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View Full Version : I asked Stephen Burn why he supports Ca takeout raise.


Stillriledup
08-26-2010, 11:37 AM
Stephen was chatting with fans over at the Paulick report, i asked him this question, and he answered.

Mr Burn, you seem like a smart guy, i enjoyed your interview with Todd on TVG the other day. You are supporting a takeout raise in Cal of 2 or 3 percent. As i’m sure you are well aware, many studies have been done and to my knowledge, none of the studies say that a 23 percent takeout is the optimal pricing point.

Do you disagree with all the studies that have said the optimal price of a bet is NOT 23 percent? Like i said, you’re a fairly intelligent guy, i can’t imagine that you really believe a takeout raise is good for the california racing industry.


Stephen Burn said:

stillriledup, as a horseplayer I would accept that an increased take out of any kind would be unpalatable. However, as that same horseplayer, I want to see a healthy sport that has the chance of a long-term future and people with much more knowledge than me of California racing believe this will help the sport. It is worth noting that other states already have take outs that exceed California. In the UK, there is a healthy Tote industry and some of the most successful bets have a take out of 30%.
To me, we should be looking at how to rebate price sensitive customers so that skilled horseplayers who put a lot of money into pools are given a loyalty bonus or rakeback. I struggle to understand why US racing is so willing to cooperate with offshore rebate shops that suck the life out of the sport. We should be exploring ways of bringing that business back onshore and, at the same time, rewarding regular players with rebates. It should be the operator that stands the price of those rebates and not the sport but they could only do that if working out the right pricing formula all round. Irrespective of what happens to AB2414, I hope that issue will be explored by the industry.


Now, it seems that Ray Paulick locked that thread, so i'll try and respond to this here.

Mr Burn seems to think that the horseplayer is responsible for the health of the industry. I would ask him this. If the long term health of the industry is so important, why not lower the price of the bets to get the fans back into the game? Also, why not ask jockeys and trainers to take a 50 percent pay cut on their commissions and day rates? This way, more owners can afford to stay in the game, they'll get more purse money at the end of the day.

The richest trainers and jockeys have sucked millions out of the game, a large chunk of that money (or, all of it) comes from the horseplayers and the owners. Not only do owners pay a day rate to a trainer win or lose, but they also pay part of their winning purse to those guys too, right?

What am i missing here.

Horseplayers have no voice, this is why tracks can just grab and extra 3 percent here and there and there's nothing the players can do. If someone suggest the trainers and jocks take a pay cut, all hell would break loose.

andymays
08-26-2010, 11:42 AM
Good job putting him on the spot.

His answer is bullshit. Now I have to believe that Betfair is bullshit too. It is quite obvious that he cut a deal with some of the Racing Executives in California along with Brackpool who is another suspicious character.

They won't get the benefit of the doubt from me from here on out.

rrbauer
08-26-2010, 11:53 AM
There is ABSOLUTELY NO proof that increasing the price improves the product. Not in horse racing, prostitution or for anything in between. On the contrary, where horse racing is involved if it were the case, then over the past 20 years the finest product imaginable should have evolved and be on display today for horseplayers. Clearly that hasn't happened; indeed, just the opposite is happening.

If horse owners/trainers are so destitute I suggest they either try something else and get out of the business; or, they get in line with the other welfare recipients.

Greyfox
08-26-2010, 11:54 AM
His answer is bullshit.

:ThmbUp: Spot on.
How can the game become healthy if they drive the customers away?
Give Burn an enema.

Horseplayersbet.com
08-26-2010, 11:59 AM
I find what Burns said to be disingenuous to an enormous degree based on his comments.

He of all people should realize that rebates or lowering takeout isn't about appeasing price sensitive and big players, but giving all players an opportunity to last longer, spend more time betting on horses, and opening the door to the chance that some can win which will create a whole new market of wannabes (this has been the key to Betfair's success).

Andy, I agree, he is full of it. He isn't a stupid guy.

He realizes that the higher the takeout in California, the more likely people will turn off parimutuel and bet on the exchange.

