The catch 22 with Zenyatta's career campaign.

[Stillriledup]

I don't want to defend John and Jerry's handling of Z because we would all like to see her race better horses on more occasions than she has attempted. But, i'm going to make a point that some people aren't thinking about.

Z's 17 for 17 was only possible by one route and that is the route she took. If she was managed by a D Wayne Lukas type, she would have been broken down already, he would have flown her all over the place, raced her more often than she could stand and raced top competition all the time, she would have been touring more than the Ringling brothers show.

We want cake and eat it too. Yes, Z is great, no question. But, she would not be undefeated if she was managed by any other connections. Other people would found a way to get her beat by 'listening to the public's cry' about touring the country seeking out the best competition available.

Its hard to keep a horse like this in the barn, most owners and trainers are totally greedy and would have went to the well a long time ago with this horse.

If Z was 16 for 17 lifetime, it wouldnt be the same. If she lost ONE time, the crowds would not be as big nor would she have the same amount of love. We have all of this because of the management of the horse, no other connections would have gotten this horse to this point (i dont believe)

It is what it is, you cant have it both ways. Time to celebrate Z for what she's done, she is where she is specifically because of the conservative (for the most part) career campaign.

[Dahoss9698]

Who cares about being undefeated? You gain respect by running against the best than beating the same inferior foes while trying to remain undefeated.

[Stillriledup]

Who cares about being undefeated? You gain respect by running against the best than beating the same inferior foes while trying to remain undefeated.

I think a lot of people are 'into' Z because she's undefeated. My point was that if the connections decided halfway thru her career that they wanted the respect of the average horseplayer, she wouldnt be undefeated.

[Spalding No!]

I don't want to defend John and Jerry's handling of Z because we would all like to see her race better horses on more occasions than she has attempted. But, i'm going to make a point that some people aren't thinking about.
In other words, you'll be defending John and Jerry's handling of Zenyatta.

Z's 17 for 17 was only possible by one route and that is the route she took. If she was managed by a D Wayne Lukas type, she would have been broken down already, he would have flown her all over the place, raced her more often than she could stand and raced top competition all the time, she would have been touring more than the Ringling brothers show.
Yep, great point. Like Lady's Secret, Life's Magic, Serena's Song, North Sider, etc. As if there's only two type of trainers: disciples of John Shirreffs or disciples of D. Wayne Lukas.

We want cake and eat it too. Yes, Z is great, no question. But, she would not be undefeated if she was managed by any other connections. Other people would found a way to get her beat by 'listening to the public's cry' about touring the country seeking out the best competition available.
In other, less disingenuous words, Zenyatta would not be unbeaten if she ran in more top level races.

It's too bad Seattle Slew ran in the Swaps, or Cigar ran at Del Mar, or Secretariat ran in the Whitney instead of the Travers, or Spectacular Bid didn't skip the Belmont. Else they'd be great horses, too.

Its hard to keep a horse like this in the barn, most owners and trainers are totally greedy and would have went to the well a long time ago with this horse.
Yes, it's hard to keep a racehorse in the barn. You know, instead of racing it on the racetrack.

Bravo John and Jerry.

If Z was 16 for 17 lifetime, it wouldnt be the same. If she lost ONE time, the crowds would not be as big nor would she have the same amount of love. We have all of this because of the management of the horse, no other connections would have gotten this horse to this point (i dont believe)
Yes, instead of this fantasy world and its Unicorn Queen created by the hype machine, we might have had a horse who could have taken her place amongst other racing greats throughout the decades. Too bad John and Jerry were too busy trying to create the smoke-and-mirrors illusion that she is THE greatest of all time.

It is what it is, you cant have it both ways. Time to celebrate Z for what she's done, she is where she is specifically because of the conservative (for the most part) career campaign.
Where is she exactly? In California, galloping through a mixture of sand, wax, and rubber bits.

She's like Luke Skywalker in the trash compacter.

You're right about not being able to have it both ways. For my money, I'll take the other way any day of the week.

[BluegrassProf]

If Z was 16 for 17 lifetime, it wouldnt be the same. If she lost ONE time, the crowds would not be as big nor would she have the same amount of love. We have all of this because of the management of the horse, no other connections would have gotten this horse to this point (i dont believe)

It is what it is, you cant have it both ways.If you're assuming that 16/17 record in a legitimately tough, historic career is something that would somehow negate her hypothetical accomplishments on the track, I find the notion just completely ridiculous.

There are any number of truly great horses that have both seen defeat on the track and made history with their campaigns....I must say, the proposition that the two might be considered mutually exclusive is somewhat difficult to wrap my mind around.

As to your "running her into the ground" analogy: I think that by positing the two extremes in career paths (conservative vs. lethal) you neglect the huge middle-ground into which a great many historic runners fall. The catch-22 is, for the most part, a construction - we can in fact eat cake.

