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misscashalot
08-16-2010, 09:47 AM
How successful has the use of the ALL button been for you?
Under what circumstances do you use it?

lamboguy
08-16-2010, 10:25 AM
How successful has the use of the ALL button been for you?
Under what circumstances do you use it?the only thing i can tell you about the all button is that is the bigest success for the racetrack. if you have 8 different combinaions and you play alll you have just paid the takeout of all 8 of them. if you are playing a trifecta in philly park and decide to play $1 1-2-ALL and the race has 10 entrants in it you have now paid $2.40 from your $8 better. so your $8 has now turned into $5.60 before they run the race. if you are good enough to overcome that type of a chop, then this is the way you should play.

for me i am not that good so i don't attempt the procedure. maybe there are other people like me out there becasuse i can see that the handles in racetracks are way down. personally i try to stay away from any type of bet where its cost me more than 8% to make it. often times i find bets where the tracks are actually paying me to play them, but that is a horse of a different color that i don't feel like getting into or reccomending to anyone.

Ocala Mike
08-16-2010, 10:31 AM
Remember Al Pacino in Scarface? "Say hello to my little friend" can apply to the ALL button as well!

For those who would rather be lucky than smart, its proper use can result in big hits which are difficult to achieve completely by design.

Of course, now the "purists' will be weighing in with anecdotal evidence of their superior handicapping skills, rendering my two cents not even worth that.

Ocala Mike

Grits
08-16-2010, 10:40 AM
Remember Al Pacino in Scarface? "Say hello to my little friend" can apply to the ALL button as well!

For those who would rather be lucky than smart, its proper use can result in big hits which are difficult to achieve completely by design.

Of course, now the "purists' will be weighing in with anecdotal evidence of their superior handicapping skills, rendering my two cents not even worth that.

Ocala Mike

I think your .02 cents is excellent, OM. I have a couple of friends, here in Saratoga, who use it selectively--in spots they think its fully warranted, cashing very large tickets!!! They back away from it, use it again, only when warranted. They will continue to be playing on NYRA's money for a long, long while. Discipline and selectivity, both, being good options.

Boasting has never put a dime in one's bank accounts. :faint:

TEJAS KIDD
08-16-2010, 11:03 AM
I use the all box when there are no toss outs and the favorite is vulnerable. Otherwise it would be a better play to forget the all and play the shorter exotic multiple times. For instance, instead of playing a 1$ tri 1-2-all that costs 10$, play a 10$ exacta 1-2. You'd be better off in the long run.

goforgin
08-16-2010, 11:15 AM
One time. Redboard alert. Last years Breeder's Cup, one of the Friday races. 8 horses. $336. I liked 2 longshots around 15 to 20-1 if I recall. Went back and forth on wheels and finally decided that I like both so much, hit the TRI All. They came in 2nd and 3rd with a 10-1 on top. Paid around $1,200 - $1,300 for a dollar. Have never came across the same scenario since.

RaceBookJoe
08-16-2010, 11:19 AM
The only time i say "all" is if my key horse is a longshot and i am actually confident about the horse. I use it in exactas and doubles...maybe a pic3 if i have another single or 2-horse try in on of the legs. rbj

JohnGalt1
08-16-2010, 11:28 AM
You are correct.

I used to play AB/AB/all trifectas figuring I'd rather have the tri than the exacta if my two horses finished first and second.

I researched charts for about 100 races with minimum 8 horse fields and found that over 90% if races the exacta box paid more than the tri-- dollar for dollar. That is, with a 9 horse field an AB/AB/all would cost $14 as would a $7 exacta box.

One race I remember, the winner paid about $45, the $1 tri paid about $750. The same money bet on the AB/AB exacta returned about $950.

Do the research your self. Just go DRF and look at as many charts as you want and use the same $12 for an 8 horse field to $24 for 14 horse field and compare the AB/AB/all tri pay offs with the same money exacta pay offs.

I still play tris, but if I only like 2 horses, now I play the exacta.

TEJAS KIDD
08-16-2010, 11:42 AM
Plus takeout is lower in exactas.

JohnGalt1
08-16-2010, 11:45 AM
How successful has the use of the ALL button been for you?
Under what circumstances do you use it?


Being selective, and treating each race individually, is how I approach each race and bet structure.

When someone says I always bet tris AB/ABC/ABCD I suspect they are a loser. What if A is a stand out and what if you believe that any horse can finish third in the race? Maybe that race should be A/BC/all.