Secondly, he realizes he needs to invent reasons why a takeout increase makes sense so as to support the bill, which will get Betfair in the door.

Now, I'm not saying exchange betting is bad for the industry, in fact, parimutuel wagering has risen wherever Betfair has shown up. But Burns is playing with the media right now.

There is no way he believes that the increase in takeout will add to the health of the racing industry in California. I'm not buying it for a minute.

Stillriledup
08-26-2010, 11:59 AM
Its probably never happened in the history of US business where a floundering company raised prices and that price raise got them back to a healthy vibrant company. If there is an example out there of something like this, i'd love to hear about it.

Why do you think In and Out Burger has a line wrapped around the corner day and night 7 days a week at every INOB in the state of California and Nevada? Because they sell a great product at a very low price and they make their money off volume. Racing is the anti In and Out Burger.

andymays
08-26-2010, 12:07 PM
I find what Burns to be disingenuous to an enormous degree based on his comments.

He of all people should realize that rebates or lowering takeout isn't about appeasing price sensitive and big players, but giving all players an opportunity to last longer, spend more time betting on horses, and opening the door to the chance that some can win which will create a whole new market of wannabes (this has been the key to Betfair's success).

Andy, I agree, he is full of it. He isn't a stupid guy.

He realizes that the higher the takeout in California, the more likely people will turn off parimutuel and bet on the exchange.

Secondly, he realizes he needs to invent reasons why a takeout increase makes sense so as to support the bill, which will get Betfair in the door.

Now, I'm not saying exchange betting is bad for the industry, in fact, parimutuel wagering has risen wherever Betfair has shown up. But Burns is playing with the media right now.

There is no way he believes that the increase in takeout will add to the health of the racing industry in California. I'm not buying it for a minute.

This is exactly the kind of twisted deal making that has gone on in California for decades. It's just that lately we are finding out about this stuff.

What pisses me off even more is that no reporter will pin these guys down on this stuff and ask them directly about the side deals. Another reason to be skeptical of industry leadership.

horses4courses
08-26-2010, 12:07 PM
Its probably never happened in the history of US business where a floundering company raised prices and that price raise got them back to a healthy vibrant company. If there is an example out there of something like this, i'd love to hear about it.

Why do you think In and Out Burger has a line wrapped around the corner day and night 7 days a week at every INOB in the state of California and Nevada? Because they sell a great product at a very low price and they make their money off volume. Racing is the anti In and Out Burger.

Mmmmm....I love In and Out burgers....... :ThmbUp:

Gotta get one soon....30 minutes away from me...it's been over 6 months

Screw the cardiologist!!!

Oh, and btw...this Betfair guy Burn is full of S H one T

Charlie D
08-26-2010, 12:10 PM
Interesting comments from Burns.

Maybe someone could ask the BF rep why one of Betfair big players (racehorse owner too) is asking UKTote to reduce take to around 12%.

jballscalls
08-26-2010, 12:15 PM
Its probably never happened in the history of US business where a floundering company raised prices and that price raise got them back to a healthy vibrant company. If there is an example out there of something like this, i'd love to hear about it.

Why do you think In and Out Burger has a line wrapped around the corner day and night 7 days a week at every INOB in the state of California and Nevada? Because they sell a great product at a very low price and they make their money off volume. Racing is the anti In and Out Burger.

ironically In and Out Burger raised their prices on every menu item in April. good timing for your example :)

http://fastfood.ocregister.com/2010/04/13/in-n-out-burger-raises-menu-prices/58221/

Foolish Pleasure
08-26-2010, 12:29 PM
Obviously not smart and obviously a bought and paid for Betfair shill like I posted three times in the other thread.

Anyone who believes exchange betting has not led to a astronimical rise in sports corruption is an idiot,

anyone in an official capacity who believes this is a bought and paid for shill of Betfair.


which one will find is extremely common when it comes to UK gaming authorities.

Charlie D
08-26-2010, 12:36 PM
FP

Once again your blame is misplaced, but carry on refusing to see it's the insiders who rip off the other bettors and not the platform being used for the bet placement.

