Awful!! Persisently nabs Rachel

[jognlope]

In the last few yards, ridden by Alan Garcia. Oh man.... they might retire Rachel now.

[Wickel]

Nabs? She destroyed her. Rachel just got beaten by a horse that competed last in an overnight claimer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Speed Figure]

She's DONE!!

[tzipi]

In the last few yards, ridden by Alan Garcia. Oh man.... they might retire Rachel now.

:lol: Amazing the experience of fans today. She ran a 1 1/4 in 23 and change and 47 and change in a speed duel and put away Life at Ten and got caught last....so they should retire her. :lol:

In the BCC if they run there at least she wont have to run 23 and 47 and change on the lead in an open lengths speed duel.

Ok so lets keep Zenny winning and Rachel on track for the Classic. Kind of a depressing outcome because of fractions but not the worst. On to the next :)

[PaceAdvantage]

She's DONE!!How many times has this been posted this year? Eventually I guess you'll be right... :lol:

[cpitt84]

greatest 3 year old campaigns ever but rachel just isn't the same...sad to see, of course I wanted to see her win like a lot of people.

[tzipi]

She's DONE!!

:lol: I agree with some trainers on teh level of experience on fans today. 1 1/4 race through those fractions and gets caught at the wire and she should retire.

At least she had to battle a decent horse.

[ArlJim78]

Rachel will not go in the Classic, rest assured.

[Learned Hand35]

Worst thread ever. :ThmbDown:

[PaceAdvantage]

greatest 3 year old campaigns ever but rachel just isn't the same...sad to see, of course I wanted to see her win like a lot of people.I think you should post this on every single thread from now on.

[BluegrassProf]

Nabs? She destroyed her. Rachel just got beaten by a horse that competed last in an overnight claimer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!So, this is your assessment of the race?

I'm serious now: this is the best possible assessment you could gather of this race? Honest-to-goodness the best?

[tzipi]

Rachel will not go in the Classic, rest assured.

Yup,a horse running second through those fractions in a 1 1/4 prep for the Classic is horrible. :lol: Learn horse racing. ArlJIM. you might want to check the PP's of past BBC entrants and winners before they ran in the Classic. All didnt win beforehand.

[tzipi]

Nabs? She destroyed her. Rachel just got beaten by a horse that competed last in an overnight claimer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Maybe one day you'll learn fractions.

[Headbanger]

Pace, these people half of em are clueless morons who have no idea about half of the way racing works...Anyone with half a brain would know that Rachel ran pretty darn good today considering she literally buried Life at Ten and ran her into the ground, and just got nipped by a horse who literally had the trip of trips today while Rachel Alexandra did all the dirty work and simply put these people's blind faith towards Zenyatta who will eventually get drowned in November in the Classic clouds all judgement towards the reigning Horse of the Year.

[Speed Figure]

How many times has this been posted this year? Eventually I guess you'll be right... :lol:Do you really think she will run in the classic?

[DJofSD]

Redux of the Cigar loss to Dare And Go.

[ArlJim78]

Yup,a horse running second through those fractions in a 1 1/4 prep for the Classic is horrible. :lol: Learn horse racing. ArlJIM. you might want to check the PP's of past BBC entrants and winners before they ran in the Classic. All didnt win beforehand.
Let me know what you're smokin, it's obviously good stuff.

[Audioslavery]

Pace, these people half of em are clueless morons who have no idea about half of the way racing works...Anyone with half a brain would know that Rachel ran pretty darn good today considering she literally buried Life at Ten and ran her into the ground, and just got nipped by a horse who literally had the trip of trips today while Rachel Alexandra did all the dirty work and simply put these people's blind faith towards Zenyatta who will eventually get drowned in November in the Classic clouds all judgement towards the reigning Horse of the Year.

Sounds like you're drinking the same Kool-Aid as those "clueless morons"

Pass some of that over here buddy! :lol:

[cj]

It would be foolish to run her in the Classic, but I said that before today. However, anyone that doesn't think she ran very well today needs to do some homework. She destroyed Life at Ten but just didn't have enough left.

It wasn't the greatest ride by Borel, but then again he is nothing more than average away from Churchill, and much worse at Saratoga. She'll go in the Distaff and most likely win. I have no idea why anyone would think she is done after that race.

For those interested, the pace figure will be about 25-30 points higher than the speed figure...that is a SERIOUS duel.

[PaceAdvantage]

Do you really think she will run in the classic?Have I ever written that that was my dream? No, in fact I've written that neither Zenyatta or Rachel will probably win the Classic nor should they even enter.

[tzipi]

Pace, these people half of em are clueless morons who have no idea about half of the way racing works...Anyone with half a brain would know that Rachel ran pretty darn good today considering she literally buried Life at Ten and ran her into the ground, and just got nipped by a horse who literally had the trip of trips today while Rachel Alexandra did all the dirty work and simply put these people's blind faith towards Zenyatta who will eventually get drowned in November in the Classic clouds all judgement towards the reigning Horse of the Year.

Exactly. Most these people have no idea about fracitions and think a second place finish at 1 1/4 race trough those fractions are bad and show she should be retired. Hate to see their income on their betting. Sad.

[Tom]

A claimer? :eek:

[tzipi]

Have I ever written that that was my dream? No, in fact I've written that neither Zenyatta or Rachel will probably win the Classic nor should they even enter.

I guess you have to realize PA that some of these people think every BCC entrant and winner won all there prep races and never finished second in a race at long routes. Insane.

[tzipi]

It would be foolish to run her in the Classic, but I said that before today. However, anyone that doesn't think she ran very well today needs to do some homework. She destroyed Life at Ten but just didn't have enough left.

It wasn't the greatest ride by Borel, but then again he is nothing more than average away from Churchill, and much worse at Saratoga. She'll go in the Distaff and most likely win. I have no idea why anyone would think she is done after that race.

For those interested, the pace figure will be about 25-30 points higher than the speed figure...that is a SERIOUS duel.

Did you see the fractions for the 1 1/4 race? She just lost at the wire.

Why foolish? She won't have to run 23 and 47 and change out there by 10. She won't have to be in a suicidal duel in the Classic. Her second place finish in that kind of race at 1 1/4 knocks her out? :confused:

[PaceAdvantage]

A claimer! :eek:A claimer who had more in lifetime earnings coming into this race than St Trinians had coming into the Vanity... :lol:

Rinterval ran in a claiming race two starts before the Clement Hirsch too...

Funny thing was, nobody was saying Zenyatta almost got beat by a claimer after the race...will have to remember that for next time... :lol:

[Tom]

Anyone with half a brain would know that Rachel ran pretty darn good today

Winning isn't everything, it's the only thing.
Who took home the lion's share of the purse?
Who cashed tickets?

Last time I looked, this wasn't the olympics - this is racing - winners talk, losers walk. :lol::lol::lol:

[Speed Figure]

A claimer who had more in lifetime earnings coming into this race than St Trinians had coming into the Vanity... :lol:

Rinterval ran in a claiming race two starts before the Clement Hirsch too...

Funny thing was, nobody was saying Zenyatta almost got beat by a claimer after the race...will have to remember that for next time... :lol:Because she didn't lose she WON!! :D

[Wickel]

Maybe one day you'll learn fractions.

Rachel withstood 46.2 and 1:10.2 in the Woodward! Albeit second-rate males. That's not an excuse today. Almost all of my posts on this subject have been about her competition, or lack there of. Check out Life At Ten--only six races ago, last November, she was competing in starter allowance races. There were no St. Trinians in the race, no Unbridled Belles. Even the 3-year-old crop would have juiced the race up. Rachel's a very good racehorse, but she's leaps and bounds in arrears of Zenyatta.

For the record, I blame this loss on Borel and his bonehead move to try and steal the race. His ride on Super Saver in the Travers was abhorrable, too.

[PhantomOnTour]

My thoughts; for what they're worth...

1) Rachel is not a 1m1/4 horse. I think if the Preakness were a 1/16th longer MTB would have caught her.
2) That being said, she has run damned well in her 2 races over 1m1/8 while setting/dueling through some serious fractions. She held on at Pim and got caught today. Softer fractions and I think she hangs on today....
3) However, who thinks she'll get easy splits in the Classic? I see a repeat performance of today if she goes in the Classic....gutsy race and comes up a lil short.
4) Put her in the Ladies Classic at a distance where she will still have some gas. Would love to see Blind Luck and Zenyatta come at her in the lane going 1m1/8...what a finish. Just because 9f or so may be her optimum distance does not mean she is a bum for missing at 10f; nor does it mean she should be retired. Hell, she wins a LOT of purse money.

Just my thoughts.

[Tom]

Funny thing was, nobody was saying Zenyatta almost got beat by a claimer after the race...will have to remember that for next time... :lol:


Operative word here is almost.
Just trying to use the same criteria for both horses.....you know, tomato cans and all that? What was this one, a Can of PEAS? :lol:

Hey, maybe eventually she will find a field she can beat. It's only August!
I will admit, she ran a good race, in defeat. So did Sham. ;)

[bisket]

if rachel was outside life at the beginning she would have won today. she doesn't like horses challenging her on her right for some reason. its not uncommon at all for speed horses to not like running along the rail. when calvin tries to rate her along the rail she fights him and tosses her head. if you notice every time she was challenged on her right in the stretch she let the other horses by. its a common denominator in all her loses.

its quality road's problem also. when speed is challenged and pinned on the rail at the beginning of a route they will constantly run fast enough to stay in front of their opponent. or like quality road in the whitney he will spit the bit and give up if he's being trained to rate along the rail. if you notice in the met mile quality was allowed to stay ahead of the outside horse through the early fractions and he freaked in that race.

once again rachel and quality have been beaten by an even running horse... keep that in mind for the classic!!! for the place hole behind zen

[tzipi]

Rachel withstood 46.2 and 1:10.2 in the Woodward! Albeit second-rate males. That's not an excuse today. Almost all of my posts on this subject have been about her competition, or lack there of. Check out Life At Ten--only six races ago, last November, she was competing in starter allowance races. There were no St. Trinians in the race, no Unbridled Belles. Even the 3-year-old crop would have juiced the race up. Rachel's a very good racehorse, but she's leaps and bounds in arrears of Zenyatta.

For the record, I blame this loss on Borel and his bonehead move to try and steal the race. His ride on Super Saver in the Travers was abhorrable, too.

You're talking about second rate males? Oh stop. Life at Ten is garbage? "No St Trinians"? HA wow. Those fractions were not a bit suicidal for a 1 1/4? :rolleyes: Zen hasn't faced anyone yet but overmatched girls(barely beat a allowance horse in last but called greatest race?) and turf horses on synthetic. Your low level of experience will not fool me. Write what you want. It's rubbish.

[Wickel]

You guys can twist words all you want. Rachel lost--LOST! I'm looking up Dandy Don's number now, because you know what folks--The Party's Over!!:D

[Judge Gallivan]

Did you see the fractions for the 1 1/4 race? She just lost at the wire.

Why foolish? She won't have to run 23 and 47 and change out there by 10. She won't have to be in a suicidal duel in the Classic. Her second place finish in that kind of race at 1 1/4 knocks her out? :confused:


In 2006 Classic at Churchill Downs the fractions were 23.13 46.60. Do you really expect them 2 seconds slower this year?

[DeanT]

For the record, I blame this loss on Borel and his bonehead move to try and steal the race. His ride on Super Saver in the Travers was abhorrable, too.

I don't blame him at all. It was a match race so he raced his foe. Handicappers have been calling him to race only LAT because the rest of the field was awful. Andy S in the pre-game show said "send her", and I do not know anyone who disagreed (before the race anyway).

She came her last quarter in 27.1 and got beat. A lot of horses who come their last quarter in a mile and a quarter race in pacing horse times, lose. She lost, so be it. No need to blame Steve A, or Calvin, or anyone. IMO.

[Jasonm921]

I have to agree that I don't know if the Classic is the best spot for her but she did destroy the leading mare on the east coast today. The scenario played out like 90 percent of the people on here thought it would. One of the stragglers caught her. This is no surprise we just thought it would be Wolfson's horse. Instead McGaughey's horse woke up.

[tzipi]

You guys can twist words all you want. Rachel lost--LOST! I'm looking up Dandy Don's number now, because you know what folks--The Party's Over!!:D

Sad Wickel. You think every great horse won every race they ran and a 2nd place finish in that race is a auto retirement. And you wonder why some trainers call bettors idiots. You woulve called for retirement back in the day too I guess for Secretariat or any other great or top horse after their losses. :D Goodnight

[BluegrassProf]

I've said it once, but I'll say it again, as simple as damned possible:

RA locked horns with Life at Ten from the break. Life at Ten. Are we paying attention here? Speed duel from the gate with Life at Ten at 1 1/4. A closer comes in and snips them both, just after RA puts L@T away without a second look - by 10 1/4 lengths.

But now, for the very loudest voices, L@T is irrelevant, as is a silly thing like pace. In the really-real world, that was a great race...classic upset, but a great race nonetheless.

I figure the best bet is probably to ignore the idiocy, and hope for more exciting racing to come. :ThmbUp:

[tzipi]

I've said it once, but I'll say it again, as simple as damned possible:

RA locked horns with Life at Ten from the break. Life at Ten. Are we paying attention here? Speed duel from the gate with Life at Ten at 1 1/4. A closer comes in and snips them both, just after RA puts L@T away without a second look - by 10 1/4 lengths.

But now, for the very loudest voices, L@T is irrelevant, as is a silly thing like pace. In the really-real world, that was a great race...classic upset, but a great race nonetheless.

I figure the best bet is probably to ignore the idiocy, and hope for more exciting racing to come. :ThmbUp:

You have to realize most these people have no idea about the sport,fractions,competition,etc. They think every BBC winner and entrant won all their races beforehand. Didn't they say here, "she's done". So almost every BBC prep loser before their win was done I guess. :D Oh well.

