Keeping actual physical racetracks alive--attendance

[WinterTriangle]

This is something that perplexes me and I've wanted to discuss.

With gambling becoming more of a "sit behind your computer" or simulcast activity ala Wall Street, which is fine, but a lot of people simply don't go to the track anymore.

So, we are constantly having conversations about crumbling infrastrcutures or (taken from another topic):

Treat customers as though they were valued guests instead of a tolerated necessary evil. Wagering vouchers. Perks for their subsequent visits. Overall, copy the playbook of casinos. Oh yeah, big bettors should get big perks. Treat the high rollers like honored guests. Keep them coming to the track

Then we talk about not wanting casinos at racetracks.

What I'm wondering is, if people don't actually GO to the track, then we really can't have these huge physical structures, buildiings and bathrooms and seats and such, looking like ghost-towns.

It's waste of real estate and infrastructure.

Mabye the reason racing "customers" aren't put first is because there are so few of them --- I mean, people have to be somewhere to get treated like honored guests. Catering to a population that is *tiny* isn't something practical.

My idea is that track facilities that don't have casinos may be practically lying dormant since everyone is betting with software and offshore and with AWDs. To keep racing alive you have to keep tracks where the horses are running alive. They can't be falling apart, and they can't be ghostowns.

Maybe they should just close some of them if they no longer have any physical attendance.

In Japan, they are packing huge stadium like buildings. But if betting behind a computer at home is what horse racing has become for some, then there really is no reason to have huge racetrack facilities, is there????? Why pay for building maintenance and landscaping and such? You can't pay for lights, A/C, heat, fast food employees, clerks, elevator people......if there are no actual human beings INSIDE your facility!

In those places, if there is no casino, and therefore, not enough actual foot-traffic on a regular basis, perhaps they should either close tem, , or have the actual horse track itself remain, but build other stuff around it, like the build gated communities, lakes and parks around golf courses. There could still be barns, and horses on the track to be broadcast on TV and to your computer screen, but you don't need *seats* for customers if there aren't any *customers* sitting in them?????????

Explain this to me and give feedback. It's not an opinion so much as a scenario that passes in my mind at times.

Personally, I don't think racing will ever experience any kind of "rebirth" until it is attended, in person, as a form of entertainment, where families can go for the day, just as they would go to a water park. In Japan, they have this. If we don't, then something needs to be done. Horseplayers who don't go to the track can't very well expect them to stay open, can they?

[thaskalos]

The racetracks owners found themselves in a very awkward situation.

Some of them - like the owner of Arlington Park - built glamorous racetracks, initially thinking that the people would flock to them. They failed to realize that the OTBs and the internet would turn these "palaces" into ghost towns.

Now that the inevitable has happened...they are lying to themselves by either thinking that the horseplayers will return, or that the state laws will take pity on them and permit slots and then full-scale casinos to be erected on the premises.

[Dave Schwartz]

Take a look at Horsemen's Park. Wonderful facility and good attendance WITHOUT LIVE RACING!

How do they do it? By marketing to their customer and giving them what they want.

What is that? Well, among other things, a really comfortable simulcast facility. One that is conducive to playing with a computer - lots of TVs.

If the tracks want people to come back - in the marketing biz they call this "recovering customers" - they're going to have to give them something for their trip to the track that makes it worth their while to travel.

A great way to do it would be to offer rebates that are only available if you were on track. Another thing they could do is offer rebates for specific races payable only after a specific race. For example, a special DD rebate that can only be redeemed after (say) the 5th race.

Another idea would be a "rolling rebate." Bet the 1st race and get a rebate before the 3rd. The 2nd race gets rebated before the 4th.

Another idea is to combine part of the rebate money into prizes payable to random players. I don't mean one big hit like a pick 6 but rather (say) 50 winners drawn after each race starting with the 3rd race. The total returned to each player that is drawn is directly proportionate to his percentage wagered relative to the other winners.

This kind of stuff accomplishes several things:
1. It keeps people at the track for the next draw.
2. It adds rebate money back into TODAY'S pools.
3. It gives people who go broke a chance to get money to play with in the next race.

[jamey1977]

Take a look at Horsemen's Park. Wonderful facility and good attendance WITHOUT LIVE RACING!

How do they do it? By marketing to their customer and giving them what they want.

What is that? Well, among other things, a really comfortable simulcast facility. One that is conducive to playing with a computer - lots of TVs.

