Obama's Lemonmobile

[JustRalph]

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/30/opinion/30neidermeyer.html?_r=2&ref=opinion

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/misc/nytlogo152x23.gif
July 29, 2010
G.M.’s Electric Lemon
By EDWARD NIEDERMEYER
Portland, Ore.

GENERAL MOTORS introduced America to the Chevrolet Volt at the 2007 Detroit Auto Show as a low-slung concept car that would someday be the future of motorized transportation. It would go 40 miles on battery power alone, promised G.M., after which it would create its own electricity with a gas engine. Three and a half years — and one government-assisted bankruptcy later — G.M. is bringing a Volt to market that makes good on those two promises. The problem is, well, everything else.

For starters, G.M.’s vision turned into a car that costs $41,000 before relevant tax breaks ... but after billions of dollars of government loans and grants for the Volt’s development and production. And instead of the sleek coupe of 2007, it looks suspiciously similar to a Toyota Prius. It also requires premium gasoline, seats only four people (the battery runs down the center of the car, preventing a rear bench) and has less head and leg room than the $17,000 Chevrolet Cruze, which is more or less the non-electric version of the Volt.

In short, the Volt appears to be exactly the kind of green-at-all-costs car that some opponents of the bailout feared the government might order G.M. to build. Unfortunately for this theory, G.M. was already committed to the Volt when it entered bankruptcy. And though President Obama’s task force reported in 2009 that the Volt “will likely be too expensive to be commercially successful in the short term,” it didn’t cancel the project.

see the link for more

From the link:

Quantifying just how much taxpayer money will have been wasted on the hastily developed Volt is no easy feat. Start with the $50 billion bailout (without which none of this would have been necessary), add $240 million in Energy Department grants doled out to G.M. last summer, $150 million in federal money to the Volt’s Korean battery supplier, up to $1.5 billion in tax breaks for purchasers and other consumer incentives, and some significant portion of the $14 billion loan G.M. got in 2008 for “retooling” its plants, and you’ve got some idea of how much taxpayer cash is built into every Volt.

[rastajenk]

Shocking! :eek:

[Mike at A+]

Electric cars are for golf. PERIOD.

[riskman]

Obama's Lemonmobile ? What did Obama have to do with the design of the Volt? Yes, I can read.

[GaryG]

I used to be Chevrolet's biggest fan and supporter. At this point I would ride a unicycle before I would buy anything from Gummint Motors. Screw em and their commie boss.

[prospector]

lets not forget..obama thinks the cost of electric is too cheap..
40 k for a golf cart with higher costs than gas..what a deal

25k is my limit for any car/truck..period
even if i have to buy used..

[Light]

Get it straight. The volt was born in the Bush administration. It was clearly stated back then that the car would cost around $40k. Obama was a mere candidate at that time.

GM's problem with the electric car started back in 1999 when they had a true all electric, affordable car ,the EV1, before the Pruis came on the market.They only leased them,never sold them. Due to greed in their corporate headquarters,they scraped the car,recalled all the leases and refused to sell it to anyone when many who leased the car were begging them to buy one.Instead GM rounded them all up and crushed them leaving only one which stands today in a car museum as testimony to GM's idiocy. Why did they crush them? Because they realized after they made them that they would not make as much money on them from service and parts because it was a truly electric car that did not have an auxiliary gas engine that needed oil changes or tuneups. Right after they scraped the car,the Pruis came on the market. After the Pruis's success,they have been playing nothing but an awkward kind of catchup in the electric car division when they would have been the clear leader if they weren't so blind with greed 10 years ago.

[JustRalph]

I used to be Chevrolet's biggest fan and supporter. At this point I would ride a unicycle before I would buy anything from Gummint Motors. Screw em and their commie boss.

Same here. I have a Tahoe that I bought 4 yrs ago and will probably keep it forever. But I will never buy another GM or Chrysler (hate Chrysler cars anyway, only owned a used one 25 yrs ago) Not a big fan of Ford either, but if they made the right vehicle it wouldn't go off the list automatically like the GM stuff.

