Everyone loses except her...

[only11]

For 3 years we have seen the best horses in the country lose...except for Zenyatta...

[cpitt84]

And the Queen continues her dominance--18 for 18.

[Tom]

18-0.
This one I liked - got to see the times, but I like that she seemed to just run in response to the closer on her flank.

[tzipi]

For 3 years we have seen the best horses in the country lose...except for Zenyatta...

C'mon Only11. She better not lose. The best they had to offer was a horse who couldn't win a G3 race. Geez. I wish some other camp had Zen.
But to Zen who was asked to do her thing...Great race :ThmbUp:

[MNslappy]

She's the Harlem Globetrotters of horse racing....
If you know what I mean....

[DeanT]

As far as races go with a 1-9 shot, that was interesting. The jocks obviously planned to beat her with the splits.

There is something neat in seeing a horse go fractions like they went in the Hambletonian today, then come home like a seasoned thoroughbred.

[Citation1947]

Well I cheer for Zenyatta just as much as anyone, but I think(i'm a realist) if she traveled to other big tracks/races(belmont, saratoga, churchill, etc) like "everyone" else, she wouldn't be undefeated.

[jballscalls]

Zenyatta is awesome, always has been always will be!

plus she ran a 1/16th of a mile more than the horse she just beat today

[only11]

Shes the best horse in the country the last 2 years and shes the best now,,,
knucklheads had Railtrip ahead her...had RA ahead of her she has lost 2 already this year,QR was the best horse since DR.Fage...r today he set non winners of 2 fractions and lost and people think ist because Velasquez A WORLD CLASS RIDER looked underneath his shoulders
.Please stop til she loses shes the best bottom line..

[MNslappy]

Well I cheer for Zenyatta just as much as anyone, but I think(i'm a realist) if she traveled to other big tracks/races(belmont, saratoga, churchill, etc) like "everyone" else, she wouldn't be undefeated.

Well......we'll never know....and that's a damn cryin shame because what if she really is the greatest race horse of all time....we'll never know because she's didn't get the chance to prove it.

[andymays]

She moved early and was all out to win. I know they're saying she wasn't all out but Smith went to the whip several times in stetch.

Zenyatta was all out to win.

[PaceAdvantage]

til she loses shes the best bottom line..Flawed thinking like this is probably one of the reasons why Dahoss is kicking your ass in the contest...

[PaceAdvantage]

Zenyatta was all out to win.Given the fractions, I'm not surprised...

[WinterTriangle]

if she traveled to other big tracks/races(belmont, saratoga, churchill, etc) like "everyone" else, she wouldn't be undefeated.

I think some of you underestimate how hard it is to keep a horse in condition for so many seasons, and regardless of how weak or strong fields are, most horses GET BEAT because there are always horses who are the best that day, coming into any race.

If it was so easy, I'm sure there would be other trainers and owners who would have attempted to do 18-0 until their horse is almost 7 years old.

And they can't. Because they can't do it year after year, and up to that kind of age.

The whole point of this game is to win, plus all the while keeping your horse safe and well.

[only11]

And for those who think shes ducking competion are twisted...
People this aint about you...its about Zenyatta and having her at her peak roll around bc....
And for those whos say,,facing tomatoe cans aint the way to go....she did win the BC last year on a similar schedule....

[Vinnie]

I love Zenyatta as much as the next horse racing fan, but, c'mon.... I guess Del Mar is becoming tomato can central because no one out there on the track had any business out there with her. And, to listen to the Freak'in talking heads on TVG she only reached about 2nd gear in the win. They are so Freak'in out there when it comes to Zenyatta it is amazing. Early prediction, you will never see her come B.C. day on the dirt with the 18-0 on the line... Just don't see it happening. Once again, the way the folks on TVG were talking about her, she could have won running backwards.

She is always exciting to watch though. :) I do love the mare. She is awesome and I wish her well always.

[tucker6]

Shes the best horse in the country the last 2 years and shes the best now,,,
knucklheads had Railtrip ahead her...had RA ahead of her she has lost 2 already this year,QR was the best horse since DR.Fage...r today he set non winners of 2 fractions and lost and people think ist because Velasquez A WORLD CLASS RIDER looked underneath his shoulders
.Please stop til she loses shes the best bottom line..
Put the bottle down son. No one on this board ever said that. It's bad enough you're stinking up the joint in the contest with Dahoss, but please don't bring that same quality to this forum.

[Citation1947]

She moved early and was all out to win. I know they're saying she wasn't all out but Smith went to the whip several times in stetch.

Zenyatta was all out to win.


Yeah, her last two races have shown me she is very beatable against better. They should just keep her in Cali.

[Relwob Owner]

And for those who think shes ducking competion are twisted...
People this aint about you...its about Zenyatta and having her at her peak roll around bc....
And for those whos say,,facing tomatoe cans aint the way to go....she did win the BC last year on a similar schedule....


I think having her tuned up for the BC is fine but dont you think that having a creampuff schedule decreases her chances of being Horse of the Year, even if she wins that race?

I think that the biggest issue the Zenyatta "haters" have isnt with the horse, but with her fans who seem to be conveying the notion that it is OK to go easy against soft competition all year, gear up for one race and expect to win HOY, which I dont believe is deserving of the award.

[tucker6]

And for those who think shes ducking competion are twisted...
People this aint about you...its about Zenyatta and having her at her peak roll around bc....
And for those whos say,,facing tomatoe cans aint the way to go....she did win the BC last year on a similar schedule....
You mean she did win last year on a similar track. Right?? See, that's the difference this year. She won't be the only poly horse in a poly race. She'll be the only poly horse in a dirt race. See the slight difference.

[tzipi]

Yeah, her last two races have shown me she is very beatable against better. They should just keep her in Cali.

Maybe, I mean Rinterval has never won a graded race and has low beyers. I really thought Zenny would whip this field. As soon as she moved I thought wow, she might open up by 5 in deep stretch. She did win though. Can't take that away from her. Cheers to her :) . :ThmbDown: to her connections because I wish they would've done more with her talent over these last two years.

[PaceAdvantage]

I think some of you underestimate how hard it is to keep a horse in condition for so many seasons, and regardless of how weak or strong fields are, most horses GET BEAT because there are always horses who are the best that day, coming into any race.

If it was so easy, I'm sure there would be other trainers and owners who would have attempted to do 18-0 until their horse is almost 7 years old.

And they can't. Because they can't do it year after year, and up to that kind of age.

The whole point of this game is to win, plus all the while keeping your horse safe and well.Zenyatta is a top class racehorse...there is no debate there...Shirreffs is a top class trainer and Mike Smith still has his moments now and then...

Add that to surfaces which are highly conducive to her running style + terribly sub-standard fields for the majority of her races, and you have yourself the recipe for "undefeatedness."

[Vinnie]

Zenyatta is a top class racehorse...there is no debate there...Shirreffs is a top class trainer and Mike Smith still has his moments now and then...

Add that to surfaces which are highly conducive to her running style + terribly sub-standard fields for the majority of her races, and you have yourself the recipe for "undefeatedness."

Excellent post PA! Unfortunately, it is right on the money.. :)

[only11]

I think having her tuned up for the BC is fine but dont you think that having a creampuff schedule decreases her chances of being Horse of the Year, even if she wins that race?

I think that the biggest issue the Zenyatta "haters" have isnt with the horse, but with her fans who seem to be conveying the notion that it is OK to go easy against soft competition all year, gear up for one race and expect to win HOY, which I dont believe is deserving of the award.
Cream puff schedule soft..soft races...
She had to run her ass off to run down ST,Trinidad,and this race she had to run her ass off ..she might have gotten lazy once she hit the front..she did the same thing last year in the BC smith had to keep her focus..

[only11]

Zenyatta is a top class racehorse...there is no debate there...Shirreffs is a top class trainer and Mike Smith still has his moments now and then...

Add that to surfaces which are highly conducive to her running style + terribly sub-standard fields for the majority of her races, and you have yourself the recipe for "undefeatedness."
Its almost like saying..RA is a top class racehorse..Asmussen top trainer when not suspended,borel great rider as long as hes on th CD rail..and the fields shes faced ..the 5 horse fields where shes sits a harness pocket trip then runs by Quenn Martha down,,,jesus

[Tom]

Let's see, Z wins on surfaces conducive to her running style. Ok, but she wins. What about those who race on the front end, on dirt, which is conducive to their running style?

[tzipi]

Cream puff schedule soft..soft races...
She had to run her ass off to run down ST,Trinidad,and this race she had to run her ass off ..she might have gotten lazy once she hit the front..she did the same thing last year in the BC smith had to keep her focus..

"Running your ass off" to catch horses who are not G1 winners with just one G2 winner is not a good thing I think. She should've whipped Rinterval,a horse who couldn't win a G3 race. Maybe she's slipping....maybe not. Was honestly a bit shocked by this race more than others.

[only11]

"Running your ass off" to catch horses who are not G1 winners with just one G2 winner is not a good thing I think. She should've whipped Rinterval,a horse who couldn't win a G3 race. Maybe she's slipping....maybe not. Was honestly a bit shocked by this race more than others.
At the end of the day whats the bottom line..winning doesnt matter how.

[BluegrassProf]

Shes the best horse in the country the last 2 years and shes the best now,,,
knucklheads had Railtrip ahead her...had RA ahead of her she has lost 2 already this year,QR was the best horse since DR.Fage...r today he set non winners of 2 fractions and lost and people think ist because Velasquez A WORLD CLASS RIDER looked underneath his shoulders
.Please stop til she loses shes the best bottom line..
http://www.soundboard.com/memberphoto/401315995401335.jpg "You, sir, are a delight."


I've missed you, only11. Your posts are scrumtrelescent.

[only11]

http://www.soundboard.com/memberphoto/401315995401335.jpg "You, sir, are a delight."


I've missed you, only11. Your posts are scrumtrelescent.
Thank you...you must be a RA fan?

[horses721]

It's tough to lose when you spend your entire career running in your comfort zone against the same lousy competition. Oh, I'm sorry, she went to Oaklawn twice. :confused:

Please tell me all the great qualities of this Canadian bred superfilly that almost defeated the great Zenyatta. :lol:

[tucker6]

http://www.soundboard.com/memberphoto/401315995401335.jpg "You, sir, are a delight."


I've missed you, only11. Your posts are scrumtrelescent.
This post made me get up and lock the doors.

[v j stauffer]

What she did today is like a dome, west coast offense style, football team playing in the snow, wind and muck and still finding a way to win. She clearly is uncomfortable on that racetrack. You could see it when she was galloping/jogging back. Almost as if she was annoyed. Say what you will. NOTHING and I mean NOTHING can be said against 18 for 18. Period:)

[only11]

Was it Queen Martha or Zardana or the mighty Unbridled whats her name..?

[PaceAdvantage]

Was it Queen Martha or Zardana or the mighty Unbridled whats her name..?Give it a rest, will you? Today's Vanity has settled absolutely nothing. We all knew that going in...

[Relwob Owner]

Cream puff schedule soft..soft races...
She had to run her ass off to run down ST,Trinidad,and this race she had to run her ass off ..she might have gotten lazy once she hit the front..she did the same thing last year in the BC smith had to keep her focus..


Your post makes little sense....you are backing up your pro Zenyatta stance by pointing out as a positive that she had to run her ass off to beat the types of second tier horses she beat in her last two.....

[BluegrassProf]

Thank you...you must be a RA fan?Why, 'cause only11-critique = Zen career critique? Reallyreally?

And Zen career critique = hatin'? And hatin' = RA-luuuuvsmoochysmoochugs? Same as it ever was, my fabulous frantic friend?

Ah well, at least you're just so perfectly cliche and SUPER easy to shrug off. Suppose the collective has that goin' for it. :D

Carry on! More threads pleez! But not really. I'm serious.

[DeanT]

Let's see, Z wins on surfaces conducive to her running style. Ok, but she wins. What about those who race on the front end, on dirt, which is conducive to their running style?

Don't inject logic. It's bad.

