What will be DMR's cut of Betfair's trading on the Pacific Classic today?

[Foolish Pleasure]

THe correct answer is less than $100.
and probably a lot less than $100.
probably less than $50.


For every $1000 matched Betfair pays fifty cents to the tracks.

So even if they multiplied the total matched by 10.

DMR or any other track is getting less than $500 here.
Of course while Betfair itself pockets ten times that much not including stealth fees.


Certainly sounds reasonable to me.

[Charlie D]

Here you go educate yourself
http://www.hblb.org.uk/

[Stillriledup]

Betfair is not legal in the USA. As a USA resident you can't bet matchups at betfair on a del mar race. Until America can legalize matchup wagering, DMR is going to continue to get peanuts for Betfair matchups.

[Foolish Pleasure]

They matched $100K on the Travers,
Betfair makes between $500 to $750-

SAR's cut between $50 and $75.



Sure Burn in order for us to have a thriving sport that is the sort of thing needed along with a hike in takeout on the tote.




I am not really sure he actually believes lower takeout is better either.

Afterall Betfair has done nothing but raise the takeout on the exchange since they opened.

[Foolish Pleasure]

Match ups?


This is exchange handle in the win and place markets.


They pay the tracks between fifty and seventy five cents for every thousand dollars matched depending on their actual hold.


or virtual nothing.



This is not hard.

If they match $1million dollars, they make between $5000 and $7500 and pay the tracks $500-$750,

even if it was 100% fully legal in the US, they not matching $1million a race.

not hard to understand.

[Charlie D]

Match ups?


This is exchange handle in the win and place markets.


They pay the tracks between fifty and seventy five cents for every thousand dollars matched depending on their actual hold.


or virtual nothing.

Got a link to the above info please.

[Foolish Pleasure]

Your own link.

Since its inception,
the percentage has stayed rock steady at
10% of gross profits.


Betfair gross profits are between 1/2% and 3/4% of what is matched-
can find that for yourself in Betfair financial reports which are available online to anyone at least for the years they decided to make public.


Hmm what does that equal?

Let's see $1mill matched*1/2%-3/4%=$5000-$7500

10% of $5000-$7500 equals $500-$750 or

fifty to seventy five cents per dollar matched to the tracks.

or virtual nothing.


DMR and SPA will get less than $100 for their million dollar races today and even if legal in the US, what could they expect?

$1000 maximum.

[Stillriledup]

Your own link.

Since its inception,
the percentage has stayed rock steady at
10% of gross profits.


Betfair gross profits are between 1/2% and 3/4% of what is matched-
can find that for yourself in their financial reports.



Hmm what does that equal?

Let's see $1mill matched*1/2%-3/4%=$5000-$7500

10% of $5000-$7500 equals $500-$750 or

fifty to seventy five cents per dollar matched to the tracks.

or virtual nothing.

Is there really any proof that even one dollar of traditional handle gets lost to matchup betting?

[Foolish Pleasure]

How about the entire country of France?

Where takeout starts at 27% or something, Betfair came in, wiped out the tote revenue and was kicked out? Is that evidence enough?


How about South Africa? Where same virtual identical thing took place or is currently taking place?




Why doesn't Betfair offer Hong Kong-why not ask them?


Australia? No sorry, saw an article today abt the huge revenue hole thanks to lost tote business in the south.


Is there anywhere besides the UK that had tote handle go up?
likewise there is nowhere else that had fixed odds bookies either.
with an entire population used to betting fixed odds.

lots and lots of money was spent trying to get US sportsbettors to bet on sports exchanges prior to the latest internet crackdown?

and guess what? They didn't.




which all doesn't matter because the bottomline here is they contribute virtual nothing and take 10times that amount away.

[Foolish Pleasure]

For what it is worth,

Match up betting used in horse racing generally means one horse vs another.

Like some sportsbooks offer on the big races,
this horse -110 vs that horse -110.

[Charlie D]

Betfair pay what is asked by the Levy Board. Just like everyone else in UK.

10% , again 10%



They will also probably pay what US horsemem ask them also, if they think it is a fair deal, just like they do now via TVG/Betfair. Otherwise, NO exchange betting


Got IT????

[Foolish Pleasure]

Should try actually reading your own links for a change.

Worryingly, racing continues to
lose its market share of betting. When I
became Chairman, it stood at over 60%,
now it’s down nearer 40%.


SO basically since the invention of betfair, racing has dropped 20% of it's gambling market share in the UK.

Is that what is being portrayed here? Or am I constantly reading how exchange betting and Betfair saved UK horse racing?