I am contemplating a bumper sticker that says

" My last GM Vehicle" :lol:

Love the Honda cars .......but I like driving an SUV and won't change. Honda doesn't make a decent SUV or I might consider a switch. I like the Toyota trucks too. I love the new 4-runner, but the price is a little steep

[toetoe]

Obama was a mere candidate at that time.





Aah, the good old days. :cool: .



Thanks for the stroll down Memory Lane, Light. :ThmbUp: .

[Greyfox]

Electric Golf Cars are essentially good for 54 holes.

Even if GM or anyone else can ultimately develop an electric car that will go 200 miles, I don't want it.
Using electricity to run cars will be more damaging to the ecology in the long run than good old gas.
It is sheer folly for the Government to keep pursuing this avenue. Sheer folly.

[Tom]

Originally Posted by Light
Obama was a mere candidate at that time.

Haven't you noticed? That's all he still is.

[JustRalph]

http://gm-volt.com/2010/07/30/why-the-volt-requires-premium-gasoline/

The Volt Requires Premium Unleaded.............But I think the goal is to not use real gasoline except in Emergencies

http://gm-volt.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/gm-14-liter-turbo-engine.jpg

The AAA Fuel Gauge Report shows the current national average price for a gallon of regular unleaded gasoline is $2.74. The national average for a gallon of premium gasoline is $3.01.

[Mike at A+]

New sales slogan for the Chevy Volt:

GREAT FOR VISITING YOUR NEXT DOOR NEIGHBORS!

[chickenhead]

I think technology-wise, where we are currently with battery technology the Volt design is the way to go -- it's just another hybrid, just like the very successful Prius, just configured slightly differently (better imo). An all-electric car with a 100 mile range isn't going to sell as a primary vehicle, but a 40 mile vehicle with an onboard battery charger can be used as a primary as it has long range, yet still covers a lot of day to day driving for many people under all electric.

It's just one step down the evolutionary path of where cars are going, it's not the end point. The prices need to come down, but part of the prices coming down is selling a few of them.

I got to spend some time around a Tesla last weekend, what an insanely awesome car. If you want to talk about impractical so far as selling many tho, start there. Their "sedan" should come in a little closer to something that could sell, but I doubt it will be any cheaper than the Volt.

[prospector]

what this country needs is a car for the "masses"
like the model T did..it was affordable
the vw bug in the 60's..cheap to buy and operate..

not a 40k car run on expensive fuel and expensive electric

[bigmack]

ChuckieK knocks it outta the park again:

"The only people who are going to buy it are going to be very rich people who are going to park it outside their townhouse for ostentatious show of how virtuous they are while they drive around in their Cadillac Escalade."

"This is a classic example of what happens when the political and ideological desires of an administration are imposed on a private company...It's not how many jobs you create or even save, it's can you sell a product in the market that will make a profit? Otherwise, it's a farce."

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2010/07/31/krauthammer_the_chevy_volt_is_a_disaster.html

[boxcar]

what this country needs is a car for the "masses"
like the model T did..it was affordable
the vw bug in the 60's..cheap to buy and operate..

not a 40k car run on expensive fuel and expensive electric

I have long wondered how "expensive electric" figured into the Mother Earth crowd's plans for cheap, energy-efficient, eco-friendly energy sources? Just how is all this needed juice going to be generated to recharge all these batteries?

Boxcar

[Greyfox]

Just how is all this needed juice going to be generated to recharge all these batteries?

Boxcar

With coal.

http://mkcommunists.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/coal-power-plant.jpg.

[JustRalph]

http://gm-volt.com/2010/08/01/chevrolet-volt-license-plates/

some are getting their license plates to show off their enthusiasm

I predict some new incentive for buyers, beyond the current 7k tax credit.