If the tracks want people to come back - in the marketing biz they call this "recovering customers" - they're going to have to give them something for their trip to the track that makes it worth their while to travel.

A great way to do it would be to offer rebates that are only available if you were on track. Another thing they could do is offer rebates for specific races payable only after a specific race. For example, a special DD rebate that can only be redeemed after (say) the 5th race.

Another idea would be a "rolling rebate." Bet the 1st race and get a rebate before the 3rd. The 2nd race gets rebated before the 4th.

Another idea is to combine part of the rebate money into prizes payable to random players. I don't mean one big hit like a pick 6 but rather (say) 50 winners drawn after each race starting with the 3rd race. The total returned to each player that is drawn is directly proportionate to his percentage wagered relative to the other winners.

This kind of stuff accomplishes several things:
1. It keeps people at the track for the next draw.
2. It adds rebate money back into TODAY'S pools.
3. It gives people who go broke a chance to get money to play with in the next race.
Rebates only allowed for on-track customers. Brilliant. But if anyone has to show their I.D. many will balk at it. Brilliant ideas, benefits for on-track players only. And give out gifts every damn weekend. Binoculars, T-Shirts, Posters, Give them something. On- Track benefits only. Brilliant idea.

[Stillriledup]

The problem is that the racetracks cant survive without betting. The NFL gets packed stadiums because the product is so good that people will attend the games even though they don't have bets on the games. Our population is essentially saying, "i'll only go to the horseraces if there's a shot i can make some money betting".

Until the races can stand on their own without the need of the betting takeout to keep them afloat, they will always struggle with attendance.

[Robert Goren]

Here in Nebraska(home of Horseman's Park) most of the people who go the track/simulcasts are people who don't want bother with setting up an ADW account.

[trackrat59]

For me, look at my handle, I LOVE live racing. :jump: I grew up on the stuff. I think we have to think about three different groups of people.

First, you have the group that prefer to stay at home behind their computer. For the sake of clarity, let's call them the gamblers. They can sit at home, watch TVG or HRTV or watch races on their computer and place their bets. Most likely they are betting more than one track. They are happy doing this. Why go to a track when you can stay at home and bet any track you want to bet at any time in the comfort of your own home?

For the sake of clarity here, let's call the people who really want to be at a track watching live racing the attendees. These people gamble too but prefer to bet the one track that they are at for the day watching live racing.

The third group would be the simulcasters. No more explanation needed. This group is some place in the middle of the gamblers and the attendees. They are content in front of the TVs with the machines and tellers with other people around them. Plus, they can order food. Always a plus.

Deep down I'm an attendee. I love the experience of the track. You know, the ambiance. I want to see the horses and go to the paddock. I have horses and have been around them my whole life so being at the paddock is usually an advantage for me. Some times I can find the winner in the paddock but most often I can figure out a horse or two to throw out. I want to see the horses running and hear them running. I want to be able to get a track hotdog and put mustard on it. I want to smell the cigar smoke in the air outside. :cool: I want to people watch. I want to see the trainers reactions while in the paddock. I want to see who is talking to who. I want to use the ticket machines. I want to sit outside on a nice day and watch live racing. Yes, I'm gambling when I'm there. It's not just the gambling it's the track that complets the experience for me.

Here's an example just from yesterday. My racing buddy came over in the morning all depressed with two cups of coffee and woke me up at 7AM. :( He really wanted to go to Colonial Downs to see the VA Derby. We went last year for the first time. Too difficult of a drive but anyway he had a bad week so he did not mention going prior to Saturday morning. I said, how about I drive us to Delaware Park? I own the "track car". It's a Mini Cooper and that's now our track car. He used to have our track car. A black Caddy. Anyway he said no to Delaware Park. Too far to drive. So, here we are on a Saturday morning and he's depressed because he can't get to Colonial and doesn't feel like driving to Delaware Park because he's already miserable. No live racing for us today. Now, this is the REAL reason my racing buddy is miserable = no live racing for him on this day.