It is quite funny reading your dribble tbh.

Stillriledup
08-26-2010, 12:37 PM
ironically In and Out Burger raised their prices on every menu item in April. good timing for your example :)

http://fastfood.ocregister.com/2010/04/13/in-n-out-burger-raises-menu-prices/58221/

Thanks! :jump:

Horseplayersbet.com
08-26-2010, 12:43 PM
ironically In and Out Burger raised their prices on every menu item in April. good timing for your example :)

http://fastfood.ocregister.com/2010/04/13/in-n-out-burger-raises-menu-prices/58221/
Companies can raise prices when demand increases and get away with it. That is how business is supposed to work.

It works with real estate and on Ebay real well too.

If California racing had an item on Ebay that wasn't being bid on, they would raise the price because it will help them have a healthy industry. :bang: :bang: :bang:

Foolish Pleasure
08-26-2010, 12:43 PM
He of all people should realize that rebates or lowering takeout isn't about appeasing price sensitive and big players, but giving all players an opportunity to last longer, spend more time betting on horses, and opening the door to the chance that some can win which will create a whole new market of wannabes (this has been the key to Betfair's success).







Need new losers betting, not the same losers milking their stacks.


and anything short of a dramatic cut in takeout like I have posted 1000times now,
offer zero takeout betting for all bets made at >10mins to post,

will not accomplish this goal-


everything else is just moving the shells around.




and the fantastical garbage repeatedly being posting about Betfair is enough already.


HAs Betfair taken out or put in more to every sport they offer betting on?
Betfair matches $1,000,000 they earn $5000, they pay the track $500.
Those are the real numbers.

or they make ten times what they pay towards purses.

Do any US tracks make ten times what they pay towards purses?



Tote handle up everywhere? Really, it not up in the US, it not up in France, it not up in Australia, mnot up in South Africa,
in fact it is not up anywhere except maybe in the UK and there it had nowhere to go but up.


unless one uses the same specious methods and means like the people trying to say handle is up everywhere that installed synthetic track.

Foolish Pleasure
08-26-2010, 12:46 PM
Should rename this forum THE BETFAIR LIES.


People are a joke and a half re iterating 100% complete lies in a self serving effort to promote bullshit.


IT is embarrasing,

hard to tell who is worse here,

the oblivious tracks or the Betfair shills and their repeated lies.


Soon I will be reading Betfair actually invented gambling.


(which by the way is another Betfair lie-they did not invent exchange wagering like they perpetually tout- a company called Bet-EX was the first to actually offer exchange wagering but like rest why let the truth get in the way?)









:bang: :bang: :bang:

DJofSD
08-26-2010, 01:00 PM
Good job putting him on the spot.

His answer is bullshit. Now I have to believe that Betfair is bullshit too. It is quite obvious that he cut a deal with some of the Racing Executives in California along with Brackpool who is another suspicious character.

They won't get the benefit of the doubt from me from here on out.
Ditto.

Foolish Pleasure
08-26-2010, 01:04 PM
Last I looked no other part of Betfair site will be legal in the US either if this bill is passed.


Which makes comparing the US to any other jurisdiction useless.


I guess the SOuth Africans and French both who explicitly banned internet gambling after Betfair's arrival must have missed that increased tote business.





South Africa bans online gambling
26/08/2010
Suzie Neuwirth


Online gambling is now prohibited in South Africa, following a ruling by the North Gauteng High Court last week.

The South African gambling regulator, the Gauteng Gambling Board, issued a media release this week stating its support of the legislation.

The High Court’s decision ruled that internet operators who offer online gambling, players who participate, and service providers or marketers who facilitate the industry are at risk of being prosecuted.

The statement said that persons found guilty of breaching the new gambling legislation could be “Liable for a fine not exceeding ZAR 10m (approx £880,000) or to imprisonment for a period not exceeding 10 years or to both such fine and imprisonment.”

The ruling also said that those who contravened the prohibition “may not be suitable to hold an online gambling licence when South Africa invites application for online gambling licence”.

