I hope Ghostyapper is happy

[andtheyreoff]

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/58152/rachel-on-her-way-to-personal-ensign

Excerpt:

Rachel Alexandra, coming off two consecutive wins, will race next in the $300,000 Personal Ensign Stakes (gr. I) Aug. 29 in Saratoga. The race for fillies and mares will be run at 1 1/4 miles.

“Rachel feels very much at home among the great Saratoga fans,” said co-owner Jess Jackson in a press release. “It’s an historic race named after a great champion. The timing is right for Rachel. She’s been coming back into her stride and this will help her prepare for the rest of her campaign and the Breeders’ Cup later this year.”

[cj]

I predicted this months ago. It was the obvious spot. Time for Shirreffs to man up.

[Cardus]

I predicted this months ago. It was the obvious spot. Time for Shirreffs to man up.

In other words, make the race... don't be tardy.

[PhantomOnTour]

I predicted this months ago. It was the obvious spot. Time for Shirreffs to man up.
He ain't comin...gonna use the old 'don't wanna ship in Aug and again in Nov' excuse or something. These two will face each other exactly once...in the Ladies Classic or the Classic. Just my opinion.

[andymays]

I'll go out on a limb and say Zenyatta goes east for the race. There is no good reason not to go.

[Hedevar]

We are about to hear every excuse in the book and some that have not been thought of yet.

[GaryG]

IMO they want to make sure that she retires undefeated. With no HOY that is about all they have left. I will be both surprised and impressed if they take RA on at Saratoga.

[Hedevar]

Very good strategic move by Jackson, by the way, a simple statement with no demands. If you want us, this is where we will be. At the most famous racetrack in the country running a mile and a quarter on dirt.

[classhandicapper]

If I were going to take Rachel on I'd prefer doing it in the Classic at 10F against colts. That way even if I lost the race I would still be highly likely to finish ahead of Rachel. She'd have to cope with legitimate Grade 1 speed up front against colts. This way, she's almost certain to be the dominant speed.

If the are going to meet before the BC, then this is the most logical spot. However, I'd still like to see the probable field to make sure I wasn't shipping in to a totally paceless race.

I'd also start making a stink about the way the track was playing (no matter how it was playing) just to make sure they didn't bias the track on the day of the race. Some of you might think I'm being paranoid, but there is ZERO (and I mean ZERO) doubt that years ago NYRA used to manipulate the track on some big race days to favor certain horses/owners (and they were never from CA if you get my drift).

[cj]

If I were going to take Rachel on I'd prefer doing it in the Classic at 10F against colts. That way even if I lost the race I would still be highly likely to finish ahead of Rachel. She'd have to cope with legitimate Grade 1 speed up front against colts. This way, she's almost certain to be the dominant speed.

If the are going to meet before the BC, then this is the most logical spot. However, I'd still like to see the probable field to make sure I wasn't shipping in to a totally paceless race.

I'd also start making a stink about the way the track was playing (no matter how it was playing) just to make sure they didn't bias the track on the day of the race. Some of you might think I'm being paranoid, but there is ZERO (and I mean ZERO) doubt that years ago NYRA used to manipulate the track on some big race days to favor certain horses/owners (and they were never from CA if you get my drift).

This is the sad state of racing these days. Avoid places you might not win at all costs when you have a good horse. When did losing a few races become so terrible? It didn't seem to stop the RA camp.

[Hedevar]

The excuses start. But I believe Paranoia is in the books.

[classhandicapper]

This is the sad state of racing these days. Avoid places you might not win at all costs when you have a good horse. When did losing a few races become so terrible? It didn't seem to stop the RA camp.

Uh, and why didn't they ship west to run in the Classic? :lol:

It's not a matter of avoiding losing. It's a matter of making sure you don't ship somewhere to face your main opponent for year end honors/historical significance and play with a stacked deck. If they were afraid of losing they would have run in the Ladies Classic last year.

I actually think this is a reasonable spot for them try if they aren't satisfied with the track at Del Mar. 10F would make it more neutral to see who is better on dirt. We pretty much already know who is better on synthetic.

[classhandicapper]

The excuses start. But I believe Paranoia is in the books.

If you think the NY riders and track maintenance personal haven't stacked the deck against certain horses/owners in the past due to politics you aren't paying close enough attention.

I would liken what I am saying to a boxer from Mexico complaining about the judges in Las Vegas before the fight even starts just to try to make sure they don't favor the local fighter and promoter in the decision. They do it all the time because it helps.

You want to make that an inside speed bias doesn't mysteriously appear on the day your deep closer shows up to face the eastern based speed horse.

You also want to make sure all those eastern based riders don't suddenly fall asleep on the pace or go out of their way to box you in to delay your run.

Just saying those things reduces the probability of them happening because no one wants to be embarrassed and bring controversy into the sport.

That's what I would do and I think it's smart.

[PaceAdvantage]

Uh, and why didn't they ship west to run in the Classic? :lol:Cause it really didn't matter...it was unnecessary. Skipping the BC Classic had absolutely no negative impact on Rachel in the eyes of HOY voters. But that was last year, wasn't it?

It matters even less on July 30, 2010.

[cj]

I think it is time to break out this relic until something changes:

http://www.pacefigures.com/images/z.jpg

[andymays]

http://www.paulickreport.com/blog/rachel-alexandra-to-run-in-personal-ensign-at-saratoga/

Excerpt:

The following press release from Stonestsreet Farms was distributed early Friday afternoon, confirming that reigning Horse of the Year Rachel Alexandra will be pointed to the Personal Ensign Stakes Aug. 29 at Saratoga.