Betfair is also the smallest contributor in that entire report,
of anyone taking bets on UK racing in the UK nobody pays less.


Try reading your own material for a change.

Levy Yield – 10 year record
2008-2009 £91.6m
2007-2008 £115.3m
2006-2007 £99.2m
2005-2006 £99.3m
2004-2005 £105.6m
2003-2004 £110.7m
2002-2003 £79.9m
2001-2002 £72.9m
2000-2001 £60.3m
1999-2000 £59.4m



What happened in 2005 that the growth suddenly stopped?


Here I will help, they were losing market share to everything else anyone could possibly bet on.


and for what it is worth, US racing needs billions to operate,
not tens of millions.

and UK racing is hardly in great shape right now as I read about the same shit there as here regarding less dates, handle down significantly et al.

[beertapper]

there are tracks that have asked betfair to not allow wagers on their exchange (eg never seen hong kong or japan)

i'm assuming del mar is ok with it?

[Charlie D]

SO basically since the invention of betfair, racing has dropped 20% of it's gambling market share in the UK.



Racings losing market share is now Betfairs fault..You could not make this stuff up.



Racing has competition bud for OUR pound

Do you want me to list some of the competition.

Football, Rugby, NFL, Baseball, Poker, Greyhounds, Slot machines, Cartoon (Virtual) racing betting and so on and so on and so on


The bookies in UK play a large part in the fall in revenue as it is they who promote the Slot machines in thier betting shops for idiots and addicts, they who have WALLS of Cartoon racing, Footie stuff, Poker, Bingo sites etc etc

They promote this stuff ALL the time because THEY don't have to pay 10% to anyone. Thus they make more profit

Bookies are the LEECHES on UK racing. It is they who negoiated only 10% and NOT Betfair.

These great people are now moving OFF SHORE so they don't have to PAY.

GOT IT????

[Seabiscuit@AR]

Foolish Pleasure

Australia has tote betting and fixed odds betting. Tote turnover has always been reasonably good in Australia

Betfair got its Australian licence back in 2006

http://www.theage.com.au/news/Business/Betfair-wins-first-Australian-licence/2006/01/16/1137259981838.html

In the 2004-05 season tote turnover on Australian racing was 8.8 billion
In the 2005-06 season tote turnover on Australian racing was 8.8 billion
In the 2008-09 season tote turnover on Australian racing was 9.8 billion

In the 2004-05 season total turnover both tote and fixed odds was 11.7 billion
In the 2005-06 season total turnover both tote and fixed odds was 11.7 billion
In the 2008-09 season total turnover both tote and fixed odds was 14.4 billion

So most of the betting growth in Australian racing in the last few years has been with fixed odds betting. At the same time tote turnover is not dropping like a stone as people were predicting before Betfair started up in Australia. In fact betting on horses has been very healthy since Betfair started up

If we compared USA tote figures from 2005 or 2006 to the present what would be the drop? 20%? 30%?

[Charlie D]

there are tracks that have asked betfair to not allow wagers on their exchange (eg never seen hong kong or japan)

i'm assuming del mar is ok with it?


Not so long ago Socal disappeared from Betfair markets, people emailed Betfair asking what had happened.They were told WE (Betfair) are in negotiations and hopeful Socal markets will be back later.

A few months later they were back and have been there ever since.


Make of that info what you will.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Not so long ago Socal disappeared from Betfair markets, people emailed Betfair asking what had happened.They were told WE (Betfair) are in negotiations and hopeful Socal markets will be back later.

A few months later they were back and have been there ever since.


Make of that info what you will.

Charlie,

Do you think Betfair has been good or bad for racing in the UK?

[Foolish Pleasure]

I didn't see the final matched but DMR's cut is less than $50 and probably less than $40.


and thanks to the guy for pointing out that Australia like the UK already had fixed odds bookmakers. The exchange had an active customer base already in waiting.

otherwise excellent work painting out the rosiest picture possible.


The US economy rose geometrically and then collapsed, so did US handle.

Did the Australian economy do the same? Nah of course not and neither did the handle rise geometrically and collapse either.

and for the record I don't really consider not even keeping pace with inflation a sign of success. Which would probably be why I see news headlines complaining abt holes in their revenue.

[Charlie D]

The contribute millions to levy, they are also the second largest sponsor, they also brought horse racing betting into 21st century. The corrupt that have been caught have been caiught because of Betfair transparency, if that did not exist they would still be in racing.


All good is it not???

