The Toughest Schedule Ever! Zenyatta's next stop could be the Zenyatta Stakes.

[andymays]

http://www.drf.com/news/zenyattas-next-stop-could-be-zenyatta-stakes

Excerpt:

The most likely spot is the $250,000 Zenyatta Breeders’ Cup Stakes at the Oak Tree at Santa Anita meeting Oct. 2 . The Zenyatta Stakes was previously known as the Lady’s Secret Stakes when Zenyatta won the race in 2008 and 2009. The race was renamed in Zenyatta’s honor by Oak Tree officials last fall after owners Jerry and Ann Moss announced Zenyatta was retired following her historic win in the Breeders’ Cup Classic, the first time a female had won that race.

Oak Tree officials stuck with the plan to call the race the Zenyatta Stakes even after the Mosses reversed their decision in January and said Zenyatta would race this year.

Sunday, Shirreffs said Zenyatta will remain in the female division for her next start.

"We'll follow the script as much as possible as we did last year," he said.

In 2009, Zenyatta won the Hirsch Stakes and the Lady's Secret Stakes as preps for the Breeders' Cup Classic. This year's BC Classic at Churchill Downs on Nov. 6 will be Zenyatta's final career start.

Shirreffs seemed cool to the idea of sending Zenyatta to Belmont Park for the $350,000 Beldame Stakes on Oct. 2, saying he did not want to be away from his horses for too long.

"The only thing that concerns me is if I go to New York, do I go directly to Kentucky?" he said. "And how long do I stay away from the [California] stable? I'm not a good telephone trainer. We have to decide the best decision."

[horses4courses]

Quit acting like it's a surprise.......

[andymays]

Quit acting like it's a surprise.......


It's not a surprise although the connections could be sued for breaking their contract with the Horse Racing Fans of America. ;)

This has to be the most dissapointing schedule of all time give the fact that they said they brought her back to take on the best and show her to the nation.

Did they say that or not? :confused:

The keep going for runner up HOY and then their surprised when they win second place. :eek:

[letswastemoney]

I just wish he never mentioned the Beldame was possible if that's not their intention.

It just brings people's hopes up that he will go to NY, and when he backs off the idea it disappoints people.

[andymays]

I just wish he never mentioned the Beldame was possible if that's not their intention.

It just brings people's hopes up that he will go to NY, and when he backs off the idea it disappoints people.

They seem to do this all the time. It's really very strange.

[MickJ26]

Then they'll all sit there at the Eclipse Awards with shocked looks on their faces again when Zenyatta loses HOY.

[andymays]

Then they'll all sit there at the Eclipse Awards with shocked looks on their faces again when Zenyatta loses HOY.

I think it's one of those things where everyone in their inner circle agrees with whatever they say and do and reinforce decisions like this. Then they tell them they got robbed when they lose HOY.

[cj]

She was always going to the race named for her next. It would be a thread to start if she wasn't. With every new race on the schedule her chances of winning the Classic become less.

[bane]

:bang:

[andymays]

She was always going to the race named for her next. It would be a thread to start if she wasn't. With every new race on the schedule her chances of winning the Classic become less.
I find it absolutely incredible that they think being undefeated running against mediocre company is more important than taking on the best in her last two races and losing. I would have much more respect if she tries and loses against better competition. It will really be something if they duck the Classic just to have a better shot at being undefeated.

[cj]

To play devil's advocate, I'm not sure I'd be looking to take on bigger and better after her last few efforts.

[andymays]

To play devil's advocate, I'm not sure I'd be looking to take on bigger and better after her last few efforts.
They were quoted a few times yesterday saying she's the best in country like you have to be nuts to disagree with them. :rolleyes:

Ellis just said they're basking in the After Glow from yesterday. People see what they want to see. This is a great example.

[gemcity39]

Not only do they run against junk, TVG shills peeing thier pants exclaiming how great she is, DelMar track supt. redid the track after Shirrefs complained in the AM the day of the race to make sure it would benefit closers..she is a very good horse and model of consistently, but what a poor run of junk horses on synthetic she beats.:sleeping:

[MickJ26]

She still may win HOY by default. Nobody else has really done anything earth shattering. The irony is it would be the year in which she's least deserving.

[bane]

:bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang:

[andymays]

She still may win HOY by default. Nobody else has really done anything earth shattering. The irony is it would be the year in which she's least deserving.

The people who vote will be offended by her schedule once again.

[Zenyatta To Crush]

The people who vote will be offended by her schedule once again.
All this negativity on the board sucks.

[HuggingTheRail]

Darn, I thought she would go to Emerald for the Belle Roberts, up here to Hastings for the Ballerina, then on to the Breeder's Cup. :lol:

[Relwob Owner]

All this negativity on the board sucks.


All the negativity is justified in my opinion.....what sucks is the owners and trainers protetcing the horse and keeping us racing fans from seeing how she should do against real competition more than once a year.....

On another note-Andy-in your opening post on this thread, did I see Sheriff saying that he isnt a "telephone trainer" and thats why he doesnt want to take her to New York? If it is, what a new and interesting excuse for her pathetic schedule.

[andymays]

All this negativity on the board sucks.

It's not the only board on the planet. The are a few that I know of the have daily worship services.

This B.S. that you can't criticize her schedule is nothing more than some weird type of Horse Racings version of Political correctness.

I like Zenyatta but her schedule has been a disgrace. Thats a fact.

[andymays]

All the negativity is justified in my opinion.....what sucks is the owners and trainers protetcing the horse and keeping us racing fans from seeing how she should do against real competition more than once a year.....

On another note-Andy-in your opening post on this thread, did I see Sheriff saying that he isnt a "telephone trainer" and thats why he doesnt want to take her to New York? If it is, what a new and interesting excuse for her pathetic schedule.

The connections are among the most outspoken critics of sythetic surfaces yet they seem to be lending them the most credibilty. Another weird chapter of this story.

[MNslappy]

The professor said something in another thread that should be repeated over and over:

it's really always been about expecting something more from a mare that we all CLEARLY consider a truly exceptional athlete.

It's not hating; it's disappointment.

That sums it up nice and succinctly for me.

[andymays]

The professor said something in another thread that should be repeated over and over:



That sums it up nice and succinctly for me.

Totally agree! :ThmbUp:

Has there ever been such a dissapointing schedule for one of the sports superstars?

[tucker6]

She was always going to the race named for her next. It would be a thread to start if she wasn't. With every new race on the schedule her chances of winning the Classic become less.
CJ,

I said this a couple weeks ago. The goals are;

1. retire undefeated
2. retire undefeated
3. retire undefeated

She will retire 19-0. Not 19-1. Not 20-0. The Zenyatta Stakes will be her last start.

The odds of this happening grow every day. To me, this has already happened, and I'm just trying to figure out the means to that end.

Tom

[DeanT]

Totally agree! :ThmbUp:

Has there ever been such a dissapointing schedule for one of the sports superstars?

Eskendreya and the dozens of super fast horses who did not race for three straight seasons?

[ArlJim78]

I think the folks thinking that Zenyatta won't run in the classic are mistaken. She'll run and do well.

[sandpit]

It's not the only board on the planet. The are a few that I know of the have daily worship services.

This B.S. that you can't criticize her schedule is nothing more than some weird type of Horse Racings version of Political correctness.

I like Zenyatta but her schedule has been a disgrace. Thats a fact.

Time to play devil's advocate with the "facts". Let me say before everybody starts knocking me for this, I didn't write it and don't have any opinion on it. It comes from a comment on a story I read this morning.

"Zenyatta has defeated two Breeders Cup’ Distaff Champions, Ginger Punch and Life is Sweet. She beat Ginger Punch twice, including once on dirt; she beat Life is Sweet three times.
Zenyatta beat Music Note, a five-time Grade 1 winner. She beaten seven other Grade 1 winners: Hystericalady, Santa Teresita, Tough Tizs Sis, Cocoa Beach, Romance is DIane, Carriage Trail, and Sealey Hill. (After Zenyatta defeated her in the 2008 Vanity, Baffert took Tough Tizs Sis to Belmont for the Ruffian Handicap (G1), where she won by 12 and 1/4 lengths in record time.)

So among fillies and mares, Zenyatta has defeated ten Grade 1 winners, including two Breeders’ Cup Distaff Champions. She also defeated St Trinians, a Grade 2 winner. She also defeated Zardana, who earlier in the year defeated Rachel.

Among the males: in the BC Classic, Zenyatta defeated the 2009 American male older horse champion (Gio Ponti), the 2009 American male 3 year old champion (Summer Bird), the top European horse then in training (Rip Van Winkle), the 2009 Kentucky Derby winner (Mine that Bird), not to mention a 5-time Grade 1 winner (Einstein), and other Grade 1 winners Twice Over, Colonel John, Richard’s Kid, and Awesome Gem."

[letswastemoney]

Time to play devil's advocate with the "facts". Let me say before everybody starts knocking me for this, I didn't write it and don't have any opinion on it. It comes from a comment on a story I read this morning.

"Zenyatta has defeated two Breeders Cup’ Distaff Champions, Ginger Punch and Life is Sweet. She beat Ginger Punch twice, including once on dirt; she beat Life is Sweet three times.
Zenyatta beat Music Note, a five-time Grade 1 winner. She beaten seven other Grade 1 winners: Hystericalady, Santa Teresita, Tough Tizs Sis, Cocoa Beach, Romance is DIane, Carriage Trail, and Sealey Hill. (After Zenyatta defeated her in the 2008 Vanity, Baffert took Tough Tizs Sis to Belmont for the Ruffian Handicap (G1), where she won by 12 and 1/4 lengths in record time.)

So among fillies and mares, Zenyatta has defeated ten Grade 1 winners, including two Breeders’ Cup Distaff Champions. She also defeated St Trinians, a Grade 2 winner. She also defeated Zardana, who earlier in the year defeated Rachel.

Among the males: in the BC Classic, Zenyatta defeated the 2009 American male older horse champion (Gio Ponti), the 2009 American male 3 year old champion (Summer Bird), the top European horse then in training (Rip Van Winkle), the 2009 Kentucky Derby winner (Mine that Bird), not to mention a 5-time Grade 1 winner (Einstein), and other Grade 1 winners Twice Over, Colonel John, Richard’s Kid, and Awesome Gem."No one disputes her synthetic powers.

Do you believe she's the best dirt horse in training?

[andymays]

The Mosses own Z and they are going to do what they want to do. I guess it's Ok for them to change their minds if they want to. This schedule is not the reason they gave for bringing her back.

I guess this drama or non drama is going to play out the rest of the year. They can keep picking the soft spots and those of us who don't like it can say so. And the beat goes on. ;)

[horses4courses]

I agree, somewhat, that Z is capable of better than she has shown this year.
The bar could have been set higher but, after the anti-climatical Apple Blossom, a holding pattern is probably in the mare's best interest.

I didn't like the look of her preparation for last year's BC.
She didn't appear to me to have had an active enough campaign to leave her in peak condition to beat the boys.

What that winning race proved to me was that nobody knows this mare better than John Shirreffs. He does what he believes is best for her, and he has been right 18 times in a row. The connections owe nothing to race fans who are hungry for battle, like some video game that increases in difficulty with each level.

It's all about Churchill Downs in November.

Should Z wind up tasting defeat (and that's possible), predictable events will unfold on sites like this one.

The haters, and there are some, will jump for joy, and yell "I told ya so".
Those who have been disappointed with the connections will shrug their shoulders and sigh. "If only they had........"
Then there's the figure gurus.
They will be smug, and ever-confident in their belief that numbers are all-powerful. "Zenyatta was simply too slow to beat G1 colts on dirt"

Ah, yes.... that's how that scene would play out.

Should Zenyatta, arriving to Churchill a fresh horse and ready to conquer, defeat all comers in the BC Classic (as I believe she will). What will we hear then?
The over-zealous supporters will be whooping and hollering. That's for sure.
Getting past that, how will the haters and figure gurus react?
Hopefully, with some humility and grace. I wouldn't bet on it, though.
Will those disappointed in Zenyatta's campaign this year bow to John Shirreff's
judgement?

The answer to those questions are far less easy to predict......

[sandpit]

No one disputes her synthetic powers.

Do you believe she's the best dirt horse in training?

I honestly have no idea. Judging her off two dirt starts on the same track is way too small a sample. Interestingly, her two biggest margins of victory came at Oaklawn. Granted, one of those races was against an awful field.

I personally thought Quality Road was at the top, but after yesterday that's pretty tough to defend too.

I think the BCC will decide it for all of us. Let's hope we get a lineup that, no matter who wins, nobody can take anything away from the winner.

[keithw84]

She still may win HOY by default. Nobody else has really done anything earth shattering. The irony is it would be the year in which she's least deserving.

If Blame, Quality Road, Lookin at Lucky, or Zenyatta wins the BCC, then they will win HOTY. If we see an Arcangues-like upset, maybe Zenyatta wins because of the lifetime acheivement factor... but we still have 3 mos. before the Breeders Cup to see if someone will distinguish themselves a little more.

[bks]

I hate that Shirreffs won't be more aggressive with her, but if he thinks this gives her the best chance at winning the BCC, he has to do it.

They shouldn't have mentioned the Beldame, though, I completely agree.

[carlonr]

I find it absolutely incredible that they think being undefeated running against mediocre company is more important than taking on the best in her last two races and losing. I would have much more respect if she tries and loses against better competition. It will really be something if they duck the Classic just to have a better shot at being undefeated.

The owners have said for at least 3 years that they are Breeders's Cup people first and foremost. Whatever campaign they choose is always one that points to the Breeder's Cup. I don't think they will waiver from that. I'm not saying I agree or disagree, but they have been very consistent about being very supportive of the Breeder's Cup.

[PaceAdvantage]

All this negativity on the board sucks.Threads have titles for a reason.

[PaceAdvantage]

What will we hear then?
The over-zealous supporters will be whooping and hollering. That's for sure.
Getting past that, how will the haters and figure gurus react?
Hopefully, with some humility and grace. I wouldn't bet on it, though.
Will those disappointed in Zenyatta's campaign this year bow to John Shirreff's
judgement?These types of discussions I find the most useless and really are only designed to further the combativeness inherent in the subject matter.

And what is this lumping of "haters and figure gurus?" What exactly is a "hater?" I don't hate Zenyatta, and I'm inclined to wager that 100% of those you think are "haters" don't actually hate any horse. It's a rather ridiculous term and one I despise with a passion.

[PaceAdvantage]

"The only thing that concerns me is if I go to New York, do I go directly to Kentucky?" he said. "And how long do I stay away from the [California] stable? I'm not a good telephone trainer. We have to decide the best decision."This kind of baffles me. It's not like John Shirreffs is running a huge operation. Far, far from it in fact.

Do you know how many starts Shirreffs' horses have made in 2010?

FIFTY NINE.

You mean to tell me he can't afford to travel a little bit with Zenyatta? He has only averaged about 8 starts a MONTH thus far in 2010 with his entire stable of horses!

[cj]

This kind of baffles me. It's not like John Shirreffs is running a huge operation. Far, far from it in fact.

Do you know how many starts Shirreffs' horses have made in 2010?

FIFTY NINE.

You mean to tell me he can't afford to travel a little bit with Zenyatta? He has only averaged about 8 starts a MONTH thus far in 2010 with his entire stable of horses!

The Z-turds hate it when you bring facts into the discussion.