The question on the minds of racing fans is whether unbeaten, two-time champion Zenyatta will leave her California base to meet Rachel Alexandra for the first time in the mile and one-quarter Personal Ensign.

[classhandicapper]

Cause it really didn't matter...it was unnecessary. Skipping the BC Classic had absolutely no negative impact on Rachel in the eyes of HOY voters. But that was last year, wasn't it?

It matters even less on July 30, 2010.

The point CJ was making was that if they didn't ship to Saratoga they would be doing so to avoid losing.

The point I was making was that it never makes sense to ship to a place where the odds are stacked against you if there is great significance in the outcome.

Rachel's connections didn't ship west because they felt they had HOTY wrapped up, she was dead tired, and they would be facing Zenyatta with the deck stacked against them. They weren't avoiding losing or a challenge in the generic sense. It was logical thinking.

It's OK for the Zenyatta camp to be logical too. They should examine the field and probable conditions in the Saratoga race and compare them to the races at home before committing.

[cj]

The point CJ was making was that if they didn't ship to Saratoga they were avoiding losing.

The point I was making was that it never makes sense to ship to a place where the odds are stacked against you if there is great significance to the result.

Rachel's connections didn't ship west because they felt they had HOTY wrapped up, she was dead tired, and they would be facing Zenyatta with the deck stacked against them. They weren't avoiding losing in a generic sense. It was logical thinking. It's OK for the Zenyatta camp to be logical too.

My point is that there wouldn't be that much significance to the result. It will come down to the Breeder's Cup, which most likely neither can win anyway. If they are smart they have a rematch in the Distaff, but then we'll hear it is too short for Z. Having a lack of early speed is a negative trait on dirt, like it or not. You know this as well as anyone. If the BC hadn't been run on synthetics two years running, I think Z would be nothing more than a nice novelty story.

There is no way anyone can tell me running in a prep race at Delmar on polytrack against nothing is a good way to prepare for the Breeder's Cup.

[classhandicapper]

My point is that there wouldn't be that much significance to the result. It will come down to the Breeder's Cup, which most likely neither can win anyway. If they are smart they have a rematch in the Distaff, but then we'll hear it is too short for Z. Having a lack of early speed is a negative trait on dirt, like it or not. You know this as well as anyone. If the BC hadn't been run on synthetics two years running, I think Z would be nothing more than a nice novelty story.

There is no way anyone can tell me running in a prep race at Delmar on polytrack against nothing is a good way to prepare for the Breeder's Cup.

I think Zenyatta is probably running in the BC Classic or not running in the BC at all. IMO the only way they are going to consider the Ladies Classic is if they lose in the Personal Ensign and Rachel refused to run in the Classic and give them a rematch there. Then they "might" consider a rematch in the Ladies as a possibility.

I think the winner of the Personal Ensign would have a huge leg up in the year end voting if neither wins the Classic because I don't think voters will put nearly as much weight on who finishes ahead of who in the Classic if neither wins.

If you really think Zenyatta is nothing more than nice novelty story, then I am happy to be competing with you at the betting windows.

[Tom]

Very good strategic move by Jackson, by the way, a simple statement with no demands. If you want us, this is where we will be. At the most famous racetrack in the country running a mile and a quarter on dirt.

Deja vous.....the Apple Blossom. If you want us, this is where we will be.

Unless my stablemate third stringer kicks yer arse first! :sleeping:

[cj]

I think Zenyatta is probably running in the BC Classic or not running in the BC at all. IMO the only way they are going to consider the Ladies Classic is if they lose in the Personal Ensign and Rachel refused to run in the Classic and give them a rematch there. Then they "might" consider a rematch in the Ladies as a possibility.

I think the winner of the Personal Ensign would have a huge leg up in the year end voting if neither wins the Classic because I don't think voters will put nearly as much weight on who finishes ahead of who in the Classic if neither wins.

If you really think Zenyatta is nothing more than nice novelty story, then I am happy to be competing with you at the betting windows.

If neither wins the Classic it won't matter because neither will win Horse of the Year, leg up or not. Both have accomplished very little so far this year towards that end. The only chance either has is to win the Classic. So what good does the "leg up" do?

I don't think either really cares about the top female award, do you? I mean one has won it twice and the other is Horse of the Year.

As for your last dig, good luck with that. If the fake surfaces had never come about, Zenyatta would be a very nice horse with at least a few losses on her resume and I doubt she would have ever won a Classic. Maybe I'm wrong, but there would certainly be no value betting on her so I'm not sure why you think so little of my opinion.

[cj]

Deja vous.....the Apple Blossom. If you want us, this is where we will be.

Unless my stablemate third stringer kicks yer arse first! :sleeping:

One horse was clearly not fit. Both are in the prime of the season now. Trying to stage the race at the last minute in April was silly.

[classhandicapper]

Deja vous.....the Apple Blossom. If you want us, this is where we will be.

Unless my stablemate third stringer kicks yer arse first! :sleeping:

:lol:

I think she's going to run at Del Mar unless they are very unhappy with the track because it's easier to stay home. They also have to be under some pressure to run her at home. She'll have one more race after that and then if she's doing well she'll go in the Classic. I really don't see the upside to shipping to Saratoga. If they both keep winning they'll meet in the Classic and both will be peaking.

[GregReinhart]

They just said on TVG that the Personal Ensign is "not under consideration" for Zenyatta.

[tzipi]

Well if they stay away from Rachel at a distance she supposedly cant win at then I hope they are keeping her out west to run against the boys or top races and not the G3 girls. I want to see Zen in the big races if they don;t want to come out for the 1 1/4 race.