[Saratoga_Mike]

The contribute millions to levy, they are also the second largest sponsor, they also brought horse racing betting into 21st century. The corrupt that have been caught have been caiught because of Betfair transparency, if that did not exist they would still be in racing.


All good is it not???

More specifically, do you think the Betfair economic model is fair to race track operators? If Foolish Pleasure's numbers are correct, which you don't seem to be disputing, it doesn't seems like Betfair is paying enough to the tracks putting on the show, not unlike the ADW in the US, imo.

FP - thanks for explaining the Betfair economics to the track - always wondered.

[Foolish Pleasure]

THe are the smallest contributors of all contributors.


The corrupt that have been caught have been caiught because of Betfair transparency, if that did not exist they would still be in racing.



Right because before when people bet with bookies they robbed and stole even more.


Oddly bookie is not a monkey and knows better than to get robbed and stolen from,

but according to you people they are monkeys. Because before the exchange somehow all of this corruption was going unnoticed.





Where do all gambling criminals gamble?

Bookies and casinos ban them-

Exchanges don't give a shit, they are nameless and faceless.

but keep posting the earth is flat.

[Foolish Pleasure]

not unlike the ADW in the US, imo.


This is so 100% true.

The ADWS should be getting 1% maximum.
THey are processing transactions for the most part and that usually costs between 1/2% and 1% per transaction-even Betfair's typical gross profit is only 1/2% to 3/4%.

and yet here somehow the ADWS are getting 5-10times that.

and of course once interest rates rise they earn on the deposits too.

[Saratoga_Mike]

This is so 100% true.

The ADWS should be getting 1% maximum.
THey are processing transactions for the most part and that usually costs between 1/2% and 1% per transaction

and yet here somehow they getting 5-10times that.

and of course once interest rates rise they earn on the deposits too.

Now the ADW operators will claim they don't generate very attractive margins. That argument is bogus. If you compare the capital intensity of an AWD to a racetrack, the ADW business model is far superior, telling me the ADW is getting too big of a cut.

[Foolish Pleasure]

For a while I was fooled by them into thinking they brought in new business,

I think now we can see the ADWS largely did nothing but cannabalize the already existing business. Maybe the larger ones like Youbet brought in some new business over the years but nothing worth the millions they have taken out.

and like you posted it is no brainer to the point that the last time I called one of them-the guy I spoke with on the phone was a MD racing executive who left because he saw the future was with the ADWS.

[Saratoga_Mike]

FOr a while I was fooled by them into thinking they brought in new business,

I think now we can see the ADWS largely did nothing but cannabalize the already existing business. Maybe the larger ones like Youbet brought in some new business over the years but nothing worth the millions they have taken out.

They'll argue if it weren't for the rebates they offer, the business would have gone away entirely.

[Charlie D]

Exchanges don't give a shit, they are nameless and faceless.



Another clueless comment and with that i'm done trying to educate you.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Another clueless comment and with that i'm done trying to educate you.

I have seen a number of news articles about Betfair proactively reporting suspicious betting activity, so I think FP may have overstated his case on this front.

[Foolish Pleasure]

THere are individuals who if they called any bookie who would take a $1000bet-they would be laughed off the phone because they are known criminals.

Where do they bet?

The exchanges and totes where no one knows you name.



and I know you didn't follow the Davedenko tennis fixing closely,
because when BF presented their case in court-

it was obvious they didn't even understand their own product.

[Saratoga_Mike]

YOU have no idea.


THere are individuals who if they called any bookie who would take a $1000bet-they would be laughed off the phone because they are known criminals.

Where do they bet?

The exchanges and totes where no one knows you name.



and I know you didn't follow the Davedenko tennis fixing closely,
because when BF presented their case in court-

it was obvious they didn't even understand their own product.

I didn't, but you obviously did. What happened - it seems relevant to the topic at hand?

[Foolish Pleasure]

They went in court and cited movement in the odds as evidence of a fix,

meanwhile the odds they cited were the ones being offered as the match was being played. So while the guy was winning the odds kept getting lower on him and they cited that as evidence.


meanwhile any tennis match as one guy is winning the odds will keep getting lower on him-he gets closer to winning the odds should get lower.


it was ridiculous.

[Charlie D]

More specifically, do you think the Betfair economic model is fair to race track operators?



No Mike, but, they PAY what is asked by the Levy Board who set those terms, just like we pay what is asked via Take Out terms.

Should we stump up more of our money than asked???

[Foolish Pleasure]

In the end they were right and it was obvious to anyone watching at the time they were right because eventually the odds started moving opposite of what they should have,

as guy was winning all of a sudden other guy started taking huge sums,
it made no sense.


