Will it be Zenyatta vs. Rachel in Saratoga's Personal Ensign Stakes?

[andymays]

Race with Rachel Alexandra and Zenyatta may happen next month at Saratoga's Personal Ensign Stakes


http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/more_sports/2010/07/26/2010-07-26_rachelzenyatta_talks_heat_up_again.html

Excerpt:

The Rachel Alexandra-Zenyatta matchup could finally take place on Aug. 29 in the Personal Ensign Stakes at Saratoga.

"We have spoken with Zenyatta's connections regarding races at Saratoga and Belmont," said New York Racing Association president and CEO Charles Hayward, who noted that the Personal Ensign would remain at the mile-and one-quarter distance.

The purse is currently $400,000, but that could increase. NYRA increased the purse of last year's Woodward from $500,000 to $750,000 to get Rachel to race at Saratoga.

But Hayward added: "It's too early to speculate on the purse."

With concerns over the synthetic surface at Del Mar, Zenyatta connections still haven't made up their mind where the big mare will start next , while Rachel Alexandra's camp indicated there's a good chance she'll start next at the Spa.

"I have no idea," said Dottie Ingordo-Shirreffs, the wife of trainer John Shirreffs and the racing manager for Jerry and Ann Moss, who own the undefeated Zenyatta. "We're trying to decide that. We have not confirmed anything yet. We're looking at several options."

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/more_sports/2010/07/26/2010-07-26_rachelzenyatta_talks_heat_up_again.html#ixzz0un HkekpA

[OTM Al]

Is there a button for "don't care"?

Seriously, the fillies and mares look great again this year. How about a race with those two, Blind Luck, Devil May Care and Evening Jewel. Now that would be worth seeing.

[andymays]

Personal Ensign could be next for Rachel Alexandra - Thoroughbred Times

http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/racing-news/2010/July/25/Personal-Ensign-could-be-next-for-Rachel-Alexandra.aspx

Excerpt:

“She looks great,” Asmussen said. “I was extremely pleased with her race. It was extremely hot. She acted with composure in the paddock and pre-race, she was excellent. I’m very happy with how she relaxed the whole race. I thought she cooled out well and seemed very comfortable, very well within herself.

[andymays]

Is there a button for "don't care"?

Seriously, the fillies and mares look great again this year. How about a race with those two, Blind Luck, Devil May Care and Evening Jewel. Now that would be worth seeing.

It's not the matchup it would have been earlier in the year but it's still a big event that would bring a lot of attention to the Saratoga meet.

I don't see how this could be a non event if the race were to happen.

[Turkoman]

I voted it won't happen, but definitely would love to see it happen. In fact, I feel everyone would have loved to see them go at it multiple times. That would have been awesome for racing.

Turkoman

[MickJ26]

I wouldn't be surprised if neither runs in the Personal Ensign. Life At Ten is a serious racehorse and would ruin their "tomato can" motif.

[andymays]

http://blog.timesunion.com/horseracing/zenyatta-and-rachel-alexandra-at-the-spa-maybe/4904/

Excerpt:

It has been said that her next race will be the Clement Hirsch on Aug. 7 at Del Mar. But, Moss and Shirreffs aren’t wild about the 1 1/8 mile distance and the synthetic track out West. One of the reasons they weren’t wild about New York was the detention barns but they’re gone now.

Right now, I believe Zenyatta would be the favorite to beat Rachel but it’s a race the public has wanted to see for nearly a year. Come on Mr. Music and Mr. Wine, let’s make this happen. For the good of the game.

[OntheRail]

I believe Rachel has a better chance of starting in the Personal Ensign then Zenyatta. I don't believe the 1 1/4 is as big a factor for the filly as some have harped on. She ran well within her self in The Lady Secret she sat off the lead and did not fight Calvin... she looked great in the run out like she wanted more and add on the fact that they have been running her in the 3-4 path for most the race the last couple out... a mile and a quarter is on the radar for them. ;)

I hope the Mosses will come East with Zenyatta but I have my doubts.

If they do I'll be on the rail on way or the other that day. :jump:

[Bruiser1]

I believe Rachel has a better chance of starting in the Personal Ensign then Zenyatta. I don't believe the 1 1/4 is as big a factor for the filly as some have harped on. She ran well within her self in The Lady Secret she sat off the lead and did not fight Calvin... she looked great in the run out like she wanted more and add on the fact that they have been running her in the 3-4 path for most the race the last couple out... a mile and a quarter is on the radar for them. ;)

I hope the Mosses will come East with Zenyatta but I have my doubts.

If they do I'll be on the rail on way or the other that day. :jump:

I didn't find Rachel's win visually impressive. But, I have found Zenyatta's runs this year impressive.

Last year I really thought Rachel was the better horse. Now, I'm pretty sure she's not. I'd like to see Rachel prove she's back at the top of her game (against some better competition) before taking on Zenyatta.

I'm thinking the best place for them to meet would be later on in the year....at the Breeder's Cup.

[andtheyreoff]

I for one would rather see them in the Woodward. A race with Rachel Alexandra, Zenyatta, Quality Road, Blame, Haynesfield, Rail Trip, and Mine that Bird would be one to see.

The field for the Personal Ensign would not have the depth the Woodward would have.

[Audioslavery]

Not to be 'that guy on the internet' but one of our family friends who does photography at all the big tracks across the country recently took photos of Zen at her stable. He claims that they sounded pretty dead set on sending her to Saratoga.

[Hedevar]

Not to be 'that guy on the internet' but one of our family friends who does photography at all the big tracks across the country recently took photos of Zen at her stable. He claims that they sounded pretty dead set on sending her to Saratoga.

"Stop the presses", The Rockies have crumbled!

[Hanover1]

With utmost respect to all connections, it makes you wonder exactly what IS next from either camp. Comments such as "She doesn't ship well" while explaining the altitude of the Rockies and its effects, seems a far cry from "Bring 'em on".....Same bodes for "We are looking at several options".....a far cry from "We are pointing to the.......next".

[tbwinner]

I voted no. I, as any real horseplayer and race-follower would say, would love to see it though, there's no doubt about that.

Wynn in Las Vegas has a wager for a Rachel vs. Zenyatta matchup, RA was favored earlier this year with a -150 line, now it is:

Rachel Alexandra +135
Zenyatta -155

[sandpit]

If I owned Zenyatta, I'd run her in the Arlington Million; then after she won that, it would be on to the Arc...:eek:

[sonnyp]

qualiy road, lookin at lucky, fly down, trappe shot.....all on the improve,and all firing billets all over the place in their works. i didn't even mention the distaff bunch of evening jewel, blind luck and devil may care.

does anybody in their right mind really expect either rachel or zenyatta to go out of their way to tackle any of these ?

as long as they can keep duckin and divin and going for $500,000 don't look for it to happen.

[born2ride]

I voted no. I, as any real horseplayer and race-follower would say, would love to see it though, there's no doubt about that.

Wynn in Las Vegas has a wager for a Rachel vs. Zenyatta matchup, RA was favored earlier this year with a -150 line, now it is:

Rachel Alexandra +135
Zenyatta -155

Similar odds were thrown by Wynn for HOY... we all how well that turned out. ;)

[slew101]

It's been the most logical spot for them to meet for 8 months. I think it will happen.

I don't see either one meeting males until the BC Classic.

[ArlJim78]

I think their hatred of polytrack will get Zenyatta over the rockies.

[jonnielu]

No way, since Rachel can't get 10f in competition, there is absolutely no reason to risk another loss before the BC. They can both duck out of the BC classic if Quality Road is there, and race each other in a distaff event. There is plenty of purse money available to keep them separate until the BC.

jdl

[Audioslavery]

No way, since Rachel can't get 10f in competition, there is absolutely no reason to risk another loss before the BC. They can both duck out of the BC classic if Quality Road is there, and race each other in a distaff event. There is plenty of purse money available to keep them separate until the BC.

jdl

I don't understand this notion of 'ducking' quality road, Zenyatta has to defend her title first and foremost. Not even her conservative connections would prevent that.

Lookin at Lucky has been training better than QR lately. If this keeps up Lucky will be the main threat in November.

[andymays]

I don't understand this notion of 'ducking' quality road, Zenyatta has to defend her title first and foremost. Not even her conservative connections would prevent that.

Lookin at Lucky has been training better than QR lately. If this keeps up Lucky will be the main threat in November.

Boy, I don't know about that. Lookin at Lucky needs to move up between 5 and 10 lengths to contend against Quality Road.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quality Road Blasts Bullet at Saratoga | BloodHorse.com
http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/58081/quality-road-blasts--bullet-at-saratoga

Excerpt:

Quality Road, the top older male in training, continued preparations for the Aug. 7 Whitney Handicap (gr. I) with what trainer Todd Pletcher termed a “spectacular” five-furlong move in a bullet :58.97 at Saratoga over the main track July 26 in company with stablemate Exhi.

“I thought it was spectacular,” Pletcher said.. “The horse is in unbelievable form right now. It’s amazing to see how effortlessly he can do things like he did this morning.”

[andymays]

Big Event Blog: My favorite topic: Of Rachel Alexandra & Zenyatta

http://blog-beb.thoroughbredtimes.com/2010/07/my-favorite-topic-of-rachel-alexandra.html

Excerpt:

The Personal Ensign is interesting to me as a first meeting between Rachel Alexandra and Zenyatta because they could go separate ways in their final start before the Breeders' Cup (Zenyatta to the Overbrook Spinster at Keeneland and Rachel Alexandra to Beldame at Belmont assuming NYRA renews that race). If the Personal Ensign is a battle royale between the two, then everyone would love a rematch in the Breeders' Cup Classic. If one easily handles the other, then the loser can run in Ladies' Classic and winner can go for Horse of the Year the next day.

[trackrat59]

Good gosh I hope they never meet up. I feel this way for several reasons. Number one reason - Can you imagine sifting through all the R & Z threads? No thanks.

[discodog]

You can make what you want out of it, but I would swear Steve A has been doing nothing but getting Rachael ready to go a 1 1/4. I think a lot of people are in for a suprise. Quality Road may be the problem.

[Vinnie]

Quality Road... One year older, a great deal healthier, and literally coming into his own. This one is ridiculous and I can't wait to see him on August 7. :) Every once in a whle you are fortunate to get to see one that is truly capable of turning it out and setting the track on fire "like a Christmas Tree dipped in lighter fluid".

If it isn't readily apparent, I am thrilled and can't wait to see QR in the Whitney.

All the BEST!

[joanied]

I voted 'no', but like everyone else...I hope it happens. We really have a bunch of especially good horses...I don't need to mention names, we know who they are...and 30 years ago, trainers would be looking for spots where most would meet several times during the year...now 80% of the time, they all go in different directions...it's gonna be super to see some of them in the Haskell and some at Saratoga...but will we see Rachel or Zenny there?
First off, both camps will try the waiting game...see who enters into the Personal Ensign, or at least they'll figure who will go and make their desisions accordingly. Does either camp want to face a filly like Life at Ten, while they are facing each other for the first time?
Seems to me the Moss's have no more excuses not to ship east...if they get Zenny to saratoga a couple of weeks out, so she can acclimate, I'm sure she would probably enjoy her time up there...but, there I do think she'd need a little time to do so...from sea level to the mountains of upstate NY, she will indeed need a little time...I think Rachel can get the extra 1/8th of a mile she's never run before...I don't think the 1 1/4 mile will be a problem for her, now that hse's fit and seems happy, now that they've gotten rid of that stupid figure 8, she's realxed and happy.

Audioslavery said something about the Moss's seemed dead set on sending Z to the Spa...but you can take that both ways...dead set for, dead set against...I assume he means against....and that sure would be a shame...why do they 'fear' Saratoga?

Anyway...the Personal Ensign should proove to be a great race with or without the big two...my guess is that Rachel will run, but Zenny stays home...and I really want to be wrong about Zenny.

[joanied]

Boy, I don't know about that. Lookin at Lucky needs to move up between 5 and 10 lengths to contend against Quality Road.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quality Road Blasts Bullet at Saratoga | BloodHorse.com
http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/58081/quality-road-blasts--bullet-at-saratoga

Excerpt:

Quality Road, the top older male in training, continued preparations for the Aug. 7 Whitney Handicap (gr. I) with what trainer Todd Pletcher termed a “spectacular” five-furlong move in a bullet :58.97 at Saratoga over the main track July 26 in company with stablemate Exhi.

“I thought it was spectacular,” Pletcher said.. “The horse is in unbelievable form right now. It’s amazing to see how effortlessly he can do things like he did this morning.”

andy...QR's work went in 58:97....Lucky, working on that crap out there worked the same 5F in 58:60...had he been on dirt, probably would have gone a tad faster...until they meet, I don't think we'll know, but IMO, Lucky will give QR all he can deal with...and Lucky has, IMO, more 'grit' than QR does...I think, eyeball to eyeball, Lucky gets his head in front.
:)

[jonnielu]

I don't understand this notion of 'ducking' quality road, Zenyatta has to defend her title first and foremost. Not even her conservative connections would prevent that.

Lookin at Lucky has been training better than QR lately. If this keeps up Lucky will be the main threat in November.

What's the last race Lookin won?

jdl

[jonnielu]

andy...QR's work went in 58:97....Lucky, working on that crap out there worked the same 5F in 58:60...had he been on dirt, probably would have gone a tad faster...until they meet, I don't think we'll know, but IMO, Lucky will give QR all he can deal with...and Lucky has, IMO, more 'grit' than QR does...I think, eyeball to eyeball, Lucky gets his head in front.
:)

I've got an idea, let's handicap it, what did lucky do in his first three races?

jdl

[SmartyParty]

I think their hatred of polytrack will get Zenyatta over the rockies.

Jerry Moss was quoted that Zenyatta does not like Del Mar. And the BC is not at Oak Tree. Sooo ...

[sandpit]

What's the last race Lookin won?

jdl

Wasn't the last race he ran in, the Preakness?

[bisket]

i'm not so sure lucky is in good form. he had a tough time recovering from the derby, and ran back in two weeks in the preakness. i just think thats gotta take a toll on him. i'm taking a wait and see approach to him going into these next few races. i don't like rachel or quality road at 1 1/4 mile.

[Grits]

I think their hatred of polytrack will get Zenyatta over the rockies.

LOLOL

I'll believe it when something in the press states, "and we have lift off."

(Not to the moon, mind you--but eastward.)

[Vinnie]

I really like Lookin at Lucky alot and he is no doubt one helluva horse. But, and please correct me if I am wrong here, doesn't he normally come from off the Pace in most of his races? He hasn't shown the ability in general to be placed near the front. I believe that if QR runs his race and just keeps on going on like he tends to with that huge engine that he has, even Look'in at Lucky will have a great deal of difficulty in dealing with him. :)

[Audioslavery]

Boy, I don't know about that. Lookin at Lucky needs to move up between 5 and 10 lengths to contend against Quality Road.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quality Road Blasts Bullet at Saratoga | BloodHorse.com
http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/58081/quality-road-blasts--bullet-at-saratoga
Excerpt:
Snip[/COLOR][/B]


Likewise,

...what was supposed to be a simple five-furlong workout for Lookin At Lucky on Monday morning at Del Mar - his final prep for the Haskell Invitational on Sunday at Monmouth - became something far more involved, with other horses happening to be at the same spot on the same track at the same time Lookin At Lucky broke into his work with stablemate Flagship. Fortunately for Baffert, he was able to relay instructions to jockey Martin Garcia as Lookin At Lucky began to go far too fast for Baffert's liking the first part of the work. Yet Lookin At Lucky, the Preakness Stakes winner, still rolled around the track in 58.60 seconds, easily the fastest five-furlong drill among 46 at the distance on Monday over the Polytrack surface at Del Mar.

