BRIS Products

[Storm Cadet]

Looking at the BRIS voting in the Pace question of the week, I was wondering..."WHAT product do most of the handicappers use or purchase from Bris?"

I switched over to Bris 2 years ago from DRF online, because of the extra info they give in their Ultimate PP with comments sheets. I've done worse with them than DRF (maybe too much info, paralysis by analysis???) I don't know, but my ROI is definitely lower.

Thanks in advance!

[sq764]

The only Bris products I use are the free offers.. Because everything else is crap

[JustMissed]

My son and I have been using the TSN Ultimate PP's w/comments for about a year.

We play Mountaineer 4 or 5 nights a week and Tampa Bay Downs live racing.

JustMissed

[mhrussell]

I've been using their Premium Plus PPs for the past 3 years and have done well. I mainly use their pace/speed figures in my Handicapping Magic approach.

Betting decisions made by the numbers and the odds; didn't like the Ultimates because, yes, too much information to consider often pointed back to the chalk...and made things confusing.

To the poster above, why do you think the BRIS products are "crap"?
Which ones did you use and what did you hate about them?

[sq764]

They are 'crap' because they offer very little unique data. They recycle the same information and theory and tweak it into another 'new product'..

Also, I found many errors in their daily data.

[cj]

I don't like using BRIS for one reason. They are secretive about how there pace and speed numbers are made. At least with the Beyer's, I know what I'm getting and how to work with them. I've never been able to get this info from BRIS.

[Trijack]

I use Always. I think its great.

[Speed Figure]

I love bris products, I only use the $1 software pp's. They can be secretive about how they make there figures all they want but, i know how they make there numbers. :p

[cj]

I also know they aren't very good.

[Speed Figure]

It was nice to see the top bris speed horse vaild video pay $17.60.

[sq764]

Trijack, I wonder how someone can buy those $14 data files for All-ways... Is it really worth it??

[cj]

Originally posted by speed figure
It was nice to see the top bris speed horse vaild video pay $17.60.

He was just about everyone else's top figure too! What does that mean? Charasmatic was eveyone's top figure, so was War Emblem, and Funny Cide for many. I am sure there final time ratings are similiar most others.

I used BRIS for quite some time, and the "pace" ratings just didn't make sense most times. They are pure garbage. That is what I was referring to, should have been clearer.

[bettheoverlay]

I use the Bris Prime Power #s and basically look for one of the top 3 numbers going off at 6/1 or better. I don't bet them slavishly, but if the horse fits on speed, and is in good form, its usually a good bet.

Yesterday at Saratoga:

Race 3. Stage Show 3-5
Fisher Pond 5-2
Spanish Spur 8-1 W $19.20

Race 7 Crete 7-1 W $16.00
Fosters Landing 3-1
Catchy Word 3-1

Race 9 Gold Mover 9-1
Harmony Hall 13-1 $27.80
You 7-2

I had all three of those winners, and a couple of good ones Saturday including Valid Video who was second in PPs. This is not a typical day but I have had a few others like them this summer.

I realize that these PP #s if put through a rigorous computer study would probably come up deficient compared to the sophisticated computer programs it seems many of the posters on this site use. All I know is they sure have helped me.

[bettheoverlay]

Originally posted by cjmilkowski


I used BRIS for quite some time, and the "pace" ratings just didn't make sense most times. They are pure garbage. That is what I was referring to, should have been clearer. [/B]

I agree that the BRIS pace figures are hard to comprehend sometimes. But my decision to bet Harmony Hall yesterday was greatly reinforced by her having the highest early pace figures out of her Calder race. I'm sure that wasn't unique to BRIS, but those were the figures I was looking at.

[cj]

My numbers from the race yesterday:

The winner runs her best numbers at 7f, certainly was worth a bet, but I wasn't playing Saratoga yesterday. Curious what the BRIS numbers looked like if anyone has them.