[thaskalos]

The Z-turds hate it when you bring facts into the discussion.That's because we are not used to it. :)

[Seabiscuit@AR]

Zenyatta's 2010 campaign so far has been disappointing. She should have been in the Hollywood Gold Cup and Pacific Classic

But if they run her in the BC Classic it will make for some great suspense in the lead up to the race. If she went to Saratoga now and raced Quality Road or Rachel then the BC Classic would be just another race. While horses in America should run more often I don't mind the idea of keeping the best horses apart for the one big showdown race

I thought Zenyatta looked OK in her race yesterday. I don't think she has lost as much as her detractors hope

[andymays]

http://www.nctimes.com/sports/equestrian/racing/article_f2e39e83-fdf5-546c-a3a1-57ce8cef75aa.html

Excerpt:

--- Zenyatta was resting comfortably in her stall after Saturday's 18th straight victory. Trainer John Shirreffs said she will be shipped to Hollywood Park on Tuesday. Shirreffs said she will next race either in the Beldame at Belmont Park or the Zenyatta (formerly the Lady's Secret) at Oak Tree's meet. Shirreffs previously said Saturday's race would likely be her last in California, but he is backing off of that statement now.

[andymays]

The article isn't just about Zenyatta.
-------------------------------------------------------

http://www.horseraceinsider.com/Zasts-TrackWords/comments/2010-08-08stars-of-the-moment/#comments

Excerpt:

For the most part, Zenyatta’s been winning on kitty litter.

Excerpt:

The Clement L. Hirsch, a 1-1/16 mile Grade 1 Stakes on Polytrack, posed the second closest challenge to Zenyatta’s flawless record. Yet, her narrow escape doesn’t seem to pose challenge to her owners’ quest of winning the Classic a second time. She won by a neck, having to fend off a filly named Rinterval, with whom she ran the last furlong on near even terms. Nevertheless, the rabid fans of the 6-year-old mare said the outcome was certain all along. Blind love makes having bona fide stars for the sport seem imperative.

In barely winning the Hirsch, Zenyatta drove people to wondering what’s next in store for her. When sport was the first thing to come into mind, a race like the Prix de l’Arc de Triomphe at Longchamp might have entered the discussion. In today’s age of challenge avoidance, the newly-coined Zenyatta Stakes is expected to round out her pre-Breeders’ Cup preparation.

[Dahoss9698]

This kind of baffles me. It's not like John Shirreffs is running a huge operation. Far, far from it in fact.

Do you know how many starts Shirreffs' horses have made in 2010?

FIFTY NINE.

You mean to tell me he can't afford to travel a little bit with Zenyatta? He has only averaged about 8 starts a MONTH thus far in 2010 with his entire stable of horses!

It really is amazing. The connections act like everyone is stupid and no one has ever shipped a horse before. And for some reason people just eat it up.

[tubesockshakur]

dont think they care.

[carlonr]

It really is amazing. The connections act like everyone is stupid and no one has ever shipped a horse before. And for some reason people just eat it up.

So far the plan has worked for them (the connections). Thy have won two Breeders'Cup races. They have been very consistent with saying that they are first and foremost Breeder's Cup people. They seem to be following the "if it aint broke don't fix it" philosophy. Not saying I agree, but if they reach 20 (20-0-0) and win three Breeder's Cup championships with their strategy, It's hard to knock until somebody else uses a different strategy and is just as successful.

[carlonr]

It really is amazing. The connections act like everyone is stupid and no one has ever shipped a horse before. And for some reason people just eat it up.


Has anyone shipped a horse that is 18-0 before?

[ArlJim78]

There are zero examples I can think of where people have made repetitive cross country trips with the same horse, bypassing races in their own backyard.

There are so many reason why not to do that, you'd have to be insane to do it. Of all the knocks on Zenyatta, that one is the dumbest.

[andymays]

Has anyone shipped a horse that is 18-0 before?

It appears that the Zenyatta "Moonies" want her to be undefeated above all else so let me ask this question.

Should Zenyatta duck the Breeders' Cup Classic to run against softer in The Breeders Cup Filly and Mare race?

[BluegrassProf]

Has anyone shipped a horse that is 18-0 before?Man, after reading some of this stuff, no disrespect in the least, but for the record: it absolutely STUNS me that - particularly after last year, with its respective disappointments and the very clear promise of something even slightly more ambitious - some folks would be so darned quick to argue a case for this year's head-hanging campaign. BC or bust. Year be damned. Gimme the big show. L'il ol' jaunts and one big BOOM! for Horse of a Lifetime.

Honest to goodness stunning.

But seriously, good on you...at least someone's rallying and feeling pretty good about it. Always like to see a satisfied public, I say! ;):ThmbUp:

[andymays]

http://www.horseraceinsider.com/lines-in-the-sand/

Excerpt:

When Zenyatta wins, no matter what the weights, no matter how cheesy the opposition, no matter how scant the margin, hyperbole flies , so why should her win by a neck at Del Mar be an exception? When she crossed the finish line for her 18th win without a loss, the estimable Trevor Denman, who has been on the horns for many of of those wins, said: "She doesn't win by far, but it's the way she wins! She gives you goosebumps!"

Mike Smith, who rides Zenyatta, was smitten long ago, and this time he said: "If she can pull two more (wins), to me she might go down as the greatest horse of all-time."

Well, they all have to say something, don't they? A win over chopped liver at Del Mar will not get Zenyatta past Man o' War and Secretariat, but a second win against males in the Breeders' Cup Classic in November will at least rocket her into their league.

[carlonr]

Not only do they run against junk, TVG shills peeing thier pants exclaiming how great she is, DelMar track supt. redid the track after Shirrefs complained in the AM the day of the race to make sure it would benefit closers..she is a very good horse and model of consistently, but what a poor run of junk horses on synthetic she beats.:sleeping:

The track was not redone to benefit closers. There was a few spots where the poly had separations and they added water which actually favors speed horses!

[chickenhead]

last year I thought the criticism of her schedule was overdone, but that was understandable in itself.

This year, being that she won the BC Classic, I think her schedule to this point should have included at least one Classic open race, either in SoCal or somewhere else. I would have liked her to ship more, mainly so others could see her, but if they had a valid reason for not doing so the Hollywood Gold Cup or the Big Cap, at least one and probably both, should have been no-brainers.

[Stevie Belmont]

I was hoping she would run in The Beldame. This is a bummer.

[Dahoss9698]

So far the plan has worked for them (the connections). Thy have won two Breeders'Cup races. They have been very consistent with saying that they are first and foremost Breeder's Cup people. They seem to be following the "if it aint broke don't fix it" philosophy. Not saying I agree, but if they reach 20 (20-0-0) and win three Breeder's Cup championships with their strategy, It's hard to knock until somebody else uses a different strategy and is just as successful.

This is my favorite new excuse used by the people hypnotized by Zenyatta's connections. The duck and cover approach is okay as long as you win the Breeders Cup. Forget the other 11 months of the year.

[carlonr]

This is my favorite new excuse used by the people hypnotized by Zenyatta's connections. The duck and cover approach is okay as long as you win the Breeders Cup. Forget the other 11 months of the year.

All I am saying is that their reasoning is not "new" They have been emphatic about being "Breeder's Cup people" for 3 years.

[horses4courses]

These types of discussions I find the most useless and really are only designed to further the combativeness inherent in the subject matter.

And what is this lumping of "haters and figure gurus?" What exactly is a "hater?" I don't hate Zenyatta, and I'm inclined to wager that 100% of those you think are "haters" don't actually hate any horse. It's a rather ridiculous term and one I despise with a passion.

I see.
So, posts like mine fuel the fire for animosity, yet your sidekick cj can refer to those who speak up in favor of the mare as "Z-turds"?

That really does wonders to bring a little objectivity into the debate.

[carlonr]

I see.
So, posts like mine fuel the fire for animosity, yet your sidekick cj can refer to those who speak up in favor of the mare as "Z-turds"?

That really does wonders to bring a little objectivity into the debate.

If you are looking for unbiased moderators on this board, you will be greatly disappointed. Especially in regard to anything having to do with synthetics and the horses that run on them, including Zenyatta.

[OntheRail]

The track was not redone to benefit closers. There was a few spots where the poly had separations and they added water which actually favors speed horses!

I did not watch the whole card but did you happen to see the 8th race... or were you eyes to welled up with anticipation. The 11 horse was dead last but hit the wire first. I said right there the juiced the track for closers. And in the 9th same thing happened. Coincident you say... :faint: .

[andymays]

Maybe calling die hard Z fans somthing like the "moonies" (refering to members of Sun Myung Moon's controversial Unification Movement) would be appropriate.

How about "Zoonies"?

I think when the die hard Z fans bring in "hate" it takes the debate to another level and that level aint good.

Nobody hates Z but they may dislike her campaign. 17 or 18 races were restricted. This year all were restricted. After winning the Classic last year and bringing her back for specific reasons that are now forgotten, I would think some criticism is warranted.

[carlonr]

I did not watch the whole card but did you happen to see the 8th race... or were you eyes to welled up with anticipation. The 11 horse was dead last but hit the wire first. I said right there the juiced the track for closers. And in the 9th same thing happened. Coincident you say... :faint: .


They added water to the track! Now which one of the synthetic bashers can dispute that adding water to the poly helps speed horses and not closers!

[andymays]

They added water to the track! Now which one of the synthetic bashers can dispute that adding water to the poly help speeds and not closers!

Carl, given all the articles written by reporters who are not "synthetic bashers" over the last several days, what is it that you like about Polytrack at Del Mar? You say you're intimately involved in Horse Racing yet you ignore what's been going on at Del Mar with the Polytrack. Tedesco has been telling the truth about it on a daily basis and the truth aint good for Polytrack. My question is on which planet are you involved in racing? :rolleyes:

[carlonr]

Maybe calling die hard Z fans somthing like the "moonies" (refering to members of Sun Myung Moon's controversial Unification Movement) would be appropriate.

How about "Zoonies"?

I think when the die hard Z fans bring in "hate" it takes the debate to another level and that level aint good.

Nobody hates Z but they may dislike her campaign. 17 or 18 races were restricted. This year all were restricted. After winning the Classic last year and bringing her back for specific reasons that are now forgotten, I would think some criticism is warranted.

They shipped to Oaklawn. It is not their fault that RA did not show up. They were ready and willing and answered the call. They also said they did not like the effects that shipping to Oaklawn had on Zenyatta. How many other connections would ship again right away if their horse did not handle it to their liking?

[andymays]

They shipped to Oaklawn. It is not their fault that RA did not show up. They were ready and willing and answered the call. They also said they did not like the effects that shipping to Oaklawn had on Zenyatta. How many other connections would ship again right away if their horse did not handle it to their liking?

Nobody who is objective can say that Rachel was anywhere near to being ready for that race. I've said in previous posts that I think Z can probably beat her this year. Last year I'm sure Rachel wins the matchup.

Forget Rachel for a minute. Z won the Classic last year so why is she racing in exclusively restricted races this year?

[carlonr]

Carl, given all the articles written by reporters who are not "synthetic bashers" over the last several days, what is it that you like about Polytrack at Del Mar? You say you're intimately involved in Horse Racing yet you ignore what's been going on at Del Mar with the Polytrack. Tedesco has been telling the truth about it on a daily basis and the truth aint good for Polytrack. My question is on which planet are you involved in racing? :rolleyes:

I am not saying I like polytrack. I am saying that adding water to the poly (which is what Tedesco did on Saturday) benefits speed and not closers. How can you dispute that?

[carlonr]

Nobody who is objective can say that Rachel was anywhere near to being ready for that race. I've said in previous posts that I think Z can probably beat her this year. Last year I'm sure Rachel wins the matchup.

Forget Rachel for a minute. Z won the Classic last year so why is she racing in exclusively restricted races this year?

They are following a formula that has worked for their goal. BCC championship. I am not saying I agree, but I do understand their reasoning. They have always said that the Breeders Cup is the primary goal. I might not like it, but they have been very up front about that for years.

[andymays]

I am not saying I like polytrack. I am saying that adding water to the poly (which is what Tedesco did on Saturday) benefits speed and not closers. How can you dispute that?

I am on record for years now saying that watering helps speed by tightening up the surface. Did they dump a couple of loads on the surface before the race? I think watering in the morning tends to evaporate in the San Diego summer. :eek:

You still haven't answered my question. :eek:

Should Z duck the Classic to have a better chance of staying perfect?

[carlonr]

I am on record for years now saying that watering helps speed. Did they dump a couple of loads on the surface before the race? I think watering in the morning tends to evaporate in the San Diego summer. :eek:

You still haven't answered my question. :eek:

Should Z duck the Classic to have a better chance of staying perfect?

ABSOLUTELY NOT! After beating the boys last year, there is no way she should not face them this year. For the record, I predict a California exacta in the BCC. Zenyatta over Lookin At Lucky.


Also for the record, the watering did not stop in the morning as you say. They watered until 1:30 in the afternoon.
Del Mar Track Maintenance Schedule for 08/08/2010


DATE TIME ACTIVITY DETAILS
08/08/2010 1:00AM - 2:30AM Power Harrow At a 2 1/2 inch depth
08/08/2010 3:00AM - 3:30AM Gallop Master One time around the track at a 2 1/2 inch depth
08/08/2010 4:30AM - 7:30AM Training Horses on Polytrack
08/08/2010 7:30AM - 8:00AM Water One load around the track
08/08/2010 8:00AM - 8:15AM Gallop Master One time around the track at a 2 1/2 inch depth
08/08/2010 8:15AM - 10:15AM Training Horses on Polytrack
08/08/2010 10:15AM - 10:30AM Training Horses on turf
08/08/2010 10:30AM - 10:45AM Gallop Master At a 2 1/2 inch depth
08/08/2010 10:45AM - 11:00AM Water 3 loads of water around the track and chutes
08/08/2010 11:00AM - 11:30AM Gallop Master 3 laps around the track at a 2 1/2 inch depth
08/08/2010 11:30AM - 11:45AM Water One load of water around the track
08/08/2010 11:45AM - 12:00PM Gallop Master At a 2 1/2 inch depth
08/08/2010 12:30PM - 12:45PM Water 2 loads around the track
08/08/2010 12:45PM - 1:00PM Gallop Master At a 2 1/2 inch depth
08/08/2010 1:15PM - 1:30PM Water One load around the track
08/08/2010 1:30PM - 1:45PM Gallop Master At a 2 1/2 inch depth

[Tom]

If you are looking for unbiased moderators on this board, you will be greatly disappointed. Especially in regard to anything having to do with synthetics and the horses that run on them, including Zenyatta.

Why would you expect to.
This is a privately owned forum - of course the owner has a right to his opinions.

[tzipi]

The Zenyatta stakes? Geez,what a shame how they have wasted her over the last two years against low level overmatched horses for mostly easy picking wins. The BC was good even though it was against mostly turf horses. I wish another camp had Zen. The races we could've seen. She probably wouldn't have won all of them but there wouldv'e been some excitement.

[carlonr]

Why would you expect to.
This is a privately owned forum - of course the owner has a right to his opinions. As long as the forum is not presented as unbiased, that is fine. I only have issues when the moderators present themselves as objective or attempting to be fair.

[tzipi]

ABSOLUTELY NOT! After beating the boys last year, there is no way she should not face them this year. For the record, I predict a California exacta in the BCC. Zenyatta over Lookin At Lucky.[/COLOR]

Got to remember though last year they got mostly turf horses in the Classic over a polyturf track. This year will be a full field of top dirt horses over a dirt track. Big difference. They should go there though if she's healthy. She should be and should've been showcased more with the talent she has.

