Fans and how to garner them into the game

[46zilzal]

"This last Friday Dave (security guard) and myself befriended a young couple who were enjoying their first time at the races. They were screaming and hollering between the times they were asking LOGICAL rookie questions regarding the program, wagering and handicapping. The fellow had a video camera and was recording both of their reactions with the races running in the background. He asked politely to get a better perspective by coming into, the THEN EMPTY, winners circle and since it was the last race on the card, both of them excitedly entered.

As the race finished and all the connections came in, I saw that a friendly trainer had won the race.I explained to her that we had a first time couple here with us and asked if it would be okay for them to heighten their first experience by getting into the winning photo. She responded with a loud "Sure, the more the merrier!" They hopped up on the podium with the connections, smiled and the rider (a very nice fellow named Frank) shook their hands just as if they were part of the win.


As they left they were elated and said without prompting: "Wow this is great and we are going to bring some of our good friends next week!"

That is how you make fans."

[WinterTriangle]

Nice story. Like anything in life, a little kindness goes a long long way, and it was no skin off anyone's back to give this couple one very memorable day!.

[Stillriledup]

Racetrackers are always good like that. I remember many years ago when i was learning the game, me and a friend would know which owners weren't ever there at the track and when those horses won, we would just saunter to the winners circle like we owned the horse and no one ever said a word to us. I have tons of winners circle pictures, with me in them, on horses owned by owners we knew werent at the at the track. But, that was in a far better time in this country.

As far as getting new fans introduced to the game, i think the best way to get new people interested into this great sport is to have current fans bring them to the track and show them the ropes. Racetracks need to start treating the current customers like gold....that way, the current customers will be much more willing to introduce people they like and respect into this sport.

[kingfin66]

That was A+ plus customer service you guys gave. The problem is (a) this process needs to be repeated a couple million times at racetracks across North America and (b) these people may become fans, but will they become bettors? Fans are great, but horse racing needs gamblers.

I think the racing industry would be very wise to market with the same aggression as tribal casinos.

[classhandicapper]

There are a lot of different types of fans, but the one thing they all want is a pleasant experience. :ThmbUp:

[BELMONT 6-6-09]

This race track thing can be really frustrating as 90% of the people (novices), that I brought to the race track sincerely loved the experience. Let's face it the sport has everything a person needs for entertainment .

The problem is the cost of the gamble. When you total the admission, parking, programs, beverages and food the day costs can add up to a person on a limited entertainment budget. That's why it is astounding that there is an admission and parking fee for the races.The casinos do not charge an entrance fee for their gaming experience.

[thaskalos]

This race track thing can be really frustrating as 90% of the people (novices), that I brought to the race track sincerely loved the experience. Let's face it the sport has everything a person needs for entertainment .

The problem is the cost of the gamble. When you total the admission, parking, programs, beverages and food the day costs can add up to a person on a limited entertainment budget. That's why it is astounding that there is an admission and parking fee for the races.The casinos do not charge an entrance fee for their gaming experience. The casinos know that they are in the gambling business...whereas the racetracks still think that they provide entertainment...which should not be given away for free.

[ManeMediaMogul]

That was A+ plus customer service you guys gave. The problem is (a) this process needs to be repeated a couple million times at racetracks across North America and (b) these people may become fans, but will they become bettors? Fans are great, but horse racing needs gamblers.

I think the racing industry would be very wise to market with the same aggression as tribal casinos.

Horse racing needs fans.

The gambling will come later.

It takes a long time - a lifetime - to learn the nuances of handicapping. (Hence this forum.) But we can make a fan in a few minutes. (See the beginning of this thread.)

Teach people to love the sport. They will gamble in due time.

We all know how hard you have to work to win. Who is going to keep coming to the track if they are getting their pockets vacuumed by all you sharpies?

Give them an enjoyable day and they will return again and again.

Fans first. Gamblers second. That is the key.

[Robert Goren]

Anybody who thinks horse racing isn't all about gambling is wrong. They have horse shows for people who love to look at horses. They don't draw a lot people. Racing needs to get over itself and start promoting itself for what it is. It should market itself to adults. Get over this family stuff. Vegas tried that and it didn't work. It needs promote the idea that you can leave with more money than you came with. And it needs to make that easier to happen. Now days when a new person comes to the the track he bets a couple of bucks a race until he gets his feet wet. He has virtually no chance of over come the fixed costs of admission, parking, DRF, food, and drink. Even if he breaks even wagering, he is out a lot of money. If you want people on the track, that has to change. I also believe that every new horse race better makes his first bet at the track.