So, I've been telling him that he has to go with me to the Sports Palace at Pimlico one day. (trying to trick a die-hard attendee into being a simulcaster for the day) ;) I told him that the characters in that place are worth a visit. Also, they are nice enough there to charge you $5 to get in and then they hand you a $3 voucher for food. I talked him into it. I told him the TVs, tables, and chairs are much better there than at what he calls "The Hole", the Cracked Claw. So he went and I was able to cheer him up a bit and he appreciated the characters in the Sports Palace, my new pals. The best line I had all day to cheer him up was....As he was sitting in the Sports Palace with his head in his Brisnet sheets, I said, "wouldn't this place be a great venue for a wedding?" :lol: You have to have been to Pimlico's Sports Palace to appreciate the comment. I did get my buddy to laugh. On the way home he commented that "maybe we can go to CT tomorrow". I know that's going to get him started since now there is no place to sit at CT if you are an attendee and they don't do much for the attendee at CT and place all the attention on the casino people. That's going to get him depressed again. My buddy is a die-hard attendee.

Now think about this. We could have spent Saturday sitting around my TV and computer getting the job done as gamblers. Na, not us. We are die-hard attendees. I could talk my buddy into going to Pimlico because at least you can say that Pimlico is a track even though we were inside in front of a bunch of TVs being simulcasters for the day. I was able to put a 1/2 smile on my buddy's face but it just didn't do it for him really, sitting in the Sports Palace at Pimlico being a simulcaster.

The state of our game for the future seems to be fewer tracks but nice tracks, better quality horses with bigger purses, large handles, and nice simulcasting facilities. My buddy won't be particularly happy about all of this. I can't say I will either. It will one day be a treat to attend live racing because it will not be available locally all year long. Us attendees are in big trouble. I think the gamblers and simulcasters are going to be ok.

In the mean time while I'm writing this my buddy just called and it's 7:20AM. He tells me, "be at The Hole at 11:15AM. We're going to CT today. :faint:

[andymays]

This is for California:

Offer a 50% of takeout rebate on track only with a 25% takeout rebate at Satellite only.

There is no doubt in my mind that on track handle would go up by 4times at least.

Anyone who normally churns 5k or more a day would be foolish not to go to the live track or at least Satellite. There are quite a few people who churn 10k a day and it would certainly make sense to make the trip to the track and maybe stay the weekend.

ADW's would be opposed to this of course so that would create problems.

[castaway01]

The problem is that the racetracks cant survive without betting. The NFL gets packed stadiums because the product is so good that people will attend the games even though they don't have bets on the games. Our population is essentially saying, "i'll only go to the horseraces if there's a shot i can make some money betting".

Until the races can stand on their own without the need of the betting takeout to keep them afloat, they will always struggle with attendance.
Yeah, no one bets on NFL games.... :rolleyes:

[Robert Goren]

To get people to come to the track rather sit home betting on the Internet, the need offer people a good time at the track. It is a lot like eating out rather than eating at home. Getting new people to come to the track is whole different ball game and involves marketing and keeping them coming back involves Customer Service, both which are lacking at most race tracks.

[toddbowker]

Here in Nebraska(home of Horseman's Park) most of the people who go the track/simulcasts are people who don't want bother with setting up an ADW account.Well, considering it is illegal in Nebraska currently to have an ADW account by virtue of the State Supreme Court's ruling it unconstitutional in 2002, people pretty much have to go to the tracks there.

Horsemen's Park did get it right in essentially building a simulcast facility instead of a 'traditional racetrack'. It works great for their few days of live racing each year. I think many tracks could become much better facilities for customers if they razed their grandstands and built smaller and higher quality spaces geared to putting on the simulcast program. Operationally it would be much better to have a facility that handles your regular crowd and can be supplemented on a temporary basis for big event days. Wouldn't work for every track, but the vast majority of them would benefit.

Of course that does cost money, something many racetracks have very little of to spend right now.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

This is for California:

Offer a 50% of takeout rebate on track only with a 25% takeout rebate at Satellite only.

There is no doubt in my mind that on track handle would go up by 4times at least.

Anyone who normally churns 5k or more a day would be foolish not to go to the live track or at least Satellite. There are quite a few people who churn 10k a day and it would certainly make sense to make the trip to the track and maybe stay the weekend.

ADW's would be opposed to this of course so that would create problems.
Tracks are free to do whatever they want. If that will create more Horseplayers, I don't think any ADWs will oppose it. And it really doesn't matter if ADWs love something or hate something.
Tracks will never do this, because if they thought it was such a good idea they would reduce takeout 24/7 already.

[andymays]

Tracks are free to do whatever they want. If that will create more Horseplayers, I don't think any ADWs will oppose it. And it really doesn't matter if ADWs love something or hate something.
Tracks will never do this, because if they thought it was such a good idea they would reduce takeout 24/7 already.