"I slowed him up in the stretch," Baffert said as soon as the work was over. "He was going too fast. He was going to go in 57. I didn't want him to go too fast."

Baffert timed Lookin At Lucky going out six furlongs in 1:11.60.

Over the slow Del Mar polytrack as well? Well shucks let's not ignore the obvious here. 'Lucky' flies across the track without even being asked! Regardless, I'm more excited about this matchup than the Rach/Zen match.

[jonnielu]

Likewise,



Over the slow Del Mar polytrack as well? Well shucks let's not ignore the obvious here. 'Lucky' flies across the track without even being asked! Regardless, I'm more excited about this matchup than the Rach/Zen match.

So, who's he matchin' up with Sunday?

jdl

[Jasonm921]

I've noticed that she has been running wide. I also believe that is to get some extra foundation in her.

[Audioslavery]

So, who's he matchin' up with Sunday?

jdl

I doubt it matters quite frankly.

[joanied]

I've got an idea, let's handicap it, what did lucky do in his first three races?

jdl

You also asked what race he won last? What difference does it make...look him up. He's 7-1-1 in 10 lifetime starts and a hell of a nice colt.
It's of my opinion he may be the one to give QR some grief...Lucky's last work was a little faster than QR's, and Baffert had to call in to the ex. rider to slow him down... Lucky has lost training days, but seems like he's right on track now.
I'm not about to argue over what my opinion of Lucky is...eventually, the two will settle it on the race track, meantime, I expect to see Lucky run a hell of a race in the Haskell.

[andymays]

West Points: Is Rachel back?

http://startelegramsports.typepad.com/west_points/2010/07/is-rachel-back.html

Excerpt:

Her owner, Jess Jackson, will make the call, as always, but it would seem there are two Saratoga options, the Personal Ensign on Aug. 29 at 1 1/4 miles and The Woodward on Sept. 4 at 1 1/8 miles. The attraction of the Personal Ensign would be, of course, the challenge of the classic distance. And now, as Del Mar has exerpienced some problems with its synthetic surface and horsemen have expressed some concerns, there looms the possibility that Zenyatta also could run in the Personal Ensign, the possibility, in other words, that the sport's fans will finally get the showdown they have clamored to see for a year.

And wouldn't it be irresistable for the Zenyatta connections to take on Rachel Alexandra at 1 1/4 miles? The distance, after all, would certainly favor the older, unbeaten mare.

I've always thought that when these two great racehorses finally meet -- if indeed they ever do -- circumstances will determine the outcome. I've always believed that at 1 1/16 miles, Rachel Alexandra would have the edge and that at 1 1/4 miles the advantage would tilt in the other direction. But this new Rachel Alexandra could demand a reconsideration; for this filly, 1 1/4 miles just might be perfect. And if that proves true, then Rachel Alexandra's entire season crystalizes into a plan to get to the Breeders' Cup Classic.


Read more: http://startelegramsports.typepad.com/west_points/2010/07/is-rachel-back.html#ixzz0uzEjdQ8e

[born2ride]

You can make what you want out of it, but I would swear Steve A has been doing nothing but getting Rachael ready to go a 1 1/4. I think a lot of people are in for a suprise. Quality Road may be the problem.

People keep looking for the explosive filly from last year, and are disappointed because that form hasn't appeared. It won't appear, it's gone. In it's place is a stronger less explosive filly that is rating better, is more mature and relaxed, and has goteen stronger towards the end of the race. Both the LS and FdL show this. I think she's more capable of 1 1/4 than people give her credit for.

[jonnielu]

I doubt it matters quite frankly.

Why do you post, if you don't want to get into a discussion?

jdl

[Pick6]

Similar odds were thrown by Wynn for HOY... we all how well that turned out. ;)
Nevada books are prevented from accepting wagers on outcomes determined by vote. So, no.

[born2ride]

Nevada books are prevented from accepting wagers on outcomes determined by vote. So, no.

Posting odds that aren't open for action has nothing to do with making a comment about them.

[Pick6]

Just my 2c:

Reading between the lines, I think Hayward has a commitment from Moss to run in the Personal Ensign IF the money is upped. How much I don't know, but I'm thinking $1M is reasonable for both sides. The distance is ideal, no more detention barn, and if Del Mar is out they really need to keep the horse sharp for the BCC and hence ship east. So IMO this race sets up perfectly. Hayward may not have the leverage to increase the purse with all the NYRA issues of late, but I am guessing 75% it's going to happen.

Now, assuming Z is a go, I'm guessing 80% chance Rachel drops out. First, the distance is questionable. Next, the 1 1-8 Woodward, although deeper in competition, suits up more nicely. They will probably go straight from there to BC. Also, if Rachel loses the Woodward, no face lost because with the stronger field nobody would expect her to win anyway. Two factors inducing Rachel going would be (1) if they are considering a run for the BCC. In that case they probably want to know if she can get 1 1-4 before dismissing the 1 1-8 BC distaff, and (2) if a conditional purse is offered if both she and Z run, perhaps $2M. I don't think NYRA can go this high, but if they can perhaps this race will happen.

I'm on record saying these two will never face off, but I hope I'm wrong.

[Pick6]

Posting odds that aren't open for action has nothing to do with making a comment about them.
Posting odds without taking action does not mean much. In fact it means close to nothing.

[joanied]

Just my 2c:

Reading between the lines, I think Hayward has a commitment from Moss to run in the Personal Ensign IF the money is upped. How much I don't know, but I'm thinking $1M is reasonable for both sides. The distance is ideal, no more detention barn, and if Del Mar is out they really need to keep the horse sharp for the BCC and hence ship east. So IMO this race sets up perfectly. Hayward may not have the leverage to increase the purse with all the NYRA issues of late, but I am guessing 75% it's going to happen.

Now, assuming Z is a go, I'm guessing 80% chance Rachel drops out. First, the distance is questionable. Next, the 1 1-8 Woodward, although deeper in competition, suits up more nicely. They will probably go straight from there to BC. Also, if Rachel loses the Woodward, no face lost because with the stronger field nobody would expect her to win anyway. Two factors inducing Rachel going would be (1) if they are considering a run for the BCC. In that case they probably want to know if she can get 1 1-4 before dismissing the 1 1-8 BC distaff, and (2) if a conditional purse is offered if both she and Z run, perhaps $2M. I don't think NYRA can go this high, but if they can perhaps this race will happen.

I'm on record saying these two will never face off, but I hope I'm wrong.

IMO, your two cents is worth a lot more...unless JJ decides it's time to act like the sportsman he says he is, if Zenyatta goes in the PE, I also beleive Rachel won't be there...I seriously doubt they'll want to try that distance for the first time if they have to contend with Zenny...and if Rachel can win the Woodward back to back...that's gonna look really nice on her resume for history.
My big fear is that they won't meet until BC...and if that happens, well, it'll suck big time!!

[Cardus]

http://blog.timesunion.com/horseracing/zenyatta-and-rachel-alexandra-at-the-spa-maybe/4904/

Excerpt:

It has been said that her next race will be the Clement Hirsch on Aug. 7 at Del Mar. But, Moss and Shirreffs aren’t wild about the 1 1/8 mile distance and the synthetic track out West. One of the reasons they weren’t wild about New York was the detention barns but they’re gone now.

Right now, I believe Zenyatta would be the favorite to beat Rachel but it’s a race the public has wanted to see for nearly a year. Come on Mr. Music and Mr. Wine, let’s make this happen. For the good of the game.

Wine, "women", and song.

That would make for an interesting ad campaign.

[W2G]

Zenyatta at Saratoga would be off the hook. She'll own that town and make thousands of new fans on personality alone. The place would be rocking. I can just see that half-horse half-giraffe creature barreling down the Spa stretch. You have to wonder if they brought her out of retirement to win races like the Clement Hirsch yet again. Time for a major change of scenery. Saratoga deserves her and she deserves Saratoga.

If Moss and Shirreffs commit to the PE I don't see how JJ takes a pass. They are clearly eyeing the race anyway. So I voted Yes. NYRA is overdue for some good news.

[tucker6]

IMO, your two cents is worth a lot more...unless JJ decides it's time to act like the sportsman he says he is, if Zenyatta goes in the PE, I also beleive Rachel won't be there...I seriously doubt they'll want to try that distance for the first time if they have to contend with Zenny...and if Rachel can win the Woodward back to back...that's gonna look really nice on her resume for history.
My big fear is that they won't meet until BC...and if that happens, well, it'll suck big time!!
Joanie my very good friend, I disagree. I believe they will test RA 10F in this race as a prelude to the BCC. If she can't get that (I think she can), then she'll end up in the distaff. If RA loses and neither horse shines, I think there's a good chance they both end up in the Distaff for a rematch.

[joanied]

Joanie my very good friend, I disagree. I believe they will test RA 10F in this race as a prelude to the BCC. If she can't get that (I think she can), then she'll end up in the distaff. If RA loses and neither horse shines, I think there's a good chance they both end up in the Distaff for a rematch.

Well now, tucker old buddy, my friend...ya might have somethin' there...they gotta try RA at the 10f sooner or later...and if JJ has the you know what's;) ...he'll go for it. But, first, someone has got to put Zenny on a plane..."over the mountains and through the woods, to Saratoga we go" :D

[tucker6]

Well now, tucker old buddy, my friend...ya might have somethin' there...they gotta try RA at the 10f sooner or later...and if JJ has the you know what's;) ...he'll go for it. But, first, someone has got to put Zenny on a plane..."over the mountains and through the woods, to Saratoga we go" :D
Sooner or later IMHO, RA has to race 10F before the BCC and Z has to get over the other side of the mountains and race on dirt before the BCC. The PE is the logical choice for both. It is far enough removed in time from the BC races for proper decisions to be made about ramp up to that date and which race to run in.

I will always believe until the BCC is actually run that at least one of these gals will NOT race in the BCC. Maybe even both. I'd like to see a dual in the Distaff. It would likely outdraw the Classic if they both entered the Distaff.

[andymays]

http://www.horseraceinsider.com/Saratoga-Diary/comments/07282010-saratoga-diary-via-del-mar-and-oceanport/#comments

Excerpt:

Both Rachel and Zenyatta figure to run twice before Breeders’ Cup. Now if the Left Coasters decide they want to protect the undefeated slate, with a chance to go 20-0 with a Classic repeat, their mare is in the conversation for the best race horse of all time of either sex.

I wouldn’t know, regardless. I never saw Man o’ War; never saw Ribot. But I did see Secretariat, and while I could never imagine him getting beat on the square, it happened. They all get beat.

Except, thus far, Zenyatta.

As a racing fan, my ambitions are not as lofty as either of the camps in question. I don’t care if either runs in the Classic or not. If either were mine, I wouldn’t go hunting for Quality Road. I might not even want to go hunting for Blame.

What I want is to see these fillies race against each other, either in the Personal Ensign--advantage Zenyatta, or in the Ladies Classic. Right now, since very few are giving Rachel any chance to handle the big mare, nine furlongs is advantage no one.

Besides, Asmussen said this week that 10 furlongs just might suit the four-year-old version of Rachel, sounding very much like someone who preferred the 10-furlong poison to the Quality Road variety.

So give me the Ladies Classic, featuring two great race mares and an extremely strong supporting cast. And give it to me in prime time, under Churchill’s Friday Night Lights.

[OntheRail]

Snipit: From a link joanied posted in another thread.

"We would like to run her twice before the (Nov. 5) Breeders' Cup," Ingordo said. "But that decision will be up to the Mosses and John."

Despite speculation that the first of those two would be Del Mar's Aug. 7 Hirsch Stakes, Jerry Moss does not favor Del Mar's surface. Ingordo said a decision to enter "has not been made."

The Mosses do not want to air ship Zenyatta east before the Breeders' Cup. That means both starts will be in California.

This comes as no surprise... I guess the detention barn was a hallow excuse. :rolleyes:

Why did they continue this year... Was it not to show the rest of the country what she can do and to see her run. So much for that happening. :bang:

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/race/7129349.html

[tucker6]

Snipit: From a link joanied posted in another thread.

"We would like to run her twice before the (Nov. 5) Breeders' Cup," Ingordo said. "But that decision will be up to the Mosses and John."

Despite speculation that the first of those two would be Del Mar's Aug. 7 Hirsch Stakes, Jerry Moss does not favor Del Mar's surface. Ingordo said a decision to enter "has not been made."

The Mosses do not want to air ship Zenyatta east before the Breeders' Cup. That means both starts will be in California.

This comes as no surprise... I guess the detention barn was a hallow excuse. :rolleyes:

Why did they continue this year... Was it not to show the rest of the country what she can do and to see her run. So much for that happening. :bang:

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/race/7129349.html
Yet another lie by the Zenyatta camp. I wonder when the JJ haters will reign in their comments, and turn them toward the Mosses. The Mosses have failed to follow through on their pre-2010 statements much more than Jess Jackson, yet some wail and rail against Jess as if he is the devil. Why???????

[joanied]

I wondered when this was gonna come out...it's part of the article I posted in the thread 'neat story on Zenyatta's personality'...I said there was some 'news' in the story, but I wasn't gonna tell...

bummer, bummer, bummer...why did they get everyone fired up about getting to see the mare race outside of CA. and now keep her there...I wish someone would just ask Moss about this....put him on the spot...they have some splainin' to do:faint:

[PaceAdvantage]

Now, assuming Z is a go, I'm guessing 80% chance Rachel drops out. First, the distance is questionable. Next, the 1 1-8 Woodward, although deeper in competition, suits up more nicely.This makes absolutely no sense. You are way too hung up on this distance thing.

If the goal is indeed the BC Classic for Rachel, then a perfect prep for that would be a matchup against Zenyatta at 10f in the Personal Ensign.

It would be a MUCH EASIER race for Rachel than taking on males in the Woodward, in my opinion.

I still think neither Zenyatta or Rachel will go in the BC Classic this year...it just appears to be coming up way too tough a race.

And as far as the BC is concerned, I think they would love to get these two female champions to go on the Friday card for "Lady's Day"

[thaskalos]

I don't think that the match-up between Zenyatta and Rachel is as eagerly anticipated this year, as it was last year. The emergence of Quality Road and Blame, coupled with the questionable form that Rachel displayed earlier this year, has people preferring the Quality Road, Blame and Zenyatta match-up instead.

I don't think that Zenyatta was brought back to the races...so she could "duck" the top horses all year.

That makes me think she is destined for the BC Classic.

Passing on the Classic, in order to take on Rachel in the "Ladies" race - would not be the appropriate final lifetime race for Zenyatta...IMO.

[classhandicapper]

You can make what you want out of it, but I would swear Steve A has been doing nothing but getting Rachael ready to go a 1 1/4.

I agree.