[andymays]

Did Z win under wraps? No

Did Z win ridden out? No

Did Z win in a drive? Yes

She is still outstanding but like the other thread said it's like hitting homerun #600 off a high school pitcher.


Richard Eng on Z: 'It's like A Rod Hitting #600 Off a High School Pitcher!'
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=73768

[only11]

Your post makes little sense....you are backing up your pro Zenyatta stance by pointing out as a positive that she had to run her ass off to beat the types of second tier horses she beat in her last two.....
No what im saying 2nd tier horse or not there are days where your not going to be at the top of your game..

[PaceAdvantage]

Don't inject logic. It's bad.Nobody is calling Rachel the best horse that ever lived...and rightfully so...but some are calling Zenyatta that, and therein lies the reason for her critics.

[v j stauffer]

Why, 'cause only11-critique = Zen career critique?

And Zen career critique = hatin'? And hatin' = RA-luuuuvsmoochysmoochhugs? Same as it ever was, my fabulous frantic friend?

Ah well, at least you're just so perfectly cliche and SUPER easy to shrug off. Suppose the collective has that goin' for it. :D

Carry on! More threads pleez! But not really. I'm serious.

Well that clears things up for me.

[only11]

Why, 'cause only11-critique = Zen career critique? Reallyreally?

And Zen career critique = hatin'? And hatin' = RA-luuuuvsmoochysmoochugs? Same as it ever was, my fabulous frantic friend?

Ah well, at least you're just so perfectly cliche and SUPER easy to shrug off. Suppose the collective has that goin' for it. :D

Carry on! More threads pleez! But not really. I'm serious.
Hey Bluegrass why dont you and the RA fans breakdown the LADYS SECRET RACE AGAIN... :lol: :lol: :lol:

[letswastemoney]

I can't wait to play against her in the BC Classic if she goes in.

No 6 year old has ever won the Classic, not even Cigar, and she will have to beat this statistic for me not to cash in.

[andymays]

What would have happened if Goldikova was in the race?


Hmmmmmmmmmm.

[Relwob Owner]

What she did today is like a dome, west coast offense style, football team playing in the snow, wind and muck and still finding a way to win. She clearly is uncomfortable on that racetrack. You could see it when she was galloping/jogging back. Almost as if she was annoyed. Say what you will. NOTHING and I mean NOTHING can be said against 18 for 18. Period:)


It is an amazing streak and she is an amazing mare..... but like everything, I think it is fair to put it in context. 17 races against fillies, one against males. For that reason, I feel something can always be questioned/said against or about it and its place in the overall history of racing in terms of analysis of all horses, male and female.....

[DeanT]

Nobody is calling Rachel the best horse that ever lived...and rightfully so...but some are calling Zenyatta that, and therein lies the reason for her critics.

It has nothing to do with Rachel.

Tom is exactly right. Being critical of Z for running on tracks which are better for her running style is like criticizing Quality Road, or any other speed horse for running on a surface conducive to his running style. We don't do that.

We're asking a deep closer to go undefeated not only on a track which is fairer to closers, but on other surfaces which are unfair to closers, to somehow consider her success trancending.

The mare cant win....... even when she wins.

[Nikki1997]

She moved early and was all out to win. I know they're saying she wasn't all out but Smith went to the whip several times in stetch.

Zenyatta was all out to win.

Dear Andy,

I know you WANT her to be all out, but she wasn't. She toyed with the field. You want to see all out? Check out the 2009 Woodward. Maybe you'll get a better understanding of what being "fully extended" (chart for that race) a/k/a "all out". This race today doesn't half way approach "being all out". But, hey, I don't want to disillusion you. You need to have something to hang onto.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Dear Andy,

I know you WANT her to be all out, but she wasn't. She toyed with the field. You want to see all out? Check out the 2009 Woodward. Maybe you'll get a better understanding of what being "fully extended" (chart for that race) a/k/a "all out". This race today doesn't half way approach "being all out". But, hey, I don't want to disillusion you. You need to have something to hang onto.

What race were you watching?

[tzipi]

Hey Bluegrass why dont you and the RA fans breakdown the LADYS SECRET RACE AGAIN... :lol: :lol: :lol:

Only11 you seem mad she had to run down and barely beat a horse who can't even win a G3 race and are taking it out on people here. Don't get mad. Zen was asked to win and she did. Was it greatest? no. But why get upset and bring up things to trash other horses and people?

[andymays]

Dear Andy,

I know you WANT her to be all out, but she wasn't. She toyed with the field. You want to see all out? Check out the 2009 Woodward. Maybe you'll get a better understanding of what being "fully extended" (chart for that race) a/k/a "all out". This race today doesn't half way approach "being all out". But, hey, I don't want to disillusion you. You need to have something to hang onto.

I guess when he whipped her about 5 times I was imagining that? :rolleyes:

If you think she toyed with the field then you ought to seriously think about getting a new TV. Did you listen on the radio? Then I might understand.

[tzipi]

Dear Andy,

I know you WANT her to be all out, but she wasn't. She toyed with the field. You want to see all out? Check out the 2009 Woodward. Maybe you'll get a better understanding of what being "fully extended" (chart for that race) a/k/a "all out". This race today doesn't half way approach "being all out". But, hey, I don't want to disillusion you. You need to have something to hang onto.

That's a funny post :D She "toyed" with a that horse to win by a neck? C'mon. The horse has no graded wins. You don't toy. You whip those horses by 5+.

[Tom]

Did Z win under wraps? No

Did Z win ? Yes-Did Z win ? Yes-Did Z win ? Yes-Did Z win ? Yes-Did Z win ? Yes
Did Z win ? Yes-Did Z win ? Yes-Did Z win ? Yes-Did Z win ? Yes-Did Z win ? Yes
Did Z win ? Yes-Did Z win ? Yes-Did Z win ? Yes-Did Z win ? Yes-Did Z win ? Yes
Did Z win ? Yes-Did Z win ? Yes-Did Z win ? Yes-Did Z win ? Yes-Did Z win ? Yes
Did Z win ? Yes-Did Z win ? Yes

[only11]

Only11 you seem mad she had to run down and barely beat a horse who can't even win a G3 race and are taking it out on people here. Don't get mad. Zen was asked to win and she did. Was it greatest? no. But why get upset and bring up things to trash other horses and people?
Dude i dont get upset over racehorses i just find it amusing when people love to find things to critique a horse whos hasnt lost in 3 years... :lol:

[andymays]

Did Z win ? Yes-Did Z win ? Yes-Did Z win ? Yes-Did Z win ? Yes-Did Z win ? Yes
Did Z win ? Yes-Did Z win ? Yes-Did Z win ? Yes-Did Z win ? Yes-Did Z win ? Yes
Did Z win ? Yes-Did Z win ? Yes-Did Z win ? Yes-Did Z win ? Yes-Did Z win ? Yes
Did Z win ? Yes-Did Z win ? Yes-Did Z win ? Yes-Did Z win ? Yes-Did Z win ? Yes
Did Z win ? Yes-Did Z win ? Yes


Yeeesssss she won in a drive. Nothing wrong with that. I'm sure Goldikova is a laughing though.

[tzipi]

Dude i dont get upset over racehorses i just find it amusing when people love to find things to critique a horse whos hasnt lost in 3 years... :lol:

99% of people here are not knocking ZENYATTA, just the races they put her in. Most of the fields like todays can barely even win a graded race! The best horse they had to offer couldn't even win a G3 race. I don't see people saying Zenyatta is untalented and horrible just that her competition is. They're lower level horses at best. But again I don't see anyone attacking Zen for what she is in the world.

[v j stauffer]

It is an amazing streak and she is an amazing mare..... but like everything, I think it is fair to put it in context. 17 races against fillies, one against males. For that reason, I feel something can always be questioned/said against or about it and its place in the overall history of racing in terms of analysis of all horses, male and female.....

Not comparing in this post to the greats of all time. Simply saying that 18 for 18 is perfection and that cannot be knocked. All she can do is finish in front of all that she faces and that's exactly what she's done. Others have tried that for generations and only a VERY VERY select few have been perfect. PERFECT!!!.That's the hard part. HAIL HAIL ZENYATTA:ThmbUp:

[Tom]

I'm sure Goldikova is a laughing though.

She had the option of running here today....bwaaaccckkk bwwwacckkkkk!!! :rolleyes:oy-vei!

[only11]

Yeeesssss she won in a drive. Nothing wrong with that. I'm sure Goldikova is a laughing though.
Andy is GOLDIKOVA THE SAME HORSE WHO RUNS ON A PREFFERED SURFACE LIKE Z?

[andymays]

Andy is GOLDIKOVA THE SAME HORSE WHO RUNS ON A PREFFERED SURFACE LIKE Z?


Goldikova has run against the best on a consistent basis. Nothing restricted. The poll in another thread is overwhelming.

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=73768

Over 88% think Goldikova has had the toughest schedule the last two years and oh yea, she won a bunch of them against the best.

[Vinnie]

What would have happened if Goldikova was in the race?


Hmmmmmmmmmm.

The outcome most likely would not have been a positive one for team Z. That is probably what most likely would have happened.

[andymays]

She had the option of running here today....bwaaaccckkk bwwwacckkkkk!!! :rolleyes:oy-vei!

Goldikova and her connection have principles. :D

[andymays]

The outcome most likely would not have been a positive one for team Z. That is probably what most likely would have happened.

Hmmmmm, I think you're right by just a little. :ThmbUp: ;)

[born2ride]

Dear Andy,

I know you WANT her to be all out, but she wasn't. She toyed with the field. You want to see all out? Check out the 2009 Woodward. Maybe you'll get a better understanding of what being "fully extended" (chart for that race) a/k/a "all out". This race today doesn't half way approach "being all out". But, hey, I don't want to disillusion you. You need to have something to hang onto.

Well apparently the chart caller disagrees with you. The chart says "gained the lead under a brisk hand ride past the eighth pole and held on gamely under some late urging"

[Relwob Owner]

Not comparing in this post to the greats of all time. Simply saying that 18 for 18 is perfection and that cannot be knocked. All she can do is finish in front of all that she faces and that's exactly what she's done. Others have tried that for generations and only a VERY VERY select few have been perfect. PERFECT!!!.That's the hard part. HAIL HAIL ZENYATTA:ThmbUp:


I guess I view her perfection with an asterik and I just cant get as excited about the types of races she won today....like I said an amazing mare with an amazing streak but I just cant get as excited when her connections continually keep her away from running her against the best......

[tzipi]

I guess I view her perfection with an asterik and I just cant get as excited about the types of races she won today....like I said an amazing mare with an amazing streak but I just cant get as excited when her connections continually keep her away from running her against the best......

Perfect way to put it Relwob. I feel the same way.

[DeanT]

Goldikova and her connection have principles. :D

Where the hell is the Golidikova talk coming from? After her last race it was Quality Road and Rail Trip. Get with the program Mays.

My quick math figures she went 23.4 and 22.4 and came home in 6. I would suspect that she would have to be used hard to do that, so I concur with your assessment.

Now as for the topic at hand, I will consider Zenyatta a decent mare only if she beats Goldikova, on turf, at a mile, while being ridden by Warren Sapp.

[Tom]

Beating Goldy would prove nothing, as she beat turf MALES last year and we were told right here that that was nothing.

[andymays]

Where the hell is the Golidikova talk coming from? After her last race it was Quality Road and Rail Trip. Get with the program Mays.

My quick math figures she went 23.4 and 22.4 and came home in 6. I would suspect that she would have to be used hard to do that, so I concur with your assessment.

Now as for the topic at hand, I will consider Zenyatta a decent mare only if she beats Goldikova, on turf, at a mile, while being ridden by Warren Sapp.

It's coming from another one of my outstanding polls.

Richard Eng on Z: 'It's like A Rod Hitting #600 Off a High School Pitcher!'
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=73768


Don't you know me by now Dean? It was a little bit of a set up. ;)

[DeanT]

Don't you know me by now Dean? It was a little bit of a set up. ;)

You're a pooh disturber Mays. And I know for a fact you were cheering for JERRY JAM's horse.

Quit winking at me.

[andymays]

Beating Goldy would prove nothing, as she beat turf MALES last year and we were told right here that that was nothing.