EGRMagazine previously reported that Betfair was considering applying for a licence in South Africa prior to the ruling, and that Ladbrokes had submitted an application.

Most forms of gambling were restricted in South Africa until 1996, when the National Gambling Act introduced licensed casinos and a national lottery.

Don't miss out on egaming news: sign up for our free, daily Snapshot email. Or get the news as its breaks with the free eGaming Review RSS feed.

Foolish Pleasure
08-26-2010, 01:11 PM
Does the tote charge more if one is a consistent winner?
Imagine if the tracks wrote rules this confusing to have figure out an expected payout after all the fees and commissions-

and guess what?


right the tracks and sports DO NOT GET A CUT OF THIS FEE-
kind of odd isn't it? Since they supposed to get a cut of the action.


This is lilly white Betfair how can they be charging fees to consistent winners only,
fees that one would need a degree in rocket science or brain surgery to understand and fees which they are obviously not splitting with the tracks.



This is the current definition of the Betfair Premium Charge,
a charge they unilaterally imposed on some arbitrary date with no considerations whatsoever for pending action that may be affected-exactly how someone who knows their customers would act in a gaming business-NOT-change the odds after the bet has already been struck by raising the takeout-it is horrendous.


Become a consistent winner of any sort of real money and pay the following:

http://betfair-en.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/3884
Will my account be affected by the Premium Charge?
You will only be considered for the Premium Charge if, over the lifetime of your account, you satisfy all of the following criteria:

Your account is in profit;
Your total charges generated are less than 20% of gross profits; and
You bet in more than 250 markets.
Two further conditions reduce the likelihood that you will be required to pay the Premium Charge:

Any single win that constitutes more than 50% of your gross profits over the lifetime of your account will be excluded from the calculation; and
Each customer has a lifetime allowance of £1,000 of Premium Charges which can be incurred before any Premium Charge is paid.
Each week the customers who meet all the conditions set out above will be charged the lesser of:

The difference between 20% of the previous week’s gross profits and the total charges generated during the week; and
The difference between 20% of gross profits and the total charges generated during the lifetime of the account.
Please note that for the purposes of calculating the charge we will assume that the charge has been in place since Betfair launched in June 2000. This means that we will consider all customers to have generated charges equal to at least 20% of lifetime gross profits as of the 12th October 2009. However, this also means that for some customers, some or all of the £1,000 allowance against the charge will have been used prior to 12th October 2009 in order to offset hypothetical charges paid. The assumption that hypothetical charges, less allowance, were paid prior to the introduction of the Premium Charge will typically reduce the Premium Charge a customer would incur.




I will translate into english for the laggards,

this means everyone will pay at least 20% of every net dollar they earn on the exchange in commission.


by the way they tout that only 1/2 of 1% of their customers pay this fee,
should pretty much tell you how easy it is to win anything of real value on Betfair.

Charlie D
08-26-2010, 01:24 PM
this means everyone will pay at least 20% of every net dollar they earn on the exchange in commission.


And Tote model means you pay a higher % in most instances whether you win or lose. You also have other betting options (see Mr B Meadows post in another thread) on an exchange


Best value is where FP???

Fingal
08-26-2010, 01:30 PM
There is nothing FAIR about Betfair.

PT Barnum lives. :rolleyes:

Foolish Pleasure
08-26-2010, 01:32 PM
IT is obvious you are a fanatic like some of the others,
and by definition a fanatic is going to ignore all facts and continue promoting their fanaticism.




I am merely pointing out the actual truth for people who actually care about the truth.



Just imagine if the tracks had a sign outside,

At the end of every week if you are ahead and have not paid at least 20% of that amount in commission-you owe it now.


How long would that last?



WEll here Betfair owns the UK Gaming Commission and despite the language on the commission's homepage that directly contradicts this aka one cannot employ confusing rules when one is determing commissions-

they could careless.



Penalizing winners that is exactly what US horse racing needs. Not only a place that penalizes winners but does it in a stealth manner where the tracks don't even get any of that money,

and one needs an advanced degree to figure out what the actual afterall fees and commissions odds they will be getting.

