A non PaceAdvantage Poll [Archive] - Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com

andymays

08-10-2010, 09:38 AM

Sometimes it helps to get another perspective.
The Daily Paulick Poll
Which of the following do you think will win the 1 1/4-mile Breeders' Cup Classic?
Blame (16%)
Lookin At Lucky (11%)
Quality Road (10%)
Rachel Alexandra (6%)
Rail Trip (2%)
Zenyatta (55%)

The public does real well on the winning percentage of favorites too. :rolleyes:

This is also more proof that Zenyatta is being overrated by the public. Same thing happed in the 2009 HOY vote.

carlonr

08-10-2010, 09:40 AM

The public does real well on the winning percentage of favorites too. :rolleyes:

This is also more proof that Zenyatta is being overrated by the public. Same thing happed in the 2009 HOY vote.

I think readers of the Paulick Report are more into horse racing that the general public. the poll had nothing to do with HOY. It was strictly regarding the race.

tucker6

08-10-2010, 09:42 AM

It's a shame no Euro horses are entering this year. :rolleyes:

If that is truly how the betting plays out, many a person on this board will retire rich the next day.

andymays

08-10-2010, 09:42 AM

I think readers of the Paulick Report are more into horse racing that the general public.

Pace Advantage isn't the general public. I think this board is way more informed than any other.

Carl, do you realize that almost every time you post something about Zenyatta you cost her another HOY vote. ;)

carlonr

08-10-2010, 09:44 AM

It's a shame no Euro horses are entering this year. :rolleyes:

If that is truly how the betting plays out, many a person on this board will retire rich the next day.

Seems to me those California "synthetic horses" have done pretty good this year when running on dirt back east.

andymays

08-10-2010, 09:46 AM

Seems to me those California "synthetic horses" have done pretty good this year when running on dirt back east.

That begs the question, if they run better on dirt and reach their full potential why not have dirt in California? :confused:

carlonr

08-10-2010, 09:49 AM

That begs the question, if they run better on dirt and reach their full potential why not have dirt in California? :confused: I'm not against having dirt in California. I did not make the call regarding synthetics. However was I referring to the synthetic to dirt angle, not dirt to dirt.

andymays

08-10-2010, 09:51 AM

I'm not against having dirt in California. I did not make the call regarding synthetics. However was I referring to the synthetic to dirt angle not dirt to dirt.

You ought to be fighting for a return to dirt then instead of defending the indefensible.

carlonr

08-10-2010, 10:04 AM

You ought to be fighting for a return to dirt then instead of defending the indefensible.
You can't choose my fights for me. Your fight is your fight. I'm sure you have plenty of company. I'm for safety of the horses first. I'll await the necessary studies and facts, before I decide. I have no right to insist others use the same criteria I do, just as you have no right to tell me what I "ought to be doing"

andymays

08-10-2010, 10:10 AM

You can't choose my fights for me. Your fight is your fight I'm sure you have plenty of company. I'm for safety of the horses first. I'll await the necessary studies and facts, before I decide. I have no right to insist others use the same criteria I do, just as you have no right to tell me what I "ought to be doing"

No Kidding Carl. I thought I could choose your fights for you? :rolleyes:

If you don't know by now, especially after Tedesco came out with the truth, then I don't know what to say. :bang:

carlonr

08-10-2010, 10:17 AM

No Kidding Carl. I thought I could choose your fights for you? :rolleyes:

If you don't know by now, especially after Tedesco came out with the truth, then I don't know what to say. :bang:

To my knowledge, Tedesco has not conducted any study regarding the safety issue. Again, I am for safety of the animal first. When I feel, that there is enough data available for me to take a definitive stance, I will.

In the meantime. I'll continue to reward myself financially playing the western synthetic to eastern dirt angle.

andymays

08-10-2010, 10:21 AM

To my knowledge, Tedesco has not conducted any study regarding the safety issue. Again, I am for safety of the animal first. When I feel, that there is enough data available for me to take a definitive stance, I will.

In the meantime. I'll continue to reward myself financially playing the western synthetic to eastern dirt angle.

Carl, if you want to have some credibility you need to stop towing the California company line. When you imply that people who want a return to dirt don't have the safety of the animal first you take the low road like many before you.

You're doing California racing a disservice by agreeing with everything the people in power have done and are doing. They have made huge mistakes and the synthetic mandate was one of the biggest mistakes. Even Richard "the key man" Shapiro believes that now. I suppose you're for increasing takeout and support the bill going throught the state legislature as well. Thats a question!

Tom

08-10-2010, 10:26 AM

With all due respect, who else matters more than the public?
If we have a horse that the public loves, for whatever reason, is that not a GOOD THING for racing?

carlonr

08-10-2010, 10:27 AM

Carl, if you want to have some credibility you need to stop towing the California company line. When you imply that people who want a return to dirt don't have the safety of the animal first you take the low road like many before you.

You're doing California racing a disservice by agreeing with everything the people in power have done and are doing. I suppose you're for increasing takeout and support the bill going throught the state legislature as well. Thats a question!

My issues regarding safety have nothing to do with the company line. I grew up in rural Oklahoma. (Go Sooners!) Horses have been a part of my life for as long as I can remember. My stance is very personal to me. It has absolutely nothing to do with a company line. If synthetics are proven to be safer, I'm 100% for them. If not, I'll whole heartedly join the back to dirt movement! I am for lowering the takeout! You take the low road when you imply that an individual cannot for their own reasons want to make sure that we are doing the best for the horses.

GaryG

08-10-2010, 10:28 AM

In the meantime. I'll continue to reward myself financially playing the western synthetic to eastern dirt angle.Do you have any examples of these most excellent plays?

08-10-2010, 10:29 AM

Seems to me those California "synthetic horses" have done pretty good this year when running on dirt back east.

Some have, some haven't. I don't recall too many deep closers moving to dirt and lighting it up.

andymays

08-10-2010, 10:31 AM

My issues regarding safety have nothing to do with the company line. I grew up in rural Oklahoma. Horses have been a part of my life for as long as i can remember. My stance is very personal to me. It has absolutely nothing to do with a company line. If synthetics are proven to be safer, I'm 100% for them. If not, I'll whole heartedly join the back to dirt movement! I am for lowering the takeout! You take the low road when you imply that an individual cannot for their own reasons want to make sure that we are doing the best for the horses.

Carl, you pull the same crap that has been going on since they put this junk in. I'll never forget an article where the author said that if you weren't for synthetic surfaces then you hated horses and didn't care about little kids who went to the track and were traumatized after seeing a breakdown.

Haven't you figured out that when the people who think the know best mandate something like sythetic surfaces it often has the opposite effect?

For the millionth time can you tell me how many of the the original claims touting synthetic surfaces have proven to be true?

tucker6

08-10-2010, 10:32 AM

I don't recall too many deep closers moving to dirt and lighting it up.
Any examples come to mind over the past five years??

carlonr

08-10-2010, 10:49 AM

Do you have any examples of these most excellent plays? Lookin at Lucky. Legged up on California synthetics. An absolute monster on dirt.

tucker6

08-10-2010, 10:56 AM

Lookin at Lucky. Legged up on California synthetics. An absolute monster on dirt.How about deep closers from syn to dirt??

... and I wouldn't call LAL a monster. That's over the top.

andymays

08-10-2010, 10:56 AM

Lookin at Lucky. Legged up on California synthetics. An absolute monster on dirt.

Then why not take his trainers advice and go back to dirt? He's been against these junk surfaces from the get go!

Dahoss9698

08-10-2010, 10:56 AM

Lookin at Lucky. Legged up on California synthetics. An absolute monster on dirt.

You must have made a killing. 6/5 in the Rebel, 2-1 in the Preakness and 6/5 in the Haskell. Wow.

That is of course ignoring the Derby where he was 6th (with some trouble) as the favorite.

carlonr

08-10-2010, 10:56 AM

Carl, you pull the same crap that has been going on since they put this junk in. I'll never forget an article where the author said that if you weren't for synthetic surfaces then you hated horses and didn't care about little kids who went to the track and were traumatized after seeing a breakdown.

Haven't you figured out that when the people who think the know best mandate something like sythetic surfaces it often has the opposite effect?

For the millionth time can you tell me how many of the the original claims touting synthetic surfaces have proven to be true?

Once again, I am not pro-synthetic. For me the jury is still out. I am not interested in the claims. The manufacturer of a car can "claim" it is the best ride ever. It probably isn't, but that does not mean it is not a great car. Marketing is marketing. I can think of very few products that are everything their marketing said they would be. I am only interested in one thing. Is it better for the horses or not. At this point, for me, I'm still want to see more data. If others have already made up their mind, that's ok for them. I'll await the data.

carlonr

08-10-2010, 10:59 AM

You must have made a killing. 6/5 in the Rebel, 2-1 in the Preakness and 6/5 in the Haskell. Wow.

That is of course ignoring the Derby where he was 6th (with some trouble) as the favorite.

I used him as an example, because you asked for recency. Take a look at the derby prep races that had California horses going from synthetic to dirt. Then post those prices.

andymays

08-10-2010, 10:59 AM

Once again, I am not pro-synthetic. For me the jury is still out. I am not interested in the claims. The manufacturer of a car can "claim" it is the best ride ever. In probably isn't, but that does not mean it is not a great car. Marketing is marketing. I can think of very few products that are everything their marketing said they would be. I am only interested in one thing. Is it better for the horses or not. At this point, for me, I'm still want to see more data. If others have already made up their mind, that's ok for them. I'll await the data.

How many years has it been. If you can't make an informed judgement by now then how long will it take. Five more years?

Usually when claims are made about a product some of the things they say about it are true. In this case none of the things they say about these junk surfaces are true. It's fraud!

Dahoss9698

08-10-2010, 11:03 AM

I used him as an example, because you asked for recency. Take a look at the derby prep races that had California horses going from synthetic to dirt. Then post those prices.

I didn't ask you for anything. And I'm certainly not going to do your work. You posted you were rewarded financially. Then gave an example of a horse that's highest mutual since winning on dirt was $6.80. It's funny to me.

carlonr

08-10-2010, 11:04 AM

Then why not take his trainers advice and go back to dirt? He's been against these junk surfaces from the get go!

He is a speed trainer. Former quarter horse trainer. He is for anything that says first horse to the quarter pole wins. He also is not an authority on safety. If every trainer in California said they don't like synthetics...It would not matter to me. The only thing that matters to me is the safety of the horses. If synthetics are proven to be safer,I'll support them. If not... back to dirt ASAP.

andymays

08-10-2010, 11:05 AM

He is a speed trainer. Former quarter horse trainer. He is for anything that says first horse to the quarter pole wins. He also is not an authority on safety. If every trainer in California said they don't like synthetics...It would not matter to me. The only thing that matters to me is the safety of the horses. If synthetics are proven to be safer,I'll support them. If not... back to dirt ASAP.

Those Kentucky Derby wins were at Riudoso downs going 440 yards right?

carlonr

08-10-2010, 11:09 AM

I didn't ask you for anything. And I'm certainly not going to do your work. You posted you were rewarded financially. Then gave an example of a horse that's highest mutual since winning on dirt was $6.80. It's funny to me.

Sorry, I was going fast and thought you said most "recent " plays. Previously I was accused of redboarding, but I'll post them for you.

carlonr

08-10-2010, 11:10 AM

Those Kentucky Derby wins were at Riudoso downs going 440 yards right?

The safety statistics are the only ones that matter to me.

Dahoss9698

08-10-2010, 11:10 AM

Sorry, I was going fast and thought you said most "recent " plays. Previously I was accused of redboarding, but I'll post them for you.

Again, I didn't ask you for anything.

carlonr

08-10-2010, 11:12 AM

How many years has it been. If you can't make an informed judgement by now then how long will it take. Five more years?

Usually when claims are made about a product some of the things they say about it are true. In this case none of the things they say about these junk surfaces are true. It's fraud!

Show me the stats that say it isn't safer

andymays

08-10-2010, 11:13 AM

The safety statistics are the only ones that matter to me.

And so far the statistic say there are way more hind end injuries and fatalities are inconclusive.

Since you're an insider at Del Mar every day why don't you speak with John Shirreffs or Bruce Headley. Shirreffs walks around a lot and Headleys box is Clubhouse level 2. Exit near the west service bar. Headley sits in the front row that's a little to your left but almost straight ahead. Baffert sits just over to the left of Headley.

You could get it all done in one afternoon and then report back here. ;)

carlonr

08-10-2010, 11:14 AM

Again, I didn't ask you for anything.

Reply was meant for GaryG

carlonr

08-10-2010, 11:16 AM

And so far the statistic say there are way more hind end injuries and fatalities are inconclusive.