I think he knows that last year she would have gotten her head handed to her in a 10F race against legitimate Grade 1 older colts. The 10F was probably even a factor in his thinking when choosing the Woodward instead of the Travers.

I think he's working really hard to get her to relax and finish better. She was too vulnerable to getting drawn into fast paces last year.

[classhandicapper]

http://www.horseraceinsider.com/Saratoga-Diary/comments/07282010-saratoga-diary-via-del-mar-and-oceanport/#comments


What I want is to see these fillies race against each other, either in the Personal Ensign--advantage Zenyatta, or in the Ladies Classic. Right now, since very few are giving Rachel any chance to handle the big mare, nine furlongs is advantage no one.



I'd like to know who isn't giving Rachel a huge chance to beat Zenyatta at 9F on dirt?

Rachel is relaxing much better this year than last and IMO is less vulnerable to getting drawn into a fast pace or premature move if something hot develops in front of her.

I think part of the reason people are underrating her efforts this year is because she came back a little short and a few of her figures from last year were inflated. I think she's on a perfect path to be reaching her peak at the exactly perfect time.

Everyone here knows I am a huge Zenyatta fan, but everyone also knows that supreme greatness on one surface doesn't automatically translate into the same level of performance on another surface. Zenyatta has given hints that she might be as good on dirt, but her record is hardly conclusive in that regard.

The difference between my position and the position of the Zenyatta bashers is that IMO the quality of racing in CA is much stronger than it's given credit for. The different nature of the racing impacts figures and margins and makes them borderline irrelevant when trying to compare synthetic or turf horses to dirt horses.

I also don't think greatness is defined by what you do at 9F on dirt.

I've seen great dirt sprinters, great dirt milers, great dirt classic distance horses, great turf milers, great classic turfers etc... I've seen a few that were great at multiple things. But very very few are great on multiple surfaces. When one shows up, it's an EXTRA level of greatness. It's not a knock if you can cross over. So "IF" she's not up to the task on dirt, it won't diminish her accomplishments on synthetic in my eyes at all.

What I really wish she would have done one time was try turf against Grade 1 fillies (perhaps at Belmont where the bigger turns would have helped).

[Pick6]

This makes absolutely no sense. You are way too hung up on this distance thing.

If the goal is indeed the BC Classic for Rachel, then a perfect prep for that would be a matchup against Zenyatta at 10f in the Personal Ensign.

It would be a MUCH EASIER race for Rachel than taking on males in the Woodward, in my opinion.

I still think neither Zenyatta or Rachel will go in the BC Classic this year...it just appears to be coming up way too tough a race.

And as far as the BC is concerned, I think they would love to get these two female champions to go on the Friday card for "Lady's Day"
Of course you did not quote this from my post:

Two factors inducing Rachel going would be (1) if they are considering a run for the BCC. In that case they probably want to know if she can get 1 1-4 before dismissing the 1 1-8 BC distaff, and (2) if a conditional purse is offered if both she and Z run, perhaps $2M. I don't think NYRA can go this high, but if they can perhaps this race will happen.
So it might help to read the COMPLETE post before responding with nonsense.

[PaceAdvantage]

So it might help to read the COMPLETE post before responding with nonsense.I read the complete post. And my response was not nonsense. You are hung up on the 10 furlongs when it comes to Rachel. You always have been for whatever reason.

I directly addressed the part of your post that I found the most interesting. It would be absurd to take on colts at 9 furlongs if you had the opportunity to beat Zenyatta at 10f.

You kill two birds with one stone. You beat the undefeated Zenyatta, whom many consider the best horse in the country and one of the best of all time. And you conquer this 10f albatross some have put around her neck.

Nonsense my ass...

[OntheRail]

Well it looks like Rachel will be in the gate for the Personal Ensign. :jump:

Snipit BH
Rachel Alexandra, coming off two consecutive wins, will race next in the $300,000 Personal Ensign Stakes (gr. I) Aug. 29 in Saratoga. The race for fillies and mares will be run at 1 1/4 miles.
“Rachel feels very much at home among the great Saratoga fans,” said co-owner Jess Jackson in a press release. “It’s an historic race named after a great champion. The timing is right for Rachel. She’s been coming back into her stride and this will help her prepare for the rest of her campaign and the Breeders’ Cup later this year.”


http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/58152/rachel-on-her-way-to-personal-ensign

[tzipi]

I'm glad Rachel is going is going to be there. They said she wouldn't enter a 1 1/4 race because she can be beat easily at it,so they will never enter one. Good for the RA camp for entering the race and putting it on the line.

[cj]

http://www.pacefigures.com/images/z.jpg

Sorry, it just never gets old for me.

[Dahoss9698]

http://www.pacefigures.com/images/z.jpg

Sorry, it just never gets old for me.

Me either.

[tucker6]

Is there a story in BH where Moss indicates that he wants to give back to racing, and will definitely ship Zenyatta to meet RA for the PE?? You know, to increase the visability of the sport. I couldn't find it, but I was in somewhat of a rush while scanning. I wonder what the Moss lovers will do if he ducks this race after being given over four weeks to prepare for it by Jackson. Say what you want, but Jackson is baiting Moss with the timing of this. Tells me that he believes he has the horse that'll end Zenyatta's streak.

[OntheRail]

Sorry, it just never gets old for me.

Me nether.. http://images.paraorkut.com/img/emoticons/images/d/duck-81.gif

:lol:

[andymays]

http://www.drf.com/news/zenyatta-zeroing-clement-hirsch?nocache=1

Excerpt:

“My only influence is that we want to run her a couple of times in preparation for the Breeders’ Cup,” Shirreffs said after the workout. “The options aren’t that many.”

Shirreffs said the decision on whether Zenyatta will start will be made in consultation with owners Jerry and Ann Moss. Jerry Moss attended Friday’s workout at Hollywood Park.

Shirreffs said that how his horses perform on the Del Mar Polytrack in the next few days will influence whether Zenyatta runs in the Hirsch. On Sunday, Shirreffs starts Breakmark in a maiden claimer and Scenic Blast in the Grade 1 Bing Crosby Stakes.

“Everybody has to feel good about it,” Shirreffs said of running Zenyatta in the Hirsch.

[thaskalos]

I must admit, that it has gotten a little old for me...

http://www.pacefigures.com/images/z.jpg

Sorry, it just never gets old for me.

[cj]

I must admit, that it has gotten a little old for me...

Well, that is because you don't handicap as well as Rachel fans. :)

[thaskalos]

Well, that is because you don't handicap as well as Rachel fans. :)After Dahoss's performance in the handicapping contest with only11...how can I disagree with you?

[eastie]

if they don't come, they are not doing the Mare justice. It is a perfect scenario.

[eastie]

http://www.pacefigures.com/images/z.jpg

Sorry, it just never gets old for me.


It never gets old for me looking at that powerful chest of hers....check it out. What a mass of muscle wrapped around that heart. :)

[andymays]

http://www.insidesocal.com/horseracing/

Excerpt:

There had been speculation that Shirreffs' disdain for Del Mar's Polytrack surface might lead the Zenyatta camp to send her back to the Personal Ensign and a showdown against Rachel Alexandra, but Shirreffs has nixed that idea.

Shirreffs told The Daily Racing Form that the $350,000 Beldame Stakes at Belmont Park on Oct. 2 is a possibility for Zenyatta. He said he wants to run her twice more before the Breeders' Cup on Nov. 5-6. Zenyatta has won three races this year after her unprecedented victory in last fall's Breeders' Cup Classic at Santa Anita.

[tucker6]

http://www.insidesocal.com/horseracing/

Excerpt:

There had been speculation that Shirreffs' disdain for Del Mar's Polytrack surface might lead the Zenyatta camp to send her back to the Personal Ensign and a showdown against Rachel Alexandra, but Shirreffs has nixed that idea.

Shirreffs told The Daily Racing Form that the $350,000 Beldame Stakes at Belmont Park on Oct. 2 is a possibility for Zenyatta. He said he wants to run her twice more before the Breeders' Cup on Nov. 5-6. Zenyatta has won three races this year after her unprecedented victory in last fall's Breeders' Cup Classic at Santa Anita.
I guess this will end the, "Jess Jackson is ducking Zenyatta" talk permanently.

[andymays]

http://www.timesunion.com/local/article/Owner-Rachel-running-at-Spa-596957.php

Excerpt:

John Shirreffs, Zenyatta's trainer, said thanks, but no thanks.

"She is going to stay in California," Shirreffs said by cell phone . "We have not considered it (Personal Ensign) at all, really. We have not even discussed it. ... In fact, this is the first I have heard about it when you mentioned it."

Excerpt:

When asked if the New York Racing Association could do anything to get Zenyatta to run at the Spa, Shirreffs answered quickly.

"No," he said. "Nothing."
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is weak stuff. :ThmbDown:

[andymays]

I guess this will end the, "Jess Jackson is ducking Zenyatta" talk permanently.

Yes, the race in Saratoga would have been the right move. For everyone except the Z camp that is. :ThmbDown:

[eastie]

give me 5 minutes in a room with him and Zenyatta would be in the race. I don't mean anything physical, but 5 minutes of good old common sense, and he'd be rushing to call a press conference announcing that she was coming.

[Java Gold@TFT]

give me 5 minutes in a room with him and Zenyatta would be in the race. I don't mean anything physical, but 5 minutes of good old common sense, and he'd be rushing to call a press conference announcing that she was coming.
Make him an offer he couldn't refuse and he would still refuse to meet Rachel on dirt at the most historic meet in the country.

[tzipi]

I guess this will end the, "Jess Jackson is ducking Zenyatta" talk permanently.

I would surely say so. Everyone said RA camp will never enter a 1 1/4 race anywhere because Zen would be there and whip her because RA can't handle the distance or Zen. So now they have entered a top 1 1/4 race at the great Saratoga meet on a surface both horses handle extremely well.
Thumbs down to the Zenyatta camp. Kudos to the RA camp for putting it on the line at this time of the year. Hopefully Moss and Sherriffs wake up and go there. It would be a great race I think.

[andymays]

http://www.dmtc.com/season/events/index.php?id=92

They're giving away Zenyatta glasses so they must be pretty sure she's going in the Clement Hirsch

[Java Gold@TFT]

Honestly, if you are going to race at Del Mar then why not the Pac Classic? It's not a timing problem for the BC and has a lot more prestige and money than the Clement Hirsch which will be one more lame joke on the resume. She's beaten the boys last year and there really isn't much in the So Cal handicap division to be afraid of. Just suck it up and go to the Pac Classic if you are afraid of the Personal Ensign. The photoshopped pictures should also include the fear of the Pac Classic.

[Buckeye]

that's right-- You either show up or you don't, and that applies to both of them.

At this point in time:

These two need to settle it on the track.

We the fans deserve to see this right now! Was Zenyatta robbed last year or was she just hiding? Let's find out.

[PaceAdvantage]

give me 5 minutes in a room with him and Zenyatta would be in the race. I don't mean anything physical, but 5 minutes of good old common sense, and he'd be rushing to call a press conference announcing that she was coming.I love you Boston guys...you're a riot! :lol:

[PaceAdvantage]

Anyone who has ever given Jess Jackson shit on these boards ought to man up (or woman up) and start dishing it out to team Zenyatta right now.

Not only did they boast about taking her out of California this year and having a "little fun with her" and how they "all love to travel," but they made it clear that a race against Rachel Alexandra was something they wanted.

Either Zenyatta has developed some sort of unreported physical problems/limitations (which is why she is so lightly raced every year, and now all of a sudden "can't travel"), or something else is causing the connections to basically do a 180 degree turn on every goal they stated for 2010.

They showed up at Oaklawn EVEN AFTER Rachel was declared from the race AND the purse was reduced. But now all of a sudden they can't travel anywhere outside of SoCal?

Something doesn't make sense here.

[andymays]

Anyone who has ever given Jess Jackson shit on these boards ought to man up (or woman up) and start dishing it out to team Zenyatta right now.

Not only did they boast about taking her out of California this year and having a "little fun with her" and how they "all love to travel," but they made it clear that a race against Rachel Alexandra was something they wanted.

Either Zenyatta has developed some sort of unreported physical problems/limitations (which is why she is so lightly raced every year, and now all of a sudden "can't travel"), or something else is causing the connections to basically do a 180 degree turn on every goal they stated for 2010.

They showed up at Oaklawn EVEN AFTER Rachel was declared from the race AND the purse was reduced. But now all of a sudden they can't travel anywhere outside of SoCal?

Something doesn't make sense here.

This obsession with staying in California has everyone scratching their heads. Even Roger Stein who thinks the world of Shirreffs and the Zenyatta camp is scratching his head over the campaign. I think it comes down to Moss being on the board of the CHRB and him wanting to carry California racing. It's as simple as that because the trip to Saratoga is a no brainer given what they said when they brought her back (and the well know dislike of Del Mar Polytrack).

Achived show for 7-31. He talks about it in the first part of his show.

http://www.rogerstein.com/radio/archive2.asp

In an unrelated subject if you go to the last 11 minutes he has a segment on the proposed raise in takeout.

[cj]

This obsession with staying in California has everyone scratching their heads. Even Roger Stein who thinks the world of Shirreffs and the Zenyatta camp is scratching his head over the campaign. I think it comes down to Moss being on the board of the CHRB and him wanting to carry California racing. It's as simple as that because the trip to Saratoga is a no brainer given what they said when they brought her back (and the well know dislike of Del Mar Polytrack).

Achived show for 7-31. He talks about it in the first part of his show.

http://www.rogerstein.com/radio/archive2.asp

In an unrelated subject if you go to the last 11 minutes he has a segment on the proposed raise in takeout.

The Shirreffs part makes sense, but how does that explain the owners? Do they just do what he says? I find that very hard to believe.

[cj]

The Shirreffs part makes sense, but how does that explain the owners? Do they just do what he says? I find that very hard to believe.

Further, how sad it is that if they do stay at Delmar they won't try the Pacific Classic? What horse is there to be scared of these days? Rail Trip is gone, St. Trinian's is on the shelf. Is Awesome Gem that scary for them?

[andymays]

The Shirreffs part makes sense, but how does that explain the owners? Do they just do what he says? I find that very hard to believe.

Nobody can figure this out. The hardcore Z fans on the west coast don't see anything wrong with her staying there but anyone with any sense can't justify this campaign so far.

[andymays]

Further, how sad it is that if they do stay at Delmar they won't try the Pacific Classic? What horse is there to be scared of these days? Rail Trip is gone, St. Trinian's is on the shelf. Is Awesome Gem that scary for them?


You won't get any argument from me on any of this. It doesn't make sense at all.

[tucker6]

Further, how sad it is that if they do stay at Delmar they won't try the Pacific Classic? What horse is there to be scared of these days? Rail Trip is gone, St. Trinian's is on the shelf. Is Awesome Gem that scary for them?
CJ,

I think you're mistakingly looking at this from your own vantage point. If you view Zenyatta's 2010 campaign with the ultimate goal of her remaining an undefeated champion when she retires, then all this starts making perfect sense. It also means she won't be in the BCC linup. The Mosses haven't followed through on any other promises this year, so why would defending her crown at the BCC be the first.

[born2ride]

CJ,

I think you're mistakingly looking at this from your own vantage point. If you view Zenyatta's 2010 campaign with the ultimate goal of her remaining an undefeated champion when she retires, then all this starts making perfect sense. It also means she won't be in the BCC linup. The Mosses haven't followed through on any other promises this year, so why would defending her crown at the BCC be the first.