DJofSD
08-26-2010, 01:37 PM
Just imagine if the tracks had a sign outside,


I floated the idea recently, I think it was in one of the HANA threads, that in CA, there should be signs posted advertizing the take-out/vig rates for all wagers. It should be posted on all self service machines, within 20 feet of any wagering window and a pop-up on any online platform.

Call it the truth in wagering law.

Charlie D
08-26-2010, 01:37 PM
It is obvious you have no idea how to help racing, it's customers, nor any concept of value FP

DeanT
08-26-2010, 01:55 PM
Interesting comments from Burns.

Maybe someone could ask the BF rep why one of Betfair big players (racehorse owner too) is asking UKTote to reduce take to around 12%.

Follow the cash.

He is not going to throw the people who want him there under the bus and vice versa. It's passing a law that has one good thing for him, and another thing he probably really thinks is dumb, but needs support.

The bettors' opinion is felt, with emails etc (which are ignored), but it will be really felt, just like it has the last decade - with them quietly leaving, and gross handles falling and falling.

The premium charge at BF is understood by people who play there. It is a charge against the betting bots who try and sneak in under large bids and trade the markets, not adding much to the customer experience who bet long or short on horses. They want people who take a stand to have a shot, and the bots to pay up if they are going to screw up markets.

Charlie D
08-26-2010, 02:03 PM
Follow the cash.

He is not going to throw the people who want him there under the bus and vice versa. It's passing a law that has one good thing for him, and another thing he probably really thinks is dumb, but needs support.

The bettors' opinion is felt, with emails etc (which are ignored), but it will be really felt, just like it has the last decade - with them quietly leaving, and gross handles falling and falling.

The premium charge at BF is understood by people who play there. It is a charge against the betting bots who try and sneak in under large bids and trade the markets, not adding much to the customer experience who bet long or short on horses. They want people who take a stand to have a shot, and the bots to pay up if they are going to screw up markets.


Dean. Don't tell em, let them all think exchange betting is an evil monster. They can all then watch thier sport carry on dying.

SMOO
08-26-2010, 02:05 PM
Its probably never happened in the history of US business where a floundering company raised prices and that price raise got them back to a healthy vibrant company.

:ThmbUp:

Canarsie
08-26-2010, 02:28 PM
Should rename this forum THE BETFAIR LIES.



Soon I will be reading Betfair actually invented gambling.




No Al Gore did. :lol:

andymays
08-26-2010, 02:55 PM
I floated the idea recently, I think it was in one of the HANA threads, that in CA, there should be signs posted advertizing the take-out/vig rates for all wagers. It should be posted on all self service machines, within 20 feet of any wagering window and a pop-up on any online platform.

Call it the truth in wagering law.


They should print the takeout on every wagering slip next to the amount bet. If they're giving us a fair deal they shouldn't mind. ;)

jelly
08-26-2010, 02:58 PM
This is exactly the kind of twisted deal making that has gone on in California for decades. It's just that lately we are finding out about this stuff.

What pisses me off even more is that no reporter will pin these guys down on this stuff and ask them directly about the side deals. Another reason to be skeptical of industry leadership.



100% with you on this.Reporters in this industry are weak.

DeanT
08-26-2010, 03:05 PM
I floated the idea recently, I think it was in one of the HANA threads, that in CA, there should be signs posted advertizing the take-out/vig rates for all wagers. It should be posted on all self service machines, within 20 feet of any wagering window and a pop-up on any online platform.

Call it the truth in wagering law.

Interesting idea. Perhaps something we should float out there to see if players are supportive of that!?

rwwupl
08-26-2010, 03:10 PM
Interesting idea. Perhaps something we should float out there to see if players are supportive of that!?

I like it.

rwwupl

andymays
08-26-2010, 03:18 PM
I could maybe see getting away with having it printed on the ticket. The tracks would have a sh*t fit if anyone suggested they had to hang signs up.