[Judge Gallivan]

When was the last BC Classic on DIRT with soft fractions?

[Jasonm921]

I've said it once, but I'll say it again, as simple as damned possible:

RA locked horns with Life at Ten from the break. Life at Ten. Are we paying attention here? Speed duel from the gate with Life at Ten at 1 1/4. A closer comes in and snips them both, just after RA puts L@T away without a second look - by 10 1/4 lengths.

But now, for the very loudest voices, L@T is irrelevant, as is a silly thing like pace. In the really-real world, that was a great race...classic upset, but a great race nonetheless.

I figure the best bet is probably to ignore the idiocy, and hope for more exciting racing to come. :ThmbUp:

Good post. Life at Ten will be forgotten in this whole argument. Borel raced against Velasquez and whatever was going to happen other than that was going to happen---and it did.

[PaceAdvantage]

I don't blame him at all. It was a match race so he raced his foe. Handicappers have been calling him to race only LAT because the rest of the field was awful. Andy S in the pre-game show said "send her", and I do not know anyone who disagreed (before the race anyway).

She came her last quarter in 27.1 and got beat. A lot of horses who come their last quarter in a mile and a quarter race in pacing horse times, lose. She lost, so be it. No need to blame Steve A, or Calvin, or anyone. IMO.It sure looked like a good strategy until late...I bet if they had to do it over again though, they wouldn't go out like that...and if you have a horse where you have doubts about getting 10f, why would you go out like that? Rachel has won her last two while coming from slightly off the pace...she came from four lengths out of it in the Mother Goose...

I suppose they feared letting LAT get away to an easy lead early and the rest of the field I suppose they thought they had over a barrel...

I've been calling for Calvin to be replaced since last year...nothing he has done this year has changed my opinion.

[bisket]

When was the last BC Classic on DIRT with soft fractions?
watchout they'll sick calvin on ya to pummel you with the whip :D

[KingChas]

Memories of Birdstone in the background on that final turn.
Didn't want to see that. :ThmbDown:

What I am in interested in is what will Persistently's new "Lifetime Greatness Number" for this race be?
Considering 85 was this gal's top LGN previously................. ;)

[bisket]

Memories of Birdstone in the background on that final turn.
Didn't want to see that. :ThmbDown:

What I am in interested in is what will Persistently's new "Lifetime Greatness Number" for this race be?
Considering 85 was this gal's top LGN previously................. ;)
now you really opened up a can of worms

[Canarsie]

For the life in me I can't understand how any fan could root against any horse that would be good for racing unless you had a wagering interest in the race. :bang:

Next up people will be pulling for Lisa's Booby Trap to lose. :ThmbDown:

[jonnielu]

Did you see the fractions for the 1 1/4 race? She just lost at the wire.

Why foolish? She won't have to run 23 and 47 and change out there by 10. She won't have to be in a suicidal duel in the Classic. Her second place finish in that kind of race at 1 1/4 knocks her out? :confused:

Seems to me that every loser just loses at the wire, if you insist on not recognizing what is actually going on. Hate to sound like a broken record, but, Rachel can't get 10.

jdl

[Charlie D]

Seems to me that every loser just loses at the wire, if you insist on not recognizing what is actually going on. Hate to sound like a broken record, but, Rachel can't get 10.

jdl


She just got 10 panels.Were you not watching Saratoga??

[thespaah]

Today....Rachel had 9 furlongs in her. That's all.
Horse racing is like the stock futures market. Past performance is no gurantee of future results.
The point here is if Rachel is the class of horse she has been in the past, with a little rest and a few adjustements in training, she may very well face the best at 10f at Churchill. If here connections think she's a 9 furlong type, she will be in the Ladies Classic.

[Learned Hand35]

I would expect such gleeful posts over a RA loss at the TVG Board where I unfortunately first found myself when I got into the game.

To revel in the loss of horse fighting its guts out is pretty G-D classless.

[tzipi]

For the life in me I can't understand how any fan could root against any horse that would be good for racing unless you had a wagering interest in the race. :bang:

Next up people will be pulling for Lisa's Booby Trap to lose. :ThmbDown:

It's a different world of fans and fan experience today. Not much knowledge. They think if you lose one race or even finish second(no matter the fractions), you're horrible and should be retired and should not be able to run in the Classic. They think all the greats were undefeated. The think all the past BBC entrants and winners won every race beforehand. They think that all greats ran against overmatched horses every race. The greats didn't. That's why 99% were not undefeated. They had to go places and face the best.

[DeanT]

It sure looked like a good strategy until late...I bet if they had to do it over again though, they wouldn't go out like that...and if you have a horse where you have doubts about getting 10f, why would you go out like that? Rachel has won her last two while coming from slightly off the pace...she came from four lengths out of it in the Mother Goose...

I suppose they feared letting LAT get away to an easy lead early and the rest of the field I suppose they thought they had over a barrel...

I've been calling for Calvin to be replaced since last year...nothing he has done this year has changed my opinion.

I dont think he rode her a hell of a lot differently as he rode her last year. The Preakness was a monster effort at 3/16's. 46.3 and 11 I believe. He was chugging away, she was wide and she was used huge. She still ran a great number and won in 55. I think he thought she was the best and rode her so, and as compared to the Preakness we are not talking out of this world fractions - this time she went second slower at the half and three quarters, (which should have been fine for only an extra 110), but she didnt win this time.

Maybe this year she needs nuanced trips, while last year she could dominate. But I cant really blame Calvin for riding her like she was the best. The winner traded at something like 70-1 at BF. I dont think he should have been the lest bit worried about anyone other than LAT.

[PaceAdvantage]

now you really opened up a can of wormsActually, I'd like to hear what led you to have the winner in your exacta box but not the place horse... :lol:

[Charlie D]

But I cant really blame Calvin for riding her like she was the best.


I don't suppose you can Dean, but to win Grade 1's at 10f you are better coming from off pace as they are normally run at a decent clip and connections should have considered this imho.

[bisket]

I dont think he rode her a hell of a lot differently as he rode her last year. The Preakness was a monster effort at 3/16's. 46.3 and 11 I believe. He was chugging away, she was wide and she was used huge. She still ran a great number and won in 55. I think he thought she was the best and rode her so, and as compared to the Preakness we are not talking out of this world fractions - this time she went second slower at the half and three quarters, (which should have been fine for only an extra 110), but she didnt win this time.

Maybe this year she needs nuanced trips, while last year she could dominate. But I cant really blame Calvin for riding her like she was the best. The winner traded at something like 70-1 at BF. I dont think he should have been the lest bit worried about anyone other than LAT.
the trip is the key for her. she could just blow that crowd she ran against last year off the track. if she's inside and there is speed to run with her she's toast; even at 1 1/16 mile and 1 1/8 mile. thats what history says this year, and thats what happened today. i just thought maybe with the extra 1/8 maybe somebody else could poke their head in front of her and she would finish third.

[pandy]

I picked against Rachel today (wrong closer, I picked the one horse). Saratoga, like Monmouth, has been tough on speed horses most of the meet and to wire a field under pressure going 10 furlongs is a tough task over these types of surfaces.

[bisket]

Actually, I'd like to hear what led you to have the winner in your exacta box but not the place horse... :lol:
your answer is in post 55. maybe i thought with the trip she had today she would run an 85?

[46zilzal]

I picked against Rachel today (wrong closer, I picked the one horse). Saratoga, like Monmouth, has been tough on speed horses most of the meet and to wire a field under pressure going 10 furlongs is a tough task over these types of surfaces.
what are you talking about? SPEED DID GREAT at just about all distances yesterday at SARATOGA

[keithw84]

Nabs? She destroyed her. Rachel just got beaten by a horse that competed last in an overnight claimer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It seems a little silly to say Persistently destroyed her. If Life at Ten had beaten Rachel with the same margin of victory, would the word "destroyed" still be used here?

If I lose a race by a few hundredths of a second, it doesn't matter if I lose to Usain Bolt or Helen Keller... I still lost, but not by much. That said, I wouldn't go so far as to say Rachel outdueling Life at Ten and getting nabbed at the wire was a moral victory, but Rachel was very game today, and I don't think we can conclusively say winning at 10f is out of reach.

[tzipi]

Seems to me that every loser just loses at the wire, if you insist on not recognizing what is actually going on. Hate to sound like a broken record, but, Rachel can't get 10.

jdl

Wow,that's pretty bad. When does every single loser lose at the wire? Who said that? I've seen some good and great horses lose WAY before the wire. You are a bad broken record. She lost at the wire at a 1 1/4 through wicked fractions. SO if they slowed down a bit and ran a bit more noraml, RA wins by 3 over Persistently,she's THEN a 1 1/4 horse. If RA ran a jump faster and held on by a head shes THEN a 1 1/4 horse. But not now off that race. :confused:
Jonnielu bring the crappy experience talk to someone else. Every good/great or whatever route horse has lost by a head by a nose by a length,etc. It didn't mean there were not 10 F horses. But according to you it would've meant that and you would've trashed them. New world of racing fans.

One last second lose at 1 1/4 through wicked fractions tells you a horse can't win at a 1 1/4? Wow. Go through past top horses PP's. Then trash them as not 10 F horses off their first loses at the wire. :rolleyes:

[PaceAdvantage]

your answer is in post 55. maybe i thought with the trip she had today she would run an 85?Today's race absolutely changes nothing about the Zenyatta debate, which is where all this is coming from...I hate to be the one to tell you that...

[David-LV]

Rachel withstood 46.2 and 1:10.2 in the Woodward! Albeit second-rate males. That's not an excuse today. Almost all of my posts on this subject have been about her competition, or lack there of. Check out Life At Ten--only six races ago, last November, she was competing in starter allowance races. There were no St. Trinians in the race, no Unbridled Belles. Even the 3-year-old crop would have juiced the race up. Rachel's a very good racehorse, but she's leaps and bounds in arrears of Zenyatta.

For the record, I blame this loss on Borel and his bonehead move to try and steal the race. His ride on Super Saver in the Travers was abhorrable, too.

I think Borel is all done riding this horse, how do you get caught up in a speed duel in a 5 horse race with the horse of the year, bone head ride by a jockey that does not ride that well at Saratoga.

__________
David-LV

[PaceAdvantage]

I think Borel is all done riding this horse, how do you get caught up in a speed duel in a 5 horse race with the horse of the year, bone head ride by a jockey that does not ride that well at Saratoga.

__________
David-LVIt may have been the strategy going in...think about it...you want to let LAT get an easy early lead? The rest of the field was garbage on paper...I can see where Asmussen's instructions might have been go to the front and take your main opposition out of her game...

Not a horrible strategy, but clearly not a winning one either...

[Cicada]

Rachel's a very good racehorse, but she's leaps and bounds in arrears of Zenyatta.

I don't agree with this...not even a little bit. I watched the race between Winning Colors and Personal Ensign on TV. I was rooting for Winning Colors...because I followed her Triple Crown campaign when she won the Santa Anita Derby and then the Kentucky Derby and how competetive she was in the other races. I was always a big fan of Genuine Risk and how she campaigned in the Triple Crown series.

I was really impressed with Rachel today and how Life at Ten stalked her. Some people are only capable of registering a win as a win and a loss as a loss.

Zenyatta is a great racing mare, but I personally think that Rachel is better. I'm glad Jesse Jackson bought her, so some of us could see how truly good and great she is. Instead of having an owner putting her through the safe, traditional route.

So if you're primary criteria in judging a racehorse is wins vs. losses, fine...whatever floats your boat.

[ArlJim78]

Today's race absolutely changes nothing about the Zenyatta debate, which is where all this is coming from...I hate to be the one to tell you that...
you don't think Zenyatta wins that race today under a hand ride?

[46zilzal]

Zenyatta is a great racing mare, but I personally think that Rachel is better. I'm glad Jesse Jackson bought her, so some of us could see how truly good and great she is. Instead of having an owner putting her through the safe, traditional route.

Die hard fans miss the objective don't they?

[Charlie D]

It may have been the strategy going in...think about it...you want to let LAT get an easy early lead? The rest of the field was garbage on paper...I can see where Asmussen's instructions might have been go to the front and take your main opposition out of her game...

Not a horrible strategy, but clearly not a winning one either...


:ThmbUp: post imho.

Wrong strategy though imho.

[Robert Fischer]

Awful!! Persisently nabs Rachel
In the last few yards, ridden by Alan Garcia. Oh man.... they might retire Rachel now.


what are you talking about? this almost makes up for DMC losing to a 9/5 shot in her vulnerable loss. We all knew Rachel was ripe, at least she lost to Persistently and not L@10.

[PaceAdvantage]

you don't think Zenyatta wins that race today under a hand ride?It doesn't matter. She didn't show up, so we'll never know.

[bisket]

Today's race absolutely changes nothing about the Zenyatta debate, which is where all this is coming from...I hate to be the one to tell you that...
maybe you didn't read where i said if rachel's post was outside life at ten she probably would have won today.... it was earlier in this thread. i'm not saying this because i hate rachel; i thought she was hoy last year. rachel isn't in the same league as zenyatta. plain and simple!!

[PaceAdvantage]

maybe you didn't read where i said if rachel's post was outside life at ten she probably would have won today.... it was earlier in this thread. i'm not saying this because i hate rachel; i thought she was hoy last year. rachel isn't in the same league as zenyatta. plain and simple!!I'm talking about your constant (and annoying) speed figure references.

[46zilzal]

I'm talking about your constant speed figures references.
Final time means zip if you keep overcoming every type of pace scenario thrown at you in a style that historically is vulnerable to loses

[keithw84]

Check out Life At Ten--only six races ago, last November, she was competing in starter allowance races. There were no St. Trinians in the race, no Unbridled Belles. Even the 3-year-old crop would have juiced the race up. Rachel's a very good racehorse, but she's leaps and bounds in arrears of Zenyatta.


