Steve Crist: California Board Skews Takeout tale

[andymays]

http://www.drf.com/news/california-board-skews-takeout-tale

Excerpt:

Raising the takeout always leads to lower handle and unhappy customers and is the last resort for struggling track operators. The increases that the California legislature has approved and that will become effective Dec. 26 once the bill is signed into law by the governor, who supports them, are particularly onerous despite the California Horse Racing Board’s attempt to portray them as reasonable and consistent with the rates in other states.

[pandy]

When I first started betting So. Cal in 1999, the initial attraction to me was the weather, no scratches, no mud, no off the turf, horses with regular workout patterns, etc. But I quickly realized that the lower takeout on exotics, such as the trifecta and Pick 3 was making it much easier to win there than it was in New York. Now they have taken that edge away, what fools.

[InsideThePylons-MW]

Excerpt:

Raising the takeout always leads to lower handle and unhappy customers and is the last resort for struggling track operators.


"In 1993 (or 94) when NYRA executives Kenny Noe and Steve Crist announced they were going to raise the takeout 3% it became clear to me that if I stayed in NY I probably wouldn't be able to make a living.".....Ernie Dahlman

[andymays]

"In 1993 (or 94) when NYRA executives Kenny Noe and Steve Crist announced they were going to raise the takeout 3% it became clear to me that if I stayed in NY I probably wouldn't be able to make a living.".....Ernie Dahlman

I have a feeling he's on the right side of the issue now.

[InsideThePylons-MW]

I have a feeling he's on the right side of the issue now.

How could a horseplayer, or anybody for that matter, with an IQ above 10 EVER be on the wrong side of this issue?

[Valuist]

I didn't start betting New York until 1995 but I would be extremely disappointed in Crist if he EVER wanted to raise takeout there. I'm not doubting Pylons' post; just shows how easy one can switch allegiances.

[andymays]

How could a horseplayer, or anybody for that matter, with an IQ above 10 EVER be on the wrong side of this issue?

As long as he appears to be joining the fight with this article it's good by me.

In my very limited dealings with him he has always been friendly and honest.

[rastajenk]

It was a different world back then, and he was in a different position. Maybe they could afford to lose Ernie's action back then. Who can say now what the optimum price point, or whatever it is Jeff P. calls it, was 17 years ago?

[InsideThePylons-MW]

As long as he appears to be joining the fight with this article it's good by me.

In my very limited dealings with him he has always been friendly and honest.

That's fine.

Let's look at the big picture.

The sport is dying.

Horseplayers are almost unanimous that the sport is dying due to high takeout rates.

Industry people would argue that the sport is dying because of low purses (which are caused by no growth due to high takeout) and that the biggest of bettors have left the tracks for rebate shops.

In 1993 when Crist was honcho for NYRA and raised the takeout, the overall sport of racing was considered healthy....it was NYRA, as usual, that was unhealthy. So in an attempt at a money grab, he did what all smart people would do :bang: , he raised the takeout.

Let's look at what happened......

Dahlman moved to Vegas, which was the catalyst for the inception of rebating and led to the mass exodus of big bettors from the racetracks all over the country.

Other tracks saw that NYRA raised the takeout and it didn't seem to hurt them or was reported that it didn't hurt them and they in turn made more money so across the nation others raised their takeout too.

NY and other areas that raised their takeout following NYRA's (Crist's) lead, have experienced no growth and are dead in the water (unless they get slot welfare).

When the casino boom started not too long after, racetracks were now hooked on the extra money from the raises and couldn't compete with it's new adversaries for the gambling dollar.

NYRA has a 26% takeout rate on p-3, p-4, tri and super wagers and is being used as a comparison to justify the takeout hike in CA.


So if you wanted to get just a little creative.....you could pretty convincingly argue that NYRA's (Crist's) action back then possibly had a lot to do with the fact that the industry is dying today.

If that's the case, based on what Dahlman said above, do we still need to worship him because he's Steven Crist? :confused:

[andymays]

That's fine.

