Retire Rachel? Why?

[PaceAdvantage]

Steve Haskin writes:

But if you think Rachel’s fire has lessened or been extinguished, let’s not forget she ran Life At Ten, a towering, powerhouse of a filly who was coming off six straight wins, including the 1 1/4-mile Delaware Handicap, into the ground, leaving her 10 1/4 lengths in her wake. Yes, it did take its toll, but let’s not think the spirit and the fight no longer are there. http://cs.bloodhorse.com/blogs/horse-racing-steve-haskin/archive/2010/08/30/hangin-with-haskin-retire-rachel-why.aspx

[horses4courses]

Steve Haskin writes:

http://cs.bloodhorse.com/blogs/horse-racing-steve-haskin/archive/2010/08/30/hangin-with-haskin-retire-rachel-why.aspx

No need to retire her if she's healthy, and that appears to be the case.

Will she reproduce her brilliance of 2009?
Highly unlikely.........

[Irish Boy]

Maybe it's just me, but I think the retirement talk is less "she should be retired immediately" and more "the writing is on the wall, it's not too long until she start's having Curlin's babies." At least the smart retirement talk.

She has a few more Grade I victories in her, even against top competition. She maybe shouldn't be going off the board at 1-2 or anything like that anymore (except against a very soft field), but they can win some good purses if that's what they want. Anyone that denies that is a dolt.

[pandy]

As I mentioned before, years ago many great horses went through streaks where their brilliance appeared to be diminishing but back then the owners just kept racing them and the horses came back strong. And it's a good thing or the sport would have missed out on some of the most memorable moments, such as Sea Biscuit's win in the Big Cap. Now a horse loses a race or two and everyone talks about retirement. That's one of the main problems with the sport, they retire them too early.

[KingChas]

Great Horse's do lose...

Brings to mind anyone remember Onion? ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ik9U4JVrr_Q

[cpitt84]

I wouldn't retire her, she has just showed she doesn't want to go 1 1/4 mile. I'd run her at the beldame, get another crack at persistently, and possibly the ladies classic.

[WinterTriangle]

She has a few more Grade I victories in her, even against top competition.

I agree wholeheartedly.

My questions are more about when.

Not sure she should be rushed to the Classic, but if it's beneath her dignity to run on Friday, then that leaves the Classic. :bang:

I guess there's no way to tell until some time passes and we see how she came out of the PE. Will she be building back into condition, or not?

With Curlin waiting, do you think we'll see her on the track in 2011?

[Tom]

You bury a horse coming off 6 Gr1 wins and your next move is retirement.
Precious. We should have 3 horse fields this time next year.

[ArlJim78]

Life At Ten has one GR1 win that I'm aware of, not 6.

[lamboguy]

As I mentioned before, years ago many great horses went through streaks where their brilliance appeared to be diminishing but back then the owners just kept racing them and the horses came back strong. And it's a good thing or the sport would have missed out on some of the most memorable moments, such as Sea Biscuit's win in the Big Cap. Now a horse loses a race or two and everyone talks about retirement. That's one of the main problems with the sport, they retire them too early.the stupid reason why they retire early is because they don't race enough and sit in the barns and develop injury's kicking down the barn door,

last week at saratoga dick dutrow won with a horse that he ran 3 times in 8 days. that is precisely what these horse want to do. in canada i often see horses run twice a week in harness, there again that is what horses want to do.

in today's world you have big trainers like pletcher levine mckpeek and so on that 5 horses that fit the condition for a race. one or two run the other's sit around and wait. the other day i heard an interview with kiran, he said he likes to run his horses with 5-6 weeks off.

how can owners make money at this game when their horse sits in the barn?


these super trainers have changed the game, and the result is small fields, lack of excitement and lack of people interested in the game.

jess jackson and jerry moss spend plenty of money insureing their two top mares and yet they still run them. those guys are very good for the game wheather you like their personalities or not.

[lamboguy]

Maybe it's just me, but I think the retirement talk is less "she should be retired immediately" and more "the writing is on the wall, it's not too long until she start's having Curlin's babies." At least the smart retirement talk.

She has a few more Grade I victories in her, even against top competition. She maybe shouldn't be going off the board at 1-2 or anything like that anymore (except against a very soft field), but they can win some good purses if that's what they want. Anyone that denies that is a dolt.they pay more in insurance than what they could possibly win in purses on rachel. after a great race like the personal ensign that she ran, why would jackson retire her? if she didn't run good then i could see the retirement talk.

rachel is probably keeping jess jackson alive. its not a question of money, and i am sure he will not disgrace her.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

If she has an injury, then fine, retire her. If she is sound, it is detrimental to the sport to retire her.

One of the biggest plagues on the industry is good to great horses become shooting stars.

We need more Cigars, Kelsos, John Henrys and Foregos. At least we still have Zenyatta and Rachel right now.

[Tom]

Life At Ten has one GR1 win that I'm aware of, not 6.

Well then, retire her arse!;)

[tzipi]

Saying retire a horse like RA who hasn't run worse than second and destroyed LAT(top horse) only to get caught at the wire at 1 1/4 because of fast fractions, is nuts. Shows most people don't know the game at all.

[ArlJim78]

Well then, retire her arse!;)
No that's not my position. If she's healthy I'd like to see her out there running. Even though she is off of her peak from last year, she's still one of the best mares we've seen in a long long time, and one of the top active horses in training. It would be a real loss to the racing world if they took her out of training at this point.

[Tom]

Good discussion on Byk yesterday - how many lengths at the wire did Calvin cost RA by floating LAT six wide ( and going 5 wide to do it) or however much he went out there?


Retire her - nonsense.

[Pick6]

I figure at least 3, probably more like 4 or 5.

The problem with RA's camp is that the basic gameplan for beating her is obvious. So, anybody with a rabbit + closer has a solid chance of getting her beat.

If she sticks to 1 1/16 she should be able to weather any pace. Not sure about 1 1/8.

[tzipi]

I figure at least 3, probably more like 4 or 5.

The problem with RA's camp is that the basic gameplan for beating her is obvious. So, anybody with a rabbit + closer has a solid chance of getting her beat.

If she sticks to 1 1/16 she should be able to weather any pace. Not sure about 1 1/8.

She just lost at the wire through some fast fractions at 1 1/4 but not sure about 1 1/8?

[classhandicapper]

I don't think they should retire her unless there's something wrong that we don't know about.

IMHO, it's sort of difficult to evaluate her this year anyway.

