Is Cigars streak different than Zens?

[tzipi]

Yes,one has 18 in a row and one won 16 in a row. We know that. Here's my point. I see on a ton of threads that Zens connections do not have to travel anywhere to competition because they won the BC Classic and beat everyone, meaning the streak. Some say everyone should come to them and the poly. But didn't Cigar win the BC Classic and then travel to Fla and then to DUBAI,and everywhere else? Was Mott dumb to do this,was Mott suppose to sit back? Was Cigars competition and streak a farce? Cigar also won HOY. Curlin traveled after winning the BCC,like many other winners before him did.

I guess my point is Cigar seems to be lost in this new world of race set-ups and it shocks me a bit considering what he did as did many others. So many posts of well a horse like this,with her history with what she's done(streak) and being BCC champ doesn't have travel. Did Cigars connections overachieve?

P.S. Maybe some people posting just started watching racing and don't know alot of racings past history(like Cigars),which is ok then. But if you do,I'm a shocked. Saying no one like Zen and what's she's done has to travel. So Cigars career,streak and competiton was way under hers then? JMO. Rip away now :D

[bisket]

apples annd oranges. paulson knew he was close to the end of his life, and spared the interest in the future. also it was known that cigar would have fertility problems when he was retired. so it was negligible he had any value at stud..... rookie :kiss: :p

[bigmack]

I'll have to have my niese assemble a highlight reel of Cigar like she did for Z, with special thanks to PartyManners.

Certainly no shortage of exhilaration with Z's wins:

PyD0MPFLy50

[tzipi]

apples annd oranges. paulson knew he was close to the end of his life, and spared the interest in the future. also it was known that cigar would have fertility problems when he was retired. so it was negligible he had any value at stud..... rookie :kiss: :p

I'm the "rookie :p "? You just don't know your history Bisket and it shows everywhere.


Didn't Paulson die like 5 years later after Cigar retired? :rolleyes: You knew this Bisket? Also, what's that got to do with running him all over in top races like he did? Didn't he do this with all his other good horses too way before he died. Wow, good job with that excuse Bisket. :p

http://www.nydailynews.com/archives/sports/1997/03/06/1997-03-06_cigar_may_return__proves_dud.html

Oh they knew he was infertile at his retirement Bisket? So he was sold for millions and the farm and Paulson were "shocked" to find out he was. I thought they knew? The farm said this is common with first year stallions after he didn't cover the mares right away and that they would continue breeding him for now. Yup,they knew he was infertile Bisket :rolleyes:

God,your posts get dumber and dumber Bisket.

[bisket]

I'm the "rookie"? You just don't know your history Bisket and it shows everywhere.


Didn't Paulson die like 5 years later after Cigar retired? Close to death? You knew this Bisket? :lol: Also, what's that got to do with running him all over in top races like he did? Didn't he do this with all his other good horses too way before he died. Wow, good job with that excuse Bisket.

http://www.nydailynews.com/archives/sports/1997/03/06/1997-03-06_cigar_may_return__proves_dud.html

Oh they knew he was infertile at his retirement Bisket? So he was sold for millions and the farm and Paulson were "shocked" to find out he was. I thought they knew? The farm said this is common with first year stallions after he didn't cover the mares right away and that they would continue breeding him for now. Yup,they knew he was infertile Bisket :rolleyes:

"Rookie"? God,your posts get dumber and dumber.
they discovered he was sterile while he was running. he had to be tested for insurance coverage. it makes a big difference in the value of the horse when it comes to insurance.

[born2ride]

they discovered he was sterile while he was running. he had to be tested for insurance coverage. it makes a big difference in the value of the horse when it comes to insurance.

Prove it. Anything less and it'll be more stuff you're pulling from your a@@ and calling fact.

[tzipi]

they discovered he was sterile while he was running. he had to be tested for insurance coverage. it makes a big difference in the value of the horse when it comes to insurance.

Again, Paulson died 5 years later after Cigar retired. You didn't explain how you knew he was close to death in 1995(died 2000) and why he ran all the place with his horses way before he was "close to death". :rolleyes:
"Tested Sterile while running". So they bought him for millions and they were all "shocked" to find out he got no one pregnant and continued to breed him as they thought it might be because he was a first year stallion. He covered 34 mares. So you knew he was tested while still running??

Goodnight Bisket. You have made youself look even dumber. :lol:

[bigmack]

they discovered he was sterile while he was running.
Do tell.

[Sericm]

What's the point of another thread on Zenyatta's streak?

Comparing it to Cigars is like comparing apples to oranges.

Mott and Paulson picked some pretty easy races for Cigar just like Zen's connections do. (This is not to say they were all easy so don't misinterpet what I'm saying.) Also there were no synthetic tracks when Cigar was racing.

Cigar's campaign was thrilling and let's face it only ended when Bailey gave him a dumb-ass ride.