I don't really see the relevance of Life at Ten running in allowance races 9 months ago. Cigar was running in allowance races 9 months before he won the BCC.

[Robert Fischer]

this is why breeding outfits are desperately trying to move everything to 9furlongs or shorter.

- because when you get out past 9furlongs, you start to need stamina.

It was a great horseplayer's race - there was lots of "fan money" and a small field, and yet enough prices in spite of a small field.

[bisket]

I'm talking about your constant (and annoying) speed figure references.
it was like a crispy cream on the table right in front of me.... i couldn't resist :D

[depalma113]

Nabs? She destroyed her. Rachel just got beaten by a horse that competed last in an overnight claimer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It was an Optional Claimer and the horse didn't run for a tag.

No one is putting a Grade One placed filly in for a tag, let alone a grand daughter of Heavenly Prize, especially the Phipps.

[Cicada]

Die hard fans miss the objective don't they?
What objective would that be?

[PaceAdvantage]

Final time means zip if you keep overcoming every type of pace scenario thrown at you in a style that historically is vulnerable to losesIt means something when 99% of that "overcoming" is on a surface kind to the "historically vulnerable" AND against fields full of nothing but slugs.

Makes it a lot easier to overcome "historical vulnerability" don't you think? Nobody ever said Zenyatta sucks.

[speed]

I'm talking about your constant (and annoying) speed figure references.
Speaking of speed figures. 4 dirt races today, 2 of those were maidens and only 1 route race. The other 3 were early in the card races 1,2 and 5.

[Robert Fischer]

Die hard fans miss the objective don't they?

horse racing is humbling because even the "experts" often goof up. In the Travers thread, even with several landing a longshot winner, we had lots of redboarding and over-analyzing beyond simple obvious stuff.

[westny]

A claimer? :eek:


Where the rubber meets the.... :D sky!

[PaceAdvantage]

it was like a crispy cream on the table right in front of me.... i couldn't resist :DWhat do you prove by cherry picking a race or two every now and then where speed figs didn't hold up? You don't think I can come up with a lot more races where they do? (even over AWS)

Your contempt for speed figures in this case led you to leave a $64 exacta on the table....

[Robert Fischer]

It was an Optional Claimer and the horse didn't run for a tag.

that kind of logic is dangerous to the wild polarization I thought was law in racing discussion?

[DeanT]

I did not watch today, but was the track slow? I just read on another board that this was the slowest PE since they switched to 10.

[keithw84]

Since the quality of Rachel's competition keeps getting questioned, I'd be interested to see how everyone thinks Life At Ten compares to the horses Zenyatta has faced so far this year.

[PaceAdvantage]

Since the quality of Rachel's competition keeps getting questioned, I'd be interested to see how everyone thinks Life At Ten compares to the horses Zenyatta has faced so far this year.LAT is a multiple graded stakes winner and Grade 1 winner this year, including a victory at a mile and a quarter.

I'd say she compares favorably to any horse Z has faced this year... :lol:

[GMB@BP]

LAT is a multiple graded stakes winner and Grade 1 winner this year, including victories at a mile and a quarter.

I'd say she compares favorably to any horse Z has faced this year... :lol:

Someone said that the runner up in RA's last race also crushed today over some horse Zenyatta beat so that further is evidence.

[letswastemoney]

Since the quality of Rachel's competition keeps getting questioned, I'd be interested to see how everyone thinks Life At Ten compares to the horses Zenyatta has faced so far this year.
Retire Life At Ten. She's no good.

Persistently beat L@T, which must mean Life At Ten can't run anymore! Life At Ten should be immediately retired and turned out to a pasture where she can graze grass all day and not do anything else. Why run Life At Ten if she got beat by a claimer?

Life At Ten definitely is not G1 material. It doesn't matter if she already won a G1 race a few months ago, she's not G1 anymore.

[Spalding No!]

It doesn't matter. She didn't show up, so we'll never know.
I think the reason these two will never face each other is because they are the same horse.

Zenyatta is the Laura De Seroux-trained Azeri (late-developing win macine against CA cream puffs), while Rachel Alexandra is the D. Wayne Lukas-trained Azeri (ex-HOY, less dominant, but still Grade 1-calibur).

Azeri lost the Personal Ensign, too, to another Phipps filly (Storm Flag Flying) after getting into a speed duel.

Personally, I enjoyed Azeri's up-and-down 2004 campaign much more than either of her previous two. She even got dusted by over 20 lengths by arch-rival Sightseek at Belmont (talk about having a reason to retire), only to exact revenge on that filly in the Go For Wand at Saratoga.

[jonnielu]

Wow,that's pretty bad. When does every single loser lose at the wire? Who said that? I've seen some good and great horses lose WAY before the wire. You are a bad broken record. She lost at the wire at a 1 1/4 through wicked fractions. SO if they slowed down a bit and ran a bit more noraml, RA wins by 3 over Persistently,she's THEN a 1 1/4 horse. If RA ran a jump faster and held on by a head shes THEN a 1 1/4 horse. But not now off that race. :confused:
Jonnielu bring the crappy experience talk to someone else. Every good/great or whatever route horse has lost by a head by a nose by a length,etc. It didn't mean there were not 10 F horses. But according to you it would've meant that and you would've trashed them. New world of racing fans.

One last second lose at 1 1/4 through wicked fractions tells you a horse can't win at a 1 1/4? Wow. Go through past top horses PP's. Then trash them as not 10 F horses off their first loses at the wire. :rolleyes:

I'm not talking about all horses, I'm talking about Rachel Alexandra. After the 2009 Preakness I said she can't win at 10f. Considering facts is not trashing anyone or anything.

jdl

[FenceBored]

I did not watch today, but was the track slow? I just read on another board that this was the slowest PE since they switched to 10.

Close, it's the second slowest. :) 2001 was 2:04.60 over a fast track with fractions of 24.88, 49.09, 1:13.41 and 1:38.49.

[PaceAdvantage]

I think the reason these two will never face each other is because they are the same horse.

Zenyatta is the Laura De Seroux-trained Azeri (late-developing win macine against CA cream puffs), while Rachel Alexandra is the D. Wayne Lukas-trained Azeri (ex-HOY, less dominant, but still Grade 1-calibur).

Azeri lost the Personal Ensign, too, to another Phipps filly (Storm Flag Flying) after getting into a speed duel.

Personally, I enjoyed Azeri's up-and-down 2004 campaign much more than either of her previous two. She even got dusted by over 20 lengths by arch-rival Sightseek at Belmont (talk about having a reason to retire), only to exact revenge on that filly in the Go For Wand at Saratoga.Unfortunately, it seems Zenyatta has ruined racing for a lot of people. If you don't win every time, off to the killers you should go.

[KingChas]

I think Borel is all done riding this horse, how do you get caught up in a speed duel in a 5 horse race with the horse of the year, bone head ride by a jockey that does not ride that well at Saratoga.

__________
David-LV

I hope Borel is done riding this horse.
Five wide 1st turn to keep LA10 wide and burn her out.
He succeded which led to RA running a lot longer race than the 1&1/4 distance.
A horse of RA's magnitude should not have been ridden like that,he should of just kept the horse to task.

[tzipi]

I'm not talking about all horses, I'm talking about Rachel Alexandra. After the 2009 Preakness I said she can't win at 10f. Considering facts is not trashing anyone or anything.

jdl

Can't win means,not even close Jonn. If they run normally,RA wins easily over LAT and Persistently. Oh then she's a can win at 1 1/4,right? :rolleyes: . She ran wicked fractions and just lost at the wire. AGAIN,every top class route horse in history lost long routes. They were not route horses? She just lost in the last jumps to fast fractions. So that means she can't even win at 10 F??? Geez. Slows down just a bit and she wins.
Last I checked LAT, a top winner and runner was 10+ lengths behind her. Give me a break with that logic.

[PaceAdvantage]

After the 2009 Preakness I said she can't win at 10f. Can I get a fact check on aisle 5?

[tzipi]

Unfortunately, it seems Zenyatta has ruined racing for a lot of people. If you don't win every time, off to the killers you should go.

Just what I was saying. It's a new breed of fans and knowledge today. If you lose,you are not good and top future races are out of the question. In fact you should retire. OORRRR you can run against overmatched horses every race. Imagine these people around the past greats when they lost preps or regular races.

[bane]

Call me crazy but if RA blows her next start, change trainers and run her at 5!

It's not like she's going to produce sales horses (Jackson will run them) and she's not by Unbridled Song, she's very sound.

I doubt it however.

[Robert Fischer]

to be fair to Calvin, he helped condition her in the mornings to that explosiveness, when he would work her early in her career.

One theory is that the perfect storm of Borel's techniques in the mornings along with how modern medicine training applications and her sleeping-dog-talent contribued to the amazing "wake up" as well the difficulty they have had "turning her back on" and "keeping her on" after the layoff. It isn't necessarily fair to say those elements where factors.

[cj]

I've been calling for Calvin to be replaced since last year...nothing he has done this year has changed my opinion.

Exactly...outside of Churchill he is average, at best. In New York he isn't that good.

[Grits]

Call me crazy but if RA blows her next start, change trainers and run her at 5!

It's not like she's going to produce sales horses (Jackson will run them) and she's not by Unbridled Song, she's very sound.

I doubt it however.

CRAZY!

[cj]

what are you talking about? SPEED DID GREAT at just about all distances yesterday at SARATOGA

Oh, now you are a short term guy? This is 180 from what you said about the inner turf last week. 1 1/4 miles almost never favors speed, regardless of how the other races are run.

[Robert Fischer]

Call me crazy but if RA blows her next start, change trainers and run her at 5!

It's not like she's going to produce sales horses (Jackson will run them) and she's not by Unbridled Song, she's very sound.

I doubt it however.

she could certainly get a temporary boost in a Pletcher or Dutrow type of barn, but I'm not sure that is best for the game.

If she is sound, I'd rather see her Zenyatta, Blame , Quality Road, and some of the top Euros run in some grade and group I battles , even if they trade a number of losses. A [trainer]"move-up", isn't always the best thing.

[PaceAdvantage]

Exactly...outside of Churchill he is average, at best. In New York he isn't that good.I can't really blame Calvin for this one though the more I watch and think about it...his riding out there really had the look of premeditation by the entire team...don't you think?

[Robert Fischer]

unfortunately for the rest of the world, the KYD is @ CD

[bane]

I can't really blame Calvin for this one though the more I watch and think about it...his riding out there really had the look of premeditation by the entire team...don't you think?

You know better than to use big words like tHAt around a bunch of race trackers!

[Robert Fischer]

I can't really blame Calvin for this one though the more I watch and think about it...his riding out there really had the look of premeditation by the entire team...don't you think?

exactly.
we all knew 10 furlongs was a question going in.

we practically were treating this like a mile and a half race in terms of stamina questions

[thaskalos]

Unfortunately, it seems Zenyatta has ruined racing for a lot of people. If you don't win every time, off to the killers you should go.Not to worry...Zenyatta will be retired at the end of this year.

Racing will then go back to normal...with losing again being commonplace in the sport.

[speed]

I can't really blame Calvin for this one though the more I watch and think about it...his riding out there really had the look of premeditation by the entire team...don't you think?
Last time i heard that word my attorney was seated next to me.

[jonnielu]

Can't win means,not even close Jonn. If they run normally,RA wins easily over LAT and Persistently. Oh then she's a can win at 1 1/4,right? :rolleyes: . She ran wicked fractions and just lost at the wire. AGAIN,every top class route horse in history lost long routes. They were not route horses? She just lost in the last jumps to fast fractions. So that means she can't even win at 10 F??? Geez. Slows down just a bit and she wins.
Last I checked LAT, a top winner and runner was 10+ lengths behind her. Give me a break with that logic.

If this, if that, is just so much woulda, coulda, shoulda. You don't think the stable has considered your simple remedies in the past year and a half? Maybe it is not so simple to re-train this particular horse for a more positive use of her speed over a 10f distance. Maybe the differences in horses are not so great, and/or as obvious as you believe.

We can just wait and see, maybe the stable will read your tips here, and apply them for the BCC.

jdl

[Grits]

A [trainer]"move-up", isn't always the best thing.

When one's in the barn of the Trainer of the Year, two years running, where might a move UP be?

[Tom]

It doesn't matter. She didn't show up, so we'll never know.

There's a much better 10 furlong dirt race coming up....that has been he goal all year.

We'll see who shows up the real big race.

Rachel had a change to meet Z on dirt early in the year and backed out. Something about not being fit enough? Whatever, will she pass again?

[PaceAdvantage]

Anyone notice Rachel was even with the winner during the pull up? I guess that's because Garcia was pumping his fist after the wire while Calvin was still driving and whipping, prepping Rachel for the 12f BC Turf? :lol:

But seriously, I found that a little odd...Rachel is supposed to be dead-tired, is she not? How does she get back up to the winner like that in only a few strides?

[Mineshaft]

Do you really think she will run in the classic?





No 1 1/4 is too far for her ive been saying that for a year now. 1 1/8 is perfect for her anything longer is too far

[cj]

I can't really blame Calvin for this one though the more I watch and think about it...his riding out there really had the look of premeditation by the entire team...don't you think?

Yeah, hindsight is 20/20. I think they treated like a match race and demolished the other competitor, but it wasn't a match race and the price was paid.

I agree with the strategy, and said before the race I would take it to LAT and she would have no chance. However, does he have no sense of pace? At some point you have to adjust. It was obvious going into the turn that LAT was cooked, relax, even let her pass you if you must.

All that said, she isn't the same. Last year she wins this easy even with that trip. No filly of the winner's ability was coming within a football field of her.

[DeanT]

Call me crazy but if RA blows her next start, change trainers and run her at 5!


Not for me. But I understand your POV. IMO:

I watched Rachel last year and became a huge fan, not because she won races, we see that each year in the 3YO division. I loved watching her because she was a superstar who spit out her competition like she was grazing on grass in the morning.