[tzipi]

Deja vous.....the Apple Blossom. If you want us, this is where we will be.

Unless my stablemate third stringer kicks yer arse first! :sleeping:

Most 3rd stringers have beaten top horses in history off of long layoffs. Their not in top form. Where did the horse go? Why haven't they faced Rachel every race since then to beat her?? Anyway,I wish Zen picked her own races :) . The talent of this girl is mostly wasted. She could be doing SO much more.

[classhandicapper]

If neither wins the Classic it won't matter because neither will win Horse of the Year, leg up or not. Both have accomplished very little so far this year towards that end. The only chance either has is to win the Classic. So what good does the "leg up" do?

I don't think either really cares about the top female award, do you? I mean one has won it twice and the other is Horse of the Year.

As for your last dig, good luck with that. If the fake surfaces had never come about, Zenyatta would be a very nice horse with at least a few losses on her resume and I doubt she would have ever won a Classic. Maybe I'm wrong, but there would certainly be no value betting on her so I'm not sure why you think so little of my opinion.

IMO both camps are clearly interested in HOTY, but it's pretty obvious both camps would also very much like to demonstrate which of the two is better on terms they are comfortable with.

Sorry about the dig, but I think it's obvious you are very biased against synthetic racing. That's all well and good because lots of people don't like it. I used to hate it too. However, I think that bias about the surface is clouding your thinking about the quality of the horses that are competing on it.

The racing on synthetic in CA has been comprised of some high quality dirt horses that have compiled similar records in and out of CA on multiple surfaces, high quality turf horses (including some Euro shippers) that have handled those surfaces well, and a few horses that just seem to love synthetics.

When those horses have shipped east many have more than held their own and improved their figures as you would expect given the different style of racing.

I'm not so sure why it's so hard for some people to concede that Zenyatta is a great mare that has beaten some very solid fields regardless of whether she eventually proves to be a great mare on dirt too. IMO it's insulting to call her a novelty act and it's also clearly far from the truth.

Zarkova was a great mare but she'd probably have a spotty record on dirt too.

Ruffian would probably have gotten her ass kicked on turf.

It just doesn't matter.

[tubesockshakur]

This is the sad state of racing these days. Avoid places you might not win at all costs when you have a good horse. When did losing a few races become so terrible? It didn't seem to stop the RA camp.
i agree, as a big Z fan and a RA fan.....the big mare has NOTHING to prove or gain running at del mar. she has maybe 3 races left in her career, take your skirt off mr. moss.

[Robert Goren]

One horse was clearly not fit. Both are in the prime of the season now. Trying to stage the race at the last minute in April was silly. Is NYRA willing or any of the other summer tracks willing to put $5 million to make this race happen like Oaklawn was. From what I have seen there is still one horse who is clearly not fit, but when it comes to picking a winner of a horse race my opinions are often wrong which why I need reload my twinspires account.;)

[tzipi]

Is NYRA willing or any of the other summer tracks willing to put $5 million to make this race happen like Oaklawn was. From what I have seen there is still one horse who is clearly not fit, but when it comes to picking a winner of a horse race my opinions are often wrong which why I need reload my twinspires account.;)

Well if Zen is not fit,they should keep her at home. If RA is not fit,then Zens people should bring her to the 1 1/4 race to easily win and end the debate.

[Robert Goren]

Well if Zen is not fit,they should keep her at home. If RA is not fit,then Zens people should bring her to the 1 1/4 race to easily win and end the debate. The debate will be ended when there is enough money on the line. Why in the world should they come and race RA for a small purse when RA wouldn't run against them for big one. While RA's fans may want this race there sign that RA's owner wants it yet. He still playing it by ear hoping that she will show the form she had last year. Some place she got to throw a big race or they won't run her against Zen.

[PaceAdvantage]

Money has nothing to do with it...and anyone thinking it does needs to tell me why, considering the bank accounts of Moss and Jackson.

[tzipi]

The debate will be ended when there is enough money on the line. Why in the world should they come and race RA for a small purse when RA wouldn't run against them for big one. While RA's fans may want this race there sign that RA's owner wants it yet. He still playing it by ear hoping that she will show the form she had last year. Some place she got to throw a big race or they won't run her against Zen.

Was just giving my opinion Robert. Always respected your thoughts. My opinion on this though is NEITHER camp needs money. It's the last thing these owners need or really run for :D . If Zens camp runs for big purses they could run in the Pacific Classic each year. "Run gainst them for the big one". RA was a 3yo filly who ran a hard campaign and the "big one" was a BC race on a turf surface with mostly turf horses entered. If RA had an easy campaign last year and the BC was on a dirt surface,I would agree 110% with you Robert. No doubt!
I was just saying it would be a great race to go against eachother. That's all. I mean if you meant RA was not fit, ok then. All I was saying was Zens camp should just go there then for the fitting 1 1/4 race and win easily. Game over. Most everyone said RA would never even be entered in a 1 1/4 race so the camp could stay away from Zenyatta. So it's a great thing for people to see she's entered and a hope they'll be a race.

It was JMO opinion Robert on the fit talk. I talk sour about the camps sometimes and my opinons on them, not the talented horses. The horses dont pick their races. Hey who knows if RA will make it as it is a time away. Well see what happens. Either wasy I hope they run together whether its the Ensign,BC or whatever :ThmbUp:

[chickenhead]

you don't get a big bank account by not caring about money. :)

I hope she skips Del Mar and heads out there, will be great for the sport, and Zenyatta should run at Saratoga.