[horses4courses]

I am a supporter of Team Zenyatta.

With that said, I would do a complete 180 if she were to run in the BC Distaff.

That would be inexcusable, imo, as her defense of the BC Classic is key.

She has had a light campaign this year, as she did last year on the road to the BC. However, she was ready for a race at Oaklawn in April against RA.
That didn't work out, so now their focus is on Churchill.

Trying to keep her record intact by dropping her of the Classic?
Gimme a break........

[carlonr]

Got to remember though last year they got mostly turf horses in the Classic over a polyturf track. This year will be a full field of top dirt horses over a dirt track. Big difference. They should go there though if she's healthy. She should be and should've been showcased more with the talent she has.

Zenyatta is better over dirt. You will see! She just glides over it with such ease.

[OntheRail]

I am a supporter of Team Zenyatta.

With that said, I would do a complete 180 if she were to run in the BC Distaff.

That would be inexcusable, imo, as her defense of the BC Classic is key.

She has had a light campaign this year, as she did last year on the road to the BC. However, she was ready for a race at Oaklawn in April against RA.
That didn't work out, so now their focus is on Churchill.

Trying to keep her record intact by dropping her of the Classic?
Gimme a break........

Oaklawn was on the plate in Feb. as we all know but few acknowledge it was not on RA at all.

I do not believe she will run at Churchill in Nov. She may ship in but will develop shipping flu and a fever to save face. Double down on that if it drizzles that day.

[andymays]

ABSOLUTELY NOT! After beating the boys last year, there is no way she should not face them this year. For the record, I predict a California exacta in the BCC. Zenyatta over Lookin At Lucky.


Also for the record, the watering did not stop in the morning as you say. They watered until 1:30 in the afternoon.
Del Mar Track Maintenance Schedule for 08/08/2010


DATE TIME ACTIVITY DETAILS
08/08/2010 1:00AM - 2:30AM Power Harrow At a 2 1/2 inch depth
08/08/2010 3:00AM - 3:30AM Gallop Master One time around the track at a 2 1/2 inch depth
08/08/2010 4:30AM - 7:30AM Training Horses on Polytrack
08/08/2010 7:30AM - 8:00AM Water One load around the track
08/08/2010 8:00AM - 8:15AM Gallop Master One time around the track at a 2 1/2 inch depth
08/08/2010 8:15AM - 10:15AM Training Horses on Polytrack
08/08/2010 10:15AM - 10:30AM Training Horses on turf
08/08/2010 10:30AM - 10:45AM Gallop Master At a 2 1/2 inch depth
08/08/2010 10:45AM - 11:00AM Water 3 loads of water around the track and chutes
08/08/2010 11:00AM - 11:30AM Gallop Master 3 laps around the track at a 2 1/2 inch depth
08/08/2010 11:30AM - 11:45AM Water One load of water around the track
08/08/2010 11:45AM - 12:00PM Gallop Master At a 2 1/2 inch depth
08/08/2010 12:30PM - 12:45PM Water 2 loads around the track
08/08/2010 12:45PM - 1:00PM Gallop Master At a 2 1/2 inch depth
08/08/2010 1:15PM - 1:30PM Water One load around the track
08/08/2010 1:30PM - 1:45PM Gallop Master At a 2 1/2 inch depth


Carl, what time did the race go off? Somewhere around 6:00pm I think.

I asked you if they watered prior to the race. Should I ask again?

[andymays]

I am a supporter of Team Zenyatta.

With that said, I would do a complete 180 if she were to run in the BC Distaff.

That would be inexcusable, imo, as her defense of the BC Classic is key.

She has had a light campaign this year, as she did last year on the road to the BC. However, she was ready for a race at Oaklawn in April against RA.
That didn't work out, so now their focus is on Churchill.

Trying to keep her record intact by dropping her of the Classic?
Gimme a break........

I didn't think they would duck the Classic until this past week.

Shouldn't she have run in at least one unrestricted race already this year after winning the Classic last year? They can't keep proclaiming her to be the best ever and keep campaigning her this way.

[carlonr]

Carl, what time did the race go off? Somewhere around 6:00pm I think.

I asked you if they watered prior to the race. Should I ask again?

I will check with Tedesco regarding any additional watering during the races on Saturday. I think they usually water again after the 5th race, but I will check and make sure regarding Saturday. I also can provide a temperature chart for the day so some of the more scientifically inclined can calculate the rate of evaporation since that is something you also mentioned.

[andymays]

I will check with Tedesco regarding any additional watering during the races on Saturday. I think they usually water again after the 5th race, but I will check and make sure. I also can provide a temperature chart for the day so some of the more scientifically inclined can calculate the rate of evaporation.

They do water in between races. They just don't put it in their schedule and they should. The jockeys look for that and tend to send more when they know they just put water on the track. I would bet that they didn't water before the race but may have watered two or three races prior. I don't think watering or not watering made a difference in the race. They were just trying to survive the day surface wise.

Carl, do you know how absurd that sounds. A temperature chart? You're builiding lots of confidence in the surface. I know they're trying and Tedesco is the best but it's time to give it up. Polytrack at Del Mar has been and is currently a disaster. The public is finally being informed after 4 years.

[horses4courses]

Oaklawn was on the plate in Feb. as we all know but few acknowledge it was not on RA at all.

I do not believe she will run at Churchill in Nov. She may ship in but will develop shipping flu and a fever to save face. Double down on that if it drizzles that day.

Stop me if I'm wrong.

You, also, believe there was a second gunman in the grassy knoll when JFK was assassinated.
You believe the lunar landing was filmed in a studio by NASA somewhere.
UFO sightings in Roswell, NM have been the subject of a massive cover up.

I will give you this, though.
An off-track on BC Saturday is a frightening prospect.
That really could see Team Z call a halt to the proceedings.

[carlonr]

They do water in between races. They just don't put it in their schedule and they should. The jockeys look for that and tend to send more when they know they just put water on the track. I would bet that they didn't water before the race but may have watered two or three races prior. I don't think watering or not watering made a difference in the race. They were just trying to survive the day surface wise.

Carl, do you know how absurd that sounds. A temperature chart? You're builiding lots of confidence in the surface. I know they're trying and Tedesco is the best but it's time to give it up. Polytrack at Del Mar has been and is currently a disaster. The public is finally being informed after 4 years.

I would bet that they did not do anything different than what they do each day. That was the issue in question. You brought up the evaporation issue and I would think that the only way one could effectively evaluate the amount of evaporation is if they new the temperature.

[andymays]

I would bet that they did not do anything different than what they do each day. That was the issue in question. You brought up the evaporation issue and I would think that the only way one could effectively evaluate the amount of evaporation is if they new the temperature.

The fact that we are discussing this is absurd but that's how far off the rails California has gone since the ill advised synthetic mandate.

[horses4courses]

I didn't think they would duck the Classic until this past week.

Shouldn't she have run in at least one unrestricted race already this year after winning the Classic last year? They can't keep proclaiming her to be the best ever and keep campaigning her this way.

As a racing fan, I'd be lying if I said I wouldn't have liked to have seen bigger and better victories for Z this year.

Do her connections owe us that? No.
They are doing what is best for her leading up to the big day.

If I'm wrong about that, I have been well and truly duped.

[andymays]

As a racing fan, I'd be lying if I said I wouldn't have liked to see bigger and better victories for Z this year.

Do her connections owe us that? No.
They are doing what is best for her leading up to the big day.

If I'm wrong about that, I have been well and truly duped.

I already feel duped and have for her last two races. Shouldn't the reigning Breeders Cup Classic champion race in open company at least half of the time?

[carlonr]

I already feel duped and have for her last two races. Shouldn't the reigning Breeders Cup Classic champion race in open company at least half of the time?

I think the owners see the opportunity to do something very impressive with another BCC win. I keep saying that they have consistently stated they are Breeder's Cup people. And win or loose, the hype alone for this years Breeder's Cup will be off the charts! Personally, I would have rather seen Zenyatta run down Blame and Quality Road last Saturday. but IF that would have happened, the buildup to the Breeder's cup would have lost some momentum and I understand that as well.

[Dahoss9698]

Seems to me when you build up to something for too long that it's loses it's luster. That has certainly happened this year. Does anyone even care about seeing Z and RA run against each other anymore?

[carlonr]

The fact that we are discussing this is absurd but that's how far off the rails California has gone since the ill advised synthetic mandate. I know you don't like synthetics, but have you ever investigated the amount of "doctoring of the track" they do at Churchill Downs? Watering (or not watering) a polytrack surface pales in comparison to what they do at Churchill, especially on big days!

[andymays]

I think the owners see the opportunity to do something very impressive with another BCC win. I keep saying that they have consistently stated they are Breeder's Cup people. And win or loose, the hype alone for this years Breeder's Cup will be off the charts! Personally, I would have rather seen Zenyatta run down Blame and Quality Road last Saturday. but IF that would have happened, the buildup to the Breeder's cup would have lost some momentum and I understand that as well.

I think they're getting bad advice from people in their inner circle. Last year they were certain they would win HOY because everyone around them told them so. Heck, TVG and HRTV told everyone so as well. Somebody forgot to tell the people that really voted. Rachel won in a landslide. :eek: They seem to be making the same mistake again this year.

[horses4courses]

I already feel duped and have for her last two races. Shouldn't the reigning Breeders Cup Classic champion race in open company at least half of the time?

I see your point.
The Hollywood GC, or the Pacific Classic, would have been more legitimate as tests for a champion.
Shirreffs sees the big prize in November.
He plans to get her there a fresh horse.

History repeats itself.
They followed the same route last year.
She beat up on plenty of overmatched mares last year too.
However, the BC Classic was different. They nearly didn't run her in it, either.
The carrot of HOY dangling in front of them swayed it, imo.

People hum and haw about her defeating 2nd class turf horses on the plastic.
Make no mistake, she beat some excellent horses that day.
It shocked the hell out of them when Rachel won HOY. RA deserved it.
A tie might have been fitting, but not realistic.

Shirreffs will not deviate from what he feels is best for Zenyatta.
If that means sticking to easier tasks before the biggest test, then so be it.
Racing fans may be disappointed for now. Churchill should make up for that.

[ArlJim78]

I think they're getting bad advice from people in their inner circle. Last year they were certain they would win HOY because everyone around them told them so. Heck, TVG and HRTV told everyone so as well. Somebody forgot to tell the people that really voted. Rachel won in a landslide. :eek: They seem to be making the same mistake again this year.
Are you saying if she repeats in the classic this year, that she will not win HOY?

[andymays]

I know you don't like synthetics, but have you ever investigated the amount of "doctoring of the track" they do at Churchill Downs? Watering (or not watering) a polytrack surface pales in comparison to what they do at Churchill, especially on big days!

Synthetic surfaces are the biggest fraud in the history of horse racing. Ask Tedesco if Polytrack was appropriate for Del Mar. Wait, you don't have to ask him because he said it wasn't in an article this past weekend.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2010/aug/07/zenyatta-ready-extend-streak/

Excerpt:

Tedesco said Polytrack manufacturers have no clue how much attention the synthetic tracks require in a unique climate like Southern California, particularly San Diego.

[carlonr]

I think they're getting bad advice from people in their inner circle. Last year they were certain they would win HOY because everyone around them told them so. Heck, TVG and HRTV told everyone so as well. Somebody forgot to tell the people that really voted. Rachel won in a landslide. :eek: They seem to be making the same mistake again this year.

They truly only care about the Breeders Cup. They are extremely dedicated to everything concerning the Breeders Cup! They are almost as obsessed with the Breeders Cup as you are with synthetics LOL! :lol:

[andymays]

Are you saying if she repeats in the classic this year, that she will not win HOY?

If she wins the Classic this year she will most likely win HOY unless someone like Blame goes undefeated all year but doesn't make the Classic because of some freak incident or injury.

The people who actually vote are not too keen on her schedule so far. In fact I would say they're appalled by it.

[carlonr]

If she wins the Classic this year she will most likely win HOY unless someone like Blame goes undefeated all year but doesn't make the Classic because of some freak incident or injury.

The people who actually vote are not too keen on her schedule so far. In fact I would say they're appalled by it.

The people who actually vote said she can't beat the boys on dirt. Once proven wrong, they will need to have an alternate excuse! Schedule sounds as good as any. If she beats the boys on dirt in the BCC and does not get HOY, the mainstream media will slaughter the voters in the press this year.

[andymays]

The people who actually vote said she can't beat the boys on dirt. Once proven wrong, they will have to have an alternate excuse! Schedule sounds as good as any. If she beats the boys on dirt in the BCC and does not get HOY, the mainstream media will slaughter the voters in the press this year.

They didn't say that. What they said last year was that Rachel did more work in several different states. How many States did Zenyatta win in?

HRTV and TVG manipulated public opinion but they couldn't manipulate the voters.

[ArlJim78]

If she wins the Classic this year she will most likely win HOY unless someone like Blame goes undefeated all year but doesn't make the Classic because of some freak incident or injury.

The people who actually vote are not too keen on her schedule so far. In fact I would say they're appalled by it.
I don't care what her schedule has been, if she shows up and wins the classic again she will be HOY and deservedly so.

[andymays]

I don't care what her schedule has been, if she shows up and wins the classic again she will be HOY and deservedly so.

I think I sort of said that with one condition. ;)

[carlonr]

They didn't say that. What they said last year was that Rachel did more work in several different states. How many States did Zenyatta win in?

HRTV and TVG manipulated public opinion but they couldn't manipulate the voters.

Little known fact: As of 90 days ago. Zenyatta had traveled more miles than Rachael in her career! The eastern states are smaller (in square miles).

[andymays]

Little known fact: As of 90 days ago. Zenyatta had traveled more miles than Rachael in her career! The eastern states are smaller (in square miles).

Including the race at Churchill where she scratched because the track had a little water on it.

The air miles thing is a little absurd but carry on. I don't think they can or will change their votes for 2009. :eek:

[carlonr]

Including the race at Churchill where she scratched because the track had a little water on it.

The air miles thing is a little absurd but carry on. I don't think they can or will change their votes for 2009. :eek: Let me get this right. It's ok for horses to not race because a race is on poly, but it's not ok for Zenyatta to scratch because the track is wet?

[andymays]

Let me get this right. It's ok for horses to not race because a race is on poly, but it's not ok for Zenyatta to scratch because the track is wet?

Pro Ride at Santa Anita is not Poly. It's not even close.

Rachel didn't travel to Santa Anita and then refuse to race there. How many horses with their last race on dirt ran well (won) in the Breeders Cup races the last two years? Rachel would have gotten trounced over that surface (fake turf). There is no question about it in my mind. How many off tracks did Rachel run over?

The voters knew better carlonr. The vote is in already. Z lost.

Bad argument carlonr.

[carlonr]

Pro Ride at Santa Anita is not Poly. It's not even close.

Rachel didn't travel to Santa Anita and then refuse to race there. How many horses with their last race on dirt ran well (won) in the Breeders Cup races the last two years? Rachel would have gotten trounced over that surface (fake turf). There is no question about it in my mind. How many off tracks did Rachel run over?

The voters knew better carlonr. The vote is in already. Z lost.

Bad argument carlonr.