Don't you think they might block the signal to other venues because of the slippery slope of reduced on track takeout (50% takeout rebate)?

What about the taxability of the 50% rebate?

[Robert Fischer]

Television broadcast might even increase attendance more than perks or casinos...

[comet52]

Look at tracks that do still draw and analyze what makes them tick. Apply that to other tracks. Right now, it's shorter meets and the expectation of better racing, along with social events and a party atmosphere. Del Mar, Saratoga have this. Monmouth has definitely had good attendance by improving the field size and shortening the meet.

Most of the ideas like takeout changes are stuff that hardcore gamblers want and won't change the attendance dynamics one iota, they have little or nothing to do with what brings the masses to an entertainment venue. Horseracing has to compete with other gambling now and has to offer something that the local casino doesn't. Or it has to incorporate the local casino into itself in the form of slot machines.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Don't you think they might block the signal to other venues because of the slippery slope of reduced on track takeout (50% takeout rebate)?

What about the taxability of the 50% rebate?
They would need to change the contracts to be able to block signals. I think your scenario is fantasyland stuff, so I won't go on other than to answer your other question: It is up to the recipient to claim rebates on their taxes whether it is a toaster or 50%.

[andymays]

Look at tracks that do still draw and analyze what makes them tick. Apply that to other tracks. Right now, it's shorter meets and the expectation of better racing, along with social events and a party atmosphere. Del Mar, Saratoga have this. Monmouth has definitely had good attendance by improving the field size and shortening the meet.

Most of the ideas like takeout changes are stuff that hardcore gamblers want and won't change the attendance dynamics one iota, they have little or nothing to do with what brings the masses to an entertainment venue.

It's not necessarily about attendance. It's about those in attendance having a large bankroll in their pocket.

My point about the 50% takeout rebate is to get big bettors back to the track in California. One guy with 10k in his pocket makes up for quite a few $2 bettors. When you have people with large bankrolls at the track it makes for a more exciting atmosphere. It seems to me that in California with a 50% takeout rebate many would drive up to three hours or for a weekend to take advantage of the 50% takeout rebate.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Look at tracks that do still draw and analyze what makes them tick. Apply that to other tracks. Right now, it's shorter meets and the expectation of better racing, along with social events and a party atmosphere. Del Mar, Saratoga have this. Monmouth has definitely had good attendance by improving the field size and shortening the meet.

Most of the ideas like takeout changes are stuff that hardcore gamblers want and won't change the attendance dynamics one iota, they have little or nothing to do with what brings the masses to an entertainment venue. Horseracing has to compete with other gambling now and has to offer something that the local casino doesn't. Or it has to incorporate the local casino into itself in the form of slot machines.
Lower takeout causes players to last longer, leave with more cash, and these gamblers are more apt to come back faster and spend more time handicapping....whether they know what takeout is or not.

The venues that do well attendance wise don't have alternative forms of gambling within spitting distance for the most part.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

[/B]

It's not necessarily about attendance. It's about those in attendance having a large bankroll in their pocket.

My point about the 50% takeout rebate is to get big bettors back to the track in California. One guy with 10k in his pocket makes up for quite a few $2 bettors. When you have people with large bankrolls at the track it makes for a more exciting atmosphere. It seems to me that in California with a 50% takeout rebate many would drive up to three hours or for a weekend to take advantage of the 50% takeout rebate.
What is the point of luring big bettors to the track? They are already big bettors, why does the track need them to come to the track?

[andymays]

What is the point of luring big bettors to the track? They are already big bettors, why does the track need them to come to the track?

Don't the tracks make more with on track handle in California?

[Trotman]

Dave you hit it right on the button, build it and they will come. To add to your great idea's lower the prices on food and beverages and the track gets added revenue. If most racetrack management worked for me they would be out on their butt. :bang:

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Don't the tracks make more with on track handle in California?
Not if they have to give away 50% rebates they won't.

[andymays]

Not if they have to give away 50% rebates they won't.

My point is that if they do that on track handle will skyrocket. If on track handle goes up by 5 times what would happen?

[Horseplayersbet.com]

My point is that if they do that on track handle will skyrocket. If on track handle goes up by 5 times what would happen?
This is just silliness. Big bettors are already getting big rebates. The tracks in order to lure them would pretty much have to give them what they are getting already.
The smaller bettors will have handle increase, but not five times on half the takeout (which is what a 50% rebate means). Handle would go up two to three times, and it would take time, not overnight. And of the smaller bettors, they won't drive more than 50 miles to take advantage of something like this.