I saw a live interview with Asmuessen before the race where he specifically said that last year when he got her she was at her peak, but this year he has been trying to get her to peak for the Breeder's Cup later in the year (something I've been saying all along). It's not a shock she was a little short in her first couple of races this year.

The Personal Ensign itself is also tough to quantify.

It was 10F and the only 2 turn race of the day.

As it is, IMHO she ran quite well. It's a matter of degree. She put away another Grade 1 mare in a spirited confrontation, drew off, and held together until the last 1/8th where she slowly started to shorten stride and then tire.

It's equally tough to quantify the winner because she almost certainly ran an all time top, but by how much? Nothing in her record suggests she had a huge race in her.

Personally, I have never questioned her ability to get 10F.

I have always questioned her ability to engage other Grade 1 horses on the front end and then turn back Grade 1 horses coming at her late at 10F. On that score, I think this race demonstrated what I've been saying all along. She would have a really difficult time in the Breeder's Cup Classic coping with horses like Quality Road and Rail Trip early and then holding off horses like Blame, Musket Man, Zenyatta etc... at 10F.

The Classic should probably be out of the question.

I guess you have to say she's slipped a little this year, but I don't think it's by all that much because IMO some of her Beyer figures from last year were inflated and the quality of competition was also slightly over rated.

NO matter, IMO she is one of the all time great fillies/mares and she's still an all time great even if she's a hair below last year.

[DeanT]

She just lost at the wire through some fast fractions at 1 1/4 but not sure about 1 1/8?
Considering she was asked with a quarter mile to go and had nothing, one would suspect that she might have been soundly beaten by a decent 9f horse as well.

I dont think analyzing this race for a gauge on this mare is overly fruitful. She is an amazing horse who is better than a 92 (or whatever she ran) or a 95 or 96 (or whatever she would have run yesterday if the race was 9f).

IMO, She had a bad day, or she is cooked, or whatever - we may never know. But looking at the race and trying to find excuses, or dissecting every ounce of ground loss, seems to be missing the point with this mare. She is 50X the mare she was yesterday. She was prolly 20X the mare in her KD win this year as compared to this forgettable tilt. We'll see if she bounces back next time, or regresses again, or she hangs em up.

[Market Mover]

they pay more in insurance than what they could possibly win in purses on rachel. after a great race like the personal ensign that she ran, why would jackson retire her? if she didn't run good then i could see the retirement talk.

rachel is probably keeping jess jackson alive. its not a question of money, and i am sure he will not disgrace her.



does anyone know his diagnosis?

[tzipi]

Considering she was asked with a quarter mile to go and had nothing, one would suspect that she might have been soundly beaten by a decent 9f horse as well.

I dont think analyzing this race for a gauge on this mare is overly fruitful. She is an amazing horse who is better than a 92 (or whatever she ran) or a 95 or 96 (or whatever she would have run yesterday if the race was 9f).

IMO, She had a bad day, or she is cooked, or whatever - we may never know. But looking at the race and trying to find excuses, or dissecting every ounce of ground loss, seems to be missing the point with this mare. She is 50X the mare she was yesterday. She was prolly 20X the mare in her KD win this year as compared to this forgettable tilt. We'll see if she bounces back next time, or regresses again, or she hangs em up.


She ran a 1 1/4 with good fast fractions up front and put away the other top horse by over ten lengths while just losing at the wire. Yeah bad race. :confused:. If Persisntently ran a bit bad, everyone is saying wow, fast fractions and still won at a 1 1/4.
LAT was talked up all over until after this race. Now she's a no one and nothings said. I guess that's because RA ran her into the ground and beat her by over 10. If she talked up that means RA ran real well even during a wire loss.

[DeanT]

She ran a 1 1/4 with good fast fractions up front and put away the other top horse by over ten lengths while just losing at the wire. Yeah bad race. :confused:. If Persisntently ran a bit bad, everyone is saying wow, fast fractions and still won at a 1 1/4.
LAT was talked up all over until after this race. Now she's a no one and nothings said. I guess that's because RA ran her into the ground and beat her by over 10. If she talked up that means RA ran real well even during a wire loss.

That's fair enough. You handicap in a way I am unfamiliar. That's fine. The game is pari-mutuel and it's how we are supposed to do it.

[Pick6]

She just lost at the wire through some fast fractions at 1 1/4 but not sure about 1 1/8?
... to an optional claimer who ran the final 1/4 in 26 and change.

Your statement "fast fractions" only bolsters my point. This is the gameplan for beating RA. Why change it for 1 1/8?

[tzipi]

That's fair enough. You handicap in a way I am unfamiliar. That's fine. The game is pari-mutuel and it's how we are supposed to do it.

I handicap the race as RA went out fast with LAT and blew her away and just lost at the wire in a 1 1/4 race. I handicap that as a good race by RA.

So if they ran again next month with same field and Life at Ten was out of the race and a mid pack horse was added, you would play Persistently again? How do you handicap it? Just wondering because obviously we are different.

[tzipi]

... to an optional claimer who ran the final 1/4 in 26 and change.

Your statement "fast fractions" only bolsters my point. This is the gameplan for beating RA. Why change it for 1 1/8?

Were you all over Zenyatta just trying to get up over an allowance horse in her last?

Anyway,you don't have to change it then. If it was a 1 1/8 race,RA beats Persistently obviously because she lost at the wire at 1 1/4.

What was the "gameplan" there Pick6? Pletcher and Johnny V said lets use our top horse to wear out RA! Yup, they were out to lose. :rolleyes:

[DeanT]

I handicap the race as RA went out fast with LAT and blew her away and just lost at the wire in a 1 1/4 race. I handicap that as a good race by RA.

So if they ran again next month with same field and Life at Ten was out of the race and a mid pack horse was added, you would play Persistently again? How do you handicap it? Just wondering because obviously we are different.

I handicap her the same way I handicapped her last race.

I see a possibly overbet horse who is regressing. If she is too low I will bet against her, if she is too high I will bet on her.

If she is 4-5 in the Beldame against the same type horses you might find that a great value bet, and you might be correct. I on the other hand will find that an overbet more than likely, because she looks to be regressing and her regressing races this year as compared to last look like a pattern to me - one that I can financially exploit. I would not be hugely surprised to see her run a beyer in the 80's somewhere.

In a six horse field with any quality, I am praying for a bridge jumper so I can bet the others to show. In the same field you might be that show bettor.

You might be right and I might be wrong, or vice versa. It's why we play the game, and that is all cool.

[tzipi]

I handicap her the same way I handicapped her last race.