Let's look at the big picture.

The sport is dying.

Horseplayers are almost unanimous that the sport is dying due to high takeout rates.

Industry people would argue that the sport is dying because of low purses (which are caused by no growth due to high takeout) and that the biggest of bettors have left the tracks for rebate shops.

In 1993 when Crist was honcho for NYRA and raised the takeout, the overall sport of racing was considered healthy....it was NYRA, as usual, that was unhealthy. So in an attempt at a money grab, he did what all smart people would do :bang: , he raised the takeout.

Let's look at what happened......

Dahlman moved to Vegas, which was the catalyst for the inception of rebating and led to the mass exodus of big bettors from the racetracks all over the country.

Other tracks saw that NYRA raised the takeout and it didn't seem to hurt them or was reported that it didn't hurt them and they in turn made more money so across the nation others raised their takeout too.

NY and other areas that raised their takeout following NYRA's (Crist's) lead, have experienced no growth and are dead in the water (unless they get slot welfare).

When the casino boom started not too long after, racetracks were now hooked on the extra money from the raises and couldn't compete with it's new adversaries for the gambling dollar.

NYRA has a 26% takeout rate on p-3, p-4, tri and super wagers and is being used as a comparison to justify the takeout hike in CA.


So if you wanted to get just a little creative.....you could pretty convincingly argue that NYRA's (Crist's) action back then possibly had a lot to do with the fact that the industry is dying today.

If that's the case, based on what Dahlman said above, do we still need to worship him because he's Steven Crist? :confused:

Why is it that you need to throw this crap in your response? Who the eff is worshipping him? I said in my very limited dealings with him he's been friendly and honest. How is that worshipping him?

[InsideThePylons-MW]

Why is it that you need to throw this crap in your response? Who the eff is worshipping him? I said in my very limited dealings with him he's been friendly and honest. How is that worshipping him?

Had nothing to do with you and I guess you haven't been around too long or around NY'ers as almost every horseplayer I've ever met from there when his name is brought up talks about.......worshipping Crist.....get it?

[andymays]

Had nothing to do with you and I guess you haven't been around too long or around NY'ers as almost every horseplayer I've ever met from there when his name is brought up talks about.......worshipping Crist.....get it?

I get it. The guy wrote a good article in favor of Horseplayers and I posted it. I'm sure he's made mistakes in judgement in the past. I've made many mistakes. All that matters is what he's writing now for me.

[InsideThePylons-MW]

I get it. The guy wrote a good article in favor of Horseplayers and I posted it. I'm sure he's made mistakes in judgement in the past. I've made many mistakes. All that matters is what he's writing now for me.

Stop taking this so personal.....you are one of the good guys.

I'm just telling the non auto-biographical stuff about Crist.....it has nothing to do with you.

I'd give him credit if he would have said we (NYRA) or I raised the takeout in 1993 or 94 and it was a huge mistake.....but he didn't.....maybe he forgot.

[andymays]

Stop taking this so personal.....you are one of the good guys.

I'm just telling the non auto-biographical stuff about Crist.....it has nothing to do with you.

I'd give him credit if he would have said we (NYRA) or I raised the takeout in 1993 and it was a huge mistake.....but he didn't.....maybe he forgot.

Ok. :ThmbUp:

I misred your intention. My fault.

I got knocked out of the pick 6. That might have something to do with it. ;)

[DeanT]

I got knocked out of the pick 6. That might have something to do with it. ;)

poly lover.....

[andymays]

poly lover.....

That's me. Don't you remember? That's why I pushed so hard for Keenland to be rated #1. :lol:

[InsideThePylons-MW]

poly lover.....

I'm glad you said it.

I thought it but held back. :eek: ;)

[jelly]

"In 1993 (or 94) when NYRA executives Kenny Noe and Steve Crist announced they were going to raise the takeout 3% it became clear to me that if I stayed in NY I probably wouldn't be able to make a living.".....Ernie Dahlman



What say you mr. Crist?