Superstars, of which we have had two to watch the last two seasons, are what I follow racing for. I could not care less about 99% of the races - I am a bettor and I play many races a day. But for horses like Zenyatta and Rachel I stop, turn off the ADW, and watch greatness.

Great horses are fantastic to watch. There is something about them, and the other horses know it too, in my opinion. Last year in the Woodward, a horse like Rachel took it to the other speed horses so much so that one of them was so broken, he was tweaked and gave up. In this years Vanity, St Trinians was demolished. She tried so hard to beat the big mare that she went lame. She could not even get up to answer the bell for her next scheduled start.

That's what superstars in the equine world do - crush other horses spirit so damn bad it affects them. And we see very, very few who can do that.

I dont want to watch Rachel race another year where she needs soft fractions to win, or for someone not to enter against her, or a great ride to get up. I dont want to see any superstar race, who is not his or her old self. Horses like Rachel and Z are once in a generation horses, imo, its their dominance and pure talent at their best that I want to watch.

[speed]

The pace was fast but she still should have been able to win.

If the race was 1 mile and an 1/8 she would not have broken 150. Different distances i know but a sensible comparison i think. Ran well but not what many expected.

[tzipi]

No 1 1/4 is too far for her ive been saying that for a year now. 1 1/8 is perfect for her anything longer is too far


Thats intelligent. She just lost at the wire through wicked fractions at 1 1/4 and LAT was 10+ lengths behind her but she's not a 10 F horse at all? "Too far" :lol: I guess either is any other good route horse in history after they lost 10 F races. Just admit what you're trying to do. Unexpierenced fans will believe you.

[Grits]

Fine post, Dean. Really fine.

[WinterTriangle]

Dammit. I jsut posted a 4 paragraph long post with my reasoning how I handicapped the race and picked Persistently to win with Rachel 2nd, and it got eaten.
Too tired to do it over again now, but just wanted to say that anyone who saw Rachel run that race, and has negative stuff to say, is just being a spiteful weenie.

You saw a G1 level horse run 2nd. (The point of being able to handicap G1 races is to find the G1 horses. ;) I know that sounds overly simple, but it's not. )

I may post it all again tomorrow. I stayed up part of the night to figure out this race because I wasn't going to wager unless I knew I could see it different way........and not be blindsided by looking at the wrong stuff. I had to look at why each horse was entered, and watched all the replays last night.

LAT was NOT going to beat Rachel, BTW. :) Not a G1 level horsie.

Anyway, maybe I'll post my long post again later if anyone is interested.

Rachel was amazing today. Hopefully, the race dynamic won't be such that she has to run an entire 10F in a pace duel. In this race, she had no choice. Otherwise, she'd have won.

There were pretty severe problems with the #4, #1, and #5 IMHO. That left only 2 horses for me.

[PaceAdvantage]

Quotes from the runner up's connections:

In a statement, Jess Jackson, co-owner of Rachel Alexandra, said, “We are disappointed in the result, as we are sure her countless fans are, but we are certainly not disappointed in her. She is still a superstar in our hearts and minds. The old sports adage applies ... on any given Sunday, anything can happen.”

Her trainer Steve Asmussen, said he and Jackson would evaluate Rachel Alexandra's condition before making a decision on where she would next race.

"We want to evaluate who we are and who she is and where she’s at. We’re just worried about her well-being,” he said somewhat cryptically.

Asmussen added, “The winner won the race and I don’t want to take anything away from that. In a five-horse field, you can’t complain about where you are. It is what it is. I thought [Rachel] put a very good mare [Life At Ten] away. It obviously took more out of her on the front end than we would have hoped for. When she moved away from [Life At Ten] that’s what you were hoping to see. Then she got run down late.

“I’m very disappointed that she lost, but I am always very happy with Rachel. It hurts to lose and you’re disappointed for it, but if that’s the case, just think about how happy she’s made you and all the things she has done for us. She’s a tremendous mare. If she isn’t exactly where she was last year, hopefully she can get back there.” http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/58633/persistently-shocks-rachel-in-personal-ensign?source=rss

[bisket]

What do you prove by cherry picking a race or two every now and then where speed figs didn't hold up? You don't think I can come up with a lot more races where they do? (even over AWS)

Your contempt for speed figures in this case led you to leave a $64 exacta on the table....
prove something by cherry picking? that i know when i have a race figgered.

[WinterTriangle]

exactly.
we all knew 10 furlongs was a question going in.


It wasn't a question for just Rachel.

So if you have a race where 10F (at a G1 level) is a question for several horses in the race (either due to pedigree, fitness, etc.) then the task is to find WHO it's going to be the least problem for.

Looking at my stats, RA was one of 3 horses who had that ability and one of those wasn't fit. I couldn't very well rate her against a stamina stayer like Yeats. He wasn't in the race. :)

What horse did you think could get 10F, on Saratoga dirt, with ease?

[Mineshaft]

Thats intelligent. She just lost at the wire through wicked fractions at 1 1/4 and LAT was 10+ lengths behind her but she's not a 10 F horse at all? "Too far" :lol: I guess either is any other good route horse in history after they lost 10 F races. Just admit what you're trying to do. Unexpierenced fans will believe you.





dude wake the hell up shes vulnerable at a 1 1/4. Zenyatta would dust her at a 1 1/4. Likewise Rachael woul dust Zen at a 1 1/8

Bad decision by Asmussen sending her a 1 1/4

[cj]

dude wake the hell up shes vulnerable at a 1 1/4. Zenyatta would dust her at a 1 1/4. Likewise Rachael woul dust Zen at a 1 1/8

Bad decision by Asmussen sending her a 1 1/4

Why was it a bad decision? Now they know. At least they aren't afraid to lose, never have been.

[PaceAdvantage]

dude wake the hell up shes vulnerable at a 1 1/4. Zenyatta would dust her at a 1 1/4. Likewise Rachael woul dust Zen at a 1 1/8

Bad decision by Asmussen sending her a 1 1/4Rachel has lost at a bunch of different distances in her career. I guess she's vulnerable at every distance.

What makes 10f so special?

I doubt Zenyatta dusts Rachel in a full field going 10f where Rachel doesn't have to duel with the only other contender in the race.

Likewise, I doubt Zenyatta gets dusted by Rachel at 9f. Dusted=serious beat down.

[keithw84]

I think the reason these two will never face each other is because they are the same horse.


Come to think of it, I've never seen Zenyatta and Rachel in the same place at the same time...

This would also explain why "Zenyatta" scratched at Churchill last year... it would take too much out of her for "Rachel" to run the Oaks on the same day.

[Cat Thief]

I don't think she's done. Many horses are nabbed at the wire ... happens all the time ... usually distance limitations. In think she'd do well in the Breeders Cup Distaff

[tucker6]

you don't think Zenyatta wins that race today under a hand ride?If Zenyatta's in that race, it would have been run much differently than it was. Or don't you even know that small part of racing??

[mostpost]

I don't see that there is anything in Rachel's pedigree that would prevent her from winning at 10 furlongs or further. If we look at Dr. Roman's Dosage profile we see she has a D.I. of 1.55 and a C.D. of 0.43. Both of which are lower than Zenyatta's. I agree that dosage is a poor way of determining the winner of a particular race, but I think it is valid in determining stamina as opposed to speed.
If we look at her ancestors, Medaglia d'Oro won the Travers at a mile and a Quarter and was second in the BC Classic and Dubai World Cup both at a mile and a quarter and in the mile and a half Belmont Stakes. Farther back in his pedigree we have horses like Sadlers Wells a winner of two Grade 1 mile and a quarter races and second in the mile and a half King George and Queen Elizabeth Stakes.
So, to what can we attribute Rachel Alexandra's failure to succed at ten furlongs today? Two words. Training. I mean two words: Steve Asmussen.
In my opinion Asmussen does not ask enough of RA in her workouts.
These are Rachel's four workouts prior to the Personal Ensign.
August 2: 5 furlongs 1:02.45
August 9: 6 furlongs 1:12.96
August 16: 6 furlongs 1:13.42
August 23: 4 furlongs 48:89

Rachel Alexandra can run those times while sipping a cup of coffee. How can workouts like that improve her condition? Again, in my opinion, Rachels first three workouts should have been at least a second faster. Her last workout should have been at five furlongs not four and should have been a minute or faster.

[Saratoga_Mike]

It sure looked like a good strategy until late...I bet if they had to do it over again though, they wouldn't go out like that...and if you have a horse where you have doubts about getting 10f, why would you go out like that? Rachel has won her last two while coming from slightly off the pace...she came from four lengths out of it in the Mother Goose...

I suppose they feared letting LAT get away to an easy lead early and the rest of the field I suppose they thought they had over a barrel...

I've been calling for Calvin to be replaced since last year...nothing he has done this year has changed my opinion.

Could not agree more - what are the odds it actually happens, though?

[citation'48]

Thats intelligent. She just lost at the wire through wicked fractions at 1 1/4 and LAT was 10+ lengths behind her but she's not a 10 F horse at all? "Too far" :lol: I guess either is any other good route horse in history after they lost 10 F races. Just admit what you're trying to do. Unexpierenced fans will believe you.

After reading comments like the one above I had to stop and second guess myself. I even went to another forum, one w/lots of young fans and Rachel lovers. Theoretically they should know less about pace and times. But reading there I was reassured. I do believe this may be the only forum on the planet that refers to splits in 23 and (plenty of) change, 47 and change and 1:12 as "wicked". Or even unusually fast. Generally, when a horse finishes up their final quater of a 10 furlong race in :27 seconds, the opinion is that that horse is indeed, not proficient at 10 furlongs.

You don't need to be a Zenyatta fan to realize this, though the comments about her in this thread are almost as entertaining. Long live the lunatic fringe!

[Saratoga_Mike]

I don't see that there is anything in Rachel's pedigree that would prevent her from winning at 10 furlongs or further. If we look at Dr. Roman's Dosage profile we see she has a D.I. of 1.55 and a C.D. of 0.43. Both of which are lower than Zenyatta's. I agree that dosage is a poor way of determining the winner of a particular race, but I think it is valid in determining stamina as opposed to speed.
If we look at her ancestors, Medaglia d'Oro won the Travers at a mile and a Quarter and was second in the BC Classic and Dubai World Cup both at a mile and a quarter and in the mile and a half Belmont Stakes. Farther back in his pedigree we have horses like Sadlers Wells a winner of two Grade 1 mile and a quarter races and second in the mile and a half King George and Queen Elizabeth Stakes.
So, to what can we attribute Rachel Alexandra's failure to succed at ten furlongs today? Two words. Training. I mean two words: Steve Asmussen.
In my opinion Asmussen does not ask enough of RA in her workouts.
These are Rachel's four workouts prior to the Personal Ensign.
August 2: 5 furlongs 1:02.45
August 9: 6 furlongs 1:12.96
August 16: 6 furlongs 1:13.42
August 23: 4 furlongs 48:89

Rachel Alexandra can run those times while sipping a cup of coffee. How can workouts like that improve her condition? Again, in my opinion, Rachels first three workouts should have been at least a second faster. Her last workout should have been at five furlongs not four and should have been a minute or faster.

Absurd. She raced in late July at 1 1/8 and mid-June at 1 1/8. Lack of fitness had absolutely nothing to do with this loss.

[ArlJim78]

If Zenyatta's in that race, it would have been run much differently than it was. Or don't you even know that small part of racing??
What leads you to believe that even if the race was run much differently that Zenyatta wouldn't have inhaled this field?

[keithw84]

In my opinion Asmussen does not ask enough of RA in her workouts.
These are Rachel's four workouts prior to the Personal Ensign.
August 2: 5 furlongs 1:02.45
August 9: 6 furlongs 1:12.96
August 16: 6 furlongs 1:13.42
August 23: 4 furlongs 48:89

Rachel Alexandra can run those times while sipping a cup of coffee. How can workouts like that improve her condition? Again, in my opinion, Rachels first three workouts should have been at least a second faster. Her last workout should have been at five furlongs not four and should have been a minute or faster.

If I recall correctly, criticism of Asmussen's training of Rachel (i.e. not running her fast enough) goes back several months. What is the philosophy behind not pushing her harder?

[PaceAdvantage]

After reading comments like the one above I had to stop and second guess myself. I even went to another forum, one w/lots of young fans and Rachel lovers. Theoretically they should know less about pace and times. But reading there I was reassured. I do believe this may be the only forum on the planet that refers to splits in 23 and (plenty of) change, 47 and change and 1:12 as "wicked". Or even unusually fast. Generally, when a horse finishes up their final quater of a 10 furlong race in :27 seconds, the opinion is that that horse is indeed, not proficient at 10 furlongs.

You don't need to be a Zenyatta fan to realize this, though the comments about her in this thread are almost as entertaining. Long live the lunatic fringe!Way to contribute. Damn shame that you only have 10 posts here...

Let me ask you a question. Do you generally paint with such a broad brush based on one person's opinion? I guess you missed my post where I commented to tzipi that today's fractions were nowhere near suicidal.

But again, thanks much for the contribution. It was actually very enlightening in more ways than one.

[keithw84]

I do believe this may be the only forum on the planet that refers to splits in 23 and (plenty of) change, 47 and change and 1:12 as "wicked". Or even unusually fast. Generally, when a horse finishes up their final quater of a 10 furlong race in :27 seconds, the opinion is that that horse is indeed, not proficient at 10 furlongs.

"Honest" is probably the word I would use to describe the pace, but wouldn't it also be fair to say that running neck and neck at those fractions will take more out of a horse than having an uncontested lead?

I did think the last quarter seemed incredibly slow.

[Jasonm921]

I don't blame him at all. It was a match race so he raced his foe. Handicappers have been calling him to race only LAT because the rest of the field was awful. Andy S in the pre-game show said "send her", and I do not know anyone who disagreed (before the race anyway).