I sometimes use the all button--not only in tris but supers, pick 3's, 4's and 6's, bet two horses to win, box, wheel, or whatever it takes to make a profit.

TEJAS KIDD
08-16-2010, 11:52 AM
One time. Redboard alert. Last years Breeder's Cup, one of the Friday races. 8 horses. $336. I liked 2 longshots around 15 to 20-1 if I recall. Went back and forth on wheels and finally decided that I like both so much, hit the TRI All. They came in 2nd and 3rd with a 10-1 on top. Paid around $1,200 - $1,300 for a dollar. Have never came across the same scenario since.


Not understanding your approach here. You boxed the entire field because you liked the 15-1 and 20-1 shots?
You got 4-1 odds on both of them finishing in the money with a 10-1 winning. You got almost the ideal situation with all the bombs in the money and still only got 4-1 odds.
Whats wrong with 1-2/1-2/all and 1-2/all/1-2 and all/1-2/1-2 with a cost of $36 therefore saving yourself $300 that you could have bet to wp on them.

BombsAway Bob
08-16-2010, 02:19 PM
when i feel the top 2 faves are vulnerable in a race of 8 or more,
i often look for plodding longshots that have career marks of:
29 starts= 2 wins, 2 seconds, 8 thirds. Keying them in the 3rd/4th
slot with a "speed & fade" type can often produce Huge payouts.
I treat these "LMSP"s- Last-Minute-Super-Plays (trademark-Dave Weaver)
much like playing a Four-Wheel Dime Video Game, except i can place
two "Wild Bonus" stars on the last 2 reels when i pull!
Biggest Hit So Far - Took half of Super Pool @ Los Al in 2009.
Biggest Miss: Had huge Super posted @ EVG.,only to have my 4th place
horse DQ'd on a Trainer's Objection.
The Sordid Details,
(for me,not objecting trainer who cashed the only Dime ticket)
7th blog story down-
http://www.myspace.com/bobgrant3/blog

InsideThePylons-MW
08-16-2010, 02:43 PM
I use the all box when there are no toss outs and the favorite is vulnerable.

Why would you play all if the fav is vulnerable?

Isn't the vulnerable fav included in the all?

Wouldn't you rather have the extra unit on a live 12-1 rather than the vulnerable fav?

If you want the unit on the vulnerable fav instead of a extra unit on a live 12-1, then you are a poor bettor.

If you understand and still go all, then you are a poor bettor.

So either you shouldn't use the all box when there are no toss outs and the fav is vulnerable or you are a poor bettor.

markgoldie
08-16-2010, 02:53 PM
As a superfecta player, I have looked at this seriously. In the long run, using the all button will kill you. In fact, one of the great keys to success in complex verticals is frugality in ticket construction. Why? Because the amount wagered per ticket becomes crucial over the long run. This is your investment and if you want a reasonable ROI, the "investment" portion of the equation is critical.

Therefore, creative ticket construction which leaves certain horses [/B]out[B] of certain positions is cost-effective. Using key horses and even dual key horses is also a good strategy. That said, once in a blue moon, an "all" punch in a lower position can be called for. But these times are rare.

In sum, the "all" button will get you an occasional score, but in the long run, it will destroy you.

TEJAS KIDD
08-16-2010, 03:08 PM
I didnt say the vulnerable favorite was a toss out. Theres a difference. Vulnerable favorites are runners that figure to lose as underlays. Toss outs are horses that have no chance. Big difference. Believe me, if I'm playing a race with a vulnerable favorite, if he runs in the bottom spot of a tri or super, having that all spot is the least part of my cashing. A majority of my plays would have come in the exactas, or tri's supers without him, The all would only be the hedge.
Example.
I like 5-1,10-1,12-1...No total toss outs in an 8 horse race.
1st bet would be the 3 horse ex box for most of the units.
next bet would be the 3 horse tri box for small units.
then 3rd/4th wagers would be abc with abc with all , abc with all with abc.
may even go further with the abc,abc,abc with all super, and abc abc all abc.

So favorite running 3rd behind 2 of my horses wouldnt matter because I would have crushed the exacta. Vulnerable fav out of the 3rd spot would be great but not hurt me if he was there cause the exacta would be the biggest dividends.


The 1st wager would be to WIN if the price was right and I could settle on a single or 2 horses.
More than likely in the example above I would bet an amount to break even on the longest shot of the 3, then the exactas would be to crush the race, the tris to add to it and the super as well, sometimes, the abc/all/abc tri would be a good save should I not hit the exacta but it would never be my main play. I always start with the easier wager 1st and then work my way down to the more exotic wager.
THE EXAMPLE ABOVE is not how I attack every race, just races where the ALL box is necessary and the prices are right. It's a rare occurance that I have no TOSS outs in a race.