Since you're an insider at Del Mar every day why don't you speak with John Shirreffs or Bruce Headley. Shirreffs walks around a lot and Headleys box is Clubhouse level 2. Exit near the west service bar. Headley sits in the front row that's a little to your left but almost straight ahead.

Its data that I'm awaiting, not conversation.

Phantombridgejumpe

08-10-2010, 11:20 AM

The public does real well on the winning percentage of favorites too. - This was posted by Andymays.

Actually, the public does a good job and at a very steady rate.

No matter the track, the surface, the area of the country etc... The public seems to hit at about the 35% rate with favorites. Almost nobody on their own has a higher % of winners than the public.

Try it sometime - see if you can top the public over a month at a meet, it isn't that easy.

andymays

08-10-2010, 11:24 AM

tucker6

08-10-2010, 11:25 AM

Its data that I'm awaiting, not conversation.
We all know stats can lie to us. However, some of the best stats are the gut feelings people have. Instincts are the unconscious manifestation of actual facts. You already know this though, which is why you won't do as Andy suggests.

andymays

08-10-2010, 11:27 AM

We all know stats can lie to us. However, some of the best stats are the gut feelings people have. Instincts are the unconscious manifestation of actual facts. You already know this though, which is why you won't do as Andy suggests.

Most of the Trainers beleive that Dr Rick Arthur misled the public when he compiled the injury and breakdown statistics on dirt prior to 2008. I believe he lied as well. Statistics are only as good as the people who compile them. Those that have conflicts of interest in the matter should recuse themeselves from compiling any statistics.

carlonr

08-10-2010, 11:37 AM

We all know stats can lie to us. However, some of the best stats are the gut feelings people have. Instincts are the unconscious manifestation of actual facts. You already know this though, which is why you won't do as Andy suggests.

The reason I don't do what Andy is suggesting is because I'm am well aware of the feelings of Headley, Baffert, and a host of other trainers. I understand where they are coming from. Trainers have to train differently for synthetics. Most of them, like the rest of us are resistant to change. The more turf oriented trainers are generally more accepting of the change because the change is not as great. If Headley and Baffert are compiling a database of injuries that can be compared to dirt, I would be greatly interested in viewing the data. If that's the kind of quantitative, measurable information you are saying they have, I'll talk to them tomorrow.

Lastly, statistics and gut feelings are vastly different. And if not, Why is one persons "gut feeling" that they need more information less valid that someone elses.

gm10

08-10-2010, 11:57 AM

The reason I don't do what Andy is suggesting is because I'm am well aware of the feelings of Headley, Baffert, and a host of other trainers. I understand where they are coming from. Trainers have to train differently for synthetics. Most of them, like the rest of us are resistant to change. The more turf oriented trainers are generally more accepting of the change because the change is not as great. If Headley and Baffert are compiling a database of injuries that can be compared to dirt, I would be greatly interested in viewing the data. If that's the kind of quantitative, measurable information you are saying they have, I'll talk to them tomorrow.

Lastly, statistics and gut feelings are vastly different. And if not, Why is one persons "gut feeling" that they need more information less valid that someone elses.

Hi mate, just my 2 cents (speaking from experience) ... you are wasting your time with this. You won't get any objective debate on surfaces (or speed figures, or Zenyatta, or a lot of other things) in this place. I normally don't post here anymore, but I've seen your recent messages on various subjects and I can see you mean well (big mistake).

tucker6

08-10-2010, 12:04 PM

tucker6

08-10-2010, 12:07 PM

Lastly, statistics and gut feelings are vastly different. And if not, Why is one persons "gut feeling" that they need more information less valid that someone elses.
Carl,

I never said it wasn't. My comment was in the context that if trainers are edgy about a surface or a track or a distance or a horse, there is usually very good underlying FACTS that they are privy to on a personal basis which allows them to make decisions. Why are trainers and owners edgy about synthetics if it is so great supposedly?? That was my question.

Tom

carlonr

08-10-2010, 12:18 PM

Hi mate, just my 2 cents (speaking from experience) ... you are wasting your time with this. You won't get any objective debate on surfaces (or speed figures, or Zenyatta, or a lot of other things) in this place. I normally don't post here anymore, but I've seen your recent messages on various subjects and I can see you mean well (big mistake).

I continue to post because this site is linked to many other sites that people new to racing view. On many boards the moderators are there to do just that moderate. This board is quite different because the moderators have very strong opinions of there own and voice them often. It has been brought to my attention that this is a privately owned board and they can do what they want.

I think its important that opinions other than those of a specific group are voiced as well. At least people new to racing, (Del Mar brings in a lot of those) should be able to read other points of view. I'm pretty thick skinned (I have physical scars from attack dogs in the civil rights movement) and can hold my ground against opposition.

andymays

08-10-2010, 12:23 PM

I continue to post because this site is linked to many other sites that people new to racing view. On many boards the moderators are there to do just that moderate. This board is quite different because the moderators have very strong opinions of there own and voice them often. It has been brought to my attention that this is a privately owned board and they can do what they want.

I think its important that opinions other than those of a specific group are voiced as well. At least people new to racing, (Del Mar brings in a lot of those) should be able to read other points of view. I'm pretty thick skinned (I have physical scars from attack dogs in the civil rights movement) and can hold my ground against opposition.

Carl, to the best of my knowledge everyone who posts here is for civil rights for all people. Suggesting otherwise is out of line.

So now you are equating people who disagree with you to those that were against civil rights for all. That's rich.

Do you guys ever stop with the drama? When are you and gm10 going to march in support of synthetic surfaces and for Zenyatta to run the United Nations?

tucker6

08-10-2010, 12:25 PM

Carl, to the best of my knowledge everyone who posts here is for civil rights
for all people.

So now you are equating people who disagree with you to those that were against civil rights for all. That's rich.

Do you guys ever stop with the drama? when are you and gm10 going to march?
Come on Andy. I didn't take it that way at all. He was just giving an example from his life where he had to have thick skin (literally). Let's not go down that path. It's been a pretty level-headed conversation so far, and we should keep it there.

carlonr

08-10-2010, 12:26 PM

Carl,

I never said it wasn't. My comment was in the context that if trainers are edgy about a surface or a track or a distance or a horse, there is usually very good underlying FACTS that they are privy to on a personal basis which allows them to make decisions. Why are trainers and owners edgy about synthetics if it is so great supposedly?? That was my question.Tom

If they have numbers that I can use to compare with other numbers, I'll be glad to look into it. Like i said, if synthetics are not safer than dirt, even if its a break even, I'll be all for returning to dirt. I will say this however, whether it's on dirt or synthetic, there are not many eastern based trainers willing to take on Zenyatta outside of the the BCC.

Tom[/QUOTE]

andymays

08-10-2010, 12:28 PM

Come on Andy. I didn't take it that way at all. He was just giving an example from his life where he had to have thick skin (literally). Let's not go down that path. It's been a pretty level-headed conversation so far, and we should keep it there.

About a month or so ago he brought the issue of Slavery into a thread where a discussion was going on about synthetic surfaces. He apologized afterward and that was appreciated. It looks like he may be headed in that direction again though. That's why I made the comments.

carlonr

08-10-2010, 12:32 PM

Carl, to the best of my knowledge everyone who posts here is for civil rights for all people. Suggesting otherwise is out of line.

So now you are equating people who disagree with you to those that were against civil rights for all. That's rich.

Do you guys ever stop with the drama? When are you and gm10 going to march in support of synthetic surfaces and for Zenyatta to run the United Nations?

I was only alluding to the fact that I'm pretty resilient when it comes to something I believe in. Like my right to have more data before I commit to taking a stand in regard to synthetics. It was a commentary on my stamina. I even said I was was thick skinned prior to the statement. I think you are the only person that took it any differently.

Deepsix

08-10-2010, 12:42 PM

andymays

08-10-2010, 12:47 PM

tucker6

08-10-2010, 12:49 PM

Sounds dangerous. ;) From Notorious AM. :)Do you resemble Mike Myers in any way??

tucker6

08-10-2010, 12:56 PM

More like this! ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSUXdWCq5kk

or maybe this:
Alex, I'll take Mike Myers for $200 please. :)

carlonr

08-10-2010, 01:00 PM

carlonr

08-10-2010, 01:03 PM

carlonr

08-10-2010, 01:15 PM

Pace Advantage isn't the general public. I think this board is way more informed than any other.

Carl, do you realize that almost every time you post something about Zenyatta you cost her another HOY vote. ;)

I could care less about the HOY. And I know the Mosses don't care.

andymays

08-10-2010, 01:17 PM

I could care less about the HOY. And I know the mosses con't care.

They could have fooled me and just about everyone else. I thought they were going to fall over in their chairs when Rachel was announced as HOY.

C'mon Carl. That statement is so wrong it's comical. :lol:

Tom

08-10-2010, 01:20 PM

Talk about thread drift......again.:rolleyes:

tucker6

08-10-2010, 01:21 PM

They could have fooled me and just about everyone else. I thought they were going to fall over in their chairs when Rachel was announced as HOY.

C'mon Carl. That statement is so wrong it's comical. :lol:
I don't know Andy. The most important thing is the undefeated record. Then comes HOY. If she retired 19-0 and missed the BCC and the HOY award, Jerry Moss would still sleep like a baby at night. Agree??

carlonr

08-10-2010, 01:21 PM

They could have fooled me and just about everyone else. I thought they were going to fall over in their chairs when Rachel was announced as HOY.

C'mon Carl. That statement is so wrong it's comical. :lol:

They are Breeder's Cup people. Even when Zenyatta retires, you'll be surprised how much they are into the Breeder's Cup. BTW, did anyone ever come up with a quote where the Mosses complained about HOY?

andymays

08-10-2010, 01:23 PM

They are Breeder's Cup people. Even when Zenyatta retires, you'll be surprised how much they are into the Breeder's Cup. BTW, did anyone ever come up with a quote where the Mosses complained about HOY?

It's becoming harder and harder to take you seriously.

Why did they even go to the Awards ceremony if the could care less about HOY?

tucker6

08-10-2010, 01:25 PM

They are Breeder's Cup people. Even when Zenyatta retires, you'll be surprised how much they are into the Breeder's Cup. BTW, did anyone ever come up with a quote where the Mosses complained about HOY?
yes, it was in another thread, and was addressed to you.

Phantombridgejumpe

08-10-2010, 01:39 PM

carlonr

08-10-2010, 01:46 PM

yes, it was in another thread, and was addressed to you.

found it an replied.

carlonr

08-10-2010, 01:48 PM

It's becoming harder and harder to take you seriously.

Why did they even go to the Awards ceremony if the could care less about HOY?

They could care less about HOY when compared to BCC. If you gave them a choice it would definitely be BCC

andymays

08-10-2010, 01:49 PM

My point was that the public is wrong 2 out of three times. What does that say about their opinion of Zenyatta?

It says nothing.

How they do at picking winners has little or nothing to do with their opinion of one particular horse.

Dude, you're missing my point.

The thread title implies that polls taken elsewhere have more infomed people participating in them than polls at Pace Advantage.

My point is that the opposite is true. There are more informed people participating here than anywhere else. Maybe it's my fault for not explaining in more detail earlier.

Does that make sense?

tzipi

08-10-2010, 01:49 PM

carlonr

08-10-2010, 01:51 PM

carlonr

08-10-2010, 01:54 PM

When she beats tough horses then I will be on her to win the BC Classic on dirt. But I'm not betting her to beat top males on dirt when all the connections have done is run her against low level horses.

I can't believe I saw people claiming on "polls" and other forums about what a great race and "proving race" the Clement was. Only one horse won a graded race(G2) in the last 10 races and the horse she had to battle to the wire couldn't even win a G3! "Proving race" Geez,pretty sad if you have to claim that. :rolleyes:
I really hope they don't go to the Zenyatta Stakes. The puff schedule last year really didn't hurt because of where and what the BC Classic was but this year I think it might hurt. JMO

Mike Smith will not go 6-12wide in the BCC. Zenyatta wins by 2 1/2 to 4 lengths.

carlonr

08-10-2010, 01:55 PM

Tom

08-10-2010, 01:57 PM

Dude, you're missing my point.

The thread title implies that polls taken elsewhere have more infomed people participating in them than polls at Pace Advantage.

My point is that the opposite is true. There are more informed people participating here than anywhere else. Maybe it's my fault for not explaining in more detail earlier.

Does that make sense?

No, it doesn't. We are not elitists here. What is the better barometer of PUBLIC OPINION?

