Next up for Rachel

[cpitt84]

What's next for Rachel?

Rachel shines at 1 1/8 and the Beldame would be perfect for her. Especially if she runs again with Life at Ten and Persistently.

If they all do run together, do you think calvin (or perhaps another jockey) should run her so much in front?

Or maybe retire her?

thoughts?

[tzipi]

I'm sure they'll goto the Beldame and it won't be that kind of crazy racing out front again.

[cpitt84]

I'm sure they'll goto the Beldame and it won't be that kind of crazy racing out front again.

Yeah, I remember when I saw RA and LAT racing so far out, I had a bad feeling about it. It just seemed a little too much and when I saw Peristently making her move, I knew what was about to happen.

Do you think calvin will be the rider?

[Lasix67]

Nothing against Calvin, but I'm wondering if it wouldn't hurt to try a different rider that can relax Rachel and get her to rate

[cpitt84]

Nothing against Calvin, but I'm wondering if it wouldn't hurt to try a different rider that can relax Rachel and get her to rate

By what you have seen, what is Calvin doing that is hurting Rachel? How is he keeping her from being relaxed?

[Audioslavery]

By what you have seen, what is Calvin doing that is hurting Rachel? How is he keeping her from being relaxed?

He whips his horses mercilessly, she was spent yesterday and he still kept whipping her. It didn't seem like he really had any idea about how fit Rachel really is.

[cpitt84]

He whips his horses mercilessly, she was spent yesterday and he still kept whipping her. It didn't seem like he really had any idea about how fit Rachel really is.

True. Even the announcers after the race mentioned this. He did that in the woodward, too. Perhaps he acts out his desperation but its still not right.

Not sure who they would put in there, though.

[Charlie D]

If i was fortunate enough to have a say in the matter. It would be another crack at 10f in JCGC at Belmont on October 2nd.

[Dahoss9698]

He whips his horses mercilessly, she was spent yesterday and he still kept whipping her. It didn't seem like he really had any idea about how fit Rachel really is.

Speaking of not having any idea about stuff....you do realize Borel uses one of the new whips that probably couldn't hurt a fly right?

[nearco]

If i was fortunate enough to have a say in the matter. It would be another crack at 10f in JCGC at Belmont on October 2nd.

:eek: :eek:

Surely you jest? What rationale would be behind that, given Sunday's run?
10f against males? on the Big Sandy?

[Charlie D]

No jest nearco.

What rationale is there not to give it another crack, she wasn't beaten out of sight like Life At Ten.

[Lasix67]

By what you have seen, what is Calvin doing that is hurting Rachel? How is he keeping her from being relaxed?

The fractions speak for themselves

[thespaah]

I watched the MSG+ telecast of the Personal Ensign.
Post race, Andy Serling said the final time was slow. He is correct.
With that said, I took a look at times for other dirt races over the last few days.
It looks to me like not only has the SAR main track been speed favoring but has yielded slow times as well. The Travers was contested in over 2:02. The King's Bishop went 1:23 and change for 7/8th's. That's slow for Grade I's...
I noted that last 1/4 times were slower than usual. The Personal Ensign's last Q was 26 seconds. They were walking.
I will theorize that not only was the edge worn off RA with front end pressure from LAT, but the tiring strip may have done her in.

[Grits]

True. Even the announcers after the race mentioned this. He did that in the woodward, too. Perhaps he acts out his desperation but its still not right.

Not sure who they would put in there, though.

One says it and another declares it truth.:faint:

Calvin even acts out his desperation on horses. Lord, where do you come up with this @#$%?

[Robert Fischer]

Speaking of not having any idea about stuff....you do realize Borel uses one of the new whips that probably couldn't hurt a fly right?

which is probably why he has to whip her mercilessly

it's a vicious cycle :bang::bang:


it's weird hearing Borel blamed for RA turning out to have a flat 4yo.
Borel IIRC got on RA in the mornings back around the time when she "woke up" for the first time as a 3yo filly. You rarely see that type of electricity between a horse and rider, and now that Borel hasn't even been working her, and she's been primarily doing those slower strength building works under Blasi's strength program, the animal cruelty guys are out for RA the Princess...

[cpitt84]

One says it and another declares it truth.:faint:

Calvin even acts out his desperation on horses. Lord, where do you come up with this @#$%?

Many of the members on this board react with condescending and rude statements and questions. It's really annoying and frustrating. Just like after a game of football, I like to come on here and discuss a win or loss. If its so difficult for you to not belittle people, don't say anything.

[Cardus]

@=$% means "idea".

Where did you come up with this idea?

[cpitt84]

@=$% means "idea".

Where did you come up with this idea?

Riiiight :D

[Dahoss9698]

Many of the members on this board react with condescending and rude statements and questions. It's really annoying and frustrating. Just like after a game of football, I like to come on here and discuss a win or loss. If its so difficult for you to not belittle people, don't say anything.

Understand that the reaction comes from comments like Borel was acting out of desperation. Trainers will tell you the whip Borel is using can't hurt her unless maybe he is hitting her in the face which he obviously isn't.

[Grits]

Many of the members on this board react with condescending and rude statements and questions. It's really annoying and frustrating. Just like after a game of football, I like to come on here and discuss a win or loss. If its so difficult for you to not belittle people, don't say anything.

I'm not sure this is necessarily true, and I'm certain its not when people make sensible comments based in logical thought--other than something regarding Calvin Borel's desperation or some other such foolishness.

You like Zenyatta--get it. You think she's far and away superior to Rachel Alexandra. Get that one, too. These are opinions, and that's fine. But, you don't know jack about Calvin Borel's riding skills, or a lot of other things about this sport. Its beyond obvious. You would do well to read a great deal and learn more. And this is a very good place to do so. I don't mean to belittle you, I'm trying to make you see the need to read and learn from others instead of coming up with something so far out, then hitting submit.

[Nikki1997]

Trainers will tell you the whip Borel is using can't hurt her unless maybe he is hitting her in the face which he obviously isn't.

Would you like to bend over for the demo to prove your point ???

--Mikki

[Dahoss9698]

Would you like to bend over for the demo to prove your point ???