2:YELL-Ky:10-1:S

Distance 1:0-0-1 Track 0:0-0-0
J-DAY-P ( 85- 13- 13- 14-0.15) ( 691-133-0.19)
T-McGaughey-Claude--III ( 22- 3- 5- 5-0.14) ( 172- 32-0.19)

Bel 07/19/2003 12.0 3 Dfst Close-up--tired No par 76| `78`
Bel 06/28/2003 9.0 3 Dfst Good-finish-outside 97 98 94 91| 94
CD 05/02/2003 9.0 6 Dfst Bmp-ck-sharply-early 112 99 107 95| 102
Kee 04/05/2003 8.5 1 Dfst 4w-empty-in-drive 93 113 86 100| 99
GP 02/23/2003 8.5 4 Dfst 3-wide--drew-off 104 96 101 96| 99
GP 01/16/2003 8.3 5 Dfst All-out--prevailed 67 84 66 84| 79
Aqu 11/29/2002 8.0 2 Dfst Carried-out--brushed 92 93 89 93| 94
Aqu 11/08/2002 7.0 1 Dfst Good-finish-outside 68 78 65 74| 73

3:WILLA-ON-THE-MOVE-Md:9-2:PS

Distance 1:1-0-0 Track 1:1-0-0
J-ALBARADO-R-J ( 53- 4- 8- 11-0.08) ( 868-144-0.17)
T-Dutrow-Anthony-W ( 10- 2- 3- 2-0.20) ( 171- 52-0.30)

Sar 08/01/2003 6.0 6 Dsly 3-wide-move--gamely 99 105 93 105| 101
Bel 06/27/2003 6.0 2 Dfst Drifted-in--out--brush 100 105 98 105| 105
Aqu 11/29/2002 8.0 4 Dfst Forced-pace--tired 99 101 98 87| 91
Lrl 11/02/2002 7.0 3 Dfst 3wd--ridden-out 106 105 102 105| 105
Crc 07/13/2002 6.0 7 Dfst b Checked-st--lost-whip 102 102 93 85| 87
Bel 06/07/2002 8.0 3 Dwf Bumped-start--gamely 102 93 101 83| 92
Pim 05/16/2002 6.0 2 Dfst 4wd--closed-gamely 101 98 94 95| 95
Del 05/06/2002 6.0 6 Dfst Pace-ducked-in-widened 89 86 89 86| 88
Lrl 02/28/2002 6.0 10 Dfst 3wd-quikly-clr-driving 83 86 82 86| 86

4:SMOK'N-FROLIC-Fla:4-1:P

Distance 1:0-1-0 Track 4:0-1-1
J-VELAZQUEZ-J-R ( 162- 48- 19- 25-0.30) ( 872-219-0.25)
T-Pletcher-Todd-A ( 93- 30- 10- 16-0.32) ( 534-135-0.25)

Sar 08/01/2003 6.0 2 Dsly Gamely-between-rivals 99 105 92 104| 102
Bel 06/21/2003 8.5 5 Dsly Chased-3-wide--tired 107 110 105 94| 98
Bel 05/17/2003 8.0 2 Dfst Led-between-calls 102 104 102 98| 100
Aqu 04/19/2003 8.0 2 Dfst Game-finish-outside 82 99 81 99| 93
Aqu 03/23/2003 9.0 4 Dfst Dictated-pace--clear 102 95 102 95| 99
GP 03/01/2003 9.0 4 Dfst Off-rail--no-match 95 97 91 87| 89
SA 01/25/2003 8.5 7 Dfst Came-out-str-bid-clear 104 91 98 91| 94
Pha 10/05/2002 8.5 4 Dfst Wide--drew-clear No par 97| `97`
Sar 08/17/2002 10.0 4 Dgd Chased-inside--tired 97 99 95 86| 90
Sar 07/29/2002 8.5 4 Tfm Set-pace--tired 102 94 102 90| 97t

1:STELLAR-Va:4-1:P

Distance 3:1-0-1 Track 4:2-1-0
J-FARINA-T ( 17- 2- 0- 3-0.12) ( 108- 16-0.15)
T-Biancone-Patrick-L ( 14- 3- 1- 2-0.21) ( 83- 15-0.18)