[beertapper]

Anybody who thinks horse racing isn't all about gambling is wrong. They have horse shows for people who love to look at horses. They don't draw a lot people. Racing needs to get over itself and start promoting itself for what it is. It should market itself to adults. Get over this family stuff. Vegas tried that and it didn't work. It needs promote the idea that you can leave with more money than you came with. And it needs to make that easier to happen. Now days when a new person comes to the the track he bets a couple of bucks a race until he gets his feet wet. He has virtually no chance of over come the fixed costs of admission, parking, DRF, food, and drink. Even if he breaks even wagering, he is out a lot of money. If you want people on the track, that has to change. I also believe that every new horse race better makes his first bet at the track.

yup, it's gambling, pure and simple.

here's another take at how someone could get into the game

http://blog.trackmaster.com/?p=2191

[5k-claim]

ManeMediaMogul,

I agree with you.

The game obviously needs to always strive to improve itself as a gambling venture for handicappers. There are people out there gambling on all sorts of things, and as long as our sport needs gamblers it needs to be competitive for their money.

But like you, I would stop short of having a psychological profile quiz drawn up that we can give to everyone on their first trip to the track to determine how likely they are to one day find themselves sitting in front of a computer betting on 10 different tracks every day. Yeah, we need those people- but the sport runs on all different kinds of characters. And owners. Not just persistent gamblers.

There are so many people drawn to the sport as a chance to work with horses hands-on, and/or be competitive in a horse sport. I know because I talk to them every day- about horses- with the subject of gambling rarely (if ever) even coming up. If people think the sport is bad now, I wouldn't want to see this "adult casino game" if it were to lose all of those horse lovers and horse fans who are presently working in it.

In the end, it is not a choice between the two. Purses make the sport go, but so do the characters up at 4:30 every morning. One thing that would be good for both the gamblers watching their bottom lines, and also repeating/strengthening the bonds with budding "fans" and families, would be free parking and admission. Always. Make it really easy for people to get in- and get hooked on something about the sport.

Just get a good grill going upwind of the crowd and you can get your $$$ back from the lost parking charges.

Horse racing needs fans.

The gambling will come later.

It takes a long time - a lifetime - to learn the nuances of handicapping. (Hence this forum.) But we can make a fan in a few minutes. (See the beginning of this thread.)

Teach people to love the sport. They will gamble in due time.

We all know how hard you have to work to win. Who is going to keep coming to the track if they are getting their pockets vacuumed by all you sharpies?

Give them an enjoyable day and they will return again and again.

Fans first. Gamblers second. That is the key.

.

[Robert Goren]

ManeMediaMogul,
Yeah, we need those people- but the sport runs on all different kinds of characters. And owners. Not just persistent gamblers. You have to kidding. Without the persistent gamblers, there is no sport. End of story. If racing doesn't fix the problem with their diminishing numbers you won't have to worry about owners. The sport needs gamblers. Gamblers do not need the sport.

[rwwupl]

Anybody who thinks horse racing isn't all about gambling is wrong. They have horse shows for people who love to look at horses. They don't draw a lot people. Racing needs to get over itself and start promoting itself for what it is. It should market itself to adults. Get over this family stuff. Vegas tried that and it didn't work. It needs promote the idea that you can leave with more money than you came with. And it needs to make that easier to happen. Now days when a new person comes to the the track he bets a couple of bucks a race until he gets his feet wet. He has virtually no chance of over come the fixed costs of admission, parking, DRF, food, and drink. Even if he breaks even wagering, he is out a lot of money. If you want people on the track, that has to change. I also believe that every new horse race better makes his first bet at the track.


It is about gambling and the competition among gamblers should be more of a marketing focus. Gambling customers provide the source of revenue for survival of the industry...so the industry needs to learn to treat them well.

Beertapper...The article you offered was very good, thanks.

http://blog.trackmaster.com/?p=2191

[Bruddah]

Horse racing needs fans.

The gambling will come later.

It takes a long time - a lifetime - to learn the nuances of handicapping. (Hence this forum.) But we can make a fan in a few minutes. (See the beginning of this thread.)

Teach people to love the sport. They will gamble in due time.

We all know how hard you have to work to win. Who is going to keep coming to the track if they are getting their pockets vacuumed by all you sharpies?

Give them an enjoyable day and they will return again and again.

Fans first. Gamblers second. That is the key.

The lady has it 100% correct! Get their butts in the bleachers and the gambling will follow.

[Otis11]

I witnessed a great way of getting new fans to the track this past Saturday. A couple of the regulars pitched in and bought a low level claimer a few months ago. Less then $5k was spent in total. Saturday was her first race. Each one of these guys brought a ton of family and friends. Most of them, it was their first time ever to a live race. Heard lots of, "We're coming back next week." I'm sure a few of them WILL return.

The tracks should be promoting ownership more. But then, heck, my local track doesn't promote ANYTHING.

:11:

[Robert Goren]

If somebody owns a race horse, he won't have enough money left over to bet after paying the bills.:rolleyes:

[5k-claim]

If somebody owns a race horse, he won't have enough money left over to bet after paying the bills.:rolleyes:

Hi Robert,

Now this is something that you and I can definitely agree on!

The sport is alluring to more than just one kind of sucker. This is why I think the tracks should all have free parking and admission at all times- so that people can easily come in for free as often as they want and eventually get suckered by whatever floats their boat: handicapping, wagering, horses, photography, ownership, training, girls on the ponies, whatever.... it all plays a part.