[andymays]

This is just silliness. Big bettors are already getting big rebates. The tracks in order to lure them would pretty much have to give them what they are getting already.
The smaller bettors will have handle increase, but not five times on half the takeout (which is what a 50% rebate means). Handle would go up two to three times, and it would take time, not overnight. And of the smaller bettors, they won't drive more than 50 miles to take advantage of something like this.

Is that true in California or not?

I'm pretty sure if Santa Anita promoted the 50% takeout rebate they would get quite a few people going up (or down) for the weekend.

Do you want lower takeout or not?

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Is that true in California or not?

I'm pretty sure if Santa Anita promoted the 50% takeout rebate they would get quite a few people going up (or down) for the weekend.

Do you want lower takeout or not?
Of course I want a lower takeout. But the way you propose it is fantasyland stuff.
California is a problem in itself when it comes to rebates for California residents, and they aren't truly competing with horseplayers getting rebates for live players.
A reduction in takeout for California horseplayers at California tracks would definitely increase handle in a big way, both for the tracks and those who bet through ADWs, but doing it one day is beyond silly.

[andymays]

Of course I want a lower takeout. But the way you propose it is fantasyland stuff.
California is a problem in itself when it comes to rebates for California residents, and they aren't truly competing with horseplayers getting rebates for live players.
A reduction in takeout for California horseplayers at California tracks would definitely increase handle in a big way, both for the tracks and those who bet through ADWs, but doing it one day is beyond silly.
Who said that it would only be for one day? It would be everday!

[thespaah]

This is something that perplexes me and I've wanted to discuss.

With gambling becoming more of a "sit behind your computer" or simulcast activity ala Wall Street, which is fine, but a lot of people simply don't go to the track anymore.

So, we are constantly having conversations about crumbling infrastrcutures or (taken from another topic):



Then we talk about not wanting casinos at racetracks.

What I'm wondering is, if people don't actually GO to the track, then we really can't have these huge physical structures, buildiings and bathrooms and seats and such, looking like ghost-towns.

It's waste of real estate and infrastructure.

Mabye the reason racing "customers" aren't put first is because there are so few of them --- I mean, people have to be somewhere to get treated like honored guests. Catering to a population that is *tiny* isn't something practical.

My idea is that track facilities that don't have casinos may be practically lying dormant since everyone is betting with software and offshore and with AWDs. To keep racing alive you have to keep tracks where the horses are running alive. They can't be falling apart, and they can't be ghostowns.

Maybe they should just close some of them if they no longer have any physical attendance.

In Japan, they are packing huge stadium like buildings. But if betting behind a computer at home is what horse racing has become for some, then there really is no reason to have huge racetrack facilities, is there????? Why pay for building maintenance and landscaping and such? You can't pay for lights, A/C, heat, fast food employees, clerks, elevator people......if there are no actual human beings INSIDE your facility!

In those places, if there is no casino, and therefore, not enough actual foot-traffic on a regular basis, perhaps they should either close tem, , or have the actual horse track itself remain, but build other stuff around it, like the build gated communities, lakes and parks around golf courses. There could still be barns, and horses on the track to be broadcast on TV and to your computer screen, but you don't need *seats* for customers if there aren't any *customers* sitting in them?????????

Explain this to me and give feedback. It's not an opinion so much as a scenario that passes in my mind at times.

Personally, I don't think racing will ever experience any kind of "rebirth" until it is attended, in person, as a form of entertainment, where families can go for the day, just as they would go to a water park. In Japan, they have this. If we don't, then something needs to be done. Horseplayers who don't go to the track can't very well expect them to stay open, can they?
This is the chicken/egg argument.
As we know, many of the existing facilities were built in the 70's and before.
They were built to accomodate the large number of attendees for the day.

There are so few attendees because racetracks rested on the idea that "if we build it, they will come"...And that was that. Tracks mgments forgot that even though people came, they still had to find ways to improve the experience.
I maintain the reason why so few go to the track today is BECAUSE track managements refused to react to changes in the marketplace.
Surely the powers that be saw the same on track attendance declines I did as far back as the late 80's....They should have started doing something about the phenomenon THEN.
It's sort of the sick tree thing.. It takes 100 or more years to grow a tree. it takes 2 minutes to cut it down and them another 100 years to grow one to replace it. Racetrack mgments have failed to treat the sick tree. So now they must rebuild their business from scratch. How long that will take is another matter.
The bottom line here is track people neglected to see the painfully obvious.
Question is, do the track mgments have the desire to get the people back.
IMO they had better or there are a lot of people who are going to be looking for new careers.