--Mikki

Only if you promise to take a bath beforehand.

[Relwob Owner]

I'm not sure this is necessarily true, and I'm certain its not when people make sensible comments based in logical thought--other than something regarding Calvin Borel's desperation or some other such foolishness.

You like Zenyatta--get it. You think she's far and away superior to Rachel Alexandra. Get that one, too. These are opinions, and that's fine. But, you don't know jack about Calvin Borel's riding skills, or a lot of other things about this sport. Its beyond obvious. You would do well to read a great deal and learn more. And this is a very good place to do so. I don't mean to belittle you, I'm trying to make you see the need to read and learn from others instead of coming up with something so far out, then hitting submit.


Your whole post belittled him/her so if that if you "didnt mean to", you failed miserably.....your post is one of the most condescending posts I have seen on here in a while....just because you dont agree with someone's post, doesnt mean their opinion is "foolish" and I dont think your opinion of how much more that poster needs to read and learn is something anyone on here cares about, to be quite honest......I honestly think it is fair to question Borel's skills...outside of Churchill, I dont find him to be that strong....

[Dahoss9698]

Your whole post belittled him/her so if that if you "didnt mean to", you failed miserably.....your post is one of the most condescending posts I have seen on here in a while....just because you dont agree with someone's post, doesnt mean their opinion is "foolish" and I dont think your opinion of how much more that poster needs to read and learn is something anyone on here cares about, to be quite honest......I honestly think it is fair to question Borel's skills...outside of Churchill, I dont find him to be that strong....

I agree in regards to Borel. Outside of Churchill I find him to be pretty average.

It doesn't mean he was desperate yesterday though and the implication that he was wailing away on a spent filly is incorrect IMO.

[PaceAdvantage]

Only if you promise to take a bath beforehand.I have to admit, that was a funny retort.

[Relwob Owner]

I agree in regards to Borel. Outside of Churchill I find him to be pretty average.

It doesn't mean he was desperate yesterday though and the implication that he was wailing away on a spent filly is incorrect IMO.


I totally agree with you about yesterday....I also think that your previous statements about the new whip are on target and many are not aware of it or ignore it....question for you-do you think a jock change could be coming? I dont really have a strong opinion about Borel and his effect on her but just get the feeling they are going to switch.

[PaceAdvantage]

It doesn't mean he was desperate yesterday though and the implication that he was wailing away on a spent filly is incorrect IMO.I agree. I also am tired of hearing how the fractions in the PE were suicidal. They were not, unless someone wants to break out all the other races over the weekend and show how that track was very slow, which is, I guess, a possibility given the horrendous time they came home in the King's Bishop (13.72 for the final eighth!!!!)

[Relwob Owner]

I have to admit, that was a funny retort.

Couldnt agree more....the quick response time made it even better....

[Robert Fischer]

No jest nearco.

What rationale is there not to give it another crack, she wasn't beaten out of sight like Life At Ten.

I like it.

If she is sound, they ought to go about pushing her limitations. Let Rachel tell them what Breeder's Cup race she is pointing toward.

[Dahoss9698]

I totally agree with you about yesterday....I also think that your previous statements about the new whip are on target and many are not aware of it or ignore it....question for you-do you think a jock change could be coming? I dont really have a strong opinion about Borel and his effect on her but just get the feeling they are going to switch.

I thought they should have made a switch after the 1st Churchill race this year. Not because of anything Borel did wrong. Just think switching things up sometimes will wake a horse up.

A classic example of this and I have mentioned it many times is Sonny Hine taking Shane Sellers off of Skip Away. Hine talked about it after Skip Away won the Classic in 1997.

[Grits]

Your whole post belittled him/her so if that if you "didnt mean to", you failed miserably.....your post is one of the most condescending posts I have seen on here in a while....just because you dont agree with someone's post, doesnt mean their opinion is "foolish" and I dont think your opinion of how much more that poster needs to read and learn is something anyone on here cares about, to be quite honest......I honestly think it is fair to question Borel's skills...outside of Churchill, I dont find him to be that strong....

I don't care what you think. And I made it clear that I didn't care several months ago in a thread about Aqueduct. Put my butt on ignore or don't respond to another thing I post. Your call, I could care less.

This young person is in his/her early twenties if I recall and has been following the sport for not quite a long time, but you, sir, wouldn't know this because you took a long hiatus and returned only recently. CPitt84 has been here since your absence.

EOC.

[Robert Fischer]

A jock change at this point would be IDIOTIC.

why would anyone get away from Borel if any thoughts still entertain the possibility of a Classic @ CD ??

how would a savvy racing fan/horseplayer even take a jockey change at this point?? purely an ego thing?? sour grapes over "inheriting calvin" with the acquisition of RA? General ignorance of jockeys(such as those who let Robbie continue to ride Curlin after the Derby probably costing them the Classic as well as a better KYD result)?? Simply up scouring the i-net for advice jockeys?
Somebody threatening to go public with Borel moving Rachel up after Wiggins urged him to "wake her up" ??
A complex plot where Kiefer Sutherland attempts to cancel a out-of-pool wager, after his horse breaks through the gate but a previous 24 hours has already expired?? :mad:

[Relwob Owner]

I don't care what you think. And I made it clear that I didn't care several months ago in a thread about Aqueduct. Put my butt on ignore or don't respond to another thing I post. Your call, I could care less.

This young person is in his/her early twenties if I recall and has been following the sport for not quite a long time, but you, sir, wouldn't know this because you took a long hiatus and returned only recently. CPitt84 has been here since your absence.

EOC.


Flattering that I have made such an impact and been noticed so much by you.....for someone who "could care less" you sure do have a sharp memory of me and my participation on here.

A young person comes on here, posts and is greeted by you and your condescending posts....wonderful. With people like you carrying the torch and being the fans of our great sport, is it any wonder we cant get young people involved? You seem to have that poster and their age and knowledge base pegged so instead of attacking them and calling them foolish, why not try to help them and make them as smart as you are(or claim to be)?


I must go now and start reading and learning more about the sport or else, who knows, maybe I will be talked down to by you if I say something that you dont agree with or isnt up to your standards.....