It isn't the level of competition its a matter of whether your horse is fit enough and feels like giving his or her best and gets a smart ride.

[tzipi]

What's the point of another thread on Zenyatta's streak?

Comparing it to Cigars is like comparing apples to oranges.

Mott and Paulson picked some pretty easy races for Cigar just like Zen's connections do. (This is not to say they were all easy so don't misinterpet what I'm saying.) Also there were no synthetic tracks when Cigar was racing.

It's NOT a thread about that. It's about the streaks and how Cigars is over looked a bit IMO. That's all. Geez,its like you can't put Zens name in a thread. I was wondering why it's overlooked on many posts. I didn't say anywhere Cigar should have the streak or named his competitors compared to hers,etc or than Zen should. I just asked a question about why Cigars streak gets overlooked a bit. His connections did alot with him. Hey only TWO horses can claim the high recent streaks. I can't be knocking Cigar or Zen? :D
But I will say I don't think Cigars connections picked some "pretty easy spots",like you say. Maybe the Mass Cap was easy. I'll agree there. Also agree with you that Bailey gave a bad ride out in California.

[tzipi]

P.S. Everyone should enjoy whatever streak they loved. Both are great. Hey,enjoy both. Again,I didn't come here and compare the horses careers or streaks as non-existent nor did I:
List races
Opponents by name
Graded win career of their opponents,etc
Just asking why there seems to be new rules for some top horses in todays racing and why BCC became the new racing champion race which changes a horses whereabouts of running. It used to be different. That's all. Cigar seems overlooked during this time in racing with the streak. Maybe it's just me and how I see the posts about the streak compared to others in history. If Pace Ad or any moderator is tired of Zen posts or thinks this thread is pointless/adds to problems or should be moved,that's totally cool with me. :ThmbUp:

[letswastemoney]

All of Cigar's races were tougher than Zenyatta's.

You won't fool any smart horseplayer to believe that horses like Soul of the Matter, Concern, Unbridled's Song, Best Pal, Holy Bull, Heavenly Prize, Wekiva Springs, Dare And Go, Siphon were less horses than Dance To My Tune, Rinterval, St. Trinians. Nearly all of the races in Cigar's streak came in G1 competition, and even if they weren't G1 (like the Citation Challenge), they were still open competition and around the country (plus Dubai).

The only comparable race Zenyatta has is the BC Classic.

[Dahoss9698]

Goodnight Bisket. You have made youself look even dumber. :lol:

Impossible...

[DeanT]

All of Cigar's races were tougher than Zenyatta's.

You won't fool any smart horseplayer to believe that horses like Soul of the Matter, Concern, Unbridled's Song, Best Pal, Holy Bull, Heavenly Prize, Wekiva Springs, Dare And Go, Siphon were less horses than Dance To My Tune, Rinterval, St. Trinians. Nearly all of the races in Cigar's streak came in G1 competition, and even if they weren't G1 (like the Citation Challenge), they were still open competition and around the country (plus Dubai).

The only comparable race Zenyatta has is the BC Classic.


I hope his races were tougher. He was a male.

[depalma113]

they discovered he was sterile while he was running. he had to be tested for insurance coverage. it makes a big difference in the value of the horse when it comes to insurance.

You have absolutely no idea about what you are talking about.

[Jasonm921]

You have absolutely no idea about what you are talking about.

I second Depalma's statement.

[Bruiser1]

All of Cigar's races were tougher than Zenyatta's.

You won't fool any smart horseplayer to believe that horses like Soul of the Matter, Concern, Unbridled's Song, Best Pal, Holy Bull, Heavenly Prize, Wekiva Springs, Dare And Go, Siphon were less horses than Dance To My Tune, Rinterval, St. Trinians. Nearly all of the races in Cigar's streak came in G1 competition, and even if they weren't G1 (like the Citation Challenge), they were still open competition and around the country (plus Dubai).

The only comparable race Zenyatta has is the BC Classic.

Remembering quite well Cigar's streak, like Zenyatta, many of his races were not against the best competition. Regardless, it does take a special horse to compile streaks like these.

[slewis]

Remembering quite well Cigar's streak, like Zenyatta, many of his races were not against the best competition. Regardless, it does take a special horse to compile streaks like these.


Really? Which handicap horses were around that Cigar's connections ducked?

[bisket]

I'm the "rookie :p "? You just don't know your history Bisket and it shows everywhere.