I say the limited sampling of horse players represented here pales in comparison to the public at large ( no offense, PA, I agree the CREAM of the crop post here! :p )

Point is, what is better for the game as a whole? Our opinions or the general public? You want to tell Joe Race-bettor that he is not informed enough to matter?

carlonr

08-10-2010, 01:58 PM

Dude, you're missing my point.

The thread title implies that polls taken elsewhere have more infomed people participating in them than polls at Pace Advantage.

My point is that the opposite is true. There are more informed people participating here than anywhere else. Maybe it's my fault for not explaining in more detail earlier.

Does that make sense?

Less biased people on other sites. This site looses voters because of the strong biases of the moderators and some frequent posters. Paulicks is more of a new gathering site presenting all sides.

andymays

08-10-2010, 01:59 PM

No, it doesn't. We are not elitists here. What is the better barometer of PUBLIC OPINION?

I say the limited sampling of horse players represented here pales in comparison to the public at large ( no offense, PA, I agree the CREAM of the crop post here! :p)

Point is, what is better for the game as a whole? Our opinons or the general public?

Our opinions are much more informed that the public as a whole. I'm surprised you would differ.

andymays

08-10-2010, 02:00 PM

Less biased people on other sites. This site looses voters because of the strong biases of the moderators and some frequent posters. Paulicks is more of a new gathering site presenting all sides.

No, what you mean is that less informed people agree with you and more informed people disagree with you. You can spin your disrespect of the board all you want but you know exactly what you're doing.

The traffic here speaks volumes.

carlonr

08-10-2010, 02:03 PM

No, what you mean is that less informed people agree with you and more informed people disagree with you. You can spin your disrespect of the board all you want but you know exactly what you're doing.

I am not disrespecting the board. It is not a news gathering site like Paulick or Equidaily, nor does it pretend to be. I have seen nothing on either of those sites that tend to agree with me personally. I am saying that their purpose is different.

andymays

08-10-2010, 02:10 PM

I am not disrespecting the board. It is not a news gathering site like Paulick or Equidaily, nor does it pretend to be. I have seen nothing on either of those sites that tend to agree with me personally. I am saying that their purpose is different.

I might buy your story if you titled the thread Paulick Report Poll. You did not of course.

You titled it a Non Pace Advantage Poll.

Who's sh*ttin who carlon? :rolleyes:

The victim stuff gets old.

tzipi

08-10-2010, 02:13 PM

Mike Smith will not go 6-12wide in the BCC. Zenyatta wins by 2 1/2 to 4 lengths.

Well better run better because there will be no field of turf horses over a turf surface and no field of horses who can't win a G3 like the great Clement Hirsch. The connections could be taking way bigger purses and prestige with what they call the best but are staying against high allowance horses basically. Seems weird.

letswastemoney

08-10-2010, 02:14 PM

thaskalos

08-10-2010, 02:24 PM

The people that read Paulick Report are freakin mean!!!

When it was reported what Steve Byk said about Zenyatta in his argument with Davidowitz (I can't spell his name), there were comments under that article threatening violence against Byk.

You could argue that one half of the Zenyatta fanbase is almost insane when it comes to defending her....

It's like they can't accept people have other opinions.And you can't say the same about Zenyatta's critics?

I haven't read too many critical comments that would be called polite or dispassionate.

The Zenyatta comments claiming that she is the best ever, are vastly outnumbered by the ones claiming that she is similar to Peppers Pride...or that she is "nothing special".

There are "almost insane" people in both camps...IMO.

tzipi

08-10-2010, 02:24 PM

The people that read Paulick Report are freakin mean!!!

When it was reported what Steve Byk said about Zenyatta in his argument with Davidowitz (I can't spell his name), there were comments under that article threatening violence against Byk.

You could argue that one half of the Zenyatta fanbase is almost insane when it comes to defending her....

It's like they can't accept people have other opinions.

I agree. I think some of it comes from frustration though. On one board some guy was going nuts against people about how the Clement was a top race and a hard field and how the Pacific Classic is weak compared to her races at that time of the year :rolleyes: . I mean deep down you have to know the fields she's run against mostly. Shes a TALENT though,no doubt. Imagine the all time hype and her place in history if she was doing this against males and top races almost every race. It would be nuts but well deserved,I'll tell you that. Would've been great to watch too.

carlonr

08-10-2010, 02:28 PM

I might buy your story if you titled the thread Paulick Report Poll. You did not of course.

You titled it a Non Pace Advantage Poll.

Who's sh*ttin who carlon? :rolleyes:

The victim stuff gets old.

Thought it would draw more readers that way

thaskalos

08-10-2010, 02:29 PM

I agree. I think some of it comes from frustration though. On one board some guy was going nuts against people about how the Clement was a top race and a hard field and how the Pacific Classic is weak compared to her races at that time of the year :rolleyes: . I mean deep down you have to know the fields she's run against mostly. Shes a TALENT though,no doubt. Imagine the all time hype and her place in history if she was doing this against males and top races almost every race. It would be nuts but well deserved,I'll tell you that. Would've been great to watch too.Zenyatta is just a "talent"? How observant of you....

letswastemoney

08-10-2010, 02:30 PM

And you can't say the same about Zenyatta's critics?

I haven't read too many critical comments that would be called polite or dispassionate.

The Zenyatta comments claiming that she is the best ever, are vastly outnumbered by the ones claiming that she is similar to Peppers Pride...or that she is "nothing special".

There are "almost insane" people in both camps...IMO.I doubt Zenyatta fans claiming she is the best ever are outnumbered.

She wins every poll!! She wins polls on who is the best mare ever. She wins polls on who will win this years Classic. What poll hasn't Zenyatta won?

If the critics were larger in number, the polls would be...at least a bit closer.

But no, according to Hovdey's poll, Zenyatta is the best mare since 1960 by a very large margin! It was not even close.

andymays

08-10-2010, 02:30 PM

And you can't say the same about Zenyatta's critics?

I haven't read too many critical comments that would be called polite or dispassionate.

The Zenyatta comments claiming that she is the best ever, are vastly outnumbered by the ones claiming that she is similar to Peppers Pride...or that she is "nothing special".

There are "almost insane" people in both camps...IMO.

I would say that it's just the opposite. I think that other than here 99% of the debate is Zenyatta worship.

Nobody here hates Zenyatta and most people like myself think she's great for racing. My issues are with the connections going back on their word about campaing against the best all over the country. Instead they claim she's the best but run in races restricted to females. Given the fact that she's the reigning Breeders Cup Classic Champion I would say that this is very dissapointing.

andymays

08-10-2010, 02:31 PM

Thought it would draw more readers that way
you forgot to write wink wink ;) ;)

tucker6

08-10-2010, 02:31 PM

And you can't say the same about Zenyatta's critics?

I haven't read too many critical comments that would be called polite or dispassionate.

The Zenyatta comments claiming that she is the best ever, are vastly outnumbered by the ones claiming that she is similar to Peppers Pride...or that she is "nothing special".

There are "almost insane" people in both camps...IMO.
Then let me ask this question. In the context of history, and not counting wins, how is Zenyatta "special"?? Is it her speed? Her victories over quality fields?? Her challenging of all comers??? When you think of other greats of the past, what is the allure?? What makes Zenyatta special, her record?? If so, then she is similar to Peppers Pride. A better PP, but a similar horse to PP nonetheless. An unchallenged horse against a motley crew of mediocrity. Could she be special? Of course, maybe. But she's not been given the chance to be, and those who espouse her attributes don't know any more than I do. It's more wishing it were true than knowing it is true.

tucker6

08-10-2010, 02:34 PM

Zenyatta is just a "talent"? How observant of you....I believe he chose the right word. How can you know better when she hasn't been given the chance to go beyond talented to great??

tzipi

08-10-2010, 02:38 PM

Zenyatta is just a "talent"? How observant of you....

What's your point Thaskalos? Yeah she's a talent,like some other great horses. I said Curlin was a talent when he ran,not the greatest ever. You know what talent means? It's not a knock. Greatness is achieved by doing the impossible or against top level every race. That's my opinion. Where did I knock her? I only knock her connections.

If you want me to sit here are put her among Secretariat,Man O War,etc and what they did to make you happy. Sorry,I can't. Its my right. Doesn't knock her though. You can sit home and say she's the greatest ever and did the greatest ever. That's cool. Enjoy.

thaskalos

08-10-2010, 02:45 PM

I doubt Zenyatta fans claiming she is the best ever are outnumbered.

She wins every poll!! She wins polls on who is the best mare ever. She wins polls on who will win this years Classic. What poll hasn't Zenyatta won?

If the critics were larger in number, the polls would be...at least a bit closer.

But no, according to Hovdey's poll, Zenyatta is the best mare since 1960 by a very large margin! It was not even close. There are casual racing fans, and "real" racing fans.

The casual racing fans get interested whenever the next "wonder horse" shows up...garnering all the media attention. They buy into all the "hype"...and they pat themselves on the back, for witnessing the next Secretariat.

The "real" racing fan has seen it all before...and is not so easily impressed.

thaskalos

08-10-2010, 02:58 PM

Then let me ask this question. In the context of history, and not counting wins, how is Zenyatta "special"?? Is it her speed? Her victories over quality fields?? Her challenging of all comers??? When you think of other greats of the past, what is the allure?? What makes Zenyatta special, her record?? If so, then she is similar to Peppers Pride. A better PP, but a similar horse to PP nonetheless. An unchallenged horse against a motley crew of mediocrity. Could she be special? Of course, maybe. But she's not been given the chance to be, and those who espouse her attributes don't know any more than I do. It's more wishing it were true than knowing it is true.I will answer you as best I can:

The horse is being criticized because she runs in "restricted" races almost exclusively. 94.7%...somebody said.

What they forget to mention, is that these "restricted" races are still open to HALF the horse population. Let's forget for a moment that she ran in...and won, the BC Classic 2009...and assume that she remained strictly in F+M races...firmly establishing herself as the top runner of her gender.

Is that not special? Does that not "distance" her from the Peppers Prides of the world?

Why the outcry against her, for not racing against older males more often?

I know that Rachel defeated male 3 year olds...but there is a difference.

WE are not likely to see another mare run in back-to-back BC Classics in our lifetimes again...of that I am certain!

And to a grizzled, jaded, veteran horseplayer like myself...that's special too!

Tom

08-10-2010, 03:16 PM

Our opinions are much more informed that the public as a whole. I'm surprised you would differ.

Not my point. Who has the greater impact on the game, us or the general public? There is no need to convince us here to support racing, we need to get the general public involved.

tucker6

08-10-2010, 03:19 PM

I will answer you as best I can:

The horse is being criticized because she runs in "restricted" races almost exclusively. 94.7%...somebody said.

What they forget to mention, is that these "restricted" races are still open to HALF the horse population. Let's forget for a moment that she ran in...and won, the BC Classic 2009...and assume that she remained strictly in F+M races...firmly establishing herself as the top runner of her gender.

Is that not special? Does that not "distance" her from the Peppers Prides of the world?

Why the outcry against her, for not racing against older males more often?

I know that Rachel defeated male 3 year olds...but there is a difference.

WE are not likely to see another mare run in back-to-back BC Classics in our lifetimes again...of that I am certain!

And to a grizzled, jadded, veteran horseplayer like myself...that's special too!
Thanks for the response. I guess I don't consider that special based on what you wrote.

I consider the stirring Affirmed/Alydar races special, and the horses with it.

I consider the stretch dual between RTR and Curlin in the Belmont special, but not the horses.

I consider Dr Fager's commanding performance to set a one mile record special, and the body of his work agrees that he was special.

I consider John Henry with his 83 races and 39 victories special

I guess after writing all that, it appears our definitions of special differ. To me, special is either a singular achievement(s) over a race supported by the body of work over a lifetime. Zenyatta IMHO is like RTR or Curlin. She's had one special day (BCC in 2009), but nothing else. Are you special because of one day? Really??

FenceBored

08-10-2010, 03:24 PM

When she beats tough horses then I will be on her to win the BC Classic on dirt. But I'm not betting her to beat top males on dirt when all the connections have done is run her against low level horses.

I can't believe I saw people claiming on "polls" and other forums about what a great race and "proving race" the Clement was. Only one horse won a graded race(G2) in the last 10 races and the horse she had to battle to the wire couldn't even win a G3! "Proving race" Geez,pretty sad if you have to claim that. :rolleyes:
I really hope they don't go to the Zenyatta Stakes. The puff schedule last year really didn't hurt because of where and what the BC Classic was but this year I think it might hurt. JMO

I've got the lifetime pps for the Clement Hirsch from DRF and would like to point out that the bolded phrase is unnecessary; except for Made For Magic's G2 none of those girls has ever won a graded race.

tzipi

08-10-2010, 03:25 PM

I will answer you as best I can:

The horse is being criticized because she runs in "restricted" races almost exclusively. 94.7%...somebody said.