[Robert Fischer]

ch'mon LEE!!

ch'mon u didn't tell me Rick-E-Tan roll like this :jump:


if someone takes a steaming dump and bashes a jockey in the process they are fair game

[Dahoss9698]

A jock change at this point would be IDIOTIC.

why would anyone get away from Borel if any thoughts still entertain the possibility of a Classic @ CD ??

how would a savvy racing fan/horseplayer even take a jockey change at this point?? purely an ego thing?? sour grapes over "inheriting calvin" with the acquisition of RA? General ignorance of jockeys(such as those who let Robbie continue to ride Curlin after the Derby probably costing them the Classic as well as a better KYD result)?? Simply up scouring the i-net for advice jockeys?
Somebody threatening to go public with Borel moving Rachel up after Wiggins urged him to "wake her up" ??
A complex plot where Kiefer Sutherland attempts to cancel a out-of-pool wager, after his horse breaks through the gate but a previous 24 hours has already expired?? :mad:

Anyone?

[Nikki1997]

Only if you promise to take a bath beforehand.

I only ever have my minions deal with issues like this .

We are very sanitary people.

Since it is your butt, I am assuming it will be properly attended to before the flogging.

Thanks in advance---Mikki

[Dahoss9698]

I only ever have my minions deal with issues like this .

We are very sanitary people.

Since it is your butt, I am assuming it will be properly attended to before the flogging.

Thanks in advance---Mikki

Don't quit your day job. Comedy isn't your thing. But I've told you that before.

[cj]

Don't quit your day job. Comedy isn't your thing. But I've told you that before.

Her sister is much funnier.

[Nikki1997]

Don't quit your day job. Comedy isn't your thing. But I've told you that before.


Yes, you are tediously redundant .

But for once you got it right, accidently of course--there was NO comedy intended .

[Nikki1997]

Her sister is much funnier.


You could not tell one of us from the other---Mikki

[PaceAdvantage]

You could not tell one of us from the other---MikkiI think they have drugs for that these days. Clozapine most likely.

[the little guy]

I watched the MSG+ telecast of the Personal Ensign.
Post race, Andy Serling said the final time was slow. He is correct.
With that said, I took a look at times for other dirt races over the last few days.
It looks to me like not only has the SAR main track been speed favoring but has yielded slow times as well. The Travers was contested in over 2:02. The King's Bishop went 1:23 and change for 7/8th's. That's slow for Grade I's...
I noted that last 1/4 times were slower than usual. The Personal Ensign's last Q was 26 seconds. They were walking.
I will theorize that not only was the edge worn off RA with front end pressure from LAT, but the tiring strip may have done her in.



We didn't do an MSG+ broadcast of the Personal Ensign and I NEVER said the final time was " slow " and in fact never commented on it one way or another.

I don't understand where this stuff comes from.

[PaceAdvantage]

We didn't do an MSG+ broadcast of the Personal Ensign and I NEVER said the final time was " slow " and in fact never commented on it one way or another.

I don't understand where this stuff comes from.It's the Internet. People are free to make up anything they wish. We see that played out here every time Zenyatta or Rachel exits the starting gate.

[breezing]

Speaking of not having any idea about stuff....you do realize Borel uses one of the new whips that probably couldn't hurt a fly right?
i see a lot of folks saying this but you do realize it is still possible to break the skin and raise welts with the new whips, don't you? last year the jockeys in southern california were reminded of this when one of them was fined for being a little heavy handed with the new whip. not sure why borel was hitting on a horse who he said had nothing left but i'm sure he had his reasons.

[cpitt84]

Your whole post belittled him/her so if that if you "didnt mean to", you failed miserably.....your post is one of the most condescending posts I have seen on here in a while....just because you dont agree with someone's post, doesnt mean their opinion is "foolish" and I dont think your opinion of how much more that poster needs to read and learn is something anyone on here cares about, to be quite honest......I honestly think it is fair to question Borel's skills...outside of Churchill, I dont find him to be that strong....

Thanks for this post since it validates my feelings about it.

;)

[cpitt84]

I'm not sure this is necessarily true, and I'm certain its not when people make sensible comments based in logical thought--other than something regarding Calvin Borel's desperation or some other such foolishness.

You like Zenyatta--get it. You think she's far and away superior to Rachel Alexandra. Get that one, too. These are opinions, and that's fine. But, you don't know jack about Calvin Borel's riding skills, or a lot of other things about this sport. Its beyond obvious. You would do well to read a great deal and learn more. And this is a very good place to do so. I don't mean to belittle you, I'm trying to make you see the need to read and learn from others instead of coming up with something so far out, then hitting submit.

People on this board are super serious about their horse racing! :D

You know there are other ways of disagreeing with a viewpoint than saying something along the lines of, "what are you on?!" or "you don't know *#*!@"

I perceived Calvin as desperate for this win since it meant a lot for him and Rachel. It meant a lot for the future of her campaign. A lot was at stake. That's how I saw it.

But, to people who have studied horseracing for 20 years, this analysis seems beyond silly, possibly insane!

Relax! That's how I saw it and I would hope people on this board would lighten up. Treat others how you would want to be treated. Most people don't want to feel talked down to.

[Grits]

People on this board are super serious about their horse racing! :D

You know there are other ways of disagreeing with a viewpoint than saying something along the lines of, "what are you on?!" or "you don't know *#*!@"

I perceived Calvin as desperate for this win since it meant a lot for him and Rachel. It meant a lot for the future of her campaign. A lot was at stake. That's how I saw it.

But, to people who have studied horseracing for 20 years, this analysis seems beyond silly, possibly insane!

Relax! That's how I saw it and I would hope people on this board would lighten up. Treat others how you would want to be treated. Most people don't want to feel talked down to.

I have a really busy day ahead, one that'll, honestly, involve a quite serious medical procedure. But before I leave my house, let me say, since I sent you a private pm indicating that I was sorry, apologizing if I offended you, or made you uncomfortable CPitt, there is nothing wrong in learning about a new sport. As you indicated to me, though, horseracing will not ever be your forte', you're a woman interested in football and hockey, and only interested in the two mares--Rachel Alexandra and Zenyatta.