.

[kenwoodall2]

As long as racing is afraid of the public, there is no good answer.

[kenwoodall2]

As long as racing is afraid of the public, there is no good answer. Sort of like Negro League Baseball, dog racing, dog and cock fighting, Special Olympics- closed society, too many percieved negatives to going public!

[dav4463]

Anybody who thinks horse racing isn't all about gambling is wrong. They have horse shows for people who love to look at horses. They don't draw a lot people. Racing needs to get over itself and start promoting itself for what it is. It should market itself to adults. Get over this family stuff. Vegas tried that and it didn't work. It needs promote the idea that you can leave with more money than you came with. And it needs to make that easier to happen. Now days when a new person comes to the the track he bets a couple of bucks a race until he gets his feet wet. He has virtually no chance of over come the fixed costs of admission, parking, DRF, food, and drink. Even if he breaks even wagering, he is out a lot of money. If you want people on the track, that has to change. I also believe that every new horse race better makes his first bet at the track.


I completely agree. The track should be a somewhat "seedy" place. It should smell like beer and cigars. There should be slimy touts hanging out all over the place. It's gambling. It's not a day at the amusement park!

[thespaah]

Horse racing needs fans.

The gambling will come later.

It takes a long time - a lifetime - to learn the nuances of handicapping. (Hence this forum.) But we can make a fan in a few minutes. (See the beginning of this thread.)

Teach people to love the sport. They will gamble in due time.

We all know how hard you have to work to win. Who is going to keep coming to the track if they are getting their pockets vacuumed by all you sharpies?

Give them an enjoyable day and they will return again and again.

Fans first. Gamblers second. That is the key.
Spot on!!!!
I keep repeating myself when the issue of getting people to the track comes up.
My response is always the same. That is racetracks must find ways to get new fans to come through the doors. Marketing marketing marketing.
Racetrack management should hold themsleves out as a place to come out and have a good time. Offer them perks. For example a 10 dollar wagering voucher for their visit. If they use it, offer them another one good for their next visit. Offer them incentives to bring others with them the next time they visit. There are literally tons of inexpensive things racetracks can do to extend hospitality. Kindness spreads like wildfire.

[thespaah]

Anybody who thinks horse racing isn't all about gambling is wrong. They have horse shows for people who love to look at horses. They don't draw a lot people. Racing needs to get over itself and start promoting itself for what it is. It should market itself to adults. Get over this family stuff. Vegas tried that and it didn't work. It needs promote the idea that you can leave with more money than you came with. And it needs to make that easier to happen. Now days when a new person comes to the the track he bets a couple of bucks a race until he gets his feet wet. He has virtually no chance of over come the fixed costs of admission, parking, DRF, food, and drink. Even if he breaks even wagering, he is out a lot of money. If you want people on the track, that has to change. I also believe that every new horse race better makes his first bet at the track.
A rather cynical view, IMO.

[thespaah]

You have to kidding. Without the persistent gamblers, there is no sport. End of story. If racing doesn't fix the problem with their diminishing numbers you won't have to worry about owners. The sport needs gamblers. Gamblers do not need the sport.
Yes..The sport needs gamblers. But not ONLY gamblers.
I started out as just a fan. I learned how to handicap. when I go to the track I bet with both fists.
The point is, everyone has to start somewhere. If we take your tact, new people unwelcome, racetracks are doomed. Get it? Doomed.
Think what you wish. I am well aware that some hard core big bettors think newbs simply do not belong at the track. That's their problem.

[thespaah]

I completely agree. The track should be a somewhat "seedy" place. It should smell like beer and cigars. There should be slimy touts hanging out all over the place. It's gambling. It's not a day at the amusement park!
Brilliantly written in all of it's neanderthal grace.
Jeez.

[thaskalos]

Betting drives this game...not fan participation. Until the game becomes a better "gamble", the serious bettors will continue abandoning the game...and the mutuel numbers will continue their steep decline.

A track-full of "young couples" cannot make up for the loss of a hand-full of "serious" players...

[thespaah]

Betting drives this game...not fan participation. Until the game becomes a better "gamble", the serious bettors will continue abandoning the game...and the mutuel numbers will continue their steep decline.

A track-full of "young couples" cannot make up for the loss of a hand-full of "serious" players...
No kidding. That is not what I am saying.
The game needs big players and it needs new blood.
What's the average of a horseplayer these days? 50? 55?...As time passes, with those with your ideas( bettors only all others stay away)what happens in 20 years when the attendance is the hundreds instead of thousands? Empty racetrack grandstands( the ones that are still open)populated by a few hundred geriatrics( sorry grits but it is what it is)....This is the future without new fans.