Sar 08/03/2003 7.0 3 Dfst Vied-inside--clear 91 88 91 88| 91
CD 04/30/2003 7.0 6 Dfst b Bmp-start-weaken 99 86 99 79| 91
Sar 08/30/2002 7.0 12 Dgd b Came-wide--no-rally 105 94 96 86| 94
Sar 08/12/2002 6.5 2 Dfst b Game-finish-outside 95 90 90 88| 91
Sar 07/28/2002 6.5 2 Dfst b 3-wide-move--driving 90 84 79 84| 85

5:SHINE-AGAIN-Md:3-1:P

Distance 4:4-0-0 Track 5:2-2-0
J-SANTOS-J-A ( 101- 11- 19- 16-0.11) ( 857-130-0.15)
T-Jerkens-H-Allen ( 26- 5- 5- 5-0.19) ( 233- 57-0.24)

Sar 08/01/2003 6.0 5 Dsly Pressed-pace--gamely 99 105 98 104| 101
Bel 06/08/2003 6.5 1 Dmy Game-finish-outside 88 105 84 102| 99
Bel 05/11/2003 6.0 2 Dfst Drew-away-late--fog 107 104 103 104| 104
Aqu 04/19/2003 6.0 4 Dfst Shown-whip-stretch 99 97 95 97| 98
Aqu 10/26/2002 7.0 3 Dsly Got-through-on-rail 102 103 97 103| 100
Bel 10/06/2002 6.5 5 Dfst 4-wide-move--gamely 105 100 100 97| 97
Bel 09/14/2002 8.5 2 Dfst Inside-trip--no-rally 119 108 116 102| 104
Sar 08/25/2002 7.0 3 Dfst Resolute--in-time 124 106 121 106| 109
Sar 08/02/2002 6.0 1 Dsly Came-wide--gamely 97 105 96 102| 98
Bel 07/17/2002 6.0 1 Dfst When-ready--ridden-out 73 88 72 88| 83

1A:GOLD-MOVER-Ky:4-1:EP

Distance 9:3-5-0 Track 2:1-0-0
J-COA-E-M ( 81- 11- 9- 10-0.14) ( 946-153-0.16)
T-Hennig-Mark ( 39- 6- 7- 6-0.15) ( 336- 55-0.16)

Crc 07/12/2003 6.0 3 Dfst All-out--edged-rival 107 94 102 94| 98
Bel 06/08/2003 6.5 3 Dmy Wide--no-response 88 105 84 96| 92
CD 05/03/2003 7.0 1 Dfst 5w-bid-all-out 106 106 102 98| 100
GP 03/16/2003 6.5 4 Dfst Vied-inside--drew-away 107 102 107 102| 104
GP 02/14/2003 7.0 1 Dfst Inside--no-late-gain 107 105 99 99| 99
AP 10/26/2002 7.0 1 Dmy 3-wide--ridden-out 123 99 120 99| 106
Bel 09/14/2002 6.0 3 Dfst Game-finish-for-place 104 106 99 102| 101
Sar 08/02/2002 6.0 2 Dsly Came-wide--no-response 97 105 91 94| 93
Crc 07/13/2002 6.0 4 Dfst 3-wide--up-late 116 110 111 110| 109
Bel 06/09/2002 6.5 3 Dfst Game-finish-outside 105 99 99 98| 97

6:YOU-Ky:7-2:P

Distance 3:1-1-0 Track 3:2-0-1
J-CASTELLANO-J-J ( 81- 7- 12- 11-0.09) ( 771-107-0.14)
T-Frankel-Robert ( 20- 6- 5- 4-0.30) ( 259- 85-0.33)