I see a possibly overbet horse who is regressing. If she is too low I will bet against her, if she is too high I will bet on her.

If she is 4-5 in the Beldame against the same type horses you might find that a great value bet, and you might be correct. I on the other hand will find that an overbet more than likely, because she looks to be regressing and her regressing races this year as compared to last look like a pattern to me - one that I can financially exploit. I would not be hugely surprised to see her run a beyer in the 80's somewhere.

In a six horse field with any quality, I am praying for a bridge jumper so I can bet the others to show. In the same field you might be that show bettor.

You might be right and I might be wrong, or vice versa. It's why we play the game, and that is all cool.

Well,nothing wrong with agreeing to disagree. :)

[Pick6]

Were you all over Zenyatta just trying to get up over an allowance horse in her last?

Anyway,you don't have to change it then. If it was a 1 1/8 race,RA beats Persistently obviously because she lost at the wire at 1 1/4.

What was the "gameplan" there Pick6? Pletcher and Johnny V said lets use our top horse to wear out RA! Yup, they were out to lose. :rolleyes:
Who are we talking about here? I thought we were talking about RA.

Why don't you go back to my original post and read it again. The gameplan to beat RA going forward is obvious. Enter a rabbit + closer. Optional claimer beats her a length at 1 1/4, and a solid competitor should be able to get up at 1 1/8. Are you saying something different?

[tzipi]

Who are we talking about here? I thought we were talking about RA.

Why don't you go back to my original post and read it again. The gameplan to beat RA going forward is obvious. Enter a rabbit + closer. Optional claimer beats her a length at 1 1/4, and a solid competitor should be able to get up at 1 1/8. Are you saying something different?

She's faced rabbits at a 1 1/8 and other distances before and still won over solid competitiors who closed. :confused:
Plus,you keep saying Opt Claimer like it suppose to be a put down? One, I haven't see you rant "ALLOWANCE HORSE" that Zen barely got by at the wire. Hmmm. Two, go check how many greats and top horses in history lost to "low level" horses over their careers. Plenty. You act like a Opt claimer went head to head in a race and beat RA soundly! Give me a break. Go try to fool a new fan to the game.

You would've beaten up on Seattle Slew for not beating Excellar in the Jockey Gold Cup at the wire after running fast fractions upfront with Affirmed.

[Pick6]

She's faced rabbits at a 1 1/8 and other distances before and still won over solid competitiors who closed. :confused:
Not quite the same horse, agreed? And I'm not sure who those other rabbits were, but it's obvious RA had nothing in the tank when she needed it at the end. Again this is the obvious gameplan to get her beat.

Plus,you keep saying Opt Claimer like it suppose to be a put down? One, I haven't see you rant "ALLOWANCE HORSE" that Zen barely got by at the wire. Hmmm. Two, go check how many greats and top horses in history lost to "low level" horses over their careers. Plenty. You act like a Opt claimer went head to head in a race and beat RA soundly! Give me a break. Go try to fool a new fan to the game.
Again, who are we talking about here?

I said "optional claimer" because it's fair to assume there are others who are more capable than running 26+ final quarters to pick off a tiring horse.

You would've beaten up on Seattle Slew for not beating Excellar in the Jockey Gold Cup at the wire after running fast fractions upfront with Affirmed.
No, I understand how good Exceller was. And he was not an optional claimer. He was one of the most brilliant and versatile performers of his generation. And like I said, Barrera knew how to beat Slew, when he entered Life's Hope. It's just that it was not Affirmed who got it done.

[tzipi]

Not quite the same horse, agreed? And I'm not sure who those other rabbits were, but it's obvious RA had nothing in the tank when she needed it at the end.

So never in RA races did she ever face tough upfront fractions from horses that could run fast? The closers she faced before were not as good as Pesistently?
She ran upfron pretty hard with LAT and tried to hold on with what she had. LAT(top horse) was 10 lengths behind her. Not like they ran slow fractions and RA folded in the stretch. Seems like that here though.

Excellar was a good horse but not even close to Seattle Slew. Slew whipped Excellar the race before by 4 lengths. Forego,Kelso,etc all got beat by horses who were basically "opt claimer"/allowance horses. It happens when the cards fall their way.

You can feel however you want Pick6. We'll have to agree to disagree.

[Pick6]

So never in RA races did she ever face tough upfront fractions from horses that could run fast? The closers she faced before were not as good as Pesistently?
She actually ran faster before, and finished much better. Not Sunday.

She ran upfron pretty hard with LAT and tried to hold on with what she had. LAT(top horse) was 10 lengths behind her. Not like they ran slow fractions and RA folded in the stretch. Seems like that here though.
Again, you are only bolstering my point. Fast fractions = rabbit = gameplan to beat RA. RA's stride was quite short in the end and she had basically nothing left. Borel estimated she ran a 14 second final 1/8. Trotter could have probably run faster.

Excellar was a good horse but not even close to Seattle Slew. Slew whipped Excellar the race before by 4 lengths. Forego,Kelso,etc all got beat by horses who were basically "opt claimer"/allowance horses. It happens when the cards fall their way.

You can feel however you want Pick6. We'll have to agree to disagree.
Exceller was probably the best horse (outside of Easy Goer?) not to be voted with an end-of-year award. Slew was a great horse, and Exceller was not far behind.

Slew beat Exceller in the 1 1/4 Woodward two weeks prior. Slew had the pace to himself, and was never seriously challenged. That changed in the Gold Cup.

[tzipi]

She actually ran faster before, and finished much better. Not Sunday.


Again, you are only bolstering my point. Fast fractions = rabbit = gameplan to beat RA. RA's stride was quite short in the end and she had basically nothing left. Borel estimated she ran a 14 second final 1/8. Trotter could have probably run faster.

Yup,you proved my point. Shes run faster in the past with speed horses and still won holding off closers. So whats this "game plan" talk all about? This "gameplan" has been going on for two years and it mostly hasn't worked.

Well she had enough to beat LAT by over 10 lengths. But yeah some closer picked up the pieces on the fractions they ran for the 1 1/4. Oh well,has happened to the best.

"Fast fractions=rabbit=" already happened in races with RA and shes still won most times. What happens when there's more than one speed horse entered. Well we can look at her PP's results for that. C'mon go look at all the other past history top horses and their loses with their slow last quarters. This is nothing new and it wasn't a horrible race. Not a newbie.
Funny how LAT is not mentioned as a top competitor anymore here and is just a low rabbit now. :D . I guess because RA whipped by her by 10 lengths,no one can give credit.