Are you saying that preserving her record is most important, more so than doing what is right for Zenyatta? It seems that is the only way to reconcile them running her on a surface she hates.

[andymays]

The power structure in California almost always gets what they want. This is a perfect example. If it wasn't for Fab Frank they would have gotten a permanent Breeders Cup deal. Even though it isn't right California has disproportionate influence on the national racing scene.

CHRIMS is a California company. Look at the customer list. Just an example.


http://www.chrims.com/Customers.aspx

[joanied]

Seems to me that Zenny's camp doesn't want to face RA until BC...why would they choose the Beldame over the PE? They are just days apart, so either one would be a good 'prep' for the BC...regardless of which BC they decide on...
I have to give JJ credit...he did the right thing announcing RA's entering the PE, giving Sherriff's & Moss plenty of notice...I can't even express how bummed I am at the Moss's...all talk and no action...I guess entering Zenny in the Beldame is their way of saying they ARE gonna ship her...but they aren't fooling anyone with that lame idea...why they would rather run her on a surface she hates, rather than shipping, is beyond me...isn't Moss embarrassed at all about this turn around of their 'plans' for this year? He should be.

[tucker6]

Are you saying that preserving her record is most important,
Yes. How else to explain race selection to date. If she's 19-0 in October, she won't be in the BCC. That's my prediction right now. I wouldn't put it past the connections to then have her come up lame or sick, and by golly miss the whole BC series weekend and retire undefeated.

"It's a shame Zenyatta had to miss the Classic, as we felt her chances were great coming off her undefeated 2010 campaign to date. We wish we could have shown Zenyatta to her many fans back East, but racing's a funny thing, and sometimes you get these 'bad' breaks", said a hand wringing Jerry Moss. "It's a shame Rachel Alexandra wasn't ready for the Apple Blossom in April, as we'll now never know who the best really was." :D

[tzipi]

Further, how sad it is that if they do stay at Delmar they won't try the Pacific Classic? What horse is there to be scared of these days? Rail Trip is gone, St. Trinian's is on the shelf. Is Awesome Gem that scary for them?

I don't understand it at all either. But then again they have stayed away from the harder top races out there every year except for the BC on the polyturf against turfers.
I wish someone else had Zen. I would've liked to see what she would've done in the top races. I mean it's no secret she can run lights out out there on that surface. Would've been good racing. :ThmbUp:

[born2ride]

Yes. How else to explain race selection to date. If she's 19-0 in October, she won't be in the BCC. That's my prediction right now. I wouldn't put it past the connections to then have her come up lame or sick, and by golly miss the whole BC series weekend and retire undefeated.

"It's a shame Zenyatta had to miss the Classic, as we felt her chances were great coming off her undefeated 2010 campaign to date. We wish we could have shown Zenyatta to her many fans back East, but racing's a funny thing, and sometimes you get these 'bad' breaks", said a hand wringing Jerry Moss. "It's a shame Rachel Alexandra wasn't ready for the Apple Blossom in April, as we'll now never know who the best really was." :D

Then it does all make sense. I was thinking they'd want to avenge not winning HOY and face Rachel when she was 100%, or showcase their mares talent in tougher races maybe even against males. I guess neither are really true.

You may be right about the BC, she's never really been out of training since the end of '08 so they may choose to end her year early because she's tired, has some nagging physical issue, and is not 100%. If they do this, it does sound a bit like sour grapes on their part, then again they've not really cared what others think so it probably doesn't matter to them.

[cj]

CJ,

I think you're mistakingly looking at this from your own vantage point. If you view Zenyatta's 2010 campaign with the ultimate goal of her remaining an undefeated champion when she retires, then all this starts making perfect sense. It also means she won't be in the BCC linup. The Mosses haven't followed through on any other promises this year, so why would defending her crown at the BCC be the first.

That may be true, but if so it will be a very, very hollow undefeated record.

[cj]

Seems to me that Zenny's camp doesn't want to face RA until BC...why would they choose the Beldame over the PE? They are just days apart, so either one would be a good 'prep' for the BC...regardless of which BC they decide on...
I have to give JJ credit...he did the right thing announcing RA's entering the PE, giving Sherriff's & Moss plenty of notice...I can't even express how bummed I am at the Moss's...all talk and no action...I guess entering Zenny in the Beldame is their way of saying they ARE gonna ship her...but they aren't fooling anyone with that lame idea...why they would rather run her on a surface she hates, rather than shipping, is beyond me...isn't Moss embarrassed at all about this turn around of their 'plans' for this year? He should be.

Just to be clear, the races are more than a month apart.

[joanied]

Just to be clear, the races are more than a month apart.

OOpps:blush: :blush: double embarassed:faint: Thanks, cj (I'm in a huge rush today...too many things to do and trying to get some posts in...maybe I'd better take a dep breath:)

[chickenhead]

it is pretty confounding. It's hard not to think that they think she's lost a step or three, but even then, there are plenty of easy dirt races out there...so even that doesn't explain why she wouldn't have shipped at least once more than she has. Unless they really did see something in the shipping her to Oaklawn that freaked them out. There are not a lot of other reasons why they wouldn't be doing what they had said they'd be doing. Maybe it's both.

[Kimsus]

Anyone who has ever given Jess Jackson shit on these boards ought to man up (or woman up) and start dishing it out to team Zenyatta right now.



For what? For finally apparently entering her in a grade 1 race for females on the east coast after 4 races thus far in late August, I thought this is what you are supposed to do for former HOY's from day 1. This post really deserves a triple... :confused: :confused: :confused:

[WinterTriangle]

Not sure why people complain that they aren't showcasing Zen east of the Rockies "for her fans"?

Reading thru posts here, it would seem that Zen (and her owner and trainer) doesn't HAVE any fans on the East Coast. :lol:

So, using that for a complaint sounds sort of disingenous. ;)

[PaceAdvantage]

For what? For finally apparently entering her in a grade 1 race for females on the east coast after 4 races thus far in late August, I thought this is what you are supposed to do for former HOY's from day 1. This post really deserves a triple... :confused: :confused: :confused:Your reply makes absolutely no sense when taken in context with the rest of this thread.

Are you reading PaceAdvantage in an alternate universe where the threads are just a bit different?

[PaceAdvantage]

Not sure why people complain that they aren't showcasing Zen east of the Rockies "for her fans"?

Reading thru posts here, it would seem that Zen (and her owner and trainer) doesn't HAVE any fans on the East Coast. :lol:

So, using that for a complaint sounds sort of disingenous. ;)Well then, they simply don't care about her legacy as a racehorse, because 2010 certainly hasn't done her any favors thus far, except of course for "the streak."

Either that, or they're afraid for some reason. According to all the Rachel bashers/Zen fans on this board, there should be absolutely nothing to fear, especially at 10 furlongs, right WT? And believe it or not, there actually is some glory attained in beating a HOY.

But then again, nothing really compares to defeating the mighty St Trinians I suppose...maybe they want to continue to revel in that limelight a little while longer...

Who could blame them?

[cj]

Well then, they simply don't care about her legacy as a racehorse, because 2010 certainly hasn't done her any favors thus far, except of course for "the streak."

Either that, or they're afraid for some reason. According to all the Rachel bashers/Zen fans on this board, there should be absolutely nothing to fear, especially at 10 furlongs, right WT?

There actually is some glory in beating a HOY.

But then again, nothing really compares to beating the mighty St Trinians I suppose...maybe they want to continue to revel in that limelight as little longer...who could blame them?

Personally, I suspected she wouldn't quite be the same this year and I have no reason to change my mind. Before this year, every time she had a fast race to run into she has recorded a reasonable if not good final time number, but that has not been the case in 2010. I believe she has lost a step or two, and more importantly, I believe Team Duck knows it as well.

[WinterTriangle]

Well then, they simply don't care about her legacy as a racehorse

Pace, my post was joking, but I also kinda think that both RA and Zen's legacies have already been cemented into the history books, and will read the way they read, regardless of what happens in 2010.

Mostly because I truly think they are both nearing their 'shelf life' in terms of *further setting the world on fire*, but for different reasons. I don't expect 2010 to be a replay of 2009. Zenyatta is nearing 7 years old...the effect of shipping, if true, may be a function of that, or a function of the fact that she hasn't acclimated to shipping a lot, since as you all point out......she hasn't spent her life doing much of that :) . RA may never be as brilliant as she was at 3, and I have never been one who demanded it anyway, because it would be a hard act to follow her own act. Dunno how many horses these days (as Zito said they don't make 'em like they used to) could be expected to repeat, in RA's case, what she did last year? She might, or, it may take her til 5 (which is a prime year for horses IMHO) to really come back, but that would only be if she was still racing.

I guess I'm getting over them being the center of the universe in my own personal racing world.

In a way, since you said you did not think either of them would actually race in the BCC, but the distaff, I'm thinking you may similarly feel the same, on some level? I guess I should ask you why you said that.

[PaceAdvantage]

I guess I should ask you why you said that.Because this year is a much stronger year in terms of the competition, in my opinion. And that competition will be racing on their preferred surface, unlike last year when Zenyatta was on her preferred surface and her major competitors (Gio Ponti, Summer Bird, Rip Van Winkle) were NOT. I did NOT say what I said because I think either Zenyatta or RA has gotten weaker this year, although with RA, the jury is still out on that I suppose.

The evidence so far points to RA getting stronger as she races this year, much like last year when it took RA four to five races to reach her peak effort. Zenyatta, to me, doesn't seem to have lost a step, although she is still very much untested in 2010. Others (like CJ) might disagree on that last point.

[andymays]

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2010/aug/01/zenyatta-remains-the-big-question/

Excerpt:

Asked if that means Zenyatta will race in Del Mar’s Clement L. Hirsch Stakes, which she has won twice in a row, Shirreffs said, “No, not for sure.”

Shirreffs remains unsure about how Zenyatta will handle Del Mar’s Polytrack. She was nearly beaten in last year’s Hirsch by the Julio Canani-trained Anabaa’s Creation. Shirreffs’ 6-year-old gelding, Scenic Blast, finished second to upset winner Smiling Tiger, trained by Jeff Bonde, in the Bing Crosby Stakes on Sunday. Shirreffs knows this track keeps challenging first-year Superintendent Richard Tedesco. The veteran track man has added water to cool it and tighten it, especially after the sun baked the wax base Saturday and slowed it.

“It’s hard to get your mind on what you’re looking at,” Shirreffs said of the synthetic Polytrack that trainer Bob Baffert called “funky” on TV Sunday after Lookin at Lucky romped to win the Izod Haskell Invitational at Monmouth Park. “It’s not a sense of, ‘I recognize it and it’s something I know, and I understand.’ Walking out on this one, I don’t know and I don’t understand, so I have to look for another sign. I just don’t get it.”

[cj]

The evidence so far points to RA getting stronger as she races this year, much like last year when it took RA four to five races to reach her peak effort. Zenyatta, to me, doesn't seem to have lost a step, although she is still very much untested in 2010. Others (like CJ) might disagree on that last point.

The evidence for me is that despite the faster pace in her last race, she was life and death to beat St. Trinian's in an average at best final time. St. T is a decent enough horse but far from a world beater. She is a win machine no doubt, but I think we are seeing a few chinks in the armor.

The other chink I see is the blatant reversal of this year's plans by the connections. It just makes no sense to keep running in the same boring races again (and again). I think they know something is amiss. Time will tell if I'm right, but as a bettor that is the stance I'm taking. I won't be surprised if the Clement Hirsch is her last race.

[classhandicapper]

All I can say is I am happy as a pig in shit that most of you guys aren't managing any horses that I own, will never be part of a jury when I'm on trial, and that I am apparently further along in some of my understanding of this game relative to competition than I thought.

Seriously, I hate to say things like this, but the level of bias on this subject is so incomprehensible there's probably a life lesson buried in all this somewhere.

I just can't figure out what it is yet other than that personally I have wasted an enormous number of man hours being part of the debate when I could have been refining my understanding of the game further.

[cj]

All I can say is I am happy as a pig in shit that most of you guys aren't managing any horses that I own, will never be part of a jury when I'm on trial, and that I am apparently further along in some of my understanding of this game relative to competition than I thought.

Seriously, I hate to say things like this, but the level of bias on this subject is so incomprehensible there's probably a life lesson buried in all this somewhere.

I just can't figure out what it is yet other than that personally I have wasted an enormous number of man hours being part of the debate when I could have been refining my understanding of the game further.

I'm glad you fall in the Davidowitz camp. We all have our own opinions. As far as how the horse is managed, I am comparing it to how HER CONNECTIONS said she would be managed this year, not how posters on PA think she should be managed.

You think running in nothing races for easy wins is good for the horse. I guess it is. But I think it speaks volumes about why the sport is in serious decline right now.

[Tom]

My 2 cents - neither will running come BC time.
Both will retire, never having met on the track.

[carlonr]

The evidence for me is that despite the faster pace in her last race, she was life and death to beat St. Trinian's in an average at best final time. St. T is a decent enough horse but far from a world beater. She is a win machine no doubt, but I think we are seeing a few chinks in the armor.

The other chink I see is the blatant reversal of this year's plans by the connections. It just makes no sense to keep running in the same boring races again (and again). I think they know something is amiss. Time will tell if I'm right, but as a bettor that is the stance I'm taking. I won't be surprised if the Clement Hirsch is her last race.

Have you watched replays of her last race or just the live race?

[PaceAdvantage]

Seriously, I hate to say things like this, but the level of bias on this subject is so incomprehensible there's probably a life lesson buried in all this somewhere. Now you know how I feel when reading your posts on the subject.

I don't think I've gotten your take on this yet, so allow me to ask you point blank.

Why do you think running Zenyatta in the Personal Ensign is not the optimum decision at this moment in time?

If your goal is this years BCC, how is the Personal Ensign not a fantastic prep race, if as they say, she will only race twice more before the BCC? You get to race on dirt at the BCC distance and you face a quality opponent in Rachel Alexandra.

Where does my supposed bias work into this analysis I ask you?

[cj]

Have you watched replays of her last race or just the live race?

Yes, I've seen all her races multiple times.

[Vinnie]

My 2 cents - neither will running come BC time.
Both will retire, never having met on the track.

Honestly, I kind of feel like you do Tom. I strongly believe that we won't ever get to see these two face off in the same race, and that is in itself a shame. I love Zenyatta, however, beating the same ol' same ol's is strangely comparable to a prizefighter who is the best in the world just beating up on the same old lower rung of the competition when he knows that there is better out there that could truly put him to the test. Zenyatta is a truly gifted and unbelievable horse. It is just sad that we more than likely won't ever get the opportunity to see her in with many of the best that are currently running on a surface where most of the others generally excel.

I imagine the unblemished record is of paramount importance to the connections.

