Senate President Committed to Horse Racing in New Jersey

[David-LV]

Senate President committed to horse racing in New Jersey
Thursday, August 05, 2010 - from Harness Tracks of America

Tucson, AZ --- The Newark Star-Ledger, the state’s largest newspaper, reported this morning that the state’s top Democrat, Senate President Steve Sweeney, said he was committed to keep horse racing at the Meadowlands and Monmouth Park.

The story, by the paper’s Statehouse Bureau reporter Matt Friedman, said Sweeney had accused the governor of “abandoning” the state’s horse racing industry. Sweeney was quoted as saying, “We have to find a way to keep the tracks open. The governor basically said if they die, they die. I think that’s too flippant a statement.”

The Sweeney pronouncement, while encouraging, does not mean he will support slots at the tracks or the Atlantic City casino subsidies. He made that clear, saying, “I think it’s extremely important that we find a way to make sure there are no losers in this.”

Sweeney’s co-chairman of Friday's gaming summit, State Senator Jim Whelan, a former longtime mayor of Atlantic City, was less conciliatory. He dismissed the possible end of horse racing in the state as “what happens in a capitalist society,” but added, “I don’t want to be hostile to the racing industry.”

The all-Democrat gaming summit in Atlantic City Friday drew criticism from Republicans, including the governor, who was not pleased with Sweeney’s criticism.

Meanwhile, it turns out Christie’s special commission chair Jon Hanson kept no minutes of six months of discussions.

_________

David-LV

[redshift1]

"Meanwhile, it turns out Christie’s special commission chair Jon Hanson kept no minutes of six months of discussions."

That's never a good sign makes you wonder what was going on. No records no accountability.

[Stillriledup]

Senate President committed to horse racing in New Jersey
Thursday, August 05, 2010 - from Harness Tracks of America

Tucson, AZ --- The Newark Star-Ledger, the state’s largest newspaper, reported this morning that the state’s top Democrat, Senate President Steve Sweeney, said he was committed to keep horse racing at the Meadowlands and Monmouth Park.

The story, by the paper’s Statehouse Bureau reporter Matt Friedman, said Sweeney had accused the governor of “abandoning” the state’s horse racing industry. Sweeney was quoted as saying, “We have to find a way to keep the tracks open. The governor basically said if they die, they die. I think that’s too flippant a statement.”

The Sweeney pronouncement, while encouraging, does not mean he will support slots at the tracks or the Atlantic City casino subsidies. He made that clear, saying, “I think it’s extremely important that we find a way to make sure there are no losers in this.”

Sweeney’s co-chairman of Friday's gaming summit, State Senator Jim Whelan, a former longtime mayor of Atlantic City, was less conciliatory. He dismissed the possible end of horse racing in the state as “what happens in a capitalist society,” but added, “I don’t want to be hostile to the racing industry.”

The all-Democrat gaming summit in Atlantic City Friday drew criticism from Republicans, including the governor, who was not pleased with Sweeney’s criticism.

Meanwhile, it turns out Christie’s special commission chair Jon Hanson kept no minutes of six months of discussions.

_________

David-LV





This just in (to Mr Whelan). You're being hostile to the racing industry.

[Robert Goren]

Just where does Mr Sweeney think he is going to get the money to keep Meadowlands open? I really don't think that very many taxpayers are willing foot bill anymore like they have the last few years. Those days are over. I know if I was running for office I would like nothing more than to run against somebody who voted for a tax subsidy for a racetrack.

[Tom]

Any track that cannot pay its own way should be closed. ANY track.
Tracks getting taxpayer money just take away from them paying for billionaire's football stadiums and ball parks.

[Stillriledup]

Any track that cannot pay its own way should be closed. ANY track.
Tracks getting taxpayer money just take away from them paying for billionaire's football stadiums and ball parks.

The money they're getting is only because of no slots. The M was just fine and dandy for many years, but when the neighboring states got slots, it was all downhill after that.

If the M had slots, they would have no problem paying their bills.

[Hanover1]

The money they're getting is only because of no slots. The M was just fine and dandy for many years, but when the neighboring states got slots, it was all downhill after that.

If the M had slots, they would have no problem paying their bills.

.....until the slot industry (Christy) is weary of supporting an industry that has no viable return for THEM, and NOT the horsemen.
I seldom keep an employee that cannot produce...its a waste of the money I earn. They see it the same way.

[Hanover1]

The money they're getting is only because of no slots. The M was just fine and dandy for many years, but when the neighboring states got slots, it was all downhill after that.

If the M had slots, they would have no problem paying their bills.

And AC claims it cannot pay the bills if it continues sharing the pie with M, either by subsidy or allowing slots at M. How is this not clear to everyone that claims slots will save the track.
Don't rely on voter sentiment either...we all know how that turns out at times :rolleyes:

[affirmedny]

It's so stupid to say the taxpayers are subsidizing NJ racing:

1) The casinos paid the purse subsidy.

2) The State gets 2-3 percent of the total handle OFF THE TOP. Meadowlands will handle more than 200-300 million this year. Monmouth will handle 300 Million in the 50 days. That's 12 million conservatively, real number is probably closer to 20 million not including taxes on admission, programs, concessions etc. Is it asking too much to have them use some of this income to support an industry that's made them a fortune over the past 35 years. Of course it isn't.

If the state sells to a private owner they should give up their share of the handle. They have no interest in the business, right? Let's see if THAT happens.