Hol 07/13/2003 7.0 1 Dfst Came-out-game-for-2nd 99 103 90 101| 99
CD 06/14/2003 9.0 2 Dfst 4w-stiff-drive-clear 98 101 97 101| 99
Bel 05/17/2003 8.0 1 Dfst Set-pace--tired 102 104 102 97| 99
CD 05/02/2003 8.5 2 Dfst Dueled-drew-off-drvg 109 89 108 89| 96
SA 02/16/2003 8.5 5 Dgd Re-bid-3wd-held-2nd 101 103 100 97| 97
SA 12/28/2002 7.0 1 Dfst Inside-duel-weakened 111 95 111 87| 97
Kee 10/06/2002 9.0 5 Dfst Pace-no-match-2ndbest 110 108 110 105| 108
Bel 09/14/2002 8.5 3 Dfst Stayed-on-for-place 119 108 119 105| 111
Sar 08/17/2002 10.0 6 Dgd Inside-run-second-turn 97 99 95 95| 95
Sar 07/27/2002 7.0 2 Dfst Tough-trip--prevailed 130 99 120 99| 103

7:HARMONY-LODGE-Ky:8-1:EP

Distance 4:2-0-0 Track 3:2-0-0
J-MIGLIORE-R ( 101- 11- 10- 18-0.11) ( 638-120-0.19)
T-Pletcher-Todd-A ( 93- 30- 10- 16-0.32) ( 534-135-0.25)

Crc 07/12/2003 6.0 2 Dfst Inside--gave-way 107 94 107 86| 96
WO 06/22/2003 7.0 1 Dfst Came-thru--drew-off No par 105| `105`
Bel 05/11/2003 6.0 1 Dfst Stubborn--fog 107 104 105 94| 98
GP 03/16/2003 6.5 5 Dfst Vied--weakened 107 102 107 96| 101
GP 02/14/2003 7.0 2 Dfst Inside--drew-clear 107 105 107 105| 106
GP 01/12/2003 6.0 7 Dfst 4-wide--edged-away 102 96 102 96| 98
AP 10/26/2002 7.0 4 Dmy Tired 123 99 123 77| 86
Bel 10/06/2002 6.5 4 Dfst Between-rivals--tired 105 100 105 88| 96
Sar 08/29/2002 6.0 1 Dsly Kept-to-drive 84 104 84 104| 96
Med 09/28/2001 5.0 3 Tfm Inside-empty-late Dash Race 63| `63t`

[Tom]

That is an angle I "l-o-v-e" to find: a horse who runs superior numbers at a certain distance or surface. The 7 furlong prefernece is nice becasue it is hidden amoungst the 6 furlong races.
Every year, I find a few really nice hits with horses that love the one-turn routes at AQU and hate the two-turn inner ones.
Believe it or not, you get this type oif thing a LOT at Finger LAkes between 5.5 and 6.0 furlong races-6.0 furlongs is a marathon for some horses. Early in the year, you get the 4.5-5.0 furlong specialists-now that Formulator offers lifetime PPs (whenever DRF is open for business-hehehehe) you can find these horses well meant for today's race.

[Zaf]

Originally posted by bettheoverlay
I use the Bris Prime Power #s and basically look for one of the top 3 numbers going off at 6/1 or better. I don't bet them slavishly, but if the horse fits on speed, and is in good form, its usually a good bet.

Yesterday at Saratoga:

Race 3. Stage Show 3-5
Fisher Pond 5-2
Spanish Spur 8-1 W $19.20

Race 7 Crete 7-1 W $16.00
Fosters Landing 3-1
Catchy Word 3-1

Race 9 Gold Mover 9-1
Harmony Hall 13-1 $27.80
You 7-2

I had all three of those winners, and a couple of good ones Saturday including Valid Video who was second in PPs. This is not a typical day but I have had a few others like them this summer.

I realize that these PP #s if put through a rigorous computer study would probably come up deficient compared to the sophisticated computer programs it seems many of the posters on this site use. All I know is they sure have helped me.


Can any of you Database guys run a query ? ROI on Top 3 Prime Power who go postward at 6-1 or better.

Thanks ,

ZAFONIC

[VetScratch]

BRIS/TSN offer freebies to attract new memberships, but existing members also are eligible for freebies. Because BRIS/TSN are so popular, when they offer freebies for their tout sheets, I would imagine that they influence odds at middle/small tracks. This should produce some premium plays for good handicappers who know really know these tracks and also know what the freebies are touting.

