Toccet's back

[cj]

Could be a new player late in the year.

DRF-Toccet (http://www.drf.com/news/article/49049.html)

[PurplePower]

I'm glad to see him back. He definitely can stir up the three-year old pot with some well-timed and spaced wins leading up to a Breeders Cup start.

[Valuist]

And Ashmore ran a big race as well. Over 18 lengths from 2nd to 3rd. Should be a big number for the top 2.

[andicap]

What gets me angry is the retirement of Vindication because he can't make it to the BC this year. What about next year? I know there's a ton of moneyt o be made in breeding but doesn't anyone think of the sport anymore??

Me suspects the horse would have come back sub-par, wasn't training well and they didn't want to risk poor performances as a 4-year old.

[Observer]

How about maybe they didn't want to risk re-injuring the horse?? Yes, money matters to most in this game .. but no horse = no money .. and no matter how much sportmanship any owner is willing to show, the best interest all around must take precedence.

And so what if the horse wasn't the same .. many aren't after an injury .. so then why bother going through a come-back only to tarnish a reputation?? I understand the frustration of seeing a talented career cut so short, but in the end, he probably never should have even been attempted to be brought back anyway. Not all injuries can be treated the same .. and not all horses respond the same, either.

[andicap]

I agree wholeheartedly, Observer. I suspect the horse wasn't the same as before the injury although why wouldn't they say that? Would that admission hurt their breeding prospects?

Obviously you don't want to see the horse come back unless he was champion he was before.

[Observer]

Well, I guess the thinking would be something like .. don't admit to more weakness than is already known. Instead, in this case, they can simply say, we're not going to make our main objective.

However .. in thinking about this as I write .. I'm pretty sure his breeding deal was set going into this year .. next year might not have even been an option .. I'm not sure on that .. but I'm almost positive a deal was struck before he was injured .. and that deal may have included his retirement at the end of his 3yo campaign .. like many of these types of deals do when they're done on young horses still racing. But again, I'm not 100% sure that's the case here .. just typing as I think.

[Valuist]

The days of the huge stud fees are gone, except for a handful of very successful sires. Look at some of the busts in recent years at stud: Cigar and War Emblem come immediately to mind. So what will Vindication stand for? I bet within 5 years he'll be standing for a $2500 fee.

[Buddha]

Originally posted by andicap

Me suspects the horse would have come back sub-par, wasn't training well and they didn't want to risk poor performances as a 4-year old.

When Vindication first started training to make a comeback, they had already had an agreement to stand stud at Hill 'n Dale Farms, whether he made it back to the races or not. I too am like most of the people. I would have liked to see more horses race past 3. With War Emblem. He doesn't seem interested in being a stud. He is still a young buck at 4. Why not try to put him back in training, and add back to the sport. Not that I think he was a great horse, but if he can get the lead, he can run. I think more should be added to the game instead of just running at 3 in the "Classics" trying a Breeders Cup, retiring at 3, and then going to stud.

[Bubbles]

Originally posted by Buddha
When Vindication first started training to make a comeback, they had already had an agreement to stand stud at Hill 'n Dale Farms, whether he made it back to the races or not. I too am like most of the people. I would have liked to see more horses race past 3. With War Emblem. He doesn't seem interested in being a stud. He is still a young buck at 4. Why not try to put him back in training, and add back to the sport. Not that I think he was a great horse, but if he can get the lead, he can run. I think more should be added to the game instead of just running at 3 in the "Classics" trying a Breeders Cup, retiring at 3, and then going to stud.

How about Fusaichi Pegasus? Horse was so impressive as a three-year-old, and they could have made a boatload of money with him at four, but they choose to ship him to Japan, where they slaughter great horses like Ferdinand. What's up with that?

[PurplePower]

Originally posted by Bubbles
How about Fusaichi Pegasus? Horse was so impressive as a three-year-old, and they could have made a boatload of money with him at four, but they choose to ship him to Japan, where they slaughter great horses like Ferdinand. What's up with that? Fusaichi Pegasus stands at Ashford Stud in Versailles, Ky. Stud Fee was $125K this past season. He was owned by a Japanese owner that sold him to Coolmore for $60 million. Unless he just sold to Japan, I don't think he has left this country since he hit the ground, I think at Claiborne Farm.

[Bubbles]

Thought Japan bought him for $70 mill. after the BC Classic that year. Might be wrong.

[PurplePower]

Nope. Not "Peg". Now War Emblem sold after the classic last year to Japan interest for $17 million.

[Observer]

Originally posted by Valuist
The days of the huge stud fees are gone, except for a handful of very successful sires. Look at some of the busts in recent years at stud: Cigar and War Emblem come immediately to mind. So what will Vindication stand for? I bet within 5 years he'll be standing for a $2500 fee.

It's not a matter of how much they stand for .. it's how much the initial deal brings in .. like the $60-$70 million for Fusaichi Pegasus, the $25 million for a partial interest in infertile Cigar, the $15 million for infertile A P Valentine .. and the $17-$18 million paid for War Emblem, who has been uninterested.

That's a lot of money for the owners who are racing the horses .. more than they could ever make with the horse on the track .. and what's the risk for the owners who race these sought-after horses?? .. nothing .. because if the horse is a dud at stud .. they still have the money from the sale.

However, for those willing to plunk down that kind of cash despite these such risky failures, you have many more horses shuttling between two hemispheres .. so the stallions are working double duty, and bringing in twice as much .. I do believe Fusaichi Pegasus is still one of these duel-hemisphere stallions .. shuttling between the U.S. and Australia. Thunder Gulch has been removed from double duty, at least for now, I think.

And don't forget, for the horses who do fail at stud .. they are insured. You wouldn't have a horse of that kind of value without having insurance on him.

War Emblem - $17-$18 Million Bust (http://www.thehorse.com/viewarticle.asp?fid=4241&dpt=5)

Coolmore Shuttle (http://www.aapracingandsports.com.au/racing/rsbreeding.asp?NID=279)

2002 Shuttlers to Australia - Check out the Numbers (http://www.studbook.aust.com/asp/DualHemiStallions.asp)

[Observer]

Originally posted by Bubbles
How about Fusaichi Pegasus? Horse was so impressive as a three-year-old, and they could have made a boatload of money with him at four, but they choose to ship him to Japan, where they slaughter great horses like Ferdinand. What's up with that?

First, the boatload of money was in selling him as a stallion .. $60-$70 million is unheard of .. no way a horse is going to earn that on the track .. especially in a 4-year-old campaign .. in addition, the horse did have his problems .. remember how lightly raced he was .. and when he did finally come back in the fall of his 3yo year, he didn't quite deliver in the big event, the one worth big money .. the BC Classic.

Second, as already said .. he was not shipped to Japan. He does not stand at Claiborne. He was sold to Coolmore, and spends his time between Kentucky and Australia.

Third, Japan is not the only country slaughtering horses. It happens here in America, too. Alright, so Ferdinand was a Derby winner .. so does that make it okay for all those other horses who were cast off from the track to suffer the same fate?

[PurplePower]

Originally posted by Observer
Second, as already said .. he was not shipped to Japan. He does not stand at Claiborne. He was sold to Coolmore, and spends his time between Kentucky and Australia. I saw him at Ashford in 2002. A very good female friend of mine accompained me on my Kentucky Derby 2002 trip and took some good pictures of him. You can see them at her website at www.accphotography.com. Interesting to note that neither Thunder Gulch or Hennessy are shuttling this year.