[Ernie Dahlman]

I didn't start betting New York until 1995 but I would be extremely disappointed in Crist if he EVER wanted to raise takeout there. I'm not doubting Pylons' post; just shows how easy one can switch allegiances.

In Steven Crist's book "Betting on Myself", there is a paragraph on page 185 that says
At least I was able to sell them on a scheme that made it look like a restructuring rather than a plain increase. Instead of raising everything from 17 per cent to 19 or 20 percent, what if we went from 17 to 20 on two-horse bets such as exactas and daily doubles, but went down from 17 to 15 percent on win,place, and show? Since twice as much was bet on the two-horse wagers, the net effect would be the 2 percent increase they were seeking, but at least this way New York could say it had the lowest win-place-show takeout in the country and we'd be giving takeout sensitive customers an option.

[DeanT]

In Steven Crist's book "Betting on Myself", there is a paragraph on page 185 that says
At least I was able to sell them on a scheme that made it look like a restructuring rather than a plain increase. Instead of raising everything from 17 per cent to 19 or 20 percent, what if we went from 17 to 20 on two-horse bets such as exactas and daily doubles, but went down from 17 to 15 percent on win,place, and show? Since twice as much was bet on the two-horse wagers, the net effect would be the 2 percent increase they were seeking, but at least this way New York could say it had the lowest win-place-show takeout in the country and we'd be giving takeout sensitive customers an option

Interesting, since 18 years later California did the same thing to sell it.

The sad thing is it did not work when they did it in New York and Shwartz had to lower it again in 2001. But in CA they must have forgot about that part of it.

[InsideThePylons-MW]

Interesting, since 18 years later California did the same thing to sell it.

The sad thing is it did not work when they did it in New York and Shwartz had to lower it again in 2001. But in CA they must have forgot about that part of it.

Like I said above.......

If he's a objective writer, horseplayer, cares about the game, honest, good guy, etc......just one of those should make him feel obligated to write in his article that we/he tried it before and it failed miserably.

Am I wrong to think this or has the game become every man for himself?

[InsideThePylons-MW]

giving up my source


"dug a lot of deep holes in the last few weeks......." SC

Steven Crist (http://twitter.com/BoiseHandyman/status/13290180034)

:)

[Charlie D]

every man for himself?


It's above i'm afraid ITP

[DeanT]

Am I wrong to think this or has the game become every man for himself?

There is always a band aid around the corner - slots, whatever the new band aid du jour is.

In racing it's much easier to prolong, rather than persevere.

[turfnsport]

There is always a band aid around the corner - slots, whatever the new band aid du jour is.


In California's case once the takeout hike is signed into law, they might need something more along the lines of a tampon.

[castaway01]

In Steven Crist's book "Betting on Myself", there is a paragraph on page 185 that says

Mr. Dahlman, all due respect, but maybe you should actually post the full quote from the book, not just the very ending after the meeting was over. Since Inside the Pylons is allowed that same garbage in each post, I hope I'm allowed to post what Crist actually wrote, rather than a carefully chosen excerpt that is disingenuous at best.

From page 184 of "Betting on Myself"

"Kenny [Noe] had been surprisingly flexible about allowing me to pursue simulcasting and in-home betting, issues on which I had expected to get little support. On one trip we were scheduled to meet with state budget officials, and I was hopeful we could make some progress on another of my missions, takeout reduction.

The meeting began badly. The budget chief said that NYRA's contributions to the state had been declining steadily and that while simulcasting and in-home betting were interesting long-term projects, the state wanted more money now. He thought there was an easy solution: New York's 17 percent takeout on straight and two-horse bets was a little low compared to other states. Why not just bump it up to 20 percent?

I saw Dragone's eyes roll back in frustration, and I opened my mouth to begin my stump speech about how takeout was too high already and a reduction was the only path to long-term growth. Kenny jumped in a second before I could begin.