But when they went to court to prove it they offered the first line movement listed above as evidence and that was the line movement that made sense with what was actually taking place in the match.

It showed they had no idea, and I am sure the only way they got alerted to it was a bettor was watching the match and wondering why the hell is the losing player taking all the money in the end.

I think the winning guy eventually walked off and quit mid stream losing by forfeit so it was as if on one of the breaks he signalled to someone I am tossing in the towel go sell me on the exchange- but I am a little hazy on recalling it exactly.

[Foolish Pleasure]

Corruption in tennis is up about 10,000% since Betfair was invented.
BF routinely trades millions on tennis matches,

clearly opens the door for corruption that never existed.


before betfair the idea of tanking a tennis match and betting the other side for any real money was ludicrous.

[Saratoga_Mike]

No Mike, but, they PAY what is asked by the Levy Board who set those terms, just like we pay what is asked via Take Out terms.

Should we stump up more of our money than asked???

Who controls the Levy Board?

[Charlie D]

People have led a sheltered life if they think there were no corrupt betting activities before Betting exchanges.

[Charlie D]

Who controls the Levy Board?


http://www.hblb.org.uk/document.php?id=35


The HBLB is a UK statutory body that was established by the Betting Levy Act 1961. It operates in accordance with the provisions of the Betting, Gaming and Lotteries Act 1963 (as amended). It is a non-departmental public body, and its sponsoring Government department is the Department for Culture, Media and Sport.

[Saratoga_Mike]

"The HBLB is a UK statutory body that was established by the Betting Levy Act 1961. It operates in accordance with the provisions of the Betting, Gaming and Lotteries Act 1963 (as amended). It is a non-departmental public body, and its sponsoring Government department is the Department for Culture, Media and Sport. "

Well then the absurdly low cut (my opinion of course) that Betfair pays the tracks was determined by a governmental body, not by a negotiation between Betfair and each track.

[Charlie D]

"The HBLB is a UK statutory body that was established by the Betting Levy Act 1961. It operates in accordance with the provisions of the Betting, Gaming and Lotteries Act 1963 (as amended). It is a non-departmental public body, and its sponsoring Government department is the Department for Culture, Media and Sport. "

Well then the absurdly low cut (my opinion of course) that Betfair pays the tracks was determined by a governmental body, not by a negotiation between Betfair and each track.


Correct. Betfair just pay the going rate like the UK bookmakers do. As i stated elsewhere, there were some smartl people and clueless people sat at a table negotiating terms - the smart were the books in 60's


Joe Coral, Ladbrokes, William Hill etc have become maissive businesses thanks to that favourable deal they struck.

[DeanT]

Foolish Pleasure

Australia has tote betting and fixed odds betting. Tote turnover has always been reasonably good in Australia

Betfair got its Australian licence back in 2006

http://www.theage.com.au/news/Business/Betfair-wins-first-Australian-licence/2006/01/16/1137259981838.html

In the 2004-05 season tote turnover on Australian racing was 8.8 billion
In the 2005-06 season tote turnover on Australian racing was 8.8 billion
In the 2008-09 season tote turnover on Australian racing was 9.8 billion

In the 2004-05 season total turnover both tote and fixed odds was 11.7 billion
In the 2005-06 season total turnover both tote and fixed odds was 11.7 billion
In the 2008-09 season total turnover both tote and fixed odds was 14.4 billion

So most of the betting growth in Australian racing in the last few years has been with fixed odds betting. At the same time tote turnover is not dropping like a stone as people were predicting before Betfair started up in Australia. In fact betting on horses has been very healthy since Betfair started up

If we compared USA tote figures from 2005 or 2006 to the present what would be the drop? 20%? 30%?

Shhhhhhh. Just sit back and watch. It's much more fun :)

[Saratoga_Mike]

Correct. Betfair just pay the going rate like the UK bookmakers do. As i stated elsewhere, there were some smartl people and clueless people sat at a table negotiating terms - the smart were the books in 60's


Joe Coral, Ladbrokes, William Hill etc have become maissive businesses thanks to that favourable deal they struck.

So the bookies aren't paying their fair share either - no wonder admission is 20 to 25 Euro over there--somebody's gotta pay for the show.

[Charlie D]

So the bookies aren't paying their fair share either - no wonder admission is 20 to 25 Euro over there--somebody's gotta pay for the show.


Mike, just my opinion.


The people who should get the most benefit from betting on this sport should be those that put on the show. That is the owner, be he/she owner of a 3k Claimer or a Grade 1 horses.