The Government cannot let this thing fail.......... I look for a doubling of the Incentive in year 2 and making it retro-active to the original buyers

[Tom]

BP will know which cars to "key." :lol:

[JustRalph]

http://www.slate.com/id/2262229/pagenum/all/

Even the lefty mags are calling this a loser

[JustRalph]

The Chevy Volt sold 125 Units in July

Check out some of the prices

http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/searchresults.jsp?lastBeginningStartYear=1981&num_records=25&search_lang=en&page_location=findacar%3A%3Aispsearchform&search_type=both&distance=0&address=21060&marketZipError=false&make=CHEV&model=VOLT&make2=&start_year=1981&end_year=2012&min_price=&max_price=&seller_type=b&transmission=&engine=&drive=&doors=&fuel=&max_mileage=&color=&keywordsrep=&keywordsfyc=&keywords_display=&sort_type=priceDESC&body_code=0&certified=&advanced=&highlightFirstMakeModel=&showZipError=y&default_sort=priceDESC&systime=&sownerid=915328&dma=BALTIMORE&rdm=1312420831849

Leaf is starting to edge away...........make that going away........

http://www.insideline.com/nissan/leaf/nissan-leaf-extends-sales-lead-over-chevrolet-volt-in-july.html

The Leaf sold 931 units in July versus 125 units of the Chevrolet Volt.

[mostpost]

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/30/opinion/30neidermeyer.html?_r=2&ref=opinion

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/misc/nytlogo152x23.gif
July 29, 2010
G.M.’s Electric Lemon
By EDWARD NIEDERMEYER
Portland, Ore.

GENERAL MOTORS introduced America to the Chevrolet Volt at the 2007 Detroit Auto Show as a low-slung concept car that would someday be the future of motorized transportation. It would go 40 miles on battery power alone, promised G.M., after which it would create its own electricity with a gas engine. Three and a half years — and one government-assisted bankruptcy later — G.M. is bringing a Volt to market that makes good on those two promises. The problem is, well, everything else.

For starters, G.M.’s vision turned into a car that costs $41,000 before relevant tax breaks ... but after billions of dollars of government loans and grants for the Volt’s development and production. And instead of the sleek coupe of 2007, it looks suspiciously similar to a Toyota Prius. It also requires premium gasoline, seats only four people (the battery runs down the center of the car, preventing a rear bench) and has less head and leg room than the $17,000 Chevrolet Cruze, which is more or less the non-electric version of the Volt.

In short, the Volt appears to be exactly the kind of green-at-all-costs car that some opponents of the bailout feared the government might order G.M. to build. Unfortunately for this theory, G.M. was already committed to the Volt when it entered bankruptcy. And though President Obama’s task force reported in 2009 that the Volt “will likely be too expensive to be commercially successful in the short term,” it didn’t cancel the project.

see the link for more

From the link:

Quantifying just how much taxpayer money will have been wasted on the hastily developed Volt is no easy feat. Start with the $50 billion bailout (without which none of this would have been necessary), add $240 million in Energy Department grants doled out to G.M. last summer, $150 million in federal money to the Volt’s Korean battery supplier, up to $1.5 billion in tax breaks for purchasers and other consumer incentives, and some significant portion of the $14 billion loan G.M. got in 2008 for “retooling” its plants, and you’ve got some idea of how much taxpayer cash is built into every Volt.

You posted an excellent article on the Chevy Volt and the problems that it has encountered. Certainly everyone can see that GM has a long way to go before it can produce a viable, reliable, affordable, practical electric car.
But you ruined your credibility by titleing your thread Obama's Lemonmobile.

In your desperation to blame everything on Obama, you failed to grasp that planning for the Volt began during Bush's tenure. I don't blame Bush. I think the decision to manufacture an electric car was made by GM without government help or pressure.

The Volt is not a perfect car. The first airplane flew 120 feet. They fly further now. The first TV signal went from the Merchandise Mart in Chicago to Aurora, Illinois. Now we can watch the Epsom Derby and the Arc in our living rooms. Sometimes we need to take small steps before we can run.

[mostpost]

Electric Golf Cars are essentially good for 54 holes.

Even if GM or anyone else can ultimately develop an electric car that will go 200 miles, I don't want it.
Using electricity to run cars will be more damaging to the ecology in the long run than good old gas.
It is sheer folly for the Government to keep pursuing this avenue. Sheer folly.
Why?