I'll try to post my words more gently. Maybe you'll come to realize there's far more to the sport of thoroughbred racing than this mare and this filly--and you may want to ask someone why one's a mare, why the other's a filly--is another question one could pose that is in the learning stage of the sport.

I relax, just fine. It takes a whole lot more than a horseracing messageboard to trip my trigger, sweetheart. And for the moment, I'm on the way out the door to deal with it.

Take care, and enjoy Pace Advantage.

[Dahoss9698]

i see a lot of folks saying this but you do realize it is still possible to break the skin and raise welts with the new whips, don't you? last year the jockeys in southern california were reminded of this when one of them was fined for being a little heavy handed with the new whip. not sure why borel was hitting on a horse who he said had nothing left but i'm sure he had his reasons.

I'm just going by what trainers have told me. It's possible to break the skin with pretty much anything. Still doesn't mean Borel did anything wrong, which you and others seem to be saying.

[Robert Fischer]

Did Borel show any frustration? possibly
do some jockeys still think they should "teach a quitting horse a lesson?"? unfortunately yes.

was the original comment off base? yes.

[joanied]

May I say one thing concerning posts here that talk down to someone...people should not forget this one fact...everyone, everyone, has been new to something...everyone has had to learn something, and for folks to talk down to others that are learning, IMO, is not the right thing to do. It used to bother me no end, for an example, when we'd have someone new in the barn...someone hotwalking for the first time, and some of the pfolks in the barn would tell the newbie.."at the end of the barn, turn right"...that kind of stuff just bothers me.
Nuff said.

Calvin wouldn't hurt Rachel for all the money in the world. I agre, sometimes his stick and his posture at the end of a close race does seem as if he is being desperate, but IMO, that is simply his style...and I don't beleive it's in any way hurting Rachel.
I think he may have screwed up by floating LAT...he did loose a few lengths in doing so, and that may have been the difference at the wire...the fractions were running awful slow, I don't know what they did or didn't do to the track surface, but when they ran the sprint so slow, you had to know that the track was in strange shape...maybe a true speed bias would have made a difference for rachel in the PE...but in my eyes, she lost nothing in defeat...and gained plenty of respect in putting away LAT...and if she was mine, since she isn't trying to keep a win streak going, I'd try her at the distance again...
and I'd also get Calvin on her in the mornings...it seems to me that hse is not as happy with someone else on her back...and that Calvin should be working her.

[Dahoss9698]

Joanied, come on. The fractions were awful slow? Rachel isn't happy because Calvin isn't on her back in the morning? He wasn't on her back in the mornings last year either. Dom Terry was.

[MickJ26]

The whole whipping and jockey change issues aside, I'm hoping she comes back in the Beldame. It would give her another crack at Persistently and Life at Ten, plus Blink Luck is going in the Cotillion. If it factors in the equation, the Beldame is around one turn. I don't know when was the last time Rachel ran a one turn race, maybe the Mother Goose?

[joanied]

As far as I can recall, Calvin was called in to work Rachel last year...I could be wrong about that...but it doesn't change my opinion that Calvin should be working her.

Fractions for the PE were: 23 3/5, 1:12, 1:37 2/5, 2:04 2/5....those are slow fractions, especially for a Grade 1 and even for a race at 1 1/4...

I also hope she goes in the Beldame...I'd love to see her outrun LAT again, and redeem herself with Persistantly...I also beleive it would be good to find her another 1 1/4 race, but I doubt they'll do that, and if they don't try it again before BC...I would not be surprised to see her in the Distaff, and not the Classic.

I beleive she needs another shot at the distance because of the track conditions at Saratoga for the PE and being floated out on the first turn, where she had to have lost a couple of lengths.

[OntheRail]

As far as I can recall, Calvin was called in to work Rachel last year...I could be wrong about that...but it doesn't change my opinion that Calvin should be working her.

Fractions for the PE were: 23 3/5, 1:12, 1:37 2/5, 2:04 2/5....those are slow fractions, especially for a Grade 1 and even for a race at 1 1/4...

I also hope she goes in the Beldame...I'd love to see her outrun LAT again, and redeem herself with Persistantly...I also beleive it would be good to find her another 1 1/4 race, but I doubt they'll do that, and if they don't try it again before BC...I would not be surprised to see her in the Distaff, and not the Classic.

I beleive she needs another shot at the distance because of the track conditions at Saratoga for the PE and being floated out on the first turn, where she had to have lost a couple of lengths.

joanied I agree not like she was leaning on the rail after the turn holding her chest wheezing... but not sure how they could fit a 1 1/4 race in between now and the BC if they go to the Beldame.

I was shocked to see Calvin running her so wide looking at the head on you could of drove a Mac truck between them and the rail :faint: I expected to see a ground saving trip. Oh well we know Calvin will listen and ride as instructed.

As for the track I have mentioned that I thought it was off in some way all the time were skewed. Also notice Persistantly came back kinda muddy looking for a "FAST" track guess there is not water shortage in NY.

[Dahoss9698]

As far as I can recall, Calvin was called in to work Rachel last year...I could be wrong about that...but it doesn't change my opinion that Calvin should be working her.

Fractions for the PE were: 23 3/5, 1:12, 1:37 2/5, 2:04 2/5....those are slow fractions, especially for a Grade 1 and even for a race at 1 1/4...

I also hope she goes in the Beldame...I'd love to see her outrun LAT again, and redeem herself with Persistantly...I also beleive it would be good to find her another 1 1/4 race, but I doubt they'll do that, and if they don't try it again before BC...I would not be surprised to see her in the Distaff, and not the Classic.

I beleive she needs another shot at the distance because of the track conditions at Saratoga for the PE and being floated out on the first turn, where she had to have lost a couple of lengths.

People who make their living judging pace don't think it was a slow pace. You are entitled to your opinion, no matter how misinformed it is.

Dom terry was her rider in the mornings when Asmussen got her.

[thespaah]

We didn't do an MSG+ broadcast of the Personal Ensign and I NEVER said the final time was " slow " and in fact never commented on it one way or another.