[John]

ZAFONIC

I don't think you are going to like what the Data Boys give you.

[VetScratch]

SQ764,
The only Bris products I use are the free offers.. Because everything else is crapThat's an interesting theory... I wonder if anyone has tracked the performance of BRIS products to see if they work better on days when they are free. :) :)

[Zaf]

Originally posted by rocajack
ZAFONIC

I don't think you are going to like what the Data Boys give you.


Just curious.

ZAFONIC

[Jeff P]

Here's what I have for all races (turf, dirt, sprints, routes) for the year 2002 ranked by prime power when the final odds were 6.00-1 or higher.
Very interesting is that the top prime power horse is actually quite profitable with very few plays.

Bris Prime Power-

Rank:1 Roi:26.67 Wins:42 Plays:288 Pct:.1458
Rank:2 Roi:-33.04 Wins:76 Plays:1050 Pct:.0724
Rank:3 Roi:-4.74 Wins:192 Plays:2103 Pct:.0913
Rank:4 Roi:-22.88 Wins:203 Plays:3036 Pct:.0669
Rank:5 Roi:-24.70 Wins:219 Plays:3767 Pct:.0581

The races span the entire year for NYRA, Florida, Chicago, Kentucky, Northern Cal, Southern Cal, and AZ and were run primarily on weekends.

I wrestled with sharing this at first. In the end I decided to post it anyway because the overlays I bet are very seldom the top prime power horse.

[JustRalph]

I agree with you on Bris stuff.....off the cuff...just looking at the numbers. But....(you knew that was coming) using Equisim I find the Bris stuff to be great. I can run formulator from DRF and do ok with it. In fact I do ok with just a paper DRF too. But, using Equisim and the Bris Data together I do much better. So I will keep buying it....... if were not for the software...... I probably wouldn't ...........

[Zaf]

Jeff, Thanks for the stats.

Ralph, what kind of Bris files do you run with Equisim ?

ZAFONIC

[azibuck]

I finally settled on Bris this year (Ultimate PP's with Comments). Having a good year so far. But I like your figs better. If I paid you $3 per track/day, would you sell me your figs?

Seriously.

az

[cj]

netc,

Never really thought about it. I've been giving them away to a few guys from the board. Contact me in private, email preferably. I'll send you what I use for free, but I can't guarentee anything past December once I move to Belgium.

ps...my stuff is geared towards Formulator files and the Beyers

[Storm Cadet]

Ralph,

What is Equisim, your program or a commercial product available from BRIS or another source???

SC

[turfspec]

Are BRIS numbers the best available? Not hardly. Are they "crap"? Also not hardly. Made my own numbers from '71 thru the late 80's when it became just too much work and I didn't have enough time to actually analyze the races. Switched to BRIS and continued to win after a short learning period. Using BRIS PP's exclusively - ROI for 2001 36%, 2002 28%.

I make a proprietary number dependent on UnModified BRIS pace numbers. To eliminate personal bias I gave the method to a friend of mine and asked him to apply it mechanically with NO other handicapping involved to all races he handicapped when attending the simulcasts in 2002. He did 129 Turf Rtes, 206 Dirt Rtes. and 326 Dirt Spts. Here are the overall results:

Top Rater - 187/661 - 28.3 W%
2nd Rater - 108/661 - 16.3 W%
3rd Rater - 102/661 - 15.4 W%
Top 3 - 397/661 - 60 W% from Top 3
Avg. Mutuel - $7.75
ROI - 9.6%

Not too shabby for "crap"!

BTW have you noticed that in all routes in the BRIS Pars, E2 is equal to the Speed Fig Par? Now that's Crap.

[VetScratch]

Turfspec,
BTW have you noticed that in all routes in the BRIS Pars, E2 is equal to the Speed Fig Par?Yes, I noticed this a while back because the fields in question are adjacent to one another in premium software downloads... looks like a rather obvious software bug when BRIS builds the download records for routes.

I don't know what other downloads may have been affected, so maybe users of each type should report this error if it appears when they use the Custom PP Generator.