What they forget to mention, is that these "restricted" races are still open to HALF the horse population. Let's forget for a moment that she ran in...and won, the BC Classic 2009...and assume that she remained strictly in F+M races...firmly establishing herself as the top runner of her gender.

Is that not special? Does that not "distance" her from the Peppers Prides of the world?

Why the outcry against her, for not racing against older males more often?

I know that Rachel defeated male 3 year olds...but there is a difference.

WE are not likely to see another mare run in back-to-back BC Classics in our lifetimes again...of that I am certain!

And to a grizzled, jaded, veteran horseplayer like myself...that's special too!

I totally agree she's should not be compared to Peppers Pride as a horse. No way! Also I think most know Zens races are open to alot but I think people want to see her or her connections I should say go after top races and males in other places. The races like the Clement attracts high allowance horses. People want a Pacific Classic race with Zen not Clement race competition.

I think we'll see back to back BC runs by a mare because of poly.
What if polyturf was around for Miss Alleged? She could've ran in the Classic and won like she did the Turf Classic. Then they could've pointed it to her the following year when she stayed out west. Polytrack will opens it up. You never know ;)

tzipi

08-10-2010, 03:28 PM

I've got the lifetime pps for the Clement Hirsch from DRF and would like to point out that the bolded phrase is unnecessary; except for Made For Magic's G2 none of those girls has ever won a graded race.

None of them won a graded race in their last 10 races except for one(a G2). Why was that part unnecessary? Unless you mean I should've said EVER won a graded race. I didn't see their whole PP's. So I didn't say that just in case.

thaskalos

08-10-2010, 03:31 PM

Thanks for the response. I guess I don't consider that special based on what you wrote.

I consider the stirring Affirmed/Alydar races special, and the horses with it.

I consider the stretch dual between RTR and Curlin in the Belmont special, but not the horses.

I consider Dr Fager's commanding performance to set a one mile record special, and the body of his work agrees that he was special.

I consider John Henry with his 83 races and 39 victories special

I guess after writing all that, it appears our definitions of special differ. To me, special is either a singular achievement(s) over a race supported by the body of work over a lifetime. Zenyatta IMHO is like RTR or Curlin. She's had one special day (BCC in 2009), but nothing else. Are you special because of one day? Really??

In our country...the very best fillies and mares in the history of the sport, never had to go up against the top older males on a repeated basis. Why should Zenyatta be any different?

Because some lunatics have decided that she is the best of all time?

I have a question for you:

If Zenyatta wins the BC Classic again this year...making it back-to-back Classics victories on two different surfaces...is she special THEN?

tucker6

08-10-2010, 03:35 PM

In our country...the very best fillies and mares in the history of the sport, never had to go up against the top older males on a repeated basis. Why should Zenyatta be any different?

Because some lunatics have decided that she is the best of all time?

I have a question for you:

If Zenyatta wins the BC Classic again this year...making it back-to-back Classics victories on two different surfaces...is she special THEN?
20-0 with back-to-back BCC victories against older males on two different surfaces would indeed make her special. However, in my opinion she isn't special yet nor has she won this year's classic. We've a long way to go, and I don't believe she loads into that starting gate.

Tom

08-10-2010, 03:36 PM

If Zenyatta wins the BC Classic again this year...making it back-to-back Classics victories on two different surfaces...is she special THEN?

It all hinges on her Beyer.

tucker6

08-10-2010, 03:37 PM

In our country...the very best fillies and mares in the history of the sport, never had to go up against the top older males on a repeated basis. Why should Zenyatta be any different?

Also, not many are asking her to run against older males repeatedly. Most are asking that she run against top class females repeatedly, and have her connections quit ducking the competition.

thaskalos

08-10-2010, 03:44 PM

It all hinges on her Beyer.You are joking...but just watch. It's gonna come to that...I'm sure of it.

tucker6

08-10-2010, 03:46 PM

She's had one special day (BCC in 2009), but nothing else. Are you special because of one day? Really??

What about her BC victory in 2008[/QUOTE]Just like in 2009, it was a race on her preferred surface where the best competition was groomed on another surface. It was nothing special either. Are we anointing every BC race ever run as special?? I thought special was defined as doing something out of the ordinary. Beating females on poly isn't special.

carlonr

08-10-2010, 03:48 PM

She's had one special day (BCC in 2009), but nothing else. Are you special because of one day? Really??

Excerpt:

Smith angled Zenyatta 6-wide and she responded, surging to the front inside the 3/16 pole and drawing clear to win by 1 1/2 lengths over Cocoa Beach in 1:46.85. The time was just 5/100 second off the track record. It was another 1 1/2 lengths back to Music Note third.

carlonr

08-10-2010, 03:49 PM

What about her BC victory in 2008Just like in 2009, it was a race on her preferred surface where the best competitio

5/100 off the track record!

carlonr

08-10-2010, 03:52 PM

Just like in 2009, it was a race on her preferred surface where the best competition was groomed on another surface. It was nothing special either. Are we anointing every BC race ever run as special?? I thought special was defined as doing something out of the ordinary. Beating females on poly isn't special.

Zenyatta's preferred surface is Hollywood Park which closely resembles dirt. Santa Anita and Del Mar even though they are both synthetic surfaces are not her preferred surface. And she runs better on dirt than anything else!

thaskalos

08-10-2010, 03:52 PM

Also, not many are asking her to run against older males repeatedly. Most are asking that she run against top class females repeatedly, and have her connections quit ducking the competition. You really think that there is a trainer out there...who is eager to get his filly or mare in a race against Zenyatta?

Didn't you see how the competition lined up, when she showed up on the dirt at Oaklawn earlier this year?

No filly or mare beats Zenyatta at a mile and an eight+...and all the trainers know it!

tucker6

08-10-2010, 03:53 PM

Just like in 2009, it was a race on her preferred surface where the best competitio

5/100 off the track record!
Are you kidding me! One, Cocoa Beach finished .35 seconds off the track record and Music note third was .65 seconds off the record. Doesn't that tell you the track was running maybe a little fast that day. What were the beyer figures for the race??

FenceBored

08-10-2010, 03:54 PM

None of them won a graded race in their last 10 races except for one(a G2). Why was that part unnecessary? Unless you mean I should've said EVER won a graded race. I didn't see their whole PP's. So I didn't say that just in case.

All I'm saying is that you don't have to use the qualifier "in their last 10 races." It doesn't matter how far back in their careers you go, there's still just that one graded win by Made for Magic between them.

carlonr

08-10-2010, 03:55 PM

tucker6

08-10-2010, 03:57 PM

You really think that there is a trainer out there...who is eager to get his filly or mare in a race against Zenyatta?

Didn't you see how the competition lined up, when she showed up on the dirt at Oaklawn earlier this year?

No filly or mare beats Zenyatta at a mile and an eight+...and all the trainers know it!
All I know is, is that Rachel signed up for the Personal Ensign early to provide plenty of warning, and Shirreffs immediately ducked Zenyatta stage left. Instead, Zenyatta, a special horse I might add, barely beat a G3 horse, if that. So, don't try the "everyone runs from Zenyatta" baloney. She's beatable. You know it. I know it. Moss know it. Sherriffs know it. Let's cut to the chase. Have her show up in the Beldame and face off against RA. If she stays in CA to race in the Lady's Secret, then we'll know they aren't serious about Zenyatta's legacy.

FenceBored

08-10-2010, 03:58 PM

She did not duck RA on dirt. RA failed to show up. The Mosses show up because they are a class act!

Griping about the balloting while still at an awards ceremony when you don't get the prize you wanted generally isn't seen as being classy.

Hanover1

08-10-2010, 03:59 PM

Do you have any examples of these most excellent plays?

Seems one would have to compile stats that show equal numbers of east coast horses shipping west? Something outside of BC day the last 2 years, is usually an exclusive event?

Hanover1

08-10-2010, 04:00 PM

All I know is, is that Rachel signed up for the Personal Ensign early to provide plenty of warning, and Shirreffs immediately ducked Zenyatta stage left. Instead, Zenyatta, a special horse I might add, barely beat a G3 horse, if that. So, don't try the "everyone runs from Zenyatta" baloney. She's beatable. You know it. I know it. Moss know it. Sherriffs know it. Let's cut to the chase. Have her show up in the Beldame and face off against RA. If she stays in CA to race in the Lady's Secret, then we'll know they aren't serious about Zenyatta's legacy.
What is your response if she wins BCC yet again?

tzipi

08-10-2010, 04:01 PM

She did not duck RA on dirt. RA failed to show up. The Mosses show up because they are a class act!

"Class act" for showing up in a early April race over overmatched girls?

Rachels connections didn't race in April after a huge layoff. She wasn't even back to running in form yet. Why rush a horse who's not ready to run? It's now August and everyone is pretty much in top form. RA is running in a top 1 1/4 race at the top meet waiting for takers. 1 1/4..the distance they say Zens suppose to kill RA at on dirt, a surface Zen likes.

tucker6

08-10-2010, 04:01 PM

Zenyatta's preferred surface is Hollywood Park which closely resembles dirt. Santa Anita and Del Mar even though they are both synthetic surfaces are not her preferred surface. And she runs better on dirt than anything else!I see you and others saying this, yet given the chance, Moss and Sherriffs seem to disagree with running on it. Could you be incorrect in your statement??

carlonr

08-10-2010, 04:02 PM

tucker6

08-10-2010, 04:03 PM

What is your response if she wins BCC yet again?I answered that earlier in this or another thread. I said that if she could beat older males two years running on two different surfaces then she would be special. I just don't think she will, nor do I believe she enters the starting gate for the BCC.

tzipi

08-10-2010, 04:04 PM

RA can enter The Zenyatta, can she not. This insane notion that a BCC champion must travel anywhere is just that insane. She's undefeated, and the BCC champion. Let any challenger come and see what they can do. RA has raced and won on synthetics!

Where do you get this stuff. It makes it seems so much worse! :D

All other BC Champions have travelled and ran races but Zen can't? It's "insane" to think she has too :rolleyes: :bang: "She doesn't have to travel". Yeah they never do.
RA is entered in a top 1 1/4 race at the top meet. Zen can enter that instead of Clement against allowance horses.

thaskalos

08-10-2010, 04:06 PM

tucker6

08-10-2010, 04:06 PM

RA can enter The Zenyatta, can she not. This insane notion that a BCC champion must travel anywhere is just that insane. She's undefeated, and the BCC champion. Let any challenger come and see what they can do. RA has raced and won on synthetics!I believe the reigning HOY is held in higher regard and esteem that the reigning BCC champion. No??

Zenyatta needs to take the crown away from Rachel. Rachel should not have to beg for the challenge. :bang: Sport is short for sporting. The Mosses seem to lack that facet of living.

carlonr

08-10-2010, 04:06 PM

Where do you get this stuff. It makes it seems so much worse! :D

All other BC Champions have travelled and ran races but Zen can't? :rolleyes: "She doesn't have to travel". Yeah they never do.
RA is entered in a top 1 1/4 race at the top meet. Zen can enter that instead of Clement against allowance horses.

Get this: She is undefeated 18 (18-0-0) What other BCC champions went undefeated.

carlonr

08-10-2010, 04:07 PM

tucker6

08-10-2010, 04:08 PM

Her legacy, and her place in history, will rest on her performance in this year's BC Classic...where, IMO, she will establish that she is the best horse currently in training...and the best mare in recent memory!

In our country...that is!... and if she doesn't win, and finishes say 5th. What will you say?? Is she still special, or a very good horse that gave us good memories??

FenceBored

08-10-2010, 04:09 PM

thaskalos

08-10-2010, 04:09 PM

I believe the reigning HOY is held in higher regard and esteem that the reigning BCC champion. No??

Zenyatta needs to take the crown away from Rachel. Rachel should not have to beg for the challenge. :bang: Sport is short for sporting. The Mosses seem to lack that facet of living.She doesn't need to take the crown from Rachel. Zenyatta has her own crown.

Haven't you heard? She is the "Queen" of racing!

tzipi

08-10-2010, 04:12 PM

Get this: She is undefeated 18 (18-0-0) What other BCC champions went undefeated.

No other BBC winners ran against low level overmatched girls 99% of the time. You don't know competition Carl or racing and your posts prove that. If other greats stayed in one place running against allowance and G3 horses almost every race. There would be tons of undefeated horses in history.