I don't understand where this stuff comes from.A thousand apologies ,Andy.
I got the Travers broadcast mixed up with the next day.. What an idiot....
I was actually watchuing HRTV and one of their commentators expressed that the final time for the PE was slow.
Sorry about that.....

[joanied]

I have read a lot of posts here, after I wrote my reply...I got to second guessing myself...but even the guys that make their living judging pace said it was at best, moderate...and no, I won't go back and find them all...they are there.
IMO, the fractions were slow, although I'll concede to moderate, and I am not misinformed.

Ontherail....correct...it's the Beldame or some race at the classic distance...no way they could get in the two...my bad...and because they are probably re thinking where Rachel runs on BC Day...the Beldame seems logical. Unless they know something we don't, I will be very surprised to see rachel in the Classic...which is a total bummer!

And lastly...Rachel lost nothing in this defeat...track surface strange as hell, going way too wide, dukin' it out until the top of the stretch, and the momentum that Persistantly carried to the wire was something few horses could have fought off.

[thespaah]

Many of the members on this board react with condescending and rude statements and questions. It's really annoying and frustrating. Just like after a game of football, I like to come on here and discuss a win or loss. If its so difficult for you to not belittle people, don't say anything.You're not alone.
I posted a message where I refered to older people as "geriatrics". I laughingly refer to my parents as "you couple of geriatrics"...They get a chcukle out of it. ..I was flamed by Grits as "insolent"...Why? I have no idea. Guess she hadn't had her morning Yuban yet.

[thespaah]

Would you like to bend over for the demo to prove your point ???

--MikkiOk PETA ....a horse's skin is much tougher than that of a human....

[thespaah]

I agree. I also am tired of hearing how the fractions in the PE were suicidal. They were not, unless someone wants to break out all the other races over the weekend and show how that track was very slow, which is, I guess, a possibility given the horrendous time they came home in the King's Bishop (13.72 for the final eighth!!!!)Whicdh if doubled ( to make a quarter mile) would figure out to 27.44..
BTW that last Q for the PE was indeed nearly 27 seconds.
I looked over the last Q times at SAR over the last three days leading inot the weekend. It did not seem to matter whether it was a sprint or a route. The last Q times were slow and speed was holding up very well. This indicates a deep tiring racing surface.
It is what it is....

[cj]

I have read a lot of posts here, after I wrote my reply...I got to second guessing myself...but even the guys that make their living judging pace said it was at best, moderate...and no, I won't go back and find them all...they are there.
IMO, the fractions were slow, although I'll concede to moderate, and I am not misinformed.



I don't know if you consider me as a pace expert or not, but I know it was not moderate. That implies to me average to slightly slow. It was in the fast to very fast range in my opinion, especially considering the first turn ground loss and jostling.

[thespaah]

It's the Internet. People are free to make up anything they wish. We see that played out here every time Zenyatta or Rachel exits the starting gate.
I didn't make anything up...I made a mistake for which I apologized on the board as well as in a PM to TLG....

[cj]

I will add that nobody needs figures to know the pace of the race was fast. JUST WATCH IT. They were banging and opening 15 lengths on the field.

[joanied]

I'll give in for the 1st 1/4...but the rest of the race was, IMO, kinda slow...don't matter, IMO, that Rachel & LAT were banging it out, 15 in front of the others...the pace was still kinda slow...47 &3 is almost a 48 half...doubt you'd call that fast, and the mile in nearly 1:38, I don't call that fast either...the surface was obviously tiring, and I would think that Rachel & LAT were probably running as fast as they could on that surface...and it probably was what did in Rachel more than the extra distance...and that is also my opinion...it sure did in LAT:) ...it was, IMO, pretty easy for Persistantly to pick up the pieces...

[Relwob Owner]

I'll give in for the 1st 1/4...but the rest of the race was, IMO, kinda slow...don't matter, IMO, that Rachel & LAT were banging it out, 15 in front of the others...the pace was still kinda slow...47 &3 is almost a 48 half...doubt you'd call that fast, and the mile in nearly 1:38, I don't call that fast either...the surface was obviously tiring, and I would think that Rachel & LAT were probably running as fast as they could on that surface...and it probably was what did in Rachel more than the extra distance...and that is also my opinion...it sure did in LAT:) ...it was, IMO, pretty easy for Persistantly to pick up the pieces...


I am 100 percent with you Joanie D...here is the Travers pace and Rachel's is under it for comparison's sake...I realize that the track may have not been exactly the same variant wise but it seems from the times of the other races, there wasnt that much of a difference.

Travers-23 2/5,47 1/5,111 1/5,136 3/5 203 1/5
Personal-23 3/5,47 3/5, 112,137 2/5, 2:04 2/5

I think you are spot on in saying the first quarter was kind of quick but the rest of the pace wasnt too fast...going from 47 and 3 to 137 and 2 isnt fast at all and provided RA with a little bit of a breather IMO. I also refute the notion that because they were "10 or 15" in front of the others, that indicates a fast pace. Being well in front of the others just proved the others were going very slow at this point.


My feeling is that when people analyze Zenyatta and Rachel races, they tend to analyze with their hearts rather than their heads a bit and lose their objectivity-just an opinion.......

[Charlie D]

Just a point RO on your comparison.

In Travers, Pace horse 1 fell out of back of the tv, in Travers Presser, may as well have fell out of back of the tv.


In Personal Ensign Pace horse 1 was beaten around 1 length, Presser fell out of back of the tv.


Race dynamics in both races were suited to the Closing style.

[cj]

My feeling is that when people analyze Zenyatta and Rachel races, they tend to analyze with their hearts rather than their heads a bit and lose their objectivity-just an opinion.......

I can assure you this had absolutely nothing to do with my figures.

[Relwob Owner]

Just a point RB on your comparison.

In Travers, Pace horse 1 fell out of tv, in Travers Presser, may as well have fell out of tv.


In Personal Ensign Pace horse 1 was beaten around 1 length, Presser fell out of tv.


Good point and I considered that but the current debate seemed to be whether or not that was a really fast pace and I think the simplicity of that debate means you can compare the two, especially since the Travers was a full second faster....your Pace horse 1 was going a full second faster than RA and the ones that fell out in the Travers werent strong horses and definitely werent horses of the year last year.....plus, the horse that won the Travers wasst far off that pace, was he? I am being genuine here in asking-I think he was 4 or 5 off, putting his pace right around Rachel's......