I think Rinterval is from Ireland where she had 8 starts and earned several hundred thousand on turf. Just imagine what Goldikova would have done on the wonderful Polytrack at Del Mar.

[andymays]

You're a pooh disturber Mays. And I know for a fact you were cheering for JERRY JAM's horse.

Quit winking at me.
Absolutely! ;) Sorry I couldn't help it.

[gm10]

A good victory on a track that is unsuited and which I dislike (that short stretch cheapens it quite a lot). The second finisher made life just as hard for Informed Decision in her last race, so she's not exactly a tomato in a Queen Martha or Zardana sense.

Anyway, surely onto New York now where we can squeeze the last bit of air out of the Rachel bubble. RA been ducking Zenyatta for a year now. In fact she's been ducking all grade 1 races for almost a year, and she still managed to lose twice. It're more than time to set the record straight on who exactly is the best horse in the country.

[Tom]

Originally Posted by DeanT
Where the hell is the Golidikova talk coming from?

Every time Z wins, we have to come up with yet another that would have beaten her ass. No matter how silly it is.

I bet the sales of Alka Seltzer are up tonight! :lol:

[andymays]

Every time Z wins, we have to come up with yet another that would have beaten her ass. No matter how silly it is.

I bet the sales of Alka Seltzer are up tonight! :lol:


Amanda Duckworth wrote a great article comparing the two (Z and G). According to Amanda there is no comparison.

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=71865

[tzipi]

A good victory on a track that is unsuited and which I dislike (that short stretch cheapens it quite a lot). The second finisher made life just as hard for Informed Decision in her last race, so she's not exactly a tomato in a Queen Martha or Zardana sense.

Anyway, surely onto New York now where we can squeeze the last bit of air out of the Rachel bubble. RA been ducking Zenyatta for a year now. In fact she's been ducking all grade 1 races for almost a year, and she still managed to lose twice. It're more than time to set the record straight on who exactly is the best horse in the country.

:lol: Another winning post. Ducking G1 for a year. RA ran in a G1 race last Aug and then went off for about 7 months. Do you knock Zens race today against horses who can't even win a graded race?

"Ducking?" RA is entered in a top 1 1/4 race on a surface they both handle at the top meet. How is she ducking? Sad attempt by you. Why didn't they show up with Zen? the Zen camp avoided it to run against allowance horses in the Clement. 1 1/4 race hmmmm the distance people like yourself said the RA camp would avoid because Zen would enter and kill her at it.

[boogazie]

It's really silly to suggest that Goldikova would've won on the polytrack at Del Mar since she's never run on the stuff. Not all turf horses adapt well to the poly as shown by the last breeders cup. (Rip Van Winkle, Mastercrafterman, etc.)

Some people lose all sense of logic when it comes to discussing about Zenyatta.

[thaskalos]

IMO...Rachel is an afterthought right now. The "real" interest is in Zenyatta against the "boys".

In the court of public opinion...the race between Rachel and Zenyatta has already been decided.

[BluegrassProf]

In the court of public opinion...the race between Rachel and Zenyatta has already been decided.The only place it matters! Woot!

[andymays]

http://www.paulickreport.com/blog/and-still-undefeated/

Excerpt:

MIKE SMITH (Zenyatta) – "Oh, she was looking good today. This was Zenyatta. I wanted everyone to see her and she showed up. I think I hit the front too soon with her. She started looking around. She does that sometimes in her works. She’ll make the front and then start to shut down a little bit. That mare that hooked her today (Rinterval) was game. Good for her. But we got it done. She was Zenyatta. She’s something to believe in."

RAFAEL BEJARANO (Rinterval) – "I didn’t want to be in front. But she was comfortable. She was going OK. I tried to wait, but she (Zenyatta) came up outside me and I had to go. If I could have waited a little more, maybe it would have been different. But the winner deserved it. She was good."

Mike Smith again. "I got after her a little bit late. When the other mare (Rinterval) came to us, my mare got back to work."

[Relwob Owner]

IMO...Rachel is an afterthought right now. The "real" interest is in Zenyatta against the "boys".

In the court of public opinion...the race between Rachel and Zenyatta has already been decided.


Which court of opinion is this? Rachel took a few races to get rolling, then dropped a 108 Beyer in her last......

[boogazie]

Amanda Duckworth wrote a great article comparing the two (Z and G). According to Amanda there is no comparison.

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=71865

Like greatness, that is a purely subjective thing.

But for me, Goldikova's career has certainly been more satisfying.


That's how her article ends. She is not comparing their strengths but rather their campaigns. You make it sound like she is saying that one is better than the other.

[thaskalos]

The only place it matters! Woot!An honor to hear from you professor...:)

[tzipi]

IMO...Rachel is an afterthought right now. The "real" interest is in Zenyatta against the "boys".

In the court of public opinion...the race between Rachel and Zenyatta has already been decided.

She better step up her game a bit from today if she's gong to face the boys. I cant believe the camp is 100% thrilled with how the race went. They knew they were in light.

Public opinion means crap. You have to race. Public opinion had War Admiral over Seabiscuit easily. Thank God they didn't run that race to prove it :lol:

[andymays]

It's really silly to suggest that Goldikova would've won on the polytrack at Del Mar since she's never run on the stuff. Not all turf horses adapt well to the poly as shown by the last breeders cup. (Rip Van Winkle, Mastercrafterman, etc.)

Some people lose all sense of logic when it comes to discussing about Zenyatta.

Most horses that run well on turf adapt to surfaces like Poly at Del Mar and Pro Ride at Santa Anita. What makes you think that Goldikova would have finished up the track against this bunch?

[andymays]

Like greatness, that is a purely subjective thing.

But for me, Goldikova's career has certainly been more satisfying.


That's how her article ends. She is not comparing their strengths but rather their campaigns. You make it sound like she is saying that one is better than the other.

She's saying that Goldikova and her connections have taken on all comers and triumphed while the Z camp has not. Z has the luxury of running in restricted races when she feels like it. She feels like it a lot. ;)

[boogazie]

I'm not the one who suggested that she would win against Zenyatta. I'm just pointing out that your what if has a serious flaw: that you don't know how she will react to the surface.

[andymays]

I'm not the one who suggested that she would win against Zenyatta. I'm just pointing out that your what if has a serious flaw: that you don't know how she will react to the surface.
You haven't been around here long enough to know me. I'm mostly busting balls. ;)

[boogazie]

She's saying that Goldikova and her connections have taken on all comers and triumphed while the Z camp has not. Z has the luxury of running in restricted races when she feels like it. She feels like it a lot. ;)

Agreed and that's how I voted in the poll, but you said more or less that Amanda compared the two mares and it was a no contest. She never compared them... only their schedules. But hey I guess you can stretch it to whatever pushes your argument forward.

[BluegrassProf]

You haven't been around here long enough to know me. I'm mostly busting balls. ;)Yessir - big, waxy, uncontrollable plastic balls. :ThmbUp:

[andymays]

Agreed and that's how I voted in the poll, but you said more or less that Amanda compared the two mares and it was a no contest. She never compared them... only their schedules. But hey I guess you can stretch it to whatever pushes your argument forward.


see post #88

[Steve 'StatMan']

She's the Harlem Globetrotters of horse racing....
If you know what I mean....

mostpost can appreciate that one!

[Citation1947]

What would have happened if Goldikova was in the race?


Hmmmmmmmmmm.


Hell...I dont even think she beats RA right now much less Goldikova. RA's last two races easily beats any of Zenyatta's this year.

[andymays]

http://www.drf.com/blogs/del-mar-zenyatta-legend-grows

Excerpt:

Here are the facts: Zenyatta won the Grade 1 Clement Hirsch Stakes at Del Mar on Saturday to extend her winning streak to 18, improve her career earnings to $6,254,580, win her fourth Grade 1 of the year, and win the Hirsch for the third consecutive year.

She only won by a neck over Rinterval, a filly who was graded stakes-placed at Arlington Park last month, and even seemed to loaf in the final sixteenth, according to jockey Mike Smith. Even when he rode her in deep stretch, Smith never resorted to the whip . :confused:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I counted 9 times. But does the truth matter? This guys says he has the facts. The legend lives on. ;)

[Stillriledup]

http://www.drf.com/blogs/del-mar-zenyatta-legend-grows

Excerpt:

Here are the facts: Zenyatta won the Grade 1 Clement Hirsch Stakes at Del Mar on Saturday to extend her winning streak to 18, improve her career earnings to $6,254,580, win her fourth Grade 1 of the year, and win the Hirsch for the third consecutive year.

She only won by a neck over Rinterval, a filly who was graded stakes-placed at Arlington Park last month, and even seemed to loaf in the final sixteenth, according to jockey Mike Smith. Even when he rode her in deep stretch, Smith never resorted to the whip . :confused:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I counted 9 times. But does the truth matter? This guys says he has the facts. The legend lives on. ;)


Jerry Jam almost did Z! That would have been CLASSIC! Could you imagine Z losing to some nondescript horse from the midwest with a 59 Beyer fig on her recent form? Geez.

[DeanT]

I know we're supposed to discuss her having to beat a bunch of testicle horses and such, but this was her 12th grade one ? If she races one more before the BC and wins it, it ties her with Bayakoa on the all time list. But if she goes to the Classic and gets dusted, which I don't think would shock too many people, she would end her career tied without that record.

Times sure change in racing. She might have 20 starts only, while 20 years ago these mares had a lot of darts to chuck.

http://www.drf.com/blogs/creme-de-les-femmes

[Nikki1997]

Hell...I dont even think she beats RA right now much less Goldikova. RA's last two races easily beats any of Zenyatta's this year.

Bring her on. Please, please bring Rachel on. You guys who have underestimated Zenyatta? Please continue doing so. Bring Rachel on. Please. :) When some of you experts realize that Rachel and Quality Road are milers, please let me know. Can either horse get beyond that? They can. But, not with Zenyatta in the field.

[chickenhead]

Mike is pretty sneaky when he shakes the whip, he may have hit her on the backstroke a few times early on, its hard to tell, but his final 5 or 6 whip swings are clearly just showing her the whip, you can see the whip coming up against his pants and silks on the backswing.

[DeanT]

Time to change your facebook page and sig line Chick. We lost :)

[andymays]

Mike is pretty sneaky when he shakes the whip, he may have hit her on the backstroke a few times early on, its hard to tell, but his final 5 or 6 whip swings are clearly just showing her the whip, you can see the whip coming up against his pants and silks on the backswing.

I give up. :bang:

He was showing her the whip and hitting himself.

Can we all agree that he hit her at least twice even though it looked like 9 times.

[chickenhead]

I guess I'll have to start a "Please don't run the the Zenyatta Stakes, Zenyatta!" page.

[cj]

I guess I'll have to start a "Please don't run the the Zenyatta Stakes, Zenyatta!" page.

I wouldn't waste my time. She is 98.42% to run there at Santa Anita. At least 1% of the remainder is for the Spinster.

[chickenhead]

I give up. :bang:

He was showing her the whip and hitting himself.

Andy if you've never seen a jockey shake the whip like that, parallel to a horse, rather than hitting them every time -- I don't know what to say. You've seriously never noticed Smith doing that before?

It's got nothing to do with synthetics or Z, and also not something out of the ordinary.

[andymays]

Andy if you've never seen a jockey shake the whip like that, parallel to a horse, rather than hitting them every time -- I don't know what to say. You've seriously never noticed Smith doing that before?

It's got nothing to do with synthetics or Z, and also not something out of the ordinary.

Yes, I know it's done. In this case it would be stretching the truth to say he never hit her.

[PaceAdvantage]

Well apparently the chart caller disagrees with you. The chart says "gained the lead under a brisk hand ride past the eighth pole and held on gamely under some late urging"I would agree with the chart caller.

[cj]

Yes, I know it's done. In this case it would be stretching the truth to say he never hit her.

Watch the head on guys...he was whipping no doubt.

[andymays]

Watch the head on guys...he was whipping no doubt.

Thank you! It doesn't fit the legend though. For Steve Andersen to write that he never hit her is astonishing.