Didn't Paulson die like 5 years later after Cigar retired? :rolleyes: You knew this Bisket? Also, what's that got to do with running him all over in top races like he did? Didn't he do this with all his other good horses too way before he died. Wow, good job with that excuse Bisket. :p

http://www.nydailynews.com/archives/sports/1997/03/06/1997-03-06_cigar_may_return__proves_dud.html

Oh they knew he was infertile at his retirement Bisket? So he was sold for millions and the farm and Paulson were "shocked" to find out he was. I thought they knew? The farm said this is common with first year stallions after he didn't cover the mares right away and that they would continue breeding him for now. Yup,they knew he was infertile Bisket :rolleyes:

God,your posts get dumber and dumber Bisket.
you are correct. i forgot more than you know....

maybe one of these sporting trainers from new york and kentucky will be sporting enough to come to cali and race zen in the zenyatta stakes

[Bruiser1]

Really? Which handicap horses were around that Cigar's connections ducked?

I didn't say he ducked anybody. I think it was a combination of good race management and others ducking him.

For any thoroughbred to put together that many consecutive wins is a tribute to the animal and the human connections.

[OntheRail]

you are correct. i forgot more than you know....

maybe one of these sporting trainers from new york and kentucky will be sporting enough to come to cali and race zen in the zenyatta stakes
Why would they fly in to run in a State that has a dodgy surface by their own admission. And the only reason anyone shipped in to run on it was the BC was run there two years in a row... ;) Maybe after SA goes back to dirt we'll see some shippers on a regular basis. What happens to Zenyatta's legacy when the surface she run on is in the land fill and she finishes behind others in the BC this year.

[CincyHorseplayer]

I have no idea.While I know the history of the sport I think both are great in their endeavors.I guess it's a valid question but who gives a $hit??Both good horses.

I look at it like this.I was born in 1973 when Secretariat destroyed the Triple Crown and was the first to do so since Citation in 1948.When I got into racing in 1996 Cigar was reeling off his greatness,first horse since Citation.2 good omens for sure!!!My horseplayer destiny has been riddled with good hits since.I feel blessed by both Zen's and Cigar's presence.This game is awesome.;)

But Jesus H,enjoy each for what it is you salty dogs.

[tzipi]

you are correct. i forgot more than you know....

maybe one of these sporting trainers from new york and kentucky will be sporting enough to come to cali and race zen in the zenyatta stakes

If it was dirt,they probably would,as even running in the top spots makes you money. But it's poly and many top dirt horses stay away from it. Gee,isnt the talk that they going back to dirt out there? So staying in California and running against lower competition is what happens. Tons of BBC and HOY traveled all over. But you don't read posts or know much because I mean LOOK at your posts here....

You said you knew Allen Paulson was on deaths bed(died 2000) while Cigar was running so that's why they traveled. :rolleyes:
Then you claimed to know that the connections and farm knew Cigar was sterile while he was still running. :eek:

You just ignore everyones posts about how ridiculous you are on this board and proof to back up your insane claims. It shows alot.

[Robert Goren]

The difference is Zenyatta's began with her first race.

[joanied]

The difference is Zenyatta's began with her first race.

Excellent point:ThmbUp: ...and the other difference, IMO, is that Paulson was a true sportsman and Moss should be ashamed of himself if he thinks he's one too...he did the sportsman like thing to keep Z racing, but...well, 'uff said.

[classhandicapper]

I'm surprised Ghostzapper gets such a free pass in these discussions even though he didn't have a huge winning streak.

No modern all time great that I can recall had an easier series of races and/or lighter schedule than Ghostzapper. Other than his race against St Liam where he won by a neck (and St Liam still may not of hit his best stride yet) and the Classic where he controlled the pace from the rail (albeit in on of the best Classic fields of all time), he was babied and spotted carefully by Bobby Frankel every step of the way.

[keithw84]

During his streak, Cigar ran at 9 tracks: Aqueduct, Gulfstream, Oaklawn, Pimlico, Suffolk, Hollywood, Belmont, Nad Al Sheba, and Arlington. When he was finally defeated, he was trying a 10th track: Del Mar

Zenyatta has run at 4 tracks: Santa Anita, Hollywood, Del Mar, and Oaklawn. We'll see what happens when she tries her 5th in November...

Except for 2 allowance races, all of Cigar's races were against open company.

Only one of Zenyatta's races was against open company, and it was over a surface that many don't want to touch with a ten foot pole.

No, Zenyatta's connections do not have an obligation to run her at more tracks, but if they want to prove how great she is, or even just be sporting, they should run her at more tracks against a wider variety of competition.

I didn't follow the sport when Cigar was running. Were there any top dirt horses at the time who did not take him on?

[classhandicapper]

Cigar had a much more ambitious campaign, but he also drew into a lot of very weak fields along the way (through no fault of his own).

I don't think it's really a valid comparison though.

Cigar came just before the era of the lightly raced horse when 5-8 week spacing etc...became the norm as guys like Pletcher and few others started dominating the trainer standings with that methodology. The other difference is that Cigar was obviously not a filly/mare so comparing the level of competition is borderline hilarious.

Comparing Cigar to the current horses is sort of like comparing Cigar to the horses of the 40s, 50s, 60s etc.. Even though Cigar is more of a modern great, the game has changed even more since then.