[PaceAdvantage]

you don't get a big bank account by not caring about money. :)

I hope she skips Del Mar and heads out there, will be great for the sport, and Zenyatta should run at Saratoga.Well, the extra money IS nice...I suppose it might be a very minor motivating factor...but at this point, when we're talking Saratoga, Rachel and Zenyatta, money should certainly not be a factor. Hell, they're even giving Zenyatta her much vaunted 10f that her fans think will lead to Rachel's humiliating destruction if racing against the big Z.

[classhandicapper]

Money has nothing to do with it...and anyone thinking it does needs to tell me why, considering the bank accounts of Moss and Jackson.

Well at least we agree on one thing. ;)

1. Both camps have great horses that primarily race on opposite coasts and on different surfaces.

2. Both camps have long range plans to run in the Breeder's Cup this year and are trying to bring their horses up to the race fresh, fit, and ready to fire a peak effort.

3. Neither camp is going to jeopardize their chances for HOTY, best mare of the year, or a peak effort in the Breeder's Cup just in order to satisfy the curiosity of the fans on the PaceAdvantage forums.

The best chance of them meeting before the BC was always if they were both doing really well and both had a very good reason to be in the same place at the same time. At best money would be a tiebreaker. Since their specialty is two different things on opposite sides of the country, that was never very likely.

The real curiosity is whether Zenyatta's final prep will be on dirt or synthetic. Many of the pure turf/synthetic horses have flopped badly in the Derby coming off synthetic, but some of the more versatile ones have run bang up races including Street Sense.

[Robert Goren]

"Money is the way we keep score" Art Linkletter

[slew101]

Zenyatta's crew still has time to change their minds. The owners/trainer should come to their senses and ship her for the race.

[OntheRail]

Uh, and why didn't they ship west to run in the Classic? :lol:

It's not a matter of avoiding losing. It's a matter of making sure you don't ship somewhere to face your main opponent for year end honors/historical significance and play with a stacked deck. If they were afraid of losing they would have run in the Ladies Classic last year.

I actually think this is a reasonable spot for them try if they aren't satisfied with the track at Del Mar. 10F would make it more neutral to see who is better on dirt. We pretty much already know who is better on synthetic.

If you think the NY riders and track maintenance personal haven't stacked the deck against certain horses/owners in the past due to politics you aren't paying close enough attention.

Like they do in Cali for Moss and Zenyatta play with the track so it favored her even more. Maybe last year hangin' out in Cali made sense but this year with the comments made by Moss and the fact the BC is at Churchill staying in Cali is as disappointing as her competition had been in her first couple of races this year and most last. :bang:

[tzipi]

Well at least we agree on one thing. ;)

1. Both camps have great horses that primarily race on opposite coasts and on different surfaces.

2. Both camps have long range plans to run in the Breeder's Cup this year and are trying to bring their horses up to the race fresh, fit, and ready to fire a peak effort.

3. Neither camp is going to jeopardize their chances for HOTY, best mare of the year, or a peak effort in the Breeder's Cup just in order to satisfy the curiosity of the fans on the PaceAdvantage forums.

The best chance of them meeting before the BC was always if they were both doing really well and both had a very good reason to be in the same place at the same time. At best money would be a tiebreaker. Since their specialty is two different things on opposite sides of the country, that was never very likely.

The real curiosity is whether Zenyatta's final prep will be on dirt or synthetic. Many of the pure turf/synthetic horses have flopped badly in the Derby coming off synthetic, but some of the more versatile ones have run bang up races including Street Sense.

All very true Class :ThmbUp:

[classhandicapper]

Like they do in Cali for Moss and Zenyatta play with the track so it favored her even more.


I haven't followed CA racing on a daily basis for 35 years, but I doubt it's a prevalent in CA because traditionally the best horses from CA and elsewhere have shipped to NY to take on NYRA horses, not the other way around.

However, I feel confident in saying that if Rachel went to CA she would NOT get an easy lead and it wouldn't be a speed on the rail track. :lol:

If she was mine and I took her out there, I would definitely make some under my breath comment in the pre race hype about the potential of my horse getting mugged up front. Some people would get really pissed at that suggestion, but I doubt she'd get mugged. ;)

[Hardspun]

I don't think they will race until the BC in my opinion. If I owned either one I would wait until then because of the status of the race. I would want to beat the other horse with males in the race too just to shut everyone up on who is better. I will also be laughing on the sideline if they run each other in the BC and Quality Road stomps both.

[Hedevar]

Just wondering what race Zenyatta will use to prep for the BCC? I agree with PA and CJ that she will not be in the race and have also said so for many months.

[tucker6]

I agree with PA and CJ that she will not be in the race and have also said so for many months.
I have to agree. I wonder what the malady will be that prevents her from defending her crown. What a sad ownership team she has.

[tucker6]

I don't think they will race until the BC in my opinion. If I owned either one I would wait until then because of the status of the race. I would want to beat the other horse with males in the race too just to shut everyone up on who is better. I will also be laughing on the sideline if they run each other in the BC and Quality Road stomps both.
I'm not sure who wins the race, but I won't be betting on either lady. This is shaping up to be a stronger race than last year and it is on dirt. To me, that eliminates Zenyatta. A great horse, but this isn't her race, and her ownership team knows it. As for Rachel, I'm not sure she will have enough left at the head of the stretch to beat the boys to the finish. Like I said, they'll be grade 1 boys in this race on their preferred surface. Not like last year.