[tzipi]

ALOT of Lukas's fillys would have been undefeated with an easy campaign. Hell, alot of other fillys would've been too.

[letswastemoney]

I wouldn't mind the easy campaign so much if she didn't have the whole public fooled into thinking she's the best mare on any surface ever, despite only 2 dirt wins.

[thaskalos]

If you're assuming that 16/17 record in a legitimately tough, historic career is something that would somehow negate her hypothetical accomplishments on the track, I find the notion just completely ridiculous.

There are any number of truly great horses that have both seen defeat on the track and made history with their campaigns....I must say, the proposition that the two might be considered mutually exclusive is somewhat difficult to wrap my mind around.

As to your "running her into the ground" analogy: I think that by positing the two extremes in career paths (conservative vs. lethal) you neglect the huge middle-ground into which a great many historic runners fall. The catch-22 is, for the most part, a construction - we can in fact eat cake.Professor...I always enjoy reading your posts - even if we are in disagreement.

Although a 16/17 racing record would obviously NOT negate her "hypothetical" on-track accomplishments...you must concede that a fair percentage of Zenyatta's fan base is comprized of racetrack "novices"...who are attracted to her, primarily, because of her undefeated status.

IMO, an undefeated horse is often surrounded by a level of "mystique" and main-stream media attention...which often last about as long as the winning streak itself.

I would like to ask a question of you though...concerning Zenyatta's "hypothetical" on-track accomplishments.

I understand that a small minority of Zenyatta fans might have insinuated that she belongs among the best horses of all time...but the majority of us have been much more restrained in our praise.

I will readily admit that her connections have commited an injustice...both to her, and to the racing fans in general...with the campaign that they have chosen for her this year.

But what if she actually makes it to the BC Classic this November? Should we not then, look at her campaign in a new light? Is it fair to downplay the on-track accomplishments of a MARE who appeared in back-to-back BC Classics...on two different surfaces?

Can't we agree that, in this country at least, the careers of ALL the top fillies and mares, are managed with a great deal of caution...as far as facing the top males is concerned?

Or should we continue to compare Zenyatta's accomplishments with those of Secretariat, Cigar, Seattle Slew and Spectacular Bid...as was hinted by another member of this board?

[Stillriledup]

ALOT of Lukas's fillys would have been undefeated with an easy campaign. Hell, alot of other fillys would've been too.

But the point is that Lukas wouldn't have campaigned his horses like this. He's never been a conservative guy, Z would have danced every dance under his coaching.

[BluegrassProf]

Professor...I always enjoy reading your posts - even if we are in disagreement.

Although a 16/17 racing record would obviously NOT negate her "hypothetical" on-track accomplishments...you must concede that a fair percentage of Zenyatta's fan base is comprized of racetrack "novices"...who are attracted to her, primarily, because of her undefeated status.

IMO, an undefeated horse is often surrounded by a level of "mystique" and main-stream media attention...which often last about as long as the winning streak itself.

I would like to ask a question of you though...concerning Zenyatta's "hypothetical" on-track accomplishments.

I understand that a small minority of Zenyatta fans might have insinuated that she belongs among the best horses of all time...but the majority of us have been much more restrained in our praise.

I will readily admit that her connections have commited an injustice...both to her, and to the racing fans in general...with the campaign that they have chosen for her this year.

But what if she actually makes it to the BC Classic this November? Should we not then, look at her campaign in a new light? Is it fair to downplay the on-track accomplishments of a MARE who appeared in back-to-back BC Classics...on two different surfaces?

Can't we agree that, in this country at least, the careers of ALL the top fillies and mares, are managed with a great deal of caution...as far as facing the top males is concerned?

Or should we continue to compare Zenyatta's accomplishments with those of Secretariat, Cigar, Seattle Slew and Spectacular Bid...as was hinted by another member of this board?Likewise. :ThmbUp:

Certainly, I agree that many are attracted to the "Zen = perfection" construction; that's a-ok by me, but as usual, I - and plenty of others, clearly - won't be too be quick to hop on that wagon. Also agreed re: the issue of attention etc.

Not to get too OT, but I do think that this construction (as with Rachel to an extent but in a different way) has very much to do with gender, and how the accomplishments of each of these two talented fillies have been framed through their respective gender identities...but again, another issue for another thread. ;)

As to your second set of ?'s:

Because I consider the campaign as a whole the most important determinant of a horse's legacy (for ALL racing greats, males and females alike), I simply can't accept the view that consecutive BC appearances somehow supercedes all other opportunities throughout the season, and even less-so the notion that BC competition should come at the sacrifice of a year's-worth of thrilling, historic racing. To use a recently-mentioned non-RA example, think Goldikova: with Goldi, we've got a pretty exceptional athlete, competing in a fairly exciting transnational campaign over multiple seasons...a loss in her record is largely irrelevant, because it comes couched within a relatively strong campaign. (I saw a few folks in the other thread poking at her record...it's enough to make me break out in sillyass-post-induced hives.) Granted, she's a Euro, and that's another issue, but you get the idea.