It would be funny to stand near the machines though and hear the comments from the people who saw the signs. :)

kenwoodall2
08-26-2010, 03:28 PM
What the industry and most horseplayers are missing in their mindset in the future tense. Bettors ARE rebate IS- almost all in racing assumes that not 1 new player will come into the sport. I have never heard of a successful business where they want the exact same number of customers as they have now. Racing loves to move money around but has no clue how to bring in substanial new persons to own or bet on or watch racehorses. Racing is and will keep dying with that attitude and will always be a slave to the economic trends.
People alwayus look at the shortest time period possible, conceding Betfair WILL keep bringing in new players, assuming only an English exchange and not an American one is possible.

elhelmete
08-26-2010, 03:50 PM
I could maybe see getting away with having it printed on the ticket. The tracks would have a sh*t fit if anyone suggested they had to hang signs up.

It would be funny to stand near the machines though and hear the comments from the people who saw the signs. :)

Casinos should do this too. Every slot/vid poker machine should show the rake off of natural odds payoffs, and signs should be posted near the table games. :lol: :lol: :lol:

I actually think racetracks would be more likely to do that than any casino in the USA.

Tom
08-26-2010, 04:03 PM
IF you want to improve the racing product, ban dinosaurs like Burns from getting anywhere close to it. With all due respect (:lol:) Mr,. Burns, YOU are what is wrong with this game.

Transfer this bozo to the NYS Thruway Authority - where their answer to diminished use of the TOLL ROAD was to RAISE THE TOLLS! He would fit in nicely with them.

JustRalph
08-26-2010, 04:54 PM
There is ABSOLUTELY NO proof that increasing the price improves the product. Not in horse racing, prostitution or for anything in between. On the contrary, where horse racing is involved if it were the case, then over the past 20 years the finest product imaginable should have evolved and be on display today for horseplayers. Clearly that hasn't happened; indeed, just the opposite is happening.

If horse owners/trainers are so destitute I suggest they either try something else and get out of the business; or, they get in line with the other welfare recipients.

Having arrested a few hookers in my time, I gotta tell you the 500 dollar types are much better than the fifty dollar types :lol:

Sounds to me like burns is doing the same ole song and dance we have heard before.


It will never change until we can hit them in their pockets

owlet
08-26-2010, 05:40 PM
Betfair and their ilk will reap what they sow.

mannyberrios
08-26-2010, 07:06 PM
:1: Doesnt TVG charge for their services?

Charli125
08-26-2010, 07:30 PM
Having arrested a few hookers in my time, I gotta tell you the 500 dollar types are much better than the fifty dollar types :lol:


Arrested...sure...I believe that that's how you know that $500 types are better! ;)

andymays
08-26-2010, 07:33 PM
:1: Doesnt TVG charge for their services?

I don't think they charge the .25 per bet anymore but I could be wrong.

InsideThePylons-MW
08-26-2010, 08:33 PM
I don't think they charge the .25 per bet anymore but I could be wrong.

They still charge 25 cents per bet up to a max 19.95 per month.

Betfair is always looking out for the bettor......yeah right!

jballscalls
08-26-2010, 08:48 PM
I could maybe see getting away with having it printed on the ticket. The tracks would have a sh*t fit if anyone suggested they had to hang signs up.

It would be funny to stand near the machines though and hear the comments from the people who saw the signs. :)

we have the takeout chart posted at all our OTB places as well as right next to the program stands and the mainline of tellers at the track.

it's also printed on the front page of each tracks DRF, generally on or near the entries page.

andymays
08-26-2010, 08:49 PM
we have the takeout chart posted at all our OTB places as well as right next to the program stands and the mainline of tellers at the track.
it's also printed on the front page of each tracks DRF, generally on or near the entries page.

Never noticed that anywhere else. Is it a State rule or law?

jballscalls
08-26-2010, 09:30 PM
Never noticed that anywhere else. Is it a State rule or law?

GM's decision

andymays
08-26-2010, 09:41 PM
GM's decision

Wow. Good for him.

What's the deal up there for satellite wagering. Isn't there a 5% charge at the different locations?

jballscalls
08-26-2010, 09:51 PM
Wow. Good for him.