I will not even begin to list the number of great horses that scratched because their connections did not want to run in the mud. I do not recall anyone in the Zenytta camp ever saying she likes mud. Also I was using the word poly in the generic sense, as is commonly done. Synthetics, if you prefer.

[andymays]

I will not even begin to list the number of great horses that scratched because their connections did not want to run in the mud. No one in the Zenytta camp has ever said she likes mud. Also I was using the word poly in the generic sense, as is commonly done. Synthetics, if you prefer.


Bottom line is that the schedule so far is a big dissapointment.

This schedule of running in only restricted races should not be the campaign of a reigning Breeders Cup Classic champion.

[carlonr]

Bottom line is that the schedule so far is a big dissapointment.

This schedule of running in only restricted races should not be the campaign of a reigning Breeders Cup Classic champion.

But then, you don't own the horse.

[andymays]

But then, you don't own the horse.

Really? As far as I know I don't sit on the CHRB board either. I guess that make me a nobody. :eek:

[breezing]

sealed track is different from wet track, but i forgot where i was for a moment......this is the same place where a "high profile" poster claimed that synthetics caused Vodka to bleed and be retired forgetting the fact that she bled in the Japan Cup.......

[carlonr]

Really? As far as I know I don't sit on the CHRB board either. I guess that make me a nobody. :eek:

It just means that its easy to say what should be done with a horse when you don't own the horse. I would have preferred a different campaign. I even wish she had run in Dubai (that mileage thing), but then again I can respect them doing what they think is best for their horse using their goals.

[andymays]

It just means that its easy to say what should be done with a horse when you don't own the horse. I would have preferred a different campaign. I even wish she had run in Dubai (that mileage thing), but then again I can respect them doing what they think is best for their horse using their goals.

Last year I might have agreed with you but the connections have sent out too many mixed signals this year. When she came out of retirement it was for a different purpose. Why the change in "what's best for their horse"?

[carlonr]

Last year I might have agreed with you but the connections have sent out too many mixed signals this year. When she came out of retirement it was for a different purpose. Why the change in "what's best for their horse"?

After she shipped to Oaklawn, the connections stated publicly that they were concerned with how she handled everything, I can't blame them for being cautious if they have concerns. My experience has been that when it comes to stakes caliber horses, most connections prefer to "err on the side of caution." In other words they would rather make a mistake by not running, than by running where or when they shouldn't have. Not saying I agree, but I definitely understand.

[breezing]

what is so hard to understand? she came back from oaklawn freaked out by airplanes, dehydrated, and lost weight.......i can't believe this is so difficult for you. she doesn't ship well......get it?

[BluegrassProf]

what is so hard to understand? she came back from oaklawn freaked out by airplanes, dehydrated, and lost weight.......i can't believe this is so difficult for you. she doesn't ship well......get it?Except for an East coast Breeder's Cup, right?

Rrrrright?

Feel free to not answer - it's a rhetorical question, obviously.

What they're saying is NOT "she doesn't travel, and we care about her so we're keeping her at home;" they're pretty clearly saying "we don't care about a damned thing apart from the Breeder's Cup and will send her only to the race we're banking on," and ye gawds if the facts on the ground thus far don't support this very thing just 115%. And hey, that's just fine, but don't for one second think such a laughable runaround is fooling anyone with even a lick o' smarts.

This is all so "difficult to understand" (as you say) for three fairly fundamental reasons:

1.) It's logically nonsensical (see above),
2.) It's the polar opposite of what we were promised outright, and
3.) It's FAR less than substantial for a horse of her ability.

Looking for something easy to understand? Well, there ya go.

If you're chiding the many here displaying absolutely justified disappointment at Zenyatta's 2010, trust me, you're yapping up the wrong tree. As a fan, you should be the first in line demanding something grand. Go figure.

[turfnsport]

The people who actually vote are not too keen on her schedule so far. In fact I would say they're appalled by it.

I disagree. While some voters are informed, many are not. All they will see is six consecutive Grade 1 races. Period. I'm guessing most voters will not have their vote affected by her schedule.

[Tom]

How many easterners will duck the Zenyatta Stakes?
They know where she is, all they have to do is ship in to face her and make a a name for themselves.

[andymays]

Zenyatta no lock for Horse of the Year

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/horse/columns/story?columnist=moran_paul&id=5449054

Excerpt:

Though the unexpected tends to interject itself often in this game, it appears possible, if all the cards fall face-up, that there is a momentum of potential building toward yet another season-ending Horse of the Year controversy in which Zenyatta is one of the central figures.

As was the case at the end of 2009, there is a contender positioned to challenge Zenyatta despite her still-in-progress, unblemished 18-race career that may reach 20 wins before Eclipse Award polling is conducted. Last year, Rachel Alexandra was voted Horse of the Year, inspiring a burst of outraged pique that rivaled a week-old Southern California wildfire driven by a Santa Ana wind. Difference of opinion is racing's life force, except in California, where it is immutable evidence of "East Coast bias," a figment of the sunburned imagination.

Excerpt:

This time, the imagined "East Coast bias" would be no factor. Blame is based in Kentucky, trained at Keeneland and had raced only once in New York, more than a year ago, before the Whitney. He will soon be home. "We'll take him back to Keeneland in a couple of weeks," Stall said, "let him train there, and bring him back up to Belmont."

Ultimately, the location of the Breeders' Cup may play to his strength. Not insignificantly, Blame will end his campaign at Churchill Downs, where he is 3-for-4 and undefeated beyond 7 furlongs.

Even now, you can almost hear the whining.

[andymays]

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/58307/countdown-to-the-cup-and-then-came-blame

Excerpt:

Now will it be on to the (ugh!) Zenyatta Stakes? There is something quite disturbing and bizarre about running Zenyatta in a race bearing her name. Oak Tree’s decision to give Lady’s Secret the boot “10 minutes” after the Breeders’ Cup Classic (gr. I) was a bad move in itself, but refusing to change it back until Zenyatta retires is pigheaded. And running Zenyatta in the Zenyatta is only asking for trouble. But all signs right now are pointing in that direction, as she apparently is remaining in California to follow the same schedule she did the past two years. You can bet John Shirreffs is not afraid of offending the racing gods. He is too firmly attached to the ground to ponder such nonsense.

[FenceBored]

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/58307/countdown-to-the-cup-and-then-came-blame

Excerpt:

Now will it be on to the (ugh!) Zenyatta Stakes? There is something quite disturbing and bizarre about running Zenyatta in a race bearing her name. Oak Tree’s decision to give Lady’s Secret the boot “10 minutes” after the Breeders’ Cup Classic (gr. I) was a bad move in itself, but refusing to change it back until Zenyatta retires is pigheaded. And running Zenyatta in the Zenyatta is only asking for trouble. But all signs right now are pointing in that direction, as she apparently is remaining in California to follow the same schedule she did the past two years. You can bet John Shirreffs is not afraid of offending the racing gods. He is too firmly attached to the ground to ponder such nonsense.

What's wrong with the Goodwood (G1, 9f, same track, same day)?

[tzipi]

Zenyatta is better over dirt. You will see! She just glides over it with such ease.

Never said she couldn't handle dirt. I said it's going to be a different field in the BC. It won't be a bunch on turf horses in this years Classic or dirt horses trying to run over a turf like surface. It will be a full field with top male dirt horses. Anyway,the connections should've been taking down the best and top purses on dirt(or Pacific classic on poly),not low level overmatched horses on polyturf every race. There could've been some exciting races over the last two years with Zen.

[ArlJim78]

Welcome to Zenyatta Watch, brought to you by andymays.

Scanning the newswires 24/7 bringing you all the drama as it breaks.

[andymays]

Welcome to Zenyatta Watch, brought to you by andymays.

Scanning the newswires 24/7 bringing you all the drama as it breaks.
You're welcome. ;)

[Show Me the Wire]

Andymays, tsk,tsk.

You bemoan the fact So. Cal racing is serious trouble, yet you belittle its positive factor. Zenyetta fills the stand (track attendance), increases the wagering handle and generates interest in the sport.

If the sport had more Zenyetta type horses the ills of the sport would be cured.

Based on handle and attendance, it doesn't matter to the So. Cal. general wagering public or the spectators, if she races against males or females.

Anyone participating in So. Cal racing should be grateful for all the positives Zenyatta brings when she appears on the track.

[Audioslavery]

CJ,

I said this a couple weeks ago. The goals are;

1. retire undefeated
2. retire undefeated
3. retire undefeated

She will retire 19-0. Not 19-1. Not 20-0. The Zenyatta Stakes will be her last start.

The odds of this happening grow every day. To me, this has already happened, and I'm just trying to figure out the means to that end.

Tom

This is asinine. :lol:

Sure, her connections are fixated on being the winningest horse in history, but why would they #1 merely tie the record and #2 not DEFEND HER TITLE!?

I think some of these racing fans spend a little too much time at the OTB and not watching other professional sports... This is not how sports work.

[andymays]

Andymays, tsk,tsk.

You bemoan the fact So. Cal racing is serious trouble, yet you belittle its positive factor. Zenyetta fills the stand (track attendance), increases the wagering handle and generates interest in the sport.

If the sport had more Zenyetta type horses the ills of the sport would be cured.

Based on handle and attendance, it doesn't matter to the So. Cal. general wagering public or the spectators, if she races against males or females.

Anyone participating in So. Cal racing should be grateful for all the positives Zenyatta brings when she appears on the track.

Good points.

I don't really participate in California racing since they went synthetic. I live 20 minutes away from Del Mar and have no desire to go there. Soon they will be raising takeout. There is corruption at the CHRB and the Track Owners along with the CHRB treat Horseplayers like an necessary evil.

So yes, she is good for live attendance and handle in California but when they do the opposite of what they said they were gonna do when they unretired her then someone needs to call them on it. The political correctness on this issue is sickening from some circles in California. They proclaimed her to be the best in the world after the Classic and are still saying the same thing to this day. Why race in restricted races in California. At least take on the Hollywood Gold Cup or the Pacific Classic for goodness sake. That would help California as well would it not?

[Show Me the Wire]

How so Andymays? Increased handle, attendance and interest are a result of her participating in a race and is not dependent on a specific type of race.

BTW if you don't participate why do you care what happens in So. Cal?

[joanied]

First of all...thank you, andy, for "scanning the newswires to bring us all the drama as it breaks" :ThmbUp: (sure saves me time & trouble:jump: )...

Since I am a huge Zen fan, and I'm not affraid to say she still gives me goosebumps and teary eyes...and a big smile watching her dance moves...she simply takes my breath away!! She's done so much for this sport, regardless of how she's done it...the people love her and it's true, if we had a few more like her, IMO, casual fans would be more plentiful.
That said, I am also very bummed that her connections say one thing and do another...it would be a classy thing to do, if Jerry Moss would make a public statement about how they are handeling her campaign this year, and to apolgize for not doing what he said...bring Zenny to the folks (outside of CA.) and show her off.
I can understand that she isn't a good shipper...IMO, it's pretty obvious that she is an exciteable mare...she has a nervous thing about her, which is why she probably 'taught' herself to 'dance', which is why they put cotton in her ears, and is probably why she came back from Oaklawn dehydrated and she did loose weight. So, if keeping her home helps her, we sure can't deny them that...
but...they need to just tell everyone the real reason they don't want to ship her much is because she just cannot deal with it...everyone would understand...don't tell us things like that crap about the Rockies, or that Sherriff's doesn't want to leave his horses...I'm sure he knows they'll be just fine if he isn't there for a few weeks...if she did ship to Belmont for the Beldame, I have no doubt, they'd bend over backwards to accomodate her while she's there...the best of everything...and if she goes, IMO, it'd be the best thing to leave her there for a couple of weeks, then ship into Churchill two weeks before the BC...she'll settle in and feel at home...at least, you'd think so, despite her nervous disposition.
But, hey...who knows...we aren't with her 24/7...so, although her campaign this year really sucks, and we have every right to voice our thoughts about it...and about the fact they give lame excuses and change their minds faster than the weather here in WY. changes...I think we have to respect what they do, concerning Zenny...I don't like it...but it is what it is.

I hope they don't run her in the 'Zenyatta'...I hope she'll face some CA. colts in her next race or ship to the Beldame....forget the Personal Ensign...never happen...
but come BC Day, I hope all the questions will be answered...Paulick has a poll up now about who folks think will win the Classic...majority voted for Zenyatta...I voted that way too...IMO, if Zen had been racing on dirt, and facing tougher competition, she's still be 18-0...
well, we still have 3 months to hash this out, over & over again...meantime, I am enjoying the mare, I am feeling lucky to be here to witness her legacy, and to feast my eyes on one of the most beautiful race horses I've ever seen...and certainly, one of the greatest. Nothing and no one will take the shine off her for me...she's "un-be-leeeevable":jump:

[andymays]

How so Andymays? Increased handle, attendance and interest are a result of her participating in a race and is not dependent on a specific type of race.

BTW if you don't participate why do you care what happens in So. Cal?

By participate I mean attending live racing.

When the connections and the "zoonies" (taken from Moonies. Moonie (plural Moonies) is a term which refers to members of the Unification Church) proclaim her to be the best on the planet they have an obligation to take on all comers and prove it.

Can you explain why they would choose to not run in the Hollywood Gold Cup or the Pacific Classic if she is the best on the planet? Did they just want to give those horses a break?

[TommyCh]

Back to earlier in the thread, Todd Schrupp was in full bobblehead, wide-eyed reefer madness hype-pump mode on Saturday. Every third word out of his pie hole was "Zenyatta". Couple of the other guys just said "yeah, but not much of a race."

It was funny, but on the other hand, it wasn't.

[OntheRail]

Stop me if I'm wrong.

You, also, believe there was a second gunman in the grassy knoll when JFK was assassinated.
You believe the lunar landing was filmed in a studio by NASA somewhere.
UFO sightings in Roswell, NM have been the subject of a massive cover up.

I will give you this, though.
An off-track on BC Saturday is a frightening prospect.
That really could see Team Z call a halt to the proceedings.


STOP!

[carlonr]

[QUOTE=joanied]First of all...thank you, andy, for "scanning the newswires to bring us all the drama as it breaks" :ThmbUp: (sure saves me time & trouble:jump: )...

I'm sure Andy will post this but I just ran across it today. The foremost authority on racetrack surfaces is conducting a study in California. If I did this correctly you can click on the link below.

Study (http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/58293/mick-peterson-to-undertake-santa-anita-study)

[andymays]

[QUOTE=joanied]First of all...thank you, andy, for "scanning the newswires to bring us all the drama as it breaks" :ThmbUp: (sure saves me time & trouble:jump: )...

I'm sure Andy will post this but I just ran across it today. The foremost authority on racetrack surfaces is conducting a study in California. If I did this correctly you can click on the link below.

Study (http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/58293/mick-peterson-to-undertake-santa-anita-study)

Someone already posted it. Do you have a point?

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=73911

[carlonr]

By participate I mean attending live racing.

When the connections and the "zoonies" (taken from Moonies. Moonie (plural Moonies) is a term which refers to members of the Unification Church) proclaim her to be the best on the planet they have an obligation to take on all comers and prove it.

Can you explain why they would choose to not run in the Hollywood Gold Cup or the Pacific Classic if she is the best on the planet? Did they just want to give those horses a break?