Look at last year;s Personal Ensign. If I am not mistaken, the leader was stalking and all the fractions and times were faster-yes, different track, different time but OK to compare, I think.

comparison or not, based on the pure time, getting from the opening quarter to the mile and then home, the fractions just werent that fast IMO

[Relwob Owner]

I can assure you this had absolutely nothing to do with my figures.


Well I guess we agree to disagree then---I would ask you then-off pure numbers and how fast the track was that day, you think that after the first quarter through the rest of the race was a fast pace? Seems like every quarter was 24 plus, no? What is your reasoning? Being genuine and will readily admit that I am not a pace expert and am up for being proven wrong....it happens every day....

[cj]

Well I guess we agree to disagree then---I would ask you then-off pure numbers and how fast the track was that day, you think that after the first quarter through the rest of the race was a fast pace? Seems like every quarter was 24 plus, no? What is your reasoning? Being genuine and will readily admit that I am not a pace expert and am up for being proven wrong....it happens every day....

I would ask you, what pace time do you think the winner of a G1 usually wins at Saratoga going 10f?

After many years of doing this, I know the ideal times a horse should run on each surface and distance, track specific. That wasn't it.

[Charlie D]

Travers wasst far off that pace, was he? I am being genuine here in asking-I think he was 4 or 5 off,




A projection of that would mean he would stop the timer at 6f close to RA's time.

[DeanT]

Hard to use the leader in the Travers as a gauge because he sustained a hairline fracture. I think I bet a few of those this weekend, including him.

First Dude kinda raced like he always does (even with the blinkers).

[cj]

Hard to use the leader in the Travers as a gauge because he sustained a hairline fracture. I think I bet a few of those this weekend, including him.

First Dude kinda raced like he always does (even with the blinkers).

The track was very much speed friendly on Saturday...Sunday, not so sure.

[Dahoss9698]

Sometimes I wonder if I follow the same sport as others when I read some of these posts. You don't need to be an expert on pace to realize two horses opening up by 15, going 10 furlongs are probably going pretty quick. When one of them comes to a virtual stop and the other struggles late common sense would dictate the pace did them in.

Do slow paces normally hurt front runners? On synth maybe, but definitely not dirt. A slow pace would not have produced that result Sunday.

[Relwob Owner]

I would ask you, what pace time do you think the winner of a G1 usually wins at Saratoga going 10f?

After many years of doing this, I know the ideal times a horse should run on each surface and distance, track specific. That wasn't it.


Off hand, no clue....I am simply going by the splits and that is why I asked you because you seem to have much more specific info than myself at hand and are frankly armed with much more info and knowledge with pace than myself...I do know that the pace was much slower at every fraction except the first than the 2009 Personal Ensign was....I just really dont see how going 24 plus at a mile and a quarter is considered that fast of a pace

[Relwob Owner]

Sometimes I wonder if I follow the same sport as others when I read some of these posts. You don't need to be an expert on pace to realize two horses opening up by 15, going 10 furlongs are probably going pretty quick. When one of them comes to a virtual stop and the other struggles late common sense would dictate the pace did them in.

Do slow paces normally hurt front runners? On synth maybe, but definitely not dirt. A slow pace would not have produced that result Sunday.



We follow the same sport and as usual, dont really see the point in the pot shots you take. You are one of the sharpest, if not the sharpest posters on here and the pot shots take away from everything you say .....how much of a lead they had on the rest of the field shows nothing from how I see things ....overall, the track seemed pretty quick that day in general so going off the splits, I just dont see it being that fast....if it was, then the Travers pace was lightning fast(yet a horse not that far out won it) and the 2009 Personal Ensign must have been lightning too and a horse came from just off of it.....just an opinion on my end, thats all and unlike most on here, I will readily admit if I am wrong.

[Relwob Owner]

A projection of that would mean he would stop the timer at 6f close to RA's time.


Correct and his final time was more than a full second faster, no?

[Dahoss9698]

We follow the same sport and as usual, dont really see the point in the pot shots you take. You are one of the sharpest, if not the sharpest posters on here and the pot shots take away from everything you say .....how much of a lead they had on the rest of the field shows nothing from how I see things ....overall, the track seemed pretty quick that day in general so going off the splits, I just dont see it being that fast....if it was, then the Travers pace was lightning fast(yet a horse not that far out won it) and the 2009 Personal Ensign must have been lightning too and a horse came from just off of it.....just an opinion on my end, thats all and unlike most on here, I will readily admit if I am wrong.



Nowadays it's tough to compare times on different races on the same day, let alone races on different days or years even. Saturday is a great example of this. You had to be on the lead and inside for the first 10 races or so. I believe the track was watered prior to the Travers and it appeared the surface was more fair. Now, it was the only dirt route on the card, so it's tough to say if it was the distance or the track changing but closers didn't seem to struggle in the Travers like they did all day long earlier.

I'm not saying the PE pace was the fastest ever, but considering the way the two pacesetters finished, I think it would indicate they were going pretty quick up front.

[Charlie D]

Thats what it says in PP RO.


Probably best way to compare is Feet Per Second as in Modern Pace Capping.

[Relwob Owner]

Nowadays it's tough to compare times on different races on the same day, let alone races on different days or years even. Saturday is a great example of this. You had to be on the lead and inside for the first 10 races or so. I believe the track was watered prior to the Travers and it appeared the surface was more fair. Now, it was the only dirt route on the card, so it's tough to say if it was the distance or the track changing but closers didn't seem to struggle in the Travers like they did all day long earlier.

I'm not saying the PE pace was the fastest ever, but considering the way the two pacesetters finished, I think it would indicate they were going pretty quick up front.


Gotcha....I do think the pace was solid but just not one that totally excused the slow finish but appreciate the insight about different races on the same day and even that day.... as usual, spot on. Veering a little away on the thread, I wonder about Trickmeister's race. He had it all his way, but woah...

