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View Full Version : “The window of opportunity for dirt has closed,” said Mandella


andymays
08-16-2010, 07:13 AM
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2010/aug/15/polytrack-debate-far-from-over/

Excerpt:

“The window of opportunity for dirt has closed,” said Mandella, another Hall of Famer.


Excerpt:

“It (dirt) is not an option,” Turrell said. “The horse population is so fragile that we need to just get through these times. I believe we’re getting through these times because of these surfaces. It’s a new survival.”

andymays
08-16-2010, 07:14 AM
Stunning comments.

Audioslavery
08-16-2010, 07:20 AM
Interesting to see it from a SoCal trainer in spite of the recent breakdowns at Del Mar.

lamboguy
08-16-2010, 07:32 AM
to me the tough part about sythetic is when you have to switch into it. when you train your horses in ocala and ship them to any pollytrack you are asking for trouble. the solution to the soft tissue injuries might be to train on synthetic to start out with. i have experienced 2 broken tivia's with my california experiment. we have had a bunch of horses get injured in woodbine as well. they are all in florida recovering from injury's. its probably something wrong that we did in training these horses in preparation for synthetic.

we are not having any problems like the ones on synthetic on the horses that we send to regular dirt. the horses that we have put out in the past have run for years with the bottoms that we put into them in florida. i find that if i send them to synthetic i am lucky if i even get a race out of them.

i have no idea what planet mandella or carla gaines is from. maybe they have figured how to keep their horses together on synthetic. maybe they can share their secrets. i know that carla has been outperforming the other trainers out there.

anyway i feel very stupid saying the same thing over and over again. but the truth is that since the advent of synthetic race track handles are dramatically down. there are people that have quit the game because of synthetic. i see horses everyday that i have had as baby's that are running some place at 9 and winning.

Jasonm921
08-16-2010, 07:50 AM
This is why California racing is failing.

CincyHorseplayer
08-16-2010, 08:57 AM
I am so glad that when I wake up in the morning I'm on east coast time and I don't have to deal with BS!!!;)

Tom
08-16-2010, 09:59 AM
Wonder how much he is getting paid to say that? :rolleyes:

RaceBookJoe
08-16-2010, 10:03 AM
Wonder how much he is getting paid to say that? :rolleyes:

Makes you wonder huh. rbj

carlonr
08-16-2010, 01:20 PM
to me the tough part about sythetic is when you have to switch into it. when you train your horses in ocala and ship them to any pollytrack you are asking for trouble. the solution to the soft tissue injuries might be to train on synthetic to start out with. i have experienced 2 broken tivia's with my california experiment. we have had a bunch of horses get injured in woodbine as well. they are all in florida recovering from injury's. its probably something wrong that we did in training these horses in preparation for synthetic.

we are not having any problems like the ones on synthetic on the horses that we send to regular dirt. the horses that we have put out in the past have run for years with the bottoms that we put into them in florida. i find that if i send them to synthetic i am lucky if i even get a race out of them.

i have no idea what planet mandella or carla gaines is from. maybe they have figured how to keep their horses together on synthetic. maybe they can share their secrets. i know that carla has been outperforming the other trainers out there.

anyway i feel very stupid saying the same thing over and over again. but the truth is that since the advent of synthetic race track handles are dramatically down. there are people that have quit the game because of synthetic. i see horses everyday that i have had as baby's that are running some place at 9 and winning.

It's not only Gaines and Mandella. There are others who are not as vocal.

The_Knight_Sky
08-16-2010, 02:12 PM
Wonder how much he is getting paid to say that? :rolleyes:


Maybe not paid but people like Barry Abrams benefit by having an interest in a prolific synthetic sire such as Unusual Heat.

As for Ms. Gaines, I am not sure what her line of thinking is but Mr. Mandella
has been on the wrong ship from the very beginning:

from September 2006:
http://i33.tinypic.com/1zc6q8.jpg (http://chrb.ca.gov/press_releases/2006_09_21_press_release.pdf)
http://chrb.ca.gov/press_releases/2006_09_21_press_release.pdf

46zilzal
08-16-2010, 02:15 PM
The WHOLE game is collapsing around them and they continue to split hairs. THE BREED is weak not the surface they run on. EXACERBATE it with drugs.....They all continue to miss the boat..the problem is in the breeding shed not the surface they run upon.

jelly
08-16-2010, 02:17 PM
I'm sure the California Racetrack reporters will have some follow up questions for Mr.mandella.

The_Knight_Sky
08-16-2010, 03:52 PM
I'm sure the California Racetrack reporters will have some follow up questions for Mr.mandella.