I can think of one other sport that has similarities.. Boxing. Usually a champion does not go from fighting the #1 challenger to fighting the next #1 challenger. They usually fight from 2-4 lesser fights before they take on a #1 challenger again. The location of the fight is usually on the terms the champion dictates. There is also the generational discussions. Personally I think Muhammad Ali was greatest fighter of all time. I have a friend who is 73 years old and he says Joe Louis was definitely the best. We verbally battle who was best frequently.

[andymays]

I can think of one other sport that has similarities.. Boxing. Usually a champion does not go from fighting the #1 challenger to fighting the next #1 challenger. They usually fight from 2-4 lesser fights before they take on a #1 challenger again. The location of the fight is usually on the terms the champion dictates. There is also the generational discussions. Personally I think Muhammad Ali was greatest fighter of all time. I have a friend who is 73 years old and he says Joe Louis was definitely the best. We verbally battle who was best frequently.

The difference is that they don't drop in class and fight women do they?

[carlonr]

The difference is that they don't drop in class and fight women do they?


Just saying there are some similarities.

[andymays]

Just saying there are some similarities.

Her schedule of restricted races is a great dissapointment so far. Most people agree on that.

[carlonr]

[QUOTE=carlonr]

Someone already posted it. Do you have a point?

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=73911

Did not know it was posted. My point is that an recognized authority is conducting the study. I have no idea what the findings will be. It will however be refreshing to hear the findings from a objective, authoritative point of view. He might say California synthetics are junk, he might say they're the best thing since sliced bread... I have no idea. I am one of those people out here that would like to hear from the experts before I form a solid opinion one way or the other.

[BluegrassProf]

[QUOTE=andymays]

Did not know it was posted. My point is that an recognized authority is conducting the study. I have no idea what the findings will be. It will however be refreshing to hear the findings from a objective, authoritative point of view. He might say California synthetics are junk, he might say they're the best thing since sliced bread... I have no idea. I am one of those people out here that would like to hear from the experts before I form a solid opinion one way or the other.Darn right! Let the ever-authoritative study do the talking, not the horses or trainers or owners or jockeys or exercise riders or superintendents or bettors or fans.

Right on, Mr. Tennyson: ours is not to reason why, indeed! :ThmbUp:

By all means, carry on...

[andymays]

[QUOTE=andymays]

Did not know it was posted. My point is that an recognized authority is conducting the study. I have no idea what the findings will be. It will however be refreshing to hear the findings from a objective, authoritative point of view. He might say California synthetics are junk, he might say they're the best thing since sliced bread... I have no idea. I am one of those people out here that would like to hear from the experts before I form a solid opinion one way or the other.

I'm pretty sure I know what he's going to say. :eek: :rolleyes:

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/58293/mick-peterson-to-undertake-santa-anita-study

Excerpt:

Peterson is widely considered to be the foremost authority on track surfaces, particularly synthetic surfaces such as the one at Santa Anita.
----------------------------------------------
California racing has made one bad decsion after another. Maybe they should take a clue from Seinfeld. Whatever they decide to do they should do the opposite.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lq8U2pqmWU

“ If every instinct you have is wrong, then the opposite would have to be right”

[carlonr]

Her schedule of restricted races is a great dissapointment so far. Most people agree on that. Personally, I wanted her to run in the Pacific Classic, but its not my call.

[andymays]

Personally, I wanted her to run in the Pacific Classic, but its not my call.

Why isn't it their call? Why wasn't the Hollywood Gold Cup their call?

[carlonr]

Why isn't it their call? Why wasn't the Hollywood Gold Cup their call?


My thoughts are they probably wanted to follow the path they followed the year before as closely as possible. The one thing I am certain of is their dedication to "all things Breeders Cup"

[andymays]

My thoughts are they probably wanted to follow the path they followed the year before as closely as possible. The one thing I am certain of is their dedication to "all things Breeders Cup"

That wasn't what they wanted when they brought her out of retirement.

[Vinnie]

Their dedication to the Breeders Cup is apparently vastly overridden by their dedication to maintain her undefeated status at essentially any and all cost. I love Zenyatta, but, it is ridiculous that she has continually raced only against competition that has been virtually hand picked and in restricted company for all of her races but one this year. Not her fault of course. She can only run where she is placed by her connections. I love the Big Girl and yes she is awesome for racing. But, c'mon to her connections. Do they truly believe that the vast majority of the people out there (racing fans) can't see through the enormous facade that they have worked so hard to construct in the development of her racing campaign so far this year? I wish Big Z only the BEST, but, essentially shouldn't all of the races she has run this year have been in open company? She is the winner of this past years BC Classic!

[letswastemoney]

Their dedication to the Breeders Cup is apparently vastly overridden by their dedication to maintain her undefeated status at essentially any and all cost. I love Zenyatta, but, it is ridiculous that she has continually raced only against competition that has been virtually hand picked and in restricted company for all of her races but one this year. Not her fault of course. She can only run where she is placed by her connections. I love the Big Girl and yes she is awesome for racing. But, c'mon to her connections. Do they truly believe that the vast majority of the people out there (racing fans) can't see through the enormous facade that they have worked so hard to construct in the development of her racing campaign so far this year? I wish Big Z only the BEST, but, essentially shouldn't all of the races she has run this year have been in open company? She is the winner of this past years BC Classic!
Judging by how she keeps winnings polls on Bloodhorse and DRF as the best mare ever, most racing fans cannot see through the enormous facade.

Never have I seen so much emotion in defending one horse than I've seen from Zenyatta fans.

[Relwob Owner]

Judging by how she keeps winnings polls on Bloodhorse and DRF as the best mare ever, most racing fans cannot see through the enormous facade.

Never have I seen so much emotion in defending one horse than I've seen from Zenyatta fans.


Here is a question-why arent her fans more pissed about her schedule? If I was a Z fan, the connections would drive me just as nuts as the anti Z people because I would want her to run against the best more frequently.

[OntheRail]

My thoughts are they probably wanted to follow the path they followed the year before as closely as possible. The one thing I am certain of is their dedication to "all things Breeders Cup"

Ok last year they could hang their hat for not shipping East on the BC. We accepted that then... hey did not ship outside of California cause the BC was at SA ok. What is their excuses for not shipping and running in soft spots this year? Now you say they are Breeders Cup People... all about the CUP. Well this year it's on DIRT at Churchill... they stated they ship her East to show her off to the rest of the country. Which they have not done. If they are all things cup why not get her some races in on the surface that the CUP will be run on DIRT?

[carlonr]

That wasn't what they wanted when they brought her out of retirement.

I don't think it's that rare for a projected campaign to change in horse racing. The plans are usually mapped out and then its a race by race decision. For instance, I don't think the connections of St Trinians are sticking with their original plan for the year. It's the nature of the game. RA was supposed to show up a Oaklawn, but the connections changed their game plan after... well you know the rest of the story.

[carlonr]

Ok last year they could hang their hat for not shipping East on the BC. We accepted that then... hey did not ship outside of California cause the BC was at SA ok. What is their excuses for not shipping and running in soft spots this year? Now you say they are Breeders Cup People... all about the CUP. Well this year it's on DIRT at Churchill... they stated they ship her East to show her off to the rest of the country. Which they have not done. If they are all things cup why not get her some races in on the surface that the CUP will be run on DIRT?

They shipped to Oaklawn, why so many people disregard that, I don't know. There is no carved in stone strategy for every horse to have x amount of dirt preps. Often times pure stakes turf horses will take a shot on the dirt without any preps.

[letswastemoney]

Here is a question-why arent her fans more pissed about her schedule? If I was a Z fan, the connections would drive me just as nuts as the anti Z people because I would want her to run against the best more frequently.
I don't know. If I had to guess, deep down they don't want to see her race in spots she can lose either or they'd have to admit some of the criticism might be right.

[horses4courses]

Has Rachel Alexander's schedule so far this year been any tougher than Zenyatta's?

Or, is her schedule justified because she got off to a slow start?

She is, after all, the reigning HOY.......... ;)

[andymays]

Has Rachel Alexander's schedule so far this year been any tougher than Zenyatta's?

Or, is her schedule justified because she got off to a slow start?

She is, after all, the reigning HOY.......... ;)


Her connections havent' been bragging on her all year as the best in the country and the world.

[cj]

Has Rachel Alexander's schedule so far this year been any tougher than Zenyatta's?

Or, is her schedule justified because she got off to a slow start?

She is, after all, the reigning HOY.......... ;)

She did demolish a horse that won a G1 in her next race. I think the beginning of her season was justified, but the race at Monmouth, no way. That was garbage.

[thaskalos]

She did demolish a horse that won a G1 in her next race. I think the beginning of her season was justified, but the race at Monmouth, no way. That was garbage. How can I disagree with you...when you make perfect sense?:ThmbUp:

[carlonr]

I don't know. If I had to guess, deep down they don't want to see her race in spots she can lose either or they'd have to admit some of the criticism might be right.

Maybe they realize that the other horses won't show up anyway! Seriously though, By going to Oaklawn and Churchill she will have logged considerably more miles than most others in the BCC this year.

[OntheRail]

She did demolish a horse that won a G1 in her next race. I think the beginning of her season was justified, but the race at Monmouth, no way. That was garbage.

How's a races get the nod for Graded Status? High Purses and Quality/Class Runners. Think about it SA stiffed Lady's Secret by renaming it the Zenyatta. Rachel Runs at Monmouth and what was that race called? I bet it get a Grading Soon. Call it garbage if you like I think it was a poke in the eye of SA and shot in the arm for Lady's Secret memory. ;)

[carlonr]

How's a races get the nod for Graded Status? High Purses and Quality/Class Runners. Think about it SA stiffed Lady's Secret by renaming it the Zenyatta. Rachel Runs at Monmouth and what was that race called? I bet it get a Grading Soon. Call it garbage if you like I think it was a poke in the eye of SA and shot in the arm for Lady's Secret memory. ;)


RA will never run against Zenyatta. RA will opt for the Ladies Classic instead

[FenceBored]

RA will never run against Zenyatta. RA will opt for the Ladies Classic instead

The record's stuck ... the record's stuck .... the record's stuck ... the record's stuck ...

[OntheRail]

RA will never run against Zenyatta. RA will opt for the Ladies Classic instead

Your right Rachel will not ship to Cali to run on plastic cause the BC is on Dirt at Churchill this year. As far as the BC Zenyatta will have a sniffle and stay in the barn... :lol:

[carlonr]

How's a races get the nod for Graded Status? High Purses and Quality/Class Runners. Think about it SA stiffed Lady's Secret by renaming it the Zenyatta. Rachel Runs at Monmouth and what was that race called? I bet it get a Grading Soon. Call it garbage if you like I think it was a poke in the eye of SA and shot in the arm for Lady's Secret memory. ;)


RA will never run against Zenyatta. RA will opt for the Ladies Classic instead

[OntheRail]

RA will never run against Zenyatta. RA will opt for the Ladies Classic instead
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=949021&postcount=155 :rolleyes:

[BluegrassProf]

The record's stuck ... the record's stuck .... the record's stuck ... the record's stuck ...Wholly accurate and repeatedly prophetic... :D

[KingChas]

To play devil's advocate, I'm not sure I'd be looking to take on bigger and better after her last few efforts.

I have to agree,let's take into account Zenyatta is getting older every race.
As with any athlete the day will come,if you stay too long.

http://www.wowhorses.com/horse-age.html

[KingChas]

Just to clarify my above statement.
Zenyatta is a phenom.

The greatest older mare (6+) we will ever see in our lifetime.
(No surface BS on this please)

6 years old and still running big races is phenominal.
(No BSF comments on this please,she just wins)

Do I want to see her retire..............no.

But the clock is surely ticking............ ;)

[letswastemoney]

Just to clarify my above statement.
Zenyatta is a phenom.

The greatest older mare (6+) we will ever see in our lifetime.
(No surface BS on this please)

6 years old and still running big races is phenominal.
(No BSF comments on this please,she just wins)

Do I want to see her retire..............no.

But the clock is surely ticking............ ;)
That's because every decent mare retires before they are 6

[andymays]

http://www.horseraceinsider.com/west-coast-wash/08102010-a-question-for-zenyatta-quo-vadis/

Excerpt:

Jamgotchian, a Manhattan Beach developer who is California racing's harshest critic, took exception to jockey Mike Smith's comment that Zenyatta's win in the Hirsch was easier than it looked. Smith said that Zenyatta, typically, lollygagged in the stretch after he sent her to the lead too soon.

"I don't know," Jamgotchian said, "but what I saw was (Smith) hitting her pretty good three or four times with his whip. That didn't look to me like she was winning as she pleased."

You must know by now that Jamgotchian is the contrarian's contrarian. He also questioned Smith's post-race remark about Zenyatta becoming the greatest horse of all-time if she wins two more and finishes her career at perfect vision, 20-20.

"I can't see that," Jamgotchian said. "The best I can give her is the best California-raced horse of all time. That should piss everybody off."

By skipping the Beldame and not running in New York, Zenyatta will once more invite the disdain of Eclipse Awards voters back there. But no matter where she preps, a second win over males in the Breeders' Cup Classic, this time while running over old-fashioned dirt at Churchill Downs, will win back the voters, who will have no Rachel Alexandra as an alternate as they did in 2009. Never write off a horse until they've been dead for 10 years, the trainer Charlie Whittingham used to say, but it's difficult to muster any enthusiasm for Rachel Alexandra at this juncture. The 2010 Horse of the Year title is Zenyatta's to lose. She could even lose the race and win the title, if some goofball horse like Volponi or Arcangues would win the Classic. Voters' remorse from 2009, Zenyatta's horde of supporters might bray. I would say, Probably just the right thing to do.

[andymays]

http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-oak-tree-20100810,0,4797636.story

Excerpt:

Looming above all of this is Zenyatta, the sport's current biggest star, whose handlers deeply dislike synthetic surfaces. Owners Jerry and Ann Moss and trainer John Shirreffs held their breath Saturday at Del Mar, where they let her run for victory No. 18. But their dislike of that Polytrack synthetic surface was evident.

The next race for Zenyatta could be a rich stakes race at Oak Tree, maybe even the one that is named after her. But if Oak Tree stays at Santa Anita, it could conceivably lose its biggest attraction and best day to another track, back East, where the surface is dirt.

[GaryG]

"The best I can give her is the best California-raced horse of all time. That should piss everybody off."Well, Affirmed was raced primarily in California. I doubt that many on this board would take Z over him. Not to mention Sunday Silence. Round Table split his time between SoCal and Chicago. Then there was Ack Ack, the most versatile of them all. Zenyatta is in the top ten CA raced.

[cj]

Well, Affirmed was raced primarily in California. I doubt that many on this board would take Z over him. Not to mention Sunday Silence. Round Table split his time between SoCal and Chicago. Then there was Ack Ack, the most versatile of them all. Zenyatta is in the top ten CA raced.

She is certainly not better than Sunday Silence.

[Tom]

I don't even think Jamgotchian is one of the top writers! :rolleyes:

[how cliche]

All I know is the more times they race this mare against cupcakes in her own backyard the more I can't help but root for her to lose. Compare that to last year's eclipse award winning champion Horse Of The Year who undertook such an ambitious campaign that I couldn't help but root for her to win.

I think I'm like most fans in that I appreciate boldness. I'm doubtful I'd be rooting against her, even if she'd not shipped, but if she at least competed in each of the SoCal meet's premiere events. The Big 'Cap, The Gold Cup, The Pacific Classic. Lava Man did that, for cying out loud.