[Dahoss9698]

Gotcha....I do think the pace was solid but just not one that totally excused the slow finish but appreciate the insight about different races on the same day and even that day.... as usual, spot on. Veering a little away on the thread, I wonder about Trickmeister's race. He had it all his way, but woah...

He was awesome, but like you mentioned, was it the track or he's just that good. Probably a mixture of both. If there is a good thing about a track biased like it was it's that it makes for lots of future opportunities to bet horses that ran against the grain.

[Relwob Owner]

He was awesome, but like you mentioned, was it the track or he's just that good. Probably a mixture of both. If there is a good thing about a track biased like it was it's that it makes for lots of future opportunities to bet horses that ran against the grain.


yep

[PaceAdvantage]

I didn't make anything up...I made a mistake for which I apologized on the board as well as in a PM to TLG....Well, you kind of did because you had your facts wrong...not the worst case I've ever seen...you are forgiven :lol: ...sorry for my post...it was more of a "general" thing then specifically targeted towards you...I know you don't make a habit of it...

[joanied]

I just have to repeat myself...two horses running 10 or 12 lengths in front of the rest of the field doesn't mean they were cookin' the track...and one of those horses was kept back because it's her way of running...Persistantly...I don't care about the times of any of the other races that day, or that weekend...the times are what they are, and to run a mile in nearly 1:38 is not a fast pace:bang: ...and if the track was a tiring one, as reported, then, IMO, that is what did them in...not that they ran too fast.

[cj]

I just have to repeat myself...two horses running 10 or 12 lengths in front of the rest of the field doesn't mean they were cookin' the track...and one of those horses was kept back because it's her way of running...Persistantly...I don't care about the times of any of the other races that day, or that weekend...the times are what they are, and to run a mile in nearly 1:38 is not a fast pace:bang: ...and if the track was a tiring one, as reported, then, IMO, that is what did them in...not that they ran too fast.

1:38? The race is 80% over by then. The pace had already taken its toll. I was watching with my wife and as they hit the top of the stretch I told her she was going to lose.

[DeanT]

She was starting to be asked with the tank on E even before the mile pole, so I could not agree more. But the closers were so awful I still thought she could come home in 27 to win.

If it was in running on BF I would have had trouble laying her at the mile pole, even knowing she was dead.

[cj]

Oh, and I told her Life At Ten was done entering the far turn. Of course my wife didn't care, but she was the only one I could tell!

[cpitt84]

1:38? The race is 80% over by then. The pace had already taken its toll. I was watching with my wife and as they hit the top of the stretch I told her she was going to lose.

Same here. My husband kept saying, "shes going to get it" after seeing me look so nervous. But, you could just tell it was a different Rachel when she rounded the far turn. I actually said, "poor rachel" because she looked so tired.

The toughest race for me to watch of rachels!

[Relwob Owner]

I have a really busy day ahead, one that'll, honestly, involve a quite serious medical procedure. But before I leave my house, let me say, since I sent you a private pm indicating that I was sorry, apologizing if I offended you, or made you uncomfortable CPitt, there is nothing wrong in learning about a new sport. As you indicated to me, though, horseracing will not ever be your forte', you're a woman interested in football and hockey, and only interested in the two mares--Rachel Alexandra and Zenyatta.

I'll try to post my words more gently. Maybe you'll come to realize there's far more to the sport of thoroughbred racing than this mare and this filly--and you may want to ask someone why one's a mare, why the other's a filly--is another question one could pose that is in the learning stage of the sport.

I relax, just fine. It takes a whole lot more than a horseracing messageboard to trip my trigger, sweetheart. And for the moment, I'm on the way out the door to deal with it.

Take care, and enjoy Pace Advantage.




No apology for me???????????

[cpitt84]

No apology for me???????????

Aww, you deserve one. Thanks again for coming to my aide.

[Jasonm921]

As far as I can recall, Calvin was called in to work Rachel last year...I could be wrong about that...but it doesn't change my opinion that Calvin should be working her.

Fractions for the PE were: 23 3/5, 1:12, 1:37 2/5, 2:04 2/5....those are slow fractions, especially for a Grade 1 and even for a race at 1 1/4...

I also hope she goes in the Beldame...I'd love to see her outrun LAT again, and redeem herself with Persistantly...I also beleive it would be good to find her another 1 1/4 race, but I doubt they'll do that, and if they don't try it again before BC...I would not be surprised to see her in the Distaff, and not the Classic.

I beleive she needs another shot at the distance because of the track conditions at Saratoga for the PE and being floated out on the first turn, where she had to have lost a couple of lengths.


The one thing about the fractions which I don't know was ever brought up is the fact that Calvin took her 3-4 wide the entire first turn (to kill LAT). That took a 1/5 or two off the first and second calls. The stretch was playing rather deep as the times were pedestrian. I wish they would have carded another two turn dirt race that day to get a truer idea of what the track was playing like.

[cj]

The one thing about the fractions which I don't know was ever brought ...

I bring it up every time I mention the pace.

[Jasonm921]

Duly noted CJ.

[joanied]

1:38? The race is 80% over by then. The pace had already taken its toll. I was watching with my wife and as they hit the top of the stretch I told her she was going to lose.

So what if the race was 80% over by the mile marker...it was still a slow mile...look, I know you are an expert at this stuff, cj...but a slow mile is a slow mile...and I was thinking at the time, good, she's on a loose rein, running as she pleases despite LAT pressing her flank...and, since you mentioned your wife, I was watching with my husband, and he kept saying she's gonna be OK, and I kept saying, no she isn't, look at her legs, she's very tired, if someone else is coming...and that's as far as I got because someone else was coming, so I just sat back down and kept saying oh,no, oh,no.
But hey, what do I know:faint:

[Nikki1997]

So what if the race was 80% over by the mile marker...it was still a slow mile...look, I know you are an expert at this stuff, cj...but a slow mile is a slow mile...and I was thinking at the time, good, she's on a loose rein, running as she pleases despite LAT pressing her flank...and, since you mentioned your wife, I was watching with my husband, and he kept saying she's gonna be OK, and I kept saying, no she isn't, look at her legs, she's very tired, if someone else is coming...and that's as far as I got because someone else was coming, so I just sat back down and kept saying oh,no, oh,no.
But hey, what do I know:faint:

Calvin worked her last year along with Dom Terry . True .