[mostpost]

Why?
Greyfox, I just noticed your "with coal" response to Boxcar, which answers my question above. But I think you are wrong. Maybe. The question is how much additional coal needs to be burned to charge an electric car and how does that compare to the emissions that will be saved by not burning gasoline. I don't know the answer to those questions.

[mostpost]

A problem with electric cars which isn't much talked about:
I live in an apartment building. Millions do. From where I park to where I live, I would need a 200 foot plus extension cord. There are a few outlets on the outside of the building, but I think the landlord would not want to pay for charging my car. He has not offered to pay for my gas yet.

[Greyfox]

Why?

For starters 1. coal 2. lithium will need to be mined.

[lsbets]

Same here. I have a Tahoe that I bought 4 yrs ago and will probably keep it forever. But I will never buy another GM or Chrysler (hate Chrysler cars anyway, only owned a used one 25 yrs ago) Not a big fan of Ford either, but if they made the right vehicle it wouldn't go off the list automatically like the GM stuff.

I am contemplating a bumper sticker that says

" My last GM Vehicle" :lol:

Love the Honda cars .......but I like driving an SUV and won't change. Honda doesn't make a decent SUV or I might consider a switch. I like the Toyota trucks too. I love the new 4-runner, but the price is a little steep

I hate the bailouts, but when we found out we were having kid number 4, I had to buy my wife a bigger car. I ended up getting an Escalade. I love that car. For something so big, it drives really well, and the engine has some balls to it. Gas mileage, that's another story. But that's to be expected.

[turninforhome10]

The bottom line is if there is profit to be made and the market supports the idea then it will be done. How can we subsidize the green movement when it can not move the market. The market will never support a 40k electric car. A 12k electric would probably sell well. How much money has been siphoned off to support a movement that the free market won't endorse.

[Pace Cap'n]

Greyfox, I just noticed your "with coal" response to Boxcar, which answers my question above. But I think you are wrong. Maybe. The question is how much additional coal needs to be burned to charge an electric car and how does that compare to the emissions that will be saved by not burning gasoline. I don't know the answer to those questions.

We have just witnessed a historic moment.

[Tom]

Who has hijacked mostie's account here???

[JustRalph]

I hate the bailouts, but when we found out we were having kid number 4, I had to buy my wife a bigger car. I ended up getting an Escalade. I love that car. For something so big, it drives really well, and the engine has some balls to it. Gas mileage, that's another story. But that's to be expected.

LS, So much for my quote above. I didnt keep the Tahoe. After five years it was falling apart. I bought a new Tundra a week or so ago. Got the crew max, big extended cab. It's a beast and the price was over 10k less than a Comparable GM product. Gas mileage is exactly the same as the Tahoe.

Built in San Antonio btw.........

[JustRalph]

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2011/11/25/2804472/2nd-electric-car-battery-fire.html

This is all they need......... the Volt stops here...........

[Robert Goren]

The problem with electric cars is the time it takes to recharge them. I don't know if they can ever over come that. Right now they are an expensive drive-to-work car. The real market for them is overseas, especially in China. GM is going to market an electric car(not the Volt) there.

What I never understood is why Natural Gas cars aren't more popular. I knew someone who had a pick up that ran on propane. He was a farmer and loved it. He said it cost half as much as a gasoline pick up to run. He was a big tight wad, so he would have own it, if it wasn't . Natural Gas is way cheaper than propane.

[Pace Cap'n]

The problem with electric cars is the time it takes to recharge them. I don't know if they can ever over come that. Right now they are an expensive drive-to-work car. The real market for them is overseas, especially in China. GM is going to market an electric car(not the Volt) there.

What I never understood is why Natural Gas cars aren't more popular. I knew someone who had a pick up that ran on propane. He was a farmer and loved it. He said it cost half as much as a gasoline pick up to run. He was a big tight wad, so he would have own it, if it wasn't . Natural Gas is way cheaper than propane.

You just answered your own question...

Q: What I never understood is why Natural Gas cars aren't more popular.

A: Natural Gas is way cheaper than propane.