Imo, Denman further hurts her appeal by proclaiming her the greatest horse on the planet. It's my opinion that at least her entire 5 and 6 year old campaigns are devoid of championship credentials, excepting one moment that was more dramatic than proving. I suppose this is the modern game.

If you're like me, hoping she'll lay an egg at Churchill to close out her career, realize it's unlikely, because her trainer John Shireffs is the best in the biz at achieving a one race goal. Like it or not, she's likely to put her best foot forward. I just hope it's not good enough. In fact I hope she misses the board.

One dramatic moment in an otherwise uninspiring campaign does not earn a championship in the heart and mind of this racing fan.

[classhandicapper]

Her last start before the Breeder's Cup Classic has always been the toughest choice to make because there is very limited evidence for how best to prepare a synthetic horse for 10F on the dirt.

Some horses run huge efforts on dirt off synthetic but then seem to bounce badly after that.

Some continue running well.

Several horses have run huge races in the Derby off synthetic preps (including a winner).

This is not an easy choice.

[KingChas]

That's because every decent mare retires before they are 6

To play devil's advocate II, whys that?
Maybe it's due too the racing surface........... :D

[Phantombridgejumpe]

I realize her campaign has not been great, can't even make a case that it has been strong. But, I guess I look at the glass as half full; she could have been retired for good as an undefeated champion. Every time she runs they take a risk (however small) that she could lose.

I really don't see how anyone can make a case the Vanity was not an exciting race this year, that did get me juiced for sure (without a penny on the race).

If they announce they are for certain running in the Zenyatta it would be nice to see Rachel see out to race her.

Oh, and by the way, I did once see a harness horse, Rambling Willie, win his own race (by about a nose).

[Pick6]

Well, Affirmed was raced primarily in California. I doubt that many on this board would take Z over him. Not to mention Sunday Silence. Round Table split his time between SoCal and Chicago. Then there was Ack Ack, the most versatile of them all. Zenyatta is in the top ten CA raced.
Ignoring the greatest Cal-bred/campaigned horse ever: Swaps. And certainly more versatile than Ack Ack, winning from 1 mile to 1 5/8 miles, setting world records all over the place.

I'd put Zenyatta a hair past Typecast as best Cal-campaigned mare ever, with Gamely at #3. Typecast's 1972 campaign was probably the best ever for a 6 year old mare.

[tucker6]

Ignoring the greatest Cal-bred/campaigned horse ever: Swaps. And certainly more versatile than Ack Ack, winning from 1 mile to 1 5/8 miles, setting world records all over the place.

I'd put Zenyatta a hair past Typecast as best Cal-campaigned mare ever, with Gamely at #3. Typecast's 1972 campaign was probably the best ever for a 6 year old mare.
I'm not disagreeing with you mind you, but I find it interesting that on the same forum today, some are saying Zenyatta is the greatest H.O.A.T., and others say that she may be tied for third best mare in California history. Hell, she may not even be the best 6 year old mare in CA history.

The agony of it all. :bang:

[GaryG]

Ignoring the greatest Cal-bred/campaigned horse ever: Swaps. And certainly more versatile than Ack Ack, winning from 1 mile to 1 5/8 miles, setting world records all over the place.Ack Ack won at 5 1/2 furlongs, won the Autumd Days at 6 1/2F on turf and both the Big Cap and Hol Gold Cup at 10F. Swaps world records were 8F and 8 1/2F both at Hollywood Park.

[Tom]

Her last start before the Breeder's Cup Classic has always been the toughest choice to make because there is very limited evidence for how best to prepare a synthetic horse for 10F on the dirt.

Some horses run huge efforts on dirt off synthetic but then seem to bounce badly after that.

Some continue running well.

Several horses have run huge races in the Derby off synthetic preps (including a winner).

This is not an easy choice.

Some run a race or two on dirt, do well ,then break down.

[PaceAdvantage]

I see.
So, posts like mine fuel the fire for animosity, yet your sidekick cj can refer to those who speak up in favor of the mare as "Z-turds"?

That really does wonders to bring a little objectivity into the debate.I never said I liked that either. But just as I don't stop you from posting what you wish, why would you want me to stop him?

[PaceAdvantage]

If you are looking for unbiased moderators on this board, you will be greatly disappointed. Especially in regard to anything having to do with synthetics and the horses that run on them, including Zenyatta.I'll ask you again. Has any moderator deleted and/or altered any of your pro-synthetic or pro-Zenyatta posts or threads?

Oh, the answer is NO? I thought so.

So where is the bias?

One can have an opinion AND be a fair moderator. My message board has been around since 1999 and by all accounts is as popular as ever.

How is yours doing?

[thaskalos]

My message board has been around since 1999 and by all accounts is as popular as ever.

How is yours doing? Agreed...but you have failed to acknowledge the very reason that your message board "is as popular as ever".

The Zenyatta fans...and their keen debating prowess.

[PaceAdvantage]

I am not saying I like polytrack. I am saying that adding water to the poly (which is what Tedesco did on Saturday) benefits speed and not closers. How can you dispute that?I suppose one might assume putting water on polytrack speeds it up, but is there anything beyond anecdotal evidence to support such a theory?

[PaceAdvantage]

As long as the forum is not presented as unbiased, that is fine. I only have issues when the moderators present themselves as objective or attempting to be fair.We are objective and fair. We allow all opinions to be presented. I'll ask you for the 5th time. Have any of your pro-Zenyatta or pro-synthetic postings been deleted or altered in any way?

[PaceAdvantage]

Zenyatta is better over dirt. You will see! She just glides over it with such ease.You mean she doesn't glide over AWS with ease?

[PaceAdvantage]

I will give you this, though.
An off-track on BC Saturday is a frightening prospect.
That really could see Team Z call a halt to the proceedings.Why do her connections believe she won't handle an off track? She has never raced over one, and I am going to assume since she is based in Cali, she has never trained over one either...

[PaceAdvantage]

Does anyone even care about seeing Z and RA run against each other anymore?I certainly do...if only because I think RA will soundly defeat Zenyatta.

[PaceAdvantage]

I know you don't like synthetics, but have you ever investigated the amount of "doctoring of the track" they do at Churchill Downs? Watering (or not watering) a polytrack surface pales in comparison to what they do at Churchill, especially on big days!Seems like they have been doing tons of doctoring at Del Mar since even before the meet started...can't believe one can mess with a track any more than the folks at Del Mar have this year...short of digging it up...

[PaceAdvantage]

If she wins the Classic this year she will most likely win HOY unless someone like Blame goes undefeated all year but doesn't make the Classic because of some freak incident or injury.Given the way this year has gone, if she wins the BCC, nothing short of the end of the world can prevent her from getting HOY...and rightfully so.

[PaceAdvantage]

Little known fact: As of 90 days ago. Zenyatta had traveled more miles than Rachael in her career! The eastern states are smaller (in square miles).I find this hard to believe...source?

[PaceAdvantage]

RA will never run against Zenyatta. RA will opt for the Ladies Classic insteadYeah, and you were probably one of the ones who said she would never run at 10 furlongs either. Unless team Rachel is lying, her next start is going to be at 10 furlongs.

If Zenyatta's connections had any confidence in their supposed world beater, they'd be reserving a trip to Saratoga in 17 days...but they chose to run against horses like Rinterval instead... :lol:

And if Zenyatta fans had any confidence in their horse, they would have been clamoring for the showdown at Saratoga as well, instead of these lame "they're Breeders' Cup people" excuses.

Breeders' Cup is on dirt in 2010. Zenyatta fans say dirt and 10 furlongs is Zenyatta at her BEST. Zenyatta fans say 10 furlongs is Rachel at her WORST. How can you not be drooling at the prospect of a nice Breeders' Cup prep on the same type of surface and same distance? And against the current Horse of the Year to boot?

What a shame for the sport in a time when it badly needs match ups like what could have happened in the Personal Ensign (and what a story that would be...the undefeated Zenyatta taking on the HOY in a race named after another undefeated legend)....

I'm surprised Hollywood folks like the Mosses aren't jumping at this type of Hollywood ending...

[PaceAdvantage]

Wow, talk about machine-gun style posting... :lol:

[thaskalos]

What a shame for the sport in a time when it badly needs match ups like what could have happened in the Personal Ensign (and what a story that would be...the undefeated Zenyatta taking on the HOY in a race named after another undefeated legend)....

I'm surprised Hollywood folks like the Mosses aren't jumping at this type of Hollywood ending...The Zenyatta-Rachel matchup has lost its luster...the perfect Hollywood ending is Zenyatta beating "the boys", in the Classic.

I don't understand you PA.

First you agree with CJ, when he states that Zenyatta has obviously lost a step, or two (or three) this year...and then you demand a tough campaign for her, before the Classic.

If YOU were her trainer...and you could see that she is not the same horse as she was last year...would you put her thru a tougher campaign this year, than last...especially considering that last year's plans worked to perfection?

If the horse has declined due to age...and she might well have...what is the prudent road to take here?

[letswastemoney]

Since I agree with PA, I'm drooling at all the money Zenyatta will eat up in the Classic if she goes into it undefeated.

If she goes in there undefeated, she must be the favorite because of all the casual bettors that hear about her "undefeated" record and want to play a sure thing.

I say Zenyatta, if she's in the Classic, goes off in the 2/1 range. Heck even if she does win, she will have been underlaid to the moon for a horse that's never faced males this year.

I could just box all the horses I like in an exacta box, and they will all be in the 5/1-20/1 range!

[PaceAdvantage]

The Zenyatta-Rachel matchup has lost its luster...the perfect Hollywood ending is Zenyatta beating "the boys", in the Classic.

I don't understand you PA.

First you agree with CJ, when he states that Zenyatta has obviously lost a step, or two (or three) this year...and then you demand a tough campaign for her, before the Classic.

If YOU were her trainer...and you could see that she is not the same horse as she was last year...would you put her thru a tougher campagn this year, than last...especially considering that last year's plans worked to perfection?

If the horse has declined due to age...what is the prudent road to take here?Are you joking again? The Zenyatta-Rachel matchup is as big as ever...just look at the posts on this board...it would be the biggest race of the year thus far...bar none.

If a crowd can work itself up for Zenyatta vs. five nobodys, imagine what they can do for Zenyatta vs. the female Horse of the Year?

And I did not agree with CJ when he stated Zenyatta has obviously lost a step or two this year. I never wrote that...show me where I agreed with him.

I think Zenyatta is as slow as she always has been.

And I don't buy for one second that her age is any factor right now. She is so very lightly raced that there is no way you can cite age as a risk for her slowing down. Her real racing age is probably closer to 4 if anything.

[thaskalos]

Are you joking again? The Zenyatta-Rachel matchup is as big as ever...just look at the posts on this board...it would be the biggest race of the year thus far...bar none.

I politely disagree. The vast majority of the members on this board have already concluded, that ZENYATTA wins the match-up between the two horses.

Different polls have already indicated this.

The only reason the match up appears in doubt...is because the Rachel fans here are more vocal...and they fill up the board with the same arguments, repeated post after post.

If you take out Carlor...the rest of us Zenyatta fans are rather subdued...

[PaceAdvantage]

So essentially, what you're saying is, people would rather see Zenyatta face off against a field like last Saturday, instead of facing off against a horse like Rachel Alexandra, the back-in-form, reigning Horse of the Year?

Duly noted...

[thaskalos]

So essentially, what you're saying is, people would rather see Zenyatta face off against a field like last Saturday, instead of facing off against a horse like Rachel Alexandra, the back-in-form, reigning Horse of the Year?

Duly noted...I never said that. Of course The Zenyatta-Rachel match-up would generate more interest than any other race we have seen this year.

I just think that there is less uncertainty in the outcome than there was last year.

[PaceAdvantage]

Of course The Zenyatta-Rachel match-up would generate more interest than any other race we have seen this year.How do you go from saying the potential matchup has lost its luster, to saying it would generate more interest than any other race we have seen this year?

I hate silly arguments like this...if you want to debate, then debate. Instead, it seems as though you just like to hear yourself type... :lol:

[PaceAdvantage]

thaskalos...not sure why you deleted that last reply...I would have liked to have responded to it...oh well...

[Tom]

So essentially, what you're saying is, people would rather see Zenyatta face off against a field like last Saturday, instead of facing off against a horse like Rachel Alexandra, the back-in-form, reigning Horse of the Year?

Duly noted...

OK, I'm low on meds this week,but I think a large group would rather see her show up and win than face a better group and lose. A lot of people have nowhere near the interest in acing most of us do here. They wanted to show up Sunday and have a fun day at the beach track and watch a "super horse" win another one. Many will be back next time she runs. Many will see her on TV and remember her from the BC - my sister and brother in law for instance, not horse racing fans, but the made apoint to get home early to wath the race when I told them Zenny was running. Now the topic at dinner that night was about maybe they should make a trip to Finger Lakes with me before the summer is over.

Just saying, yes I too would love to see her face tougher but with just this one, I am happy to just enjoy the party.This game has few good things left in it and all the talk is gloom and doom it seems, so I will just sit back with this one and wait for the one big dance at the BC, if she makes it. If not, I had few fun evenings this year that I would not have had. And so did a lot of other people.

Best ever, probably not, no matter what she does in the BC. But, one of the most memorable? Without a doubt.

[andymays]

Hold your horses on Zenyatta as best ever

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2010/aug/11/hold-your-horses-on-zenyatta-as-best-ever/

[Tom]

Oh, well now it is official.
Bet he hates poly, too. :bang:

[FenceBored]

You mean she doesn't glide over AWS with ease?

Sounds like something I've heard somewhere before:

She runs on plastic with the greatest of ease
the daring young mare on the cable jellies

Naw, that can't be right. What was I thinking.

[KingChas]

The greatest older mare (6+) we will ever see in our lifetime.
(No surface BS on this please)



I reread this whole thread,I am the only one saying greatest.
But I guess the older mare 6+ is written in invisible ink.
Were do you see in that statement greatest horse ever?
Now we got guys going back to the early 70's and the grand old my horse woulda kicked her butt statements.

Andy,most of your post's start with "they said shes the...."
Who is they(Connections & Cal fans I presume),it wasn't put here by our posters.

Pace,hilarious a six year old horse that you feel is only 4yrs old.... :lol:
I can't wait till I turn 21...........too........... :lol:

[andymays]

I reread this whole thread,I am the only one saying greatest.
But I guess the older mare 6+ is written in invisible ink.
Were do you see in that statement greatest horse ever?
Now we got guys going back to the early 70's and the grand old my horse woulda kicked her butt statements.

Andy,most of your post's start with "they said shes the...."
Who is they(Connections & Cal fans I presume) ,it wasn't put here by our posters.

Pace,hilarious a six year old horse that you feel is only 4yrs old.... :lol:
I can't wait till I turn 21...........too........... :lol:

Yes, the connections.

[KingChas]

Yes, the connections.

Well what do you expect them to say.
If I owned her I be shooting off the hip also.
Business men selling their product............ ;)

[andymays]

Well what do you expect them to say.
If I owned her I be shooting off the hip also.
Business men selling their product............ ;)

They brought her out of retirement to do something quite different than what they've done so far.

If they're going to constantly say she's the best or the best ever and then run in races restricted to females, then I'd say there has never been a super star with such a dissapointing schedule this year.

[andymays]

I reread this whole thread,I am the only one saying greatest.
But I guess the older mare 6+ is written in invisible ink.
Were do you see in that statement greatest horse ever?
Now we got guys going back to the early 70's and the grand old my horse woulda kicked her butt statements.