[Stillriledup]

And AC claims it cannot pay the bills if it continues sharing the pie with M, either by subsidy or allowing slots at M. How is this not clear to everyone that claims slots will save the track.
Don't rely on voter sentiment either...we all know how that turns out at times :rolleyes:

"AC" is just some 'company'. Its amazing how a company can prevent another company from trying to help themselves get better.

In fact, the state is so in bed with this one company, that they're willing to let thousands or tens of thousands of their residents leave the state and give revenue to neighboring states companies when they could keep that revenue in the state.

Think of all the money the state of NJ would make if there were slots (or, god forbid, a full blown casino) at the M?

[Robert Goren]

There may or may not be case for a casino in north jersey, but it is pretty hard to make case for one with a money losing race track attached.

[lamboguy]

casino's and slot parlor's are as non-productive as the world gets. the amount of money that they take in compared to the amount of money they pay out for jobs and taxes to the state is astounding if the places are run right.

there is always going to be a fine line between capitalism and protecting the public. this is specifically what we have here in the gambling business. the gambling business has hit the economice law of 'diminishing return". that is not unlike almost everything that is going on in the world. the whole gambling business is non-productive no matter how you look at it. horse's, slots, lottery's, bingo and whatever. but people do want it, and who's to say that you shouldn't let people gamble if they want to. or business open up to satisfy those needs.
if you ask me the food supply is alot worse and adds to sickness and disease and government does nothing about it. remember that we do not live in a perfect world, and government is run by people that have flawed characteristics.

getting back to slots and racetracks, i can't believe that if someone owns a racetrack that they have a right to have slot machines in the current forms of government licenses. why should they have them and the guy that runs the convenience store down the street not get a license? are the people that own and run racetracks more worthy of obtaining these licenses than the convenience store owner? in my mind they are less worthy because they have already proven that they don't know how to run a gambling business. why reward them for mediocrity?

[Robert Goren]

Well stated.

[Vinman]

There may or may not be case for a casino in north jersey, but it is pretty hard to make case for one with a money losing race track attached.

So you would then close ANY racetrack with a casino attached, whether it be the Meadowlands, if one were built, Yonkers, Monticello, Saratoga, Chester, Delaware Park, etc. After all, they ALL lose money.

Why pick on the Meadowlands? If they had a full casino they would CRUSH Yonkers and earn mega millions for the state.....yes, even with the losing racing operation. Just ask the folks at Charlestown, regarded as the most profitable Racino in the Country. Would you close their racing too?

As I was turning into the Lincoln Tunnel from 11th Ave yesterday, I noticed a 100 foot tall ad on a building for Sands Bethlehem...."Now with Live Table Games". Next time I go by it I should snap a photo of it with my cell phone and send it to Christie & Sweeney. With my GPS I clocked an hour & 20 to Bethlehem, hour & 50 to Aycee from the Jersey side of the tunnel......a savings of an hour per round trip for Bethlehem under normal conditions, without even considering Aycee delays due to Jersey Shore traffic. No one of sound mind will do an Aycee trip that involves a Sunday evening return on the GSP. Route 78 east on a Sunday night from Bethlehem.....piece of cake.

Oh, almost forgot....driving time from Jersey side of Lincoln Tunnel to The Meadowlands.....10 minutes. Take that, Bethlehem.

Vinman

[Robert Goren]

I don't have a problem with closing all racinos. They were a bad idea from the start. It is only a matter of time before they figure out a way to get rid of the racing part of their business. We saw an attempt in Iowa to that this year with dog tracks. It failed only because the amount of money offered to the state wasn't enough. They will try again and eventually come up with a right amount. Then the hand writing will be on the wall for racinos everywhere. Race tracks need to become a stand alone profitable business to survive. I just don't get why some people have trouble seeing that.

[alhattab]

It's so stupid to say the taxpayers are subsidizing NJ racing:

1) The casinos paid the purse subsidy.

2) The State gets 2-3 percent of the total handle OFF THE TOP. Meadowlands will handle more than 200-300 million this year. Monmouth will handle 300 Million in the 50 days. That's 12 million conservatively, real number is probably closer to 20 million not including taxes on admission, programs, concessions etc. Is it asking too much to have them use some of this income to support an industry that's made them a fortune over the past 35 years. Of course it isn't.

If the state sells to a private owner they should give up their share of the handle. They have no interest in the business, right? Let's see if THAT happens.

Does the state really get 2-3%? I thought the state take was something like 0.5%. I'm making a distinction here between the state and the track which uses part of the rake for operating costs. It's been awhile since I've seen a takeout breakdown (I believe the Form used to publish them) but thought that the 2-3% type levies went the way of the dinosaur.

They can keep these tracks open without some kind of alternate financing, but Mth will become Emerald Downs east and Club Med will become Freehold north albeit over a mile track.

[David-LV]

I don't have a problem with closing all racinos. They were a bad idea from the start. It is only a matter of time before they figure out a way to get rid of the racing part of their business. We saw an attempt in Iowa to that this year with dog tracks. It failed only because the amount of money offered to the state wasn't enough. They will try again and eventually come up with a right amount. Then the hand writing will be on the wall for racinos everywhere. Race tracks need to become a stand alone profitable business to survive. I just don't get why some people have trouble seeing that.

I gather from your remarks that New York State should abandoned their efforts for slots at Aqueduct and let New York racing die a slow death because they are also losing money.

Robert, why this animosity towards New Jersey Racing? You have not said one positive thing and take every opportunity to knock any good news from not only New Jersey but racing anywhere.

I know things are hard for you, but sometimes when people wake up with a positive attitude and see the bright side, good things start happening.