What's the deal up there for satellite wagering. Isn't there a 5% charge at the different locations?

yeah, $2.10 for every two dollar wager. most ridiculous thing in the history of the world

andymays
08-26-2010, 09:53 PM
yeah, $2.10 for every two dollar wager. most ridiculous thing in the history of the world

I drove to Seattle once and stopped at the Lava Bowl in Medford Oregon.


They still get people to play there. Even with the 5%. I guess the businesses that have the wagering do well with it.

Charli125
08-26-2010, 11:30 PM
Casinos should do this too. Every slot/vid poker machine should show the rake off of natural odds payoffs, and signs should be posted near the table games. :lol: :lol: :lol:

I actually think racetracks would be more likely to do that than any casino in the USA.

They actually do this with most slots. They'll have signs saying, "95% returned!!!" and that kind of thing. Instead of showing it as how much they take out, they show it as how much they give back. Pretty smart.

jballscalls
08-27-2010, 12:50 AM
I drove to Seattle once and stopped at the Lava Bowl in Medford Oregon.


They still get people to play there. Even with the 5%. I guess the businesses that have the wagering do well with it.

Lava Lanes always draws a decent crowd there. i'd say they average about 7k a day in handle, sometimes as much as 18 or 20, sometimes as little as 4k.

elhelmete
08-27-2010, 02:39 PM
Can you imagine if every winning bet shown on screens once a race goes official was the pre-takeout price? Then when you go cash a winner, it prints out (or the teller gives you the cash with a 'receipt') the winnings after the rake.

DJofSD
08-27-2010, 02:53 PM
Can you imagine if every winning bet shown on screens once a race goes official was the pre-takeout price? Then when you go cash a winner, it prints out (or the teller gives you the cash with a 'receipt') the winnings after the rake.
Oh, ya, just like your trades -- you see the break out of the market price for the transaction then what are the brokerage fees then the net cost/procedings.

Charlie D
08-27-2010, 03:23 PM
They still charge 25 cents per bet up to a max 19.95 per month.

Betfair is always looking out for the bettor......yeah right!


No charge per bet like above over this side of pond by Betfair or any other betting service provider. So one can only presume there are no real objections from the Horseplayers of America to these charges.

InsideThePylons-MW
08-27-2010, 03:52 PM
No charge per bet like above over this side of pond by Betfair or any other betting service provider. So one can only presume there are no real objections from the Horseplayers of America to these charges.

TVG/Betfair prides itself on bringing new people into the market.

Let's see.....

A newbie make a $2 place bet at Yavapai on Tuesday, wins and gets back $2.20.

He paid $2.25 to make tha bet and got back $2.20.

So takeout on the bet is 20%, he pays 25 cents to make the bet and factor in possible breakage......

The newbies takeout rate is possibly higher than 40% for that place bet in which he won and lost money.

Charlie D
08-27-2010, 04:12 PM
Yep!! ITP

The US side of Betfair thinking seems totally opposite or at odds to the Euro side thinking and it makes it very :confused: tbh.

elhelmete
08-27-2010, 04:27 PM
They actually do this with most slots. They'll have signs saying, "95% returned!!!" and that kind of thing. Instead of showing it as how much they take out, they show it as how much they give back. Pretty smart.

They do, except to the best of my knowledge, the 95% (or whatever % they tout) is sort of a blended rate among all their slots, some very tight, some very loose. And they hide the loose ones! :)

BarnieClockerbigal
08-28-2010, 03:03 PM
good lord lots of misinformation on this thread. The PC (premium charge) is not for all winning bettors. it is for bot players who squeeze out a profit arbing the Betfair system.

regular bettors are not effected by the PC. Only very active traders (mostly who use bots to get the ineffenicies in the market).

Jeez at least get the facts straight before posting.

Allan

Foolish Pleasure
08-28-2010, 03:46 PM
The premium charge at BF is understood by people who play there. It is a charge against the betting bots who try and sneak in under large bids and trade the markets, not adding much to the customer experience who bet long or short on horses. They want people who take a stand to have a shot, and the bots to pay up if they are going to screw up markets.