Andy,most of your post's start with "they said shes the...."
Who is they(Connections & Cal fans I presume),it wasn't put here by our posters.

Pace,hilarious a six year old horse that you feel is only 4yrs old.... :lol:
I can't wait till I turn 21...........too........... :lol:

http://www.insidesocal.com/horseracing/

Excerpt:

"If things continue as they are, if we can pull two more off, as far as I'm concerned she'll go down as the greatest horse of all time," said Smith, her jockey for the past 15 races who was aboard for the neck victory in the Hirsch over the game 10-1 outsider Rinterval, who set a pace so slow that the race was in danger of running over into Saturday Night Live.

Excerpt:

Not that Shirreffs needs any convincing. "She's the best horse in the country," he said.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pz2kvJf22gs&feature=player_embedded

[FenceBored]

Hold your horses on Zenyatta as best ever

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2010/aug/11/hold-your-horses-on-zenyatta-as-best-ever/

Did he just call Zenyatta racing's Lady Gaga? :eek:

[andymays]

Did he just call Zenyatta racing's Lady Gaga? :eek:

I know Nick, he's from the neighborhood out here (Little Italy). He doesn't normally write about Horse Racing. I don't agree with much of what he writes but I new the headline would tweak a few people around here.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2010/aug/11/hold-your-horses-on-zenyatta-as-best-ever/

excerpt:

Better than Buckpasser? Dr. Fager? Damascus? Seattle Slew? Affirmed? Spectacular Bid? Forego? Kelso? Native Dancer? Northern Dancer? Sunday Silence? Easy Goer? John Henry? Best Pal? Mongo? Cigar? Ghostzapper? Better than foreign horses such as Nijinsky and Ribot, the unbeaten Italian (have to love unbeaten Italians)?

I’m telling you, no she isn’t. Greats such as Forego, Kelso and John Henry won major events carrying more than 130 pounds. Horses don’t lug that weight around anymore (although Zenyatta twice carried 129).

Look, it isn’t as bad as someone telling me Lady Gaga is a better singer than Ella Fitzgerald, but there comes a time when we have to step away from the moment and clear our heads. If Zenyatta had a steady diet of any of the aforementioned, she would have gotten smoked

[FenceBored]

I know Nick, he's from the neighborhood out here (Little Italy). He doesn't normally write about Horse Racing. I don't agree with much of what he writes but I new the headline would tweak a few people around here.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2010/aug/11/hold-your-horses-on-zenyatta-as-best-ever/

excerpt:

Better than Buckpasser? Dr. Fager? Damascus? Seattle Slew? Affirmed? Spectacular Bid? Forego? Kelso? Native Dancer? Northern Dancer? Sunday Silence? Easy Goer? John Henry? Best Pal? Mongo? Cigar? Ghostzapper? Better than foreign horses such as Nijinsky and Ribot, the unbeaten Italian (have to love unbeaten Italians)?

I’m telling you, no she isn’t. Greats such as Forego, Kelso and John Henry won major events carrying more than 130 pounds. Horses don’t lug that weight around anymore (although Zenyatta twice carried 129).

Look, it isn’t as bad as someone telling me Lady Gaga is a better singer than Ella Fitzgerald, but there comes a time when we have to step away from the moment and clear our heads. If Zenyatta had a steady diet of any of the aforementioned, she would have gotten smoked

I know, I's just funnin'. He's saying she ain't as bad as Lady Gaga. :lol:

P..p..p..plastic track, p..p..plastic track

[KingChas]

excerpt:

Better than Buckpasser? Dr. Fager? Damascus? Seattle Slew? Affirmed? Spectacular Bid? Forego? Kelso? Native Dancer? Northern Dancer? Sunday Silence? Easy Goer? John Henry? Best Pal? Mongo? Cigar? Ghostzapper? Better than foreign horses such as Nijinsky and Ribot, the unbeaten Italian (have to love unbeaten Italians)?

I’m telling you, no she isn’t. Greats such as Forego, Kelso and John Henry won major events carrying more than 130 pounds. Horses don’t lug that weight around anymore (although Zenyatta twice carried 129).

Look, it isn’t as bad as someone telling me Lady Gaga is a better singer than Ella Fitzgerald, but there comes a time when we have to step away from the moment and clear our heads. If Zenyatta had a steady diet of any of the aforementioned, she would have gotten smoked

If Zenyatta had a steady diet of any of the aforementioned, she would have gotten smoked.


As would have the rest of this years and current years crops of horses......Blah......Blah.......Blah.
May I request an old Jethro Tull song for Nicky...."Living in the past". :D

Is writing for a newspaper,mag, etc... after a bottle of wine,the same as posting here after six beers. :D

[andymays]

If Zenyatta had a steady diet of any of the aforementioned, she would have gotten smoked.


As would have the rest of this years and current years crops of horses......Blah......Blah.......Blah.
May I request an old Jethro Tull song for Nicky...."Living in the past". :D


In case nobody's noticed the press converage on Z is becoming more and more critical as the year progresses. :eek:

If you listen closely you will hear the sound of HOY votes going down the toilet. :eek:

Unfortunately They are campaigning for runner up HOY once again. :eek:

[classhandicapper]

I think a lot of people wish that Zenyatta had faced a few more high level horses this year. It's sort of a shame that no one of significance showed up at the Apple Blossom because that's typically one of the strongest races for mares every year.

However, I don't think anyone should expect any horse to ship around looking for competition when there are important races with big purses at home.

I can't think of a single horse in the last 35 years that was based in NY that took any heat for not leaving NY to run against high quality horses in CA or anywhere else when the crop at home was weak. There are a number of NY based trainers that almost never ship out UNLESS the horse is doing poorly at home.

I've been saying all long that there is a double standard on this issue because of east coast bias.

It has long been the CA trainers that occasionally accepted the challenge by coming east for a single important race.

The thing is, that race is now the Breeder's Cup.

Until people understand that the importance the industry has placed on the Breeder's Cup has diminished the importance of everything else and that trainers are mapping out campaigns with the BC in mind, they are going to misunderstand the motivations of various handlers.

[KingChas]

In case nobody's noticed the press converage on Z is becoming more and more critical as the year progresses. :eek:



Andy that's an understatement.

This horse just is a pleasure to watch.
Hell she shoulda made the HOF with just her pre & post race antics.
Not even counting her race record. :cool:
Quite the showgirl. ;)

[KingChas]

If you listen closely you will hear the sound of HOY votes going down the toilet. :eek:

Unfortunately They are campaigning for runner up HOY once again. :eek:


Unless I get a kickback of $1m HOY means absolutely nothing to me.
A few of us here just enjoy watching Z run.

Ask me ten years from now who the horse of the year was in 2010.
And I will probably have to goggle it.
Except for the insiders and the industry.
It's like the Acadamy Awards....who cares. :confused:

[thaskalos]

thaskalos...not sure why you deleted that last reply...I would have liked to have responded to it...oh well...You took too long...and I wanted to get some sleep.

[PaceAdvantage]

Pace,hilarious a six year old horse that you feel is only 4yrs old.... :lol:
I can't wait till I turn 21...........too........... :lol:You've never heard of "real age vs. physical age?"

Rachel Alexandra has run about the same number of times as Zenyatta...she's only 4. That's one example...

It's not necessarily age. We have 9yos winning races at Saratoga, do we not?

Zenyatta's real age has little to do with it, unless there are some sort of physical problems that the public is not aware of....

[Pick6]

Ack Ack won at 5 1/2 furlongs, won the Autumd Days at 6 1/2F on turf and both the Big Cap and Hol Gold Cup at 10F. Swaps world records were 8F and 8 1/2F both at Hollywood Park.
Swaps set track/world records across the country from 1 mile to 1 5/8 miles.

Ack Ack never ran over 1 1-4.

[Pick6]

You've never heard of "real age vs. physical age?"

Rachel Alexandra has run about the same number of times as Zenyatta...she's only 4. That's one example...

It's not necessarily age. We have 9yos winning races at Saratoga, do we not?

Zenyatta's real age has little to do with it, unless there are some sort of physical problems that the public is not aware of....
So maybe we can change the triple crown races to allow 4 year olds if they haven't raced yet?

Simply hilarious.

[PaceAdvantage]

So maybe we can change the triple crown races to allow 4 year olds if they haven't raced yet?

Simply hilarious.Right, so a horse like Zenyatta who is 6yo and raced sparingly has the same wear and tear on her as another 6yo who has been raced two to three times as much.

The concept is sound and quite simple to understand. Nothing hilarious about it.

[Pick6]

The Zenyatta-Rachel matchup has lost its luster...the perfect Hollywood ending is Zenyatta beating "the boys", in the Classic.

I don't understand you PA.

First you agree with CJ, when he states that Zenyatta has obviously lost a step, or two (or three) this year...and then you demand a tough campaign for her, before the Classic.

If YOU were her trainer...and you could see that she is not the same horse as she was last year...would you put her thru a tougher campaign this year, than last...especially considering that last year's plans worked to perfection?

If the horse has declined due to age...and she might well have...what is the prudent road to take here?
Of course not. Just because your horse is not 100% does not imply you avoid the competition. Again, look at the Hollywood aspect of it, beating the best is obviously worth the risk, right?

Or am I talking about Rachel Alexandra? I'm confused.

[Pick6]

Right, so a horse like Zenyatta who is 6yo and raced sparingly has the same wear and tear on her as another 6yo who has been raced two to three times as much.

The concept is sound and quite simple to understand. Nothing hilarious about it.
Quite hilarious, actually.

A healthy horse can run multiple races over many years. Proven time and time again. 5- and 6-year-olds in healthy condition can compete at the highest level.

It is the result of INJURY that prevents a horse from performing at the same level. Of course more races mean higher risk of injury, just as keeping a horse in training longer means higher risk of injury, as well as other training techniques potentially add risk of injury.

And the fact you are ignoring time in training does not add anything to your position.

[Pick6]

Why do her connections believe she won't handle an off track? She has never raced over one, and I am going to assume since she is based in Cali, she has never trained over one either...
Which perfectly explains why Jackson did not race RA in the 2009 BCC, on Pro Ride.

[Relwob Owner]

Which perfectly explains why Jackson did not race RA in the 2009 BCC, on Pro Ride.


From where you sit, what are the reasons Jackson didnt run her in the 2009 BC on Pro Ride? They seem to be much more complicated than you suggest.....plus, an off track and synthetic are two totall different things IMO

[PaceAdvantage]

Quite hilarious, actually.

A healthy horse can run multiple races over many years. Proven time and time again. 5- and 6-year-olds in healthy condition can compete at the highest level.

It is the result of INJURY that prevents a horse from performing at the same level. Of course more races mean higher risk of injury, just as keeping a horse in training longer means higher risk of injury, as well as other training techniques potentially add risk of injury.

And the fact you are ignoring time in training does not add anything to your position.I am addressing those who claim that age is going to quickly catch up to Zenyatta, if it hasn't already, which I find to be complete nonsense. Why is it you have such a hard time grasping the concepts presented here? It's like you are reading and replying to a completely different post than the one I wrote.

[Pick6]

I am addressing those who claim that age is going to quickly catch up to Zenyatta, if it hasn't already, which I find to be complete nonsense. Why is it you have such a hard time grasping the concepts presented here? It's like you are reading and replying to a completely different post than the one I wrote.
Zenyatta is 6. She is 6 regardless of the amount of races she has run. She could have raced 1,000 times, and if she were still healthy she could run just as well as if she ran once. Countless 6 year olds in racing history have run very well, regardless of the number of races they had previously run.

This is the point you are missing. Your entire "light racing" argument means nothing and is hilarious. Why you bring it up is beyond me.

[Pick6]

From where you sit, what are the reasons Jackson didnt run her in the 2009 BC on Pro Ride? They seem to be much more complicated than you suggest.....plus, an off track and synthetic are two totall different things IMO
I don't believe RA ever ran Pro Ride, correct?

If Jackson did not want to risk it, that is his prerogative. If Moss does not want to run Z on a sloppy/sealed track, that is his prerogative. Their reasons may or may not make sense to you. They own their respective horses and it is up to them to decide if the risk of injury is worth it. For many owners/trainers the risk IS worth it, so they run on those surfaces.

[Relwob Owner]

Zenyatta is 6. She is 6 regardless of the amount of races she has run. She could have raced 1,000 times, and if she were still healthy she could run just as well as if she ran once. Countless 6 year olds in racing history have run very well, regardless of the number of races they had previously run.

This is the point you are missing. Your entire "light racing" argument means nothing and is hilarious. Why you bring it up is beyond me.


His light racing argument makes pretty good sense...she ducks and doesnt run much so her tank is full for her races more than a horse who has run more and has more wear and tear....what dont you get about this?

Still waiting to hear why you think RA didnt run in the 2009 BC and your explanation for your comparison to not running on an off track and not running on rubber, uh, I mean pro ride.....

[thaskalos]

I love the horse, but I think CJ is right about her losing a step or two this year.

And what is worse, IMO...is that her performances seem to get less impressive, as the year goes on.

I hope that I'm wrong...

[Relwob Owner]

I don't believe RA ever ran Pro Ride, correct?

If Jackson did not want to risk it, that is his prerogative. If Moss does not want to run Z on a sloppy/sealed track, that is his prerogative. Their reasons may or may not make sense to you. They own their respective horses and it is up to them to decide if the risk of injury is worth it. For many owners/trainers the risk IS worth it, so they run on those surfaces.


Again, why dont you think RA ran on Pro Ride? You compared it to a decision not to run on an off track so I was interested to hear why you think Jackson didnt run in the 2009 Classic....

[Pick6]

It makes little sense, which I already indicated.

And I already explained the sloppy/sealed v. Pro Ride issue.

Care to offer your explanation for Jackson ducking the biggest race of the year? If you say "campaign over in the Summer" then you don't need to respond.

[Relwob Owner]

It makes little sense, which I already indicated.

And I already explained the sloppy/sealed v. Pro Ride issue.

Care to offer your explanation for Jackson ducking the biggest race of the year? If you say "campaign over in the Summer" then you don't need to respond.


You didnt explain the sloppy/sealed issue as compared with the pro ride....pro ride is a much more comlicated dissue than an off track....

As far as Jackson "ducking", he hates Pro Ride(justifiably so)....that was a reason and the fact that you never even brought it up surprised me....either you ignored it, which is possible or yolu were unaware, which is hard for me to fathom considering any real racing fan knows....

[PaceAdvantage]

It makes little sense, which I already indicated.What makes little sense is those who state that she is in some sort of danger zone because of her age. I think you and I are actually agreeing with each other here, yet for some reason, you don't realize it.

[thaskalos]

Again, why dont you think RA ran on Pro Ride? You compared it to a decision not to run on an off track so I was interested to hear why you think Jackson didnt run in the 2009 Classic....Supposedly he developed a dislike for the surface, as a result of Curlin's exploits on it.

What I think happend, was that he figured out Rachel would win the HOY - due to her outstanding 3 year old campaign - and he didn't want to run the risk of losing to Zenyatta, on her favorite surface.

Of course, people refused to believe this...because, after all, Jess Jackson is such a "sportsman".

Well...we saw what kind of sportsman he is, with Rachel's race at Monmouth this year...

[Relwob Owner]

Supposedly he developed a dislike for the surface, as a result of Curlin's exploits on it.