You could almost say Cigar was an undefeated horse after moving to the dirt and he traveled everywhere with his stellar record. Even overseas to win. Moss's never would've took the route Paulson did. NO WAY. The greats travel.

tucker6

08-10-2010, 04:12 PM

Get this: She is undefeated 18 (18-0-0) What other BCC champions went undefeated.You worshippers have fallen off a ledge and your only salvation is that scrawny branch sticking out of the cliff. Let's call that branch Mr 18-0. What happens to all you worshippers when a horse comes along at the BCC and cuts the branch off at the base?? Or better yet, Sherriffs comes along and says that Zenyatta is too tired to continue the campaign into the BC weekend. All of you would then crash to the bottom in a heap. I can't wait.

carlonr

08-10-2010, 04:21 PM

If she stays in CA to race in the Lady's Secret, then we'll know they aren't serious about Zenyatta's legacy.

There is no Lady's Secret race in California!

08-10-2010, 04:24 PM

There is no Lady's Secret race in California!

Sure there is...it is a prep for the Distaff.

tucker6

08-10-2010, 04:25 PM

There is no Lady's Secret race in California.
I refuse to acknowledge the new name. I also call the Ladies Classic the Distaff. I prefer to honor history in this regard. Once gone, you have nothing left. Maybe if Zenyatta keeps ducking the competition, they can rename it the Fowling Stakes.

carlonr

08-10-2010, 04:25 PM

Sure there is...it is a prep for the Distaff. Where is it held?

FenceBored

08-10-2010, 04:26 PM

There is no Lady's Secret race in California!

Which just demonstrates the class of California racing officialdom.

Hanover1

08-10-2010, 04:27 PM

I answered that earlier in this or another thread. I said that if she could beat older males two years running on two different surfaces then she would be special. I just don't think she will, nor do I believe she enters the starting gate for the BCC.

We agree to disagree on the last part of your post here......

tucker6

08-10-2010, 04:27 PM

Where is it held?you need a tranquilizer shot. This is not a point of contention that should cause a rabies outbreak. Besides, you need to go over to the other thread and answer post 197. You keep missing it for some reason.

tucker6

08-10-2010, 04:28 PM

We agree to disagree on the last part of your post here......Fair enough.

08-10-2010, 04:29 PM

Where is it held?

Santa Anita, Oak Tree meeting, though I guess it might move to Hollywood because it might rain.

thaskalos

08-10-2010, 04:30 PM

... and if she doesn't win, and finishes say 5th. What will you say?? Is she still special, or a very good horse that gave us good memories??I am going to say that she is still a great horse...who happend to just lose a race.

It happens to all the greats...:)

carlonr

08-10-2010, 04:32 PM

Santa Anita, Oak Tree meeting, though I guess it might move to Hollywood because it might rain.

Wrong! There is not Lady's Secret race in the stae of California! it was renamed::

The Zenyatta!

08-10-2010, 04:32 PM

I am going to say that she is still a great horse...who happend to just lose a race.

It happens to all the greats...

I will say she was the best synthetic horse in history, and decent enough on dirt to win a few but not the same horse on that surface.

08-10-2010, 04:32 PM

Wrong! There is not Lady's Secret race in the stae of California! it was renamed::

The Zenyatta!

You are slower than erosion. It was a joke, thus my use of the name Distaff.

carlonr

08-10-2010, 04:34 PM

This is fun! Old CJ just walked right in to that one!

08-10-2010, 04:35 PM

This is fun! Old CJ just walked right in to that one!

Holy snikes, you are even slower than I thought, which is actually staggering.

thaskalos

08-10-2010, 04:35 PM

I will say she was the best synthetic horse in history, and decent enough on dirt to win a few but not the same horse on that surface.Question for you Cj...

If she wins this year's BC Classic...is she the best mare you have ever seen?

08-10-2010, 04:36 PM

Question for you Cj...

If she wins this year's BC Classic...is she the best mare you have ever seen?

I won't know until I see how the race unfolded. It would be tough to pass Go For Wand among a select few others.

carlonr

08-10-2010, 04:37 PM

On that note I'm off to start handicapping the pick 6 carryover where the turf meets the surf!

thaskalos

08-10-2010, 04:38 PM

I won't know until I see how the race unfolded. It would be tough to pass Go For Wand among a select few others. Tough crowd...

08-10-2010, 04:40 PM

Tough crowd...

I'm not saying no, but if there were a suicidal three horse duel and she comes from last and wins with a 104 Beyer, no way in hell. If she hit the 115 mark, absolutely she'd be right there.

It is difficult to compare different generations, so I use the clock. It isn't perfect by any means.

GaryG

08-10-2010, 04:41 PM

She is one short of Peppers Pride right? So, she can tie PP with a win in that Oak Tree race they mentioned before getting hammered at Churchill trying for #20.

thaskalos

08-10-2010, 05:18 PM

She is one short of Peppers Pride right? So, she can tie PP with a win in that Oak Tree race they mentioned before getting hammered at Churchill trying for #20. Are you of the opinion, that she is "nothing special" also, Gary?

tzipi

08-10-2010, 05:33 PM

Are you of the opinion, that she is "nothing special" also, Gary?

Thaskalos you keep saying some people are claiming she's nothing special. You accused me of it because I said Zen is talented. I guess talented means crap to you. I don't see people including myself knocking Zenyatta as much as I do people knocking her connections. I mean how insane is being a fan if you have to attack people for not syaing she'll win or race or she's Secretariat.

By the way from our original convo because you claimed I trashed Zenyatta as nothing special because I said "Zen's talented". POST #83
(Dictionary)TALENTED: Having special ability,gifted.

Yeah real knock on Zen :rolleyes:

Dahoss9698

08-10-2010, 05:34 PM

Question for you Cj...

If she wins this year's BC Classic...is she the best mare you have ever seen?

Help me understand something. Why do Zenyatta fans need everyone to think she's the greatest ever? Why is the general attitude that they are seeing something others seem to be missing?

tucker6

08-10-2010, 05:52 PM

Thaskalos you keep saying some people are claiming she's nothing special. You accused me of it because I said Zen is talented. I guess talented means crap to you. I don't see people including myself knocking Zenyatta as much as I do people knocking her connections. I mean how insane is being a fan if you have to attack people for not syaing she'll win or race or she's Secretariat.

By the way from our original convo because you claimed I trashed Zenyatta as nothing special because I said "Zen's talented". POST #83
(Dictionary)TALENTED: Having special ability,gifted.

Yeah real knock on Zen :rolleyes:
you are a hater sir. Repent at the Zen altar, then duck left. ;)

tzipi

08-10-2010, 06:03 PM

you are a hater sir. Repent at the Zen altar, then duck left. ;)

:D . Yes,I will repent for my horrible misuse of the word "talented".

BluegrassProf

08-10-2010, 06:19 PM

Wrong! There is not Lady's Secret race in the stae of California! it was renamed::

The Zenyatta!
I swear, it has GOT to be you in that vid CJ posted the other day. Gotta gotta gotta b. C'mon, man - own up. ;)

In all seriousness: duder, you're flailing around so damned hard in these threads that you're looking like the affeminite figure skating fan that just knows Johnny Weir deserves the gold EVERY TIME. You know, because he's just dreamy, and you love him to death. And that's totally cool, but honestly: it's a bit over-the-top, particularly when we all know there are Lysaceks out there.

Yet again, a quickie snack of some calm rationality (perhaps with a side of perspective) would do wonders, guaranteed...

thaskalos

08-10-2010, 07:10 PM

Help me understand something. Why do Zenyatta fans need everyone to think she's the greatest ever? Why is the general attitude that they are seeing something others seem to be missing?Enlighten me Dahoss...

The horse is the best female horse in the country...and she is trying to accomplish something that no other mare has EVER even attempted to do...which is, win 2 BC Classics back to back, on two different surfaces.

In an answer to a prior question, Cj replied that - if Zenyatta get's soundly beaten in this year's Classic - she will go down as a great "synthetic track" horse, who was not nearly as good on the dirt.

I followed up by asking for his opinion...in case Zenyatta WON in the Classic.

What did I do wrong?

FenceBored

08-10-2010, 07:11 PM

The first Breeder's Cup was held in 1984. The oldest US bred in the major races was 5 (therefore foaled in 1979).

In the crop years 1979-2007 there were just over a million thoroughbred foals registered. Whatever you want to say about Breeders Cup participants and Breeders Cup winners, none of them has yet to achieve this feat: 19-19-0-0. Only one horse has done this. Only one horse deserves the title. One horse who deserves your respect.

Pepper's Pride
One in a Million

thaskalos

08-10-2010, 07:14 PM

:D . Yes,I will repent for my horrible misuse of the word "talented".Tzipi...by saying that Zenyatta is just "talented"...you are putting her on the same level with dozens of other horses on the scene today...and that is an injustice.

tzipi

08-10-2010, 07:20 PM

Tzipi...by saying that Zenyatta is just "talented"...you are putting her on the same level with dozens of other horses on the scene today...and that is an injustice.

No it's not! Look up the word talent. Jesus,some people are nuts. If you don't say "greatest ever" or whatever crap you want people jump on you. She's talented. It means special and gifted. That's what I say she is. If you or they want more than they can run against top fields and not against allowance horses in August four races into the year. Secretariat,Man O War,Citation,etc,etc were not running against allowance horses in their races. I'll let her run her year out before I say what I think her career was. My opinion.

I don't even knock her. I only knock her camp and I'm doing an "injustice" to Zen by saying she's one talented horse. Geez this is crazy. :rolleyes:

boogazie

08-10-2010, 07:22 PM

tucker6

08-10-2010, 07:22 PM

Enlighten me Dahoss...

The horse is the best female horse in the country...
She is neither the best female or the best horse in the country. Until she is dethroned (if ever), the best of both sexes is Rachel Alexandra. She's the reigning HOY in a landslide. That's why Zenyatta needs to challenge Rachel and not the other way around. If you want to be the champ, ya need to beat the champ. Quit the ducking already, and get the hell east to Belmont for the Beldame.

tucker6

08-10-2010, 07:24 PM

Do you people who use Pepper's Pride name seriously consider her to be close to Zenyatta? Don't say "based on XYZ's argument etc.".. do you yourself consider her to be almost as good or better than Zenyatta?Since you asked, maybe you can answer the question I posed yesterday, and which no Zenyatta-ite chose to answer.

Is Zenyatta closer in skill to Pepper's Pride or Secretariat?? And then answer why??

tzipi

08-10-2010, 07:24 PM

Do you people who use Pepper's Pride name seriously consider her to be close to Zenyatta? Don't say "based on XYZ's argument etc.".. do you yourself consider her to be almost as good or better than Zenyatta?

That started I think because a poster(Carlonr) on many threads said,"Zenyatta's the greatest ever because she's undefeated!" and that it's not about the level of competition she faces almost every race. So by his rules Pepper's Pride is better. So I'm sure that's where it came from.

tucker6

08-10-2010, 07:27 PM

Tzipi...by saying that Zenyatta is just "talented"...you are putting her on the same level with dozens of other horses on the scene today...and that is an injustice.
She's better than "dozens", but if she faced the top 20 in the country on a regular basis, she'd have a winning, but not overwhelmingly great record. That's on dirt. On syn, she'd do better as shown in the BCC.

thaskalos

08-10-2010, 07:28 PM

Thaskalos you keep saying some people are claiming she's nothing special. You accused me of it because I said Zen is talented. I guess talented means crap to you. I don't see people including myself knocking Zenyatta as much as I do people knocking her connections. I mean how insane is being a fan if you have to attack people for not syaing she'll win or race or she's Secretariat.

I never attack anyone. I only disagree...usually in a very polite manner.

If you want to see attacks...I should forward you some of the PMs I have received from a few members of this board...for nothing but expressing my honest opinions.

tzipi

08-10-2010, 07:35 PM

I never attack anyone. I only disagree...usually in a very polite manner.

If you want to see attacks...I should forward you some of the PMs I have received from a few members of this board...for nothing but expressing my honest opinions.

Well I haven't PM'd you and haven't called you names. Just posting my opinions to you here and saying the word talent is a compliment. You jumped on me for using "talented." Weird. It's a bit nuts the backlash from people if you dont say "greatest ever". She's not. She's very talented though. A great word. She's beaten mostly overmatched girls in one state. She has a BC win on polyturf in a field full of turf horses. Not a true BC Classic dirt race to me. Look at the fields before 2009's field. On dirt,no turf horses.
She just in her 4th race of the year in August faced allowance horses! What do you want me to say about that?? Why are they staying away from males..or forget that,even top females? Her connections know what they are doing. Look at the talent level they put her against. Sorry,not saying "greatest ever". NO educated horseplayer who knows the sport is going to say her schedule and opponents were and are tougher than Secretariat's,Man O War's,Citation's,etc,etc.

thaskalos

08-10-2010, 07:37 PM

Since you asked, maybe you can answer the question I posed yesterday, and which no Zenyatta-ite chose to answer.