Our current racing financing system in UK does not seem to do this. However, i heard this morning a body called The Horsemen Group is apparetly working with others on something to change this situation.

[gm10]

So the bookies aren't paying their fair share either - no wonder admission is 20 to 25 Euro over there--somebody's gotta pay for the show.

I think this is a more sensible approach. Make it too cheap and you'll mainly end up attracting a group with less disposable income, which is always a great way to keep the wealthier ones away.

Plus, it diversifies sources of revenue a bit.


By the way, for the regular goers, it's not nearly as expensive as it looks. An annual badge here at Epsom costs around 300 dollars, and you get free entrance on something like 20 dates at other venues too. Kempton, Lingfield, etc are similar.

[Saratoga_Mike]

rat

Mike, just my opinion.


The people who should get the most benefit from betting should be those that put on the show. That is the owner, be he/she owner of a 3k Claimer or a Grade 1 horses.


Our current racing financing system does not seem to do this. However, i heard this morning a body called The Horsemen Group is apparetly working with others on something to change this situation.

What does "rat" mean in your post?

[Saratoga_Mike]

I think this is a more sensible approach. Make it too cheap and you'll mainly end up attracting a group with less disposable income, which is always a great way to keep the wealthier ones away.

Plus, it diversifies sources of revenue a bit.


By the way, for the regular goers, it's not nearly as expensive as it looks. An annual badge here at Epsom costs around 300 dollars, and you get free entrance on something like 20 dates at other venues too. Kempton, Lingfield, etc are similar.

I guess the model works in the U.K. and other parts of Europe, but it would fail miserably in the United States--people couldn't fathom paying $30 to get into the horse track.

[Charlie D]

ignore "rat" mike, it's an error in editing which i have now corrected :)

[Saratoga_Mike]

ignore "rat" mike, it's an error in editing which i have now corrected :)

:) I thought it was a British term I wasn't aware of - thanks for the bookie/betfair info.

[Charlie D]

As stated elsewhere, there is nothing to fear from exchange betting. All the guys at TOC ( or whatever Group decides who gets what ) need to do, is ensure they get a fair slice of the pie. Which btw, i think will happen should exchanges be allowed in USA.

[gm10]

I guess the model works in the U.K. and other parts of Europe, but it would fail miserably in the United States--people couldn't fathom paying $30 to get into the horse track.

Good point.
How much do you pay to get into, say, Saratoga?

[Saratoga_Mike]

Good point.
How much do you pay to get into, say, Saratoga?

General admission is $3.

[gm10]

As tated elsewhere, there is nothing to fear from exchange betting. All the guys at TOC ( or whatever Group decides who gets what ) need to do, is ensure they get a fair slice of the pie. Which btw, i think will happen should exchanges be allowed in USA.

One thing to keep in mind is that it would introduce a whole new type of bet into the country: in-running betting. I think half of the bets on British races are placed in-running.

In-running betting is definitely a growth area in the US, I don't think it is even possible right now.

[gm10]

General admission is $3.

Cool ... that's on par with the French

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Foolish Pleasure

Australia has tote betting and fixed odds betting. Tote turnover has always been reasonably good in Australia

Betfair got its Australian licence back in 2006

http://www.theage.com.au/news/Business/Betfair-wins-first-Australian-licence/2006/01/16/1137259981838.html

In the 2004-05 season tote turnover on Australian racing was 8.8 billion
In the 2005-06 season tote turnover on Australian racing was 8.8 billion
In the 2008-09 season tote turnover on Australian racing was 9.8 billion

In the 2004-05 season total turnover both tote and fixed odds was 11.7 billion
In the 2005-06 season total turnover both tote and fixed odds was 11.7 billion
In the 2008-09 season total turnover both tote and fixed odds was 14.4 billion

So most of the betting growth in Australian racing in the last few years has been with fixed odds betting. At the same time tote turnover is not dropping like a stone as people were predicting before Betfair started up in Australia. In fact betting on horses has been very healthy since Betfair started up

If we compared USA tote figures from 2005 or 2006 to the present what would be the drop? 20%? 30%?
US Handle 2004: $15,836,000,000
US Handle 2009 $12,973,000,000 Down 18%

Australia Tote Handle Up 11% for the same period

I guess Australia didn't suffer through the world wide recession like the USA did. Or maybe exchange betting created more interest in horse racing.

[rwwupl]

What does "rat" mean in your post?



