of posters here do, so preaching to the choir does nothing.

[Charlie D]

But you are supporting them by playing where Take is 3/4% higher. They love you and thank you for giving your hard earned away.

You wouldn't walk in a store and give $1.25 for an item that costs $1.00 at the store next door would you??

[Charlie D]

These guys http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=60154 have worked hard for you on the Track ratings. Pay them back by ONLY playing where the Take is lowest.

If everyone did this, it would force the store charging $1.25 to compete with the $1.00 store.

[Tom]

Aren't there higher than what California wants to go to? That's what I am told. Why not them?

If you want to use the store analogy, there is a reason why things are cheaper at Wal Mart than they are at Sacks 5th Avenue. All tracks and quality of racing is not equal.

When I make a bet, I know the odds ( pretty much:rolleyes:) so I know if it is worth making. I know the effects of the take when I wager.

[Charlie D]

Tom

You bet where there is the lowest take, but still object to ANY raise in take should one be proposed.


My posts above were not Cal specific.

[Rook]

The scary thing about the increase is the potential for other tracks to follow their lead. The people who run tracks like to copy what the other guys are doing. A prime example is the 10 cent super.

In 2004, every track had a $1 minimum. Like dominoes, every few weeks one track after another announced they were switching, until within a few years, the vast majority had made the change.

[Charlie D]

Only bettors can stop it with thier $$$ power and one way is to ONLY play in LOW take markets. Play Exactas at NYRA, Del, CD and avoid like the plague Exacta's at say 20%+

It's that simple.

[Charlie D]

10 Track with a Take of 19% and below on Exactas. If you can't manage on those there is something wrong. 5 tracks with 19% and below on Pick 3's, if you can't manage on them there is something wrong.


It's simple avoid 20%+

[Charlie D]

If 5 is not enough for Pick 3 players, then up to 21% and you have 11 tracks to get stuck into.

Pick 3's with a Take 22%+ avoid like the plague.

It's that simple.


Fantastic resource the HANA rankings.

[Charlie D]

Cal is raising Take on some markets, as a protest ALL Cal players switch to lowest take market for a week or so.

All it takes is bit of motivation on part of Cal players to get a message across.

[Stillriledup]

Cal is raising Take on some markets, as a protest ALL Cal players switch to lowest take market for a week or so.

All it takes is bit of motivation on part of Cal players to get a message across.

The problem is most people lose anyway and dont realize even what's going on. Most money is just money from people who don't have a vested interest in actually WINNING. Some people this stuff VERY seriously, but most do not. Its the most do not that are hurting the people who desperately want to win.

[PaceAdvantage]

PA i don't get why you care if posters here want to talk bad about Calif racing and suggest a boycott. I don't see any downside, i mean, what's the difference?Ummmmmm....that's not what we're talking about here...I suggest you read through all of this again until you get it...

[Charlie D]

The problem is most people lose anyway and dont realize even what's going on. Most money is just money from people who don't have a vested interest in actually WINNING. Some people this stuff VERY seriously, but most do not. Its the most do not that are hurting the people who desperately want to win.


The whales getting rebates are hurting others as they'll just keep playing because they get these rebates. Those playing Exacta's, Tri's, Supers, Picks where the Take is 20%+ are hurting others.


These type of people are posting on this board on a regular basis, i believe. So it may be best to look in a mirror and place the blame on the people you see.

[Shelby]

Was anyone watching TVG before the last leg. Todd Schrupp and a couple of his firends pooled there money to play a pick six ticket. They were alive to the 4and 8 in the final leg. Turns out Todd was the one who punched the pick six ticket. Well they were supposed to have the 4 and 7 in the final leg, but he punched the 8 instead. After the 7 crossed the finish line it was several seconds of pure silence. All Todd could say was always make sure to check your tickets. Absolutely brilliant.

OMG how awful!

[Shelby]

So, did anyone here hit the pick 6???

I told my husband that if there was ANOTHER carryover to today, then we would be making the 3 hour drive to the OTB to bet. I thought with Snovember getting beat that there might be a chance of that happening.