[sandpit]

I'm not sure who wins the race, but I won't be betting on either lady. This is shaping up to be a stronger race than last year and it is on dirt. To me, that eliminates Zenyatta. A great horse, but this isn't her race, and her ownership team knows it. As for Rachel, I'm not sure she will have enough left at the head of the stretch to beat the boys to the finish. Like I said, they'll be grade 1 boys in this race on their preferred surface. Not like last year.

I agree, it is usually a supremely demanding race and even big-timers like Bernardini got eyeballed and couldn't get the job done.

[cj]

I'm not sure who wins the race, but I won't be betting on either lady. This is shaping up to be a stronger race than last year and it is on dirt. To me, that eliminates Zenyatta. A great horse, but this isn't her race, and her ownership team knows it. As for Rachel, I'm not sure she will have enough left at the head of the stretch to beat the boys to the finish. Like I said, they'll be grade 1 boys in this race on their preferred surface. Not like last year.

I agree, I don't think either one has much chance of winning the Classic.

[sandpit]

Money has nothing to do with it...and anyone thinking it does needs to tell me why, considering the bank accounts of Moss and Jackson.

I don't know what motivates the Zenyatta camp, it could well be money. Jackson however definitely has made it known that it is a factor in where he races RA.

From his own mouth:

On Monouth Park and the Haskell:
"Well, of course money is a reward for having taken the risk (in running in the Haskell) and I advocated that it would be nice if they increased the purse," he said.

Later in 2009:
"True tradition is here," he said of Saratoga. "Philadelphia deserves credit for stepping up both in the purse and in creativity. Of course, they've got a lot of support (slot revenues). The NYRA has been very good to us, but I wish the purses were higher."

To his credit, or resignation that he wasn't going to be able to force NYRA to find money they didn't have, he ran in the Woodward anyway.

This year, RA ran in the Monmouth race for one reason only: they jacked up the purse for her. No way he runs in the ungraded race if it was only $150K.

[Hedevar]

I don't know what motivates the Zenyatta camp, it could well be money. Jackson however definitely has made it known that it is a factor in where he races RA.

From his own mouth:

On Monouth Park and the Haskell:
"Well, of course money is a reward for having taken the risk (in running in the Haskell) and I advocated that it would be nice if they increased the purse," he said.

Later in 2009:
"True tradition is here," he said of Saratoga. "Philadelphia deserves credit for stepping up both in the purse and in creativity. Of course, they've got a lot of support (slot revenues). The NYRA has been very good to us, but I wish the purses were higher."

To his credit, or resignation that he wasn't going to be able to force NYRA to find money they didn't have, he ran in the Woodward anyway.

This year, RA ran in the Monmouth race for one reason only: they jacked up the purse for her. No way he runs in the ungraded race if it was only $150K.

True, but money was not even mentioned regarding the Personal Ensign. No demands. Just a race. It's up to Zenyatta's connections.

[slew101]

Why would they possibly not run in the Classic if she's healthy? Isn't her schedule geared to run her in the Classic? They know they can't win HOY without that race.

If they skip Saratoga, don't you think the plan is to win two soft races, then try and win one tough one on dirt?


I have to agree. I wonder what the malady will be that prevents her from defending her crown. What a sad ownership team she has.

[Hedevar]

Why would they possibly not run in the Classic if she's healthy? Isn't her schedule geared to run her in the Classic? They know they can't win HOY without that race.

If they skip Saratoga, don't you think the plan is to win two soft races, then try and win one tough one on dirt?

What two races for example?

[slew101]

The Del Mar race and the Lady's Secret at Oak Tree? Same schedule as last year.

What two races for example?

[Hedevar]

The Del Mar race and the Lady's Secret at Oak Tree? Same schedule as last year.

Great one on Polytrack and one on ProRide. That should set her up for CD.

[slew101]

If they pass on Saratoga, they obviously don't care about getting her a race on dirt. I still think they will run at Saratoga. If they don't, shame on them.

Great one on Polytrack and one on ProRide. That should set her up for CD.

[OntheRail]

This year, RA ran in the Monmouth race for one reason only: they jacked up the purse for her. No way he runs in the ungraded race if it was only $150K.
But I bet the Manmouth Lady's Secret will not be an ungraded stakes for long. Class and high purse = a nod from the Grading Comity ;) .

[PaceAdvantage]

I don't know what motivates the Zenyatta camp, it could well be money. Jackson however definitely has made it known that it is a factor in where he races RA.

From his own mouth:

On Monouth Park and the Haskell:
"Well, of course money is a reward for having taken the risk (in running in the Haskell) and I advocated that it would be nice if they increased the purse," he said.

Later in 2009:
"True tradition is here," he said of Saratoga. "Philadelphia deserves credit for stepping up both in the purse and in creativity. Of course, they've got a lot of support (slot revenues). The NYRA has been very good to us, but I wish the purses were higher."

To his credit, or resignation that he wasn't going to be able to force NYRA to find money they didn't have, he ran in the Woodward anyway.

This year, RA ran in the Monmouth race for one reason only: they jacked up the purse for her. No way he runs in the ungraded race if it was only $150K.I guess I'm being naïve. I would have thought the tradition of Saratoga and the chance for these two marvelous animals to finally face off against each other would be enough incentive.

Plus, I would think that team Zenyatta and all the hardcore Z fans on this board would be absolutely SALIVATING to face Rachel going 10 furlongs.

What more do they want? The BC is on dirt this year, so a race on dirt should be preferred. What good is racing at Del Mar going to do for Zenyatta, the track that had "holes" in it just a few weeks ago and had to be closed for morning training?