Try it, you might get to like it.:):)

________
David-LV

[Robert Goren]

I do not support slots at Aqueduct or any other race tracks. They and all other race tracks including ones in NJ need to do what they have to become self sufficient. As I have stated over and over again, there is no way to do it without drastically cutting takeout rates. Admit it you don't believe that horse racing can become a viable stand alone business no matter what they do and can only survive by leaching off some other enterprise. I do not. But I will agree that the business model that is being used by race tracks today (including racinos) will cause horse racing to slowly die. An overpriced product always leads to fewer and fewer customers. Again admit it you really don't believe that cutting current takeout rates in half will more than increase handles to where race tracks to where they will become profitable. I do. You want want race tracks to become total dependent on outside revenue (either government or government mandated). I do not.

[Robert Goren]

There is nothing positive about the taxpayers of NJ having to ante up about 20 million dollars to keep the Meadowlands and Monmouth Park running. All the "positive" moves that Monmouth Park made this year resulted in it losing more money than it lost last year. I will wake up less grumpy when someone in horse racing actually does something that I think will contribute to the long term health of the industry. That is not happening anywhere in horse racing today.

[David-LV]

There is nothing positive about the taxpayers of NJ having to ante up about 20 million dollars to keep the Meadowlands and Monmouth Park running. All the "positive" moves that Monmouth Park made this year resulted in it losing more money than it lost last year. I will wake up less grumpy when someone in horse racing actually does something that I think will contribute to the long term health of the industry. That is not happening anywhere in horse racing today.

Am I missing something here?

How is this 20 million dollars of taxpayers money when it is coming from casinos that are private companies that made a financial deal with New Jersey racetracks not to compete?

Just because the state is the middleman, it is the not taxpayers money it is the private casinos in Atlantic City's money.

_________
David-LV

[Robert Goren]

How is this 20 million dollars of taxpayers money when it is coming from casinos that are private companies that made a financial deal with New Jersey racetracks not to compete?

_________
David-LVThat is 20 million dollars loss for the Meadowlands and Monmouth Park is over and above the the 30 million that Monmouth Park got from the casinos. Have you been too busy hyping the NJ race tracks to keep with what is actually going on there? Next time check your facts before you question my numbers please.

[David-LV]

That is 20 million dollars loss for the Meadowlands and Monmouth Park is over and above the the 30 million that Monmouth Park got from the casinos. Have you been too busy hyping the NJ race tracks to keep with what is actually going on there? Next time check your facts before you question my numbers please.

Where does the taxpayers money come into play and where are you getting your numbers from.

Hundreds of millions were taken out of the tracks by the state since 1981 to fund other projects, so on balance the tracks don't owe the taxpayers anything.

BTW: I will hype anything that I am making a profit at, it is called the American Way.
_______
David-LV

[Robert Goren]

There have been ton of links in almost every thread on Monmouth Park recently posted by me and other members. I am quite frank tired of looking it up and reposting it every time one of you question my numbers. If you are making money there, good for you, but NJ taxpayers are not. There are some people like you(and me)who are feeding in the trough being subsidized by taxpayers and/or other forms of gambling. Just don't expect it to go on forever. I love this game and would like to see it go on for very long time, but I do not believe that will happen if it doesn't become profitable. It doesn't matter if it is in NJ or someplace else. The only thing I have against NJ racing is they had one time shot of outside of money and refused to do what they need to to save racing there and blew it by throwing it away on purses. I firmly believe that if Monmouth Park and the Meadowlands had cut their takeout rates in half this year, they would be fine shape going into next year. But they didn't and they aren't. Apparently you think that increase purses are the way to go. I do not. I don't know exactly what an increase dollars in purses yields in increased takeout money to the track, but it is most certainly less than a dollar. The more race tracks spend in purse money, the more they lose.

[Robert Goren]

Where does the taxpayers money come into play and where are you getting your numbers from.

Hundreds of millions were taken out of the tracks by the state since 1981 to fund other projects, so on balance the tracks don't owe the taxpayers anything.

BTW: I will hype anything that I am making a profit at, it is called the American Way.
_______
David-LV It is true that until some time about 1990 states made money from having racing as they should with any form of gambling. My point is that unless racing changes the way it operates that will never happen again. I also believe if state can not get money to provide tax relief from any form of gambling then I believe that there is no point in having it. That is the way it is always sold when they are trying legalize it. If you live in Vegas, you know tax rates are way lower than we have in Nebraska because you have casinos and we do not. For the record I support having casinos here and worked on several unsuccessful petition drives to legalize them even though I probably would not spend very much time in one.

[alhattab]

Where does the taxpayers money come into play and where are you getting your numbers from.

Hundreds of millions were taken out of the tracks by the state since 1981 to fund other projects, so on balance the tracks don't owe the taxpayers anything.

BTW: I will hype anything that I am making a profit at, it is called the American Way.
_______
David-LV

David you are starting to sound like the guys from the Blood-Horse. Any money siphoned from the casinos and diverted to racing at the direction of the state is taxpayer money in that those funds could just as easily be used for other social or tax reduction purposes. Only in jurisdictions where the racetrack operator gets casino license and decides on his/her own to divert some of those funds to racing would these funds not be taxpayer dollars or subsidies. So NJ, PA, DE, NY, IA, FL (I believe), LA, ON and I suppose a few others engage in this practice.

Hopefully someday the taxpayers will wake up to this and demand that the casino taxes currently diverted to horses are diverted to more useful purposes like state income or property tax reduction. Of course, the citizenry can state that open space used by the racing industry is important enough to divert casino taxes to this cause, but only then should the industry be supported by these tax revenues.