The pace was modest, though there are those who would split hairs over semantics . The mile was on the slow side.

If she had any closing kick OR the powerful blast she had after the third quarter last year that gave her great momentum to the wire, she would have made it her home distance limitations aside .

Her speed is trained out, with no replacement with stamina . Done after a mile, made the wire on guts.

LAT was suspect at 10 furlongs as she won dictating the pace--she no more was thrashed by RA than she did not stay on when not in control .

Rachel stayed better and LAT did not stay--50/50 .

Mikki

[DeanT]

So what if the race was 80% over by the mile marker...it was still a slow mile...look, I know you are an expert at this stuff, cj...but a slow mile is a slow mile...and I was thinking at the time, good, she's on a loose rein, running as she pleases despite LAT pressing her flank...and, since you mentioned your wife, I was watching with my husband, and he kept saying she's gonna be OK, and I kept saying, no she isn't, look at her legs, she's very tired, if someone else is coming...and that's as far as I got because someone else was coming, so I just sat back down and kept saying oh,no, oh,no.
But hey, what do I know:faint:

Hi Joanie,

Hard to follow all the chatter here on this race, so a quick note/recap: CJ has not said it is a great race, or she would have run a great race if she got slower fractions. He said she would have won by ten if this was last year. Charlie CJ, Bob and a few guys are saying it was not an awful race like everyone thinks, because if she gets a better trip and pace, she prolly wins easily and a good deal of people are probably still on her bandwagon. Others are saying it was awful and nothing can sugar coat it. A small minority thinks that those Hong Kong poison dart dudes hit her with 3/8's to go and she can still win the Classic without trying. Another small minority thinks she could not win an optional 8 claimer at Mountaineer.

That is my take on the 457 posts I have read the last two days :)

[Charlie D]

That is my take on the 457 posts I have read the last two days

:lol:

[lamboguy]

Hi Joanie,

Hard to follow all the chatter here on this race, so a quick note/recap: CJ has not said it is a great race, or she would have run a great race if she got slower fractions. He said she would have won by ten if this was last year. Charlie CJ, Bob and a few guys are saying it was not an awful race like everyone thinks, because if she gets a better trip and pace, she prolly wins easily and a good deal of people are probably still on her bandwagon. Others are saying it was awful and nothing can sugar coat it. A small minority thinks that those Hong Kong poison dart dudes hit her with 3/8's to go and she can still win the Classic without trying. Another small minority thinks she could not win an optional 8 claimer at Mountaineer.

That is my take on the 457 posts I have read the last two days :)i think she ran the best race of her career last sunday in defeat. jess jackson might not think so, but that is what makes horseracing. i would think that is a great race to use as a springboard to her next one if indeed she will have a next one.

[Charlie D]

think she ran the best race of her career last sunday in defeat

Lamboguy, you've stated this a few time now and i've just got to know, what is it that makes you state this??

[born2ride]

Hi Joanie,

Hard to follow all the chatter here on this race, so a quick note/recap: CJ has not said it is a great race, or she would have run a great race if she got slower fractions. He said she would have won by ten if this was last year. Charlie CJ, Bob and a few guys are saying it was not an awful race like everyone thinks, because if she gets a better trip and pace, she prolly wins easily and a good deal of people are probably still on her bandwagon. Others are saying it was awful and nothing can sugar coat it. A small minority thinks that those Hong Kong poison dart dudes hit her with 3/8's to go and she can still win the Classic without trying. Another small minority thinks she could not win an optional 8 claimer at Mountaineer.

That is my take on the 457 posts I have read the last two days :)

Though the fractions were not fast the track was tiring and IMO looked a bit deeper than normal with not a lot of give. None of the horses Saturday or Sunday looked like they were skipping over the surface. A lot of horses in the earlier races, even those the day before, after galloping out came back blowing harder than I expected given the finishing times. I'm not sure what to make of the race, but I don't think it was all that bad. I certainly don't think she should retire, and yeah I'm still on her bandwagon. So I guess I'm straddling a couple of your categories Dean!

[sandpit]

Anybody think Hal Wiggins would have this filly on the plus side of .500 this year? Assuming they wouldn't have retired her, of course.

[Dahoss9698]

Anybody think Hal Wiggins would have this filly on the plus side of .500 this year? Assuming they wouldn't have retired her, of course.

I don't know. But if Wiggins had her for all of last year I doubt we would have seen her in the Preakness, Haskell or Woodward.

[cpitt84]

I don't know. But if Wiggins had her for all of last year I doubt we would have seen her in the Preakness, Haskell or Woodward.

Well, he was on video saying females race with the females, males with males.

She probably would not be horse of the year 2009 with wiggins.

[DeanT]

Well, he was on video saying females race with the females, males with males.

She probably would not be horse of the year 2009 with wiggins.

If you read Reid's post he gives you a glimpse of the year she would have had schedule wise if she was not sold:

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=918026&postcount=175

My youngest son was Hal Wiggins' assistant trainer for 7 years and was in the barn with Rachel A. from the time she arrived as a 2-year old until the Wednesday after the Oaks. A plan was mapped that would take her to the Acorn, possibly the triple tiara, but if she dominated in the Acorn as she did in the Oaks, the Haskell-Travers were considered for next two races, Keeneland opening weekend for her BC prep and then HOY showdown with Zen.

[Charlie D]

My youngest son was Hal Wiggins' assistant trainer for 7 years and was in the barn with Rachel A. from the time she arrived as a 2-year old until the Wednesday after the Oaks. A plan was mapped that would take her to the Acorn, possibly the triple tiara, but if she dominated in the Acorn as she did in the Oaks, the Haskell-Travers were considered for next two races, Keeneland opening weekend for her BC prep and then HOY showdown with Zen.


So they thought of her as a future 10f horse.


Thanks Dean, Intersting comments.

[DeanT]

So they thought of her as a future 10f horse.


I would have thought that too. I think "she is only a 9f horse" is one of those lines in racing that if repeated long enough, becomes truth.

[Charlie D]

Yep!!