[horses721]

If the NYRA could figure out a way to move Saratoga or Belmont to California, they might get Zenyatta come out her barn and run on another track other than Santa Anita, Hollywood or Del mar. Oops, I forgot about the big chance she took riding in Arkansas a few times. Then again, maybe we should call her the Pepper's Pride of California . Just stay home and beat the same states breds that don't belong in grade 1 races that she has spent beating the last 3 years! Thanks for bringing her back Mr. Moss so the fans of California ONLY can see her race again. :sleeping:

How much traveling has Rachel done compared to Zenyatta? Better yet, how many tracks has Rachel been stabled at compared to Zenyatta? I'm sure it is easier on a horse to stay at the same place all the time and keep defeating the same inferior competition don't you think? That is a question for the Zenyatta defenders that will be upset by this post.

[carlonr]

Yes, I've seen all her races multiple times.

Exactly, what about the race are you seeing that indicates she was "all out"?

[cj]

Exactly, what about the race are you seeing that indicates she was "all out"?

In her last? You are kidding, right?

[tucker6]

In her last? You are kidding, right?
He's in love CJ. Give him a break. You were 15 once too right.

[thaskalos]

Something tells me that it will be awful quite on this board, if Zenyatta wins the BC Classic this year...

[thaskalos]

Sorry...I meant to say "quiet"...:blush:

[BluegrassProf]

Something tells me that it will be awful quite on this board, if Zenyatta wins the BC Classic this year...Why? Because she happens to be stronger and running with a bit more fight on a day when many of the others are tired from long seasons of high-caliber racing?

If it happens, color me about 3% impressed. Impressed, but miles from overwhelmed.

[senortout]

Gosh, I find myself responding when I know durn well its hopeless but here goes....

Any of you know how hard it is to keep a horse racing fit, racing and winning off workouts alone?

How to evaluate how much you mare gets out of her workouts?

The chances you take just working them out? She's priceless at this stage of her career, you know.

How about the dangers of shipping.....hard to evaluate, but some trainers by geographical location are more than a little apprehensive of shipping, and with good reason.

How about you know the nature of your mare, and know what a fighter she is? Won't you be just a little scared that her fighting for that winning post may cause her demise? Its already happened to three fine mares in my lifetime in big races....Ruffian....fighting for the lead.....
Go For Wand....headed but not admitting defeat
Eight Belles.....trying her fool head off
yes there are horses like that out there.

senortout

[PaceAdvantage]

Gosh, I find myself responding when I know durn well its hopeless but here goes....

Any of you know how hard it is to keep a horse racing fit, racing and winning off workouts alone?

How to evaluate how much you mare gets out of her workouts?

The chances you take just working them out? She's priceless at this stage of her career, you know.

How about the dangers of shipping.....hard to evaluate, but some trainers by geographical location are more than a little apprehensive of shipping, and with good reason.

How about you know the nature of your mare, and know what a fighter she is? Won't you be just a little scared that her fighting for that winning post may cause her demise? Its already happened to three fine mares in my lifetime in big races....Ruffian....fighting for the lead.....
Go For Wand....headed but not admitting defeat
Eight Belles.....trying her fool head off
yes there are horses like that out there.

senortoutThen retire them all and shut the game down.

[PaceAdvantage]

Something tells me that it will be awful quite on this board, if Zenyatta wins the BC Classic this year...If she wins the BCC then I will be the most impressed out of anyone here, and I will be the first to type how all the Zenyatta fans were right all along. I will also apologize for being a non-believer...

But something tells me I'll never have to do this...

[chickenhead]

methinks there is at least some middle ground between all these extremes.

If she won the Classic I'd be at least 4% impressed, being that A.) she's a mare, and B.) she's never run a race on dirt comparable to a normal winning BC Classic race, and C.) there is at least one very strong male expected to be in the race.

No reason to think it wouldn't require a lifetime top effort (that should be expected of any BC Classic for any horse, I'd guess), certainly a huge move forward from her previous dirt races. I would love to see her win, though, and would obviously be rooting for her.

[eastie]

I love you Boston guys...you're a riot! :lol:


the best part about the race would have been the rematch in the Classic. They suck for not bringing her to Saratoga...it's un American

[Kimsus]

Why? Because she happens to be stronger and running with a bit more fight on a day when many of the others are tired from long seasons of high-caliber racing?

If it happens, color me about 3% impressed. Impressed, but miles from overwhelmed.

You never dissapoint Prof Nutty, you are the king of yawners. High Quality racing? Who? All?

[classhandicapper]

I'm glad you fall in the Davidowitz camp. We all have our own opinions. As far as how the horse is managed, I am comparing it to how HER CONNECTIONS said she would be managed this year, not how posters on PA think she should be managed.

You think running in nothing races for easy wins is good for the horse. I guess it is. But I think it speaks volumes about why the sport is in serious decline right now.

I don't think running in nothing races is good for the horse. I think the idea that California's premier races are "nothing races" is preposterous and also think that shipping around looking for tough challenges hasn't been part of the game for decades, if ever.

In 35 years of watching this game I can't recall a single horse on the east getting criticized for not shipping out to CA or elsewhere to meet other top horses there even though at times the quality of racing was superior in the west or elsewhere.

The reason is because both NY and CA typically have a series of high level graded stakes races for almost every major category of horse. So no one has to ship in order to accumulate vast earnings or the Graded Stakes wins and placings that increase value.

Over the years the game has changed slightly because there are more opportunities to find big purses and soft spots outside NY and CA and certain trainers have several elite horses within the same category. So there is more shipping in an effort to avoid running horses owned or trained by the same person against each other and to pick up an easy purse or black type. But it's still is rare for the best horse in the west to meet the best in the east except for an occasional single race foray into a premier race when it makes sense.

That kind of thing is now usually done in the Breeder's Cup instead of the Jockey Club Gold Cup, Marboro and other such races in the fall.

I think most of these trainers and owners are looking at the long term racing schedule and creating a plan for the year that maximizes earnings, Graded Stakes prestige, etc... and culminates with the Breeder's Cup.

It simply doesn't make sense to ship a horse 3000 miles to run in a Grade 1 race elsewhere when there's a Grade 1 race at home.

[carlonr]

In her last? You are kidding, right?

I'm not kidding. Would you please tell us what were the physical indications you saw in her last race that lead you to believe she was "all out"?

[classhandicapper]

Something tells me that it will be awful quite on this board, if Zenyatta wins the BC Classic this year...

Personally, I think that's a fairly low probability event because there are so many Grade 1 older horses and rising 3YO colts gearing up it's going to be an extremely difficult task for a mare whose specialty is another surface.

If she were to win I think she'd move into legendary status.

The thing I am not looking forward to is her losing in that spot because then all these knuckleheads are going to try to diminish her accomplishments on synthetic and limited forays on dirt.

That will be a sad day because it would be approximately equivalent to trashing some of the all time great dirt horses that failed on turf when they tried it.

[carlonr]

Why? Because she happens to be stronger and running with a bit more fight on a day when many of the others are tired from long seasons of high-caliber racing?

If it happens, color me 3% impressed. Impressed, but miles from overwhelmed.

This is what I've said all along... It does not matter what Zenyatta does, there are those people out there that will never give her respect because shes not an east coast horse. It's August and some people are already creating excuses for when Zenyatta wins the BCC on dirt and against males.

[Hedevar]

She has to get in the gate before she can win.

[PaceAdvantage]

That will be a sad day because it would be approximately equivalent to trashing some of the all time great dirt horses that failed on turf when they tried it.See, this is the crux of the matter. It would in no way be equivalent to trashing some of the all time great dirt hroses that failed on turf, or vice versa.

Why?

AWS is a curious sideshow that is falling out of favor more and more each day in the United States. Bob Baffert was just on national TV bad mouthing the Del Mar surface. AWS has been around all of what? Six years?

Thus given that for the most part, AWS has yet to move out of the "experimental" category (DESPITE what you might think about California racing), it would not be the same as someone trashing an all-time great dirt horse. The history just isn't there, and that's one of the main reason why Zenyatta still has some here who refuse to call her an "all-time great" despite her amazing win streak.

Zenyatta is nothing more than an all-time great synthetic horse at this moment in time, and I use that qualification because synthetics are a third surface.

I would not use that qualification with a dirt horse because dirt racing is THE historically significant surface in American racing.

Picture it in terms of Europe. In Europe, they would not qualify Goldikova as an all-time great TURF horse. They might qualify her as an all-time great mare, but why would they qualify her with the TURF label? They run all of their major races over TURF and have been doing so since forever.

Now, if by some chance Goldikova were a synthetic specialist and not a Turf runner over in Europe, I would venture to guess Goldikova would be labeled as an all-time great synthetic runner and not an all-time great in general until she was able to beat some major-league competition over the turf...

[PaceAdvantage]

This is what I've said all along... It does not matter what Zenyatta does, there are those people out there that will never give her respect because shes not an east coast horse. It's August and some people are already creating excuses for when Zenyatta wins the BCC on dirt and against males.You're making stuff up. Pay no attention to Bluegrass Prof. That was a nutty statement.

And it has nothing to do with her being an east coast horse. For instance, I have plenty of "favorite" horses who hailed from the West Coast (when they used to run on dirt).

[carlonr]

You're making stuff up. Pay no attention to Bluegrass Prof. That was a nutty statement.

And it has nothing to do with her being an east coast horse. For instance, I have plenty of "favorite" horses who hailed from the West Coast (when they used to run on dirt).

And every single time Zenyatta wins on dirt, some people make excuses!

[Hedevar]

And every single time Zenyatta wins on dirt, some people make excuses!

All two of them.

[carlonr]

All two of them.


It's still 2 (2-0-0)!

[cj]

I don't think running in nothing races is good for the horse. I think the idea that California's premier races are "nothing races" is preposterous and also think that shipping around looking for tough challenges hasn't been part of the game for decades, if ever.

In 35 years of watching this game I can't recall a single horse on the east getting criticized for not shipping out to CA or elsewhere to meet other top horses there even though at times the quality of racing was superior in the west or elsewhere.

The reason is because both NY and CA typically have a series of high level graded stakes races for almost every major category of horse. So no one has to ship in order to accumulate vast earnings or the Graded Stakes wins and placings that increase value.

Over the years the game has changed slightly because there are more opportunities to find big purses and soft spots outside NY and CA and certain trainers have several elite horses within the same category. So there is more shipping in an effort to avoid running horses owned or trained by the same person against each other and to pick up an easy purse or black type. But it's still is rare for the best horse in the west to meet the best in the east except for an occasional single race foray into a premier race when it makes sense.

That kind of thing is now usually done in the Breeder's Cup instead of the Jockey Club Gold Cup, Marboro and other such races in the fall.

I think most of these trainers and owners are looking at the long term racing schedule and creating a plan for the year that maximizes earnings, Graded Stakes prestige, etc... and culminates with the Breeder's Cup.

It simply doesn't make sense to ship a horse 3000 miles to run in a Grade 1 race elsewhere when there's a Grade 1 race at home.

I just don't see how a class handicapper can look at the fields Zenyatta has beaten, and their subsequent performances, and conclude anything other than the fields were extremely weak. It has nothing to do with figures.

Sure, some of the 3 year olds shipped and did well, but very few of Z's vanquished foes do anything. Sure, the Distaff winner was in her wake a few times, but she was given the dream trip of life against a very weak field that day as I'm sure you know.

I'm also surprised someone that values the tradition of the game and knows the history just blindly accepts the rubber tracks like they have some standing at the top levels of the game.

[carlonr]

See, this is the crux of the matter. It would in no way be equivalent to trashing some of the all time great dirt hroses that failed on turf, or vice versa.

Why?

AWS is a curious sideshow that is falling out of favor more and more each day in the United States. Bob Baffert was just on national TV bad mouthing the Del Mar surface. AWS has been around all of what? Six years?

Thus given that for the most part, AWS has yet to move out of the "experimental" category (DESPITE what you might think about California racing), it would not be the same as someone trashing an all-time great dirt horse. The history just isn't there, and that's one of the main reason why Zenyatta still has some here who refuse to call her an "all-time great" despite her amazing win streak.

Zenyatta is nothing more than an all-time great synthetic horse at this moment in time, and I use that qualification because synthetics are a third surface.

I would not use that qualification with a dirt horse because dirt racing is THE historically significant surface in American racing.

Picture it in terms of Europe. In Europe, they would not qualify Goldikova as an all-time great TURF horse. They might qualify her as an all-time great mare, but why would they qualify her with the TURF label? They run all of their major races over TURF and have been doing so since forever.

Now, if by some chance Goldikova were a synthetic specialist and not a Turf runner over in Europe, I would venture to guess Goldikova would be labeled as an all-time great synthetic runner and not an all-time great in general until she was able to beat some major-league competition over the turf...

17 (17-0-0)!

[cj]

It simply doesn't make sense to ship a horse 3000 miles to run in a Grade 1 race elsewhere when there's a Grade 1 race at home.

Except, of course, that it is exactly what the connections said they would do and have not.

[Hedevar]

And every single time Zenyatta wins on dirt, some people make excuses!

You made it sound like a regular occurence. You can't even tell me for sure that she will race on Saturday. Everything is such a deep dark secret with that puzzling track.

[cj]

I'm not kidding. Would you please tell us what were the physical indications you saw in her last race that lead you to believe she was "all out"?

Just my opinion after watching racing for the last 30 years. The jockey was asking her for everything down the stretch and she was hard pressed to get up.

[carlonr]

I just don't see how a class handicapper can look at the fields Zenyatta has beaten, and their subsequent performances, and conclude anything other than the fields were extremely weak. It has nothing to do with figures.

Sure, some of the 3 year olds shipped and did well, but very few of Z's vanquished foes do anything. Sure, the Distaff winner was in her wake a few times, but she was given the dream trip of life against a very weak field that day as I'm sure you know.

I'm also surprised someone that values the tradition of the game and knows the history just blindly accepts the rubber tracks like they have some standing at the top levels of the game.

"Rubber tracks: Making good horses look mediocre since 2004"....If you truly believe this, then it would stand to reason that the synthetics actually make Zenyatta look not as good as she really is!

[cj]

This is what I've said all along... It does not matter what Zenyatta does, there are those people out there that will never give her respect because shes not an east coast horse. It's August and some people are already creating excuses for when Zenyatta wins the BCC on dirt and against males.

This is foolish. Plenty of west coast horses are given there due.

What will be sad is if she does win the Classic, people will look back and wonder what might have been if she had been tested a little more often.

[carlonr]

Just my opinion after watching racing for the last 30 years. The jockey was asking her for everything down the stretch and she was hard pressed to get up.

Then why were her ears not pinned back?

[cj]

"Rubber tracks: Making good horses look mediocre since 2004"....If you truly believe this, then it would stand to reason that the synthetics actually make Zenyatta look not as good as she really is!

We don't really know, and it is a shame we will get to find out exactly once.

[cj]

Then why were her ears not pinned back?

All horses don't have the same traits as I'm sure you know. If you want to believe she is some genius horse that knows where the finish line is, good luck to you. If she wasn't all out, why the close finish under a driving rider?

[carlonr]

This is foolish. Plenty of west coast horses are given there due.

What will be sad is if she does win the Classic, people will look back and wonder what might have been if she had been tested a little more often.

It will only be sad for a pitiful few. If she wins back to back BCC's against males on two different surfaces, she will go down in history as the best of all time!

[carlonr]

All horses don't have the same traits as I'm sure you know. If you want to believe she is some genius horse that knows where the finish line is, good luck to you. If she wasn't all out, why the close finish under a driving rider?