[PaceAdvantage]

Where the hell is the Golidikova talk coming from? After her last race it was Quality Road and Rail Trip. Get with the program Mays.

My quick math figures she went 23.4 and 22.4 and came home in 6. I would suspect that she would have to be used hard to do that, so I concur with your assessment.

Now as for the topic at hand, I will consider Zenyatta a decent mare only if she beats Goldikova, on turf, at a mile, while being ridden by Warren Sapp.Not to go down this road for the millionth time, but it appears you still don't understand what some people are saying.

You appear to be Mr. Literal, as in, now she has to beat Goldikova to gain any respect. Not what was said.

[PaceAdvantage]

Beating Goldy would prove nothing, as she beat turf MALES last year and we were told right here that that was nothing.Another who only hears what he wants to hear, and not the meaning that is being conveyed.

[PaceAdvantage]

Some people lose all sense of logic when it comes to discussing about Zenyatta.Couldn't agree more with this statement. Bravo.

[PaceAdvantage]

In the court of public opinion...the race between Rachel and Zenyatta has already been decided.Not in this court. Not by a longshot.

On the dirt, Rachel beats Zenyatta. No doubt in my mind. At 10f, I'm not as sure, as you guys have dented my brain a bit with the "Rachel can't get 10" crap. Which is why if I owned Zenyatta, I would have jumped at the chance to run in the Personal Ensign...but, oh well I guess.

No doubt in my mind that Rachel beats Zenyatta on a dirt track at 9f. Absolutely no doubt...

[DeanT]

Not to go down this road for the millionth time, but it appears you still don't understand what some people are saying.

You appear to be Mr. Literal, as in, now she has to beat Goldikova to gain any respect. Not what was said.
It was not about you Pace, it was a response to Andy and his disturbing. It was in jest.

[PaceAdvantage]

It was not about you Pace, it was a response to Andy and his disturbing. It was in jest.I know, but I like to jump in... :lol:

[JustRalph]

This show is getting old

I still see nothing from Z that compares with RA's Woodward.

I think she should have been in the Whitney with that crowd if she wanted to impress me............ I don't remember the eligibility for the Whitney? Was she eligible? I think so........why not there? They say she may be coming to Belmont anyway.........why didn't they run in the Whitney today?

[sandpit]

I would run the mare in the G1 Spinster at Keeneland, then leave her in KY until the BC. If any racing fans in America deserve to see her run, it is the 30K that would show up in Lexington, not the 6,500 at Belmont's empty caverns.

[Pine Tree Lane]

You mean she did win last year on a similar track. Right?? See, that's the difference this year. She won't be the only poly horse in a poly race. She'll be the only poly horse in a dirt race. See the slight difference.

Now that's funny

[Pine Tree Lane]

What she did today is like a dome, west coast offense style, football team playing in the snow, wind and muck and still finding a way to win. She clearly is uncomfortable on that racetrack. You could see it when she was galloping/jogging back. Almost as if she was annoyed. Say what you will. NOTHING and I mean NOTHING can be said against 18 for 18. Period:)

Bingo. The Vanity is easily one of your best calls. Great work.

[Pine Tree Lane]

This show is getting old

I still see nothing from Z that compares with RA's Woodward.


Has any horse from that race won since then?

[BluegrassProf]

*Knock Knock*
Has any horse from that race won since then?"Ah, Simpleton Jones! Welcome! Late to the party as usual, I see?

Well heck, c'mon in - help yourself to some refreshments...there's a fabulous chocolate fountain over there next to the giant sub. Since I think you missed most of the conversation, we're lucky enough to have someone taking copious notes on topics like 'Quality of Competition '09-'10' in the background. Feel free to go through them at your convenience, since I think the discussion's about played itself into the ground, and I for one am sooooo tired of going over it for these folks who just can't seem to understand basic repetition of facts.

But no worries, Simpleton Jones: I expect you to pick it up just fine on your own. Go grab some o' that big-ass sammich and enjoy the party!"




I kid, I kid. Seriously, heya. ;)

[v j stauffer]

I guess I view her perfection with an asterik and I just cant get as excited about the types of races she won today....like I said an amazing mare with an amazing streak but I just cant get as excited when her connections continually keep her away from running her against the best......

She defeated a great Grade I field in the BC Classic.

[Audioslavery]

Zenyatta is a complete and utter professional, no west coast bashing twat can possibly disagree with that. There is no horse. that puts on a show from Paddock to Winner's Circle like Zenyatta. She transcends the races themselves, I find it unfortunate that they still haven't shipped her east because once you see her in person during race day, then you'll understand why.

She was marvelous today, even with those stupid slow fractions. She wasn't all out by any means, Mike Smith HAND RODE her to first place. At this point, Zenyatta apparently thought the race was over and began to slow down, at which point Smith had to urge her on with the whip. Plan and simple. (It was 1 1/16 mile race, so there was very little chance of her being tired or worn down by any means)

This is still the #1 horse in the country, with Lucky, Blame, and QR following right behind leading to November. I cannot wait for the doubts to be completely wiped away.

[BluegrassProf]

Zenyatta is a complete and utter professional, no west coast bashing twat can possibly disagree with that.Hmmm. Interesting - is this as opposed to an unnecessarily-aggressive-poster-bashing twat?

Badoom-crash! :D :faint:

In all seriousness: from where I'm sitting, it looks like there's not been one person in any of these threads making comments appropriate for your sweeping call-out. But heck, if you're doling out the "twat" label arbitrarily, color me interested in the latter...:ThmbUp:

[v j stauffer]

Hmmm. Interesting - is this as opposed to an unnecessarily-aggressive-poster-bashing twat?

Badoom-crash! :D :faint:

In all seriousness: from where I'm sitting, it looks like there's not been one person in any of these threads making comments appropriate for your sweeping call-out. But heck, if you're doling out the "twat" label arbitrarily, color me interested in the latter...:ThmbUp:

Sharp post. Ten pages of takes offered with class and passion. Then AUDIO you chose to cheapen it by using a despicable word. No class.:(

[PaceAdvantage]

This is still the #1 horse in the country...Based on what exactly? You cannot be serious...

I guess St Trinians really is a force to be reckoned with...beating her vaults you to the #1 spot in the country. Or maybe it was the fact she beat Dance to My Tune twice this year? Wait, that can't be it. Dance to My Tune doesn't even show ONE WIN in her past performances...scratch that...

Or maybe it's her win over Taptam (who?)?

Or was it the stirring stretch run to beat Rinterval only a few scant hours ago? That must be it. Rinterval...she actually shows ONE victory in her past ten races...that was in some overnight stakes at Turfway...that must be what makes Zenyatta #1 in the country right now...

Color me bemused.

[Stillriledup]

Based on what exactly? You cannot be serious...

I guess St Trinians really is a force to be reckoned with...beating her vaults you to the #1 spot in the country. Or maybe it was the fact she beat Dance to My Tune twice this year? Wait, that can't be it. Dance to My Tune doesn't even show ONE WIN in her past performances...scratch that...

Or maybe it's her win over Taptam (who?)?

Or was it the stirring stretch run to beat Rinterval only a few scant hours ago? That must be it. Rinterval...she actually shows ONE victory in her past ten races...that was in some overnight stakes at Turfway...that must be what makes Zenyatta #1 in the country right now...

Color me bemused.


Normally, when Z wins, i'm like WOW, she did it again. Today, i was like "yikes, that wasn't good"

[Java Gold@TFT]

She's the current Lava Man except that we actually got to see that he couldn't win much outside of So Cal. Those Rockies are lokking bigger and bigger with every race. 1 1/16th in 1 1/8th time is not very impressive. She should be able to workout faster than that regardless of the speed of horses in front of her on the track.

[Relwob Owner]

She defeated a great Grade I field in the BC Classic.


I would put that field in the "very good" category, rather than saying it was a "great" field....plus, it was on her preferred surface......she did run a huge race but went right back to running against soft fields in restricted races and that is where my view of her with an asterix comes from......

[tucker6]

She defeated a great Grade I field in the BC Classic.
Vic,

Don't you really mean to say that she defeated a good (not great) Grade 1 field of turf and dirt horses in the BCC run on poly??

Let's not shade the facts, and those are the facts. Zenyatta loses credit points from me for the BCC because of what she faced (turf and dirt horses) and where she faced them (poly track).

Tom

[tucker6]

I would put that field in the "very good" category, rather than saying it was a "great" field....plus, it was on her preferred surface......she did run a huge race but went right back to running against soft fields in restricted races and that is where my view of her with an asterix comes from......you are a brilliant man. I wish I had gotten to your post before writing the very same thing. :)

[TheBid9]

I can't recall when such a good horse was so badly spoken of, in fact I don't know if I've ever experienced it. Z is on the mountain top and everybody wants to knock her off. It appears to be human nature. She's bashed like it's her fault that she's been cloistered in Cal.. Running styles, fractions, track conditions don't seem to matter. The pace was fast, the pace was slow, the competition stinks, the track stinks and still the mare wins. No matter where or how she has to do it, the mare wins. I'll be so glad when BC is over and the forums can be filled with new Z bashings. I'll remember the monotonous and lethargic ways my fellow posters described how she can't beat this horse or get this distance or can't run on dirt and I'll think back on how the mare just kept winning.

[FenceBored]

Tom is exactly right. Being critical of Z for running on tracks which are better for her running style is like criticizing Quality Road, or any other speed horse for running on a surface conducive to his running style. We don't do that.


Nobody around here has ever questioned the figure or the chops of a front runner who won a G1 on a speed biased track? Nice to know.

[andymays]

Jamgotchian's Rinterval gives Zenyatta a race

http://www.nctimes.com/sports/equestrian/racing/article_b4046446-bb32-577f-8f42-b6a10bd9cb7c.html

Excerpt:

DEL MAR -- Everyone knows that horse owner Jerry Jamgotchian isn't a fan of Polytrack or the Del Mar Thoroughbred Club hierarchy. Yet there he was on Saturday, almost shocking the world.

Jamgotchian's Rinterval led for the first mile of the Grade I Clement L. Hirsch Stakes before losing to undefeated mare Zenyatta by a neck. It was the second-closest finish in Zenyatta's 18-race winning streak.

"We were a (neck) short," Jamgotchian said. "We shipped across the country and came up a (neck) short to a champion."

It was the second straight race that Rinterval has lost to a Breeders' Cup champion. She lost the July 4 Grade III Chicago Handicap to Informed Decision, who won the Breeders' Cup Filly and Mare Sprint last year at Santa Anita. Zenyatta is the defending Breeders' Cup Classic champion.

"I've got to stop running against Breeders' Cup champions," Jamgotchian said.

[only11]

Why, 'cause only11-critique = Zen career critique? Reallyreally?

And Zen career critique = hatin'? And hatin' = RA-luuuuvsmoochysmoochugs? Same as it ever was, my fabulous frantic friend?

Ah well, at least you're just so perfectly cliche and SUPER easy to shrug off. Suppose the collective has that goin' for it. :D

Carry on! More threads pleez! But not really. I'm serious.
Wait you and the rest of the RA fans were handicapping and breaking down and analyzing RA 's 5 horse lady secret race..
How twisted is that..
she sat her usual harness pocket trip and blew the race open...lets go take a 3rd look at the race maybe she had her figure 8 bridle and still won... :lol:

[FenceBored]

Did Z win ? Yes-Did Z win ? Yes-Did Z win ? Yes-Did Z win ? Yes-Did Z win ? Yes
Did Z win ? Yes-Did Z win ? Yes-Did Z win ? Yes-Did Z win ? Yes-Did Z win ? Yes
Did Z win ? Yes-Did Z win ? Yes-Did Z win ? Yes-Did Z win ? Yes-Did Z win ? Yes
Did Z win ? Yes-Did Z win ? Yes-Did Z win ? Yes-Did Z win ? Yes-Did Z win ? Yes
Did Z win ? Yes-Did Z win ? Yes

Now she's 22-0? What'd I miss? :confused:

[FenceBored]

I think that the biggest issue the Zenyatta "haters" have isnt with the horse, but with her fans who seem to be conveying the notion that it is OK to go easy against soft competition all year, gear up for one race and expect to win HOY, which I dont believe is deserving of the award.