No way I'd want to run my best horse (or any horse for that matter) over that track when I have other options at my disposal.

[cj]

It is a tough decision. Here is a recent pic of John Shirreffs contemplating a trip to Saratoga:

http://www.pacefigures.com/images/js.jpg

[KingChas]

Deja vous.....the Apple Blossom. If you want us, this is where we will be.

Unless my stablemate third stringer kicks yer arse first! :sleeping:


Zenyatta has won the last two runnings of the Clement Hirsch and appears to be approaching the race this year in peak form. Friday, she worked in company with Galayo, a 4-year-old maiden half-brother to 2005 Kentucky Derby winner Giacomo and the 2007 Santa Anita Derby winner Tiago. Galayo has not started since December 2008.

When the workout began, Zenyatta was in front for a few strides, but was quickly passed by Galayo, who led by four lengths on the turn. Zenyatta caught her stablemate in early stretch, drawing off to finish about six lengths in front. Sherriffs timed Zenyatta galloping out seven furlongs in 1:27.19. Galayo was timed in 1:15.40.

Oops,Galayo's a boy can't send him................ :eek: :lol:

[KingChas]

Money has nothing to do with it...and anyone thinking it does needs to tell me why, considering the bank accounts of Moss and Jackson.

Not money, ego.

Since RA is defending HOY ,you come to her.
She has earned that.
For now............................. ;)

[Java Gold@TFT]

What two races for example?
Sheriffs claims that the Beldame is on the radar somewhere. Of course that's the same radar used by meteorologists to predict the weather. They'll end up the same as last year. Why ship to NY in October then back again for the BC? He won't drop her off in KY to stable for that amount of time.

[Fager Fan]

The point CJ was making was that if they didn't ship to Saratoga they would be doing so to avoid losing.

The point I was making was that it never makes sense to ship to a place where the odds are stacked against you if there is great significance in the outcome.

Rachel's connections didn't ship west because they felt they had HOTY wrapped up, she was dead tired, and they would be facing Zenyatta with the deck stacked against them. They weren't avoiding losing or a challenge in the generic sense. It was logical thinking.

It's OK for the Zenyatta camp to be logical too. They should examine the field and probable conditions in the Saratoga race and compare them to the races at home before committing.

That'd be wrong, of course, considering they clearly stated in MAY that they weren't going to go to the BC because it was being run on synthetics.

[Grits]

Man, are the revelers gonna have a meltdown now!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

So horribly insulting you are, Cj. You are vile, not to mention inciting. Remember how offensive the duck photoshop job was?

I swear if you ever decide to become an activist, we're all screwed-- there'll be civil unrest like this country has never seen.

Poor ClassH--worried 'bout his blood pressure; its gonna hit the stratosphere. Hang in there, Class, it'll pass, darlin'. Promise. :)

[tucker6]

That'd be wrong, of course, considering they clearly stated in MAY that they weren't going to go to the BC because it was being run on synthetics.
Hey wait a minute. Are you attempting to insert facts into this thread?? If so, please leave at once. This is a fantasy thread for the true believers. ;)

[tucker6]

Why would they possibly not run in the Classic if she's healthy? Isn't her schedule geared to run her in the Classic? They know they can't win HOY without that race.

If they skip Saratoga, don't you think the plan is to win two soft races, then try and win one tough one on dirt?
Slew, I guess my thoughts center around my belief that in a 12-14 horse field for the BCC at 10F on dirt against a good group of G1 males, Zenyatta is likely to finish between 5th and 7th, and probably about 10 lengths back. If there is a chance that is true, and I think there certainly is, doesn't that last race permanently tarnish Zenyatta's record as the history books get ridden??

Zenyatta is a specialty horse. Nothing wrong with that. Dr Fager was a specialist at one mile. But to think a poly specialty horse can come to a dirt track with minimal prep on dirt, and beat a good group of G1 males and RA is asking me to suspend my belief in gravity. And I haven't even begun to add in the fact that Zenyatta's style is well off the pace, which as we know is not a perfect one on dirt in a G1.

Not saying I can't be wrong. Heck, everyone should be begging for Z to enter the Classic. She'll drive down the price on give someone good odds for the winning horse.

[slew101]

One thing I believe from that camp is the BC Classic goal. Otherwise, they'll be sulking on HOY night again. Yes, she'll be up against it but I see no reason she can't win. I doubt the connections, not the horse.

I also agree Sheriff's line about the Beldame at Belmont appears silly. Why hook RA or anyone else in a 1-turn race at Belmont when he'd have to ship her to Belmont, back to Calif., then back to Kentucky when all along he's worried about shipping for one race? Now he wants to ship for back-to-back races?

[QUOTE=tucker6]Slew, I guess my thoughts center around my belief that in a 12-14 horse field for the BCC at 10F on dirt against a good group of G1 males, Zenyatta is likely to finish between 5th and 7th, and probably about 10 lengths back. If there is a chance that is true, and I think there certainly is, doesn't that last race permanently tarnish Zenyatta's record as the history books get ridden??

[cj]

The whole shipping thing is the silliest thing I have heard in years. The campaign of both horses has been a major disappointment, but at least Rachel's camp had the excuse of a few losses. Zenyatta's camp has the Rockies and Rail Trip.

[bisket]

after rachel lost an allowance and a grade 2 she's not the target anymore. if she wins out the rest of the year, including the ladies classic zen still has older filly and mare. running in that race at monmouth last out pretty much eliminated rachel from post season honors. rachel only has one graded win this year. she's a lightwieght in relation to final year awards unless zen falls on her face these last few races. the colts are the target, and i think she beats them. barring unforseen circumstances in the classic.