100% false.

Following in Burns footsteps now with the strawmen of the people who play there understand? Like Burns everyone understands we need higher takeout.


They have separate pricing for bots as well:excessive refreshing fees.
That is for the the bots.

Even more stealth fees, does the US tote charge large automated players more? I don't think so, in fact I believe the guys in Chicago pay less than everyone but three people maybe.







The premium fee effects anyone who is a profitable consistent efficient winner.


It is the BF way of saying you have not paid enough to attract the losers money you just took.


or are we supposed to believe that only 1/2 of 1% of betfair's business is from bots because afterall that is all it effects and is likewise ludicrous beyond comprehension.


you people should be paid by them to spread this repeated garbage.

Foolish Pleasure
08-28-2010, 03:58 PM
Only very active traders (mostly who use bots to get the ineffenicies in the market).

Jeez at least get the facts straight before posting.

Allan





Incredibly inaccurate.

Very active traders DON'T PAY THE FEE. They churn enough to satisfy Betfair's craving for money,

it is people who don't churn a lot of money and are efficient at winning.


IOW anything but what you just posted.


Yea Betfair players know all right.

Stillriledup
08-28-2010, 07:00 PM
Oh, ya, just like your trades -- you see the break out of the market price for the transaction then what are the brokerage fees then the net cost/procedings.

THere would be a lot less fans/bettors in the USA if they did show you the pre-takeout price.

lots of People don't realize how much money the racing industry is taking from them per bet.

Charlie D
08-28-2010, 07:30 PM
Again Foolish Pleasure. EDUCATE YOURSELF.(Spend a few days on Betfair website reading)












4) Transaction Charges

In addition to any commission payments, Betfair customers will be charged a transaction fee if they process a large number of transactions.

NB – Transaction Charges only apply to customers placing or editing more than 1000 bets an hour.

At the end of every day, we add up all the bets you placed or edited (whether matched, cancelled or lapsed). If this number is in excess of 1000 in any hour of the day then: i) for customers placing bets through the Application Programmers Interface (API), we will multiply this number by 1p; andii) for website customers, we will multiply this number by 2p.



For the purpose of Transaction Charges, bets on financial markets will count as 0.25 of a bet. This will form the basis of the transaction fee, but we will offset this fee against the following amount:

(Commission + Implied Commission) ÷ 2

where

Implied Commission = market losses x 3%

Any remaining amount will be charged to your account on a daily basis. Should your (commission + implied commission) ÷ 2 exceed this amount, you will not be charged a transaction fee. Accounts that relate to one person, entity, API subscription or a Master account (Trading version only) with related Sub accounts are treated as one customer for the purposes of transaction charging. Note that no Betfair points will accrue for transaction fees.

Example 1:
You are an API user who pays (commission + implied commission) ÷ 2 of £18.50 throughout a given day.
However, between the hours of 14:00 and 15:00 you placed 2500 bets and between the hours of 15:00 and 16:00 you placed 3250 bets, but in other hours you placed less than 1000 bets.
Your base transaction charge is (2500-1000)*£0.01 + (3250-1000)*£0.01 = £37.50.
Therefore you will be billed an additional £37.50-£18.50 = £19.00 on the following day.

Example 2:
You are a Website user who pays (commission + implied commission) ÷ 2 of £20.00 throughout a given day.
However, between the hours of 14:00 and 15:00 you placed 3000 bets on financial markets and 1500 bets on non financial markets. In all other hours you placed less than 1000 bets on all markets.
Your base transaction charge is (((3000*0.25) + 1500)-1000)*£0.02 = £25.00.
Therefore you will be billed an additional £25.00-£20.00 = £5.00 on the following day

Foolish Pleasure
08-28-2010, 08:06 PM
Thanks for posting exactly what I posted.

The obvious bot fee.
Humans don't post 1000 bets an hour.


The premium fee has nothing to do with bots.

Charlie D
08-28-2010, 08:34 PM
I will repeat once more, because you certainly need some from what i have been reading.

EDUCATE YOURSELF