:ThmbUp: Nicely said.

[Headbanger]

I guess Eric Reed isn't afraid of the Rocky Mountains...unfortunately we can't say the same for John Sherriffs.

[Jasonm921]

Dear Andy,

I know you WANT her to be all out, but she wasn't. She toyed with the field. You want to see all out? Check out the 2009 Woodward. Maybe you'll get a better understanding of what being "fully extended" (chart for that race) a/k/a "all out". This race today doesn't half way approach "being all out". But, hey, I don't want to disillusion you. You need to have something to hang onto.

So a 3y old filly in the first weekend of September going against the best older dirt horses in the region goes 22 and change and holds on at 1 1/8 is being scorned. R u kidding?
So if Zenyatta won for fun...should Smith get days for abusive use of the whip? Sheriffs got everything he wanted for the Personal Ensign ...dirt (supposed preferred surface), no security barn and 1 1/4 but he still found a way to dodge the race. And this fallacy of the 2010 apple blossom. Zenyatta was working out through her fake retirement. They tried to goad a layed up Rachel into a race knowing that she hadn't stepped foot on a track to work in 5 months. That is like sugar ray leonard, in fighting shape, challenging an out of shape, 200 lb roberto duran to a fight in 4 weeks. They tried to catch an out of shape Rachel and it almost worked. Now that she is in shape they want nothing to do with her.

[only11]

So a 3y old filly in the first weekend of September going against the best older dirt horses in the region goes 22 and change and holds on at 1 1/8 is being scorned. R u kidding?
So if Zenyatta won for fun...should Smith get days for abusive use of the whip? Sheriffs got everything he wanted for the Personal Ensign ...dirt (supposed preferred surface), no security barn and 1 1/4 but he still found a way to dodge the race. And this fallacy of the 2010 apple blossom. Zenyatta was working out through her fake retirement. They tried to goad a layed up Rachel into a race knowing that she hadn't stepped foot on a track to work in 5 months. That is like sugar ray leonard, in fighting shape, challenging an out of shape, 200 lb roberto duran to a fight in 4 weeks. They tried to catch an out of shape Rachel and it almost worked. Now that she is in shape they want nothing to do with her.
which field was tougher the BC classic in which Z won with her ears pricked or the life and death struggle to hold off the mighty Macho Again...
now shes in shape after reeling of 2 wins in a row...must be the figure 8 bridle...

[Fager Fan]

Goldikova has run against the best on a consistent basis. Nothing restricted. The poll in another thread is overwhelming.

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=73768

Over 88% think Goldikova has had the toughest schedule the last two years and oh yea, she won a bunch of them against the best.

Goldi is running on turf, a surface which helps females compete with males. Zenyatta may well be doing the same. Of those two, Goldi's run against better competition but neither have run at a difficulty level that Rachel did last year and what Rachel and/or Zenyatta may do later this year.

[Fager Fan]

which field was tougher the BC classic in which Z won with her ears pricked or the life and death struggle to hold off the mighty Macho Again...
now shes in shape after reeling of 2 wins in a row...must be the figure 8 bridle...

A 3yo filly running against older males in a dirt route is tougher than a 5yo mare running against males on the surface she excels at and which aids her running style and is not the preferred surface of her competitors.

[andymays]

Goldi is running on turf, a surface which helps females compete with males. Zenyatta may well be doing the same. Of those two, Goldi's run against better competition but neither have run at a difficulty level that Rachel did last year and what Rachel and/or Zenyatta may do later this year.

I brought Goldikova into the mix just to throw the Z worshippers off stride just a little. Z is certainly great but her competition has been less than stellar overall. I think the poll has her in third place right now.

The poll in the thread below speaks volumes.

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=73768

[Jasonm921]

A 3yo filly running against older males in a dirt route is tougher than a 5yo mare running against males on the surface she excels at and which aids her running style and is not the preferred surface of her competitors.

Took the words out of my mouth. Zenyatta' greatness is akin to the Tyson myth in the late 80's. Beat a bunch of tomato cans and the sheeple will love ya. Regarding the BC Classic last year. The only thing Pro-Ride is good for is the trivia answer in 2 years ...."What fake surface that none of the east coast dirt horses ever ran on did the synthetic specialist Zenyatta win on?". Yeah this is equivalent to winning the BC Classic on Dirt. Believe me if she wins it this year on dirt I will be the first one stating that there should be statues erected of her at every track...until then it is no different than Goldikova's win in the Turf Mile.

[Vinnie]

Vic,

Don't you really mean to say that she defeated a good (not great) Grade 1 field of turf and dirt horses in the BCC run on poly??

Let's not shade the facts, and those are the facts. Zenyatta loses credit points from me for the BCC because of what she faced (turf and dirt horses) and where she faced them (poly track).

Tom

I must mirror this post unfortunately. Love Z, but, if you watch that race on replay you can clearly see where those horses in the BC (i.e.- Einstein, Colonel John, etc.) endured everything on the front end and at the beginning of the stretch they nearly collectively "backed right up" just when Z started with her running like she always does. It was a nice win. But, turf and dirt horses all of a sudden being thrust on the Poly just doesn't cut it as a top notch field.

[FenceBored]

which field was tougher the BC classic in which Z won with her ears pricked or the life and death struggle to hold off the mighty Macho Again...
now shes in shape after reeling of 2 wins in a row...must be the figure 8 bridle...

:sleeping: When in danger or in doubt trot the '09 Woodward out.
(with apologies to R. A. Heinlein)

[joanied]

She moved early and was all out to win. I know they're saying she wasn't all out but Smith went to the whip several times in stetch.

Zenyatta was all out to win.

andy...he didn't hit her, he was waving the stick, not touching her, at least not that I could see.
Your little Rinterval ran a hell of a race:ThmbUp:

[Grits]

:sleeping: When in danger or in doubt trot the '09 Woodward out.
(with apologies to R. A. Heinlein)

:lol: :lol: :lol: Good one FB, good one.

[joanied]

Sharp post. Ten pages of takes offered with class and passion. Then AUDIO you chose to cheapen it by using a despicable word. No class.:(

Thank you for saying what I wanted to...not too much in the way of words offends me...but that word is completely classless and totally uncalled for to make his point.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Z ran a 94 Beyer yesterday, not exactly awe-inspiring.

[delayjf]

andy...he didn't hit her, he was waving the stick, not touching her, at least not that I could see.

I just watched the race and as far as I could see, Smith actual hit her once, the rest of the time he was just waving the stick at her.

[cj]

Did you guys watch the head on? Sure looks like she was hit a few times to me.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Did you guys watch the head on? Sure looks like she was hit a few times to me.

Good call on watching the head-on - looks like he hit her 4 times.

[cj]

Good call on watching the head-on - looks like he hit her 4 times.

What I find amazing is that I've posted it at least three times, but very few actually bother to watch and just keep repeating the same nonsense.

[chickenhead]

I could see from the side view that he might have hit her a few times early, but that he wasn't hitting her late. Someone was saying she was whipped at least 9 times, which is just as incorrect as saying she was not whipped at all.

[andymays]

What I find amazing is that I've posted it at least three times, but very few actually bother to watch and just keep repeating the same nonsense.

I had to go back and watch the video five times to make sure I wasn't crazy. Then I go to DRF and Steve Anderson says Smith never went to the whip so I watched it again. The they start saying he just showed it to her so I looked again. WTF is going on? He had to hit her 3 or 4 times and he used the whip about 9 times.

People are so nuts about Z that they see things that didn't happen. She's outstanding and that wasn't her best race but c'mon. :rolleyes:

For some reason Twin Spires replays and Cal Racing replays don't have the headon view.

[andymays]

I could see from the side view that he might have hit her a few times early, but that he wasn't hitting her late. Someone was saying she was whipped at least 9 times, which is just as incorrect as saying she was not whipped at all .

:eek: Was she whipped? Yes

How many times? Anywhere from 1 to 9 times depending on who you ask.

How is that close to saying she wasn't whipped at all? :rolleyes:

[OntheRail]

Yes against this group Mike should of been able the hand ride her with a blindfold on... cause according to many Zenyatta is able to time the pace and distance to the wire all on her own. They can not comprehend that Mike had to use the whip on her... so they just dismiss it like it did not happen. :rolleyes:

At least he did not have to flail on her like he did in the Vanity :eek: .

[joanied]

andy....where can I find a head-on? I've tried several sites, no head-on...thanks in advance:)

[Saratoga_Mike]

andy....where can I find a head-on? I've tried several sites, no head-on...thanks in advance:)

equibase

[andymays]

andy....where can I find a head-on? I've tried several sites, no head-on...thanks in advance:)

I can't find it on the two replay sites I use. I know Smith swung the whip about 9 times. I guess a case can be made that he hit her 3 or 4 times.

At the top of the stretch she looked like she would win easily. She won but not as easily as some are saying. When she moves early she doesn't run as well as when she makes one big run.

[chickenhead]

I never said she wasn't whipped at all. Technically, 4 is closer to 0 than 9 is, but neither is really right. :lol:

I wasn't trying to crucify anyone, you or the author. I thought I was helping to find the truth.

and for whatever reason, to BOTH our detriments (probably a CHRB conspiracy) Cal- Racing doesn't have the head on.

[andymays]

I never said she wasn't whipped at all. Technically, 4 is closer to 0 than 9 is, but neither is really right. :lol:

I wasn't trying to crucify anyone, you or the author. I thought I was helping to find the truth.


Got it. We'll move on to bigger and better things. ;)

[joanied]

equibase

Thank you, Mike:)

[WinterTriangle]

Not comparing in this post to the greats of all time. Simply saying that 18 for 18 is perfection and that cannot be knocked.
Being critical of Z for running on tracks which are better for her running style is like criticizing Quality Road, or any other speed horse for running on a surface conducive to his running style.
Zenyatta is a top class racehorse...there is no debate there...Shirreffs is a top class trainer and Mike Smith still has his moments now and then...
Add that to surfaces which are highly conducive to her running style + terribly sub-standard fields for the majority of her races, and you have yourself the recipe for "undefeatedness."

Horseracing is a business. The name of the game is placement.

Recipe implies a formula that can be followed and repeated.

Pace listed what has to come together: class horse, class trainer, decent jock, who run their horse where it's style is favored, and where/when they can WIN.

Since there is no arguing that the name of the game is winning and expert placement is a major part of that, my question to some of you is: Why is this kind of success not more common?



There's a huge # of TB starters/ trainers on the tracks worldwide each year. Many are given the best horses. Are trainers in NA, Europe, Asia and down under missing something elementary? Why are so few able to duplicate 18-0?

(and $6,254,580, 10 G1's, keeping their horses racing-fit til almost 7, staying healthy, remaining undefeated, rated 5th in the world, making history books, etc?)

Why would any top class trainer run their top class racehorses on surfaces NOT condusive to their running style? Why would they place them where they know the competition is far, far superior?

Do you think they would make money persisting in these practices?


I suspect that Sheriff's handling of Zenytta is the dream scenario for horsemen.....because it has been an elusive recipe for them.

[Relwob Owner]

Horseracing is a business. The name of the game is placement.


Recipe implies a formula that can be followed and repeated.

Pace listed what has to come together: class horse, class trainer, decent jock, who run their horse where it's style is favored, and where/when they can WIN.

Since that is true, my question to some of you is: Why is this kind of success not more common?



There's a huge # of TB starters/ trainers on the tracks worldwide each year. Many are given the best horses. Are trainers in NA, Europe, Asia and down under missing something elementary? Why are so few able to duplicate 18-0?

(and $6,254,580, 10 G1's, keeping their horses racing-fit til almost 7, staying healthy, remaining undefeated, rated 5th in the world, making history books, etc?)

Why would any top class trainer run their top class racehorses on surfaces NOT condusive to their running style? Why would they place them where they know the competition is far, far superior?

Do you think they would make money persisting in these practices?


I suspect that Sheriff's handling of Zenytta is the dream scenario for horsemen.....because it has been an elusive recipe for them.