[Hedevar]

after rachel lost an allowance and a grade 2 she's not the target anymore. if she wins out the rest of the year, including the ladies classic zen still has older filly and mare. running in that race at monmouth last out pretty much eliminated rachel from post season honors. rachel only has one graded win this year. she's a lightwieght in relation to final year awards unless zen falls on her face these last few races. the colts are the target, and i think she beats them. barring unforseen circumstances in the classic.

I have to admit, I enjoy your posts immensely. They always brighten my day.

[mostpost]

Zenyatta is a specialty horse. Nothing wrong with that. Dr Fager was a specialist at one mile.
You need to brush up on your racing history. Dr. Fager won eight of ten starts at distances over a mile. He won three of five at a mile and a quarter.
The horse which won those two races was one of the best who ever raced, Damascus.
In both the '67 Woodword and the '68 Brooklyn Handicap, Damascus was aided by the presence of the rabbit Hedavar (World record holder at a mile). In the Brooklyn Handicap Dr. Fager carried 135 pounds; five more than Damascus.
Dr. Fager was great at a mile. Dr. Fager was great at everything.

[tucker6]

unless zen falls on her face these last few races. the colts are the target, and i think she beats them. barring unforseen circumstances in the classic.
Does entering the starting gate for the Classic fall under this category?? :lol:

[Hedevar]

You need to brush up on your racing history. Dr. Fager won eight of ten starts at distances over a mile. He won three of five at a mile and a quarter.
The horse which won those two races was one of the best who ever raced, Damascus.
In both the '67 Woodword and the '68 Brooklyn Handicap, Damascus was aided by the presence of the rabbit Hedavar (World record holder at a mile). In the Brooklyn Handicap Dr. Fager carried 135 pounds; five more than Damascus.
Dr. Fager was great at a mile. Dr. Fager was great at everything.

You are absolutely right mostpost. The Doctor was the best horse I ever saw including Secretariat. The discussion was on another matter so I did not raise the issue, but no one could have beat the Doctor at 1 1/4 miles without a rabbit.

[thaskalos]

Slew, I guess my thoughts center around my belief that in a 12-14 horse field for the BCC at 10F on dirt against a good group of G1 males, Zenyatta is likely to finish between 5th and 7th, and probably about 10 lengths back. If there is a chance that is true, and I think there certainly is, doesn't that last race permanently tarnish Zenyatta's record as the history books get ridden??

Tucker...what if Zenyatta takes on that "12-14 horse field for the BCC at 10F on dirt against a good group of G1 males"...AND WINS!

Does that affirm her place in history...or will she STILL be criticized for not running on the dirt more often?

By "her place in history" I mean...best mare in recent memory...and best horse currently in training.

[Hedevar]

Tucker...what if Zenyatta takes on that "12-14 horse field for the BCC at 10F on dirt against a good group of G1 males"...AND WINS!

Does that affirm her place in history...or will she STILL be criticized for not running on the dirt more often?

By "affirm her place in history" I mean...best mare in recent memory.

She'll get her recognition. But many of us just do not think it will happen. If she proves us wrong, so be it.

[tzipi]

after rachel lost an allowance and a grade 2 she's not the target anymore. if she wins out the rest of the year, including the ladies classic zen still has older filly and mare. running in that race at monmouth last out pretty much eliminated rachel from post season honors. rachel only has one graded win this year. she's a lightwieght in relation to final year awards unless zen falls on her face these last few races. the colts are the target, and i think she beats them. barring unforseen circumstances in the classic.

Who are the targets then basically every race? Lower grade girls? Their better and more competition targets than RA? She's a "lightweight" compared to the competition they are putting Zen up against?? :D Plus what has happened since the two narrow loses off the long layoff.
If you want to knock camps that's totally fine because they deserve it sometimes but knocking RA as a "lightweight"? No, lightweights are the sub par lower beyer horses horses who some run against.

[Hedevar]

Who are the targets then basically every race? Lower grade girls? Their better and more competition targets than RA? She's a "lightweight" compared to the competition they are putting Zen up against?? :D Plus what has happened since the two narrow loses off the long layoff.
If you want to knock camps that's totally fine because they deserve it sometimes but knocking RA as a "lightweight"? No, lightweights are the sub par lower beyer horses horses who some run against.

tzipi,

You may as be talking to the wall.

[tzipi]

tzipi,

You may as be talking to the wall.

I guess so. Was just shocked to hear a 100+ beyer horse who's clearly a great talent is a "lightweight" compared to the "greats" Zens camp puts her up against just about every race. Hmmm

[tucker6]

You need to brush up on your racing history. Dr. Fager won eight of ten starts at distances over a mile. He won three of five at a mile and a quarter.

He won 11 of 12 at a mile or less (counting the disqualification where he finished first), thus my statement that his best was near a mile. I didn't say he couldn't get 10F. I said his best was somewhat less. I certainly wouldn't disagree with someone who argued for 9F.

[tucker6]

You are absolutely right mostpost. The Doctor was the best horse I ever saw including Secretariat. The discussion was on another matter so I did not raise the issue, but no one could have beat the Doctor at 1 1/4 miles without a rabbit.
I bet Secretariat would have beaten the doctor at 10F even as a three year old. The Bid as a four year old.

[tucker6]

She'll get her recognition. But many of us just do not think it will happen. If she proves us wrong, so be it.
Agreed. I'll give her high praise if she wins. I just don't see that happening.

[Hedevar]

I bet Secretariat would have beaten the doctor at 10F even as a three year old. The Bid as a four year old.