"I couldn't agree with you more," he told the budget chief. "We'd be willing to do that if some of the money came back to us for purses and the facilities."

There was no arguing the point with him or with the state. The bottom line was that if NYRA wanted more purse money and a franchise renewal, the state wanted more money out of the betting pools. Kenny told me to save my breath about how the press and public would react. A few years down the road we could go back and argue for a reduction, but we had to go along with this now or there wouldn't be a NYRA in a few years. The only question was whether the takeout was going up to 19 or 20 percent."

THEN, after all that, it goes into the oft-quoted part about the "scheme" where you make it sound like it was Crist's idea and not the state of New York, or that he could have done anything about it other than quit his job, in which case takeout would have gone up anyway.

"At least I was able to sell them on a scheme that made it look like a restructuring rather than a plain increase. Instead of raising everything from 17 percent to 19 or 20 percent, what if we went from 17 to 20 on two-horse bets such as exactas and daily doubles, but went down from 17 to 15 percent on win, place, and show? Since twice as much was bet on the two-horse wagers, the net effect would be the 2 percent increase they were seeking, but at least this way New York could say it had the lowest win-place-show takeout in the country."

[Ernie Dahlman]

I saw Dragone's eyes roll back in frustration, and I opened my mouth to begin my stump speech about how takeout was too high already and a reduction was the only path to long-term growth. Kenny jumped in a second before I could begin.

You say I'm disingenuous for not printing this nonsense? Do you really think if Crist would have opened his mouth one second sooner we wouldn't have had a takeout increase?

[andymays]

Isn't the point that just about everyone realizes that Horse Racing has become a bad bet in too many states because of high takeout and other stuff.

Whatever happened in the past is water under the bridge. What's important is not to do the Horseplayers "circular firing squad" thing. I already see it happening.

The enemy is easy to spot. ;)

[Bruddah]

Isn't the point that just about everyone realizes that Horse Racing has become a bad bet in too many states because of high takeout and other stuff.

Whatever happened in the past is water under the bridge. What's important is not to do the Horseplayers "circular firing squad" thing. I already see it happening.

The enemy is easy to spot. ;)

I have seen the enemy and the enemy is us!

Can I get an Amen Bruddah!

[andymays]

[/B]

I have seen the enemy and the enemy is us!

Can I get an Amen Bruddah!

I'm not quite sure on this one.

If you're saying I'm somehow the enemy then no Amen Bruddah. If you saying we need to listen and cooperate with one another to defeat the guys that are destroying the game then absolutely. Amen Bruddah! :ThmbUp:

[DJofSD]

December 26th, eh?

Psssst - pass the word, boycot opening day Santa Anita.

[andymays]

December 26th, eh?

Psssst - pass the word, boycot opening day Santa Anita.

You know as well as I do that that particular day is the day there is a migration to Satellite facilities and Santa Anita for the Calendars . I haven't gone to get one in years but that is a tough day to keep people away.


Whenever it is called or if it is called I will participate.

[InsideThePylons-MW]

I saw Dragone's eyes roll back in frustration, and I opened my mouth to begin my stump speech about how takeout was too high already and a reduction was the only path to long-term growth. Kenny jumped in a second before I could begin.

You say I'm disingenuous for not printing this nonsense? Do you really think if Crist would have opened his mouth one second sooner we wouldn't have had a takeout increase?

The beauty of the autobiography.

[Bruddah]

I'm not quite sure on this one.

If you're saying I'm somehow the enemy then no Amen Bruddah. If you saying we need to listen and cooperate with one another to defeat the guys that are destroying the game then absolutely. Amen Bruddah! :ThmbUp:

What I am saying is, Bettors/ Handicappers/ Fans would rather argue, bitch, complain and be disagreeable among themselves. They can't or won't focus thier comtempt, frustrations and anger on the enemy. ( powers to be etc.) If it takes the least little bit of organization or effort to direct their energies toward an appropriate target, then it's Hell no, let's just argue among ourselves. Basically, this group is thier own worst enemy.