Again,I can only say we have to agree to disagree. I'm not going to ever think that was a horrible 1 1/4 race or think LAT is a horrible horse or that a a second place fininsh in a tough race today means you're done after you have won and finished second in all your most recent races.

[Pick6]

Yup,you proved my point. Shes run faster in the past with speed horses and still won holding off closers. So whats this "game plan" talk all about? This "gameplan" has been going on for two years and it mostly hasn't worked.

Well she had enough to beat LAT by over 10 lengths. But yeah some closer picked up the pieces on the fractions they ran for the 1 1/4. Oh well,has happened to the best.

"Fast fractions=rabbit=" already happened in races with RA and shes still won most times. What happens when there's more than one speed horse entered. Well we can look at her PP's results for that. C'mon go look at all the other past history top horses and their loses with their slow last quarters. This is nothing new and it wasn't a horrible race. Not a newbie.
Funny how LAT is not mentioned as a top competitor anymore here and is just a low rabbit now. :D . I guess because RA whipped by her by 10 lengths,no one can give credit.

[x] RA is not the same horse she was.
[x] RA had nothing left in the tank against a fast pace.
[x] Other trainers have gameplan to beat her.

Disagree with any of the above assertions?

[tzipi]

[x] RA is not the same horse she was.
[x] RA had nothing left in the tank against a fast pace.
[x] Other trainers have gameplan to beat her.

Disagree with any of the above assertions?

:rolleyes: Other trainers have a gameplan to beat her now? They have been running up front trying to wear her out for the last two years mostly. MOstly hasn't even worked. What new gameplan? It's old.

"RA had nothing left in the tank" Yup,and all the other horses were how far behind her except Persist? Did she get passed by all the horses?
Do you know how many top horses in history came up empty in the stretch only to go on to win a ton more? What is this new racing thinking? Can we see her run a season,etc before we call things over.
You would've said Forego was done and not the same after some of his folds in the stretch. Go look at his 75' Marlboro Cup loss. He won the Brooklyn Handicap(same dist.) 3 races before in faster fractions and final time. Was he done after his Marlboro Cup?

[WinterTriangle]

LAT was talked up all over until after this race. Now she's a no one and nothings said.

Those thinking that LAT was gonna beat RA were delusional, IMHO. And many just stopped looking elsewhere. Choosing LAT was just a "desperate attempt" to try to beat RA. Those that didn't look further were just subliminally buying into the media "match race" hype. I was honestly laughing thinking anyone would think LAT was gonna stalk RA and then run by her. :D

As I said afterwards then, and will say again now, anyone who faulted RA's effort in this race is being a weenie. She looked fantastic. (But tired afterwards. )


LAT is not a G1 level horse just for having won ONE G1. (Life at Ten was merely the best horse RA faced THIS season.....and that was real bad data to go on if you ask me.) You are comparing a true G1 level champion horse (RA) with one who is fast and on a winning streak, but NOT a true G1 level horse.

Watch LATs races at DEL and HAW, then watch RA's Lady's Secret and the gallop-out. RA's only problem was that she was somewhat *vulnerable* at 10F (but way less so than LAT). But-----then---- watch Peristently's race against LAT last november, where she rallied after being checked at the break and LAT barely beat her.:) (then watch LAT's DEL and HAW races again) Then, watch Peristently's previous Saratoga race.

Using Peristently's beyer was less useful than watching the replays (which is usually the case for any data compared to watching a race). I have not found beyers to be *the way and the light* at 10F anyway.


RA beats LAT whether using beyer, best times for 9F, and even pedigree. Besides, Pletcher is terrible at getting horses to go longer....find me a few. Even if you compared RA's workouts with LAT's....look at these 6Fs Rachel put in with Brig.

None of these were "proficient" at 10F, so getting the distance was my main question. Malibu Moon offspring win a lot at dirt, and he's a wonderful sire who produces tanks. But not at 10F. Devil May Care, Malibu Prayer, Funny Moon, Odysseus, Baltimore Bob....all winning at 7-9F. I was discussing this with pedigree folks, the bottom line was MM progeny at 10F was a no-go.

I wish I had played the trifecta, as I did have LAT around 3rd/4th.

anyway, that's how I handicapped it and as I said on SUN, the board ate my post and I was too tired to go thru the reasoning again. I'm glad if anyone had to beat RA it was Peristently. Shug put a ton of patience and work into her, and anyone who thinks that this was just an *accident* has no idea what Shug is all about. I think Grits was saying this earlier, ditto, Jerry Bailey.

and so did Shug: "“I thought that (Rachel Alexandra) might be a little vulnerable going a mile and a quarter, and I knew we’d run a mile and a quarter. Her female family runs a long way."

[46zilzal]

I'd keep her at 8.5f or less and she would really shine at those distances

[Pick6]

:rolleyes: Other trainers have a gameplan to beat her now?
Correct.
They have been running up front trying to wear her out for the last two years mostly. MOstly hasn't even worked.
She was better then, but this is now.
What new gameplan? It's old.
Not really. And it's effective, as demonstrated Sunday. And this was not the first time, although this was probably the cheapest horse to beat her to date, IMO.

"RA had nothing left in the tank" Yup,
14 second final 1/8 = "nothing left in the tank."
...and all the other horses were how far behind her except Persist? Did she get passed by all the horses?
No, but she did not win, either, which is basically the point of the connections entering her.
Do you know how many top horses in history came up empty in the stretch only to go on to win a ton more? What is this new racing thinking? Can we see her run a season,etc before we call things over.
This is certainly not new thinking. It was quite effective against horses far better than RA. Dr. Fager comes to mind.
You would've said Forego was done and not the same after some of his folds in the stretch. Go look at his 75' Marlboro Cup loss. He won the Brooklyn Handicap(same dist.) 3 races before in faster fractions and final time. Was he done after his Marlboro Cup?
Well, I certainly understood that Forego was not vulnerable to a rabbit. In fact he benefited from it if anything. RA is quite vulnerable to a rabbit. This will be the gameplan going forward in beating RA. It is quite obvious.

[Dahoss9698]

I must have missed Pick 6's pre race opinion. Where can I find this?

[Pick6]

I must have missed Pick 6's pre race opinion. Where can I find this?
About RA not wanting 1 1/4 miles?

You don't use the search function well. And it is immaterial regardless.

And what exactly was your pre-race opinion?

[Dahoss9698]

About RA not wanting 1 1/4 miles?

You don't use the search function well. And it is immaterial regardless.

And what exactly was your pre-race opinion?