Stillriledup
08-16-2010, 03:16 PM
ALL buttons work much better for people getting rebates. If you're not getting a rebate, not so much. Its better for the non rebated people to really be selective, you can't just be betting on all the combinations in certain slots and expect to survive, the profit margin is so slim that every dollar you wager is extremely important, you can't be tossing dollars away on races that you have 'no opinion'.

(all = no real opinion)

snoadog
08-16-2010, 04:10 PM
Once my brother and I had 7 of 8 buggies in the last leg of the win 4 at our local harness track. Needless to say we lost to the buggy starting from the 8 hole, no less. What did we learn? "If you the best you can do is handicap one horse out of the race, then just pick all" :D

InsideThePylons-MW
08-16-2010, 04:19 PM
"If you the best you can do is handicap one horse out of the race, then just pick all" :D

That's why I used "all" in the Rick's Natural Star BC race.

DeanT
08-16-2010, 04:30 PM
Imo, using he all button is wholly dependent on your style of play and situation. If you are a heavily capitalized bettor, and you are playing supers into a 12 horse field at Keeneland which you label as chaos, you have an edge with it for a monster score.

At MNR with $1 super mins, you also can use it at times with some success. Even at 50 cents it is not bad. if you like a 6-1 shot and think a 12-1 shot can hit the board, you can swing him for $112 with alls, and sometimes walk away with big money, if something wild happens.

If you are playing into a big super high 5 carryover at DMR for example, you can also use it, imo. With a solid key horse, and a couple of swings, your ticket cost can be high using alls, however if you use an all in the second slot and you hit a bomb, you can be the only winner for a life changing score.

Alls can be decent in TC races like the Belmont or Derby as well with dollar super mins. These things can pay, and have paid around $1M.

I believe it is completely dependent on your style of play, bankroll, situation, and pain threshold as a bettor.

speed
08-16-2010, 04:50 PM
That's why I used "all" in the Rick's Natural Star BC race.

not something to brag about

KingChas
08-16-2010, 04:57 PM
I use it in pick-3 & 4's.
My rules..one of the races has a 5 horse field or less,
with a heavy favorite = hit the all button for this race.
Sounds crazy but I have had some luck with it.
Actually reverse single-ing in a sense.
The race most don't spread in.

thaskalos
08-16-2010, 06:28 PM
Regardless of how it is used, the "all" button is seldom a good idea. The high takeout - levied on all the exotic bets - punishes us severely for being wasteful like this...on a regular basis.

Bettors who use the "all" button routinely...do so, because they have "scored" this way in the past.

Alas, the memory of those scores lasts a lot longer than the money...

Hajck Hillstrom
08-16-2010, 06:33 PM
Mark Cramer referenced my use of the now more commonly referenced "Schrupp Button" in his book KINKY HANDICAPPING, in the chapter Lecherous Betting.... From the Red Light District.

When wagering on horses with double-digit odds, I consider using the ALL button in exacta pools when I consider the favorite to be vulnerable. Sometimes you get lucky, and the longest shot on the board comes in with your selection, which has happened for me enough to employ the method with a degree of confidence. Probably the most noted was the `93 Arkansas Derby when I liked Kissin Kris at 15-1 and Rockamundo took a slap in the belly and won the race at odds of 108-1. I punched a $2 exacta wheel and backwheel with Kissin Kris three times, in essence betting $54 to Win and Place on him in the Exacta Pool. The $2 payout in the west coast simulcast pools was $3,500. I could share similar stories I had with Closing Argument in the `05 Derby, and Sarava in the `02 Belmont Stakes, but maybe the most satisfying was when I wheeled a 102-1 shot at Santa Anita named Avoid Penalty back in `92 that paid $4,400 for $2.

The All (Schrupp) Button can be a useful tool when used sparingly.

Trotman
08-16-2010, 06:43 PM
Never ever have I uttered the word all except when I was buying a round of drinks for friends. :)

snoadog
08-16-2010, 07:30 PM
I dunno about the math of it all, but I do know you feel much more of a schmuck having 7 of 8 and losing to the 8th than if you have 3 of 8 and losing to the same 8th.