Dean T, You were right, Just sit back and watch. It's much more fun, :)
__________________

[Saratoga_Mike]

Dean T, You were right, Just sit back and watch. It's much more fun, :)
__________________

The word "rat" was randomly placed in his post - I asked what he meant by it. It was a typo - glad the exchange gave you so much enjoyment.

[Foolish Pleasure]

I guess Australia didn't suffer through the world wide recession like the USA did.



Very sorry but they don't have the same economic cycles as here.

WHy does an uneducated moron such as myself know this but you and the other supposed folks with a brain don't?



need look no further than Canada to see another country that didn't and for largely the same reasons.


Australia is a commodity based country, like Canada, like some of the Scandanavian countries and others.

When commodities skyrocket they benefit immensely. In fact it is inverse in some regards, as US dollars get cheaper as our economy tanks that makes commodities more expensive since they are traded in dollars and places like Australia benefit.


They have nothing close to the same economic cycle that the US does.


Guess what that means? Right, Australia did not have the increases in handle the US saw from 2000-2005 either but not posting that is painting the rosiest picture possible.


Which I already posted but I guess it must have been invisible.




and right like the UK, Australia already had fixed odds betting.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Try educating yourself.


They didn't-

Australia is a commodity based country, like Canada, like some of the Scandanavian countries.


How do commodity based countries do when commodities sky rocket in price?


They sure don't suffer like the more balanced economies of the world do like in the US.

The Australian economy certainly slowed with the downturn in commodity prices (demand) in the back half of 2008 and into 2009 (as China goes so goes Australia). With the resurgence of China, commodity prices (specifically met coal and iron ore) have come back strongly and are certainly much higher now than in 2004. The Aussie banking system, which is one of the world's strongest, weathered the global downturn very well. And I believe tourism softened a bit in late 2008 and into 2009. So I think overall there was a slowdown, which I think is what you were saying, but nothing like what was experienced in the United States and some European countries. Why do you think horse racing handle has fared so well in Australia (vs other major countries) since 2004--gambling growth has far outpaced economic growth?

[Foolish Pleasure]

Oil is 100% higher than 10yrs ago,

is Australian handle?


Australian handle has nowhere near kept pace with commodity prices the last 10yrs

it did not keep up with their inflation rate.

and since the Australian economy is based on commodities,

there is nothing to see here.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Oil is 100% higher than 10yrs ago,

is Australian handle?


Australian handle has nowhere near kept pace with commodity prices the last 10yrs

and since the Australian economy is based on commodities,

there is nothing to see here.

That's nice, but Australian oil exports are so de minimus that they're irrelevant. Their two main commodity exports are iron ore and coal. Granted as oil has risen, so have those two commodities. But from your prior posts about a poster needing to educate himself, I thought you'd want to be more accurate.

[Foolish Pleasure]

I can only post the sky is blue so many times.

SHows how ignorant this can get when a guy posts an either or like it must be Betfair or the economy and his choice of Betfair is so obviously incorrect.

Wanna nitpick fine, have a blast.

The Aussie handle did not keep up with local inflation,
not even close-touting it as successful when it can't keep up with inflation is ludicrous.








Excellent points- focusing on the UK and AUS where they already had fixed odds betting and success although largely non existant or marginal at best is being touted as savior like,

ignore France and South Africa, places much closer to the US being heavily reliant on overpriced tote without huge bookie networks already offering fixed odds. Where Betfair has basically drained the tote.







Likewise Betfair offers in running betting on many, many UK and Australian races,

something they will not be offering on US racing again anytime soon-


a product that is not obviously able to be synthesized in the tote.


but of course that is responsible for how much of these ultra rosy turnover numbers?



The sky is blue.

[Saratoga_Mike]

FP - you seem on edge.

[Some_One]

They matched $100K on the Travers,
Betfair makes between $500 to $750-

SAR's cut between $50 and $75.



Sure Burn in order for us to have a thriving sport that is the sort of thing needed along with a hike in takeout on the tote.




I am not really sure he actually believes lower takeout is better either.

Afterall Betfair has done nothing but raise the takeout on the exchange since they opened.

If they matched 100K, that means probably only 15K was backed to win (with the rest being the matching monies on the lay side). On average, the commission results in about 7% of the backing totals, sure its not the 15% the tracks take but no where near the pennies you claim.

[DeanT]

If they matched 100K, that means probably only 15K was backed to win (with the rest being the matching monies on the lay side). On average, the commission results in about 7% of the backing totals, sure its not the 15% the tracks take but no where near the pennies you claim.

It's really a simple analogy, but since we have had the pari-mutuel pools since about 1890, it is tough for racing to grasp a new phenomenon.