Sure hope so.
There must be more to the story if there are still a few folks who remain adamant in their support for a failed product.

“I saw a magazine article the other day from 50 years ago that was calling for safer racetracks for horses,” Mitchell said. “Fifty years later, and nothing has changed. To me, the breakdowns are just as bad, if not worse. You’re dealing with hind-leg problems that you never dealt with before. Everyone has them. A lot of statistics are just a portion of breakdowns. We work them and take them back to the barn, and 30 minutes later they can’t walk. These tracks are terrible, and I’m sick of them.”

Mitchell said he hoped to hear soon “that Santa Anita is going back to a dirt track, and then the rest of them go back to dirt, too.”

That’s not likely to happen anytime soon. The California Horse Racing Board mandated that all of California’s major tracks switch to synthetic surfaces before the 2007 season. Horse deaths due to injuries on dirt surfaces were the reason.


And these reporters must as the CHRB why this mandate has not been formally repealed. There should be no grey areas at this point.

letswastemoney
08-16-2010, 05:29 PM
Not surprising Barry Abrams prefers polytrack...considering his stable is full of Unusual Heats, a turf sire!!

With synthetic tracks, he has twice the options of where to run his horses. But if they went back to dirt, his Unusual Heats would run up the track.

The_Knight_Sky
08-17-2010, 11:19 AM
Not surprising Barry Abrams prefers polytrack...
considering his stable is full of Unusual Heats, a turf sire!!




But I wonder what Carla Gaines stands to gain from the continuation of synthetics racing. The majority of Cali horsemen have crossed the line and come to a conclusion that the window of opportunity for synthetics have closed. And they are correct.

http://i38.tinypic.com/2aetlsl.gifThe most nonsense that still gets quoted was that the previous "dirt tracks" were broken.
Well according to several horsemen in the article it was because
wood byproducts were added to the main track. So they weren't really dirt tracks to begin with.

Sound familiar?
Adding foreign substances to the main track.

Mr. Stronach would be wise enough to bring in a modern version of a main track and reap the benefits of being the only SoCal racetrack that caters to horses that were bred for and trained for traditional American main track racing.

As it stands the Southern California continues to dish out black type
to the stakes winners in races that continue to diminish in importance on the American racing calendar. Also of importance is for California to have a surface that produces quality dirt 3 year olds prepping for the Triple Crown series.

California hasn't exactly distinquished themselves in the Triple Crown series the past few years. Wonder no more.

andymays
08-17-2010, 11:23 AM
http://poststar.com/news/regions/saratoga/track/article_13c7d57e-a9be-11df-87cd-001cc4c03286.html

Excerpt:

“His shins were bothering him after that (debut) race, so we turned him out for the winter,” said Baffert, sporting his ever-present sunglasses. “He came back and ran two turns at Santa Anita and came out of that race sore.”

Baffert described the problem as a hind end issue, what he termed “a synthetic thing.”

“We got him ready to run again, and (owner) Hal Earnhardt said to me, ‘Please put him on a plane to Saratoga!’ So here he is.”

andymays
08-17-2010, 11:54 AM
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2010/aug/15/polytrack-debate-far-from-over/

Excerpt:

“I’m sitting on good horses here, but I can’t race them on this surface,” said Bob Baffert, a member of the sport’s Hall of Fame.

classhandicapper
08-17-2010, 12:18 PM
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2010/aug/15/polytrack-debate-far-from-over/

Excerpt:

“I’m sitting on good horses here, but I can’t race them on this surface,” said Bob Baffert, a member of the sport’s Hall of Fame.

This is exactly what should happen.

Horses that are better suited to synthetic surfaces should stay in CA or ship there from the east and horses that are not should move east.

Then let the chips fall where they may while the research on soundness issues continue.

I predicted at the start of this experiment that ultimately CA would become the dominant area in the country for turf/synthetic racing (some horses crossing back and forth) and the east would become dominant area for dirt racing. As long as the horses are OK, I don't see a problem with that.

FenceBored
08-17-2010, 12:31 PM
This is exactly what should happen.

Horses that are better suited to synthetic surfaces should stay in CA or ship there from the east and horses that are not should move east.

Then let the chips fall where they may while the research on soundness issues continue.

I predicted at the start of this experiment that ultimately CA would become the dominant area in the country for turf/synthetic racing (some horses crossing back and forth) and the east would become dominant area for dirt racing. As long as the horses are OK, I don't see a problem with that.