[thaskalos]

No kidding. That is not what I am saying.
The game needs big players and it needs new blood.
What's the average of a horseplayer these days? 50? 55?...As time passes, with those with your ideas( bettors only all others stay away)what happens in 20 years when the attendance is the hundreds instead of thousands? Empty racetrack grandstands( the ones that are still open)populated by a few hundred geriatrics( sorry grits but it is what it is)....This is the future without new fans. I understand that the game needs new players...but it doesn't need YOUNG players. The young people have other, more important things to do with their time than to spend it handicapping and betting on horses. Once their careers and their family lives are in order...then they can gravitate to this game.

You make a big deal about the average horseplayer age being 50-55. Are you predicting a drastic decline in the 50-55 population for the years to come?

[duncan04]

I understand that the game needs new players...but it doesn't need YOUNG players. The young people have other, more important things to do with their time than to spend it handicapping and betting on horses. Once their careers and their family lives are in order...then they can gravitate to this game.

You make a big deal about the average horseplayer age being 50-55. Are you predicting a drastic decline in the 50-55 population for the years to come?

But if they don't start young, when they reach 50-55 they will be elsewhere. So in essence yeah they need young blood.

[kingfin66]

Horse racing needs fans.

The gambling will come later.

It takes a long time - a lifetime - to learn the nuances of handicapping. (Hence this forum.) But we can make a fan in a few minutes. (See the beginning of this thread.)

Teach people to love the sport. They will gamble in due time.

We all know how hard you have to work to win. Who is going to keep coming to the track if they are getting their pockets vacuumed by all you sharpies?

Give them an enjoyable day and they will return again and again.

Fans first. Gamblers second. That is the key.

Sorry, but I must respectfully disagree with you MMM (are you really a mogul?). Racing cannot survive with just fans. It is betting that drives the sport (either mutuel betting or slots) and it will always be that way. Fans come out to see Zenyatta run. Fans go to the BC and TC races, but these fans cannot ensure the future of the game.

The fans will always get their collective clocks cleaned by sharpies as that is more or less all that is left betting. It, along with the very high takeout, makes it near impossible for most of us to win, myself definitely included.

Horse racing is in direct competition with other forms of gambling and is losing in a dreadful manner. The instant gratification afforded by these other forms of gambling doesn't help racing either; people like the quick fix. Racing doesn't lend itself to that.

Racing is very comparable to boxing in that they are both "dying" sports. Oh sure, there may be the occasional big race, compelling story, or compelling fight, but the reality is that both are a mere shadow of what they were in the days of Ali and Secretariat, or even Tyson and Alysheba.

[Bruddah]

I am sorry but, there some completely naieve and dumb posts in this thread.

Those espousing only hard core gamblers need play, Why wouldn't you want young "dumb" money in the pools? Why wouldn't you want to create young fan which will spend years and thousands of dollars to get a basic understanding of the game. Especially how to bet properly?

Young fans don't cost the most experienced gambler a damn thing. They enhance the product and it's future immeasurably, in every way!

What a bunch of ridiculous maroons and total B.S. you all are dribbling out of your yaps.

[kingfin66]

Well, good morning to you too Bruddah. As one of those maroons who is posting naive and ignorant thoughts, I am speechless. It appears that you have pounded your fist on the table and said, "this is my opinion and that is how it will be!" Of course, you are entitled to that opinion.

Here is my thinking if you care, which you probably do not. Fans don't bet. I don't mean that they don't bet at all, but when you talk in terms of betting "real money," they do not. They are more likely to spend their money on parking, entry, a program and lots of food. They don't know how to bet and are unlikely to engage in the practices that all of us do to learn how to handicap and bet.

How about instead of taking shots at those you don't agree with, tell everybody why we are so dumb and moronic. Or is maroonic? :) Who are these young players - not fans - that are going to dump lots of dumb money into the pools?

[Bruddah]

You are correct on at least two points. You are definitely a maroon and I don't give crap what a maroon thinks.

[rwwupl]

Be careful, My nephew, Bo Maroon gets upset, and he will complain to his Dad Macaroon..and then.. :D

[Robert Goren]

I am all for getting young dumb gamblers to the track. It would not be that hard to do if race tracks really tried. The trick is getting them to come back. The first time they might come for the bobble head, but why they should come back the second time if they figure out that the bobble head cost them a 100 bucks. Horse racing survives on repeat business. When someone goes the first time, you need to get him to come back again and again. They are doing a lousy job of doing that. Lets face it the product stinks right now. We all know that.

[comet52]

Imagine if you were some young person thinking about going to a track and you stumbled onto this thread - a bunch of snarling, negative horseplayers griping about how they want your "dumb" money at their track. You wouldn't go within a hundred miles of a track!

You guys are priceless. Seriously.

[rastajenk]

No shit.

I've been considering starting a blasphemous thread titled: Gamblers - Biggest Threat to Horseracing? I've got plenty of examples to get things going, but I like it here and want to continue to make small contributions in relative anonymity. :cool:

But really...is membership in the community of racetrack bettors contingent upon waking up on the wrong side of the bed everyday? Sheesh.

[kingfin66]

Yuand youYou are correct on at least two points. You are definitely a maroon and I don't give crap what a maroon thinks.