Is Zenyatta closer in skill to Pepper's Pride or Secretariat?? And then answer why??You didn't pose it as a question; you offered it as an answer.

Any answer given is strictly an opinion...and as such...it cannot be proven to be right OR wrong.

tucker6

08-10-2010, 07:45 PM

You didn't pose it as a question; you offered it as an answer.

Any answer given is strictly an opinion...and as such...it cannot be proven to be right OR wrong.You must be Jerry Moss because you duck really well.

It was a simple question really. Let me ask it another way. 10F on dirt. All horses in perfect health with a clean start. Eight horses each race. Which would be the easier task?

1. Pepper's Pride beating Zenyatta

2. Zenyatta beating Secretariat

Note: Secretariat is not in race one and PP is not in race two. Z is in both.

thaskalos

08-10-2010, 07:53 PM

Well I haven't PM'd you and haven't called you names. Just posting my opinions to you here and saying the word talent is a compliment. You jumped on me for using "talented." Weird. It's a bit nuts the backlash from people if you dont say "greatest ever". She's not. She's very talented though. A great word. She's beaten mostly overmatched girls in one state. She has a BC win on polyturf in a field full of turf horses. Not a true BC Classic dirt race to me. Look at the fields before 2009's field. On dirt,no turf horses.
She just in her 4th race of the year in August faced allowance horses! What do you want me to say about that?? Why are they staying away from males..or forget that,even top females? Her connections know what they are doing. Look at the talent level they put her against. Sorry,not saying "greatest ever". NO educated horseplayer who knows the sport is going to say her schedule and opponents were and are tougher than Secretariat's,Man O War's,Citation's,etc,etc.Tzipi...I have been very active on this board for the last few months...and my intention is never to offend. I always try to fully explain my opinions...in fact, some of my posts are among the longest ones to be found on this board.

I don't show up just to "piss" people off...nor is Zenyatta the only thing I talk about.

I am an experienced horseplayer, and I enjoy the "give and take" that this site provides. I am not attacking you, or jumping on you...and if that's the impression I gave...I apologize.

These arguments that we are presenting here are opinions...not facts. And as opinions...thay cannot be proven or disproven.

Without differences of opinion, there are no discussions...or horseracing, for that matter...

tucker6

08-10-2010, 07:54 PM

tzipi

08-10-2010, 07:57 PM

Tzipi...I have been very active on this board for the last few months...and my intention is never to offend. I always try to fully explain my opinions...in fact, some of my posts are among the longest ones to be found on this board.

I don't show up just to "piss" people off...nor is Zenyatta the only thing I talk about.

I am an experienced horseplayer, and I enjoy the "give and take" that this site provides. I am not attacking you, or jumping on you...and if that's the impression I gave...I apologize.

These arguments that we are presenting here are opinions...not facts. And as opinions...thay cannot be proven or disproven.

Without differences of opinion, there are no discussions...or horseracing, for that matter...

Thask I never attacked you or said anything remotely bad about you.. I just said,saying Zens talented is a compliment. You seemed to get angry and made it out like somehow I was against Zen for saying that. That's all. Doesn;t seem right. I know you not being mean spirited. It's a discussion, I agree. I like Zen,don't like connections or them taking on allowance horses at this point. We're fine Thas. Enjoy your night. We never had a problem.

thaskalos

08-10-2010, 07:57 PM

You must be Jerry Moss because you duck really well.

It was a simple question really. Let me ask it another way. 10F on dirt. All horses in perfect health with a clean start. Eight horses each race. Which would be the easier task?

1. Pepper's Pride beating Zenyatta

2. Zenyatta beating Secretariat

Note: Secretariat is not in race one and PP is not in race two. Z is in both. Both 1. and 2. are impossible to do IMO, Tucker.

But if you think that Peppers Pride is closer to Zenyatta, than Zenyatta is to Secretariat...then I disagree with you strongly.

If only there was some way for us to settle this...

You want to arm wrestle?

tucker6

08-10-2010, 08:04 PM

Both 1. and 2. are impossible to do IMO, Tucker.

But if you think that Peppers Pride is closer to Zenyatta, than Zenyatta is to Secretariat...than I disagree with you strongly.

If only there was some way for us to settle this...

You want to arm wrestle?Maybe. You seem old and weak. I like that in my competitions.

FenceBored

08-10-2010, 08:05 PM

Do you people who use Pepper's Pride name seriously consider her to be close to Zenyatta? Don't say "based on XYZ's argument etc.".. do you yourself consider her to be almost as good or better than Zenyatta?

:confused: Does this really require a serious answer?

Pepper's Pride as a compeitor was a nice horse, maybe a stakes horse in non-NM bred company. I read something Alan Porter wrote a few years ago where he said he thought she could have won a graded stake. <Shrug> Anything's possible I guess. As I said, a nice horse. And yet, given the manner in which she was campaigned (i.e. keep her in NM F/M company), she was able to win 19 straight and better than $1m. Does that make her an "all time great?" No. She's memorable for her streak, but not memorable for her excellence. The streak makes her special, and for the 6 weeks or so, one in a million. When (note I did not say if) Zenyatta ties her she'll lose that extra-specialness, but retain some cachet as being the first US based horse of the modern era to go undefeated that long.

Zenyatta, on the other hand, is a genuine champion, at least two to three classes above Pepper's Pride. Like PP the streak makes her more special, but like PP it doesn't make her "the best horse who ever raced." To get that title you have to do it the old fashioned way: earn it.

I'll deal with the question of Zenyatta's campaign in relation to Pepper's Pride and others in a different post later.

thaskalos

08-10-2010, 08:06 PM

Maybe. You seem old and weak. I like that in my competitions.Just like Zenyatta...picking on the weaklings...:)

gm10

08-10-2010, 08:07 PM

When she beats tough horses then I will be on her to win the BC Classic on dirt. But I'm not betting her to beat top males on dirt when all the connections have done is run her against low level horses.

I can't believe I saw people claiming on "polls" and other forums about what a great race and "proving race" the Clement was. Only one horse won a graded race(G2) in the last 10 races and the horse she had to battle to the wire couldn't even win a G3! "Proving race" Geez,pretty sad if you have to claim that. :rolleyes:
I really hope they don't go to the Zenyatta Stakes. The puff schedule last year really didn't hurt because of where and what the BC Classic was but this year I think it might hurt. JMO

actually she ran the second fastest last fraction ever over course & distance on Saturday (she holds the record for fastest late fraction as well of course - the fractions are adjusted for weight, age, DTV)

her, Blame and Lucky are simply a cut above in the Classic (apart from Gitano Hernando perhaps, if he makes it back to the track in time)

tzipi

08-10-2010, 08:09 PM

actually she ran the second fastest last fraction ever over course & distance on Saturday (she holds the record for fastest late fraction as well of course - the fractions are adjusted for weight, age, DTV)

her, Blame and Lucky are simply a cut above in the Classic (apart from Gitano Hernando perhaps, if he makes it back to the track in time)

After all the posts..... ahh forget it. :rolleyes:

the little guy

08-10-2010, 08:23 PM

08-10-2010, 09:24 PM

Enlighten me Dahoss...

The horse is the best female horse in the country...and she is trying to accomplish something that no other mare has EVER even attempted to do...which is, win 2 BC Classics back to back, on two different surfaces.

These are the things those that don't believe Zenyatta is the second coming of Ruffian and Secretariat mixed into one get annoyed about. First, we don't know she is the best female horse in the country. Best on rubber, sure. On dirt, I don't know. Is she better than Rachel? I don't know. Better than Blind Luck? Life at Ten?

Second, you leave out little details that aren't really little. She won the Classic, but it was on a different surface for the first time. Females beat males on turf much more often than dirt, and I think almost anyone can agree that synthetics are much more turf like than dirt like, right? Don't you think that is part of why she won the Classic? Isn't it at least worth mentioning?

08-10-2010, 09:25 PM

I can't speak for others here, but I am shocked, shocked I tell you, that gm10 didn't keep his word that he was leaving.

I'm more shocked he mentioned Gito Hernando as some horse that would have a prayer in the Classic.

PaceAdvantage

08-10-2010, 09:39 PM

You won't get any objective debate on surfaces (or speed figures, or Zenyatta, or a lot of other things) in this place.You really should stop lying. You get nothing but objective debate.

You get people who think synthetics are fine and dandy debating with folks who think they suck.

You get people who think Zenyatta is the best horse who ever lived debating with those who think she is an amazingly talented mare who has yet to prove she is anywhere near the best horse who ever lived.

Where exactly is there no objective debate?

Do I delete posts that support synthetics? Has carlonr ever had ANY of his posts or threads deleted?

Have any Zenaytta supporters ever had their threads or posts altered or deleted?

Please stop the bullshit and go back to selling your figures.

PaceAdvantage

08-10-2010, 09:43 PM

Carlonr, I've concluded that this site (PA) relies/benefits on the number of "views" because the site has evolved/matured and advertising income is directly related to the stories/topics posted: ie, churn. That is the RayPaulick model. Hang in there Carlonr, you are providing 'another' view and your jousting with some of the more 'notorious' posters here DOES help Pace gain more churn/advertising dollars. AndyMays is instrumental in hyping controversial topics and he ought to get some fee/commission from PA and Paulick. lolDeepsix. Another genius who is under a seriously misinformed impression.

Aren't you the guy who lives only to hassle Igeteven (Lester)? What are you doing in a non-Lester thread? This is very unlike you.

Your M.O. has already been well established, and it is highly disturbing (not to say some of Lester's threads aren't irritating as well, but you have become his professional PaceAdvantage stalker.)

Robert Goren

08-10-2010, 09:45 PM

We need to find the 2% that voted for Rail Trip and give them a life time free pass to any race track in the country. And maybe even throw in cab fare as well.;)

Tom

08-10-2010, 09:48 PM

Rachels connections didn't race in April after a huge layoff.

The whole story is that Rachel was SUPPOSED to show up, many people made reservations, the date of the race was moved...yadda yadda, but then a second stringer from Zenny's barn handed her her ass and the ducks were feeding. The match was a go until one of them failed to cut the mustard.

Just saying.

PaceAdvantage

08-10-2010, 09:48 PM

I know that Rachel defeated male 3 year olds...but there is a difference.Yup, that's all she did.

You let me know the next time (or the last time) a 3yo filly beat older male horses to win a Grade 1 race.

PaceAdvantage

08-10-2010, 09:51 PM

I've got the lifetime pps for the Clement Hirsch from DRF and would like to point out that the bolded phrase is unnecessary; except for Made For Magic's G2 none of those girls has ever won a graded race.While that is true, I find the more compelling stat to be the number you get if you add up the number of wins showing for each of the five competitors Zenyatta faced this past Saturday.

Five horses each with 10 PPs showing. Total number of wins? SIX. Average number of wins showing per horse per ten races? 1.2

Horrid.

born2ride

08-10-2010, 09:53 PM

Excerpt:

Smith angled Zenyatta 6-wide and she responded, surging to the front inside the 3/16 pole and drawing clear to win by 1 1/2 lengths over Cocoa Beach in 1:46.85. The time was just 5/100 second off the track record. It was another 1 1/2 lengths back to Music Note third.

The SA track record for 1 1/8 on dirt is 1:45 4/5. The synth track record is 1:45.64. Someone got their facts wrong in your quote. She was a full second off the dirt track record and more than a second off the synth track record.

PaceAdvantage

08-10-2010, 09:56 PM

You are joking...but just watch. It's gonna come to that...I'm sure of it.Clueless.

08-10-2010, 09:57 PM

I wonder what people would say if Zenyatta was given a Beyer of 80 for the Clement Hirsch. For those wondering why I ask, that is exactly what she would have gotten if Beyer had used the same variant he did for the other route on the card 30 minutes earlier.

Guess what else? Without the artificial adjustment he built in last year and the fake variant, the figure would have been 78. OF COURSE SHE FLEW HOME. She galloped around for 6 or 7f and did little running at all. That is fine on synthetics, but it won't cut it against real horses on dirt.

Good luck if you are betting it will. Dirt races are filled with horses running the fastest last fraction and not hitting the board.

PaceAdvantage

08-10-2010, 09:59 PM

RA can enter The Zenyatta, can she not. This insane notion that a BCC champion must travel anywhere is just that insane. She's undefeated, and the BCC champion. Let any challenger come and see what they can do. RA has raced and won on synthetics!I trump you. Rachel is the reigning HOY. As I wrote elsewhere, I know this pains you to read, but it is a fact.