[Tom]

None of Obama's biggest contributors own natural gas plants? :rolleyes:

[chickenhead]

pretty uninterested in the volt in general, but the battery fires to date appear to be much ado about nothing, and the reporting bordering on intentionally misleading -- and the kind of thing that the status quo likes to use to kill new technologies.

A different technology can require different handling. If a battery pack requires someone to drain the battery pack after it gets compromised, that is what the technology requires. That a fully charged, damaged battery eventually may burn after many hours or days just means that there is good reason to discharge the battery.

So discharge the battery.

[Robert Goren]

When figuring the cost of a gasoline driven car, you have add in the cost of two gulf wars. The first one was all about oil, I don't anyone disputes that. The second one was at least partly about keeping oil flowing the the Middle East. When you figure in those taxpayer borne cost, gasoline get pretty expensive pretty fast. That is one government subsidy that the pro oil people never talk about.

[chickenhead]

as an anecdote, I almost blew myself and and old Toyota truck up when changing the tire, one of my many Darwin Award near-submissions.

Truck: Flat tire, rear driver side.
Location: Parked perpendicular on uneven surface, downslope towards me.
Me: Young and dumb. Smoking a ciggy.

Jacked up truck, removed flat tire, whilst jacking up a bit further to install new tire truck kicked off the stand, towards me, sending jackstand directly through the gas tank. Yahtzee!

Step 1) Jump spryly and gracefully backwards onto ass to avoid lurching truck.
Step 2) Become instantly engulfed with gasoline flash flood.
Step 3) Remember you have a lit marlboro in your mouth.
Step 4) Crap pants.
Step 5) Carefully crab walk 10 feet backwards with neck arched, ciggy pointing up at sky.
Step 6) Turn head, spit ciggy as far as possible.
Step 7) Stand up, rejoice that you are alive.
Step 8) Realize you still have to deal with a truck sitting on its axle, part way in the road, with ruptured gas tank, and gas fuse leading to it.
Step 9) Console yourself in the knowledge that someday this will all seem funny.

[JustRalph]

When figuring the cost of a gasoline driven car, you have add in the cost of two gulf wars. The first one was all about oil, I don't anyone disputes that. The second one was at least partly about keeping oil flowing the the Middle East. When you figure in those taxpayer borne cost, gasoline get pretty expensive pretty fast. That is one government subsidy that the pro oil people never talk about.

Is it open mic night again? Very funny...........ask those people in Kuwait who's daughters were raped by Saddam's goons if it was about Oil. The Kuwaiti Royal Family personally contacted Bush Sr. and informed him of the abuse.

[Tom]

I suppose Bobby thinks WWII was all about oil, too, seeing how Hitler went after Russia's oil fields.

[Valuist]

The problem with electric cars is the time it takes to recharge them. I don't know if they can ever over come that. Right now they are an expensive drive-to-work car. The real market for them is overseas, especially in China. GM is going to market an electric car(not the Volt) there.

What I never understood is why Natural Gas cars aren't more popular. I knew someone who had a pick up that ran on propane. He was a farmer and loved it. He said it cost half as much as a gasoline pick up to run. He was a big tight wad, so he would have own it, if it wasn't . Natural Gas is way cheaper than propane.

As long as nat gas is associated with Boone Pickens, the Dems will be against it. Supposedly Pickens said some less than flattering things about then-candidate John Kerry before the 2004 election and they haven't gotten over it.

[Actor]

Electric cars are for golf. PERIOD.

I've been thinking of buying a Neighborhood Electric Vehicle? NEVs have been around since 1998. They are basically street legal electric golf carts with a range of about 40 miles and a price of around $10,000. Federal law requires that they be equipped with a governor limiting their top speed to 25 mph plus they are restricted to roads with posted speed limits of 35 mph or less. That meets 99% of my driving requirements. I can rent-a-car for the other 1%. The grocery store is less than a mile away. The mall, movie theater, Wal-Mart and a lot of nice restaurants are withing three miles.

The cost of charging the batteries is negligible. Since it does not have an internal combustion engine it's low maintenance. The biggest maintenance cost is probably replacing the battery pack every few years at a cost of about $500.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neighborhood_Electric_Vehicle

[JustRalph]

http://hotair.com/archives/2012/01/28/super-california-votes-to-mandate-more-electric-cars/

California is now going to make sure that electric cars are offered.