And you are definitely an asshole. I don't care if you disagree with my point of view, but why be such a jerk about it?

[Bruddah]

I am all for getting young dumb gamblers to the track. It would not be that hard to do if race tracks really tried. The trick is getting them to come back. The first time they might come for the bobble head, but why they should come back the second time if they figure out that the bobble head cost them a 100 bucks. Horse racing survives on repeat business. When someone goes the first time, you need to get him to come back again and again. They are doing a lousy job of doing that. Lets face it the product stinks right now. We all know that.


One damn thing for sure, they can't be considered as "repeat" visitors to the track if you get them there the first time. :lol:

[Bruddah]

Yuand you

And you are definitely an asshole. I don't care if you disagree with my point of view, but why be such a jerk about it?

Because you and those of your ilk are negative maroon mentalities, which should be banned from the track and anything considered horse racing.

Otherwise continue breathing and remember to exhale every once in awhile, even though you are a life form sucking up too much oxygen on this planet.

To explain it further, in terms you might understand, it's because your stupidity is beyond comprehension and you've pissed me off.

[thaskalos]

This is not some new game that has to be introduced to people for the first time. The game has been around for over 100 years...and it was much more popular 50 years ago than it is now.

Everybody - young and old alike - knows what this game is about...it's just that the majority of them have decided that they don't want to play it any more.

If the industry wants more people to be interested in the game...they have to make the game more appealing from a betting standpoint. And more affordable.

The racetracks complain about the small crowds that they attract, but the idea of no parking and no admission fees has never occurred to them.

They complain that not enough money is being bet on the "live" product...why can't they print up the past performances of the "live" product, and give them away for FREE? How much can it cost...and won't they come out ahead in the end?

When times are tough...you can't have your cake - and eat it too.

[Bruddah]

This is not some new game that has to be introduced to people for the first time. The game has been around for over 100 years...and it was much more popular 50 years ago than it is now.

Everybody - young and old alike - knows what this game is about...it's just that the majority of them have decided that they don't want to play it any more.

If the industry wants more people to be interested in the game...they have to make the game more appealing from a betting standpoint. And more affordable.

The racetracks complain about the small crowds that they attract, but the idea of no parking and no admission fees has never occurred to them.

They complain that not enough money is being bet on the "live" product...why can't they print up the past performances of the "live" product, and give them away for FREE? How much can it cost...and won't they come out ahead in the end?

When times are tough...you can't have your cake - and eat it too.

More inane and insane points!

Yeah, like everyone is born with an encyclopedic understanding and comprehension of horse racing. No need to introduce people, born in the last 50 years, to the Sport of Kings. Hell, they all know what it's about. (maroon*maroon*maroon) and we wonder what's wrong with this sport when we have such fans.

[rastajenk]

I guess you've been denied exposure to Bugs Bunny all your life? :p

[TommyCh]

Gambling customers provide the source of revenue for survival of the industry...so the industry needs to learn to treat them well.


You mean like the State of Illinois AND the ADWs shutting me out from Saratoga and Del Mar? My enthusiasm for this game is bleeding out as we speak. I've withdrawn almost all of my funds and if it goes on much longer, I won't be back. This is a time and money investment. If they don't appreciate it...

[Bruddah]

Betting drives this game...not fan participation. Until the game becomes a better "gamble", the serious bettors will continue abandoning the game...and the mutuel numbers will continue their steep decline.

A track-full of "young couples" cannot make up for the loss of a hand-full of "serious" players...

Do you even have a clue as to what you are saying? Or, are you just sucking up oxygen to hear your yap open and shut?

Fan participation drives betting, which is the engine of this game. It starts with fan participation. How farouking dumb! You farouking maroon! Don't you think betting is fan participation?

[thaskalos]

More inane and insane points!

Yeah, like everyone is born with an encyclopedic understanding and comprehension of horse racing. No need to introduce people, born in the last 50 years, to the Sport of Kings. Hell, they all know what it's about. (maroon*maroon*maroon) and we wonder what's wrong with this sport when we have such fans.In Arlington Park...families and young couples were coming out in droves. Now the place is a ghost-town.

Families and young people are not interested in becoming bettors...and they cannot be relied upon to save this game.

Before recruiting new customers...the game has to make sure that it maintains the loyal customer base that it has now.

When the existing, betting customers get disgusted and leave...as many of them have been doing the last few years...the game, as we know it, will die.

And all that will be left will be the aggravating noise of the slot-machines.

[Greyfox]

Well done 46Zil in making that couple's experience a positive one.
People tend to repeat experiences that they find pleasurable, and avoid those that cause pain.
While betting is a major part of the income for tracks, it helps to have entertainment value as well.
Not every young couple coming to the track will become an aficionado of the game. Many couples take in the track experience to enjoy the ambience of the dining facillities that many tracks host.
Sure they make a few bets and have a good evening.
If only 1/20 of these first time visitors becomes ardent about the game, the entertainment hook will have worked.
Then perhaps that couple will introduct a few more to the game down the road.
Once again, well done 46Zil.:ThmbUp:

[thespaah]

I understand that the game needs new players...but it doesn't need YOUNG players. The young people have other, more important things to do with their time than to spend it handicapping and betting on horses. Once their careers and their family lives are in order...then they can gravitate to this game.