Why should "Eastern" horses ship to CA? In the winter there's only Turfway, so maybe shipping in for SA might make some sense (instead of going to Fla, or FG, or OP). But come April you have Keeneland, then Arlington, Woodbine, and Presque Isle Downs to meet the needs of synthetic racers up until Breeders Cup time.

Paid for by the Alliance for Quality Midwestern Synthetic Racing.

bane
08-17-2010, 01:14 PM
Why should "Eastern" horses ship to CA? In the winter there's only Turfway, so maybe shipping in for SA might make some sense (instead of going to Fla, or FG, or OP). But come April you have Keeneland, then Arlington, Woodbine, and Presque Isle Downs to meet the needs of synthetic racers up until Breeders Cup time.

Paid for by the Alliance for Quality Midwestern Synthetic Racing.

I think all sythetic racing can go to Canada and Europe! I say good day! ;)

classhandicapper
08-17-2010, 10:45 PM
Why should "Eastern" horses ship to CA? In the winter there's only Turfway, so maybe shipping in for SA might make some sense (instead of going to Fla, or FG, or OP). But come April you have Keeneland, then Arlington, Woodbine, and Presque Isle Downs to meet the needs of synthetic racers up until Breeders Cup time.

Paid for by the Alliance for Quality Midwestern Synthetic Racing.

Any quality horse that demonstrates a preference for synthetic/turf racing would be better off in CA because there will be WAY more opportunities to run in Graded Stakes or for a lot of money. Keeneland might be an exception, but if I were going to choose a circuit, I'd go to CA.

Hanover1
08-17-2010, 10:58 PM
But I wonder what Carla Gaines stands to gain from the continuation of synthetics racing. The majority of Cali horsemen have crossed the line and come to a conclusion that the window of opportunity for synthetics have closed. And they are correct.

http://i38.tinypic.com/2aetlsl.gifThe most nonsense that still gets quoted was that the previous "dirt tracks" were broken.
Well according to several horsemen in the article it was because
wood byproducts were added to the main track. So they weren't really dirt tracks to begin with.

Sound familiar?
Adding foreign substances to the main track.

Mr. Stronach would be wise enough to bring in a modern version of a main track and reap the benefits of being the only SoCal racetrack that caters to horses that were bred for and trained for traditional American main track racing.

As it stands the Southern California continues to dish out black type
to the stakes winners in races that continue to diminish in importance on the American racing calendar. Also of importance is for California to have a surface that produces quality dirt 3 year olds prepping for the Triple Crown series.

California hasn't exactly distinquished themselves in the Triple Crown series the past few years. Wonder no more.

A black type win is a black type win-paint it how you will. The sport as a whole is diminishing in importance, and your slant on SoCal may contain some truth, however it is not the sole reason for this decline.
To say SoCal "hasn't exactly distinguished themselves" in TC races just totally discards LAL, Pioneer of The Nile, ect....and has started more than the share of bettable starters.
I respect your slant on SoCal, but the scenarios you are using to make your point need some clarification to hold much weight.

FenceBored
08-18-2010, 07:33 AM
A black type win is a black type win-paint it how you will. The sport as a whole is diminishing in importance, and your slant on SoCal may contain some truth, however it is not the sole reason for this decline.
To say SoCal "hasn't exactly distinguished themselves" in TC races just totally discards LAL, Pioneer of The Nile, ect....and has started more than the share of bettable starters.
I respect your slant on SoCal, but the scenarios you are using to make your point need some clarification to hold much weight.

Completely agree.

The_Knight_Sky
08-18-2010, 09:23 AM
A black type win is a black type win-paint it how you will.




I beg to differ.

A win in today's Hollywood Gold Cup, The Big Cap, or The Pacific Classic run on synthetics is not equal to the accomplishments of main track stars of the of yesteryear. The reason is two fold. Today's older horses aren't of the same ilk an Alysheba, Wicked North, Ferdinand or even Candi's Gold or Judge Angelucci. Secondly, today's black type is being tallied by those with pedigrees and running styles more conducive to turf racing.

That also means a lack of opportunities for true dirt horses out in California.

http://i33.tinypic.com/dlgxvc.jpg


Before Lookin at Lucky came along this year and took The Preakness stakes,
those using California Derby prep races were blanked the two previous years
(zero wins in the Triple Crown series.)

Lookin at Lucky is a remarkable and versatile talent and to expect another one like him next year isn't prudent.

Fager Fan
08-18-2010, 09:44 AM
This is exactly what should happen.

Horses that are better suited to synthetic surfaces should stay in CA or ship there from the east and horses that are not should move east.