My pre race opinion was that the race was unbettable to me. Am I to assume that you cleaned up in the race also?

[Pick6]

My pre race opinion was that the race was unbettable to me.
Of course, your "position" was no position. I should have seen that coming from miles away.
Am I to assume that you cleaned up in the race also?
I'll let you deduce that on your own. Hint: my EG was 1.03%.

[Dahoss9698]

Yeah that's me. One to shy away from giving my opinion on races beforehand.

[born2ride]

Those thinking that LAT was gonna beat RA were delusional, IMHO. And many just stopped looking elsewhere. Choosing LAT was just a "desperate attempt" to try to beat RA. Those that didn't look further were just subliminally buying into the media "match race" hype. I was honestly laughing thinking anyone would think LAT was gonna stalk RA and then run by her. :D

As I said afterwards then, and will say again now, anyone who faulted RA's effort in this race is being a weenie. She looked fantastic. (But tired afterwards. )


LAT is not a G1 level horse just for having won ONE G1. (Life at Ten was merely the best horse RA faced THIS season.....and that was real bad data to go on if you ask me.) You are comparing a true G1 level champion horse (RA) with one who is fast and on a winning streak, but NOT a true G1 level horse.

Watch LATs races at DEL and HAW, then watch RA's Lady's Secret and the gallop-out. RA's only problem was that she was somewhat *vulnerable* at 10F (but way less so than LAT). But-----then---- watch Peristently's race against LAT last november, where she rallied after being checked at the break and LAT barely beat her.:) (then watch LAT's DEL and HAW races again) Then, watch Peristently's previous Saratoga race.

Using Peristently's beyer was less useful than watching the replays (which is usually the case for any data compared to watching a race). I have not found beyers to be *the way and the light* at 10F anyway.


RA beats LAT whether using beyer, best times for 9F, and even pedigree. Besides, Pletcher is terrible at getting horses to go longer....find me a few. Even if you compared RA's workouts with LAT's....look at these 6Fs Rachel put in with Brig.

None of these were "proficient" at 10F, so getting the distance was my main question. Malibu Moon offspring win a lot at dirt, and he's a wonderful sire who produces tanks. But not at 10F. Devil May Care, Malibu Prayer, Funny Moon, Odysseus, Baltimore Bob....all winning at 7-9F. I was discussing this with pedigree folks, the bottom line was MM progeny at 10F was a no-go.

I wish I had played the trifecta, as I did have LAT around 3rd/4th.

anyway, that's how I handicapped it and as I said on SUN, the board ate my post and I was too tired to go thru the reasoning again. I'm glad if anyone had to beat RA it was Peristently. Shug put a ton of patience and work into her, and anyone who thinks that this was just an *accident* has no idea what Shug is all about. I think Grits was saying this earlier, ditto, Jerry Bailey.

and so did Shug: "“I thought that (Rachel Alexandra) might be a little vulnerable going a mile and a quarter, and I knew we’d run a mile and a quarter. Her female family runs a long way."

Nice post. I wholeheartedly agree on every point.

[PaceAdvantage]

I figure at least 3, probably more like 4 or 5.

The problem with RA's camp is that the basic gameplan for beating her is obvious. So, anybody with a rabbit + closer has a solid chance of getting her beat.

If she sticks to 1 1/16 she should be able to weather any pace. Not sure about 1 1/8.The fact remains she has come off the pace to win multiple times...she was four lengths off the pace in third in the Mother Goose and won by almost 20 lengths.

She is not a need-to-lead type who would be the most vulnerable to whabbits and whatnot.

[PaceAdvantage]

As it is, IMHO she ran quite well. It's a matter of degree. She put away another Grade 1 mare in a spirited confrontation, drew off, and held together until the last 1/8th where she slowly started to shorten stride and then tire.It pleases me to see you and I agree for a change.

[Charlie D]

The fact remains she has come off the pace to win multiple times...she was four lengths off the pace in third in the Mother Goose and won by almost 20 lengths.

She is not a need-to-lead type who would be the most vulnerable to whabbits and whatnot.


Correct.


I've heard of whabbits, but what are these whatnot's??

[DeanT]

Speaking of fast paces, how bout that Mother Goose?

I am still smarting that swimming is kicking our ass in the ESPN poll. Freaking swimming.

[PaceAdvantage]

Now that Pick6 has made his/her obligatory appearance in a post-RA/post-Zen thread, can ghostyapper be far behind?

I often wonder why folks like Pick6 mostly participate in the Rachel/Zen threads.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Now that Pick6 has made his/her obligatory appearance in a post-RA/post-Zen thread, can ghostyapper be far behind?

I often wonder why folks like Pick6 mostly participate in the Rachel/Zen threads.

They (RA/Zen) evoke the most passion? I'd assume this site gets a spike in traffic each time they race, no?

[DeanT]

Since we are in a Rachel thread and we have seen her not at her best lately. It's a good time for this monster. I loved this race. Pure unadulterated talent.

6TJTnJSrSBc

[JustRalph]

I hope the Comments live up to the attention

[Relwob Owner]

Since we are in a Rachel thread and we have seen her not at her best lately. It's a good time for this monster. I loved this race. Pure unadulterated talent.

6TJTnJSrSBc


Nice timing Dean.....just amazing

[DeanT]

A sub thirteen second last eighth while cantering the last hundred yards off a mile in 33. She could have prolly galloped out a mile and a quarter in 202.

Amazing animal!

[tzipi]

Correct.

She was better then, but this is now.

Not really. And it's effective, as demonstrated Sunday. And this was not the first time, although this was probably the cheapest horse to beat her to date, IMO.


14 second final 1/8 = "nothing left in the tank."

No, but she did not win, either, which is basically the point of the connections entering her.

This is certainly not new thinking. It was quite effective against horses far better than RA. Dr. Fager comes to mind.

Well, I certainly understood that Forego was not vulnerable to a rabbit. In fact he benefited from it if anything. RA is quite vulnerable to a rabbit. This will be the gameplan going forward in beating RA. It is quite obvious.

Ok you can think that they never tried to push RA upfront before and that this is a new "game plan" :rolleyes: . Try watching ALL her races before commenting on her.
If you did watch all her races before you would easily know she has tossed away rabbits and also doesn't need the lead and can sit off teh pace and win huge. A rabbit is not the answer with her. But thats been said here recently to you.

[Charlie D]

You'll notice Calvin is not even trying to rush her up to lead in that race.

[classhandicapper]

The fact remains she has come off the pace to win multiple times...she was four lengths off the pace in third in the Mother Goose and won by almost 20 lengths.