As has been thoroughly discussed (and brought up recently in the "catch-22" thread), the issue of caution-in-campaigns needs to be removed from this "either/or" sort of construct, as in "we either wrap Zenyatta in bubblewrap and pack her in foamie peanuts or we light her aflame and catapult her into the ocean." From racing on multiple surfaces to running against the the toughest possible competition in specific divisions and open races alike, there are many avenues to building that legacy with ample consideration towards reasoned management - but in my opinion, each avenue is longitudinal, with that legacy ultimately built brick by brick, rather than by slamming a fancy door and an elaborate window on the ground and saying "look, it's a house."

It's interesting: I've seen considerably less "hater" labeling lately (save for people like Carl, who just can't seem to get off those darned uppers), particularly after the PE announcement, which has pushed many Zen fans over into the same boat as those historically critical of her connections' decisionmaking...for me, that's refreshing, as it's really always been about expecting something more from a mare that we all CLEARLY consider a truly exceptional athlete. It's not hating; it's disappointment. Now, if one considers her campaign to date a legitimately great one, then cool; we'll agree to disagree...neither that person nor myself are changing our respective mind, based on the criteria we've talked about to death.

With respect to Zenyatta's legacy, I do feel that, even with a BC race (and even with a BC win, and/or with an undefeated record at retirement), there will be considerable debate down the road regarding her career path - should she be considered amongst the greatest in the sport's history, males and females alike? That's ultimately subjective, but given how I've watched her campaigns unfold (along with where they've unfolded), it's something I simply can't do. Certainly, Zenyatta will be well-remembered for her exceptional talent, but the accuracy and aggressiveness of hindsight is considerable, and the flash bulbs are fleeting - it's all the worse watching it unfold from one race to the race, wanting it to be something greater than it is, and being absolutely unable to do a darn thing about it.

It seems to me that the disappointment is being felt much more accutely by the bigtime Zenyatta fans this season precisely because they weren't given what they were promised outright: vindication. And it wasn't just about Rachel Alexandra; it was about proving Zenyatta's mettle and placing her in what was so often called her rightful place in the pantheon, removing the pent-up doubts of 2009. Sadly, if we get only a BC from 2010, while it'll be plenty thrilling (particularly with a win), it's still a single big, bright starburst firework surrounded by snakes and sparklers. Honestly, those novelties are only going to give us so many thrills.

[Stillriledup]

Thanks for being a strong contributor prof, i appreciate the feedback.

Z falls into the category of a brilliantly great racehorse who has been managed perfectly. Z is not overrated because we know she's amazingly great and her record proves this. What bugs fans is that they feel that Z's owners should have ran her more times in stronger races and shipped her all over the country to take on all challengers.

They're mad at the connections for this 'approach' to managing Z. So, because they're mad at the owners for not 'showcasing' Z in different races, they are holding it against the horse, some are even saying she's overrated or whatnut. We shouldnt confuse being mad at the owners for Z being overrated and not great. When Z stepped up in the BC Classic, she showed her greatness. She also shipped to the midwest twice and was successful both times. Its true that most of her races were against Tomato cans, but she has run in races against very good competition, she's won two BC races also.

My original point was that in order for Z to have achieved this 17 for 17 record, she had to have her races spaced perfectly, gotten a ton of rest in between starts and raced most of her races against weak foes. If Z had a more aggressive campaign, she would have been beaten at some point, either fair and square by a monster like Quality Road, or just gotten beat because she was tired or run down or overtrained or tired from shipping, etc.

Racing has benefitted from Z being undefeated. More people are interested in seeing her run. If Z was 13 for 17 and was beaten a bunch of times, she would still be an attraction, but not nearly at the level she is at now, because of the undefeated career.

From a betting standpoint, i'd love to see her lose with my money against her in Pick 4s. From a fan standpoint, i dont want her to lose. Its fun that she's undefeated and its fun that new fans are flocking to see her, its great for racing and whats great for racing, i'm all for.

[bisket]

the majority of fans that seem to look for any little piece of information to downgrade zenyatta's accomplishments are from the "eastern" tracks. you can include many fans from kentucky also. its mostly fans and handicappers that hate poly track. i think if the bc wasn't on poly and in california for two years in a row this would be a moot point. what many of this crowd overlooks are two points: she's a mare and she races in california. when many are complaining about the horses she has faced; they are really just pissed because she hasn't raced at their tracks. namely churchill, belmont, and saratoga.

what i think is so very ironical about this situation is the exact same complaints were lodged against personal ensign from "western" fans. if you remember there was a certain 3 year old filly that won the derby.... for lucas. in this case, the shoe is on the other foot :D . i for one think zenyatta should race in california for her next two, and ship for the classic. i think it makes the most sense and puts her where she needs to be to win the classic. she can lose the classic and still win older filly/mare eclipse. the only way rachel can take an award from zen this year is if she in fact wins the classic. which has O chance of happening.

wooohooooo!!!!!! i'm gonna enjoy the discussion on that last statement, but its a FACT.