[castaway01]

There is nothing positive about the taxpayers of NJ having to ante up about 20 million dollars to keep the Meadowlands and Monmouth Park running. All the "positive" moves that Monmouth Park made this year resulted in it losing more money than it lost last year. I will wake up less grumpy when someone in horse racing actually does something that I think will contribute to the long term health of the industry. That is not happening anywhere in horse racing today.

1) So all the years the state was MAKING money from these tracks that was going into state coffers, that was okay, but the minute that this business loses money the tracks should be shut down?

2) These are businesses that the state runs. Look at them as businesses---Is this how you advocate every single business be run? Rather than change your marketing, product, packaging, advertising....just close immediately? That's a brilliant plan.

3) I don't know how many times you've written about the poor taxpayers being hurt by this $20 million loss. Aside from the fact that these are state agencies and there a million others spending more money, do you realize the size of the state budget in New Jersey? The one just passed is $29.4 BILLION. So that $20 million is .00068% of the state budget. Yes, what a travesty.

4) Viewed another way, do you realize that even if tax dollars were somehow directly paying for the racetracks and if the money wasn't balanced by 100 other state agencies, do you understand that $20 million is slightly more than $2 for every person in the state. You keep talking about the rape of the taxpayer in a state you have no clue about (as you've shown repeatedly)...it's $2 a person. Two dollars.

5) And of course that's forgetting the tracks should have casinos anyway, because we know that offends your delicate sensibilities.

I know you'll just post the same BS 1000 more times as this is your pet cause, but I hope someone reads the actual facts I've posted and considers them the next time you do.

[onefast99]

It is true that until some time about 1990 states made money from having racing as they should with any form of gambling. My point is that unless racing changes the way it operates that will never happen again. I also believe if state can not get money to provide tax relief from any form of gambling then I believe that there is no point in having it. That is the way it is always sold when they are trying legalize it. If you live in Vegas, you know tax rates are way lower than we have in Nebraska because you have casinos and we do not. For the record I support having casinos here and worked on several unsuccessful petition drives to legalize them even though I probably would not spend very much time in one.
I understand your thinking on the NJ horse racing issue, but remember that the tracks came first and the casinos came 2nd. Based on that the tracks do have some clout and they will not go away without a fight. NJ is going thru a lot of changes, the Governor is trying to appease everyone but unfortuneately he listened to a commission that was biased towards the casinos and based upon what is being said on the backside at MP it looks as if Mr Christi has reached out to someone who is very knowledgeable about the horse industry in NJ and has requested that this individual come up with a plan to save racing in the state.

[affirmedny]

David you are starting to sound like the guys from the Blood-Horse. Any money siphoned from the casinos and diverted to racing at the direction of the state is taxpayer money in that those funds could just as easily be used for other social or tax reduction purposes. Only in jurisdictions where the racetrack operator gets casino license and decides on his/her own to divert some of those funds to racing would these funds not be taxpayer dollars or subsidies. So NJ, PA, DE, NY, IA, FL (I believe), LA, ON and I suppose a few others engage in this practice.

Hopefully someday the taxpayers will wake up to this and demand that the casino taxes currently diverted to horses are diverted to more useful purposes like state income or property tax reduction. Of course, the citizenry can state that open space used by the racing industry is important enough to divert casino taxes to this cause, but only then should the industry be supported by these tax revenues.

The purse subsidy was NOT money that was going to the state as taxes. It was a payment to the tracks in return for not pushing for slots. If it didn't go to the tracks it was staying in the casino's pocket.

[alhattab]

The purse subsidy was NOT money that was going to the state as taxes. It was a payment to the tracks in return for not pushing for slots. If it didn't go to the tracks it was staying in the casino's pocket.

Agreed. But it just as well could have gone to the state. The state took from one pocket under its control and gave to another. Not much different than what the state (at least NJ) does to its people via taxes. This is the distinction to me.

It is one thing if Charlie Cella loves racing so much that he wants to take some dough from his instant racing machines and plow them into racing. But it is quite another when the state as owners of the tracks shakes down private business, but businesses firmly under the state's yoke, to prop up a business. The state could have just as easily taken the same $20 million/year and reduced people's taxes, etc. It is the state that took the money and that brokered the deal. In other words, the tracks are the state in this case.

By the way, I looked for some info on NJ's pari mutuel tax but had a hard time finding anything.

[Robert Goren]

I have not heard one of the Monmouth Park supporters tell me why they should not try cutting the takeout in half. Why not try that before you go robbing the casinos again or turning it to another sleaze bag racino. Every place they have tried cutting takeout rates on a small scale, it has increased revenue. It is long past time to try it on a big scale. Now that is a plan I can get behind. What have they got to lose?

[Robert Goren]

Agreed. But it just as well could have gone to the state. The state took from one pocket under its control and gave to another. Not much different than what the state (at least NJ) does to its people via taxes. This is the distinction to me.

It is one thing if Charlie Cella loves racing so much that he wants to take some dough from his instant racing machines and plow them into racing. But it is quite another when the state as owners of the tracks shakes down private business, but businesses firmly under the state's yoke, to prop up a business. The state could have just as easily taken the same $20 million/year and reduced people's taxes, etc. It is the state that took the money and that brokered the deal. In other words, the tracks are the state in this case.

By the way, I looked for some info on NJ's pari mutuel tax but had a hard time finding anything.That because the race tracks are owned by the state so there is none. But even in states that have privately owned race tracks, it is very low or they have none at all. Here in Nebraska they did away with it 20 years ago.

[njcurveball]

That because the race tracks are owned by the state so there is none.