That is more of a commentary of when Mike Smith starts to ask her rather than whether she has reached maximum speed and is "all out". "All out" usually means that the horse has given everything they possibly have. In her last race, Zenyatta had plenty more to give! She was no where close to being "all out"

[cj]

It will only be sad for a pitiful few. If she wins back to back BCC's against males on two different surfaces, she will go down in history as the best of all time!

Well, I wouldn't think that and I'm sure most others would not either. But hey, every fan is entitled to their own opinion.

[Headbanger]

That is more of a commentary of when Mike Smith starts to ask her rather than whether she has reached maximum speed and is "all out". "All out" usually means that the horse has given everything they possibly have. In her last race, Zenyatta had plenty more to give! She was no where close to being "all out"

Wrong again there buddy...as usual.

According to Equibase's chart comment definitions, this is the definition of a horse being all out:

All Out: When a horse has the lead and is under extreme pressure to hold off another rival.

You can't for a second believe Zenyatta wasn't under extreme pressure to get by and hold off St. Trinians if you know a thing about horse racing. I suppose if you think she wasn't all out to beat St. Trinians, you would have labelled her gut wrenching win over Anabaa's Creation handily.

[cj]

That is more of a commentary of when Mike Smith starts to ask her rather than whether she has reached maximum speed and is "all out". "All out" usually means that the horse has given everything they possibly have. In her last race, Zenyatta had plenty more to give! She was no where close to being "all out"

This is where we would differ. I don't believe she is the kind of horse you can ask earlier and get the same response. This is a fallacy many have about closers. Check the 2008 Vanity replay some time if you disagree.

[carlonr]

All horses don't have the same traits as I'm sure you know. If you want to believe she is some genius horse that knows where the finish line is, good luck to you. If she wasn't all out, why the close finish under a driving rider?

Ears pricked or pinned is not a "trait". It is a physiological occurrence, no different that a humans pupils expanding when they are excited.

[carlonr]

This is where we would differ. I don't believe she is the kind of horse you can ask earlier and get the same response. This is a fallacy many have about closers. Check the 2008 Vanity replay some time if you disagree.

There are levels in regard for how much you ask a horse for and when?

[carlonr]

Wrong again there buddy...as usual.

According to Equibase's chart comment definitions, this is the definition of a horse being all out:

All Out: When a horse has the lead and is under extreme pressure to hold off another rival.

You can't for a second believe Zenyatta wasn't under extreme pressure to get by and hold off St. Trinians if you know a thing about horse racing. I suppose if you think she wasn't all out to beat St. Trinians, you would have labelled her gut wrenching win over Anabaa's Creation handily.

Zenyatta did not "have the lead" according to your definition. She passed the horse that was in the lead! The horse that was all out was " St. Trinians ", which is further eveidenced by her not resuming training after the race!!!

[DeanT]

Sure she was all out to win; they were coming home in under 12. Man O War would have been all out.

She has been all out before, like that last race at Del Mar where they got three quarters in 13 and change.

Give her a set up she runs a huge number, like she did in the previous year in the Lady's Secret or vanity (one of the two, I can not remember). Give her a poor set up she will be all out. Such is the life of a deep closer.

[carlonr]

Sure she was all out to win; they were coming home in under 12. Man O War would have been all out.

She has been all out before, like that last race at Del Mar where they got three quarters in 13 and change.

Give her a set up she runs a huge number, like she did in the previous year in the Lady's Secret or vanity (one of the two, I can not remember). Give her a poor set up she will be all out. Such is the life of a deep closer.

My contention is that we have yet to see Zenyatta at full speed. She is still accelerating at the end of every race! It is not that she has accelerated to maximum speed and is just holding on.

[carlonr]

The horse that was actually "all out"!

DEL MAR, Calif. - St Trinians, who gave the undefeated champion Zenyatta a scare in the Grade 1 Vanity Handicap at Hollywood Park in June before losing by a half-length, will miss the $300,000 Clement Hirsch Stakes at Del Mar on Aug. 7 because of soreness, trainer Mike Mitchell said on Saturday.
St Trinians will be turned out and pointed for a 2011 campaign, Mitchell said. The decision was reached on Saturday after consulting with owners Dan Capen and Laura Chavers.
"We're not going to run," Mitchell said. "I blew her out at Hollywood Park and I brought her down here and she's body sore and stiff. If I were to blame it on anything, I'd blame it on taking on Zenyatta."

[cj]

Sure she was all out to win; they were coming home in under 12. Man O War would have been all out.

She has been all out before, like that last race at Del Mar where they got three quarters in 13 and change.

Give her a set up she runs a huge number, like she did in the previous year in the Lady's Secret or vanity (one of the two, I can not remember). Give her a poor set up she will be all out. Such is the life of a deep closer.

But, this is where I am leery this year. She has had the setup, and she did not run the huge number. Time will tell, and I actually hope I'm wrong.

[cj]

My contention is that we have yet to see Zenyatta at full speed. She is still accelerating at the end of every race! It is not that she has accelerated to maximum speed and is just holding on.

So you refuse to watch the 2008 Vanity?

[carlonr]

Wrong again there buddy...as usual.

According to Equibase's chart comment definitions, this is the definition of a horse being all out:

All Out: When a horse has the lead and is under extreme pressure to hold off another rival.

You can't for a second believe Zenyatta wasn't under extreme pressure to get by and hold off St. Trinians if you know a thing about horse racing. I suppose if you think she wasn't all out to beat St. Trinians, you would have labelled her gut wrenching win over Anabaa's Creation handily.

Since you want to use Equibase as the definition, show me a chart from Equibase that says Zenyatta was ever" all out"

[DeanT]

My contention is that we have yet to see Zenyatta at full speed. She is still accelerating at the end of every race! It is not that she has accelerated to maximum speed and is just holding on.
Is she capable of running a better figure than she did in almost all her races - sure, a blind man could see that. Was she accelerating at the wire in her last? I doubt it. She was simply decelerating less than the second place finisher. She was very tired after her last race.

[carlonr]

Is she capable of running a better figure than she did in almost all her races - sure, a blind man could see that. Was she accelerating at the wire in her last? I doubt it. She was simply decelerating less than the second place finisher. She was very tired after her last race.


Show me any number that proves that Zenyatta was decelerating. Any number you want to use. Feet per second, Splits, final 16th, any number.

[chickenhead]

Show me any number that proves that Zenyatta was decelerating. Any number you want to use. Feet per second, Splits, final 16th, any number.

like CJ said, look at the 2008 Vanity, but I'm sure there are others.

It's not really a matter of opinion.

[carlonr]

like CJ said, look at the 2008 Vanity, but I'm sure there are others.

It's not really a matter of opinion.

Where are the numbers? Since it is not a matter of opinion, then produce the numbers. And if you actually read the post, (Dean T #167) the reference to her decelerating was specifically regarding her last race. Again show me the numbers that say she was decelerating..and while you're at it, produce the equibase chart that says Zenyatta was "all out"

[chickenhead]

what, are your fingers broken? Look them up yourself....a normal person would have familiarized themselves with her numbers prior to stating:

My contention is that we have yet to see Zenyatta at full speed. She is still accelerating at the end of every race!

no need for opinions or personal contentions, they do actually time the split times. Her final splits are generally faster than her earlier, but not always.

[carlonr]

what, are your fingers broken? Look them up yourself....a normal person would have familiarized themselves with her numbers prior to stating:



no need for opinions or personal contentions, they do actually time the splits.


Then produce the numbers!

[chickenhead]

Then produce the numbers!

be honest....are you now, or have you ever previously been -- required to wear a helmet when going outdoors?

Depending on your answer, I may look up the numbers for you.

[carlonr]

be honest....are you now, or have you ever previously been -- required to wear a helmet when going outdoors?

Depending on your answer, I may look up the numbers for you.


Numbers?

[Headbanger]

Since you want to use Equibase as the definition, show me a chart from Equibase that says Zenyatta was ever" all out"

I don't need a chart caller to tell me if a horse is all out...I can see if a horse is all out with my own eyes. You have to be retarted if you don't think she was all out to get up in the Vanity against St. Trinians. For your own sake, go watch the replay and familarize yourself with what it means to be all out...because that race was the pure definition of a horse being all out to get up. Besides, chart callers call charts wrong all the time. They miss trouble, give wrong beaten lengths, etc. But seriously, if you can't figure out that Zenyatta was all out in the Vanity, please keep betting because we need money like that in pools.

[thaskalos]

But, this is where I am leery this year. She has had the setup, and she did not run the huge number. Time will tell, and I actually hope I'm wrong. Cj, you have been watching races for a long time...as have I.

Have you EVER seen a more visually impressive horse that Zenyatta...race after race? She doesn't just win her races...she INHALES the competition.

There have been other great stretch runners before her...and some of them ran on the GRASS - which also favors a stretch running style...but NONE of those stretch runners have exuded the "air of invincibility" that has been Zenyatta's trademark, race after race. IMO...we still have not seen her best effort.

Yes...in her last race, she appeared to be "all out" to win.

But let's not forget that she was facing fitness issues going into the race...that had many of us fearing that she might even lose!

She was also the recipient of a very bad ride from Mike Smith, IMO...who allowed her to be caught drifting wide...at the very moment that the other horses were "straightening" for home...causing even PA to call her win "very impressive"!

Is she capable of running a BIG number on the dirt? I don't have her past performances in front of me, and I may be wrong...but didn't she run a "Beyer" of 104, on her first trip over the dirt at OP...and isn't that her second highest rated race to date? I think she is equally comfortable on both surfaces.

I am convinced that, unlike any other horse any of us have ever seen...this horse is the TRUE professional...doing only as much as she has to do, to get the job done.

I honestly think that she will be in the BC Classic...where she will re-write history.

[bisket]

heres a song i'm sure everyone will appreciate ;)
woohooooooooo!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pz2kvJf22gs

[carlonr]

I don't need a chart caller to tell me if a horse is all out...I can see if a horse is all out with my own eyes. You have to be retarted if you don't think she was all out to get up in the Vanity against St. Trinians. For your own sake, go watch the replay and familarize yourself with what it means to be all out...because that race was the pure definition of a horse being all out to get up. Besides, chart callers call charts wrong all the time. They miss trouble, give wrong beaten lengths, etc. But seriously, if you can't figure out that Zenyatta was all out in the Vanity, please keep betting because we need money like that in pools.

According to Mike Smith, she had plenty left in the tank. I 'll take his word over yours. According to the connections, she came out of the race great and is even training better now than she was before the BCC. Since they have not been wrong yet, I'll take their word over yours. I'll just file your response alongside the one that says horses pricking or pinning their ears is a personality trait!

[Headbanger]

According to Mike Smith, she had plenty left in the tank. I 'll take his word over yours. According to the connections, she came out of the race great and is even training better now than she was before the BCC. Since they have not been wrong yet, I'll take their word over yours. I'll just file your response alongside the one that says horses pricking or pinning their ears is a personality trait!

Ooooooohhhh, you are going to take the word of a pinhead who isn't even very good anymore saying that she had plenty left in the tank. These guys will say a horse who broke hiis maiden by 5 lengths is the best horse he's ever been on, and my god, you would probably believe it. Please, you are out of your league on this discussion, especially against CJ.

[OntheRail]

That is more of a commentary of when Mike Smith starts to ask her rather than whether she has reached maximum speed and is "all out". "All out" usually means that the horse has given everything they possibly have. In her last race, Zenyatta had plenty more to give! She was no where close to being "all out"
:lol: Thanks for the chuckle... been a long day I needed that.

[DeanT]

Where are the numbers? Since it is not a matter of opinion, then produce the numbers. And if you actually read the post, (Dean T #167) the reference to her decelerating was specifically regarding her last race. Again show me the numbers that say she was decelerating..and while you're at it, produce the equibase chart that says Zenyatta was "all out"

If you think she was speeding up at the wire, then you think if the race was 1/16th further, she would have done that in 5 and a half seconds. There is no way in hell she would have.

[Hedevar]

You gentlemen are wasting your time. Based on a prior conversation Carl only believes what he reads in the papers and what he has in his files of quotes, not anything anyone with any experience says on this board.

[carlonr]

You gentlemen are wasting your time. Based on a prior conversation Carl only believes what he reads in the papers and what he has in his files of quotes, not anything anyone with any experience says on this board.

What's really funny is that you have no idea how deeply involved I am in horse racing. As a matter of fact there are not many facets of racing that I am not involved in!

[Hedevar]

Good for you.

[carlonr]

If you think she was speeding up at the wire, then you think if the race was 1/16th further, she would have done that in 5 and a half seconds. There is no way in hell she would have.


SHOW ME THE NUMBERS THAT SAY SHE WAS DECELERATING!

[carlonr]

If you think she was speeding up at the wire, then you think if the race was 1/16th further, she would have done that in 5 and a half seconds. There is no way in hell she would have.

There is also the possibility (that you are not considering) that a horse (especially a deep closer) can experience moments in time where his speed is consistent and not decelerating!

[bisket]

If you think she was speeding up at the wire, then you think if the race was 1/16th further, she would have done that in 5 and a half seconds. There is no way in hell she would have.
got news for ya...... 5 isn't out of the question!!!

[bks]

I know it's spitting into a brisk wind here, but if Shirreffs follows the likeliest path for her (Del Mar race in Aug, Belmont in October, Churchill in November), Zenyatta will have raced six times in 2010 in four states on six different tracks, three each on dirt and and synthetic, and one race against the best males in the world at a classic distance. All races GI, IIRC.

No other mare will attempt this, and none would have a chance in hell of emerging undefeated. Except Zenyatta.

[born2ride]

That is more of a commentary of when Mike Smith starts to ask her rather than whether she has reached maximum speed and is "all out". "All out" usually means that the horse has given everything they possibly have. In her last race, Zenyatta had plenty more to give! She was no where close to being "all out"

If "rallied determinedly under urging to wear down St Trinians in the final stages" is not all out, then it's pretty darn close.

[Deepsix]

If "rallied determinedly under urging to wear down St Trinians in the final stages" is not all out, then it's pretty darn close.

Grin, good notation.

[tucker6]

I know it's spitting into a brisk wind here, but if Shirreffs follows the likeliest path for her (Del Mar race in Aug, Belmont in October, Churchill in November), Zenyatta will have raced six times in 2010 in four states on six different tracks, three each on dirt and and synthetic, and one race against the best males in the world at a classic distance. All races GI, IIRC.

No other mare will attempt this, and none would have a chance in hell of emerging undefeated. Except Zenyatta.
Do YOU really consider all her races to have been G1's this year?? Are female G1's equal to the male G1"s?? If not, why are you comparing them if they aren't equal. News flash. They aren't equal in quality.

[PaceAdvantage]

It will only be sad for a pitiful few. If she wins back to back BCC's against males on two different surfaces, she will go down in history as the best of all time!Best what? Surely you can't believe Secretariat, Seattle Slew, and Spectacular Bid would have gone down to defeat to Zenyatta?

And thus, if you can't believe that (and no sane fan of racing should believe that), then she can't go down in history as the best of all time. And rightfully so.

Nothing she has done to date (and let me repeat that...NOTHING) leads me to believe she is the best of all time. A repeat win the BCC will not convince me she is the best of all time.

Best female of all time...I could certainly buy that should she win the BCC at Churchill...but best of all time EVER?