[MNslappy]

it's really always been about expecting something more from a mare that we all CLEARLY consider a truly exceptional athlete. It's not hating; it's disappointment. Now, if one considers her campaign to date a legitimately great one, then cool; we'll agree to disagree...neither that person nor myself are changing our respective mind, based on the criteria we've talked about to death.

With respect to Zenyatta's legacy, I do feel that, even with a BC race (and even with a BC win, and/or with an undefeated record at retirement), there will be considerable debate down the road regarding her career path - should she be considered amongst the greatest in the sport's history, males and females alike? That's ultimately subjective, but given how I've watched her campaigns unfold (along with where they've unfolded), it's something I simply can't do. Certainly, Zenyatta will be well-remembered for her exceptional talent, but the accuracy and aggressiveness of hindsight is considerable, and the flash bulbs are fleeting - it's all the worse watching it unfold from one race to the race, wanting it to be something greater than it is, and being absolutely unable to do a darn thing about it.

It seems to me that the disappointment is being felt much more accutely by the bigtime Zenyatta fans this season precisely because they weren't given what they were promised outright: vindication. And it wasn't just about Rachel Alexandra; it was about proving Zenyatta's mettle and placing her in what was so often called her rightful place in the pantheon, removing the pent-up doubts of 2009. Sadly, if we get only a BC from 2010, while it'll be plenty thrilling (particularly with a win), it's still a single big, bright starburst firework surrounded by snakes and sparklers. Honestly, those novelties are only going to give us so many thrills.

Thread should've been locked after this post, that's how good it was. :ThmbUp:

[Relwob Owner]

the majority of fans that seem to look for any little piece of information to downgrade zenyatta's accomplishments are from the "eastern" tracks. you can include many fans from kentucky also. its mostly fans and handicappers that hate poly track. i think if the bc wasn't on poly and in california for two years in a row this would be a moot point. what many of this crowd overlooks are two points: she's a mare and she races in california. when many are complaining about the horses she has faced; they are really just pissed because she hasn't raced at their tracks. namely churchill, belmont, and saratoga.

what i think is so very ironical about this situation is the exact same complaints were lodged against personal ensign from "western" fans. if you remember there was a certain 3 year old filly that won the derby.... for lucas. in this case, the shoe is on the other foot :D . i for one think zenyatta should race in california for her next two, and ship for the classic. i think it makes the most sense and puts her where she needs to be to win the classic. she can lose the classic and still win older filly/mare eclipse. the only way rachel can take an award from zen this year is if she in fact wins the classic. which has O chance of happening.

wooohooooo!!!!!! i'm gonna enjoy the discussion on that last statement, but its a FACT.


I dont have any East Coast bias at all-I am just biased against horses who duck competition and Z fits the bill there..

[FenceBored]

Because I consider the campaign as a whole the most important determinant of a horse's legacy (for ALL racing greats, males and females alike), I simply can't accept the view that consecutive BC appearances somehow supercedes all other opportunities throughout the season, and even less-so the notion that BC competition should come at the sacrifice of a year's-worth of thrilling, historic racing. To use a recently-mentioned non-RA example, think Goldikova: with Goldi, we've got a pretty exceptional athlete, competing in a fairly exciting transnational campaign over multiple seasons...a loss in her record is largely irrelevant, because it comes couched within a relatively strong campaign. (I saw a few folks in the other thread poking at her record...it's enough to make me break out in sillyass-post-induced hives.) Granted, she's a Euro, and that's another issue, but you get the idea.


Preach it, brother. :ThmbUp:

[jonnielu]

I dont have any East Coast bias at all-I am just biased against horses who duck competition and Z fits the bill there..

Exactly what has been stopping all of the "better" horses in the country from going out to Cal and whipping Zenyatta's ass anyway? Couldn't be the polytrack since that appears to be the only thing propelling Zenyatta to 15 wins in the first place.

jdl

[tzipi]

But the point is that Lukas wouldn't have campaigned his horses like this. He's never been a conservative guy, Z would have danced every dance under his coaching.

Oh yeah,no way would he have run this schedule with Zen. He would've surely taken on the boys numerous times already and traveled a bit more too with her I think.