She is not a need-to-lead type who would be the most vulnerable to whabbits and whatnot.

One problem has been that even when she has rated, she has tended to get drawn into it the pace while it was still hot. I think they were trying to get her out of that this year (at least based on what I read), but they did it this time anyway.

I think what it came down to was that neither camp wanted to concede the lead in an average/slow pace and then try to pass the other through the stretch at 10F. So they both went for it assuming it was unlikely anyone could beat them late.

I actually think that if Zenyatta (or another Grade 1 closer) was in the race, it would have developed much differently. Then both would have been so afraid to use their horses early, they would have backed the pace down.

[cpitt84]

Since we are in a Rachel thread and we have seen her not at her best lately. It's a good time for this monster. I loved this race. Pure unadulterated talent.

6TJTnJSrSBc

god, I miss seeing the old rachel so much.

:(

[cpitt84]

You'll notice Calvin is not even trying to rush her up to lead in that race.

good point. The more i think about it, the more I have to say the way calvin ran rachel got her into some trouble. I think because of the pressure for this race and knowing LAT was a front runner, calvin went fast to the lead. You could almost sense their insecurity about it..the move so quickly to the front "we have to keep up with LAT", completely forgetting that the horses behind may have more left in the final furlong.

[tzipi]

god, I miss seeing the old rachel so much.

:(

That was a fantastic race. I wish every race could be like that.

[cpitt84]

That was a fantastic race. I wish every race could be like that.

I know, me too! I really miss watching her races and thinking, "this is when she pulls away from the group!" Now, I just want her to win the race! Before, it was more of a question of winning by how much.

[Pick6]

The fact remains she has come off the pace to win multiple times...she was four lengths off the pace in third in the Mother Goose and won by almost 20 lengths.

She is not a need-to-lead type who would be the most vulnerable to whabbits and whatnot.
Then I wonder what happened Sunday to basically discard that tact and get involved on the front end, resulting in a very tired horse and a loss.

Were the connections afraid of LAT toe-ropig the field? I really doubt it. If RA were capable of coming off the pace, then I think we would have seen it.

[Pick6]

Now that Pick6 has made his/her obligatory appearance in a post-RA/post-Zen thread, can ghostyapper be far behind?

I often wonder why folks like Pick6 mostly participate in the Rachel/Zen threads.
We have been through this before, and it is not true.

[Pick6]

Yeah that's me. One to shy away from giving my opinion on races beforehand.
When you have a true "position" maybe you can post it. I've yet to see one here.

[PaceAdvantage]

Then I wonder what happened Sunday to basically discard that tact and get involved on the front end, resulting in a very tired horse and a loss.

Were the connections afraid of LAT toe-ropig the field? I really doubt it. If RA were capable of coming off the pace, then I think we would have seen it.It was a valid theory to take it to your only opponent (on paper). LAT is an early type like Rachel...thus they decided to go for the lead and control the race from the start, floating LAT wide in the process...not an entirely terrible idea, and one advocated by a few pundits prior to the race...she and Calvin succeeded in taking out what they perceived to be the main threat but did not count on another coming late...

Of course, if LAT were allowed to get out rather easily to the front, while Calvin and Rachel chased a length or two back in second, and LAT wins the race, then the critics would wonder why Calvin and Rachel would let LAT have such an easy time of it early...

[Pick6]

Ok you can think that they never tried to push RA upfront before and that this is a new "game plan" :rolleyes: . Try watching ALL her races before commenting on her.
If you did watch all her races before you would easily know she has tossed away rabbits and also doesn't need the lead and can sit off teh pace and win huge. A rabbit is not the answer with her. But thats been said here recently to you.
If all her races had equal relevance, we would not be discussing this matter.

Her recent efforts have more relevance, no?

Simple gameplan to get her beat: rabbit+closer.

[46zilzal]

A friend who writes for the Saratogan wrote me: "I remain firm in my belief she left her heart and soul behind her in the Woodward last year."

[Dahoss9698]

When you have a true "position" maybe you can post it. I've yet to see one here.

That's because you are a troll and you don't want to see it.

[cj]

If all her races had equal relevance, we would not be discussing this matter.

Her recent efforts have more relevance, no?

Simple gameplan to get her beat: rabbit+closer.

You will have to search a long ways to find rabbits capable of giving her a hard time. Those types don't grow on trees.

[Pick6]

That's because you are a troll and you don't want to see it.
Wrong and wrong.

I truly would like to see your true positions on races before they are run. It would give me a general understanding of your ability and opportunity to keep tab of your record. If you choose not to do that, fine with me.

[cj]

Wrong and wrong.

I truly would like to see your true positions on races before they are run. It would give me a general understanding of your ability and opportunity to keep tab of your record. If you choose not to do that, fine with me.

Just check the only11 vs dahoss thread in the Selections forum. It is pretty tough to argue with his ROI over a large number of bets.

[Pick6]

Just check the only11 vs dahoss thread in the Selections forum. It is pretty tough to argue with his ROI over a large number of bets.
I'll do that.

Is it just those 2?

[Dahoss9698]

Wrong and wrong.

I truly would like to see your true positions on races before they are run. It would give me a general understanding of your ability and opportunity to keep tab of your record. If you choose not to do that, fine with me.

Go into the selections room and take a look for yourself. 120 races, positive ROI.

Your turn. Please show me one instance of your taking a stance pre race on this board.

[GaryG]

Wrong and wrong.

I truly would like to see your true positions on races before they are run. It would give me a general understanding of your ability and opportunity to keep tab of your record. If you choose not to do that, fine with me.His record is here for all to see. Where is yours?

[tzipi]

If all her races had equal relevance, we would not be discussing this matter.

Her recent efforts have more relevance, no?

Simple gameplan to get her beat: rabbit+closer.


:rolleyes: Once again Pick6 disregards her past races where she was busted upfront and still pulled away. You sound ridiculous sayig she's a one tactic horse. You have never even seen her races obviously. You're just here to make up lies and bash a horse. IF you did actually watch all her races, you would know she can:
1)Put away rabbits while up with them and still win big. One hard 1 1/4 race doesn't negate that fact. You act like she lost by 10+.
2)Sit off a pace or speed upfront and close on the far turn to win.

Your new "game plan" has already been done before. It's mostly failed.
Keep losing races. Your anger,post race know-it-all picks and made up lies about RA and her running shows it. Why else say all this made up BS? Obviously I'm not the only one here to see it.

[Dahoss9698]

His record is here for all to see. Where is yours?