Surely you jest.

[PaceAdvantage]

SHOW ME THE NUMBERS THAT SAY SHE WAS DECELERATING!If you're the experienced racing person that you claim to be, then nobody should have to show you anything. The numbers are all there for you to see on your own.

[BluegrassProf]

Best what? Surely you can't believe Secretariat, Seattle Slew, and Spectacular Bid would have gone down to defeat to Zenyatta?

And thus, if you can't believe that (and no sane fan of racing should believe that), then she can't go down in history as the best of all time. And rightfully so.

Nothing she has done to date (and let me repeat that...NOTHING) leads me to believe she is the best of all time. A repeat win the BCC will not convince me she is the best of all time.

Best female of all time...I could certainly buy that should she win the BCC at Churchill...but best of all time EVER?

Surely you jest.So why is my comment so nutty? Your attitude mirrors mine almost exactly, though I still wouldn't place her in the top female of all time slot (which you know as well as I is ultimately subjective, and disagreements are unsurprising). Make no mistake, I'll certainly be impressed if she runs in the Classic and wins (as I noted previously), but that sentiment is tempered by watching her season unfold as we speak. None of us - least of all yourself, I would think - are making her campaign into something it clearly isn't.

I continue to feel as I have felt: at the end of the day, perspective of time will put Zenyatta in her rightful place in the pantheon of greatness; it's pretty clear that, for the time being, the issue is so charged that a rational conversation gets the mud flinging (I expect that stuff from Kimmy, but you, Pace? Really? Critique my core rationale all day long, but damn, I expect so much more...).

She's a great, wonderful athlete - and this is a great big, old game.

I'll be thrilled if she runs in the Classic, as any reasonable person would be, and I'll be thrilled if she gets home first, as any reasonable person would be. I live a stone's toss from CD, and will be there with bells on.

[ohbaby]

I'm still upset Zenyatta got robbed of Horse of the Year. I don't care how great a year Rachel had, she was not the best horse last year. When you face the best this world has to offer in the Breeders Cup and beat them the way Zenyatta did, she IS the best horse that year. Period. Not to mention she went undefeated all year in nothing less than Grade 1 and 2s.

If nothing else, this year confirms they made a huge blunder.

The face off between the 2, is not even interesting now, or even a contest.

[PaceAdvantage]

So why is my comment so nutty?It's nutty because in my opinion, it would be absolutely absurd to try and downplay another BCC victory by Zenyatta, this time over dirt and what is expected to be more than one very serious dirt runner in the field.

I didn't think you were serious when you wrote: "Because she happens to be stronger and running with a bit more fight on a day when many of the others are tired from long seasons of high-caliber racing?" That's just a crazy reach.

[thaskalos]

C'mon Professor...3% impressed, for a mare doing what the vast majority of the people on this board deem impossible?

I knew that you were hard to please but this is hard to understand...especially coming from a man of letters.

[BluegrassProf]

It's nutty because in my opinion, it would be absolutely absurd to try and downplay another BCC victory by Zenyatta, this time over dirt and what is expected to be more than one very serious dirt runner in the field.

I didn't think you were serious when you wrote: "Because she happens to be stronger and running with a bit more fight on a day when many of the others are tired from long seasons of high-caliber racing?" That's just a crazy reach.So you would agree that it's likely that Zenyatta's campaign, by November, will be of equal magnitude to that of each competitor? (I know this is speculation re: the likely BC starters and starts over the next few months, but that's the best game we can play at the moment.) More importantly, that said campaign should be relegated to little more than footnote status when we consider her place in the larger pantheon? When I refer to being impressed with a BC win, it's on the grander scale, not just with respect to the year: a win would certainly be impressive, particularly given the likely scenario setting up, but a horse's legacy - even a horse's campaign over the course of a season - is the sum of its parts.

Again, make no mistake: I'll be impressed if she runs in the Classic and wins; frankly, I'll be impressed if she runs in the Classic at all - true enough Thaskalos, perhaps I should've chosen less hyperbolic words . It'd be one of the greatest races of our collective lifetime, of that I hold no ridiculous illusions. But it has to be viewed in consideration of her campaign this year - if we're of the mindset that a career is defined by seasons rather than races, I think it's equally absurd to think otherwise. Call me crazy. Or nutty.

[BluegrassProf]

Please note that when I say "greatest races" w/ respect to the BC, I'm speaking in primarily emotional terms: realistically impressed - but again, for myself at least, it's a tempered sentiment.

Because you consider that tempering irrational, Pace, I suppose I can infer the basic conclusions that, per your comments, a BC win for Zenyatta would both seal the envelope on a HOY campaign for 2010 as well as bump her straight to the top of your all-time list (given the back-to-back BC wins).

Just as I disagree with ohbaby in his last post, it's here that our difference of opinion seems to lie: no matter the competition, no matter the location, I simply cannot place that kind of value on BC wins...tiptoeing hesitantly to the end-of-season race is obviously a strategy, but as impressive as victories surely are (particularly this year, if a victory is indeed in the cards, given the likely starters and surface), I can't help but consider everything else along the way, from quality of competition to track to travel and beyond (not just grades, of course). With that in mind, I cannot agree with those sentiment re: Zenyatta's 2010, let alone her status as "greatest."

Hey, perhaps we'll all be pleasantly surprised in the next few months with something really wild, like a big dirt race, and I'll eat my words graciously. Lord knows my perspective on the BC isn't changing. That's the beautiful thing: we can agree to disagree all day long.

[andymays]

http://www.horseraceinsider.com/carryover-2-0/the-sportsman-finally-sportsmanlike/

Excerpt:

Not since “Charlie’s Angels” have two or more females looked so good together and the time is now. Why? Anything can happen to these athletes. If they are sound and fit, run them against each other now. We can’t bet that they’ll be ready or healthy in November (remember Big Brown v. Curlin?).

Jackson put the pressure where he likes it: on other people. And he put it right on Moss’s nose to bring his mare to New York sans Security Barns.

Meanwhile, Zenyatta’s trainer John Shirreffs readies his alpha mare for the Clement Hirsch.

So NYRA must also ratchet the pressure by making the Personal Ensign a run for $1 million. Should that lure both connections and handful of others, fans may have their dream race.

Too much can happen between now and November. Let us not forget that.

Thanks to Jackson, at least we actually have three weeks instead of three days to think about it.

[carlonr]

If you're the experienced racing person that you claim to be, then nobody should have to show you anything. The numbers are all there for you to see on your own.


The numbers are not there, that's the point!

Also, in the past when I was requested by you and other moderators/members to produce data, I did exactly that.

Why do you not request the same of others?

[carlonr]

Best what? Surely you can't believe Secretariat, Seattle Slew, and Spectacular Bid would have gone down to defeat to Zenyatta?

And thus, if you can't believe that (and no sane fan of racing should believe that), then she can't go down in history as the best of all time. And rightfully so.

Nothing she has done to date (and let me repeat that...NOTHING) leads me to believe she is the best of all time. A repeat win the BCC will not convince me she is the best of all time.

Best female of all time...I could certainly buy that should she win the BCC at Churchill...but best of all time EVER?

Surely you jest.

The key is two different surfaces, one of which you and your buddies despise and use to downplay Zenyatta's greatness. It really is immaterial, because the press will go nuts crowning her the best ever!

[born2ride]

Please note that when I say "greatest races" w/ respect to the BC, I'm speaking in primarily emotional terms: realistically impressed - but again, for myself at least, it's a tempered sentiment.

Because you consider that tempering irrational, Pace, I suppose I can infer the basic conclusions that, per your comments, a BC win for Zenyatta would both seal the envelope on a HOY campaign for 2010 as well as bump her straight to the top of your all-time list (given the back-to-back BC wins).

Just as I disagree with ohbaby in his last post, it's here that our difference of opinion seems to lie: no matter the competition, no matter the location, I simply cannot place that kind of value on BC wins...tiptoeing hesitantly to the end-of-season race is obviously a strategy, but as impressive as victories surely are (particularly this year, if a victory is indeed in the cards, given the likely starters and surface), I can't help but consider everything else along the way, from quality of competition to track to travel and beyond (not just grades, of course). With that in mind, I cannot agree with those sentiment re: Zenyatta's 2010, let alone her status as "greatest."

Hey, perhaps we'll all be pleasantly surprised in the next few months with something really wild, like a big dirt race, and I'll eat my words graciously. Lord knows my perspective on the BC isn't changing. That's the beautiful thing: we can agree to disagree all day long.

Though a win in this years Classic would very much be impressive, moreso if she did so remaining undefeated, but that wouldn't mean she is the best female of all time. IMO her resume is lacking to be considered "the best" as the challenges have been few and they're spaced too far apart. Not that she has to ship all over the place and faces males each time out, set track or stakes records, or run once a month. But the best have not been lightly raced, they've run on surfaces favored by their competitors, and have either faced males more than once in a year or set track/stakes records. I do think she is one of the best, but not the best and probably not even in the top 10 females of all time regardless of how this year pans out.

[born2ride]

The key is two different surfaces, one of which you and your buddies despise and use to downplay Zenyatta's greatness. It really is immaterial, because the press will go nuts crowning her the best ever!

If we're going to crown a horse the best ever after having averaged one race every 55 days against so so competition for the most part all in an effort to pad the undefeated streak, then indeed racing is in decline.

[carlonr]

If we're going to crown a horse the best ever after having averaged one race every 55 days against so so competition for the most part all in an effort to pad the undefeated streak, then indeed racing is in decline.

If having an undefeated streak is so easy, then why have there not been many others who have acheived it using this very simple formula?

[andymays]

If having an undefeated streak is so easy, then why have there not been many others who have acheived it using this very simple formula?
Once she won the Breeders Cup Classic and all the acollades that went with it don't you think the had an obligation to take on better company in some of the races this year? That's what they promised when they brought her back. This campaign is almost like letting a Quality Road run in Filly and Mare graded races when his connections feel like he needs an easy race. By the way I'm not real happy with Rachels campaing either and I think most posters here feel the same way.

[carlonr]

Once she won the Breeders Cup Classic and all the acollades that went with it don't you think the had an obligation to take on better company in some of the races this year? That's what they promised when they brought her back. This campaign is almost like letting a Quality Road run in Filly and Mare graded races when his connections feel like he needs an easy race. By the way I'm not real happy with Rachels campaing either and I think most posters here feel the same way.

They did! They shipped to Oaklawn. The other so called better company did not show up! They can't help it if people are afraid to run against their horse. I think that people should be all over the various others connections for not shipping to California to defeat Zenyatta! Go take on the champion and beat her! It's that simple!

[Dahoss9698]

They did! They shipped to Oaklawn. The other so called better company did not show up! They can't help it if people are afraid to run against their horse. I think that people should be all over the various others connections for not shipping to California to defeat Zenyatta! Go take on the champion and beat her! It's that simple!

No one wants to run on synthetic! It's that simple!

[carlonr]

No one wants to run on synthetic! It's that simple!

That's an excuse! They came and ran in the BC two years in a row. The prestige of defeating the great Zenyatta would be worth more financially long- term than the purse money for the BC races!

[andymays]

They did! They shipped to Oaklawn. The other so called better company did not show up! They can't help it if people are afraid to run against their horse. I think that people should be all over the various others connections for not shipping to California to defeat Zenyatta! Go take on the champion and beat her! It's that simple!

Carl, if you think Rachel was even close to being ready to run then you're dillusional. I don't think Rachel could beat Zenyatta so far this year but I think she would have trounced her last year.

"People" are afraid to run on synthetic surfaces because of the career ending injuries that happen all the time. "People" including John Shireffs and Jerry Moss are afraid to run at Del Mar and have said that the surface has problems. Both John Shirreffs and Jerry Moss dislike synthetic surfaces so why wouldn't anyone else take their word for it and stay away?

Zenyatta will most likely run at Del Mar because they want to support California racing. Not because they like the surfaces there.

Do you truly believe some of the stuff you post? :rolleyes:

[carlonr]

No one wants to run on synthetic! It's that simple!

If that is the reason, then why was the field so small at Oaklawn when she ran?

[carlonr]

Carl, if you think Rachel was even close to being ready to run then you're dillusional. I don't think Rachel could beat Zenyatta so far this year but I think she would have trounced her last year.

"People" are afraid to run on synthetic surfaces because of the career ending injuries that happen all the time. "People" including John Shireffs and Jerry Moss are afraid to run at Del Mar and have said that the surface has problems. Both John Shirreffs and Jerry Moss dislike synthetic surfaces so why wouldn't anyone else take their word for it and stay away?

Zenyatta will most likely run at Del Mar because they want to support California racing. Not because they like the surfaces there.

Do you truly believe some of the stuff you post? :rolleyes:

Where were all of the dirt challengers @ Oaklawn? Oaklawn is not synthetic!!!
It has nothing to do with synthetics..that's your pet peeve. If Zenyatta were vulnerable, there should have been 14 horses ready to take her on @ Oaklawn which again is not synthetic!!!

[andymays]

If that is the reason, then why was the field so small at Oaklawn when she ran?

Carl you say you're involved in horse racing on many levels yet you defend things that the majority of Trainers and Owners and Horseplayers know is total B.S.

Very few people can defend Del Mars surface. It is of poor quality and totally innapropriate for a summer meet in Southern Calfornia. If you took the time to speak with the people you say you work so closely with you would know that.

[carlonr]

Carl you say you're involved in horse racing on many levels yet you defend things that the majority of Trainers and Owners and Horseplayers know is total B.S.

Very few people can defend Del Mars surface. It is of poor quality and totally innapropriate for a summer meet in Southern Calfornia. If you took the time to speak with the people you say you work so closely with you would know that.

I'm not defending any surface. I'm saying there are not many people who want to take on Zenyatta..period! End of story! Answer the question. If Zenyatta is so vulnerable, then why was there not a full field @ Oaklawn on dirt!

[carlonr]

Carl you say you're involved in horse racing on many levels yet you defend things that the majority of Trainers and Owners and Horseplayers know is total B.S.

Very few people can defend Del Mars surface. It is of poor quality and totally innapropriate for a summer meet in Southern Calfornia. If you took the time to speak with the people you say you work so closely with you would know that.

You want to turn every issue into a syntehtic issue. Read these words.

OAKLAWN PARK DOES NOT HAVE A SYNTHETIC TRACK!

[andymays]

Where were all of the dirt challengers @ Oaklawn? Oaklawn is not synthetic!!!
It has nothing to do with synthetics..that's your pet peeve. If Zenyatta were vulnerable, there should have been 14 horses ready to take her on @ Oaklawn which again is not synthetic!!!


It's not only my pet peeve its a pet peeve of John Shirreffs and Jerry Moss both of whom dislike synthetic surfaces.

http://www.insidesocal.com/horseracing/2009/10/shirreffs-synthetics-like-runn.html

Excerpt:

But guess what? Shirreffs hates the synthetics tracks . He always has, and probably always will.

"I'm more into developing young horses, and I find that young horses really don't like training on synthetic surfaces," he said. "Synthetic surfaces are like training on Velcro, where the horse's foot lands and it doesn't slide, it just sticks to the ground. Depending upon how synthetic the surface is, they can't rotate their foot into the track and push off. So if you can imagine running along flat-footed all the time without getting up on your toes and pushing off, I think that's probably about how it would feel to a human."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm sorry was the race at Oaklawn open to all? I must have missed that. :rolleyes:

I have given Zenyatta her due in the past but to defend this campaign is to defend the indefensible given the past quotes from her camp.