[Relwob Owner]

Exactly what has been stopping all of the "better" horses in the country from going out to Cal and whipping Zenyatta's ass anyway? Couldn't be the polytrack since that appears to be the only thing propelling Zenyatta to 15 wins in the first place.

jdl


Zenyatta is obviously one of the top two females in the country.....what "better horses" are you referring to? If you are referring to males, then your post doesnt make much sense because it is kind of hard for male horses to run in the filly races that Zenyatta keeps hiding, I mean, running in......

[FenceBored]

Exactly what has been stopping all of the "better" horses in the country from going out to Cal and whipping Zenyatta's ass anyway? Couldn't be the polytrack since that appears to be the only thing propelling Zenyatta to 15 wins in the first place.

jdl

The Rocky Mountains.

[tucker6]

The Rocky Mountains.
You know, it wasn't all that long ago when the Rockies were no taller than ~14,000 feet, and you could fly a plane over them without any problems. Heck, there are internet rumors that highways cut through the mountain passes below 10,000 feet. Those were the good ole days I guess. I miss those days. :(

[jonnielu]

Zenyatta is obviously one of the top two females in the country.....what "better horses" are you referring to? If you are referring to males, then your post doesnt make much sense because it is kind of hard for male horses to run in the filly races that Zenyatta keeps hiding, I mean, running in......

I'm referring to all of the "better" horses that the Zenyatta knockers refer to. There is no reason for Zenyatta to run against males except for purse money, and I believe she did that for that reason in the BC.

jdl

[Hanover1]

I fall square in the middle regarding the mare....If/when she wins another BC race, then attitude adjustment is in order for many folks......

[Relwob Owner]

I'm referring to all of the "better" horses that the Zenyatta knockers refer to. There is no reason for Zenyatta to run against males except for purse money, and I believe she did that for that reason in the BC.

jdl


Like I said, which are the "better horses" that the Zenyatta knockers refer to? You used a plural, so I am assuming you are speaking about females other than Rachel? In order to accurately support your point, you must have names of female horses that people say are better than Zenyatta, yet arent coming out to face her....who are they? Like I said, no male horse could come out and face Zenyatta because she hides in races for fillies.

If you dont think that there is a reason to run Zenyatta against males, then you probably dont enjoy the concept of competition in general, which is something that most race fans thrive on.....

[jonnielu]

Like I said, which are the "better horses" that the Zenyatta knockers refer to? You used a plural, so I am assuming you are speaking about females other than Rachel? In order to accurately support your point, you must have names of female horses that people say are better than Zenyatta, yet arent coming out to face her....who are they? Like I said, no male horse could come out and face Zenyatta because she hides in races for fillies.

If you dont think that there is a reason to run Zenyatta against males, then you probably dont enjoy the concept of competition in general, which is something that most race fans thrive on.....

Like I said, you'll have to get the list from the Zenyatta knockers, I don't know of any better horse(s). Like I said also, how are you ducking, if you are racing whoever shows up.

I also said that the only reason to race females against males is for the money. Zenyatta has also done that.

jdl

[Relwob Owner]

Like I said, you'll have to get the list from the Zenyatta knockers, I don't know of any better horse(s). Like I said also, how are you ducking, if you are racing whoever shows up.

I also said that the only reason to race females against males is for the money. Zenyatta has also done that.

jdl

If you think the only reason to run against males is for more money, you are really lacking any sort of competitive spirit with regards to this great game.....
They are always ducking by running in restricted races.....males cant come face her so hiding in those races fits the exact definition of "ducking".

As far as the Zenyatta "knockers", if you cant name the "better horses" they named that dont come out and face Zenyatta, then your post is pointless. I dont think those "knockers" point out other fillies that are better, other than RA. They mainly knock(justifiably so) the fact that she races in soft races(see todays race as an example) and that people engage in absurd hyperbole when they speak about her and her streak, which consists of one race against open company.

[FenceBored]

Like I said also, how are you ducking, if you are racing whoever shows up.


Finally, someone who gets it. Pepper's Pride never ducked anyone.

Power to the Pepper. :ThmbUp:

[jonnielu]

If you think the only reason to run against males is for more money, you are really lacking any sort of competitive spirit with regards to this great game.....
They are always ducking by running in restricted races.....males cant come face her so hiding in those races fits the exact definition of "ducking".

As far as the Zenyatta "knockers", if you cant name the "better horses" they named that dont come out and face Zenyatta, then your post is pointless. I dont think those "knockers" point out other fillies that are better, other than RA. They mainly knock(justifiably so) the fact that she races in soft races(see todays race as an example) and that people engage in absurd hyperbole when they speak about her and her streak, which consists of one race against open company.

Sure, there is a little competitive spirit running around, but, the bigger part of the great game revolves around separating you from your cash. There is no reason for Zenyatta to run against males for the whole year since you will pay extra to see it in November.

jdl

[bisket]

the classic field will be full of cupcakes? so blame is the damater can of the month thats gonna beat zenyatta now?
wooohooo!!! i'm enjoying myself today.....