Here is a screen shot of a software package for trader types.

http://bfexplorer.net/Content/Pictures/BfexplorerPROandTrader.png

This allows for several things. The first and most obvious is the volume. This fella bet several thousand pounds on this race. If you notice, the takeout on the buy side is 99.64%, or below 100%, creating an edge. He exploited that edge and made about $250. Taxed at 5%, that brings in $12.50 revenue.

If you or I were betting in the win pool, say at Twinspires, to give $12.50 revenue at 15% takeout we would have to bet this horse $83 to win. So this, in effect is an $80 win bet.

Now, look at it logically. Look at the screen. Is this player really wanting to go to a track and bet $80 to win on something? Of course not, he is doing something different, because the platform allows him to do something different. Show this screen to a dude at the simo center today and tell him its racing, and he will think you are from Mars. It does not appeal to a lot of old time bettors.

In the end we have $12.50 made off this person. If this was not there, we have $0 made off this person.

Racing realized that $12.50 is greater than $0.00, and by expanding markets through different 21st century mediums it can be beneficial to the sport.

[Saratoga_Mike]

It's really a simple analogy, but since we have had the pari-mutuel pools since about 1890, it is tough for racing to grasp a new phenomenon.

Here is a screen shot of a software package for trader types.

http://bfexplorer.net/Content/Pictures/BfexplorerPROandTrader.png

This allows for several things. The first and most obvious is the volume. This fella bet several thousand pounds on this race. If you notice, the takeout on the buy side is 99.64%, or below 100%, creating an edge. He exploited that edge and made about $250. Taxed at 5%, that brings in $12.50 revenue.

If you or I were betting in the win pool, say at Twinspires, to give $12.50 revenue at 15% takeout we would have to bet this horse $83 to win. So this, in effect is an $80 win bet.

Now, look at it logically. Look at the screen. Is this player really wanting to go to a track and bet $80 to win on something? Of course not, he is doing something different, because the platform allows him to do something different. Show this screen to a dude at the simo center today and tell him its racing, and he will think you are from Mars. It does not appeal to a lot of old time bettors.

In the end we have $12.50 made off this person. If this was not there, we have $0 made off this person.

Racing realized that $12.50 is greater than $0.00, and by expanding markets through different 21st century mediums it can be beneficial to the sport.

Dean, I disagree with you on this one. I suspect half the Pace board would be interested in Betfair if it were legal in the US (if I knew how to do a poll on here I would). Does US handle fall under the old 80/20 rule or maybe even 95/5 rule, where 95% of the handle is generated by 5% of the bettors? That 5% is probably the most sophisticated/dedicated/complusive, and I suspect most would like to have access to Betfair. Giving them access would cannibalize existing handle, imo.

[DeanT]

Dean, I disagree with you on this one. I suspect half the Pace board would be interested in Betfair if it were legal in the US (if I knew how to do a poll on here I would). Does US handle fall under the old 80/20 rule or maybe even 95/5 rule, where 95% of the handle is generated by 5% of the bettors? That 5% is probably the most sophisticated/dedicated/complusive, and I suspect most would like to have access to Betfair. Giving them access would cannibalize existing handle, imo.

It sounds logical Mike, but it does not really happen like that. What tends to happen is the following:

1- The new platform attracts new money
2 - The New platform attracts old money who have left
3- The new platform attracts money that is existing, however, when people are making a little more at racing, or losing a little less, it gets them to follow the sport more, and bet more into the pools (i.e. weekend warriors or once a week players now play three or four times)

I was on a panel about four years ago about wagering and new wagering concepts. The dude beside me was a horseplayer until about 1998 (takeout was too high and he could win more playing poker and betting sports). Then BF came along. He joined in 2001 and started to look at racing again. He played into BF quite a bit of money (many millions).

What happened was something that did not surprise me, but did surprise the racing execs in the crowd. He detailed that because he followed the sport again, he was betting into the pools. He told them he tried a place pool system that he developed and he bet $425k testing it into the pools. Then he detailed his exotic bets, which were over $800k, for a grand total of 1.25M bet into the pools (previous years handle)

A racing executive stood up and asked "why should we allow Betfair. You are betting into the pools, so if it was not there you would bet win in the pools too. Would you not bet $3M or $4m with us?"

The answer was short and sweet. "If BF was not here and I could not play it, my parimutuel handle would be $0"

The crowd (kind of like the crowd here now in 2010) did not believe him. It had to cannibalize pools they said.

Then a short time later, the Tasmania data came out. For the first time we could see what happened when they entered a market: Prize money was up, and handle was up by 30% (domestic handle was up in total as well as offshore).