You make a big deal about the average horseplayer age being 50-55. Are you predicting a drastic decline in the 50-55 population for the years to come?
Ok. Nice try. Reaching one's 50th birthday deosn't mean they automatically start going to the track. New bettors have to be found and devloped. Then told that the racetrack is a place to go have fun. The tracks need to find ways to get them through the door then get them to come back.
If tracks don't finds new blood, attrition through aging will ensure tracks run out of those 50 and older.
What is it that you have against horse racing picking up new fans? Who cares who they are and who cares how they get there?
At this point, wiht the sport in such decline, track management should be happy anyone with a pulse is walking through the door.

[rwwupl]

You mean like the State of Illinois AND the ADWs shutting me out from Saratoga and Del Mar? My enthusiasm for this game is bleeding out as we speak. I've withdrawn almost all of my funds and if it goes on much longer, I won't be back. This is a time and money investment. If they don't appreciate it...


If you are a Horse Player,you know that things are up and down, and what is today,will not be the same tomorrow,every day ,every race is different. Learn to turn the page and do not let yesterdays' disappointments effect today.

Work to make things better,in your own way. Horse Racing is a great form of how to live a long time and be happy. ;)

[thespaah]

Sorry, but I must respectfully disagree with you MMM (are you really a mogul?). Racing cannot survive with just fans. It is betting that drives the sport (either mutuel betting or slots) and it will always be that way. Fans come out to see Zenyatta run. Fans go to the BC and TC races, but these fans cannot ensure the future of the game.

The fans will always get their collective clocks cleaned by sharpies as that is more or less all that is left betting. It, along with the very high takeout, makes it near impossible for most of us to win, myself definitely included.

Horse racing is in direct competition with other forms of gambling and is losing in a dreadful manner. The instant gratification afforded by these other forms of gambling doesn't help racing either; people like the quick fix. Racing doesn't lend itself to that.

Racing is very comparable to boxing in that they are both "dying" sports. Oh sure, there may be the occasional big race, compelling story, or compelling fight, but the reality is that both are a mere shadow of what they were in the days of Ali and Secretariat, or even Tyson and Alysheba.:bang:

Jesus Christ!!! No one is saying racing needs JUST FANS......The point is the sport needs new people to come ot the sport and replace the ones there and those new people have to bring other new people. Wanna know why? Because the exisitng crop of bettors is going to be DEAD in 20 years. So if no new fans who will become bettors are not found, guess what? No one to bet on the races means no one is funding the tracks and purses. Sport shuts down due to lack of interest. It's that simple....
Now stop it all of you( You ,goren and that other guy) Stop being a stick in the mud and just realize that you'll have to share your private playground with people who may not play the way you think they should.

[thespaah]

I am sorry but, there some completely naieve and dumb posts in this thread.

Those espousing only hard core gamblers need play, Why wouldn't you want young "dumb" money in the pools? Why wouldn't you want to create young fan which will spend years and thousands of dollars to get a basic understanding of the game. Especially how to bet properly?

Young fans don't cost the most experienced gambler a damn thing. They enhance the product and it's future immeasurably, in every way!

What a bunch of ridiculous maroons and total B.S. you all are dribbling out of your yaps.
Thank you !!!!!!!
I know what the angle here is. The old timer big players on here and those that side with them have an agenda. They could care less if the average on track attendance is 150 per day. Their agenda is single issue, TAKEOUT. They don't care about the racetrack or the needed people to grow a fan base. They figure that as long as they can sit at home and wager, the only thing that matters to them is takeout. That is why they keep using that as an argument. While lowering takeout( with which I agree 100%) would help immensely, it is not the only issue here.
Now watch the resulting flaming replies from those who will ignore that I agreed takeout should be lowered. Some of the hard core bettors of horse racing can be among the most cynical son of a bitches on planet earth.
These are the people who can walk back into their house after getting the morning paper and find something to complain about a sunny day.

[thespaah]

This is not some new game that has to be introduced to people for the first time. The game has been around for over 100 years...and it was much more popular 50 years ago than it is now.

Everybody - young and old alike - knows what this game is about...it's just that the majority of them have decided that they don't want to play it any more.

If the industry wants more people to be interested in the game...they have to make the game more appealing from a betting standpoint. And more affordable.

The racetracks complain about the small crowds that they attract, but the idea of no parking and no admission fees has never occurred to them.

They complain that not enough money is being bet on the "live" product...why can't they print up the past performances of the "live" product, and give them away for FREE? How much can it cost...and won't they come out ahead in the end?

When times are tough...you can't have your cake - and eat it too.
CORRECT on all points!!!