She came her last quarter in 27.1 and got beat. A lot of horses who come their last quarter in a mile and a quarter race in pacing horse times, lose. She lost, so be it. No need to blame Steve A, or Calvin, or anyone. IMO.

He did what he had to do. Can you picture Asmussen telling Borel.."let Life at Ten go ...let Rachel rate and sit back 3-4 lengths off Life at Ten but watch out for Persistently". We would be talking about a wire to wire win for Life at Ten. The ignorance of legit racing knowledge on this forum is startling. Three hours ago Life at Ten was a finalist for Female Eclipse honors and now she has been erased from this race by the Rachel haters. Racing is not static. When you have two powerhouses coverge like they did this can happen...and it did.

[tzipi]

After reading comments like the one above I had to stop and second guess myself. I even went to another forum, one w/lots of young fans and Rachel lovers. Theoretically they should know less about pace and times. But reading there I was reassured. I do believe this may be the only forum on the planet that refers to splits in 23 and (plenty of) change, 47 and change and 1:12 as "wicked". Or even unusually fast. Generally, when a horse finishes up their final quater of a 10 furlong race in :27 seconds, the opinion is that that horse is indeed, not proficient at 10 furlongs.

You don't need to be a Zenyatta fan to realize this, though the comments about her in this thread are almost as entertaining. Long live the lunatic fringe!

I don't buy you bull.... I will say "stuff". Plenty of very good and some great horses have finished up in that time after those fractions. but you wouldnt know that. Go look it up. Or dont because you're just talking "stuff". 23 and plenty of change" :rolleyes: Yup, you're right. I guess they were slow or normal fractions for 1 1/4. Geez. You can have your great other website.
It's my opinion on those fractions and race. You will not convince me different. I've been around the game more than just a player. Sorry scratch "wicked", I'll say quick. Happy.

[Jasonm921]

If Zenyatta's in that race, it would have been run much differently than it was. Or don't you even know that small part of racing??
Very true. They identified the threat....nullified it. However a McGaughey horse woke up.

[PaceAdvantage]

The ignorance of legit racing knowledge on this forum is startling.Another who takes the posts of a vociferous few and applies it with a broad brush to an entire population. When will it end?

[senortout]

It means something when 99% of that "overcoming" is on a surface kind to the "historically vulnerable" AND against fields full of nothing but slugs.

Makes it a lot easier to overcome "historical vulnerability" don't you think? Nobody ever said Zenyatta sucks.

I here defy you to name one closer who always brought their 'A' game and got the job done......on any surface.....no, wait.....name just one other closer who has even won 85 percent of their starts, lifetime, from dead last or thereabout, on 'her kind' of surface......
1.Zenyatta
2.?????????
should be easy...go ahead

senortout

[DeanT]

The post-race comments (always to be taken with a grain of salt) are interesting:

Shug (points to Winter Triangle's handicapping about the winner anyway :) ) "“I thought that [Rachel Alexandra] might be a little vulnerable going a mile and a quarter, and I knew we’d run a mile and a quarter. I knew we would run a mile and a quarter. Her female family runs a long way."

Pletcher on fractions: "“She came up a little empty at the three-eighths pole. We were going to let our filly run her race and let her find her rhythm; :47 [for the half-mile] was comfortable fractions for her."

showing the Toddster and the rider disagreed in the post race pow wow:

John Velazquez, jockey aboard third-place finisher Life At Ten (No. 4): “That was a speed duel. I thought my filly would be on the lead, [Calvin Borel, jockey aboard Rachel Alexandra (No. 2)] would rate in second, but he sent her out and got in the lead and all that did was create more problems for my horse because now she was engaged. But I wasn’t going to take her back; I just left her alone. I wasn’t going to go back either, so I just held my position and left it alone. The half-mile pole came and I thought she was dead and then the three eighths pole came and she was done. Nothing left.”

Borel, : "“After we put away Life At Ten at the quarter pole, I didn’t feel any acceleration and I got worried. She wasn’t really there. "

More at Paulick:

http://www.paulickreport.com/blog/persistently-personal/

PS: Amazingly classy and great comment by SA after the race that Pace posted. I get more and more impressed with him year after year. (jmo)

[tzipi]

fact is they don't have a clue....but cj has a huge data base to prove he knows what he's doing...

Yes Bisket, 23 and change and 47 and change in a 1 1/4 race while opening up by 10+ on a field is not quick :rolleyes: . So if they slowed down a bit and relaxed a bit from those fractions and came back 5 furlongs,RA loses by more,right? You fool very few, if that.

[PaceAdvantage]

I here defy you to name one closer who always brought their 'A' game and got the job done......on any surface.....no, wait.....name just one other closer who has even won 85 percent of their starts, lifetime, from dead last or thereabout, on 'her kind' of surface......
1.Zenyatta
2.?????????
should be easy...go ahead

senortoutI can't think of another Grade 1 horse who has had things so easy...Zenyatta is indeed in a league of her own, you are correct.

Surface fits her running style perfectly...would be akin to Rachel being able to race every time over a super-duper speed favoring surface.

Fields full of nothing each and every time...LAT is heads and tails above anything Zenyatta has faced this year.

Even when she races against the best in the country, they are handicapped because they were forced to run over a surface where they clearly are not at their best.

Not Zenyatta's fault. But she is in a league of her own...just not the league you are thinking of...

[tzipi]

I here defy you to name one closer who always brought their 'A' game and got the job done......on any surface.....no, wait.....name just one other closer who has even won 85 percent of their starts, lifetime, from dead last or thereabout, on 'her kind' of surface......
1.Zenyatta
2.?????????
should be easy...go ahead

senortout

Name one closer in history who 95% of the time stayed in mostly one spot on a obscure surface against competition who was way below their.... ah forget it.
How many Pacific Classics has she run in?

[PaceAdvantage]

John Velazquez, jockey aboard third-place finisher Life At Ten (No. 4): “That was a speed duel. I thought my filly would be on the lead, [Calvin Borel, jockey aboard Rachel Alexandra (No. 2)] would rate in second, but he sent her out and got in the lead and all that did was create more problems for my horse because now she was engaged.Tell that bolded red part to "bisket."

[Charlie D]

dude wake the hell up shes vulnerable at a 1 1/4. Zenyatta would dust her at a 1 1/4. Likewise Rachael woul dust Zen at a 1 1/8

Bad decision by Asmussen sending her a 1 1/4


Ravens Pass lost five times at mile before winning two at that distance and winning Classic.


Just thought i'd stick that in for people to ponder.

[WinterTriangle]

What leads you to believe that even if the race was run much differently that Zenyatta wouldn't have inhaled this field?

Well that is kinda a good question. Zenyatta could probably close a lot faster into tiring horses at 10F than Persistently.

However a McGaughey horse woke up.

The horse was already awake.

It's not like the Phipps, who bred and owned Personal Ensign herself, were entering a race named for her, hoping against hope that their filly would "wake up". :D

Believe me, Shug has been working her specifically for this. It's part of the charm of her winning. If you were handicapping connections "intentions", you couldn't possibly overlook that angle, could you? :) (Unless you don't handicap intentions, or ask why horses are in a race.)

[Jasonm921]

The best part of this madness is that people are so flustered that they are confusing who is arguing what. PACE-- I AM ARGUING THE SAME POINTS AS YOU.

[PaceAdvantage]

The best part of this madness is that people are so flustered that they are confusing who is arguing what. PACE-- I AM ARGUING THE SAME POINTS AS YOU.I'm not flustered or confused. I know exactly that you are arguing the same points as me.

However, you painted this entire forum with a very broad brush based on the comments of a select few, and that I took offense to.

The ignorance of legit racing knowledge BY A SELECT FEW on this forum is startling.There...I fixed it for you.

[Jasonm921]

Well that is kinda a good question. Zenyatta could probably close a lot faster into tiring horses at 10F than Persistently.



The horse was already awake.

It's not like the Phipps, who owned Personal Ensign herself, were entering a race named for her, hoping against hope that their filly would "wake up".

Believe me, Shug has been working her specifically for this. It's part of the charm of her winning. If you were handicapping connections "intentions", you couldn't possibly overlook that angle, could you? :) (Unless you don't handicap intentions, or ask why horses are in a race.)


You're kidding right? I actually used that logic with her in the BC two years ago and left there empty handed. If you have used that logic with Shug the last few years you would have starved. I am a big Shug fan but lets face facts. His horses on dirt have not done well in recent years.

[Grits]

PS: Amazingly classy and great comment by SA after the race that Pace posted. I get more and more impressed with him year after year. (jmo)

Steve Asmussen has always shown grace. Moreso than any trainer I've listened to in a long while. Doesn't matter whether he's won or lost, he's always gracious. He genuinely seems to feel privileged to do what he does for a living. And that's rare.

[PaceAdvantage]

WT, Shugs own post-race comments point to the fact that they were taking a shot here simply because the race came up short...they took a flyer and it paid off...it's not like they have been pointing to this for the past six months...simply biding their time prepping in optional claimers... :lol:

[tzipi]

dude wake the hell up shes vulnerable at a 1 1/4. Zenyatta would dust her at a 1 1/4. Likewise Rachael woul dust Zen at a 1 1/8

Bad decision by Asmussen sending her a 1 1/4

Great post :rolleyes:

As Charlie D posted. Ravens Pass lost at a mile a ton of times before winning BCC at 1 1/4. Hmmm. Well we know you didn't have Ravens Pass then based on you great logic. A near wire loss through quick fractions means a horse can't get a 1 1/4/ :D . The logic in racig is amazing these days.
Zen's connections could've entered the PE and dusted RA at the 1 1/4 if they wanted to. I know I know, that last race and field at Del Mar was too tough to pass up again.

[Jasonm921]

Count the number of dopey comments on here and its a bit more than a few.

[Saratoga_Mike]

I'm not flustered or confused. I know exactly that you are arguing the same points as me.

However, you painted this entire forum with a very broad brush based on the comments of a select few, and that I took offense to.

There...I fixed it for you.

You do tend to get fired up when Rachel races. It's almost better than the race itself.

[tzipi]

You do tend to get fired up when Rachel races. It's almost better than the race itself.

I think Pace gets fired up at the ridiculous comments. Those are the only ones he goes after.

[Charlie D]

You do tend to get fired up when Rachel races. It's almost better than the race itself.

Good capping Mike


He does :lol:

[PaceAdvantage]

Count the number of dopey comments on here and its a bit more than a few.If you've already counted, spare me the work and simply present the report. My guess is the names you come up with will have many of the same qualities...small post counts and/or newly registered...

Whatever...doesn't matter...

[Saratoga_Mike]

I think Pace gets fired up at the ridiculous comments. Those are the only ones he goes after.

Whatever the cause, I like to see him on the war path.

[Nikki1997]

Nothing insane about the pace whatsoever .

There was no speed duel whether the field was immediately behind or ten lengths behind .

Life at Ten was 3/4 length off RA, and Borel floated her wide and rode with a loose rein--hard to even consider criticising what he did .

RA did not open up on LAT , rather LAT backed up , and Rachel ran on guts and rubber legs from the mile on--she had no closing punch, and you can spin it any way you want .

She was under the whip until Borel saw it was futile .

The last half was 52 and change, and the winner's last quarter was almost 27 seconds---truly trotting horse territory .

This does not make me a hater, but a realist--which all you claim to be .

The look on that filly's face was the same as in the Woodward--feel free to post your laugh icons, but it is no laughing matter .

I feel for the filly--this was a struggle from the mile on and she knew it .

She is better than this half baked training job shows .

She is no 10 furlong horse--which in itself is no shame--truthfully no one else in the race was either, and LAT's Delaware race she dictated the pace and was suspect here as an undertrained Pletcher horse .

What is missing this year, is the Ferrari acceleration that she had coming around the far turn at all distances she ran in .

That blast of speed was only topped by Secretariat in horses I have seen in similar instances over decades, and it carried her to the wire on momentum .

She may have won this race last year, but this year, she is suspect at any distance, because she does NOT finish fast .

I can't wait for the fake Beyer on this one, and yes I am going to try again, time to squelch the slow Zenyatta talk----you will never see her crawl to the wire, nor do I think she even goes slower in her first than this last quarter, not that it matters .

Feel free to delete this too, if it hurts your widdle feelings----Mikki

[DeanT]

Steve Asmussen has always shown grace. Moreso than any trainer I've listened to in a long while. Doesn't matter whether he's won or lost, he's always gracious. He genuinely seems to feel privileged to do what he does for a living. And that's rare.
Even when he was at the Apple Blossom and Rachel did not make it. He watched the race with JS. He said all the right things and it looked like he meant it. Both those trainers know how hard it is to keep a good horse going, and how much pressure it is. Not to mention, how lucky they are to have one in the barn.

Anyhow, off topic and all, but I reallly like people like that.

[Jasonm921]

Pace went after me and I'm just pointing out that people have erased Life at Ten from this whole discission like it was a matchrace between RA and Persistently. Three hours ago the Eclipse Award would have been between Zenyatta and Life at Ten. Rachel puts her away and gets caught....it happens. People on here, whether it is emotions or lack of sound racing knowledge, are not understanding what happened today.

[Sericm]

What a stellar record this horse has this year.

2 wins 3 losses.

All three losses against NOBODY'S.

She shouldn't even be mentioned for the Breeders Cup this year. What a Joke!

Anytime she has been hooked she has folded like a ten cent accordion.

Keep making your excuses!!!!

Zenyatta may race against nobody's in your opinions but at least SHE BEATS THEM!

[tucker6]

Ravens Pass lost five times at mile before winning two at that distance and winning Classic.


Just thought i'd stick that in for people to ponder.
Please don't insert reality into this thread. It isn't required for Zenyatta zealots, nor do they understand it. Thank you.