It is a dream scenario for an owner and trainer who dont have that much of a competitive spirit and know deep down that if they did run their horse against the best competition for any sustained length of time, that their "perfect" horse would not have such a perfect record........hearing them speak about the brilliance of their own horse while running her in restricted, soft races is just nauseating......


Zenyatta is an amazing mare with an amazing streak...you ask why it doesnt happen more? One could surmise that it is the perfect combination of a very talented horse coupled with unambitious connections content to do all they can to protect their record....

[DeanT]

Zenyatta is an amazing mare with an amazing streak...you ask why it doesnt happen more? One could surmise that it is the perfect combination of a very talented horse coupled with unambitious connections content to do all they can to protect their record....

Nonsense.

They have raced her for three years at a grade I level. Horses do not do that often because time after time after time their human connections have butchered them in the guise of sportsmanship.

Criticizing these people for caring about their horse is exactly what this sport does not need.

Find something else to bitch about.

[thaskalos]

It is a dream scenario for an owner and trainer who dont have that much of a competitive spirit and know deep down that if they did run their horse against the best competition for any sustained length of time, that their "perfect" horse would not have such a perfect record........hearing them speak about the brilliance of their own horse while running her in restricted, soft races is just nauseating... Is that really the reason why there aren't any more horses with Zenyatta's record, running around our tracks?

All the other owners and trainers of very talented horses...suffer from overly competitive spirits?

[Relwob Owner]

Nonsense.

They have raced her for three years at a grade I level. Horses do not do that often because time after time after time their human connections have butchered them in the guise of sportsmanship.

Criticizing these people for caring about their horse is exactly what this sport does not need.

Find something else to bitch about.


Dean,

I am surprised by your post because you usually seem to engage in intelligent debate. That is a pretty crappy thing telling me to "find something else to bitch about" and is the type of post that leads to the back and forths that tie up threads and get personal....you could simply disagree and I would respect your opinion.....I wont go down the back and forth road but will point out the hypocrisy on your end because arent you are essentially bitching about my opinion and doing the same thing?????...make sense????


I am not criticizing them for caring about the horse. I am criticizing them for ducking other horses and keeping her in easy spots, which is EXACTLY what they do. It might be easier to take if they didnt talk after each race how great their own horse is and how she "toyed" with the mediocre horses she beats.......I am also questioning those fans who fawn all over her and how great she is when she has run 94.7 percent of her races in restricted company.....

From your post, you seem to convey the notion that people who run their horses against the best over and over are "butchering" them, correct? So, all owners and trainers should handle their horses like Sheriffs and Moss have handled Z? My, what an exciting sport it would be..... :eek:


I dont feel like the sport needs this type of management at all and it deserves to be criticized...how are you supposed to get consistent fans when the stars only face each other once a year? Please, please answer that for me......

Is that post OK with you? Is it still "bitching" too much?

[DeanT]

Sorry Relwob. It goes back to my history of this game knowing and hearing people running horses with a half a tendon or a hairline and not caring one lick about them. I get steamed when I read post after post or news story after news story asking horses to be treated like they are some sort of novelty item and not a horse.

I admire the Mosses and admire Shirreff's for how they have taken care of her, and how they have not compromised her in the sometimes brutal game of racing. If there were more people like that owning horses we would not have needed synthetic tracks, because the breakdown rate would be cut in half overnight.

Anyway, please accept my apology.

[Relwob Owner]

Is that really the reason why there aren't any more horses with Zenyatta's record, running around our tracks?

All the other owners and trainers of very talented horses...suffer from overly competitive spirits?


I pointed out the lack of competitive spirit in Moss and Sheriffs and never mentioned other connections having "overly competitive" ones.....I would ask you this-do you refute the notion that they way Moss and Sherriifs have managed Zenyatta displays any sort of competitive spirit? I am open to changing my mind so if so, fill me in.....

[Relwob Owner]

Sorry Relwob. It goes back to my history of this game knowing and hearing people running horses with a half a tendon or a hairline and not caring one lick about them. I get steamed when I read post after post or news story after news story asking horses to be treated like they are some sort of novelty item and not a horse.

I admire the Mosses and admire Shirreff's for how they have taken care of her, and how they have not compromised her in the sometimes brutal game of racing.

Apologies.



You never have to apologize to me Dean-your posts are always loaded with insight and I tend to learn a lot from them......as far as my view on horses and owning them, check out the O'Neill thread and my comments there and that will fill you in....you and I feel the same way.

I guess my Z thoughts are just filled with frustration because I love the sport so much and would love to see Zenyatta run against the best more than once a year..... plus, the combo of Moss, Sheriffs just irritate me for some reason(then you throw in TVG and ugh).....My personal take is she would lose but I would love to be wrong, just like I was wrong about the 2009 Classic!:):)

[cj]

Why would any top class trainer run their top class racehorses on surfaces NOT condusive to their running style? Why would they place them where they know the competition is far, far superior?



This very trainer keeps telling us she is better on dirt, yet he avoids it like the plague. Someone is lying, again.

[cj]

You never have to apologize to me Dean-your posts are always loaded with insight and I tend to learn a lot from them......as far as my view on horses and owning them, check out the O'Neill thread and my comments there and that will fill you in....you and I feel the same way.

I guess my Z thoughts are just filled with frustration because I love the sport so much and would love to see Zenyatta run against the best more than once a year..... plus, the combo of Moss, Sheriffs just irritate me for some reason(then you throw in TVG and ugh).....My personal take is she would lose but I would love to be wrong, just like I was wrong about the 2009 Classic!:):)

This is my view. The sport was founded on running the best against the best and see who really is the champion. Now, it has turned into running in the easiest spots one can find and avoiding challenges at all costs. This isn't restricted to Zenyatta, it is an epidemic in our sport. It sucks and it is killing the game.

[DeanT]

You never have to apologize to me Dean-your posts are always loaded with insight and I tend to learn a lot from them......as far as my view on horses and owning them, check out the O'Neill thread and my comments there and that will fill you in....you and I feel the same way.

I guess my Z thoughts are just filled with frustration because I love the sport so much and would love to see Zenyatta run against the best more than once a year..... plus, the combo of Moss, Sheriffs just irritate me for some reason(then you throw in TVG and ugh).....My personal take is she would lose but I would love to be wrong, just like I was wrong about the 2009 Classic!images/UBGX/E1.gifimages/UBGX/E1.gif No, it's good for me to apologize. That was unacceptable behavior.

I too being a fan want to see her go, but as a horse lover and knowing both the long term plan for that horse, and what geography dictates I can not be overly critical. If I owned her she would be an east coast horse so it would be different, but on the west coast I would not have done a ton differently. I want my horses to last and be sound and happy. I can see where they are coming from and I respect them.

[andymays]

No, it's good for me to apologize . That was unacceptable behavior.

If it makes you feel better you can apologize to me any time you want Dean.

[Relwob Owner]

No, it's good for me to apologize. That was unacceptable behavior.

I too being a fan want to see her go, but as a horse lover and knowing both the long term plan for that horse, and what geography dictates I can not be overly critical. If I owned her she would be an east coast horse so it would be different, but on the west coast I would not have done a ton differently. I want my horses to last and be sound and happy. I can see where they are coming from and I respect them.


If I owned her, I would be on my yacht right now instead of my family room:).....as a small time owner, I know how hard it is to keep a horse fit and that arm chair managing is easier said than actual owning and training is done....that being said, I stick to my wish that she would have more of an ambitious schedule and my general critcism of the connections but as we all know, the owner and trainer get to call all of the shots!

[WinterTriangle]

The sport was founded on running the best against the best and see who really is the champion. Now, it has turned into running in the easiest spots one can find and avoiding challenges at all costs. This isn't restricted to Zenyatta, it is an epidemic in our sport. It sucks and it is killing the game.

CJ, I see more than one epidemic killing the game. For (probably too many) the game has turned into money and ego at the expense of the horses and the sport itself. Racing drugged cripples, getting the last drop, putting horses in races where they don't belong. More than enough topics on things of that nature this week.

If we also have an epidemic of avoiding challenges, and it is simply a matter of running in the easiest spots, why aren't more horsemen doing it and succeeding?


Secondly, I think it is conjecture to ever say what is in somebody else's mind and heart.

Until you sit down with those connnections, and spend some genuine time with them, you and I might garner some sense of what is in their hearts and minds. But basing that on sound-bytes, etc. probably isn't objective or sound.


If both practices are not to be admired----Is it actually *easier* to cheat, drug horses, and/or pay high vet bills, rather than just following Sheriff's simple recipe? Because there seems to be an awful lot of *desperation* in the sport.

Knowing what I know about human nature, you'd have to design a very cogent argument that it's all about good sportsmanship, honorable challenge. If it were the sport would look thoroughly different.:)

I really don't know what motivates Sheriffs/Moss. I don't know what thier belief system is, and I don't know their deeply-held values and worldviews.

I do very much appreciate the devotion and care given to this mare, and
I do differentiate racehorses from "gladiators".

The trick that racing must perform is to combine what you, and what I, find admirable. Give these horses the very best one has to give, such that benefits their well being, and in return, you may then ask them to take on big challenges.

Seems simple but elusive for many.

[MNslappy]

If I owned her she would be an east coast horse so it would be different, but on the west coast I would not have done a ton differently.

Would you have taken a shot at winning the Pacific Classic in a few weeks? I bet ya would have. Probably would've won it too! Damn shame we'll never know...

[PaceAdvantage]

I can't recall when such a good horse was so badly spoken of, in fact I don't know if I've ever experienced it. Z is on the mountain top and everybody wants to knock her off. It appears to be human nature. She's bashed like it's her fault that she's been cloistered in Cal.. Running styles, fractions, track conditions don't seem to matter. The pace was fast, the pace was slow, the competition stinks, the track stinks and still the mare wins. No matter where or how she has to do it, the mare wins. I'll be so glad when BC is over and the forums can be filled with new Z bashings. I'll remember the monotonous and lethargic ways my fellow posters described how she can't beat this horse or get this distance or can't run on dirt and I'll think back on how the mare just kept winning.You make it sound so dirty. Like tripping a little old lady trying to cross the street.

Lighten up. We're talking about a horse.

[PaceAdvantage]

Z ran a 94 Beyer yesterday, not exactly awe-inspiring.Beyers only count when they are predictive. They aren't supposed to be predictive on polytrack....OOOPS....top two Beyers finished one-two in the Clement L. Hirsch Saturday...now what race was Zenyatta in again?

[Java Gold@TFT]

Doesn'y anybody remember some of the crap going on in the late '70's regarding horses impressions? I know it was long before the internet so it wasn't quite as public but Seattle Slew was one of the most maligned horses I remember. People were openly cheering against him in the Derby because of his owners. It was a field day when they went to So Cal to chase an inflated purse and didn't care about resting the horrse after the TC races.

Then 2 years later there was a horse named Smarten. I believe at the time he was the first horse to win 5 Derbies as a 3yo. I forget which they were right now but they probably included, Illinois, Penn, American, Iowa, etc.. The only reason he had that title was that his trainer and owner were quite open about getting everything they could without ever having to face Spectacular Bid.

All I'm saying is that racing schedules and ducking top horses is nothing new. Also, the 'hate' that appears aimed at Zenyatta's management team is not totally different from that which Slew saw at age 3. He gained much more respect at 4 when he wasn't even named HOY.

And for those who talk about how unfair it would be for Zenyatta to be retired undefeated and not win HOY, please tell me how many HOY trophies Personal Ensign brought home?

[TheBid9]

You make it sound so dirty. Like tripping a little old lady trying to cross the street.

Lighten up. We're talking about a horse.

Just me protecting my "girl". A little too emotional, perhaps but you understand, I've seen you get a little cranked when someone knocks the filly.

[Relwob Owner]

Beyers only count when they are predictive. They aren't supposed to be predictive on polytrack....OOOPS....top two Beyers finished one-two in the Clement L. Hirsch Saturday...now what race was Zenyatta in again?