Freehold and Atlantic City Race Course are not owned by the state.

[alhattab]

Freehold and Atlantic City Race Course are not owned by the state.

What is the pari mutuel tax on those tracks? Is it different from Meadowlands and Monmouth?

[Robert Goren]

Freehold and Atlantic City Race Course are not owned by the state. :eek: I stand corrected. I did find this on the internet.

http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2010/tables/10s0437.xls

It says that NJ received no tax revenue from parimutuel wagering on horse racing in 2006. There are some states that recieve less 1% to run operate their racing commissions. Nebraska is one of those. I have previous stated they had done away with it entirely. I was wrong. In 2006 Nebraska recieved about 300k from that tax.

[Stillriledup]

Very good writeup by Tom Luchento, President of the SBOA in NJ.


http://www.harnesslink.com/www/Article.cgi?ID=82719

[alhattab]

I think the Luchento write up is testimony given at the "gaming summit (democrats only please!)" in Atlantic City. It is good to see that the hypocrisy of Harrah's is getting discussed more widely. Hopefully this gets a more complete hearing- I don't think there is a reasonable answer to the question Luchento says remains unanswered.

[onefast99]

Agreed. But it just as well could have gone to the state. The state took from one pocket under its control and gave to another. Not much different than what the state (at least NJ) does to its people via taxes. This is the distinction to me.

It is one thing if Charlie Cella loves racing so much that he wants to take some dough from his instant racing machines and plow them into racing. But it is quite another when the state as owners of the tracks shakes down private business, but businesses firmly under the state's yoke, to prop up a business. The state could have just as easily taken the same $20 million/year and reduced people's taxes, etc. It is the state that took the money and that brokered the deal. In other words, the tracks are the state in this case.

By the way, I looked for some info on NJ's pari mutuel tax but had a hard time finding anything.
This is an incorrect statement, the NJSEA had the right to put vlt's at both the Meadowlands and MP(referendum needed). The casinos and the NJSEA came up with and devised a plan where the monies that the casinos felt would be lost due to these vlt's at the tracks would be given to the racing industry as a payment not to put the vlt's in operation at these racing facilities. In 2008 the casinos began to see a huge revenue decline due to many factors, such as competition from neighboring states and the economy itself. At that point the casinos decided amongst themselves that there would be no more payments after 2010 to the racing industry.

[alhattab]

This is an incorrect statement, the NJSEA had the right to put vlt's at both the Meadowlands and MP(referendum needed). The casinos and the NJSEA came up with and devised a plan where the monies that the casinos felt would be lost due to these vlt's at the tracks would be given to the racing industry as a payment not to put the vlt's in operation at these racing facilities. In 2008 the casinos began to see a huge revenue decline due to many factors, such as competition from neighboring states and the economy itself. At that point the casinos decided amongst themselves that there would be no more payments after 2010 to the racing industry.

Right.

Did you see that the casinos want to take the racing industry tax and divert it to the AC Convention and Visitors Authority? See 3d to last paragraph on p.2

http://www.app.com/article/20100806/NEWS03/100806125/Tempers-erupt-as-Democrats-consider-future-of-NJ-casinos-tracks-

[Robert Goren]

For all the people who I am just negative. I am not. If I thought for a second that NJ race tracks could become self sufficient I'd be on board. I just hate the way that making a track a racino destroys the track. I would rather see it torn down than turn into the garbage heap that the race track part of almost all racinos become. A couple of racinos have done right by their race tracks, but most haven't. If you could get Oaklawn Park to run your Racino, I could probably accept that, but you are going to Penn National or one of their ilk, the answer is noway. Anyway at best, Racinos in a place like NJ are a very short answer as more and more place get casinos without race tracks, their profits will dry up and the pressure to drop a money losers like Race tracks will become too much to overcome or they must might shut down entirely. I know everyone thinks slots are a license to print money, but 1980 everyone thought the same thing about race tracks. By 1990 everyone had stopped believing that and by 2000 some race tracks had already closed and it was an industry in trouble everywhere.

[onefast99]

Here is the real issue...

It's unacceptable to support one economic region against another," Sarlo said.

This is a problem that will have to be negotiated between the two sides, or the North vs the South in this case. The Meadowlands is an ideal place for a casino and the racing industry embraces this idea along with the people of NJ for such a casino. The AC problems are more than just the safety of the people who frequent the town, it is at this point over populated with casinos that cannot compete for the gambling dollars due to the fact those dollars are very limited. Creating a family themed environment in AC is just all smoke and mirrors unless you lower the gambling age. If an attempt to create a safety zone is made the people who are living in that area will want a lot of money for their properties, or use stall tactics to stay in those properties thus creating an endless time frame for the completion of this project. At this point Christi hasn't heard all sides, once he does this attempted take-over of AC will be his demise.

[lamboguy]

good points brian.

first of all before slots were legalized in any state, if you ran slots out of your house it was against the law, same thing as numbers games. the state would raid you take away your machines, fine you and maybe stick you in jail if they could get away with it. i got arrested in 1972 for playing in an illegal poker game in boston and it went on my record. the record gave me problems getting racing licenses at first. to this day i can't get a license in florida because of it. i pleaded guilty and paid a $25 fine and never thought it was that big a deal.

today to benefit the state emplyees and pollitions pockets lotteries and slot machines are legal in some states. in racing the state does have a racing commision to oversea racetracks and they are the real people that run the racetrack. they can close it any day they feel like it for any reason.

the racing commision is another useless set of high paying government jobs that shouldn't exist to begin with. the parimutual tax should not exist either.

since the state is the ultimate boss of a racetrack without having one penny invested in it you can see another structural problem of the game that i have been pointing out lately.
government and the nfl do not mix right and neither does any form of gambling and government like we have in racing and slot machines. racing should run and police itself, if it cannot do it the game is DEAD

[onefast99]

but you are going to Penn National or one of their ilk, the answer is noway. Anyway at best, Racinos in a place like NJ are a very short answer as more and more place get casinos without race tracks, their profits will dry up and the pressure to drop a money losers like Race tracks will become too much to overcome or they must might shut down entirely.