Then let the chips fall where they may while the research on soundness issues continue.

I predicted at the start of this experiment that ultimately CA would become the dominant area in the country for turf/synthetic racing (some horses crossing back and forth) and the east would become dominant area for dirt racing. As long as the horses are OK, I don't see a problem with that.

Bad idea. California is a racing island, and to put in all one surface at the major tracks provides no option. Even if one or two had one surface and the third had the other, it's still a problem as the circuit doesn't have the same major tracks running at the same time, thus there is only one option at a time.

California owners, just like their counterparts in the East, want to see their horses race near them. What California owner wants to go to the yearling sales, buy a dozen horses, have them broken, send to their CA trainer, get them ready to race, and then during that time or after they race, have to ship their horses East to get them off the CA surfaces? What trainer is going to want to send perhaps a large percentage of his horses, perhaps even top horses, to another trainer?

On the flip side, there are very few synthetic specialists, so rarely is it going to make sense or be desired for Eastern owners to send their horses to CA. They can go to Keeneland, Arlington, Presque Isle, Turfway, etc. instead.

If the synthetic experiment was to happen, it should be as it is in the East, scattered among some tracks that find a benefit to the surface (such as Turfway), leaving owners and trainers with the option of racing on that surface or not.

If CA owners and trainers have only one choice, it should be dirt, not some foreign surface that isn't our predominant surface.

classhandicapper
08-18-2010, 10:19 AM
Bad idea. California is a racing island, and to put in all one surface at the major tracks provides no option. Even if one or two had one surface and the third had the other, it's still a problem as the circuit doesn't have the same major tracks running at the same time, thus there is only one option at a time.

California owners, just like their counterparts in the East, want to see their horses race near them. What California owner wants to go to the yearling sales, buy a dozen horses, have them broken, send to their CA trainer, get them ready to race, and then during that time or after they race, have to ship their horses East to get them off the CA surfaces? What trainer is going to want to send perhaps a large percentage of his horses, perhaps even top horses, to another trainer?

On the flip side, there are very few synthetic specialists, so rarely is it going to make sense or be desired for Eastern owners to send their horses to CA. They can go to Keeneland, Arlington, Presque Isle, Turfway, etc. instead.

If the synthetic experiment was to happen, it should be as it is in the East, scattered among some tracks that find a benefit to the surface (such as Turfway), leaving owners and trainers with the option of racing on that surface or not.

If CA owners and trainers have only one choice, it should be dirt, not some foreign surface that isn't our predominant surface.


I thought it was a terrible idea to put synthetic surfaces at all the major tracks in CA. I am simply suggesting what I think is going to evolve over time now that it has been done.

I disagree with you about synthetic specialists.

I think a lot of former dirt and turf horses (including Europeans that would otherwise be limited to turf) run just as well on it and some other horses actually prefer it. Those high quality horses that don't like it can find opportunities elsewhere and over time the owners of claimers etc... will simply restock with horse that like it.

If they can work out all the maintenance issues and it proves to be as safe or safer than dirt, I can now see upsides that I didn't see at the start. It's a more neutral surface than either dirt or turf.

classhandicapper
08-18-2010, 10:26 AM
I beg to differ.

A win in today's Hollywood Gold Cup, The Big Cap, or The Pacific Classic run on synthetics is not equal to the accomplishments of main track stars of the of yesteryear. The reason is two fold. Today's older horses aren't of the same ilk an Alysheba, Wicked North, Ferdinand or even Candi's Gold or Judge Angelucci. Secondly, today's black type is being tallied by those with pedigrees and running styles more conducive to turf racing.

That also means a lack of opportunities for true dirt horses out in California.

http://i33.tinypic.com/dlgxvc.jpg


Before Lookin at Lucky came along this year and took The Preakness stakes,
those using California Derby prep races were blanked the two previous years
(zero wins in the Triple Crown series.)

Lookin at Lucky is a remarkable and versatile talent and to expect another one like him next year isn't prudent.

What's happening is that the intrinsic values are changing.

Pedigrees that have shown an affinity for both turf/synthetic or dirt/synthetic should be increasing in value because there are more opportunities to earn a lot of money than before.

Pedigrees that have shown more limited tendencies like "just dirt" should be decreasing in value because there are fewer opportunities to earn large sums of money than before.

The_Knight_Sky
08-20-2010, 09:00 AM
If CA owners and trainers have only one choice, it should be dirt,
not some foreign surface that isn't our predominant surface.




Yes.

And furriners, they should be the ones to "adapt" if they want to win Breeders Cup races.