Nice point.....I have seen that "Beyers arent predictive" stuff come up again lately...convenient timing, in that it is often used to defend Zenyatta and her slow races, isnt it? Didnt you point out at the BC last year how well the Beyers did...maybe people need a refresher?

[Saratoga_Mike]

Nice point.....I have seen that "Beyers arent predictive" stuff come up again lately...convenient timing, in that it is often used to defend Zenyatta and her slow races, isnt it? Didnt you point out at the BC last year how well the Beyers did...maybe people need a refresher?

Softball down the center of the plate!

[Audioslavery]

Last week,

Quality Road this! Quality Road that!


This week,


Blame this! Blame that!


It's regional bias in this sport that really turns myself, as a young fan, away from this game. Zenyatta is a great horse, unfortunately, we have to wait till November to see the bottom of her on a dirt track. People have nothing better to do except bicker amongst themselves for the time being and it's getting out of hand.

She's a great horse, she beat males last year, granted the media didn't get to run her campaign as anticipated this year (unlike Secretariat). But the cautiousness that her connections have demonstrated is clearly out of concern and care. John Shirreffs is not a big trainer and he definitely has built a special relationship with Zen, he's definitely maintaining a happy horse in his stable, not many trainers can say that.

As for the bias in the sport, hell, Lookin at Lucky has shown the most resiliency out of ANY horse this year, I don't understand why people continue to ignore this colt as we near November. Quality Road ran slow fractions this weekend and still couldn't hold off Blame. God knows we'll have a ton of pace in the Classic, even with equal weights, Quality Road cannot run the way he did and expect to make the board this year.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Last week,


This week,



It's regional bias in this sport that really turns myself, as a young fan, away from this game. Zenyatta is a great horse, unfortunately, we have to wait till November to see the bottom of her on a dirt track. People have nothing better to do except bicker amongst themselves for the time being and it's getting out of hand.

She's a great horse, she beat males last year, granted the media didn't get to run her campaign as anticipated this year (unlike Secretariat). But the cautiousness that her connections have demonstrated is clearly out of concern and care. John Shirreffs is not a big trainer and he definitely has built a special relationship with Zen, he's definitely maintaining a happy horse in his stable, not many trainers can say that.

As for the bias in the sport, hell, Lookin at Lucky has shown the most resiliency out of ANY horse this year, I don't understand why people continue to ignore this colt as we near November. Quality Road ran slow fractions this weekend and still couldn't hold off Blame. God knows we'll have a ton of pace in the Classic, even with equal weights, Quality Road cannot run the way he did and expect to make the board this year.

Rivalries, regional or otherwise, aren't good for sports?

As for Lookin at Lucky, he's 6-1 overseas for the BCC, whereas Zen is 9/2. I don't think he's being ignored, at least not by the money. I would agree he's overshadowed by incessant Zen/RA talk, but I'm not sure that's a bad thing.

[Relwob Owner]

[QUOTE=Audioslavery]


She's a great horse, she beat males last year, granted the media didn't get to run her campaign as anticipated this year (unlike Secretariat). But the cautiousness that her connections have demonstrated is clearly out of concern and care. John Shirreffs is not a big trainer and he definitely has built a special relationship with Zen, he's definitely maintaining a happy horse in his stable, not many trainers can say that.


I have no doubt that her connections care about their horse tremendously. However, I think that concerns and care is coupled with a large concern and care for her streak. That concern leads to soft spots.

I think the connections want to have their cake and eat it too in some ways. They want to be able to run her in very weak spots on her preferred surface without shipping her. She wins those weak races and after them, they enjoy fawning all over their horse and how great she is.....they expect to be able to run in these creampuffs, then win one race against boys and claim their horse is HOY. Then, when their horse isnt voted HOY because of the weak schedule, they complain about it....doesnt add up to me.

[Audioslavery]

[QUOTE=Audioslavery]


She's a great horse, she beat males last year, granted the media didn't get to run her campaign as anticipated this year (unlike Secretariat). But the cautiousness that her connections have demonstrated is clearly out of concern and care. John Shirreffs is not a big trainer and he definitely has built a special relationship with Zen, he's definitely maintaining a happy horse in his stable, not many trainers can say that.


I have no doubt that her connections care about their horse tremendously. However, I think that concerns and care is coupled with a large concern and care for her streak. That concern leads to soft spots.

I think the connections want to have their cake and eat it too in some ways. They want to be able to run her in very weak spots on her preferred surface without shipping her. She wins those weak races and after them, they enjoy fawning all over their horse and how great she is.....they expect to be able to run in these creampuffs, then win one race against boys and claim their horse is HOY. Then, when their horse isnt voted HOY because of the weak schedule, they complain about it....doesnt add up to me.


While I do agree that the undefeated fixation by her connections is irritating. I don't think her connections are very concerned with horse of the year, I have a feeling that 2009 was the last straw in that regard. If she does manage to win back to back Classics though, you can be certain that her place in history will be etched; with or without HOTY honors. And I'm sure we can all agree on that.

[Saratoga_Mike]

[QUOTE=Relwob Owner]


While I do agree that the undefeated fixation by her connections is irritating. I don't think her connections are very concerned with horse of the year, I have a feeling that 2009 was the last straw in that regard. If she does manage to win back to back Classics though, you can be certain that her place in history will be etched; with or without HOTY honors. And I'm sure we can all agree on that.

Are you serious?

[sandpit]

Doesn'y anybody remember some of the crap going on in the late '70's regarding horses impressions? I know it was long before the internet so it wasn't quite as public but Seattle Slew was one of the most maligned horses I remember. People were openly cheering against him in the Derby because of his owners. It was a field day when they went to So Cal to chase an inflated purse and didn't care about resting the horrse after the TC races.

Then 2 years later there was a horse named Smarten. I believe at the time he was the first horse to win 5 Derbies as a 3yo. I forget which they were right now but they probably included, Illinois, Penn, American, Iowa, etc.. The only reason he had that title was that his trainer and owner were quite open about getting everything they could without ever having to face Spectacular Bid.

All I'm saying is that racing schedules and ducking top horses is nothing new. Also, the 'hate' that appears aimed at Zenyatta's management team is not totally different from that which Slew saw at age 3. He gained much more respect at 4 when he wasn't even named HOY.

And for those who talk about how unfair it would be for Zenyatta to be retired undefeated and not win HOY, please tell me how many HOY trophies Personal Ensign brought home?

This is a really good post. We hear the same thing every spring on this very board "this crop of 3yos stink" and the like. I guess it's horseplayer nature to knock good horses. I, for example, could never understand the fascination with Skip Away and his "woe is me" trainer. But I couldn't figure out all the Slew-bashers either.

Bid was something else, by the end of his career, every horse in the land was ducking him.

Personal Ensign is one of my 3 favorite horses ever. I was blessed to see her live in the BC. Still, she beat the boys just once, and it was a 3-horse field. At least Zenyatta had a gatefull of them in her lone try. Winning HOY was always a tough prop for Personal Ensign since the colts were so good at the time.

Fast forward to the 1990s: If any horse got rooked out of championship honors, it was 2-time BC Mile winner Lure. He was a truly exceptional animal who faced some very, very good horses every time.

[carlonr]

[QUOTE=Audioslavery]


She's a great horse, she beat males last year, granted the media didn't get to run her campaign as anticipated this year (unlike Secretariat). But the cautiousness that her connections have demonstrated is clearly out of concern and care. John Shirreffs is not a big trainer and he definitely has built a special relationship with Zen, he's definitely maintaining a happy horse in his stable, not many trainers can say that.


I have no doubt that her connections care about their horse tremendously. However, I think that concerns and care is coupled with a large concern and care for her streak. That concern leads to soft spots.

I think the connections want to have their cake and eat it too in some ways. They want to be able to run her in very weak spots on her preferred surface without shipping her. She wins those weak races and after them, they enjoy fawning all over their horse and how great she is.....they expect to be able to run in these creampuffs, then win one race against boys and claim their horse is HOY. Then, when their horse isnt voted HOY because of the weak schedule, they complain about it....doesnt add up to me.

Exactly when did the Mosses complain?

[letswastemoney]

I wonder how far Zenyatta fans will go...

Do they think she's better than Cigar? Alysheba? Affirmed? Seattle Slew?

Do Zenyatta fans dare even say she has more talent than Secretariat? Could Zenyatta defeat a horse capable of a 130+ beyer?

Who would win such a poll?

[tucker6]

I wonder how far Zenyatta fans will go...

Do they think she's better than Cigar? Alysheba? Affirmed? Seattle Slew?

Do Zenyatta fans dare even say she has more talent than Secretariat? Could Zenyatta defeat a horse capable of a 130+ beyer?

Who would win such a poll?
I look at the Bloodhorse Top 100 from the 20th century, and every one of those horses challenged themselves to get on that list. What the Mosses have done to Zenyatta is a travesty. Because she's faced no one and runs on a surface alien to every horse on this list, we are unable to quantify her greatness. Surely though, we know in our heart of hearts she isn't top 20. Better than Phar Lap?? Better than Swaps?? Better than Ruffian?? Better than Sunday Silence?? I think not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood-Horse_magazine_List_of_the_Top_100_U.S._Racehorses _of_the_20th_Century

[FenceBored]

[QUOTE=Relwob Owner]

Exactly when did the Mosses complain?

January 18th, 2010 (for one):
After the ceremony, Jerry Moss said, "Zenyatta’s never lost. She’s perfect. Nobody’s beaten her on the racetrack. So they beat her by proxy as far as I’m concerned.
-- http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/54900/rachel-alexandra-named-horse-of-the-year

[carlonr]

[QUOTE=carlonr]

January 18th, 2010 (for one):
After the ceremony, Jerry Moss said, "Zenyatta’s never lost. She’s perfect. Nobody’s beaten her on the racetrack. So they beat her by proxy as far as I’m concerned.
-- http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/54900/rachel-alexandra-named-horse-of-the-year


The rest of the quote:This doesn’t take away anything from the just enormous job done by [trainer] John [Shirreffs]. I can’t say enough about what he and his barn have done. I obviously congratulate Mr. Jackson and Mrs. Jackson. They have a great horse. Someday we’ll meet, and we’ll decide at that time who is the best. Frankly I wouldn’t trade with anybody. I’m looking forward to the encounter.”




Saying you think your horse can beat their horse is not exactly a complaint about the award. He was true to his word, He answered the call and shipped to Oaklawn to settle it on the track.

[carlonr]

I look at the Bloodhorse Top 100 from the 20th century, and every one of those horses challenged themselves to get on that list. What the Mosses have done to Zenyatta is a travesty. Because she's faced no one and runs on a surface alien to every horse on this list, we are unable to quantify her greatness. Surely though, we know in our heart of hearts she isn't top 20. Better than Phar Lap?? Better than Swaps?? Better than Ruffian?? Better than Sunday Silence?? I think not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood-Horse_magazine_List_of_the_Top_100_U.S._Racehorses _of_the_20th_Century


She's never lost! Never had an off day where she just didn't fire. Best of all time for that reason. 18 (18-0-0)

[Dahoss9698]

She's never lost! Never had an off day where she just didn't fire. Best of all time for that reason. 18 (18-0-0)

Actually, by this line of thinking Peppers Pride is the best of all time.

[tucker6]

She's never lost! Never had an off day where she just didn't fire. Best of all time for that reason. 18 (18-0-0)
The question was whether she was better than any or all of the following:

Phar Lap
Swaps
Sunday Silnece
Ruffian

Please answer the question in any way you like, but please answer the question and not sidestep.

[FenceBored]

[QUOTE=FenceBored]

The rest of the quote:This doesn’t take away anything from the just enormous job done by [trainer] John [Shirreffs]. I can’t say enough about what he and his barn have done. I obviously congratulate Mr. Jackson and Mrs. Jackson. They have a great horse. Someday we’ll meet, and we’ll decide at that time who is the best. Frankly I wouldn’t trade with anybody. I’m looking forward to the encounter.”




Saying you think your horse can beat their horse is not exactly a complaint about the award. He was true to his word, He answered the call and shipped to Oaklawn to settle it on the track.

Whining about how they beat your horse "by proxy" is complaining. Period.