The Meadowlands region is one of the most densely populated areas in the USA. There is rail service between NYC and the Meadowlands, there is bus service as well as several huge projects in their final stages of completion to expand route 3 and the entrances and exits to the New Giants/Jets stadium. You need to do some homework on what is going on in this area, and please stop comparing it to the likes of a Penn National or Delaware Park.

[Robert Goren]

Here is the real issue...

It's unacceptable to support one economic region against another," Sarlo said.

This is a problem that will have to be negotiated between the two sides, or the North vs the South in this case. The Meadowlands is an ideal place for a casino and the racing industry embraces this idea along with the people of NJ for such a casino. The AC problems are more than just the safety of the people who frequent the town, it is at this point over populated with casinos that cannot compete for the gambling dollars due to the fact those dollars are very limited. Creating a family themed environment in AC is just all smoke and mirrors unless you lower the gambling age. If an attempt to create a safety zone is made the people who are living in that area will want a lot of money for their properties, or use stall tactics to stay in those properties thus creating an endless time frame for the completion of this project. At this point Christi hasn't heard all sides, once he does this attempted take-over of AC will be his demise. While it is a north vrs south issue, it is also a "how big government should be" issue and a "how much should gambling be expanded" issue. Christi is about as safe as a rep. can be in a blue state. He has wide spread support and unless he does something very unrepublican like say raising taxes he will be round for awhile.

[onefast99]

While it is a north vrs south issue, it is also a "how big government should be" issue and a "how much should gambling be expanded" issue. Christi is about as safe as a rep. can be in a blue state. He has wide spread support and unless he does something very unrepublican like say raising taxes he will be round for awhile.
The ad mentions Christie's steps for improving the economy in southern New Jersey:


Lower income taxes and cut taxes on small business
Property tax relief
Protect Atlantic City jobs
The ad states that Christie is the "only candidate for governor who's consistently opposed slot machines in north Jersey."

This was taken from an ad during the election campaign, Christi always opposed the slots but what he didn't realize as pointed out by then Governor Corzine was the NJ voters can vote for slot expansion if put before them.

[bane]

:eek: I stand corrected. I did find this on the internet.

http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2010/tables/10s0437.xls

It says that NJ received no tax revenue from parimutuel wagering on horse racing in 2006. There are some states that recieve less 1% to run operate their racing commissions. Nebraska is one of those. I have previous stated they had done away with it entirely. I was wrong. In 2006 Nebraska recieved about 300k from that tax.

I wonder if this is left over from when Ak-Sar-Ben gave a lot of their money back to the community and they never cared to change it.

...intresting since the goverment took down Ak-Sar-Ben the true jewel of the Mid-West.

[Robert Goren]

I wonder if this is left over from when Ak-Sar-Ben gave a lot of their money back to the community and they never cared to change it.

...intresting since the goverment took down Ak-Sar-Ben the true jewel of the Mid-West.In Nebraska, Race tracks have always been run by non profits. The Aksarben organization still exists today, but is not in the horse racing business. The race track in Lincoln was run by the state fair . Both them and small simulcast race track in Omaha which holds an 8 day meet are run by a non profit group made up of horsemen now. Other out state tracks are run/were run by county ag. societies which put on their county fairs. Most of the state tax part of the takeout was dropped several years before the closing of the Aksarben race track in an attempt to keep it and several small quarter horse tracks alive. The QH horse tracks also closed about the time Aksarben did. Arkarben race track was run in it last two years of exist by Douglas county while the voters got a chance to vote on whether or not to allow slots at race tracks in Nebraska. It was turn by a pretty good margin as I remember. I have been a part of several petition drives in the state legalize casino gambling here. A few have made it to ballot and one ballot initiative by the legislature have lost by ever increasing margins.

[Robert Goren]

but you are going to Penn National or one of their ilk, the answer is noway. Anyway at best, Racinos in a place like NJ are a very short answer as more and more place get casinos without race tracks, their profits will dry up and the pressure to drop a money losers like Race tracks will become too much to overcome or they must might shut down entirely.

The Meadowlands region is one of the most densely populated areas in the USA. There is rail service between NYC and the Meadowlands, there is bus service as well as several huge projects in their final stages of completion to expand route 3 and the entrances and exits to the New Giants/Jets stadium. You need to do some homework on what is going on in this area, and please stop comparing it to the likes of a Penn National or Delaware Park. If NYRA ever actually get slots a lot of your market goes away. Besides it is only a matter of time before more casinos without race tracks pop in the area. Once slots get their foot in the door everybody wants them. It is pretty hard to argue that a race track should have them and not the VFW or the American Legion. You should do some home work on what happens in other densely populated areas where other racinos and casinos have open. Gambling works best in tourist traps, not nearly so well when you have to count on the locals for most the action. Remember that Meadowlands started out as a summer thoroughbred track in an attempt to get some of the NYC area racing dollars from Aqueduct and Belmont and we all know how that turned out.