[Hanover1]

Finally, someone who gets it. Pepper's Pride never ducked anyone.

Power to the Pepper. :ThmbUp:

Except anyone outside of NM.....nice duckin.

[PaceAdvantage]

the only way rachel can take an award from zen this year is if she in fact wins the classic.Absurd. Zenyatta hasn't beaten a thing this year (and if you objectively look at her record, this includes St Trinians).

Rachel hasn't beaten anyone of note either. Thus, I guess one would have to give Zenyatta a slight edge because she's won a bunch of "in name only" Grade 1s.

Rachel has some catching up to do, but to say she has to win the BCC in order to edge out Zenyatta for year end honors is nuts.

[PaceAdvantage]

Sure, there is a little competitive spirit running around, but, the bigger part of the great game revolves around separating you from your cash. There is no reason for Zenyatta to run against males for the whole year since you will pay extra to see it in November.

jdlNobody ever advanced the theory that Zenyatta should run against males all year long.

[jonnielu]

Nobody ever advanced the theory that Zenyatta should run against males all year long.

Maybe I should re-phrase that, like this:

For the entire year, there is no reason for Zenyatta to go out of her way to race against males. Until the BC, the rewards don't cover the effort.

jdl

[depalma113]

Maybe I should re-phrase that, like this:

For the entire year, there is no reason for Zenyatta to go out of her way to race against males. Until the BC, the rewards don't cover the effort.

jdl


Yeah because being the only mare to ever win the Big Cap or the Pacific Classic would have done nothing for her legacy.

[FenceBored]

Except anyone outside of NM.....nice duckin.

To repeat the comment that prompted my response:
"how are you ducking, if you are racing whoever shows up."
By that token Pepper's Pride didn't duck anyone. She faced whoever entered the gate with her, and beat them.

[Hanover1]

To repeat the comment that prompted my response:
"how are you ducking, if you are racing whoever shows up."
By that token Pepper's Pride didn't duck anyone. She faced whoever entered the gate with her, and beat them.

Failure to load on a van or whatever to engage in competition at the top of the sport is ducking......a big fish in a small pond is easily seen. A big fish in a big pond has lots of big fish with it.....

[FenceBored]

Failure to load on a van or whatever to engage in competition at the top of the sport is ducking......a big fish in a small pond is easily seen. A big fish in a big pond has lots of big fish with it.....

Agreed, Zenyatta is ducking by staying in the small pond of So. Cal. racing just as much as Pepper's Pride was ducking by staying in NM Bred company.

[OTM Al]

I'm still waiting for the explanation of why this is a catch 22 situation. Such would imply a logical impossibility. Being undefeated and facing quality fields is not a logical impossibility, just something very hard to do.

[chickenhead]

Agreed, Zenyatta is ducking by staying in the small pond of So. Cal. racing just as much as Pepper's Pride was ducking by staying in NM Bred company.

sometimes I think people pro and con Zenyatta are having some kind of competition for who can say the goofiest things.

Leaving any other Gr. 1 races out of it -- a horse who had done nothing else in their career but win the Apple Blossom twice and the BC Classic and Distaff (on any surface imaginable) does not belong in the same sentence as a horse that never left New Mexico.

They are both undefeated, that is were comparisons end. It's a strange thing that the fact that Zenyatta is undefeated is actually what gets her compared to Peppers Pride by some people. If she had run the exact same schedule and lost twice, say in two of those SoCal Gr 1 small pond races, it would never even occur to anyone to make that comparison -- because it would be ridiculous to compare a horse like Zenyatta to a horse like Peppers Pride.

[Audioslavery]

This horse still looked as beautiful yesterday as she ever has, she's absolutely ready for Fall. Bring on the colts!

BTW, I don't understand all the dirt+Zenyatta=loss logic. Her easiest race this year was at the Apple Blossom against those Kentucky Oaks horses. She flew to the front with no urging on at all and hand rode to a big win. If anything, the Hirsch showed that she runs much better on dirt than the Del Mar synthetic by the way she pulled away in the Apple Blossom.

[FenceBored]

sometimes I think people pro and con Zenyatta are having some kind of competition for who can say the goofiest things.

Leaving any other Gr. 1 races out of it -- a horse who had done nothing else in their career but win the Apple Blossom twice and the BC Classic and Distaff (on any surface imaginable) does not belong in the same sentence as a horse that never left New Mexico.

They are both undefeated, that is were comparisons end. It's a strange thing that the fact that Zenyatta is undefeated is actually what gets her compared to Peppers Pride by some people. If she had run the exact same schedule and lost twice, say in two of those SoCal Gr 1 small pond races, it would never even occur to anyone to make that comparison -- because it would be ridiculous to compare a horse like Zenyatta to a horse like Peppers Pride.