[FenceBored]

Actually, by this line of thinking Peppers Pride is the best of all time.

:eek: Don't let Chickenhead hear you talk like that.

[thaskalos]

Actually, by this line of thinking Peppers Pride is the best of all time.And you are winning handicapping contests? :)

[FenceBored]

And you are winning handicapping contests? :)

Yes he is, so apparantly there's some kernel of knowledge in that statement that you might want to think about.

[thaskalos]

Yes he is, so apparantly there's some kernel of knowledge in that statement that you might want to think about.Don't worry...I'm gonna take him on soon.

I am just waiting for him to "cool" down a little...:)

[tucker6]

I'm still waiting for you to answer the question I posed in post 197. You've ducked it like a good Zenyatta worshipper time and again. Time to answer it.

[carlonr]

The question was whether she was better than any or all of the following:

Phar Lap
Swaps
Sunday Silnece
Ruffian

Please answer the question in any way you like, but please answer the question and not sidestep.


I answered the question. She's the best of all time, because she won every time!

[Vinnie]

I answered the question. She's the best of all time, because she won every time!


Peppers Pride was 19-0 and never lost. By those figures alone I guess that PP retires as the greatest ever at this point in time... :bang:

[tzipi]

I answered the question. She's the best of all time, because she won every time!

Man, I can imagine how much money you lose to betting if this is what you know about racing. So Zens better than Secretariat,Man O War,Citation,etc,etc according to you because her connections have her beat up on sub par horses almost every race. Geez :rolleyes:

Imagine the all time greats records if they did that for their career:D

[tzipi]

I answered the question. She's the best of all time, because she won every time!

And Vinnies right too. According to your reasoning then Pepper's Pride(19-0!) is the greatest of all time because she stayed in one place running against overmatched horses mostly and "won every time!". Wow,this just gets better.

[PaceAdvantage]

Last week,


This week,
What the heck are you writing about? I have never talked up Quality Road and I have certainly never talked up Blame...although I certainly think both would handily defeat Zenyatta in a race on dirt.

[horses721]

Andy is GOLDIKOVA THE SAME HORSE WHO RUNS ON A PREFFERED SURFACE LIKE Z?

Point 1- Goldikova is running on a surface the horses have been running on for centuries. Not a surface made of wax and carpet fibres which has been nothing but trouble for the crews trying to maintain the track. Why might they move the upcoming Santa Anita meet to Hollywood? It's simple, because of the POLYCRAP!
Point 2- Goldikova traveled more in her lifetime in her first visit to Santa Anita to win the Breeders Cup than Zenyatta has done in her entire career.
Point 3-How many times has Goldi defeated the top ranked males in her division compared to Zenyatta??
Stop the excuses. Did you get excited about Peppers Pride winning 19 in a row? I'm sure you didn't but somehow the greatest filly to walk the planet can stay home and defeat a few tomato cans and you people call her the greatest of all time. What a joke.

[horses721]

This very trainer keeps telling us she is better on dirt, yet he avoids it like the plague. Someone is lying, again.

AMEN

[only11]

Point 1- Goldikova is running on a surface the horses have been running on for centuries. Not a surface made of wax and carpet fibres which has been nothing but trouble for the crews trying to maintain the track. Why might they move the upcoming Santa Anita meet to Hollywood? It's simple, because of the POLYCRAP!
Point 2- Goldikova traveled more in her lifetime in her first visit to Santa Anita to win the Breeders Cup than Zenyatta has done in her entire career.
Point 3-How many times has Goldi defeated the top ranked males in her division compared to Zenyatta??
Stop the excuses. Did you get excited about Peppers Pride winning 19 in a row? I'm sure you didn't but somehow the greatest filly to walk the planet can stay home and defeat a few tomato cans and you people call her the greatest of all time. What a joke.
What does horses runnnig on the same surface for years have to do with it?
Goldivoka 's best surface is grass...so your comparing peppers pride 19 in a row to Zenyatta's 18,,thank god,,,theres is someone on this forum that may be crazier then me
BTW you could only wish you had Zenyattas ass...

[horses721]

What does horses runnnig on the same surface for years have to do with it?
Goldivoka 's best surface is grass...so your comparing peppers pride 19 in a row to Zenyatta's 18,,thank god,,,theres is someone on this forum that may be crazier then me
BTW you could only wish you had Zenyattas ass...
I made 3 points about Goldikova compared to Zenyatta so why don't you debate those 3 points instead of twisiting what I am saying like you did in the post I quoted above.

[only11]

I made 3 points about Goldikova compared to Zenyatta so why don't you debate those 3 points instead of twisiting what I am saying like you did in the post I quoted above.
Just be around BC time,if Goldivoka is what you say she is then Z will see her in the classic right?

[Headbanger]

Just be around BC time,if Goldivoka is what you say she is then Z will see her in the classic right?

You must be absolutely retarded huh? So why don't we see Zenyatta line up against Goldikova in the Breeders Cup Mile on BC day...

Well shirlock, it's because Zenyatta hasn't run on turf and needs more ground than a mile, same concept as why you won't see Goldikova in the Classic because she's never run on dirt and her best distance is a mile.

You are dumber than I ever gave you credit for.

[only11]

You must be absolutely retarded huh? So why don't we see Zenyatta line up against Goldikova in the Breeders Cup Mile on BC day...

Well shirlock, it's because Zenyatta hasn't run on turf and needs more ground than a mile, same concept as why you won't see Goldikova in the Classic because she's never run on dirt and her best distance is a mile.

You are dumber than I ever gave you credit for.
Hey sherlock is spelled with a E dummy, i never once made the comparsions to Goldivoka others did,Z is a specialist and according to most so is Goldivoka,lets leave it there..
there isnt a horse that will beat Z IMO,dont care what surface,whos shes running against,what track,,shes a all time great
Again fans want to see her run against Ra and against the males in the Pacific classic,,who wouldnt..the goal is HOY and the BC classic..
and i will say it again this isnt about us ..its doing whats best for the horse,and trust me Z will be ready come BC time,until then quit bitching..

[Saratoga_Mike]

Hey sherlock is spelled with a E dummy, i never once made the comparsions to Goldivoka others did,Z is a specialist and according to most so is Goldivoka,lets leave it there..
there isnt a horse that will beat Z IMO,dont care what surface,whos shes running against,what track,,shes a all time great
Again fans want to see her run against Ra and against the males in the Pacific classic,,who wouldnt..the goal is HOY and the BC classic..
and i will say it again this isnt about us ..its doing whats best for the horse,and trust me Z will be ready come BC time,until then quit bitching..

These two statements seem inconsistent? If she's a specialist, doesn't that mean she specializes on synthetic surfaces? Ergo, her best efforts are on those surfaces? If so, shouldn't you care what surface she's running on? But I think you're essentially saying you agree with the management of the horse, which if they're trying to stay undefeated, I can't disagree with you--until she races in the BCC.

[only11]

These two statements seem inconsistent? If she's a specialist, doesn't that mean she specializes on synthetic surfaces? Ergo, her best efforts are on those surfaces? If so, shouldn't you care what surface she's running on? But I think you're essentially saying you agree with the management of the horse, which if they're trying to stay undefeated, I can't disagree with you--until she races in the BCC.
SM people keep bitching about Z's wins on the surface who cares,it could be a arguement IF SHE HADNT WON DIRT...
she beat the males 1 1/4 i dont care which surface it was on,she wouldve beat that same field on dirt...
Seattle Slew left the east coast once,Personal Ensign never left the east coast she beat a 50,000 claimer KINGS SWAN when run against the boys,doesnt take away from there accomplishments
talk when she gets beat,arguement gets old,imo she will finish 20-0,HOy,and duplicate her classic victory Zenyatta is one of a kind..

[Saratoga_Mike]

SM people keep bitching about Z's wins on the surface who cares,it could be a arguement IF SHE HADNT WON DIRT...
she beat the males 1 1/4 i dont care which surface it was on,she wouldve beat that same field on dirt...
Seattle Slew left the east coast once,Personal Ensign never left the east coast she beat a 50,000 claimer KINGS SWAN when run against the boys
talk when she gets beat,arguement gets old,imo she will finish 20-0,HOy,and duplicate her classic victory Zenyatta is one of a kind..

Gulch was second to Personal Ensign in the Whitney (Kings Swan was third). If you exclude Slew's trip to the Derby (midwest, but I guess most would loosely classify it as East Coast), you're right on his travels. But here's the difference: we Z-detractors think Cali racing, especially in the F&M ranks, stinks right now. I don't think that was true of East Coast racing when PE and SS were racing.

[only11]

Sm whats the first and the most important thing when training and owning a racehorse the caliber of Z?
Doing whats best for the horse?not only in racing but in sports,example Strasburg total stud limited to what ownership wants him to do,,
Fans are secondary..

[Saratoga_Mike]

Sm whats the first and the most important thing when training and owning a racehorse the caliber of Z?
Doing whats best for the horse?not only in racing but in sports,example Strasburg total stud limited to what ownership wants him to do,,
Fans are secondary..

I think she could face stiffer competition without injurying herself; I just think she might lose.

[only11]

I think she could face stiffer competition without injurying herself; I just think she might lose.
she aint getting younger,,6 years old...shes a freak..

[Saratoga_Mike]

she aint getting younger,,6 years old...shes a freak..

We'll just have to agree to disagree on whether tougher competition would result in an injury to her or not.

[Headbanger]

she aint getting younger,,6 years old...shes a freak..

Freaks don't beat Rinterval and Anabaa's Creation by very slim margins.

Freaks beat graded stakes winners like Malibu Prayer and Flashing by 20+ legnths, as well as G1 winners such as Gabby's Golden Gal, Jessica is Back and others by double digit lengths.

[only11]

Freaks don't beat Rinterval and Anabaa's Creation by very slim margins.

Freaks beat graded stakes winners like Malibu Prayer and Flashing by 20+ legnths, as well as G1 winners such as Gabby's Golden Gal, Jessica is Back and others by double digit lengths.
Was the freak the first female to win the classic?Is that the same florida specialist Jessica is Back?

[Headbanger]

Was the freak the first female to win the classic?Is that the same florida specialist Jessica is Back?

On Polyturf she won the Classic...did not win the Classic on dirt. Zenyatta is a wonderful horse, but she's proven nothing yet on dirt. And that Florida specialist is still a G1 winner which is more than I can say for most of the tomato cans that Zenyatta has been facing.

[only11]

On Polyturf she won the Classic...did not win the Classic on dirt. Zenyatta is a wonderful horse, but she's proven nothing yet on dirt. And that Florida specialist is still a G1 winner which is more than I can say for most of the tomato cans that Zenyatta has been facing.
She will win the classic @CD..just be patient,RA is on the same card 5 races before running against the mighyt Unbridled Belle..

[Headbanger]

She will win the classic @CD..just be patient,RA is on the same card 5 races before running against the mighyt Unbridled Belle..

Besides this tout might be the biggest confidence builder I have in knowing she won't win the classic...your tout.

Not on dirt she won't win the classic...Blame would and will drown her on dirt at 1 1/4.

[tucker6]

SM people keep bitching about Z's wins on the surface who cares,it could be a arguement IF SHE HADNT WON DIRT...
she beat the males 1 1/4 i dont care which surface it was on,she wouldve beat that same field on dirt...
Seattle Slew left the east coast once,Personal Ensign never left the east coast she beat a 50,000 claimer KINGS SWAN when run against the boys,doesnt take away from there accomplishments
talk when she gets beat,arguement gets old,imo she will finish 20-0,HOy,and duplicate her classic victory Zenyatta is one of a kind..
that's why you're a loser at handicapping. Stick to baseball, America Boring Pastime. Zzzzzzzzz

[tucker6]

Was the freak the first female to win the classic?Is that the same florida specialist Jessica is Back?yes, the same specialist that won on her specialty against horses not running on their specialty. You know, kinda like a mudder running a race against 10 other horses who have never seen mud before.

[only11]

that's why you're a loser at handicapping. Stick to baseball, America Boring Pastime. Zzzzzzzzz
Tucker im a loser ok with me,,doesnt matter what you think,,