[onefast99]

If NYRA ever actually get slots a lot of your market goes away. Besides it is only a matter of time before more casinos without race tracks pop in the area. Once slots get their foot in the door everybody wants them. It is pretty hard to argue that a race track should have them and not the VFW or the American Legion. You should do some home work on what happens in other densely populated areas where other racinos and casinos have open. Gambling works best in tourist traps, not nearly so well when you have to count on the locals for most the action. Remember that Meadowlands started out as a summer thoroughbred track in an attempt to get some of the NYC area racing dollars from Aqueduct and Belmont and we all know how that turned out.
You actually think NJ will lose any market share over NYRA? Did you ever try to get to Aqueduct or Belmont from anywhere in NJ? The traffic is a nightmare either the GW bridge is backed up or the Verrazano Narrows is at a standstill, and thats not even during traffic hour! NYRA will pull heavily from Long Island.
The rail system has been set up from NYC to the Meadowlands as part of the package for the new stadium. Combine that with an expanded parking area(former Giants stadium lots)and you have plenty of room for everyone.
Your assessment of casinos being in tourist traps is pretty lame, use Google to get your answer on that one it will surprise you.

Last but not least here is a little lesson on the Meadowlands for you!
History
Opened in the mid 1970s, Meadowlands Racetrack held its first-ever harness race on September 1, 1976 while thoroughbred racing commenced on September 6, 1977.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meadowlands_Racetrack#cite_note-0)[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meadowlands_Racetrack#cite_note-1) With the exception of the opening season of 1976, autumn has been dedicated to the thoroughbreds (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thoroughbred), while the rest of the year features standardbreds (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standardbred), or harness horses.

[onefast99]

Does anyone have the full report on the NJ gaming industry presented to Governor Christi?

[onefast99]

[QUOTE=Robert Goren]You should do some home work on what happens in other densely populated areas where other racinos and casinos have open. Gambling works best in tourist traps, not nearly so well when you have to count on the locals for most the action.

Here is an article I found in a gaming publication.

Little hard evidence about the impact of casinos on tourism
With a few notable exceptions (Nevada, Caribbean and specific locales in Europe), casino development is a relatively recent phenomenon. However, notwithstanding the rapid growth in the number and size of casinos and related developments in various jurisdictions in recent years, there is little hard evidence about the impact such developments have had on tourism.

Immediate urban markets are paramount
Historically, casinos have been closely associated with glamorous tourist destination resorts such as Monte Carlo, Baden Baden and Las Vegas. However, although there is a high correlation between casinos and tourism in these ‘resort’ destinations, not all casinos rely on tourists, or cause expansion of tourism markets. Most casinos cater primarily and predominantly to their immediate urban markets.

[Robert Goren]

I am done argue about NJ politics and slots on race tracks. To me it is very simple. Cut the takeout rate in half in all pools and that would bring enough revenue to survive. Then you would not have to deal with the low life state senators.

[alhattab]

Does anyone have the full report on the NJ gaming industry presented to Governor Christi?

http://www.nj.gov/governor/news/reports/pdf/20100721_state_document_final2.pdf

[onefast99]

I am done argue about NJ politics and slots on race tracks. To me it is very simple. Cut the takeout rate in half in all pools and that would bring enough revenue to survive. Then you would not have to deal with the low life state senators.
You didn't argue, you made things up. Maybe every business in America today should cut back on their profit margins!

[affirmedny]

What is the pari mutuel tax on those tracks? Is it different from Meadowlands and Monmouth?

1.25 % WPS
2.25 % exactas & doubles
5.25 % trifectas, supers, pick 3s p4s

[affirmedny]

You actually think NJ will lose any market share over NYRA? Did you ever try to get to Aqueduct or Belmont from anywhere in NJ? The traffic is a nightmare either the GW bridge is backed up or the Verrazano Narrows is at a standstill, and thats not even during traffic hour! NYRA will pull heavily from Long Island.
The rail system has been set up from NYC to the Meadowlands as part of the package for the new stadium. Combine that with an expanded parking area(former Giants stadium lots)and you have plenty of room for everyone.
Your assessment of casinos being in tourist traps is pretty lame, use Google to get your answer on that one it will surprise you.


I work in Manhattan. I can be at the Meadowlands in 15 minutes while it would take an hour to get to Aqueduct even though it's part of NYC.

[alhattab]

1.25 % WPS
2.25 % exactas & doubles
5.25 % trifectas, supers, pick 3s p4s

Wow. I'm surprised by that. Where did you find the info?

[David-LV]

Gambling works best in tourist traps, not nearly so well when you have to count on the locals for most the action.

Local business make up a big part of the gambling dollar in Las Vegas, almost all parimutuel betting and betting on sports is being done by the locals.

People move to Las Vegas just so they can be close to the action the numbers and the convenience.

The largest pokers games in the world are being played daily in our casinos with most of the top players in the world having moved to Las Vegas.

Please don't tell me I don't know what I'm talking about because my knowledge of gaming comes from over 35 years in the business.

Remember there is only one LAS VEGAS which can't be duplicated no matter how hard anybody tries.


_________
David-LV

[Robert Goren]

Say what you want, but Vegas would not exist in any way like it does without gambling. I doubt if Vegas can duplicated, but AC is /was trying although I think they would settle for being an east coast Reno. While it may have been true a few years that the biggest stakes poker games were played in Vegas, that is not true any more. They are now played on the Internet. While you may have spent 35 years in the gambling business, I spent almost as long trying to get casino gambling legal in Nebraska. The one thing I have learned is that there is a lot (maybe a really lot) of people who are willing to travel to gamble, but don't want it in their backyard. If you get away from the people who work in the gambling business, nobody thinks that tax money should used to keep it open. Even liberals who support the bail outs of banks and car companies are not willing to go that far. People in the industry seem to blinders on, when it comes to the feelings of people outside of it. Expansion of gambling is tough sell these days. It involves more than just regional state politics which some posters are willing to acknowledge.