Another observation is that what appears for par E2 pace in the PP Generator is not what is defined for the data field in the Handicappers Library. The file specifications say that the "par E2" (field #1137) is actually the par 6f pace, which is NOT always E2 in the way BRIS defines pace figures for all route distances (as also defined in the Handicappers Library).

[formula_2002]

Bris power rating=1, min odds 6-1

1289 plays returned a loss of 7 1/2% .

Barry Meadow published an analysis of the Bris Power ratings that I prepared in a recent news letter. You may want to check it out.

I have to give credit to Bris for producing a factor that can beat the takeout by this much.

Joe M

[Zaf]

Originally posted by formula_2002
Bris power rating=1, min odds 6-1

1289 plays returned a loss of 7 1/2% .

Barry Meadow published an analysis of the Bris Power ratings that I prepared in a recent news letter. You may want to check it out.

I have to give credit to Bris for producing a factor that can beat the takeout by this much.

Joe M

Credit to Bris.
I have to agree, just mechanically betting the factor described above will beat the takeout. Thats not easy to do.

ZAFONIC

[formula_2002]

Originally posted by zafonic
Credit to Bris.
I have to agree, just mechanically betting the factor described above will beat the takeout. Thats not easy to do.

ZAFONIC
Actuall, there are single bris factors that perform even better.

One such factor;
in 6376 plays, odds>=6-1, all distances, all race types, all surfaces, all everything. 1% loss

533 actual winners compared to 547 expected winners for
for an a/e ratio of .974. (almost as good as the craps vig)
(1= break even)

Joe M

[VetScratch]

Originally posted by VetScratch
Turfspec,
Yes, I noticed this a while back because the fields in question are adjacent to one another in premium software downloads... looks like a rather obvious software bug when BRIS builds the download records for routes.

I don't know what other downloads may have been affected, so maybe users of each type should report this error if it appears when they use the Custom PP Generator.

Another observation is that what appears for par E2 pace in the PP Generator is not what is defined for the data field in the Handicappers Library. The file specifications say that the "par E2" (field #1137) is actually the par 6f pace, which is NOT always E2 in the way BRIS defines pace figures for all route distances (as also defined in the Handicappers Library). After looking at some longer routes, 10f and up, it appears that BRIS does put the correct par E2 pace number in the field documented as par 6f pace, so the way the file specifications were literally written was the source of my confusion.

[turfspec]

VetScratch,

If it is a software bug, it appears in every download I've ever made, including PP Gen and from time to time random free reports. This has been going on since they started publishing the Pars in their reports. I've spoken to them several times and friends that I've mentioned this to have also called without getting a straight answer or any remedy. They say it is, "just the way we get our ratings". Doesn't make sense to me. Guess they do sprints differently?

I don't use the speed figures but I do use the E2 par in the making of the number I reported above. Doesn't SEEM to make too much of a difference but still.... Just think if the numbers weren't "crap".

Rob

[VetScratch]

Now that I see they don't really mean that it's 6f, and that it is E2, I am not so sure it is an error.

The way I understand it is that for each route par classification, they use the par speed figure to scale the par E2, which makes them equal, whether E2 is for 6f, 8f, or 10f.

So if the par E2 is 96 and the leader's E2 is 100, the pace is 4 fast at the 2nd call.


DISTANCES E1 Pace E2 Pace
12f & Up Start-To-8f Start-To-10f
10f & Up Start-To-6f Start-To-8f
8f & Up Start-To-4f Start-To-6f
5.5f & Up Start-To-2f Start-To-4f
Under 5.5f None Start-To-2f

[Trijack]

Top Prime Power won races 2 thru 6 today. Had 2 of those winners on top in two tri's I played today but in both tri's did not have 3rd horse I am now 1 for 7 in my tri bets here.

[formula_2002]

TJ.. 9TH 1,3,4,9
just a casual pick for something i've been working on all day(lol)


JOE M

[cj]

Joe,

Glad to see you are back...we don't always see eye to eye, but you definitely make this a more interesting place.