Ever notice how quiet these guys get when their bs gets called?

[Pick6]

:rolleyes: Once again Pick6 disregards her past races where she was busted upfront and still pulled away. You sound ridiculous sayig she's a one tactic horse. You have never even seen her races obviously. You're just here to make up lies and bash a horse. IF you did actually watch all her races, you would know she can:
1)Put away rabbits while up with them and still win big. One hard 1 1/4 race doesn't negate that fact. You act like she lost by 10+.
2)Sit off a pace or speed upfront and close on the far turn to win.

Your new "game plan" has already been done before. It's mostly failed.
Keep losing races. Your anger,post race know-it-all picks and made up lies about RA and her running shows it. Why else say all this made up BS? Obviously I'm not the only one here to see it.
It's more than one race.

She is not the same horse now, obviously.

She ran a 14 second final 1/8.

She got beat by an optional claimer.

With a true rabbit, the pace would have been faster, and the result would have probably been worse for RA.

It is not a "new" gameplan. This tactic has been successful against horses far better than RA.

The tactic worked, and it has strong likilehood of working again. Trainers aren't dumb. If they have a rabbit+closer, this will be the gameplan. Simple.

[Pick6]

Go into the selections room and take a look for yourself. 120 races, positive ROI.

Your turn. Please show me one instance of your taking a stance pre race on this board.
Again, use search function.

Tell you what: I'll ask you for your pre-race opinions on selected races. We'll see how that stacks up vs. my picks, which I will post against yours.

I am expecting the proverbial no position positions.

And what % chance to win did you give RA and Persistently, respectively? it seems odd to have no position on this race, setting up as it did.

[thaskalos]

Again, use search function.

Tell you what: I'll ask you for your pre-race opinions on selected races. We'll see how that stacks up vs. my picks, which I will post against yours.

I am expecting the proverbial no position positions.

And what % chance to win did you give RA and Persistently, respectively?I sense another handicapping contest brewing...

[Tom]

The winner of the King's Bishop came home in 13.72 the day before.
So, after running a mile and an eighth and wide, she is .28 slower than a top class sprinter.

[GaryG]

I sense another handicapping contest brewing...No, this one is all talky and no ballsy (to use one of PA's expressions).

[thaskalos]

No, this one is all talky and no ballsy (to use one of PA's expressions).I don't know...this contest could be ripe for the taking.

I think that Dahoss "peaked" against only11.

[Pick6]

The winner of the King's Bishop came home in 13.72 the day before.
So, after running a mile and an eighth and wide, she is .28 slower than a top class sprinter.
After running a 44 opening 1/2. Apples and oranges. And if RA is turning into a sprinter, why are they bothering with 1 1/4 races?

The Travers winner came home the final 1/4 in 26 2/5. Not sure what this splits for the final 1/8, I am guessing around 13 2/5.

The pacesetter in the Travers, Miner's Reserve, went 1:11 2/5 for 3/4, and finished the final 1/4 in 28 3/5, which I guess amounts to about a 14 4/5 final 1/8. I would guess Cohen basically did not pursue the final 1/8.

If RA had gone 3/5 faster on the opening 3/4, her final 1/8 would have been worse than 14. If you want to compare her with Miner's Reserve, go for it.

[Tom]

After running a 44 opening 1/2. Apples and oranges. And if RA is turning into a sprinter, why are they bothering with 1 1/4 races?

The Travers winner came home the final 1/4 in 26 2/5. Not sure what this splits for the final 1/8, I am guessing around 13 2/5.

The pacesetter in the Travers, Miner's Reserve, went 1:11 2/5 for 3/4, and finished the final 1/4 in 28 3/5, which I guess amounts to about a 14 4/5 final 1/8. I would guess Cohen basically did not pursue the final 1/8.

If RA had gone 3/5 faster on the opening 3/4, her final 1/8 would have been worse than 14. If you want to compare her with Miner's Reserve, go for it.

Well, when you cherry pick the facts and ignore others, your story has a lot of merit.

I'll stick with reality. :bang:

[Pick6]

Well, when you cherry pick the facts and ignore others, your story has a lot of merit.

I'll stick with reality. :bang:
Cherry-picking so-called cherry-picked stats. Even better.

[Dahoss9698]

Again, use search function.

Tell you what: I'll ask you for your pre-race opinions on selected races. We'll see how that stacks up vs. my picks, which I will post against yours.

I am expecting the proverbial no position positions.

And what % chance to win did you give RA and Persistently, respectively? it seems odd to have no position on this race, setting up as it did.

I get it. Apparently I'm supposed to have an opinion on every race that happens. I had an opinion on 120 races, showed a profit on them, but somehow in your eyes that translates to never having an opinion.

Really hard to figure out what is going on here.

[Pick6]

I get it. Apparently I'm supposed to have an opinion on every race that happens. I had an opinion on 120 races, showed a profit on them, but somehow in your eyes that translates to never having an opinion.

Really hard to figure out what is going on here.
It's pretty clear. I will identify some major races going forward and see if you have a position in the race, or if you have no interest. I will then identify my position on the race, and we can compare results.

[Dahoss9698]

It's pretty clear. I will identify some major races going forward and see if you have a position in the race, or if you have no interest. I will then identify my position on the race, and we can compare results.

Pretend for a second that you aren't trolling. Yesterday you asked where my pre race opinions were. You were alerted to them and for some reason you are acting like that whole thing didn't happen. I realize ignoring anything and everything that conflicts with the agenda is chapter 1 in the troll handbook, but come on.

I have absolutely zero interest in comparing opinions with you. Especially considering I can't recall you ever having one pre race and you have yet to provide evidence of one. When I have an opinion, I usually provide it. A simple look through threads about races will confirm this.

But I agree, what you are doing is pretty clear.

[JustRalph]

Again, use search function.

Tell you what: I'll ask you for your pre-race opinions on selected races. We'll see how that stacks up vs. my picks, which I will post against yours.

I am expecting the proverbial no position positions.



this shit is getting to be boring. why does it always have to come down to this stuff.

You guys might as well go on Chatroulette and swing it around and decide who's is bigger

[Dahoss9698]

this shit is getting to be boring. why does it always have to come down to this stuff.

You guys might as well go on Chatroulette and swing it around and decide who's is bigger

I agree Ralph, but what would you like me to do? Everytime Rachel or Zenyatta runs these guys come out of hiding with their post race opinions. I merely asked where they are before the races.