More tampering with the market. Forcing a failed product on the public.

[boxcar]

what this country needs is a car for the "masses"

Huh? We've had one for decades. It's called a bus. The only critically important item missing from this godsend we call "transportation for the masses" is the individual mandate. :lol:

Boxcar

[boxcar]

I've been thinking of buying a Neighborhood Electric Vehicle? NEVs have been around since 1998. They are basically street legal electric golf carts with a range of about 40 miles and a price of around $10,000. Federal law requires that they be equipped with a governor limiting their top speed to 25 mph plus they are restricted to roads with posted speed limits of 35 mph or less. That meets 99% of my driving requirements. I can rent-a-car for the other 1%. The grocery store is less than a mile away. The mall, movie theater, Wal-Mart and a lot of nice restaurants are withing three miles.

The cost of charging the batteries is negligible. Since it does not have an internal combustion engine it's low maintenance. The biggest maintenance cost is probably replacing the battery pack every few years at a cost of about $500.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neighborhood_Electric_Vehicle

From what you have described about your transportation needs, it sounds like you could buy a pretty decent bicycle for a heck of a lot cheaper than 10K. :lol:

Boxcar

[JustRalph]

http://blog.caranddriver.com/over-400-chevrolet-dealers-opt-out-of-selling-volt-due-to-higher-service-tool-costs/


Boondoggle Motors takes another blow

400 dealers use an excuse to bail out of volt sales

[Actor]

From what you have described about your transportation needs, it sounds like you could buy a pretty decent bicycle for a heck of a lot cheaper than 10K. :lol:

BoxcarI have a trick knee which rules out a bicycle. I settled on a 50cc motorcycle.

[lamboguy]

i bought a BUDDY motor scooter a couple of years ago and the thing is great. i only put about 3000 miles on the thing, i use it when i have between 5 and 15 miles to go, or if i am lazy and don't feel like running. when its raining or very windy i drive my 1997 Buick Lesabre around. i haven't had to repair either the scooter or the car in the last year, and i like that!

[Actor]

The public is being sold this idea that electrics cars are environmentally friendly but they are not. Electric cars actually run on coal. :bang:

[Actor]

From what you have described about your transportation needs, it sounds like you could buy a pretty decent bicycle for a heck of a lot cheaper than 10K. :lol:

BoxcarI had a bicycle before my knee went out. My last bicycle was a 21 speed. I had about $1000 invested in it. It was stolen. I've had several nice bicycles stolen from me over the years. Super padlocks and chains don't work. The thieves just cut through the frame and sell the parts.

[johnhannibalsmith]

This is pretty pathetic/amusing. The State of Washington is taxing electric vehicles a flat fee? Why? They are using the roads without paying gas taxes. Gotta love it. Buy this expensive eyesore and you'll save enough in fuel to offset the premium. Sort of.

Starting in February the state of Washington will tax electric vehicle owners $100 per year. It's estimated there are a little more than 1,500 electric cars in Washington.

The money raised will go to the state's road maintenance fund. In essence, Washington wants electric car owners to pay $100 for the privilege of driving around the state.

....

Supporters of VMT or per mile taxes point out that electric car and even hybrid car owners are paying nothing or very little to help maintain state roads.

Take a look at the Washington electric vehicle tax and compare it to the state's current gas tax of 37 cents per gallon. If somebody drives an internal combustion car that gets 30 MPG and they average 12,500 miles driven each year, they'll pay about $154 a year in state gas tax. By comparison, electric car owners will be paying less at just $100 per year.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/way-tax-car-owners-pay-164657091.html

[JustRalph]

Volt sales are down............. 32%

forcing something onto the market still doesn't work..........

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20131101/AUTO01/311010108/1361/Volt-sales-down-32--in-October

Nissan Leaf sales up. But of course the U.S. didn't give them a gazillion bucks to stay alive.........

The Leaf is totally electric and a much better value

[fast4522]

A question for you liberals . . . . .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23gCTWWGhxw