You have been extremely touchy lately. It shows in your posts. Now can I get an Amen Bruddah! ;)

[andymays]

What I am saying is, Bettors/ Handicappers/ Fans would rather argue, bitch, complain and be disagreeable among themselves. They can't or won't focus thier comtempt, frustrations and anger on the enemy. ( powers to be etc.) If it takes the least little bit of organization or effort to direct their energies toward an appropriate target, then it's Hell no, let's just argue among ourselves. Basically, this group is thier own worst enemy.

You have been extremely touchy lately. It shows in your posts. Now can I get an Amen Bruddah! ;)

That's me "touchy Andy". ;) Yes, I've been wound pretty tight over the issue because I'm working on it and following it every day. There is no love lost between myself and some of the Racing Officials and Racing Executives in California.

Give HANA a chance on this one. I've been critical in the past on certain issues but I believe they will lead the way on this.

Absolutely. Amen Bruddah. :ThmbUp:

[thaskalos]

Andymays is putting too much stress on himself unnecessarily, IMO.

This is not Andy's fight, or HANA's fight...THIS IS OUR FIGHT!

This is the fight of ALL the bettors who have supported this game for many years, and have received a slap in the face, instead of the respect they deserve.

They say that we are the customers...as if the racetrack is like a grocery store. What is it exactly that they think we are "buying"...if we are just customers? When the game has been mathematically engineered to insure defeat to at least 98% of the "customer base"...what do they think they are selling us?

Are they selling us entertainment? If they are under the impression that they are in the entertainment business, I suggest that they stand by the doors of their establishments, as the people are leaving after "the show" is over.

Do the customers appear entertained?

They are in the gambling business...pure and simple. And their product is already the most heavily taxed product out there...by far. As a result, the people are finding other games to play...and who can blame them?

But there are some customers, like us, who are still hanging on. We love this game, and have little interest in the other games being offered out there.

And we have waited patiently for common sense to eventually prevail among the leadership of this great game. A way which would put an end to the adversarial relationship between this "business" and its "customers".

And then they come up with a solution like this. Raise taxes, and make the customer shoulder the burden of curing this ailing sport.

The industry is spitting in our faces, ladies and gentlemen...and if we need HANA or Andymays to tell us this...then, we are about as smart as the industry thinks we are.

[andymays]

Andymays is putting too much stress on himself unnecessarily, IMO.

This is not Andy's fight, or HANA's fight...THIS IS OUR FIGHT!

This is the fight of ALL the bettors who have supported this game for many years, and have received a slap in the face, instead of the respect they deserve.

They say that we are the customers...as if the racetrack is like a grocery store. What is it exactly that they think we are "buying"...if we are just customers? When the game has been mathematically engineered to insure defeat to at least 98% of the "customer base"...what do they think they are selling us?

Are they selling us entertainment? If they are under the impression that they are in the entertainment business, I suggest that they stand by the doors of their establishments, as the people are leaving after "the show" is over.

Do the customers appear entertained?

They are in the gambling business...pure and simple. And their product is already the most heavily taxed product out there...by far. As a result, the people are finding other games to play...and who can blame them?

But there are some customers, like us, who are still hanging on. We love this game, and have little interest in the other games being offered out there.

And we have waited patiently for common sense to eventually prevail among the leadership of this great game. A way which would put an end to the adversarial relationship between this "business" and its "customers".

And then they come up with a solution like this. Raise taxes, and make the customer shoulder the burden of curing this ailing sport.

The industry is spitting in our faces, and if we need HANA or Andymays to tell us this...then, we are about as smart as the industry thinks we are.

In this case you do probably do need HANA to lead whether you believe it or not. The reason is that both Jeff and rwwupl have been closely involved in the process that led to the bad bill in California.

Anyone can certainly do their own thing. I do my own thing all the time even though sometimes HANA doesn't really like it. I could care less if I know I'm right on any particular issue. You should do the same.