[Zman179]

Was anyone watching TVG before the last leg. Todd Schrupp and a couple of his firends pooled there money to play a pick six ticket. They were alive to the 4and 8 in the final leg. Turns out Todd was the one who punched the pick six ticket. Well they were supposed to have the 4 and 7 in the final leg, but he punched the 8 instead. After the 7 crossed the finish line it was several seconds of pure silence. All Todd could say was always make sure to check your tickets. Absolutely brilliant.

I would love to see a tape of that on Youtube.

[therussmeister]

You wouldn't walk in a store and give $1.25 for an item that costs $1.00 at the store next door would you??
The thing is, take-out is only one of the factors determining the price you get, and probably not the most important. I have the average payouts for a few tracks. Looking at trifectas, where there is a great range in take, there is no correlation between take and average price. Looking at my own wagering records, there is little correlation between take and profits.

For many years, my most profitable track, the way I calculate it (profits divided by number of races handicapped), was the one with the highest take-out.

[PaceAdvantage]

The whales getting rebates are hurting others as they'll just keep playing because they get these rebates. Those playing Exacta's, Tri's, Supers, Picks where the Take is 20%+ are hurting others.


These type of people are posting on this board on a regular basis, i believe. So it may be best to look in a mirror and place the blame on the people you see.Actually, in the case of the whales, not necessarily true. I recently have been communicating with someone whom I consider a whale and he is passionate about getting takeout lowered and is disgusted with what is happening in California. You've read his posts here...goes by the name of Rook.

Rook should be the poster boy of the lower takeout movement. After all, rebates are simply a form of lower takeout. And even though I know better, I was still shocked to see what a huge difference lower takeout (rebates) can make after discussing with Rook his performance numbers with and without the lower takeout (rebates). It's a little mind blowing and inspiring at the same time.

Think about it. Why would whales care if rebates are bringing their effective takeout down from 26% to 15% OR they are receiving NO rebates with an actual takeout rate of 15% FOR ALL? Either way, it's the same situation for the whale, is it not?

Why would they be against lowering takeout? Their situation would remain the same, PLUS the lower takeout for all would increase pool size, which can only help the whale...it's a win/win for them as far as I can see it...

[Stillriledup]

Actually, in the case of the whales, not necessarily true. I recently have been communicating with someone whom I consider a whale and he is passionate about getting takeout lowered and is disgusted with what is happening in California. You've read his posts here...goes by the name of Rook.

Rook should be the poster boy of the lower takeout movement. After all, rebates are simply a form of lower takeout. And even though I know better, I was still shocked to see what a huge difference lower takeout (rebates) can make after discussing with Rook his performance numbers with and without the lower takeout (rebates). It's a little mind blowing and inspiring at the same time.

Think about it. Why would whales care if rebates are bringing their effective takeout down from 26% to 15% OR they are receiving NO rebates with an actual takeout rate of 15% FOR ALL? Either way, it's the same situation for the whale, is it not?

Why would they be against lowering takeout? Their situation would remain the same, PLUS the lower takeout for all would increase pool size, which can only help the whale...it's a win/win for them as far as I can see it...


Its not the same situation. Whales only care about takeout raises if the raise is not given back to them in the form of a rebate. For example, if a whale is getting a 10% rebate on exactas at Santa Anita and then they raise the takeout 2 percent, the whale won't care if that entire 2 percent is given back to him and he now gets 12 percent on his exactas. But, if his rebate is only raised to 11%, he is having his own takeout raised 1 percent, which of course, is huge to his bottom line if he's betting thousands per day.

Also, rebates are better for whales than lower takeout because whales get rebates on losing bets also. With a lower takeout and no rebate, the whale gets back 0 dollars if he loses, which means he only can take advantage of the lower takeout rate on winning bets.

[PaceAdvantage]

Its not the same situation. Whales only care about takeout raises if the raise is not given back to them in the form of a rebate. For example, if a whale is getting a 10% rebate on exactas at Santa Anita and then they raise the takeout 2 percent, the whale won't care if that entire 2 percent is given back to him and he now gets 12 percent on his exactas. But, if his rebate is only raised to 11%, he is having his own takeout raised 1 percent, which of course, is huge to his bottom line if he's betting thousands per day.