The HOY doesn't have to travel anywhere. You want to beat the HOY, you travel to them. They don't come to you.

PaceAdvantage

08-10-2010, 10:00 PM

There is no Lady's Secret race in California!Another testament to how awfully run California racing is at the moment.

They should be ashamed of themselves for renaming that race.

Tom

08-10-2010, 10:01 PM

Ralphie has a few things to add to this.
You can pretend who he is talking about. :D
tmZ83q4JH6c

tzipi

08-10-2010, 10:01 PM

The whole story is that Rachel was SUPPOSED to show up, many people made reservations, the date of the race was moved...yadda yadda, but then a second stringer from Zenny's barn handed her her ass and the ducks were feeding. The match was a go until one of them failed to cut the mustard.

Just saying.

Tom was Kelso bad for losing multiple allowance races against absolute no ones off of long layoffs? It was a leg stretcher.

People bringing up a April race(early season) when no one coming off a long layoff will be in top shape? What was the shock? We know why they wanted RA then. It's August and RA connections have her in a 1 1/4 top race at the top meet in the country. Zens connections have Zen in her fourth race of the year running against horses that havn't even won a graded race except for one G2! Basic allowance horses. It's a shame its almost always like that with her. It's August and almost everyones connections are running their horses where they should be. Against top competetion.

PaceAdvantage

08-10-2010, 10:05 PM

PaceAdvantage

08-10-2010, 10:06 PM

Until she is dethroned (if ever), the best of both sexes is Rachel Alexandra.WHAT? Based on what? Surely you jest.

This thread needs to be closed. People are seriously losing it around here...

Dahoss9698

08-10-2010, 10:08 PM

Enlighten me Dahoss...

The horse is the best female horse in the country...and she is trying to accomplish something that no other mare has EVER even attempted to do...which is, win 2 BC Classics back to back, on two different surfaces.

In an answer to a prior question, Cj replied that - if Zenyatta get's soundly beaten in this year's Classic - she will go down as a great "synthetic track" horse, who was not nearly as good on the dirt.

I followed up by asking for his opinion...in case Zenyatta WON in the Classic.

What did I do wrong?

You didn't do anything wrong. Who said you did? My questions were genuine.

Tom

08-10-2010, 10:10 PM

Tom was Kelso bad for losing multiple allowance races off of long layoffs?

You're bringing up a April race(early season) when no one in layoff will be in top shape. What was the shock? It's August and RA connections have her in a 1 1/4 top race at the top meet in teh country. Zens connections had Zen in her fourth race of the year run against horses ses hadn't won a graded race except for one G2. It's August Tom not early April. Almost everyones connections are running their horses where they should be. Against top competetion.

Her connections were the ones who said she would show up. YOU brought up April and left out major facts. Just setting the record straight. Never said she was bad, in fact, I called her GREAT last year. And she was.
But I will wait foe OCTOBER, when the real champs run. Most of them. :rolleyes:

Tom

08-10-2010, 10:13 PM

Question for you Cj...

If she wins this year's BC Classic...is she the best mare you have ever seen?

Better than this one? Undefeated, too.
xjBUOKiMQNo

tzipi

08-10-2010, 10:13 PM

Her connections were the ones who said she would show up. YOU brought up April and left out major facts. Just setting the record straight. Never said she was bad, in fact, I called her GREAT last year. And she was.
But I will wait foe OCTOBER, when the real champs run. Most of them. :rolleyes:

They should've never tried to set up the race that early in the season and I agree,it was mostly bad for the fans who went there. Zens connections knew RA wouldn't be in top shape compared to Zen at that time. Was cool they went there for the fans though. Kudos to that. If they were itching like they said they were they could be in the Personal Ensign at 1 1/4(RA worst distance,right?), but they went against that basic allowance field. Shame.
But also agree,I'll wait till October to see what happens but I think Zens connections should be a bit more aggresive with her. This race will not be against mostly turf horses on a turf surface. Not that Zenny can't win thuogh. Have a good one Tom. :)

thaskalos

08-10-2010, 10:26 PM

I trump you. Rachel is the reigning HOY. As I wrote elsewhere, I know this pains you to read, but it is a fact.

The HOY doesn't have to travel anywhere. You want to beat the HOY, you travel to them. They don't come to you. Yeah...but couldn't the HOY meet Zenyatta half-way...like, at Oaklawn Park?

I know, I know...I am clueless.

PaceAdvantage

08-10-2010, 10:30 PM

I know, I know...I am clueless.You are if you think that if Zenyatta wins the BCC that we are going to be saying she sucks because of her Beyer.

If you think about it, there is no way she can get a lowly Beyer if she wins the BCC. Unless of course the field for the Clement Hirsch is all that shows up....

FenceBored

08-10-2010, 10:41 PM

While that is true, I find the more compelling stat to be the number you get if you add up the number of wins showing for each of the five competitors Zenyatta faced this past Saturday.

Five horses each with 10 PPs showing. Total number of wins? SIX. Average number of wins showing per horse per ten races? 1.2

Horrid.

Here's another "shocking Hirsch pp" fact. Dance to My Tune hasn't won a race since before Zenyatta first ran. DtMT's last win was on November 11, 2007. Zenyatta ran in her maiden race on November 22, 2007.

MNslappy

08-10-2010, 10:48 PM

I wonder what people would say if Zenyatta was given a Beyer of 80 for the Clement Hirsch. For those wondering why I ask, that is exactly what she would have gotten if Beyer had used the same variant he did for the other route on the card 30 minutes earlier.

Well I read all five pages in one helping, do I get some sort of award?

I have little or nothing to contribute, but I thought CJ's post was pretty interesting. Did Beyer give any explanation, did they really do that much work on the track between races?

PaceAdvantage

08-10-2010, 11:42 PM

I wonder what people would say if Zenyatta was given a Beyer of 80 for the Clement Hirsch. For those wondering why I ask, that is exactly what she would have gotten if Beyer had used the same variant he did for the other route on the card 30 minutes earlier.An 80 actually fits pretty well given Rinterval's Beyer history: 94,84,59,81,81,82,76,75,69,61 (most recent listed first).

thaskalos

08-10-2010, 11:49 PM

An 80 actually fits pretty well given Rinterval's Beyer history: 94,84,59,81,81,82,76,75,69,61 (most recent listed first).And you dare question the credentials of an improving animal such as this?

PaceAdvantage

08-10-2010, 11:53 PM

And you dare question the credentials of an improving animal such as this?She's 5-years-old, raced 22 times, and the only win showing among the 10 in her PPs is some 50k listed stakes at Turfway. She only won once in 2009 in seven starts as well, earning a whopping $44,000.

Yeah, I dare... :lol:

When Big Brown was winning all his races prior to the Belmont, everyone on here was saying how weak the 3yo crop was and what a chump Big Brown was...nobody went ballistic...nobody cried like a little girl...we had our debates and we moved on...

Now when someone like me dares to criticize the competition Zenyatta is beating up on, suddenly, me and guys like me are the devil.

Whatever...

thaskalos

08-10-2010, 11:55 PM

I wonder if you can tell when I'm kidding...

PaceAdvantage

08-10-2010, 11:57 PM

I wonder if you can tell when I'm kidding...I kind of figured midway into my ranting reply, but like Bluto Blutarsky, someone said "forget it, he's rolling..."

JustRalph

08-11-2010, 12:03 AM

An 80 actually fits pretty well given Rinterval's Beyer history: 94,84,59,81,81,82,76,75,69,61 (most recent listed first).

great info... between CJ's post and this ..... ....very telling

thaskalos

08-11-2010, 12:10 AM

I kind of figured midway into my ranting reply, but like Bluto Blutarsky, someone said "forget it, he's rolling..."I better start using the "joking" icons...lest I find myself in the same place as Kimsus...:)

thaskalos

08-11-2010, 12:29 AM

Second, you leave out little details that aren't really little. She won the Classic, but it was on a different surface for the first time. Females beat males on turf much more often than dirt, and I think almost anyone can agree that synthetics are much more turf like than dirt like, right? Don't you think that is part of why she won the Classic? Isn't it at least worth mentioning? I agree completely...and your point has got me thinking...

Considering that synthetic tracks are very much like turf courses...and taking into account that Zenyatta is unquestionably the best "synthetics" horse around...is it such a stretch to think, that Zenyatta might be a "standout" on the turf, as well?

And if so...wouldn't that make her best, on two of the three racing surfaces in this country?

It's possible that I might have underestimated her abilities...:)

BluegrassProf

08-11-2010, 01:23 AM

I agree completely...and your point has got me thinking...

Considering that synthetic tracks are very much like turf courses...and taking into account that Zenyatta is unquestionably the best "synthetics" horse around...is it such a stretch to think, that Zenyatta might be a "standout" on the turf, as well?

And if so...wouldn't that make her best, on two of the three racing surfaces in this country?

It's possible that I might have underestimated her abilities...:)I'm completely certain you're saying this in jest, but it's funny (and honestly, a li'l bit depressing): this absolutely sounds like something I'd read here, posted with complete seriousness and reinforced by all sorts of pseudo-evidence.

There's no end to the madness. What a sideshow this whole thing's become. :D

thaskalos

08-11-2010, 01:31 AM

I'm completely certain you're saying this in jest, but it's funny (and honestly, a li'l bit depressing): this absolutely sounds like something I'd read here, posted with complete seriousness and reinforced by all sorts of pseudo-evidence.

There's no end to the madness. What a sideshow this whole thing's become. :D Although I usually try to enlighten...I have discovered that amusement has its place too, professor.

I am sure that you agree...:)

BluegrassProf

08-11-2010, 01:34 AM

I have discovered that amusement has its place too, professor.

I am sure that you agree...:)Without a doubt. :ThmbUp:

PaceAdvantage

08-11-2010, 01:37 AM

I better start using the "joking" icons...lest I find myself in the same place as Kimsus...:)Kimsus was never joking.

thaskalos

08-11-2010, 01:41 AM

Kimsus was never joking.A horseplayer without a sense of humor - is a sad sight indeed...

gm10

08-11-2010, 04:07 AM

I'm more shocked he mentioned Gito Hernando as some horse that would have a prayer in the Classic.

It doesn't surprise me that you are shocked. It's in line with expectations even.

Who do you like in the Classic then? Jessica Is Back?

PaceAdvantage

08-11-2010, 04:17 AM

Who do you like in the Classic then? Jessica Is Back?That really upped the class level of the thread. Way to go.

gm10

08-11-2010, 04:22 AM

You really should stop lying. You get nothing but objective debate.

You get people who think synthetics are fine and dandy debating with folks who think they suck.

You get people who think Zenyatta is the best horse who ever lived debating with those who think she is an amazingly talented mare who has yet to prove she is anywhere near the best horse who ever lived.

Where exactly is there no objective debate?

Do I delete posts that support synthetics? Has carlonr ever had ANY of his posts or threads deleted?

Have any Zenaytta supporters ever had their threads or posts altered or deleted?

Please stop the bullshit and go back to selling your figures.

For a while, I thought that you meant well were just struggling with recent advances in handicapping, but now I know you don't even deserve that much credit. Deepsix got it spot on. You need controversy here to keep the board going and to make money. The last thing you want is for the fans to educate themselves. You are protecting your commercial interests. And that's fine, just don't be a hypocrite about it.

gm10

08-11-2010, 04:24 AM

That really upped the class level of the thread. Way to go.

I post a horse that I like, the board admin ridicules it (without giving reasons - of course). I think your criticism could have better been aimed at him. But then again, he makes you money doesn't he.

PaceAdvantage

08-11-2010, 04:33 AM

For a while, I thought that you meant well were just struggling with recent advances in handicapping, but now I know you don't even deserve that much credit. Deepsix got it spot on. You need controversy here to keep the board going and to make money. The last thing you want is for the fans to educate themselves. You are protecting your commercial interests. And that's fine, just don't be a hypocrite about it.I have no commercial interests. Unlike yourself.

The advertising on this board could disappear tomorrow and it wouldn't affect me one bit.

PaceAdvantage

08-11-2010, 04:35 AM

I post a horse that I like, the board admin ridicules it (without giving reasons - of course). I think your criticism could have better been aimed at him. But then again, he makes you money doesn't he.Not that it's any of your business, but cj doesn't make me any money whatsoever. I haven't gotten nor have I asked for one dime.

He did offer to send me a percentage of a recent offer he put out there for Saratoga, but I privately wrote him that I owe him a lot more for all the free moderating he does around here than he ever owes me...I told him to keep his money...

So like I said, go back to doing what you do best, which is hawking your figures. Throwing around baseless allegations doesn't really seem to be your thing, as you're not very good at it...