What I think happend, was that he figured out Rachel would win the HOY - due to her outstanding 3 year old campaign - and he didn't want to run the risk of losing to Zenyatta, on her favorite surface.

Of course, people refused to believe this...because, after all, Jess Jackson is such a "sportsman".

Well...we saw what kind of sportsman he is, with Rachel's race at Monmouth this year...


You hit the nail on the head....there isnt a "supposedly" because he has said so on many occasions, I believe. I guess Pick 6 didnt have that info and so it made his Pro Ride/Off Track argument really weak IMO because Jackson's pro ride disdain was at the very least, a small factor in RA not goin g in the BC....

You are taking a cut at Jackson being a sportsman and I can see reasons to... He is up for debate in general as far as whether he has ducked but he did step up, buy her and immediately run her against the boys....

[PaceAdvantage]

And by declaring his intentions to run in the Personal Ensign with plenty of notice (and a 10f race no less - something Rachel critics have stated she would never even attempt), he is showing once again that he is ever the sportsman, for he surely must have thought there was more than a slight chance Zenyatta's connections would have jumped at the chance to meet the current Horse of the Year at that much heralded classic distance.

But I must assume all those who declare 10f to be Zenyatta's best and Rachel's worst distance aren't as plugged in as I might have previously thought.

[thaskalos]

You hit the nail on the head....there isnt a "supposedly" because he has said so on many occasions, I believe. I guess Pick 6 didnt have that info and so it made his Pro Ride/Off Track argument really weak IMO because Jackson's pro ride disdain was at the very least, a small factor in RA not goin g in the BC....

You are taking a cut at Jackson being a sportsman and I can see reasons to... He is up for debate in general as far as whether he has ducked but he did step up, buy her and immediately run her against the boys....Now I have a question for you...

I have noticed that you have grown fond of using the word "ducking", whenever you mention that Zenyatta's connections chose not to run, in the Personal Ensign Stakes...eventhough they never indicated that they were interested in that race at all.

Has it ever occurred to you that Rachel's connections have repeatedly "ducked" Zenyatta...with multi-million dollar purses on the line?

Why don't you use the word "ducking", in a more bi-partisan sort of way?

[Relwob Owner]

Now I have a question for you...

I have noticed that you have grown fond of using the word "ducking", whenever you mention that Zenyatta's connections chose not to run, in the Personal Ensign Stakes...eventhough they never indicated that they were interested in that race at all.

Has it ever occurred to you that Rachel's connections have repeatedly "ducked" Zenyatta...with multi-million dollar purses on the line?

Why don't you use the word "ducking", in a more bi-partisan sort of way?


I think I have used "ducking" a bunch in general to describe Zenyatta and I firmly believe in it....her streak consists of 94.7 percent restricted races...I am not saying she should always face boys but more than once would be nice and would do more to back up the hyperbolic support of her fans....

As far as the Personal Ensign goes, she is definitely ducking RA IMO...it is a dirt prep, it is a restriced race, which she obviously loves and is on the dirt, which would prep her perfectly for the BC...also, with all the grand "she is good for racing" bravado her fans engage in, it would be great for racing for her and RA to face off at teh Spa, wouldnt it?


You ask about Rachel ducking...that is an interesting misconception I think because every person who criticizes Zenyatta isnt someone who thinks RA can do no wrong either. If you are speaking about the BC last year, RA not running made perfect sense-a 3YO filly who beat the 3YO girls, the 3YO boys and then the older boys in the Woodward. Plus, throw in the fact that the BC was on Pro Ride, which her owner justifiably hates......so, I dont see that as ducking but that is just my opinion...

The Apple Blossom may have been a bit different. I didnt care for saying "yes" and then "no"...you say "repeatedly-do you mean the BC and Apple Blossom, I assume?..... I do like that RA's connections seem smuch more honest about her progress and how long it took her to recover from last year and get on tarck this year...Zenyatta's connections keep running her aginst softies(a 94 Beyer-really?) on her preferred surface and act like she is Secretariat...why not the Hollywood Gold Cup? The Pacific Classic? any race against boys?

They say their goal is the BC but unfortunately, it is tough to run restricted all year long, win that race and win HOY, whether it be her OR Rachel....however, with the lack of other horses doing too much, it could happen.....

[classhandicapper]

And by declaring his intentions to run in the Personal Ensign with plenty of notice (and a 10f race no less - something Rachel critics have stated she would never even attempt), he is showing once again that he is ever the sportsman, for he surely must have thought there was more than a slight chance Zenyatta's connections would have jumped at the chance to meet the current Horse of the Year at that much heralded classic distance.

But I must assume all those who declare 10f to be Zenyatta's best and Rachel's worst distance aren't as plugged in as I might have previously thought.

I think it has been pretty clear from the beginning of this year's campaign that Rachel's connections have one and only one goal in mind - The Breeder's Cup Classic (same with the Zenyatta camp).

They are looking for easier spots than last year, spacing her races to keep her fresh, and have also seemingly changed the way they are training her. She's showing less speed, but finishing strongly.

I assume her connections saw that in both the Preakness and Woodward when she came under high quality pressure from a colt with similar speed, she didn't finish nearly as well and would have been very vulnerable to any legitimate Grade 1 older colt (especially at 10F). So they want to make sure she relaxes and doesn't get drawn into a fast pace prematurely. That will give her the only chance she has of staying the extra distance against the best male horses in the country.

The Personal Ensign is the test case for that plan.

Assuming a solid pace, in that race we should find out if she's now capable of relaxing off fast horses, not gettting involved until the appropriate time, and then finishing strongly at 10F.

If she looks good they will go in the Classic.

If she doesn't look good they will probably go in the Ladies or call it a day.

[classhandicapper]

I love the horse, but I think CJ is right about her losing a step or two this year.

And what is worse, IMO...is that her performances seem to get less impressive, as the year goes on.

I hope that I'm wrong...

IMO, it's virtually impossible to tell for sure right now, but it's certainly possible.

Last year all her critics said the same thing. They said she was losing a step when she put up back to back Beyer figures in the mid 90s without approaching her prior year top of 108, but then she popped a 112 in the Classic with a burst of late speed rarely seen.

It couldn't be more obvious that as a deep closer this mare's speed figures fluctuate with the pace scenario of the race and the extent to which she is used late.

Smith uses her to get her into a reasonable "position" to win turning for home "without any regard for pace" and then asks her to run through the stretch (asking more or less depending on situation). Tactically, IMO he sometimes errs, but so far she keeps overcoming him. :lol:

The record shows that the more he has to "use" her with that wide sweeping move because the pace picked up after an extremely slow beginning, the less she has left at the end and the harder it is for her to put up a fast final time or large winning margin. There are limits to her reserves and closing ability and the horses that were near the lead are usually also finishing extremely well because they are so fresh.

This is the nature of turf and synthetic racing and also the nature of deep closers. They can be at a huge disadvantage when the pace is very slow just like front runners are when they duel. The thing is, a lot of turf and synthetic races have very slow paces so a deep closer running fast times is problematical.

Here is something written about her by James Quinn before last year's BC Classic. At the time I thought it was the best analysis I had seen of her to date and I still think that.

"With the disappointing abstention of Sea the Stars, presumably owners Jerry and Ann Moss and trainer John Shirreffs will want to challenge their super mare Zenyatta to beat the best the boys can offer.

Allusions to Zenyatta's supposedly below-par speed figures have been misguided. Again, the slow fractional times common to synthetic surfaces have been largely to blame, and Zenyatta has found herself in arrears of unusually slow fractions on several occasions.

Like the best of the deep closers, Zenyatta delivers two moves. She gains striking position by rallying wide around the field on the far turn and then surges anew through the stretch with long masterful strides.

She demonstrated both moves again in the Grade 1 Lady's Secret Stakes on Oct. 10, rallying easily to the front and geared down well before the wire. The final fraction at 1 1/16 miles was 29.10 seconds, and not many can match that.

Two back at Del Mar, when jockey Mike Smith lost touch with a milk-wagon pace and almost got her beat for the first time, Zenyatta closed through the short stretch with a rush in 22 and change.

And Zenyatta's speed figures have eclipsed par, if slightly, when the pace has allowed as reflected by the 104 Beyer three back in the record.

If she must in the BC Classic, Zenyatta can be expected to run faster than ever, and she likes the Pro-Ride surface quite a lot. If Rip Van Winkle comes as expected, I do not expect Zenyatta to outrun the classy Ballydoyle 3-year-old colt and take down the Classic, but I will not be surprised to see her in the circle".

[PaceAdvantage]

You and others keep blaming the surface, the pace, her style, all these items are to blame for her NEVER running a SUPERSTAR-STYLE final time. This despite her having raced twice on dirt, a surface which is supposed to (if I get all the theory correct) produce faster speed figures than synthetics.

Quality Road gets things all his own way and ran what kind of number at Gulfstream? A 121. We haven't seen that kind of number from a top quality horse in quite some time. You mean to tell me Zenyatta has never had things her own way in any of the 18 races she has been a part of?

Zenyatta's best Beyer is a 112. Hardly the stuff of legends. Has she never had a fast pace to run at? Has she never raced on dirt? Has she never been relatively close to the early pace? The answer to all three of these questions is a resounding NO! She has had the benefit of all three of those scenarios, scenarios which according to you, are supposed to produce a faster time for a championship caliber-type horse.

The excuses offered as to why a horse regarded so highly by some has failed to produce even one remarkably fast running time are starting to wear a little thin when the record is examined a little more closely.

Again, nobody is saying she isn't a wonderful mare, one of the best we've seen in years. But there is still plenty of room for debate when it comes to the title of "best ANYTHING of all time", and despite what some say, time does actually mean something in racing.

[BluegrassProf]

Well...we saw what kind of sportsman he is, with Rachel's race at Monmouth this year...As opposed to the sportsmanship breaking a single, simple promise of a substantive year-long campaign? Of insisting that good enough is good enough? Good call. :ThmbUp:

*badoom-crash*

Jeez, man....terrible, even for this thread. :bang:

[Pick6]

If Jackson believed that there were indeed no risk in RA performing at or near her best on Pro Ride, and forgetting for a second about ducking the competition, she would have been there for the 2009 BCC.

Just as Moss feels that if there is no risk of Zenyatta performing at or near her best on a sloppy/sealed track, and forgetting for a second about ducking the competition, she will run on that surface (if it plays out that way) for the 2010 BCC. It does not really matter differences between the two surfaces. It is up to the owners/trainers to decide. Z scratched 2 years ago on a sloppy/sealed track at CD, so I would expect her to scratch again if it comes up that way for the BCC. Neither should anyone else should be surprised. Horses scratch from sloppy tracks all the time.

[Pick6]

You hit the nail on the head....there isnt a "supposedly" because he has said so on many occasions, I believe. I guess Pick 6 didnt have that info and so it made his Pro Ride/Off Track argument really weak IMO because Jackson's pro ride disdain was at the very least, a small factor in RA not goin g in the BC....

You are taking a cut at Jackson being a sportsman and I can see reasons to... He is up for debate in general as far as whether he has ducked but he did step up, buy her and immediately run her against the boys....
Jackson has made just about everyone aware his dislike of ProRide. I don't know of anybody of note who likes the stuff.

I guess that explains why Curlin ran in 2008 BCC.

[PaceAdvantage]

Jackson has made just about everyone aware his dislike of ProRide. I don't know of anybody of note who likes the stuff.

I guess that explains why Curlin ran in 2008 BCC.Asked and answered many times over.

[Pick6]

What makes little sense is those who state that she is in some sort of danger zone because of her age. I think you and I are actually agreeing with each other here, yet for some reason, you don't realize it.
I use logic, and I don't use false assertions to make a point.

I don't depend on a coinflip to get the answer right.

[Pick6]

Asked and answered many times over.
Ok. Handlers hate ProRide so Curlin runs in 2008 BCC. Got it.

[thaskalos]

As opposed to the sportsmanship breaking a single, simple promise of a substantive year-long campaign? Of insisting that good enough is good enough? Good call. :ThmbUp:

*badoom-crash*

Jeez, man....terrible, even for this thread. :bang:Your criticism is misguided, in this case, professor.

Zenyatta's connections were never touted as being...overly ambitious.

Jess Jackson - on the other hand - was called "the ultimate sportsman".

[tucker6]

Your criticism is misguided, in this case, professor.

Zenyatta's connections were never touted as being...overly ambitious.

Jess Jackson - on the other hand - was called "the ultimate sportsman".
Jess Jackson announced RA's participation in the PE Stakes a full month before the race to give Moss plenty of time to get Zenyatta there. The race falls in line with training for the BCC, is on dirt, and is at 10F. All BCC requirements. Was that sporting or not?? Was that ducking or not?? You be the judge.

[tzipi]

Jess Jackson announced RA's participation in the PE Stakes a full month before the race to give Moss plenty of time to get Zenyatta there. The race falls in line with training for the BCC, is on dirt, and is at 10F. All BCC requirements. Was that sporting or not?? Was that ducking or not?? You be the judge.

It's also 1 1/4 race,Zens best distance. The distance many Zen fans said RA connections would never enter anywhere because Zen would show up and crush her at it. I really thought they pass up the Clement with all the allowance horses to run in the top meet P. Ensign against RA at 1 1/4. It kind of stinks they didn't enter Zen so they could run in the Clement.

[Relwob Owner]

Ok. Handlers hate ProRide so Curlin runs in 2008 BCC. Got it.


Have you ever heard of the phrase once bitten, twice shy? Curlin would be the once bitten, RA would be the twice shy....your apparent ignorance of the situation is forcing you to make a point that makes no sense.

He was chafed because from his view, he did the sporting thing, ran Curlin on a surface that was relatively unproven and he might not like and he got beat and people then questioned Curlin's overall status.....

[thaskalos]

Jess Jackson announced RA's participation in the PE Stakes a full month before the race to give Moss plenty of time to get Zenyatta there. The race falls in line with training for the BCC, is on dirt, and is at 10F. All BCC requirements. Was that sporting or not?? Was that ducking or not?? You be the judge. I have been saying the same thing post after post.

BOTH camps have chosen the lamest 2010 campaigns possible, for their horses...and they should both be blamed or forgiven, equally.

It's a shame that both have decided not to face each other upto now...but IMO, they both deserve the benefit of the doubt, since they obviously know their respective horses much better than we do.

I don't blame Rachel's connections for the path they have taken with their horse this year. They should do whatever they feel is right with their horse.

But the same curtesy should be extended to Zenyatta's connections.

As far as who the better horse is...I am confident that time will tell.

We'll just have to let the Breeders Cup decide...

[Relwob Owner]

I have been saying the same thing post after post.

BOTH camps have chosen the lamest 2010 campaigns possible, for their horses...and they should both be blamed or forgiven, equally.

It's a shame that both have decided not to face each other upto now...but IMO, they both deserve the benefit of the doubt, since they obviously know their respective horses much better than we do.

I don't blame Rachel's connections for the path they have taken with their horse this year. They should do whatever they feel is right with their horse.

But the same curtesy should be extended to Zenyatta's connections.

As far as who the better horse is...I am confident that time will tell.


We'll just have to let the Breeders Cup decide...




I think you make a nice point about both of the camps having less than ambitious overall campaigns...Seems like with Rachel, her campaign has been more about last year taking a huge toll and getting some things worked out for her to be in good shape. Because RA's connections have been more forthright and referred to this and Zenyatta's really havent, maybe perception goes to anti Zenyatta thoughts?