Aren't we all a lot smarter after the fact? It's great to discuss stuff after the fact. But if you aren't on record as having an opinion beforehand, isn't it kind of pathetic to act like a know it all afterwards?

[Charlie D]

this shit is getting to be boring.

Agree JR

I merely asked where they are before the races.




A reasonable question to ask Dahoss.

[Pick6]

Pretend for a second that you aren't trolling. Yesterday you asked where my pre race opinions were. You were alerted to them and for some reason you are acting like that whole thing didn't happen. I realize ignoring anything and everything that conflicts with the agenda is chapter 1 in the troll handbook, but come on.

I have absolutely zero interest in comparing opinions with you. Especially considering I can't recall you ever having one pre race and you have yet to provide evidence of one. When I have an opinion, I usually provide it. A simple look through threads about races will confirm this.

But I agree, what you are doing is pretty clear.
Here were the rules of your contest:

Rules

The contest will last from July 17th and end after the last race from Del Mar on August 22nd. The contest days are every Saturday and Sunday. You get 10 $2 Win/Place bets on any thoroughbred track running every Saturday and Sunday during the contest. Bets need to be in by 12:30pm eastern every race day. If your bet scratches, you get post time favorite. If you bet an entry you get both halves. Please post the bets in this thread. The highest profit or lowest amount of money lost at the end will be the winner.

I will try and update the scores after everyday, but I can't promise it. When putting your wagers in this thread, please indicate track, race, horse number. Only11 wins and Dahoss has to leave the board for good. Dahoss wins and Only11 donates $100 to a charity Dahoss chooses. Good luck.
Frankly, I probably don't get out to the races nearly as often as you, so this is why I will be assigning which races I will ask for your opinion. You are free to offer your position, or "no opinion." I will reply with a position, or possibly no opinion if for some reason odds changes or some other change dictates no bet. I may also offer a conditional bet, such as "$100 to win on X if post time odds are 3-1 or higher." If you do not think that is reasonable, then I understand the level of handicapping involved here.

I will most likely choose major races, such as weekend stakes or BC stuff, and probably a few races contested on pick 6 carryover days or weekends. Assuming you follow the races every day, these races will pose no surprise for you, and you will have most likely analyzed them as you would any other race. I will not be asking you for your opinions on other races, which if I were you I would not offer anyways as you are only hurting yourself.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Here were the rules of your contest:

Frankly, I probably don't get out to the races nearly as often as you, so this is why I will be assigning which races I will ask for your opinion. You are free to offer your position, or "no opinion." I will reply with a position, or possibly no opinion if for some reason odds changes or some other change dictates no bet. I may also offer a conditional bet, such as "$100 to win on X if post time odds are 3-1 or higher." If you do not think that is reasonable, then I understand the level of handicapping involved here.

I will most likely choose major races, such as weekend stakes or BC stuff, and probably a few races contested on pick 6 carryover days or weekends. Assuming you follow the races every day, these races will pose no surprise for you, and you will have most likely analyzed them as you would any other race. I will not be asking you for your opinions on other races, which if I were you I would not offer anyways as you are only hurting yourself.

Seems overly complicated, but I guess daHoss will decide that. If he wins (which I would bet on), will you leave the board?

[Pick6]

Seems overly complicated, but I guess daHoss will decide that. If he wins (which I would bet on), will you leave the board?
I don't see a need to perceive this as a form of competition. For the major races he complained that I never offered pre-race opinions. I am now going to post my pre-race opinions along with his, if he so chooses.

[Saratoga_Mike]

I don't see a need to perceive this as a form of competition. For the major races he complained that I never offered pre-race opinions. I am now going to post my pre-race opinions along with his, if he so chooses.

That's too funny. If you "don't see a need to perceive this as a form of competition," then why not just post your picks and we can all review them in a few weeks? Why involve daHoss at all? Did you review his performance in the other contest? I was actually shocked by how well he did. Do you realize how difficult it is to show a profit in that type of competition?

[Pick6]

That's too funny. If you "don't see a need to perceive this as a form of competition," then why not just post your picks and we can all review them in a few weeks? Why involve daHoss at all? Did you review his performance in the other contest? I was actually shocked by how well he did. Do you realize how difficult it is to show a profit in that type of competition?
He was the one who wanted to see pre-race opinions. This is in response to his request. I only ask that he offer his pre-race opinions as well.

There is no time frame to this, thus no actual form of competition.

[Dahoss9698]

He was the one who wanted to see pre-race opinions. This is in response to his request. I only ask that he offer his pre-race opinions as well.

There is no time frame to this, thus no actual form of competition.

Why do you continue to deny that I already do this?

[tzipi]

With a true rabbit, the pace would have been faster, and the result would have probably been worse for RA.

:rolleyes: Whatever, you're right, LAT has no good speed and RA could've has sat out a loose rabbit. Happy? Enjoy your posts pick6.

[Pick6]

Why do you continue to deny that I already do this?
You were denying I do this. I just want your opinions on those races where I offer an opinion, for comparative purposes. Fair enough?

[Dahoss9698]

You were denying I do this. I just want your opinions on those races where I offer an opinion, for comparative purposes. Fair enough?

Because you don't. Instead of deflecting, please provide the last example of you providing a pre race opinion. Should be pretty simple to do right?

[Saratoga_Mike]

He was the one who wanted to see pre-race opinions. This is in response to his request. I only ask that he offer his pre-race opinions as well.

There is no time frame to this, thus no actual form of competition.

If there's no timeframe, how will we ever judge your performance (even in isolation - forget daHoss)? People that are fearful of timeframes are fearful of results.

[JustRalph]

I agree Ralph, but what would you like me to do? Everytime Rachel or Zenyatta runs these guys come out of hiding with their post race opinions. I merely asked where they are before the races.

Aren't we all a lot smarter after the fact? It's great to discuss stuff after the fact. But if you aren't on record as having an opinion beforehand, isn't it kind of pathetic to act like a know it all afterwards?

Point well taken :ThmbUp:

[PaceAdvantage]

Any more useless posts from Pick6 on whose dick is bigger will be deleted from this thread, as they are completely and totally off the topic.

And Dahoss has a point about the trolling around here...it's out of control, especially after a Zen or RA race...coming out of the woodwork indeed!

[Pick6]

Because you don't. Instead of deflecting, please provide the last example of you providing a pre race opinion. Should be pretty simple to do right?
It was. I actually provided 2, but they were deleted. I wonder why.

[PaceAdvantage]

It was. I actually provided 2, but they were deleted. I wonder why.It's all spelled out in post #104. I say what I mean and I mean what I say.