The issue of going into threads and spamming or wrecking them, especially a thread by someone who is working tirelessly to change things, is just a matter of right and wrong. Nobody cares if you start a thread about "California is dead to me". In the thread you can say whatever you want and people can agree or disagree. To go into any thread that mentions California and do it nonsensical to me. If you wanted to go to Del Mar and do it in their forum I might get it a little. Then the question becomes if it's good to put that up in one thread then why not another thread on any other subject? If you think that people who are looking in will get the message then why not? The answer is that people looking in will just go away if they are interested in a thread subject and not the filibustering that might go on inside it. Anyway that's my take.

[thaskalos]

In this case you do probably do need HANA to lead whether you believe it or not. The reason is that both Jeff and rwwupl have been closely involved in the process that led to the bad bill in California.

Anyone can certainly do their own thing. I do my own thing all the time even though sometimes HANA doesn't really like it. I could care less if I know I'm right on any particular issue. You should do the same.

The issue of going into threads and spamming or wrecking them, especially a thread by someone who is working tirelessly to change things, is just a matter of right and wrong. Nobody cares if you start a thread about "California is dead to me". In the thread you can say whatever you want and people can agree or disagree. To go into any thread that mentions California and do it nonsensical to me. If you wanted to go to Del Mar and do it in their forum I might get it a little. Then the question becomes if it's good to put that up in one thread then why not another thread on any other subject? If you think that people who are looking in will get the message then why not? The answer is that people looking in will just go away if they are interested in a thread subject and not the filibustering that might go on inside it. Anyway that's my take.You misunderstand me again Andy. My intention is not to spam or to wreck the threads.

I was just agreeing with Bruddah who stated that we are our own worst enemies, because we would rather bitch and complain among ourselves...instead of doing something constructive.

[andymays]

You misunderstand me again Andy. My intention is not to spam or to wreck the threads.

I was just agreeing with Bruddah who stated that we are our own worst enemies, because we would rather bitch and complain among ourselves...instead of doing something constructive.

I know that Jeff and rwwupl and myself are doing something constructive right now. If you believe it fine and if not fine. I don't have any official position with HANA although some board members might call me the official "pain in the ass". I might say the same about them. ;)

To pull of something that works requires some organization. Even with the right organization it's still tough. Getting it wrong would be a disaster for everyone.

It's about convincing people who are on the fence that we are doing the right thing if and when something happens.

[thaskalos]

To pull of something that works requires some organization. Even with the right organization it's still tough. Getting it wrong would be a disaster for everyone.

It's about convincing people who are on the fence that we are doing the right thing if and when something happens.That's where we disagree Andy.

There is no convincing anybody of anything.

People can be reminded...but they can NEVER be convinced.

You may think that there are a lot of people "on the fence" on this issue...but I think you are wrong.

Very few people are on the fence, IMO.

The vast majority of the horseplayers are uninterested in the takeout issue...and this has been proven repeatedly in the past. Nothing you can say to them, can change their mind.

And then there are the "serious" fans, who are aware of the evils of the high takeout. Luckily, even if their number is small, they represent a decent % of the betting pools...and this may give them some bargaining power.

And they don't need to be convinced...they just need to be reminded.

It is this group that might be able to make a difference in this takeout issue, IMO...assuming that they take the necessary action, in a timely manner.

Otherwise...all is lost.

I am not disrespecting any of the fine people who are working feverishly behind the scenes...mind you.

But being active in this game for 30 a long time...I agree with Bruddah.

We tend to be all talk, and no action...and, therefore...we become our own worst enemies.

Oganization is good...but taking action is even better.

Nothing personal...but I am an interested party here too. I have been supporting this game, in a big way, for 30 years...and I too should be allowed to vent my frustration, without being accused of spamming or wrecking threads.

[andymays]

That's where we disagree Andy.

There is no convincing anybody of anything.

People can be reminded...but they can NEVER be convinced.

You may think that there are a lot of people "on the fence" on this issue...but I think you are wrong.