Zippy Chippy
08-16-2010, 07:45 PM
I think the ALL button is one of the reasons im living in a small apartment. No joke. I live by the all button.. i dont want to have to worry what comes in behind my key horse.

therussmeister
08-16-2010, 08:12 PM
When someone says I always bet tris AB/ABC/ABCD I suspect they are a loser. What if A is a stand out and what if you believe that any horse can finish third in the race? Maybe that race should be A/BC/all.

I have never in my life thought that any horse can finish third in a race, nor in the last four months when I started playing supers regularly have I thought that any horse can finish fourth in a race.

atlasaxis
08-16-2010, 10:27 PM
Was sitting at the otb a few years back playing my dime supers. In the booth next to me was an eccentric looking fellow that I had seen there quite often. Every now and then someone would walk by us and say "Hi doctor super" or "Hi doc super". I wasn't quite sure what they meant by that until he struck up a conversation with me after I enthusiastically hit a dime super at a nice price. He congratulated me and asked me if that was what I played most. I said, "Yes, what about you?" At that time someone walked by again and greeted him with that same "doc super" greeting. He said, "Yup, that's why everyone calls me that. They know that's all I play".

I said, "I'm guessing you do pretty well if that's your nickname." He asked me my strategy and I told him and then I asked him his. He said the key for him was to find races with false favorites and where he had 2 solid middle odds contenders that he felt very strongly would come into the super. He would then key them into two slots (1&2, 1&3, 1&4, 2&3, 2&4, 3&4), hitting the ALL button in the other 2 slots. My first thought was that must cost him a freakin' fortune. Then I found out he played the full super! YIKES!!

He said he only plays a few a day. In fact, he had one in right then at Churchill. I had played the same race. I wasn't even close. He on the other hand nailed it for over 30K. If I didn't see it I wouldn't have believed it, but then the congratulations came rolling in from some of the regulars who knew him well.

After I had been around there for a while and had gotten to know some of the regular "heavies", I asked them about Doc Super. They all said unequivocally that he was one of the most successful players they knew, and that he was in love with that @#$% ALL button!! I just laughed and thanked them.

tbwinner
08-16-2010, 11:11 PM
Sometimes I use the ALL button in front of a trifecta. Such as:
ALL/AB/ABC

This in addition to playing an exacta like A/BC or AB/ABC and tri's AB/ABC/ABCDE...it seemed that so many times the race played out exactly how I wanted to do but a damn horse somehow got around and came first and my picks ran 2nd/3rd to this "nobody and nowhere" horse. So with the ALL button, I got the coverage in the front. Really works out when a nice bomb makes it way in front!

On a side note: instead of the ALL button, I punch in the numbers one through how many. Sorry for the guy behind me at the SAM while I punch in 123456789. :D

Sunday Silence
08-16-2010, 11:29 PM
I agree that overall it's not a sound strategy and sometimes a cop out for not having a real opinion. I also agree that if you have a price in your solid AB selections than win and exacta bets will serve you betterin the long run. But there are no absolutes. Every race is a different puzzle and opporunity. My best score was a wide open maiden claimer. I liked 2 "win type" trainers on top (8-5 and 11-1), but my key was a 3rd out who showed speed first out to finish 3rd and then broke slow start 2. So played 2 win types to my 80-1 speed type to all, and AB-all-speed type. All paid off this time - 11-1, 80-1 and photo for 3rd. 55-1. 10,300 for $1. I think I can withstand some takeout and ALL reaches once in awhile for a score like that.

wisconsin
08-17-2010, 02:25 PM
I strictly use all in the 4th leg of a super, and sometimes, depending on the combo on top, in the 3rd and 4th legs. Once out of the money, jocks sometimes just don't try very hard. The thing about "all" is that "all" rides full out to the wire, never loses a photo, and cannot be disqualified. I also avoid the heartache I once felt when choosing between horses for a part of a leg. Lost a $13k dime super at Delaware the first year they were introduced. Never again.

Ocala Mike
08-17-2010, 02:48 PM
The thing about "all" is that "all" rides full out to the wire, never loses a photo, and cannot be disqualified.

Amen, brother. ALL means never having to say you f***ed up!


Ocala Mike

snoadog
08-17-2010, 03:02 PM
"all" rides full out to the wire, never loses a photo, and cannot be disqualified

Wisdom from the horseplayer's school of hard knocks :ThmbUp:

macdiarmida
08-18-2010, 02:52 AM
tbwinner wrote:
Sorry for the guy behind me at the SAM while I punch in 123456789Dangerous for me, especially right at post time. One slip and you've left out one number, double hit a number and you've left that one out, too.