[rastajenk]

Except the part about free parking and admission. Many tracks have gone to free parking and admission.

And the "more affordable" betting part. Many tracks have adopted dimes and fifty cent pieces as basic wagering units.

And the part about everybody knowing what the game is all about.

Other than that, right on! :rolleyes:

[TommyCh]

If you are a Horse Player,you know that things are up and down, and what is today,will not be the same tomorrow,every day ,every race is different. Learn to turn the page and do not let yesterdays' disappointments effect today.

Work to make things better,in your own way. Horse Racing is a great form of how to live a long time and be happy. ;)

Great, positive thoughts. But am I going to miss the Saratoga meet this year? Otherwise, I have to go to an OTB where the machines are so old that they can't take or print out an accurate wager and then take 3.5% from every winning ticket. And little or no service. It's not easy for me to get to the track and, a lot of times, the OTB. Seems like I should find a bookie.

[Robert Goren]

Takeout is not much of an issue for long time big betters. They get rebates. It is an issue for small betters ( and first timers are small betters) whether they know it or not. How many losing trips to the track do you think they will make before they stop going? This idea of fleecing the one time sucker is what is killing race. Come on the new guy a chance. He might come back, but if he drops a hundred he won't.

[thaskalos]

Except the part about free parking and admission. Many tracks have gone to free parking and admission.

And the "more affordable" betting part. Many tracks have adopted dimes and fifty cent pieces as basic wagering units.

And the part about everybody knowing what the game is all about.

Other than that, right on! :rolleyes: These are the responses that I have a problem with.

When I say more "affordable", I mean that it shouldn't cost that much to play the game...as in a 17-31% take-out.

Is there any doubt in your mind that the game is no longer attractive from a betting standpoint?

How can you be concerned about recruiting "new" fans...without first finding out WHY your old fans have left the game?

If the industry doesn't address the problems responsible for the decline of the sport...how long do the "new" fans figure to stay around?

Since you appear to be such a smart guy...would you mind telling me why you think the horseracing fan has lost interest in the game?

[rastajenk]

When I say more "affordable", I mean that it shouldn't cost that much to play the game...as in a 17-31% take-out. According to whom? You? What's your experience with balancing mutuel handles with purse structures, plant maintenance, breeders' funds, testing, marketing (or what's left of it), etc? I believe that a lower take could lead to greater churn, and greater revenue, but I also know that pick 5's, 6's, 9's, pentafectas and big ticket stuff like that work against the churn, too. So, I don't pretend to know what an optimal level is. But I do know I've never passed on making a bet because of the take. Plenty of other reasons, but not that.
Is there any doubt in your mind that the game is no longer attractive from a betting standpoint? Short fields are less attractive, but I think that's a whole other issue than what this thread is about. But no, I don't agree that some kind of radical, detrimental change has occurred over the last 15-20 years that somehow makes betting on horses less fun, less satisfying, less whatever it is you use to define attractive.
How can you be concerned about recruiting "new" fans...without first finding out WHY your old fans have left the game? Gambling money has left the game; I'm not convinced the "fans" have gone with it. The sudden widespread expansion of casino gambling is Reason #1 why racing finds itself in its current position. In other words, most of those people filling grandstands a generation ago weren't really racing fans, they were gambling enthusiasts, and it was the only game in town. When other, more convenient ways to play became available, only the fans were left, and that's about where we are now.

Some states (Indiana, West Va) were quick to protect their tracks from the effects of gambling migration. Tracks in slower moving, or stagnant states, began to, what I call, manage to fail, in order to change the attitudes of pols and the populace, flailing about hoping they would get a state-sanctioned lifeline. A major consequence, intended, unintended, or otherwise, of managing to fail is that new attendees will not get the experience of live racing that attendees from the bygone era enjoyed. I have plenty of firsthand experience with new people coming to the track out of curiosity and finding it dirty, drab, empty, and pretty much unpleasant. No amount of takeout changes, odd-on winners, longshot bustouts, or any other kind of parimutuel activity is going to overcome that.
would you mind telling me why you think the horseracing fan has lost interest in the game? See above. I don't think racing fans have lost interest as much as casual racegoers have found plenty of other stuff to do. I don't have all the answers. I may not have any answers. I do think that HANA-type issues, and the situation described in the original post are almost completely different orbits. Moving the takeout or catering to the individuals that bet their lungs out every race every day doesn't have much to do creating new "fans" of the great sport of horseracing.

[tzipi]

Anybody who thinks horse racing isn't all about gambling is wrong. They have horse shows for people who love to look at horses. They don't draw a lot people. Racing needs to get over itself and start promoting itself for what it is. It should market itself to adults. Get over this family stuff. Vegas tried that and it didn't work. It needs promote the idea that you can leave with more money than you came with. And it needs to make that easier to happen. Now days when a new person comes to the the track he bets a couple of bucks a race until he gets his feet wet. He has virtually no chance of over come the fixed costs of admission, parking, DRF, food, and drink. Even if he breaks even wagering, he is out a lot of money. If you want people on the track, that has to change. I also believe that every new horse race better makes his first bet at the track.