While execs scratched their heads, horseplayers were saying "what is so surprising dudes?"

Edit: Link to the Tasmania first year numbers.

http://www.themercury.com.au/article/2008/10/31/35645_tasmania-news.html

[Saratoga_Mike]

It sounds logical Mike, but it does not really happen like that. What tends to happen is the following:

1- The new platform attracts new money
2 - The New platform attracts old money who have left
3- The new platform attracts money that is existing, however, when people are making a little more at racing, or losing a little less, it gets them to follow the sport more, and bet more into the pools (i.e. weekend warriors or once a week players now play three or four times)

http://www.themercury.com.au/article/2008/10/31/35645_tasmania-news.html

Just in case you turn out to be wrong, I think Betfair should be test marketed at one or two tracks in the US before being rolled out nationally. Would you take issue with that?

[DeanT]

Just in case you turn out to be wrong, I think Betfair should be test marketed at one or two tracks in the US before being rolled out nationally. Would you take issue with that?

I believe that is what this bill does. SA, DMR, GGX will be the tracks available to CA residents. There is your test case.

I honestly dont care much Mike. Racing execs will do what racing execs do. To this day we see it around the world. It is the only business who can preside over a business which has lost close to 50% of its real handle this decade, who stay in their jobs. Some of these folks were even promoted.

It is what it is.

[Charlie D]

TOTE's arrangement with Betfair that provides the company with access to Betfair's global customer base of more than one million punters substantially adds to the totalisator pools.



I think i may be one of those global customers. C'mon US racing leaders WAKE UP for gawd sake.

[Some_One]

For a betting exchange model to work, there needs to be liquidity, if you don't have it, you're and ibetx or betdaq that does low volume. So for things to work the best, tracks should partner with Betfair, and obviously they already have 10 tracks or so every day, it's just they can't take American money.

[Some_One]

I think i may be one of those global customers. C'mon US racing leaders WAKE UP for gawd sake.

You can bet into the US tote pools on Betfair, with the exception of Canadian players

[Saratoga_Mike]

I believe that is what this bill does. SA, DMR, GGX will be the tracks available to CA residents. There is your test case.

I honestly dont care much Mike. Racing execs will do what racing execs do. To this day we see it around the world. It is the only business who can preside over a business which has lost close to 50% of its real handle this decade, who stay in their jobs. Some of these folks were even promoted.

It is what it is.

As I said to you probably 700 posts ago, I'd hire you to run my track. One problem: I don't own a track!

[Charlie D]

You can bet into the US tote pools on Betfair, with the exception of Canadian players

Only at certain tracks Some One. IE: You can't get into Socal Tote pools.

[Some_One]

Only at certain tracks Some One. IE: You can't get into Socal Tote pools.

Really? Ok i stand corrected, as a Canuck, I wouldn't know, I thought it was all

[Foolish Pleasure]

He honestly doesn't care,
just been shilling Betfair's interests all week long.

and backing with it with the usual incredibly ignorant information would be embarrasing for a professional in any other field.


THey could cut takeout to 1/10th of 1% and the end results would not change one teeny little bit.


All one has to do is look in the threads to see why.




If they matched 100K, that means probably only 15K was backed to win (with the rest being the matching monies on the lay side). On average, the commission results in about 7% of the backing totals, sure its not the 15% the tracks take but no where near the pennies you claim.


I guess betfair's own financial statements are wrong.

The ones where they unequivocally state they hold around 1/2 of 1% of the matched totals at random.




such a joke,

players adovcacy groups supporting a bill that raises the takeout on the most bet pools with this idiotic clinging to this retarded notion that betfair and/or exchaneg wagering is the savior.

morons.



Don't worry about deleting any more posts or locking any more threads,
costs me $25,000/yr to post and it ain't happening here again for a long time.

Can go back to hosting the touts, shills, authors and know nothing types while our forum actually hosts full time professionals bettors.

[cj]

Don't worry about deleting any more posts or locking any more threads,
costs me $25,000/yr to post and it ain't happening here again for a long time.



Wow, two "I'm leaving" posts in the same day. Full Moon?

[Tom]

Don't worry about deleting any more posts or locking any more threads, costs me $25,000/yr to post and it ain't happening here again for a long time.

You need a better ISP!

[Some_One]

I guess betfair's own financial statements are wrong.

The ones where they unequivocally state they hold around 1/2 of 1% of the matched totals at random.




I checked their Corporate website, saw no mention of that 'fact', please provide a link to support that statement.