[PaceAdvantage]

Feel free to delete this too, if it hurts your widdle feelings----MikkiYou left the obscenities out of this post, so no need to delete it...not hard to figure out. But make sure you try and turn it into some grand conspiracy. That's always fun.

[Charlie D]

There was no speed duel.

Think one of jockeys may disagree here.

[PaceAdvantage]

What a stellar record this horse has this year.

2 wins 3 losses.

All three losses against NOBODY'S.

She shouldn't even be mentioned for the Breeders Cup this year. What a Joke!

Anytime she has been hooked she has folded like a ten cent accordion.

Keep making your excuses!!!!

Zenyatta may race against nobody's in your opinions but at least SHE BEATS THEM!This is who Jason is talking about...another guy with a low post count... :lol:

[tucker6]

What a stellar record this horse has this year.

2 wins 3 losses.

All three losses against NOBODY'S.

She shouldn't even be mentioned for the Breeders Cup this year. What a Joke!

Anytime she has been hooked she has folded like a ten cent accordion.

Keep making your excuses!!!!

Zenyatta may race against nobody's in your opinions but at least SHE BEATS THEM!... and if Rachel meets Zenyatta during BC weekend, what will you then say if Rachel wins??? Zenyatta lost to a horse worse than a nobody?? No, you will say that she lost ot the reigning HOY. Seems two-faced to me.

[DeanT]

As much as I dislike the whole "dancing on the grave" verve in Mikki's post, there is a good deal of accurate information in there, in my opinion.

[speed]

Count the number of dopey comments on here and its a bit more than a few.
Wait till Grumpy and Sneezy chime in. I know i'm Bashful but why can't we all be Happy. Okay i'm getting Sleepy now. Where's Doc with my pills.

Think i got them all :)

[Charlie D]

This thread is great imho.

Has me :D anyway.

[PaceAdvantage]

Pace went after me and I'm just pointing out that people have erased Life at Ten from this whole discission like it was a matchrace between RA and Persistently. Three hours ago the Eclipse Award would have been between Zenyatta and Life at Ten. Rachel puts her away and gets caught....it happens. People on here, whether it is emotions or lack of sound racing knowledge, are not understanding what happened today.I didn't go after you. If that's how it came off, I apologize. But I won't let someone paint the entire forum with a broad brush based on flimsy evidence.

Not that this is applicable in your case because I think you are an awesome photographer, but if I happened to see a photo you took that wasn't up to par, and I decided to tell everyone I know that you sucked as a photographer (ignoring the rest of your stellar portfolio), how fair would that be?

BTW, your point about LAT is well made. Once again, it all comes down to perspective and circumstance. Rachel seems to be cursed in that regard this year.

[tucker6]

What is missing this year, is the Ferrari acceleration that she had coming around the far turn at all distances she ran in .

That blast of speed was only topped by Secretariat in horses I have seen in similar instances over decades, and it carried her to the wire on momentum .

----Mikki
Boy are you clueless. So clueless that I doubt your lack of knowledge embarrasses you.

[tzipi]

Nothing insane about the pace whatsoever .

There was no speed duel whether the field was immediately behind or ten lengths behind .

"No speed duel". Yeah I'm going to believe you over a Johnny V who said there was a speed duel. God, people are crazy sometimes and have no clue. I guess your assesment is better than Johnny V's, who was in the race. :rolleyes:. Go read his comments on race. Bad try Nikki.

[Jasonm921]

Lets move on. At least we have a betting race for the Beldame.

[PaceAdvantage]

Boy are you clueless. So clueless that I doubt your lack of knowledge embarrasses you.I was going to delete this reply, but I don't want to disappoint Nikki/Mikki.

But really, replies like this are not what I'm looking for...and they will be removed no matter what side of the opinion you are coming from...

[mostpost]

Absurd. She raced in late July at 1 1/8 and mid-June at 1 1/8. Lack of fitness had absolutely nothing to do with this loss.
Even those races were not as impressive as they could have been. Her times were around 1:49 and 1:50. She is capable of 1:47. The fact that she ran and won at 1 1/8 does not preclude the fact that she may not have been fit enough to win at 1 1/4 against tougher competition.

[tucker6]

I was going to delete this reply, but I don't want to disappoint Nikki/Mikki.

But really, replies like this are not what I'm looking for...and they will be removed no matter what side of the opinion you are coming from...Mike,

If it breaks your rules, then delete it. Doesn't bother me in the least.

[PaceAdvantage]

This thread, started barely three hours ago, has over 3,000 views...who says Rachel isn't good for racing? :lol:

[Nikki1997]

I think Borel is all done riding this horse, how do you get caught up in a speed duel in a 5 horse race with the horse of the year, bone head ride by a jockey that does not ride that well at Saratoga.

__________
David-LV

I am not a Rachel fan and I think Calvin gave her as good a ride as anyone. Geez. The filly got beat today, o.k.? No disgrace for anyone.

Rachel doesn't want 1 1/4 miles. This is no big deal. The Woodward last year was and still is, the clearest indicator that she doesn't want this distance.

Guess what, people? The filly doesn't want to. She's fine with that. She's giving you guys what she has. Just like she did last year.

[thaskalos]

This is who Jason is talking about...another guy with a low post count... :lol:I would like to voice my opinion on this matter...but I wonder if I qualify to be called, just "another guy with a low post count".

[Jasonm921]

This just shows how bad the three year olds are this year that we waited until a day after the Travers to have a full blown argument about racing.

[JustRalph]

What a stellar record this horse has this year.

2 wins 3 losses.

All three losses against NOBODY'S.

She shouldn't even be mentioned for the Breeders Cup this year. What a Joke!

Anytime she has been hooked she has folded like a ten cent accordion.

Keep making your excuses!!!!

Zenyatta may race against nobody's in your opinions but at least SHE BEATS THEM!

Distasteful Asshole comes to mind. But I won't say it.........

[Charlie D]

People love a good battle PA, shame those in charge of Zen can't see that :)

[Saratoga_Mike]

I can't wait for the fake Beyer on this one, and yes I am going to try again, time to squelch the slow Zenyatta talk----you will never see her crawl to the wire, nor do I think she even goes slower in her first than this last quarter, not that it matters .

Feel free to delete this too, if it hurts your widdle feelings----Mikki

Really? Z's first qtr in her last three races (last race first): 25 2/5, 26 2/5, and 25 3/5.

[PaceAdvantage]

Distasteful Asshole comes to mind. But I won't say it.........Am I invisible here? :lol:

[Charlie D]

Rachel doesn't want 1 1/4 miles.

Evidence so far is, ran once at 10f, beaten 1 length.



Not sure how people work out she doesn't want 10 panels from so little data.

[tzipi]

What a stellar record this horse has this year.

2 wins 3 losses.

All three losses against NOBODY'S.

She shouldn't even be mentioned for the Breeders Cup this year. What a Joke!

Anytime she has been hooked she has folded like a ten cent accordion.

Keep making your excuses!!!!

Zenyatta may race against nobody's in your opinions but at least SHE BEATS THEM!

Another genius who would've bet against any of the all time greats after their losses or double losses. Doesn't know a thing about compeititon,fractions or horses. Anger comes from all his/her handicapping loses I'm guessing. What an ridiculous post.
By the way SEICM. Life at Ten or any other decent horse would whip Zens competition too. God, is racing today that bad that fans think these races and competition are better than what the greats faced. :rolleyes: . It's a joke today.

[mostpost]

If I recall correctly, criticism of Asmussen's training of Rachel (i.e. not running her fast enough) goes back several months. What is the philosophy behind not pushing her harder?
I really can't answer that question, but I recall a similar scenario when Secretariat was a three year old. Before the Wood Lucien Laurin worked him slowly and he finished third. Five days before the derby Secretariat worked five furlongs in under 58. The rest, as they say, is History. Similarly, coming up to the Woodword the connections were unsure where or when Secretariat was going to race. As a result he did not get that fast final workout and finished second to Prove Out.

I don't mean to imply that my criticism is original, but I really believe that the better horses require a tougher training regimen and failing to provide it compromises their chances.

[Grits]

She is better than this half baked training job shows.

So knowledgable, and one can understand that you could do better. Absolutely priceless!:lol:

[cj]

Nothing insane about the pace whatsoever .

There was no speed duel whether the field was immediately behind or ten lengths behind .

Life at Ten was 3/4 length off RA, and Borel floated her wide and rode with a loose rein--hard to even consider criticising what he did .

RA did not open up on LAT , rather LAT backed up , and Rachel ran on guts and rubber legs from the mile on--she had no closing punch, and you can spin it any way you want .

She was under the whip until Borel saw it was futile .

The last half was 52 and change, and the winner's last quarter was almost 27 seconds---truly trotting horse territory .

This does not make me a hater, but a realist--which all you claim to be .

The look on that filly's face was the same as in the Woodward--feel free to post your laugh icons, but it is no laughing matter .

I feel for the filly--this was a struggle from the mile on and she knew it .

She is better than this half baked training job shows .

She is no 10 furlong horse--which in itself is no shame--truthfully no one else in the race was either, and LAT's Delaware race she dictated the pace and was suspect here as an undertrained Pletcher horse .

What is missing this year, is the Ferrari acceleration that she had coming around the far turn at all distances she ran in .

That blast of speed was only topped by Secretariat in horses I have seen in similar instances over decades, and it carried her to the wire on momentum .

She may have won this race last year, but this year, she is suspect at any distance, because she does NOT finish fast .

I can't wait for the fake Beyer on this one, and yes I am going to try again, time to squelch the slow Zenyatta talk----you will never see her crawl to the wire, nor do I think she even goes slower in her first than this last quarter, not that it matters .

Feel free to delete this too, if it hurts your widdle feelings----Mikki'

You know, that was actually a sensible post until you made an ass of yourself (yourselves) with the last line.

[cpitt84]

It doesn't matter. She didn't show up, so we'll never know.

zenyatta is queen of among the king of sports and I have no doubt she will be 20-0.

She wins against good and bad competition. She wins against females shes supposed to win against. As much as I love Rachel and I want to see her win, she doesn't have the closing speed and stamina Zenyatta has. zenyatta is truly special and for me, this race only makes that more clear.

[DeanT]

Evidence so far is, ran once at 10f, beaten 1 length.

Not sure how people work out she doesn't want 10 panels from so little data.
Different horse, different times, I guess Charlie.

If she comes her last sixteenth in the Preakness in 7 (which would not be overly fast) she wins at 10f in 202 off stiff fractions and gets a good fig. Bam! She is a really nice mile and a quarter horse.

But if she raced in the Preakness today, she would not have gone 155 in the first place.

Different horse. But (totally an opinion) it does a great disservice to say she could not run a huge fig for a f or m at 10f, when at her best, or "she is only a 9f horse".

[Relwob Owner]

This thread is great imho.

Has me :D anyway.

Me too....here are some thoughts from how I see things...

1. The schedule and performances that made Rachel HOY last year may have resulted in her relatively sub par 2010....she just doesnt seem to be the same.

2. The pace today was solid but nowhere near "suicidal" or a real excuse for her losing...it was a slow race and a poor overall effort IMO.

3. A mile and a quarter is probably not her best distance

4. Calvin Borel will probably not be on Rachel next time out....not positive today was all his fault but I just get the feeling a change may be coming.

4. It wasnt a "bad decision" by her connections...they did what sporting people do-they test their horses, sometimes take them out of their ideal comfort zone and see what happens.

5. Amazing that the "Pro Zenyatta" folks are so zealously piling on....Rachel's race today did nothing to change the fact that Zenyatta is a horse that has one non restricted win to her credit(yes- a big one) and has to face dogs all year to save up the ability to have one big race at the end of the year.....funny how they sat out the Pacific Classic, which would have been the perfect spot for a horse as "great" as she supposedly is......she is a great mare but overall, we will never know the overall context of her greatness because of her restricted lifetime race history.

Just some opinions and in general, I think it is good to have so much to be debating at this point in the year.

[cj]

For those wondering, the winning Beyer is a 95, at least for now.

[Charlie D]

What is missing this year, is the Ferrari acceleration that she had coming around the far turn at all distances she ran in .


Internal Fr3. Same distance


Lady Secret 37.3
Fluer De whatever :) 37.6
Woodward 37.6
Haskell 37.2
Mother Goose 37.1

[tzipi]

'

That was actually a sensible post until you made an ass of yourself (yourselves) with the last line.

How was that a sensible post?? Nikki said "what pace?" and also said "there was no speel duel".

"John Velazquez, jockey aboard third-place finisher Life At Ten (No. 4): “That was a speed duel. I thought my filly would be on the lead, [Calvin Borel, jockey aboard Rachel Alexandra (No. 2)] would rate in second, but he sent her out and got in the lead and all that did was create more problems for my horse because now she was engaged. But I wasn’t going to take her back; I just left her alone. I wasn’t going to go back either, so I just held my position and left it alone. The half-mile pole came and I thought she was dead and then the three eighths pole came and she was done. Nothing left"

I'll believe Johnny V on this and the speed duel not a non jockey(Nikki) just trying to put down RA.

[Relwob Owner]

How was that a sensible post?? Nikki said "what pace?" and also said "there was no speel duel".

"John Velazquez, jockey aboard third-place finisher Life At Ten (No. 4): “That was a speed duel. I thought my filly would be on the lead, [Calvin Borel, jockey aboard Rachel Alexandra (No. 2)] would rate in second, but he sent her out and got in the lead and all that did was create more problems for my horse because now she was engaged. But I wasn’t going to take her back; I just left her alone. I wasn’t going to go back either, so I just held my position and left it alone. The half-mile pole came and I thought she was dead and then the three eighths pole came and she was done. Nothing left"

I'll believe Johnny V on this and the speed duel not a non jockey(Nikki) just trying to put down RA.


I will believe the clock....two horses going 6F in 1:12 doesnt seem like too much of a speed duel to me.....am I missing something?