Also, rebates are better for whales than lower takeout because whales get rebates on losing bets also. With a lower takeout and no rebate, the whale gets back 0 dollars if he loses, which means he only can take advantage of the lower takeout rate on winning bets.Who's to say the whale still doesn't receive a rebate on losing bets in the event of takeout being lowered? Takeout isn't going to 0 and there will likely still be wiggle room in the form of a rebate.

There are many reasons why whales do NOT want to see the takeout raised.

Big reason would be it KILLS THE GAME and their LIVELIHOOD. Another reason is it KILLS pool size.

I won't pretend to be an expert on this issue, so I will let others take up the mantel here if they so desire.

[Stillriledup]

Who's to say the whale still doesn't receive rebates along with takeout being lowered?

There are many reasons why whales do NOT want to see the takeout raised.

Big reason would be it KILLS THE GAME and their LIVELIHOOD. Another reason is it KILLS pool size.

I won't pretend to be an expert on this issue, so I will let others take up the mantel here if they so desire.

The whale still gets a rebate if the takeouts are lowered, but his rebate also gets lowered. I do agree that whales dont want takeout raised because that will make non rebated players go away and the pools will be smaller, which is bad for everyone.

[BillW]

Also, rebates are better for whales than lower takeout because whales get rebates on losing bets also. With a lower takeout and no rebate, the whale gets back 0 dollars if he loses, which means he only can take advantage of the lower takeout rate on winning bets.

Let's look at an extreme case. Let's say that "whale #1" lives in a world where he gets a 20% rebate playing into a 20% rake and "whale #2" lives in a world where he plays to a 0% rake with no rebate. Are you saying that "whale #1" would have an advantage over "whale #2" just because he gets a rebate on the losers?

I would suggest that the higher average mutuel that "whale #2" would receive due to the lower rake would make up for the difference and they would end up the same with the exception that whale #1 would have a lower pool to bet into thus possibly limiting him on the size and number of his wagers.

[sjk]

I would think it significant that your bet affects the price paid while as far as I know your rebate does not.

[Stillriledup]

Let's look at an extreme case. Let's say that "whale #1" lives in a world where he gets a 20% rebate playing into a 20% rake and "whale #2" lives in a world where he plays to a 0% rake with no rebate. Are you saying that "whale #1" would have an advantage over "whale #2" just because he gets a rebate on the losers?

I would suggest that the higher average mutuel that "whale #2" would receive due to the lower rake would make up for the difference and they would end up the same with the exception that whale #1 would have a lower pool to bet into thus possibly limiting him on the size and number of his wagers.


Lets take an extreme example and say that whale 1 and whale two only make win wagers and they only wager on horses who are exactly 99-1. Lets also say, for arguments sake, that both of them select exactly 1 winner in their next 100 wagers. They bet 2 dollars to win on 100 horses in a row and pick 1 winner.

Whale #1 is going to get 40 cents back per 2 dollar bet as a rebate and he's going to get a 200.00 win price on his one winner. Whale #1 will show a profit at the end of this series of 40 dollars. (if my math is correct)

The 64 dollar question is this. Will Whale #2's 99-1 shot rise to 119-1 if the takeout was 0%? I think it probably would at least be close.

I'm not sure this example would work if you let one whale bet into a 25% take with a 10% rebate and whale 2 bets into a 15% takeout with no rebate. I'm not in the mood now to do the math on this one, maybe its exactly the same.

[Charlie D]

There are many reasons why whales do NOT want to see the takeout raised.

Big reason would be it KILLS THE GAME and their LIVELIHOOD. Another reason is it KILLS pool size.






OK, if above is correct, then why do the whales not use thier $$$ power to influence the decision makers at places like CHRB ( a bit like horsemen chop off signals to influence decisions of others)

[Stillriledup]

OK, if above is correct, then why do the whales not use thier $$$ power to influence the decision makers at places like CHRB ( a bit like horsemen chop off signals to influence decisions of others)

If California thinks they are going to raise the signal price to the rebate shop and pass on the raise to rebate players, they have another thing coming. If those rebate players don't get close to what they're currently getting, the bets are going to drop dramatically. Rebate players aren't in the business of just handing out money to strangers for no particular reason.

[Charlie D]

Stillriledup


The Whales could withdraw $$$ now and show CHRB what may happen if they go ahead and increase Take.


Why don't they??