PaceAdvantage

08-11-2010, 04:41 AM

For a while, I thought that you meant well were just struggling with recent advances in handicapping, but now I know you don't even deserve that much credit.Careful...you might end up like only11...he thought Dahoss sucked as a handicapper too....Deepsix got it spot on. You need controversy here to keep the board going and to make money.Like I already said, the advertisements could disappear tomorrow and it wouldn't change my life in any material way. And this board has been going just fine for 11 years now. Not all the time is there controversy. It chugs along quite nicely on all manner of discussion.The last thing you want is for the fans to educate themselves. You are protecting your commercial interests. And that's fine, just don't be a hypocrite about it.You're utterly clueless. It's like talking to a brick wall. I can't help that you purchased a load of bullshit a while back and have been taken hook, line and sinker.

That's your cross to bear.

gm10

08-11-2010, 08:02 AM

Not that it's any of your business, but cj doesn't make me any money whatsoever. I haven't gotten nor have I asked for one dime.

He did offer to send me a percentage of a recent offer he put out there for Saratoga, but I privately wrote him that I owe him a lot more for all the free moderating he does around here than he ever owes me...I told him to keep his money...

So like I said, go back to doing what you do best, which is hawking your figures. Throwing around baseless allegations doesn't really seem to be your thing, as you're not very good at it...

Hmmm, I seem to remember that his offer said that Paceadvantage.com was getting 25% of the income it would generate. How noble of you to refuse even after it's been made official.

Ah what the hell. It's very simple: I don't trust you one inch and I encourage others to be skeptical of your intentions as well. Bye.

FenceBored

08-11-2010, 09:11 AM

Ah what the hell. It's very simple: I don't trust you one inch and I encourage others to be skeptical of your intentions as well. Bye.

Oh, that's rich, coming from someone who excludes data from analysis to make the studied sample agree with his conclusions better. :rolleyes:

Fager Fan

08-11-2010, 09:25 AM

Lookin at Lucky. Legged up on California synthetics. An absolute monster on dirt.

Or more likely, he improved once he got on the surface he was bred for.

Investorater

08-11-2010, 09:27 AM

First of all, I must say that I am both a Rachel Alexandra and Zenyatta fan.

And it would seem to me that some RA fans are wanting this match-up to happen before the BCC, in order for her to avenge her first two losses of this year. (Let's not forget what she accomplished at the age of three.) Come November, Rachel Alexandra, has the opportunity to establish herself as one of the all - time - female - greats.

(Though I think she's pretty great right now, and I feel the same about Z.) It can only be hoped that both the filly and mare enter the BCC, if only to see which horse would have the better placing. What an exciting race it could be...\o/...(After all, I'm also a fan of Quality Road and Lookin At Lucky).

Fager Fan

08-11-2010, 09:27 AM

Once again, I am not pro-synthetic. For me the jury is still out. I am not interested in the claims. The manufacturer of a car can "claim" it is the best ride ever. It probably isn't, but that does not mean it is not a great car. Marketing is marketing. I can think of very few products that are everything their marketing said they would be. I am only interested in one thing. Is it better for the horses or not. At this point, for me, I'm still want to see more data. If others have already made up their mind, that's ok for them. I'll await the data.

You realize the data is already in, and it said that there was no substantial difference in the fatality rates on synths and dirt?

FenceBored

08-11-2010, 09:32 AM

You realize the data is already in, and it said that there was no substantial difference in the fatality rates on synths and dirt?

Not to defend synthetics, but that report was just a first pass at the early data, and the researchers were very clear that more data (i.e. more years worth of data) will probably clarify the situation.

Robert Goren

08-11-2010, 09:42 AM

It may or not be safer, but it is pretty clear that is not a lot safer.

carlonr

08-11-2010, 09:44 AM

Poll update "Looks like Zenyatta is accelerating, coming down the stretch!

e Daily Paulick Poll
Which of the following do you think will win the 1 1/4-mile Breeders' Cup Classic?
Blame (16%)
Lookin At Lucky (11%)
Quality Road (9%)
Rachel Alexandra (5%)
Rail Trip (2%)
Zenyatta (57%)

andymays

08-11-2010, 09:46 AM

It may or not be safer, but it is pretty clear that is not a lot safer.

Synthetic surfaces are an Abomination! ;)

abomination [əˌbɒmɪˈneɪʃən]
n
1. a person or thing that is disgusting
2. an action that is vicious, vile, etc.
3. intense loathing

andymays

08-11-2010, 09:47 AM

carlonr

08-11-2010, 11:37 AM

Is't that the NON pace advantage poll?

Of course... The PaceAdvantage poll would have her exhausted at the 1/8 pole, barely finishing the race!

carlonr

08-11-2010, 11:43 AM

Or more likely, he improved once he got on the surface he was bred for.

Then why is it such a stretch for Zenyatta to improve once she "races on the surface she was bred for.".

(BTW I thought all horses were bred to run on grass. Their natural surface)

08-11-2010, 12:02 PM

It doesn't surprise me that you are shocked. It's in line with expectations even.

Who do you like in the Classic then? Jessica Is Back?

This is what you get because I think Gito Hernando has no shot in the Classic? Welcome back, how long until the profanity laced tirades via PM?

08-11-2010, 12:07 PM

Then why is it such a stretch for Zenyatta to improve once she "races on the surface she was bred for.".

(BTW I thought all horses were bred to run on grass. Their natural surface)

I'm still waiting to hear of the other synthetic deep closers that run better on dirt...or even one.

gm10

08-11-2010, 12:22 PM

This is what you get because I think Gito Hernando has no shot in the Classic? Welcome back, how long until the profanity laced tirades via PM?

What profanities? I gave you my opinion, as far as I remember there were no profanities.
Gitano has a chance. I tipped him here when he was 20/1 for the Goodwood and if he gets fit for the Classic I'll tip him again. I am aware of your struggle with understanding synthetic surfaces, but he is actually a very good horse. Don't let the falsely run DWC fool you.

08-11-2010, 12:31 PM

What profanities? I gave you my opinion, as far as I remember there were no profanities.
Gitano has a chance. I tipped him here when he was 20/1 for the Goodwood and if he gets fit for the Classic I'll tip him again. I am aware of your struggle with understanding synthetic surfaces, but he is actually a very good horse. Don't let the falsely run DWC fool you.

OK, maybe I should have said insult laced, sorry.

I have no struggles with synthetics regardless of what you seem to believe. I have a better ROI on them than dirt, just not nearly as many opportunities. Feel free to keep making things up though, I love it.

gm10

08-11-2010, 12:52 PM

OK, maybe I should have said insult laced, sorry.

I have no struggles with synthetics regardless of what you seem to believe. I have a better ROI on them than dirt, just not nearly as many opportunities. Feel free to keep making things up though, I love it.

OK tell me why you think that Gitano has no chance then.

Headbanger

08-11-2010, 01:30 PM

OK tell me why you think that Gitano has no chance then.

Ok, because the horse freaking stinks, is slow, and can't outfinish real horses on a true dirt surface. How the hell is Gitano Hernando going to outfinish a horse like Blame, or even Musket Man when Musket Man gets a setup. Hell, Mine That Bird is Even Money to finish ahead of Gitano Hernando. I hope your overall handicapping is better than your opinion of Gitano Hernando, because I might even put Only11 over you on the ML in a handicapping contest.

08-11-2010, 02:03 PM

OK tell me why you think that Gitano has no chance then.

I have no reason to believe he will be any good on real dirt. Now, tell me why he does.

Fager Fan

08-11-2010, 02:22 PM

OK tell me why you think that Gitano has no chance then.

You're seriously touting that third-stringer to win the BC Classic? Over this [top] expected field? On dirt?

PaceAdvantage

08-11-2010, 02:23 PM

I don't trust you one inch and I encourage others to be skeptical of your intentions as well. Bye.What are you talking about? Seriously, you sound deranged. Trust about what? Do I sell any products or services on this website? No.

Do I express every single opinion I have publicly, whether it agrees with the masses or not? Yes.

Do I censor opposing opinions like yours and carl and anyone else who merely disagrees with me? Certainly not. People keep writing about how I am a biased moderator, but none of them can point to their posts being edited or deleted simply because I disagree with their opinion.

What exactly is there to mistrust about me? What are these intentions you write about? I run a message board and I like to express my opinion along with everyone else. That's about it. Nothing more, nothing less.

As opposed to yourself, I'm not selling a handicapping product or service to the public. In fact, I'm not selling anything to anyone. All can come here and participate absolutely 100% free of charge. They can play in the real money contests we hold 100% free of charge.

You, on the other hand, with your continual and shameless put downs of cj, who is an obvious (and superior) competitor of yours...that certainly smacks of bad intentions, don't you think? But you won't want to get into all that on here now will you? Might be bad for business.

Talk about questionable intentions....

Fager Fan

08-11-2010, 02:25 PM

What are you talking about? Seriously, you sound deranged. Trust about what? Do I sell any products or services on this website? No.

Do I express every single opinion I have publicly, whether it agrees with the masses or not? Yes.

Do I censor opposing opinions like yours and carl and anyone else who merely disagrees with me? Certainly not. People keep writing about how I am a biased moderator, but none of them can point to their posts being edited or deleted simply because I disagree with their opinion.

What exactly is there to mistrust about me? What are these intentions you write about? I run a message board and I like to express my opinion along with everyone else. That's about it. Nothing more, nothing less.

As opposed to yourself, I'm not selling a handicapping product or service to the public. In fact, I'm not selling anything to anyone. All can come here and participate absolutely 100% free of charge. They can play in the real money contests we hold 100% free of charge.

You, on the other hand, with your continual and shameless put downs of cj, who is an obvious (and superior) competitor of yours...that certainly smacks of bad intentions, don't you think? But you won't want to get into all that on here now will you? Might be bad for business.

Talk about questionable intentions....

From what I've read, why don't you ban this person? I see no benefit that this person brings to the forum, and instead only brings a personal war they have with you.

PaceAdvantage

08-11-2010, 02:29 PM

From what I've read, why don't you ban this person? I see no benefit that this person brings to the forum, and instead only brings a personal war they have with you.I'm sure that's coming eventually. It's what he wants actually...he's asked for it on many occasions. I can't let him get away with some of the things he posts though without offering up some corrective facts.

andymays

08-11-2010, 02:30 PM

From what I've read, why don't you ban this person? I see no benefit that this person brings to the forum, and instead only brings a personal war they have with you.

He banned himself a while ago but that didn't work. :eek:

thaskalos

08-11-2010, 02:30 PM

From what I've read, why don't you ban this person? I see no benefit that this person brings to the forum, and instead only brings a personal war they have with you.He is not allowed...

There is a handicapping contest pending...and GM10 is my partner in it.

gm10

08-11-2010, 02:35 PM

I have no reason to believe he will be any good on real dirt. Now, tell me why he does.

Yes but that is not really answering the question. I want to know why you think that he won't be good on dirt. You say he doesn't even have a prayer. That is a strong statement.

gm10

08-11-2010, 02:40 PM

He is not allowed...

There is a handicapping contest pending...and GM10 is my partner in it.

:D

Ah yes I wonder when PaceAdvantage will convince CJ to take part in that.
PA even accused me of leaving just as the contest was beginning to take shape, so I said that I would stick around for it.
I tell you, it's going to be the mother of all handicapping contests, it's been taking shape for months now.

gm10

08-11-2010, 02:46 PM

What are you talking about? Seriously, you sound deranged. Trust about what? Do I sell any products or services on this website? No.

Do I express every single opinion I have publicly, whether it agrees with the masses or not? Yes.

Do I censor opposing opinions like yours and carl and anyone else who merely disagrees with me? Certainly not. People keep writing about how I am a biased moderator, but none of them can point to their posts being edited or deleted simply because I disagree with their opinion.

What exactly is there to mistrust about me? What are these intentions you write about? I run a message board and I like to express my opinion along with everyone else. That's about it. Nothing more, nothing less.

As opposed to yourself, I'm not selling a handicapping product or service to the public. In fact, I'm not selling anything to anyone. All can come here and participate absolutely 100% free of charge. They can play in the real money contests we hold 100% free of charge.

You, on the other hand, with your continual and shameless put downs of cj, who is an obvious (and superior) competitor of yours...that certainly smacks of bad intentions, don't you think? But you won't want to get into all that on here now will you? Might be bad for business.

Talk about questionable intentions....

I'm going to skip over your usual blahblah (but glad to know I'm not the only one!).

Reading that CJ was a 'superior competitor' did tickle my interest, though. Please know that I am offering you the chance to have this proven once for all. Let me know when this contest actually starts.