If we were talking about things that float and someone said it was somehow magical to get an aircraft carrier to float because it's metal, and I pointed out a sauce pan will float in the kitchen sink and it's metal, I am not saying that the sauce pan is an aircraft carrier, or that an aircraft carrier is a sauce pan (that would form a real recursion problem if you had a sauce pan floating in the sink aboard an aircraft carrier).

And for the record, Zenyatta doesn't weigh the same as a duck, thus she is not made of wood, and therefore ... not a witch.

As to the point that if Zenyatta wasn't undefeated noone would be comparing her to Pepper's Pride, well, of course not. If Zenyatta weren't undefeated then there wouldn't be people saying that her undefeated status means she's the best that ever was. If there weren't people saying that merely being undefeated makes one great, there wouldn't need for there to be other people pointing out that while being undefeated is a fine thing, that by itself doesn't make one great (hence the introduction of PP into the discussion).

[chickenhead]

If there weren't people saying that merely being undefeated makes one great, there wouldn't need for there to be other people pointing out that while being undefeated is a fine thing, that by itself doesn't make one great (hence the introduction of PP into the discussion).

I didn't see anyone making that argument in this thread, and I didn't actually see that as being your rebuttal.

You said:

"Zenyatta is ducking just as much as Peppers Pride"

Zenyatta has, if only once, run against G1 open company, monster purse, open to all comers -- something 99.99% of all mares, and probably roughly the same percentage of boys in this country will never do. Which alone makes her schedule less like Peppers Pride than 99.99% of all other horses. She's spent the rest of her time in high purse G1 F&M races, open to half the horse population. Peppers Pride spent her entire career running in races open to probably 0.1% of the worst part of the horse population.

Her schedule does not resemble in any way shape or form when it comes to restrictions, anything about Peppers Pride's. Please don't take that as an argument that Zenyattas schedule has been strong or difficult this year -- just running any kind of races, at any circuit, at any level, is going to give a horse a schedule that is much less restricted than NM bred.

The "All time greats record against competition makes Zenyattas look weak" is pretty accurate and tough for anyone to argue against. But the "Peppers Pride and Zenyatta have tons in common" argument is borderline retarded.

[FenceBored]

I didn't see anyone making that argument in this thread, and I didn't actually see that as being your rebuttal.

You said:

"Zenyatta is ducking just as much as Peppers Pride"

Zenyatta has, if only once, run against G1 open company, monster purse, open to all comers -- something 99.99% of all mares, and probably roughly the same percentage of boys in this country will never do. Which alone makes her schedule less like Peppers Pride than 99.99% of all other horses. She's spent the rest of her time in high purse G1 F&M races, open to half the horse population. Peppers Pride spent her entire career running in races open to probably 0.1% of the worst part of the horse population.

Her schedule does not resemble in any way shape or form when it comes to restrictions, anything about Peppers Pride's. Please don't take that as an argument that Zenyattas schedule has been strong or difficult this year -- just running any kind of races, at any circuit, at any level, is going to give a horse a schedule that is much less restricted than NM bred.

The "All time greats record against competition makes Zenyattas look weak" is pretty accurate and tough for anyone to argue against. But the "Peppers Pride and Zenyatta have tons in common" argument is borderline retarded.

So, a little leaguer and a MLB World Series MVP can't have a "tons in common" because the MVP has done something (play in the World Series) that 99.9% of all little leaguers won't do? They can't both be the 2nd of 5 children to a now divorced couple, born in the same area of their country, receive the same type of early training, lead their leauges in RBIs, both have error free seasons, can't both suffer the same injury from a miscaught fly ball?

I refuse to accept that there are rareified types whose accomplishments place them so far out of the realm of the rest of the world that any attempted comparison between them and their less exalted fellows is "borderline retarded."

Secretariat and Zippy Chippy both had their shoes put on one at a time.

[tucker6]

Secretariat and Zippy Chippy both had their shoes put on one at a time.
Can you prove this?? ;)

[FenceBored]

Can you prove this?? ;)

Hmm, I suppose someone could use a hoist so that two of the horse's legs are off the ground at the same time...

No, I guess I can't state it with 100% certainty. :blush:

[thaskalos]

I refuse to accept that there are rareified types whose accomplishments place them so far out of the realm of the rest of the world that any attempted comparison between them and their less exalted fellows is "borderline retarded."

Secretariat and Zippy Chippy both had their shoes put on one at a time. If comparing Zenyatta to Peppers Pride is permissible - as far as you are concerned...why is it so offensive to you, to hear people compare Zenyatta to Secretariat?