[David-LV]

Say what you want, but Vegas would not exist in any way like it does without gambling. I doubt if Vegas can duplicated, but AC is /was trying although I think they would settle for being an east coast Reno. While it may have been true a few years that the biggest stakes poker games were played in Vegas, that is not true any more. They are now played on the Internet. While you may have spent 35 years in the gambling business, I spent almost as long trying to get casino gambling legal in Nebraska. The one thing I have learned is that there is a lot (maybe a really lot) of people who are willing to travel to gamble, but don't want it in their backyard. If you get away from the people who work in the gambling business, nobody thinks that tax money should used to keep it open. Even liberals who support the bail outs of banks and car companies are not willing to go that far. People in the industry seem to blinders on, when it comes to the feelings of people outside of it. Expansion of gambling is tough sell these days. It involves more than just regional state politics which some posters are willing to acknowledge.

Almost everything in this post is total nonsense.

Poker on the internet is for suckers who are giving their money away to computer fixed games.

Every major Poker Pro can be seen playing daily at the different poker rooms in Las Vegas.

If you ever come to Vegas I personally will introduce you to them.

Cheer up, it is only Monday!!!!:jump:
__________
David-LV

[Alex D]

Remember that Meadowlands started out as a summer thoroughbred track in an attempt to get some of the NYC area racing dollars from Aqueduct and Belmont and we all know how that turned out.

Maybe you need to remember better. Meadowlands started in September 1976 with harness racing. The first thorougbred meet wasn't until 1977 and it was in the Fall, as it has been every year since - until 2010 when there were no t-breds.

[Alex D]

I am done argue about NJ politics and slots on race tracks. To me it is very simple. Cut the takeout rate in half in all pools and that would bring enough revenue to survive. Then you would not have to deal with the low life state senators.

You constantly say the same thing - and I commend you on your consistent message - but I have yet to see you actually address how the current stakeholders will deal with their existing revenue streams being cut in half.

We're talking about the host track, the host racetrack purse account, the sending track, and the sending track's purse account. Even the most optimistic takeout reduction advocates concede that over time the handle growth will be there to offset the revenue reductions, but it doesn't happen overnight. It's not a lightswitch where you have 20% takout Friday and handle 10 million and come in Saturday with 10% takeout and handle 20 million.

So during the years of lag time to grow the handle, where does the revenue come from to fill the gap? Where do these tracks make up the money to continue their operations - because a takeout reduction does nothing to decrease your enormous capital costs needed to run a live racing product. You are dealing with tracks struggling to meet operating costs, purse accounts desparately trying to keep up with slot enriched jurisdictions and you think everyone is stupid for not cutting these revenue streams in half and waiting to see if your predictions are right.

[Robert Goren]

Almost everything in this post is total nonsense.

Poker on the internet is for suckers who are giving their money away to computer fixed games.

Every major Poker Pro can be seen playing daily at the different poker rooms in Las Vegas.

If you ever come to Vegas I personally will introduce you to them.

Cheer up, it is only Monday!!!!:jump:
__________
David-LV I doubt that I will ever be healthy enough to return to Vegas, But If ever am I would love to take you up on your offer. Not that I would want to play with them, but I would like to meet them. In fact I would like to meet you. No kidding. I have always found the business of gaming fascinating. Last year or this winter there was a big game online in which Phil Ivey and several other big name pros were playing one on one with a European pro. The winnings or losing often exceeded a million dollar a session. It went on for quite a few weeks until they busted the European pro. It was the talk of the 2+2 poker forum at the time.

[Robert Goren]

You constantly say the same thing - and I commend you on your consistent message - but I have yet to see you actually address how the current stakeholders will deal with their existing revenue streams being cut in half.

We're talking about the host track, the host racetrack purse account, the sending track, and the sending track's purse account. Even the most optimistic takeout reduction advocates concede that over time the handle growth will be there to offset the revenue reductions, but it doesn't happen overnight. It's not a lightswitch where you have 20% takeout Friday and handle 10 million and come in Saturday with 10% takeout and handle 20 million.

So during the years of lag time to grow the handle, where does the revenue come from to fill the gap? Where do these tracks make up the money to continue their operations - because a takeout reduction does nothing to decrease your enormous capital costs needed to run a live racing product. You are dealing with tracks struggling to meet operating costs, purse accounts desparately trying to keep up with slot enriched jurisdictions and you think everyone is stupid for not cutting these revenue streams in half and waiting to see if your predictions are right. The lag time problem is exactly why I was on Monmouth Park's case from the start. If they had used the 30 million dollar as a buffer to cover expenses this year they would be well on their way to self sufficiency. Everyplace that has has cut the takeout rate even by a small amount has seen huge growth handle over a very short period of time. If just one of the tracks who got slots to stay alive had tried cutting takeout, I would be more inclined to support the idea. But I firmly believe that unless takeout rates are cut, we have casinos running for what in all practical purposes will be non betting races. I think a lot of horse people would love that, but that is not what I want. As more and more places get slots the revenue from them for each individual track will decline. It is already happening in places. Why do you think they are putting in table games. 20 years ago casinos were closing card rooms to put in more slot machines. Now they are cutting back on the slots machines to open card rooms. Race tracks have got to figure out a way to stand on their own two feet. The one that do will be around in 20 years, the ones that don't won't.