Very few people are on the fence, IMO.

The vast majority of the horseplayers are uninterested in the takeout issue...and this has been proven repeatedly in the past. Nothing you can say to them, can change their mind.

And then there are the "serious" fans, who are aware of the evils of the high takeout. Luckily, even if their number is small, they represent a decent % of the betting pools...and this may give them some bargaining power.

It is this group that might be able to make a difference in this takeout issue, IMO...assuming that they take the necessary action, in a timely manner.

Otherwise...all is lost.

I am not disrespecting any of the fine people who are working feverishly behind the scenes...mind you.

But being active in this game for 30 a long time...I agree with Bruddah.

We tend to be all talk, and no action...and, therefore...we become our own worst enemies.

Oganization is good...but taking action is even better.

Nothing personal...but I am an interested party here too. I have been supporting this game, in a big way, for 30 years...and I too should be allowed to vent my frustration, without being accused of spamming or wrecking threads.

It is about convincing people because the other side will try to confuse the issue in order to get their way. You have to make a clear and convincing case that people should stand with you. The more people that stand with you the more likely things will change.

What's your plan? Lay it out. Maybe I'll follow you if I like your plan.

What actions would you take?

Also, have you been in on any of the meetings held in California or listened to them? Have you spoken with any of the Racing Executives or Racing Officials or members of the CTT or the TOC that are involved?

[thaskalos]

What's your plan? Lay it out. Maybe I'll follow you if I like your plan.

What actions would you take?

Also, have you been in on any of the meetings held in California or listened to them? Have you spoken with any of the Racing Executives or Racing Officials or members of the CTT or the TOC that are involved?And what have all the meetings that YOU have been to, done for the player?

Lay THAT out!

[andymays]

And what have all the meetings that YOU have been to, done for the player?

Lay THAT out!

I lay it out every day. You can feel free to go back to all my threads and posts over the last two years. There are several people here that can back me up on that.

I'm not busting your balls on this. I seriously want to know what you know and if you know a better way to get stuff done then lay it out. I am serious when I say I will follow you or your suggestions if I like them.

[PaceAdvantage]

You misunderstand me again Andy. My intention is not to spam or to wreck the threads.

I was just agreeing with Bruddah who stated that we are our own worst enemies, because we would rather bitch and complain among ourselves...instead of doing something constructive.Having numerous people post the same reply - "California racing is dead to me" - to every "non-negative" California racing thread is spam, plain and simple.

And the ONLY thing you can do that will have ANY affect at all is to withhold your wagering dollars. That's it. That's the only message that will have any impact whatsoever.

So you need to organize and you need to organize in a large way. HANA is the perfect vehicle for this and one has to wonder if they (HANA) are up to the task of seizing this opportunity and making an example out of California and their proposed takeout hike.

[thaskalos]

Having numerous people post the same reply - "California racing is dead to me" - to every "non-negative" California racing thread is spam, plain and simple.

And the ONLY thing you can do that will have ANY affect at all is to withhold your wagering dollars. That's it. That's the only message that will have any impact whatsoever.

So you need to organize and you need to organize in a large way. HANA is the perfect vehicle for this and one has to wonder if they (HANA) are up to the task of seizing this opportunity and making an example out of California and their proposed takeout hike.PA...I did not post a "California racing is dead to me" reply, when I was accused of spamming and wrecking threads. What does my post in this thread (#36) have to do with the protest slogan started by Rook?

This thread is about the California takeout issue, and I just voiced my opinion on why I feel the increased takeout is an injustice against the player.

Read my post, and explain to me how I "hijacked" the thread and then "wrecked" it with my spam.

[pandy]

The bottom line is, once the takeout is raised, an organized boycott of the track is probably the best way to get the takeout reduced. If enough people stop betting the track, they should get the message.

[JustRalph]

PA...I did not post a "California racing is dead to me" reply, when I was accused of spamming and wrecking threads. What does my post in this thread (#36) have to do with the protest slogan started by Rook?