Totally agree. Horse racing is a money sport for gamblers. I mean if you want to see horses run and show,there's plenty of horse shows who do a better job of showing off horses. Racing knows what it is. We just have to market it better.

[PaceAdvantage]

I was about to close this thread due to the hostilities of some, but it seems like it might be pulling itself out of the pit somewhat...we shall see...

[Lasix67]

I was listening to Sirrus Radio's show this morning At the track with Steve Byk. He had a gentleman, I forget his name, on this morning who had a great opinion on how the industry needed to get a business plan together and stick to it for at least 4 years. His comments where excellent and I would recommend anyone to go back to the archives once it is posted and listen to what he said.

[LRL Racing]

You find all kinds at the racetrack which is what makes it special. The rich, the poor, the young, the old, the families and the single person. The touts, the so called pros and the novice. My dad started taking me to the track when I was young and many of my most memorable and enjoyable experiences in life have come at the track. I wish there was an easy answer for the declining fan base as I truly believe it is a great sport as well as good and cheap entertainment for many while for others it is an opportunity to try and make an easy and quick score. It seems everything is changing in the world so it should be no surprise racing is experiencing difficulties and changes. Just hope we can turn it around and get attendance up. I agree the track should be a fun experience. What made everyone on this board start going to the track and betting?

[dav4463]

Brilliantly written in all of it's neanderthal grace.
Jeez.


Thanks!.....But don't you see a sort of charm in the old, seedy gambling places? Like Vegas when the mob owned it......How about the dirty old baseball parks that had charm instead of the new super-stadiums? I would rather see the Cowboys in the Cotton Bowl than JerryWorld! I like old Comiskey better than new Comiskey. Wrigley Field and Fenway Park are a dying breed. That is sad to me. Boston Garden isn't the same anymore. Sure, there is a parquet floor, but now they have air conditioning and luxury suites!

[dav4463]

Seriously, to get the new fans there has to be education. $1 beer night draws the college crowd, but if a guy/girl doesn't know the difference between a maiden race and a stakes race he/she won't appreciate the game.

The tracks need more people who teach handicapping on site. Help the new bettor. Some of them don't understand the game so they are reluctant to bet.

Invite people out for a free dinner and have a couple of handicappers evaluate today's races step by step before each race. Give them reasons to like or not like a horse. Then discuss the bets with them after the race and tackle the next one. Teach them the concept of value. Offer basic handicapping books or pamphlets for free. Maybe charge $10 admission for a free dinner and handicapping lessons. I think the novices would show up and it wouldn't hurt a few veterans to take a refresher course either. Invite guest handicappers ...they don't have to be big names....just invite some local guys. Just make sure they know what they are talking about.

Teach the new player WHY a horse won and they will not treat it like the lottery.

[thespaah]

Thanks!.....But don't you see a sort of charm in the old, seedy gambling places? Like Vegas when the mob owned it......How about the dirty old baseball parks that had charm instead of the new super-stadiums? I would rather see the Cowboys in the Cotton Bowl than JerryWorld! I like old Comiskey better than new Comiskey. Wrigley Field and Fenway Park are a dying breed. That is sad to me. Boston Garden isn't the same anymore. Sure, there is a parquet floor, but now they have air conditioning and luxury suites!
I am with you on the old ballpark thing.
I am going to Fenway for the first time next weekend. Wrigley is on my bucket list. Old Tiger Stadium was, but I couldn't get there before they tore it down.
Anyway, there is a maked difference between visiting a nostaligic ballpark and a racetrack with a few thousand malcontented cigar chomping potty mouths.
When then mayor of NY Rudy Guiliani cleaned up Times Square by gettibg rid of the burlesque show parlors, hookers, and drug addicts, he transformed a shithole into a plce with rising proterty values, Investors entered the picture and made TImes Aquare a safe place for New Yorkers and tourists alike.
Of course soem were furious. Columnist Jimmy Breslin was an outspoken critic of The New Times Square. He said "I miss the grit and grime. I liked the dirt"...

[Robert Goren]

If you spend massive amounts of money on advertising, you can get lots of people out to the track one time. It is not cost effective unless you can get them come back over and over again. We all know what we want, but we are coming back anyway unless they really screw us over. The question is how do you get the first timer to come back. He isn't hooked yet.

[RXB]

People can talk marketing and takeout and everything; the main problem is that the actual product is getting worse and worse. I don't follow the sport as closely as I used to, and the reason is simple: short fields of crappy horses. Unless they card a race for 5f-- then it's a full field of crappy horses.

Since absolutely nothing is being done to address the issue of loss of soundness and stamina in the thoroughbred, there's really no reason to believe that the decline of the sport will be stemmed.

I just looked through today's entries at several tracks, and considering that it's a Saturday in summer, the quality of the racing is incredibly weak. I'll be finding other things to do today instead.