[WinterTriangle]

I don't suppose you can Dean, but to win Grade 1's at 10f you are better coming from off pace as they are normally run at a decent clip and connections should have considered this imho.

Race dynamic in *this* particular race. Personally, I would *never* wager a horse at a classic distance who runs on the front, unless I think they have the stamina of Yeats or something. :)

However, had RA not been ridden this way, she would have been 3rd instead of LAT being 3rd.

sometimes, race dynamics are a bitch because you have to deal with *what is*. who will be where, and what they will do. Not sure I could see a way RA could have gotten out of this?

[cj]

How was that a sensible post?? Nikki said "what pace?" and also said "there was no speel duel".

"John Velazquez, jockey aboard third-place finisher Life At Ten (No. 4): “That was a speed duel. I thought my filly would be on the lead, [Calvin Borel, jockey aboard Rachel Alexandra (No. 2)] would rate in second, but he sent her out and got in the lead and all that did was create more problems for my horse because now she was engaged. But I wasn’t going to take her back; I just left her alone. I wasn’t going to go back either, so I just held my position and left it alone. The half-mile pole came and I thought she was dead and then the three eighths pole came and she was done. Nothing left"

I'll believe Johnny V on this and the speed duel not a non jockey(Nikki) just trying to put down RA.

I didn't say I agreed with it, but it was opinion, even if maybe a bad one.

[slewis]

Different horse, different times, I guess Charlie.

If she comes her last sixteenth in the Preakness in 7 (which would not be overly fast) she wins at 10f in 202 off stiff fractions and gets a good fig. Bam! She is a really nice mile and a quarter horse.

But if she raced in the Preakness today, she would not have gone 155 in the first place.

Different horse. But (totally an opinion) it does a great disservice to say she could not run a huge fig for a f or m at 10f, when at her best, or "she is only a 9f horse".

Go watch the replay......

If the Preakness were 11/4 miles...Mind That Bird would have blown right by..

And there's a 50-50 shot Musket Man catches her.

Nevertheless....She is a FILLY racing against Colts (or was against colts last year).

She is just not the same horse....case closed.

It happens.

[DeanT]

Go watch the replay......

If the Preakness were 11/4 miles...Mind That Bird would have blown right by..

And there's a 50-50 shot Musket Man catches her.

Nevertheless....She is a FILLY racing against Colts (or was against colts last year).

She is just not the same horse....case closed.

It happens.

I realize that, but she also went 46 and 111 from the 13 post. 47 and 112 and I am sure she finishes the race well and runs a nice number. And MTB of last May and Musket Man are not exactly chopped liver.

[senortout]

My definition of a speed duel(which quantifies it for me, at least):

At least ONE interior split faster than the one preceding it.

Personal Ensign splits:
1/4 in 23.66
1/2 in 24.07
3/4 in 24.29
mile in 25.52
1 1/4 in 26.85

so, although the illusion was there....they sped off handily from horses quite capable of setting similar fractions.....

the fact of the matter was, most in here felt they were running for a partial award, and even saving their horses for a more realistic spot, but a pesky horse and her trainer had other thoughts.

Perhaps there was more restraint on the part of every contestant today, than there should have been!

The race was poorly run, in more than one instance. Rachel should have been close up on the pace, not matter how slow that pace, and not on the lead. If she couldn't pass one horse from just off the pace, she can't be considered atop her game. There was no speed duel, each split went slower than the preceding one and it got worse, much worse, as the race progressed.....how else could the winner get by?

the winners splits were:
25.275 (beaten lengths times a factor of .17/length added to 23.66)
25.005
23.27...do the math, the very best split run by any contender during the race...
24.67....and, wait for it....
26.27.....again, a slow final fraction, even by the closer!

definitely a jockey race, and truly not a measure of their relative abilities, again, this is my opinion only.

[cj]

I will believe the clock....two horse going 6F in 1:12 doesnt seem like too much of a speed duel to me.....am I missing something?

It just really depends on the track. Very few horses are going wire to wire going much faster these days. 1:12 is pretty quick for that track at 10f, but I'd be lying if I said a 95 Beyer or so after that pace wasn't disappointing.

If she had held on to run a quicker final time I'd be more impressed. Since she didn't, I would say the effort is nothing to write home about.

[tzipi]

I will believe the clock....two horses going 6F in 1:12 doesnt seem like too much of a speed duel to me.....am I missing something?

:lol: Ok well I'll believe a jockey who was IN the race over you any day.
http://www.paulickreport.com/blog/persistently-personal/

John V: "That was a speed duel"

Funny how some people think they know more than the jockeys who were in the race.

[slewis]

This thread, started barely three hours ago, has over 3,000 views...who says Rachel isn't good for racing? :lol:


:lol: They were lined up 3 deep on BOTH sides of the fences for 200 yards to see here come into the paddock.

I had to look over the heads of the shortest girls I could find to take my usual notes of the other runners.

Good for racing is quite the understatement.

[Charlie D]

However, had RA not been ridden this way, she would have been 3rd instead of LAT being 3rd.






Sorry WT, but this is subjective opinion and not fact.


No offence meant btw,

[Relwob Owner]

It just really depends on the track. Very few horses are going wire to wire going much faster these days. 1:12 is pretty quick for that track at 10f, but I'd be lying if I said a 95 Beyer or so after that pace wasn't disappointing.

If she had held on to run a quicker final time I'd be more impressed. Since she didn't, I would say the effort is nothing to write home about.

I think 1:12 would come under the description of being "solid" and not a "speed duel"....plus, going with what Johnny V says, as the poster did, seems misguided....saying it was a "speed duel" covers JV's ass a little with the "she went and I had to as well so I had no choice" angle....

[Grits]

Go watch the replay......

If the Preakness were 11/4 miles...Mind That Bird would have blown right by..

And there's a 50-50 shot Musket Man catches her.

Nevertheless....She is a FILLY racing against Colts (or was against colts last year).

She is just not the same horse....case closed.

It happens.

Slewis, I thought about'cha when that Phipps horse came across the wire. I knew you were thrilled.

Somebody said earlier tonight, "Shug and the Phipps' horses weren't winning like they used to."

I didn't wanna tell 'em, "hell, they're doing better now than they were before--having gotten rid of calks--just ask Slewis.":lol:

[cj]

:lol: Ok well I'll believe a jockey who was IN the race over you any day.
http://www.paulickreport.com/blog/persistently-personal/

John V: "That was a speed duel"

Funny how some people think they know more than the jockeys who were in the race.

Well, actually most times bettors do know more believe it or not. You think these guys are really that smart? A few are, don't get me wrong, but most...no way.

[keithw84]

It just really depends on the track. Very few horses are going wire to wire going much faster these days. 1:12 is pretty quick for that track at 10f, but I'd be lying if I said a 95 Beyer or so after that pace wasn't disappointing.

If she had held on to run a quicker final time I'd be more impressed. Since she didn't, I would say the effort is nothing to write home about.

CJ, where do your figures have it?

[Nikki1997]

Really? Z's first qtr in her last three races (last race first): 25 2/5, 26 2/5, and 25 3/5.


You did not read my post .

I said Z's first quarters---often made fun of as slow. were not as slow as this LAST quarter, as you just showed me by putting up her first quarter times .

REALLY ...

Rachels' first quarter of this race is slower however, than most of Z's finishing quarters .

You may did those up if you
wish .

Mikki

[tzipi]

Well, actually most times bettors do know more believe it or not. You think these guys are really that smart? A few are, don't get me wrong, but most...no way.

Well I was just telling Relwob that I'll believe Johnny V(who was in the race) and his assesment of a speed duel over his assesment.

[cj]

CJ, where do your figures have it?

I haven't done it yet, and once again thanks to NYRA it is the lone route on the card so it is tough. Mid 90s seems about right given the pace.

[Relwob Owner]

:lol: Ok well I'll believe a jockey who was IN the race over you any day.
http://www.paulickreport.com/blog/persistently-personal/

John V: "That was a speed duel"

Funny how some people think they know more than the jockeys who were in the race.


Who has a motivation to be biased-me or the jock who got beat???? I own horses, respect jockeys tremendously but if you believe everything they say and think their statements dont have their own agendas, you qualify as bonafied sucker.....

The way you attack in your posts indicates you think you know more than most.....so, I ask you-is running 1:12 a "speed duel"?

[Relwob Owner]

Well, actually most times bettors do know more believe it or not. You think these guys are really that smart? A few are, don't get me wrong, but most...no way.


Ditto that

[tzipi]

Who has a motivation to be biased-me or the jock who got beat???? I own horse, respect jockeys tremendously but if you believe everything they say, you qualify as bonafied sucker.....

The way you attack in your posts indicates you think you know more than most.....so, I ask you-is running 1:12 a "speed duel"?

OK fine you're right Relwob a 23 and change and a 47 and change going out by 10 lengths in a 1 1/4 race is not a speed duel. You're right and John Velazquez is wrong. Trust me I'm not the sucker. I know not to say that was normal or cruising fractions.
Did you read the repot? The other jocks were telling eachother that they were good. Meaning they could come closing into them going like that. Yup, all the jocks were wrong and youre right. :rolleyes:

[cj]

Well I was just telling Relwob that I'll believe Johnny V(who was in the race) and his assesment of a speed duel over his assesment.

Fair enough, and I'm just telling you most times jockeys don't really have much idea. He probably does know his horse was in duel, especially considering where she finished. I think in this case the answer lies somewhere between the two.

[Nikki1997]

'

You know, that was actually a sensible post until you made an ass of yourself (yourselves) with the last line.
Thank you, I believe it was heartfelt as well .

As to the second statement---nothing new around here--move on .

[Mineshaft]

Go watch the replay......

If the Preakness were 11/4 miles...Mind That Bird would have blown right by..

And there's a 50-50 shot Musket Man catches her.

Nevertheless....She is a FILLY racing against Colts (or was against colts last year).

She is just not the same horse....case closed.

It happens.





Exactly shes not the same horse at all. Doesnt she have an ankle problem? I seem to recall there was a rumor going around about an ankle. True or not?

[thaskalos]

How was that a sensible post?? Nikki said "what pace?" and also said "there was no speel duel".

"John Velazquez, jockey aboard third-place finisher Life At Ten (No. 4): “That was a speed duel. I thought my filly would be on the lead, [Calvin Borel, jockey aboard Rachel Alexandra (No. 2)] would rate in second, but he sent her out and got in the lead and all that did was create more problems for my horse because now she was engaged. But I wasn’t going to take her back; I just left her alone. I wasn’t going to go back either, so I just held my position and left it alone. The half-mile pole came and I thought she was dead and then the three eighths pole came and she was done. Nothing left"

I'll believe Johnny V on this and the speed duel not a non jockey(Nikki) just trying to put down RA.Tzipi...is it that difficult to admit that Rachel ran a subpar race, and got beat?

You yourself have stated, that some of the best horses in the history of this sport, have inexplicably been defeated...what's with these pace and speed duel excuses now?

Is this defeat really as "awful", as the title of this thread would indicate?

It is obvious that the horse, for whatever reason, didn't fire her best shot today. That's horse racing.

Lame excuses are not beffiting for a horse of this caliber...

[tzipi]

Fair enough, and I'm just telling you most times jockeys don't really have much idea. He probably does know his horse was in dual, especially considering where she finished. I think in this case the answer lies somewhere between the two.

Well according to all the jocks comments,I think they had a good idea. Johnny V said "speed duel" and Garcia and Valdivia were telling eachother in the back "they are good,they are good" They knew what was happening. Not going to argue that or them when every jock in the race was on the same page in terms of the race.

[tzipi]

Tzpi...is it that difficult to admit that Rachel ran a subpar race, and got beat?

You yourself have stated, that some of the best horses in the history of this sport, have inexplicably been defeated...what's with these pace and speed duel excuses now?

Is this defeat really as "awful", as the title of this thread would indicate?

It is obvious that the horse, for whatever reason, didn't fire her best shot today. That's horse racing.

Lame excuses are not beffiting for a horse of this caliber...

Once again, just going by all the jock comments who actually rode in the race. Read the report and argue with them. I didn't make up all their comments. Just posting them.

[slewis]

I haven't done it yet, and once again thanks to NYRA it is the lone route on the card so it is tough. Mid 90s seems about right given the pace.

I posted that I previously had this discussion with Andrew Byrnes the NYRA stakes man and mentioned it to PJ Campo and they agreed with me.

Again, another example of how racing management refuses to give the fans what they want.

Even dopey Mike Lakow used to card another 11/2 mile race on Belmont stakes day.

PJ and Byrnes do a good job....but they drop the ball in this respect.

We could do with one less 51/2 fur turf sprint and at least one 11/8 miler.

[point given]

My night is complete as I've finally caught up to the end of this thread !:lol:
Its been entertaining to say the least. Carry on ,,,,.....

[cj]

I posted that I previously had this discussion with Andrew Byrnes the NYRA stakes man and mentioned it to PJ Campo and they agreed with me.

Again, another example of how racing management refuses to give the fans what they want.

Even dopey Mike Lakow used to card another 11/2 mile race on Belmont stakes day.

PJ and Byrnes do a good job....but they drop the ball in this respect.

We could do with one less 51/2 fur turf sprint and at least one 11/8 miler.

It is ridiculous. Back to back days, 25 races, and the only dirt routes they can card are the two big stakes? There is no excuse for this. I usually defend NYRA, but this is weak, very weak.

I understand Campo has a very tough job, but his positioning of races has been poor these past few weeks. Anybody catch those thrilling races surrounding the Alabama?

[toetoe]

She ran a 1 1/4 in 23 and change and 47 and change in a speed duel and put away Life at Ten



Unless the track was a dozen lengths slow today, Life at Ten looks done too. Awful looking race.