This thread is about the California takeout issue, and I just voiced my opinion on why I feel the increased takeout is an injustice against the player.

Read my post, and explain to me how I "hijacked" the thread and then "wrecked" it with my spam.

Wow....you are thick ..........why do you have to argue about the tiny details ? I think you get the gist of what PA is saying don't you ? Knowing when to pick your battles is just as important as the fighting..........technically speaking anyway

[turfnsport]

The bottom line is, once the takeout is raised, an organized boycott of the track is probably the best way to get the takeout reduced. If enough people stop betting the track, they should get the message.

I think getting the takeout reduced is a longshot at best..But I think a boycott is of the utmost importance to show OTHER tracks not to follow suit.

[rrbauer]

The bottom line is, once the takeout is raised, an organized boycott of the track is probably the best way to get the takeout reduced. If enough people stop betting the track, they should get the message.


I think getting the takeout reduced is a longshot at best..But I think a boycott is of the utmost importance to show OTHER tracks not to follow suit.

Now we're talking. Let's do more than talk. I have not placed a bet on Calif tracks since last year's BC (mainly because of their insanity over track surfaces and the lousy racing product). Will not place another one until they recover from their madness and improve their product. Calif horse owners think that because they have some political clout that they can just take whatever amount of my money they want....I got news for them.

[andymays]

Now we're talking. Let's do more than talk. I have not placed a bet on Calif tracks since last year's BC (mainly because of their insanity over track surfaces and the lousy racing product). Will not place another one until they recover from their madness and improve their product. Calif horse owners think that because they have some political clout that they can just take whatever amount of my money they want....I got news for them.


I'm with everyone of a suspension of play.

I'd like to see it done for a few days at the Oak Tree meet. If it's successful and I think it will be it can always be done again at the Santa Anita meet.

Tell me why a three day deal is a bad idea.

[Greyfox]

I'm with everyone of a suspension of play.

I'd like to see it done for a few days at the Oak Tree meet.

I won't participate in any boycott until the rates go up.
Dec 26 and on, makes sense to me.

[andymays]

I won't participate in any boycott until the rates go up.
Dec 26 and on, makes sense to me.

What if a suspension of play prior to the take going up causes them to think twice about it?

Opening day of Santa Anita is close to a Breeders Cup day out here. Thousands of people go just to get the Calendar. It's a tradition.

What if a suspension of play caused them to rethink things and offer a Horseplayer early pick4 with a 10% takeout?

It's about chipping away at them. ;)

[Charlie D]

Forget California and join the Retama Park players where you get WPS at 18%, Exacta at 21%, DD at 12% and Pick 3 at 12%


Decent field sizes too.

[andymays]

Forget California and join the Retama Park players where you get WPS at 18%, Exacta at 21%, DD at 12% and Pick 3 at 12%


Decent field sizes too.

Charlie as much as people want to kick California in the ass they still have the most juice of any state by far.

TVGT and HRTV are based there.

www.chrims.com is based there. Look at their customer list.

If it wasn't for Frankie Ga Ga the Breeders Cup would have a permanent home in California. ;)

I'm not saying it's a good thing but "juice" is "juice" and they still have it even though they don't deserve it. ;)

[Charlie D]

This track is offering what your after and all you do is make excuses.



:lol:

[PaceAdvantage]

PA...I did not post a "California racing is dead to me" reply, when I was accused of spamming and wrecking threads. What does my post in this thread (#36) have to do with the protest slogan started by Rook?

This thread is about the California takeout issue, and I just voiced my opinion on why I feel the increased takeout is an injustice against the player.

Read my post, and explain to me how I "hijacked" the thread and then "wrecked" it with my spam.Post #36 is certainly not spam and certainly not a hijack and certainly not what I meant to convey to you as the subject of my reply. If I could go back and erase that first sentence in my last reply, I would (actually, of course I can...but it would muck up the flow...lol)

Peace.