[tucker6]

If comparing Zenyatta to Peppers Pride is permissible - as far as you are concerned...why is it so offensive to you, to hear people compare Zenyatta to Secretariat?
I'm sorry, but for many of us, it's not even a question that should be asked without snickering. She's a good horse. BUT... she hasn't faced any quality competition (outside the BCC and that was on her surface not theirs); she hasn't been named HOY for two years running for a reason; she doesn't set fast times or come close to records; her connections don't challenge her in any way. On and on and on.

I'm sorry, what was that about Secretariat again??

[FenceBored]

If comparing Zenyatta with Peppers Pride is permissible - as far as you are concerned...why is it so offensive to you to hear people compare Zenyatta to Secretariat?

:confused: Have I ever said it was? Have at it, as far as I'm concerned. Now if your conclusion is that she's better than Secretariat I might have to disagree with you (depends on the case you can put forward), but compare away.

This idea that you can't compare horse X to horse Y coming from people who choose to pursue an activity where they're comparing horse K to horses L, M, N, O, and P (and if they're lucky a Q, R, S, and T) all day long is baffling to me.

[thaskalos]

I'm sorry, but for many of us, it's not even a question that should be asked without snickering. She's a good horse. BUT... she hasn't faced any quality competition (outside the BCC and that was on her surface not theirs); she hasn't been named HOY for two years running for a reason; she doesn't set fast times or come close to records; her connections don't challenge her in any way. On and on and on.

I'm sorry, what was that about Secretariat again?? Don't pretend to me, that you have trouble comprehending what people say; I have gotten to know you better than that...

My question was...if it's OK to compare Zenyatta to Peppers Pride...why is it considered blasphemy to compare Zenyatta to Secretariat?

[chickenhead]

So, a little leaguer and a MLB World Series MVP can't have a "tons in common" because the MVP has done something (play in the World Series) that 99.9% of all little leaguers won't do? They can't both be the 2nd of 5 children to a now divorced couple, born in the same area of their country, receive the same type of early training, lead their leauges in RBIs, both have error free seasons, can't both suffer the same injury from a miscaught fly ball?

I refuse to accept that there are rareified types whose accomplishments place them so far out of the realm of the rest of the world that any attempted comparison between them and their less exalted fellows is "borderline retarded."

Secretariat and Zippy Chippy both had their shoes put on one at a time.

This is pure awesomeness. Yes, they are both horses, they probably both like peppermints, and I hear they both have crushes on Leonardo Di Caprio. If I had known that that is what you meant, I wouldn't have said anything.

[tucker6]

Don't pretend to me, that you have trouble comprehending what people say; I have gotten to know you better than that...

My question was...if it's OK to compare Zenyatta to Peppers Pride...why is it considered blasphemy to compare Zenyatta to Secretariat?A straight answer is that I for one believe Zenyatta is closer to Peppers Pride in greatest than Secretariat.

[chickenhead]

This idea that you can't compare horse X to horse Y coming from people who choose to pursue an activity where they're comparing horse K to horses L, M, N, O, and P (and if they're lucky a Q, R, S, and T) all day long is baffling to me.

I never said you can't, I said it was borderline retarded to actually argue repeatedly in public that the schedules of a horse that never ran against anything but New Mexico bred fillies is remarkably similiar to a horse that has won the Breeders Cup Classic.

Yes, by all means you can compare Zippy Chippy to Secretariat. No one ever does so (or has, until just now, you've broken new ground here), because it would be borderline retarded thing to do. But it can be done, and you end up with "they're both horses".

[FenceBored]

I never said you can't, I said it was borderline retarded to actually argue repeatedly in public that the schedules of a horse that never ran against anything but New Mexico bred fillies is remarkably similiar to a horse that has won the Breeders Cup Classic.

Yes, by all means you can compare Zippy Chippy to Secretariat. No one ever does so (or has, until just now, you've broken new ground here), because it would be borderline retarded thing to do. But it can be done, and you end up with "they're both horses".

And I suppose you sit there, looking at pps and say: "This trainer can't be trying the same cut back move with this claimer he did successfully with that Graded stakes horse last month, cause seeing any similarity between these horses would be borderline retarded."

I guess you must think a lot of the stats you see in the DRF or Brisnet PPs are "borderline retarded." They're trying to find similarities and patterns between horses with disparate racing records. :eek:

[Tom]

Yes, by all means you can compare Zippy Chippy to Secretariat.

I was on the rail that night at Batavia Downs, when Zippy came roaring down the stretch with that 3yo pacing filly squarely in his sights. He was moving like a tremendous gadget. It was breathtaking. And he never even got a Beyer.:(

[bks]

tucker6 wrote:

A straight answer is that I for one believe Zenyatta is closer to Peppers Pride in greatest than Secretariat.

enough said about you

[MNslappy]

He was moving like a tremendous gadget.

:ThmbUp::ThmbUp::ThmbUp:

:D holy bleepin god that made me laugh out loud