In fact, all three big races this weekend were underwhelming. The Travers showed me that I was crackpipedreaming to think the sophomores (possible exception: Lookin at Lucky) could even warm up Blame, Quality Road and Zenyatta. Then Richard's Kid, the new "Worst Millionaire Racehorse Enamored of Wax," won the Pacific Classic over a no-hoper, while Hold Me Back, Awesome Gem and the rest did less than nothing. Does this bottoming-out happen every summer nowadays ? Maybe I just never noticed it.

[Relwob Owner]

OK fine you're right Relwob a 23 and change and a 47 and change going out by 10 lengths in a 1 1/4 race is not a speed duel. You're right and John Velazquez is wrong. Trust me I'm not the sucker. I know not to say that was normal or cruising fractions.
Did you read the repot? The other jocks were telling eachother that they were good. Meaning they could come closing into them going like that. Yup, all the jocks were wrong and youre right. :rolleyes:

Is going 1:12 for 6 Furlongs a speed duel? You still havent answered....first quarter was quick but getting to the half and 6 Furlongs didnt seem too bad.

Interesting-the jocks in the back justified their position and the jocks in the front justified theirs and you use their statements to back up your opinion....if Jockeys say it, it must be true, correct? Amazing.....

Again, is 6 Furlongs a speed duel to you? Overall, a solid pace but not a speed duel-the Woodward last year? Now, that was a speed duel type of pace IMO

[cj]

Is going 1:12 for 6 Furlongs a speed duel? You still havent answered....first quarter was quick but getting to the half and 6 Furlongs didnt seem too bad.

Interesting-the jocks in the back justified their position and the jocks in the front justified theirs and you use their statements to back up your opinion....if Jockeys say it, it must be true, correct? Amazing.....

Again, is 6 Furlongs a speed duel to you? Overall, a solid pace but not a speed duel-the Woodward last year? Now, that was a speed duel type of pace IMO

There was also some pushing and stuff on the first turn, causing them to lose a lot of ground, so 1:12 doesn't tell the whole story. Like I said, I think the truth is somewhere in between. There was a duel, but it doesn't explain the poor final time totally.

[DeanT]

Why dont you post what Pletcher said about the 47.3 Tzipi?

I am not much for this stuff. It discredits a marvelous horse. She wins by daylight if this is last year, and there is no talk of a "speed duel".

Rachel of today is a good horse, but we should never forget that she was much more than "good" last year. 30 years from now I will remember her 3YO season, and hopefully so will everyone else. It was special and she's special.

That's it from me.

Oh, and I hope that when/if Z loses the BC this year fair and square we dont read excuses. The same respect should be given to her career, as people should give Rach. We're lucky to be around when these two mares were at their best and like Crist wrote today - they are two sure fire first ballot hall of fame horses.

[depalma113]

The last half was 52 and change, and the winner's last quarter was almost 27 seconds---truly trotting horse territory .

yes I am going to try again, time to squelch the slow Zenyatta talk----you will never see her crawl to the wire, nor do I think she even goes slower in her first than this last quarter, not that it matters .

Feel free to delete this too, if it hurts your widdle feelings----Mikki

You're right, it doesn't matter, but for the record.

Final quarter of the winner today :26.15

Zenyatta's first quarter in her only mile and a quarter race :27.06

[Relwob Owner]

There was also some pushing and stuff on the first turn, causing them to lose a lot of ground, so 1:12 doesn't tell the whole story. Like I said, I think the truth is somewhere in between. There was a duel, but it doesn't explain the poor final time totally.

A typically logical post from you CJ, seeing an answer somewhere in the middle and I hear ya here a bit. There may have been a "duel" but with those fractions, I dont see it as an excuse.I also know that regardless of times, there is something to be said for having a horse right on your outside and going a bit wide and jostling could have had a small effect. Needless to say, though, as you say I dont think you can blame the result on the early pace.

[eastie]

Pace, these people half of em are clueless morons who have no idea about half of the way racing works...Anyone with half a brain would know that Rachel ran pretty darn good today considering she literally buried Life at Ten and ran her into the ground, and just got nipped by a horse who literally had the trip of trips today while Rachel Alexandra did all the dirty work and simply put these people's blind faith towards Zenyatta who will eventually get drowned in November in the Classic clouds all judgement towards the reigning Horse of the Year.


This filly couldn't hold off Persistantly as she staggered home in 27 and you think she would ever hold off Zenyatta ? Dream On.

[tzipi]

Is going 1:12 for 6 Furlongs a speed duel? You still havent answered....first quarter was quick but getting to the half and 6 Furlongs didnt seem too bad.

Interesting-the jocks in the back justified their position and the jocks in the front justified theirs and you use their statements to back up your opinion....if Jockeys say it, it must be true, correct? Amazing.....

Again, is 6 Furlongs a speed duel to you? Overall, a solid pace but not a speed duel-the Woodward last year? Now, that was a speed duel type of pace IMO

When did the race start for you? Just at the 6F marker?? So if a horse runs 1 1/4 out in 22 and 44.2 but hits 6F in 1:13....that's slow or normal or normal according to you? :eek: There's a whole race Relwob. The 1 1/4 P.E. didnt just start at the 6F marker. They had to travel there. Geez. I said they started off the 1 1/4 race with 23 and change and 47 and change going out by 10 but you keep starting with 1:12?
Johnny V said he wanted the lead but didn't get it which messed him up a bit. The other jocks basically said they were licking their chops. Whatever, ok 23. and 47,etc are slow for a 1 1/4. Enjoy your night Rel.

[pandy]

Yes, Saturday the track was speed favoring, maybe they tried to soup it up for the Travers, but most of the meet the track has been favoring sustained types, as has Monmouth, which has had a lot of deal rail days.

[Wickel]

It doesn't matter. She didn't show up, so we'll never know.

Did Rachel show up in California? Why doesn't Jackson put the debate to rest and ship RA to Hollypark for a showdown with Zenyatta? The Santa Anita rubber has been a disaster, the Del Mar synthetic is freaky, but many trainers say Hollywood's surface is the closest surface to dirt among all synthetics. Zenyatta will make her final BC prep at Hollywood--a perfect race for Rachel to redeem herself. So why not take the initiative and ship West? No more excuses about pace, bad rides (and I was one of these) and racing surfaces. I agree that it's a shame Zenyatta won't be shipping in for the Beldame or some other race in the East, but neither will RA ship westward. A travesty. RA will go in the Filly and Mare and Z in the Classic.

[Tom]

"We want to evaluate who we are and who she is and where she’s at. We’re just worried about her well-being,” he said somewhat cryptically.

Curious thing to say. They have no clue who anyone is????
Wait for the other show to drop. Hope not.


As far as Toga cards this year, yes, the absolute WORST meeting I ever saw. The lily has been gilded. Less days - many less is in order. Does NYRA have anything that can run father than 7 furlongs anymore?

[WinterTriangle]

You're kidding right? I actually used that logic with her in the BC two years ago and left there empty handed.

Sounds like your handicapping effort was sorely incorrect and/or missing on other levels. ( Esp. if that was all you used. ) It was 2nd race in her whole life, and the winning trifecta contained 3 horses who were all Dual Qualifiers. :D (if I remember that correctly).


In big races, I use a combined method of pedigree analysis, traditional PPs and workout data, and watch replays. I review for *soft* data like trainer intent, history of connections/race, barn, trainer/jock %. *Every* detail is important and can be contributory to the picture. I don't have time to do all this on smaller races.

If my method is somehow deserving of your ridicule then all I can say is that any time you'd like to discuss a race in detail (BEFOREHAND)....just pm me. I love sharing insights, and ripping apart a race with other handicappers. I probably can't help anybody but sometimes people see stuff I don't see, and vice versa. :)

[Relwob Owner]

When did the race start for you? Just at the 6F marker?? So if a horse runs 1 1/4 out in 22 and 44.2 but hits 6F in 1:13....that's slow or normal or normal according to you? :eek: There's a whole race Relwob. The 1 1/4 P.E. didnt just start at the 6F marker. They had to travel there. Geez. I said they started off the 1 1/4 race with 23 and change and 47 and change going out by 10 but you keep starting with 1:12?
Johnny V said he wanted the lead but didn't get it which messed him up a bit. The other jocks basically said they were licking their chops. Whatever, ok 23. and 47,etc are slow for a 1 1/4. Enjoy your night Rel.


Yes, there is a whole race-you are correct...seems to me that according to the fractions they went relatively quickly thorugh the first quarter, moderate to the half, took a relative breather to the 6F and then to the mile and incredibly slow late...I am no pace expert but know a decent amount and this is how I see it....I dont see that there was a "duel" that can explain her poor finish but instead a solid pace.......plus, I dont think there is any valid excuse for a horse like RA to lose to a horse like she lost to today....

Who said 23 abd 47 were slow for a mile and a quarter? Not me so you are making stuff up....

Funny how Pletcher described the fractions as "comfortable" for his horse.....what would you say to that?

I am amused at how much faithyou put in what jockeys say....like I said, you had a winning jock say he liked his position and the losing jock blaming the fact that he got into a duel.....with that kind of naiveness, I am surprised you arent a Zenyatta fan:)

I know you are a big Rachel fan and that is probably why your tone is so bitter, but life goes on.......both Zenyatta and Rachel fans seem to lose sight of logic when discussing their horses and you dont seem to be any different....

[slewis]

Curious thing to say. They have no clue who anyone is????
Wait for the other show to drop. Hope not.


As far as Toga cards this year, yes, the absolute WORST meeting I ever saw. The lily has been gilded. Less days - many less is in order. Does NYRA have anything that can run father than 7 furlongs anymore?

Worst might be a bit of a stretch. The two year old racing has been good except that Todd has 90% of them.

This is another example of how NYRA could give a shit about horseplayers.
They change the uncoupled entry rule in a feeble attempt to get more starters but you have the top trainers getting 90% of the two yr olds so they can pick and choose and manipulate the way they see fit.

The CORRECT way to get more starters and betting interests to the gate is to LIMIT the number of stalls each of the top trainers get.

Owners would be forced to spread more of the stock around, giving other trainers a chance to succeed.
But the "rich boy club" would NEVER go for that.

I just ran a quick query in my database on all 1 1/8th mile races this year vs last.

2009: 409 total of which 129 were turf.

2010: 163 total of which 70 were turf.

You're right, again, TOM... excluding political discussions, of course.:lol:

[sandpit]

Anyone notice Rachel was even with the winner during the pull up? I guess that's because Garcia was pumping his fist after the wire while Calvin was still driving and whipping, prepping Rachel for the 12f BC Turf? :lol:

But seriously, I found that a little odd...Rachel is supposed to be dead-tired, is she not? How does she get back up to the winner like that in only a few strides?

Winning Colors did the exact same thing in the BCD when Personal Ensign nipped her.

[Sericm]

... and if Rachel meets Zenyatta during BC weekend, what will you then say if Rachel wins??? Zenyatta lost to a horse worse than a nobody?? No, you will say that she lost ot the reigning HOY. Seems two-faced to me.

I really wouldn't have anything to say because that would never happen. If Zenyatta ran against Rachel 100 times she would beat her 100 times.:jump:

[Audioslavery]

I really wouldn't have anything to say because that would never happen. If Zenyatta ran against Rachel 100 times she would beat her 100 times.:jump:

Something would have to go terribly wrong, Zenyatta has won at 1 1/8th and galloped out another 1/8 faster than Rachel finished today.

[Sericm]

Distasteful Asshole comes to mind. But I won't say it.........

Don't appreciate the comment DUDE!

[Robert Fischer]

It wasn't a question for just Rachel.

So if you have a race where 10F (at a G1 level) is a question for several horses in the race (either due to pedigree, fitness, etc.) then the task is to find WHO it's going to be the least problem for.

Looking at my stats, RA was one of 3 horses who had that ability and one of those wasn't fit. I couldn't very well rate her against a stamina stayer like Yeats. He wasn't in the race. :)

What horse did you think could get 10F, on Saratoga dirt, with ease?

The thing about the parimutuel system is that an RA doesn't have to be on an island to provide value; she's 1/2.

[JustRalph]

Don't appreciate the comment DUDE!

I calls em as I see them

You have an obvious agenda. Carry on..........

[atlasaxis]

Not for me. But I understand your POV. IMO:

I watched Rachel last year and became a huge fan, not because she won races, we see that each year in the 3YO division. I loved watching her because she was a superstar who spit out her competition like she was grazing on grass in the morning.

Superstars, of which we have had two to watch the last two seasons, are what I follow racing for. I could not care less about 99% of the races - I am a bettor and I play many races a day. But for horses like Zenyatta and Rachel I stop, turn off the ADW, and watch greatness.

Great horses are fantastic to watch. There is something about them, and the other horses know it too, in my opinion. Last year in the Woodward, a horse like Rachel took it to the other speed horses so much so that one of them was so broken, he was tweaked and gave up. In this years Vanity, St Trinians was demolished. She tried so hard to beat the big mare that she went lame. She could not even get up to answer the bell for her next scheduled start.

That's what superstars in the equine world do - crush other horses spirit so damn bad it affects them. And we see very, very few who can do that.

I dont want to watch Rachel race another year where she needs soft fractions to win, or for someone not to enter against her, or a great ride to get up. I dont want to see any superstar race, who is not his or her old self. Horses like Rachel and Z are once in a generation horses, imo, its their dominance and pure talent at their best that I want to watch.

Well said Dean, thank you!

[OntheRail]

I calls em as I see them

You have an obvious agenda. Carry on..........
You have 20-20 sight ... :lol:

[cpitt84]

Do you think calvin made the right decision to have rachel at the lead the entire time? Would it have been wise to let her swing back 4 lengths from the pace runner?

Anyone think Calvin hit rachel too much (about 20x)?

I've noticed that when rachel loses, the winner is to her right and the third place finisher is usually 10 lengths back.

Just interesting how this is becoming a pattern.