We'll never be able to prove it, but in a match race you would be wrong. It is irrelevant that I saw all three race.

[thaskalos]

I guess so. Was just shocked to hear a 100+ beyer horse who's clearly a great talent is a "lightweight" compared to the "greats" Zens camp puts her up against just about every race. Hmmm Compared to Zenyatta, Rachel IS a lightweight...by at least 200 lbs.

I think that's what the bisket meant...:)

[Hedevar]

Compared to Zenyatta, Rachel IS a lightweight...by at least 200 lbs.

I think that's what the bisket meant...:)

Thanks for the clarification. Someone has to translate for bisket.

[tucker6]

We'll never be able to prove it, but in a match race you would be wrong. It is irrelevant that I saw all three race.
Agreed, it is irrelevant. :)

[PaceAdvantage]

after rachel lost an allowance and a grade 2 she's not the target anymore. if she wins out the rest of the year, including the ladies classic zen still has older filly and mare. running in that race at monmouth last out pretty much eliminated rachel from post season honors. rachel only has one graded win this year. she's a lightwieght in relation to final year awards unless zen falls on her face these last few races. the colts are the target, and i think she beats them. barring unforseen circumstances in the classic.If Trevor Denman were calling this reply of yours, he'd surely cap it with "Look at da bizkit, pure insanity in motion."

Neither horse has done much of anything this year. Zenyatta is certainly ahead of Rachel in terms of year end F&M honors at this point, but it is nowhere near an insurmountable lead by any stretch of the (sane) imagination.

[Jasonm921]

Malibu Prayer another Rachel victim who has won a grade 1. I remember when the argument was who has she beaten? Now look it up.

[thaskalos]

Malibu Prayer another Rachel victim who has won a grade 1. I remember when the argument was who has she beaten? Now look it up.Haven't we already established that the F+M Grade 1s today ain't much?

Zenyatta has won so many of them...and she STILL can't get no respect!

[cj]

Haven't we already established that the F+M Grade 1s today ain't much?

Zenyatta has won so many of them...and she STILL can't get no respect!

I'm stealing this from DrugSalvatore who does post here from time to time:

If not for Zenyatta getting er done ...

* Taptam would win the Grade 1 Apple Blossom and be soundly beaten next out in an ungraded stake at Delaware Park.

* Dance to my Tune would win the Grade 1 Santa Margarita instead of being a loser of 20 straight races like she is now.

* Gio Ponti would be a Breeders Cup Classic winner ... if that's not the greatest atrocity I've ever heard in my life .. I don't know what is.

* Lethal Heat would be the winner of the Grade 1 Ladies Secret instead of a horse who is currently on a nine race losing streak. Also - the Ladies Secret Stakes wouldn't be renamed after a horse that is still running like it is now.

* Anabaa's Creations would be the winner of the Grade 1 Clement L Hirsch - instead of being a 6-year-old who is still eligible for an N3X alw race - and has lost 13 of her last 14 starts.

* Briecat would be the winner of the Grade 1 Vanity Handicap. She was last seen running 6th at Turf Paradise in a 50K stake. A typical last place finish for her.

* Cocoa Beach would be a Breeders Cup Distaff winner. She was off the board in the 65K Floral Park Stakes at Belmont Park as the 1/9 favorite in her next start on dirt. That was her next and last start on dirt.

* Model would have won the '08 Clement L Hirsch by 5+ lengths before running a well beaten 3rd to Wake Up Maggie in an ungraded stakes race at the same meet a few weeks later.

* Santa Tarista would have won the Milady one start before losing by 26 lengths at Delaware Park next out.

* Brownie Points would be the '08 Apple Blossom winner. Her next dirt start would see her running a well beaten 5th behind Miss Issella.


Sure, Zenyatta has never faced Rags To Riches, Nashoba's Key, or Rachel Alexandra even once ..... but she has prevented so many incredible racing injustices from occurring that it absolutely boggles the mind.

[JustRalph]

Wow! What a post............ I must have missed that first time around

[PaceAdvantage]

I believe some might call that "perspective"...makes me kind of miss DrugS...

[WinterTriangle]

Zenyatta has won so many of them...and she STILL can't get no respect!

World Thoroughbred Rankings have her as #5 in the world as of end of July.

Sounds like respect to me.

[thaskalos]

World Thoroughbred Rankings have her as #5 in the world as of end of July.

Sounds like respect to me.Sorry...I should have written: "respect on paceadvantage.com".

[PaceAdvantage]

Sorry...I should have written: "respect on paceadvantage.com".The way some of you talk Zenyatta up, I'm surprised she's only ranked #5 in the world.

I think #5 in the world is a bit of disrespect, don't you think? And actually, she's tied for 5th along with two others. So she could be 7th.

Interesting that they rank Quality Road third.

[thaskalos]

Interesting that they rank Quality Road third.Mistake...which Zenyatta will rectify in November.

[PaceAdvantage]

Mistake...which Zenyatta will rectify in November.So paceadvantage.com isn't the only place then... :lol:

[boogazie]

That list is nonsense because it blissfully ignores a lot of other horses Zenyatta beat out.

Off the top of my head, didn't Tough Tiz's Sis win by 12 length or so next start out on dirt. And didn't Life is Sweet trash the competition in the Ladies BCC?

Why exclude those?

Also, I don't get what's wrong with Gio Ponti being a breeders cup winner. Didn't he win 5 G1 last year? Given that good turf form usually means good synthetic form, how is that an atrocity. Unless it's the "I hate everything that doesn't run on dirt" syndrome again.