[andymays]

You want to turn every issue into a syntehtic issue. Read these words.

OAKLAWN PARK DOES NOT HAVE A SYNTHETIC TRACK!

No Sh*t Sherlock!

[carlonr]

It's not only my pet peeve its a pet peeve of John Shirreffs and Jerry Moss both of whom dislike synthetic surfaces.

http://www.insidesocal.com/horseracing/2009/10/shirreffs-synthetics-like-runn.html

Excerpt:

But guess what? Shirreffs hates the synthetics tracks . He always has, and probably always will.

"I'm more into developing young horses, and I find that young horses really don't like training on synthetic surfaces," he said. "Synthetic surfaces are like training on Velcro, where the horse's foot lands and it doesn't slide, it just sticks to the ground. Depending upon how synthetic the surface is, they can't rotate their foot into the track and push off. So if you can imagine running along flat-footed all the time without getting up on your toes and pushing off, I think that's probably about how it would feel to a human."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm sorry was the race at Oaklawn open to all? I must have missed that. :rolleyes:

I have given Zenyatta her due in the past but to defend this campaign is to defend the indefensible given the past quotes from her camp.

If Zenyatta had not run at Oaklawn, there would have been enough entries for an "also eligible" list.

[carlonr]

I have to leave. We have a horse running @ Del Mar today and I have guests that I need to prepare for. I'll be back after the races!

This little tidbit:

If Rachel Alexandra or Zenyatta fails to start in the Apple Blossom, some of its conditions will change. The distance, however, will remain a mile and an eighth and the base weight wll stay at 123 pounds, but there will be weight allowances for nonwinners of a graded stakes. Further, the field size will not be limited to 10.

Where were the dirt challengers?

[andymays]

If Zenyatta had not run at Oaklawn, there would have been enough entries for an "also eligible" list.

It's hard to take you seriously when you defend this campaign given past statements from her camp and past events. You've almost achieved gm10 status. Good luck.

[carlonr]

It's hard to take you seriously when you defend this campaign given past statements from her camp and past events. You've almost achieved gm10 status. Good luck.

I'm stating facts. Zenyatta shipped to Oaklawn on dirt and there were very few challangers and synthetics had absolutely noting to do with their decision.

I'm also stating an opinion that the reason the challangers were few was that they did not think that had a chance.

If you have some other notion as to why they did not show up on dirt, then you should share it!

The field was open to more than 10 entrants since one of the big 2 canceled.

[andymays]

I'm stating facts. Zenyatta shipped to Oaklawn on dirt and there were very few challangers and synthetics had absolutely noting to do with their decision.

I'm also stating an opinion that the reason the challangers were few was that they did not think that had a chance.

If you have some other notion as to why they did not show up on dirt, then you should share it!

The field was open to more than 10 entrants since one of the big 2 canceled.

Yes, synthetics had nothing to do with the Oaklawn race. I don't know why you keep saying that. Of course most connections would shy away from challenging her given her past accomplishments. It wasn't like the race was open to all comers. The purse was lowered as well after Rachel couldn't make it.

[carlonr]

Yes, synthetics had nothing to do with the Oaklawn race. I don't know why you keep saying that. Of course most connections would shy away from challenging her given her past accomplishments. It wasn't like the race was open to all comers. The purse was lowered as well after Rachel couldn't make it.


Lowered to "only' half a million smacakeroos!

[andymays]

Lowered to "only' half a million smacakeroos!

I thought you were leaving us for a while? ;)

[carlonr]

I thought you were leaving us for a while? ;)

Out the door.

[OntheRail]

They did! They shipped to Oaklawn. The other so called better company did not show up! They can't help it if people are afraid to run against their horse. I think that people should be all over the various others connections for not shipping to California to defeat Zenyatta! Go take on the champion and beat her! It's that simple!

The "OTHER BETTER COMPANY" was never pointed to that race.... and the fact that it was EARLY APRIL and most QUALITY dirt runners are not up to speed due to the weather and so forth. Was the only reason Zenyatta has ever stepped a hoof on the Oaklawn Dirt. Now that the DIRT RUNNERS are up to speed Zenyatta will not come EAST to run against OTHER BETTER COMPANY but instead will stay in Cali and Duck it out on rubber at DelMar.

[cj]

I'm not defending any surface. I'm saying there are not many people who want to take on Zenyatta..period! End of story! Answer the question. If Zenyatta is so vulnerable, then why was there not a full field @ Oaklawn on dirt!

Exactly which horses were ready in April that ran well last year, females of course? I can answer, none.

[Kimsus]

The "OTHER BETTER COMPANY" was never pointed to that race.... and the fact that it was EARLY APRIL and most QUALITY dirt runners are not up to speed due to the weather and so forth. Was the only reason Zenyatta has ever stepped a hoof on the Oaklawn Dirt. Now that the DIRT RUNNERS are up to speed Zenyatta will not come EAST to run against OTHER BETTER COMPANY but instead will stay in Cali and Duck it out on rubber at DelMar.

Interesting this coming from a backer of a horse that will finally make her debut in a gr.1 in late August of this year. There's plenty of ducking going on, care to expand your selective thinking...

[cj]

Interesting this coming from a backer of a horse that will finally make her debut in a gr.1 in late August of this year. There's plenty of ducking going on, care to expand your selective thinking...

Rachel has already beaten a subsequent G1 winners this year. How about Z? Maybe she has, I don't remember.

[Kimsus]

Exactly which horses were ready in April that ran well last year, females of course? I can answer, none.

I always find this argument, a convenient excuse. But would this not also include Zenyatta? Granted some layoffs were longer than others but that is what you get for ducking the rest of 2009 post Woodward. This discussion has been talked to death CJ. No one would be at their best in April, but both had their preps, race was pushed back to accomodate a horse. Jackson knew he wasn't going to win so he panicked and reneged on the agreement, this had nothing to do with readiness. Look at her today, she is still not significantly better than she was in The Fleur DL. Jackson ducked his way out of losing, that was all it was.

[Kimsus]

Rachel has already beaten a subsequent G1 winners this year. How about Z? Maybe she has, I don't remember.

I still assume you are talking about that drug injected Florida wonder.

[cj]

I always find this argument, a convenient excuse. But would this not also include Zenyatta? Granted some layoffs were longer than others but that is what you get for ducking the rest of 2009 post Woodward. This discussion has been talked to death CJ. No one would be at their best in April, but both had their preps, race was pushed back to accomodate a horse. Jackson knew he wasn't going to win so he panicked and reneged on the agreement, this had nothing to do with readiness. Look at her today, she is still not significantly better than she was in The Fleur DL. Jackson ducked his way out of losing, that was all it was.

Zenyatta never had a layoff like Rachel where she was out of training. That is a huge difference, but you know that already.

[Kimsus]

Zenyatta never had a layoff like Rachel where she was out of training. That is a huge difference, but you know that already.

So, you are saying she is significantly better with 3 months of racing today? You and I know the answer to that, and to use your own words that you love to use so often on others, but you knew this already.

[cj]

So, you are saying she is significantly better with 3 months of racing today? You and I know the answer to that, and to use your own words that you love to use so often on others, but you knew this already.

I don't really get the question. Rachel obviously is significantly better in my opinion since she returned. I think Z is a little worse. Is that what you wanted?

[Kimsus]

I don't really get the question. Rachel obviously is significantly better in my opinion since she returned. I think Z is a little worse. Is that what you wanted?

Based on what? That race against 1xer's at Monmouth?

[andymays]

Zenyatta shows up early at Del Mar - SignOnSanDiego.com
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2010/aug/04/zenyatta-shows-early-del-mar/

Excerpt:

DEL MAR — In a surprise move, Zenyatta showed up this morning at Del Mar Racetrack and galloped one lap around the synthetic Polytrack.

Zenyatta, 17-0 and expected to go for 18-0 Saturday in the Clement L. Hirsch Stakes, handled the surface "very well" and had no problems with the track, according to Gene Williams of the Del Mar Thoroughbred Club.
“I spoke to Steve Willard (Zenyatta’s exercise rider), and he said she had no problems and handled it very well,” Williams said.

Zenyatta’s trainer, John Shirreffs, had said the super mare wasn’t going to arrive until later today after exercising at Hollywood Park. But she arrived here early and was sent out for some morning exercise.

[cj]

Based on what? That race against 1xer's at Monmouth?

No, the one before that. She ran fast and won easily, running faster at all calls than the older males did in the Foster later on the card. I'm not saying better than last year, I'm saying better than her early efforts this year when she clearly needed a few starts (as I predicted by the way).

[Kimsus]

No, the one before that. She ran fast and won easily, running faster at all calls than the older males did in the Foster later on the card. I'm not saying better than last year, I'm saying better than her early efforts this year when she clearly needed a few starts (as I predicted by the way).

She is not as fast as last year, that we can agree on. I noticed this right in her 1st race this year, she's lost her cruising speed and the million dollar question is will she get it back, I think she won't and that is why I don't think it matters whether the AB was in Apr or Aug, she's not the horse she was.

[OntheRail]

Interesting this coming from a backer of a horse that will finally make her debut in a gr.1 in late August of this year. There's plenty of ducking going on, care to expand your selective thinking...

Sure I learned the Kimsus method. :lol:

But seriously giving a months notice and at a distance that you claim is Zenyattas preferred one and they choose to say and run on a sufface they claim to hate... is a classic Webster's definition of Ducking. ;)

[cj]

She is not as fast as last year, that we can agree on. I noticed this right in her 1st race this year, she's lost her cruising speed and the million dollar question is will she get it back, I think she won't and that is why I don't think it matters whether the AB was in Apr or Aug, she's not the horse she was.

I didn't say that. I said she is not better than last year.

She clearly needed a few races, her win at CD was pretty darn good. It is leaps and bounds ahead of anything Zenyatta has done this year.

[Kimsus]

I didn't say that. I said she is not better than last year.

She clearly needed a few races, her win at CD was pretty darn good. It is leaps and bounds ahead of anything Zenyatta has done this year.

Better by you numbers...But is she better on the track CJ? I hope Jackson has the courage to run her in the classic this year, he has no viable excuse not to. I would love to think what you think or say then. If I am wrong I will be here, better-faster semantics? I don't get you. What did you exactly mean she is not better this year if it doesn't mean not faster?

[Kimsus]

Sure I learned the Kimsus method. :lol:

But seriously giving a months notice and at a distance that you claim is Zenyattas preferred one and they choose to say and run on a sufface they claim to hate... is a classic Webster's definition of Ducking. ;)

What did you think I said was Zenyatta's best distance? If I could make out your paragraph, maybe I would understand what you are trying to say.

[OntheRail]

What did you think I said was Zenyatta's best distance? If I could make out your paragraph, maybe I would understand what you are trying to say.

I realize the other post was a readers digest version... but should of been clear enough for even you. ;)



You and other have harped on and on about how 10f is Zenyatta's distance... (which I found funny as she only did it ONCE and on rubber). Also that Rachel could not get 10f at all. So Jackson announce the Personal Ensign as RA next start almost a month ahead of the race not 3 days as he's been accused of in the past by your likes. So what does Moss do... same ole' same ole' and will run her at Del Mar on a surface that they claim to hate and that Zenyatta is not as good on. :rolleyes:

Your hanging your hat on the BC... Me I don't think she (Zenyatta) makes it to the gate for the Classic.

[tucker6]

Your hanging your hat on the BC... Me I don't think she (Zenyatta) makes it to the gate for the Classic.
I agree. Why would a possible 19-0 Zenyatta ever be chanced to end her career by finishing up the track in her last race. That last race will always be the final say on Zenyatta no matter if she had been 59-0. No way Moss jeopardizes her record and legacy after three years of careful crafting of that record. Any other response makes no logical sense if you are Moss. Zenyatta at Del Mar further proves that Moss is thinking the same way.

They should set odds on Zenyatta even getting to the BCC gate let alone winning it.

What I'd like to know from the "Zenyatta is the greatest" crowd is for a logical explanation as to her 2010 campaign as compared to the statements being made by her connections coming into 2010.

[PaceAdvantage]

Because you consider that tempering irrational, Pace, I suppose I can infer the basic conclusions that, per your comments, a BC win for Zenyatta would both seal the envelope on a HOY campaign for 2010 as well as bump her straight to the top of your all-time list (given the back-to-back BC wins).I don't even know why I bother sometimes. I thought I typed out a reply where I stated that even with another BC Classic win, she would not be AT THE TOP of my all-time great list. That is just as absurd as saying she took advantage of a group of tired horses in the end, should she win another BCC.

[PaceAdvantage]

They did! They shipped to Oaklawn. The other so called better company did not show up! They can't help it if people are afraid to run against their horse. I think that people should be all over the various others connections for not shipping to California to defeat Zenyatta! Go take on the champion and beat her! It's that simple!First off, Zenyatta is not the reigning HOY, thus Zenyatta needs to come to the champ, not the other way around. I know it pains you to read that, but it's the cold hard truth.

Second, since big Z's connections were willing to ship to Oaklawn EVEN AFTER Rachel was scratched and AFTER the purse was reduced, why are they so unwilling now to ship to Saratoga and take on Rachel at 10 furlongs?

No die hard Zenyatta fan has yet to answer this question. I thought all you die hard Zenyatta fans say 10f is Zenyatta's best distance and Rachel's worst distance.

You guys should be ringing the phone off the hook, DEMANDING that Zenyatta go to Saratoga to HUMILIATE and put to rest ONCE AND FOR ALL this silly notion that Zenyatta is somehow inferior to the Horse of the Year.

You're telling me you'd rather see her race in the Clement Hirsch instead? As a a fan of the game that's what you'd rather see? :lol:

'Cause we know there is a snowball's chance in hell of Zenyatta wheeling right back in 22 days to run in the Personal Ensign...

[Cardus]

Based upon what I have seen this year, I'd think that Zenyatta's human connections would be eager to race her against Rachel Alexandra.

[tucker6]

Based upon what I have seen this year, I'd think that Zenyatta's human connections would be eager to race her against Rachel Alexandra.
I suspect Z is about to form a malady that may end her career before the BCC. These things happen. :rolleyes:

[born2ride]

If having an undefeated streak is so easy, then why have there not been many others who have acheived it using this very simple formula?

Nobody said being undefeated was easy, I certainly didn't. But the undefeated streak is not everything, and I think this is the point many are trying to make here, including myself. Being undefeated certainly doesn't mean you're a great horse, nor does it automatically qualify a horse as the being the best. It's about the level of competition in each race, throughout the season, and the career, as well as the performance within the race. On the other hand, if more horses ran every 55 days or so, faced competition on the surface that the horse excels on, I believe we'd have more undefeated horses as well as longer streaks. Thank god more trainers don't follow this very simple formula, races would be hard to fill and the horse transit industry could collapse from lack of business. ;)

[Kimsus]

Based upon what I have seen this year, I'd think that Zenyatta's human connections would be eager to race her against Rachel Alexandra.

They did but Rachel's connections didn't want to. Did you conveniently forget? Or were you not here with the rest of us earth dwellers?