[rastajenk]

The bottom line here is track people neglected to see the painfully obvious.
They should have foreseen the effects of an internet that didn't even exist?

Or they should have resisted the expansion of simulcasting?

Apparently I'm dense. What is the painfully obvious?

[thespaah]

What is the point of luring big bettors to the track? They are already big bettors, why does the track need them to come to the track? SImple, they will spend money while there.
Ok....Let's say one can bet casino style on line...They can also get the same action at the facility. The differnce is the on-line player gets to wager. The in site player gets an experience. He is offered perks like free drinks, food, meals, etc.
The tracks need to cater to high rollers by giving them perks for showing up.
Perks also can go a long way to attracting new people as well.
Offer them a place to go and have a good time and offer incentives to get them through the door and incentives to keep them there for a few hours. Then offer them incentives to come back.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

SImple, they will spend money while there.
Ok....Let's say one can bet casino style on line...They can also get the same action at the facility. The differnce is the on-line player gets to wager. The in site player gets an experience. He is offered perks like free drinks, food, meals, etc.
The tracks need to cater to high rollers by giving them perks for showing up.
Perks also can go a long way to attracting new people as well.
Offer them a place to go and have a good time and offer incentives to get them through the door and incentives to keep them there for a few hours. Then offer them incentives to come back.
Most big players I know bet a lot less when they go to a track live, because of distractions.
That and the fact that you don't want these people shut out ever, the cost to cater to them far outweighs luring them to the track.

[chickenhead]

just from a pure "have more people in the stands" point of view, ignoring anything else (including whether its really overall beneficial or doable) -- in no particular order:


1.) Relatively short meets have more of an "event" quality to them than near year round meets. It makes people notice, advertising is easier, etc.

2.) Less weekday racing, primarily Friday Night, Saturday, Sunday.

3.) Markets without every sort of major sports franchise should be easier to draw to than markets with NBA AND NFL AND MLB AND NHL AND Soccer, etc.

4.) Shorten the time between races to as low as theoretically possible.

5.) Find better ways to really push creation of fractional ownership on track, perhaps even as giveaways. It's a unique advantage that horse racing has, and one known iron clad reason that will cause people to talk horseracing and bring their friends and family to the track.

6.) Make grandstands smaller at most places, you don't need seating for 50K.
Make the remaining more comfortable, i.e. First Class vs. Coach.

7.) Normal food franchises, Starbucks, Subway, Five Guys Burgers, etc.

[Jeff P]

This is for California:

Offer a 50% of takeout rebate on track only with a 25% takeout rebate at Satellite only.

There is no doubt in my mind that on track handle would go up by 4times at least.

Anyone who normally churns 5k or more a day would be foolish not to go to the live track or at least Satellite. There are quite a few people who churn 10k a day and it would certainly make sense to make the trip to the track and maybe stay the weekend.

ADW's would be opposed to this of course so that would create problems.
Andy, that's a good idea. But it's only the first step.

The one thing standing in the way of this being a success (at least in California) is a state law (we can thank the TOC and a handful of track operators) limiting the number of out of state races that can be simulcast each day.

For the serious player, playing on track in California means wagering opportunities each day become severely limited compared to playing elsewhere. All too often races the player wants to bet aren't available on track.

Now if California tracks went after a change in state law so they could offer competitive pricing on track AND full card simulcasting:

THEN they at least put themselves in position to earn back the business of players they have been alienating for years.


-jp

.

[andymays]

Andy, that's a good idea. But it's only the first step.

The one thing standing in the way of this being a success (at least in California) is a state law (we can thank the TOC and a handful of track operators) limiting the number of out of state races that can be simulcast each day.

For the serious player, playing on track in California means wagering opportunities each day become severely limited compared to playing elsewhere. All too often races the player wants to bet aren't available on track.

Now if California tracks went after a change in state law so they could offer competitive pricing on track AND full card simulcasting:

THEN they at least put themselves in position to earn back the business of players they have been alienating for years.


-jp

.


These laws and rules made up by people with short term interests and big egos need to be called out and hammered until things are changed.

You can put pressure on them through phone calls, emails, guest spots on several radio shows. There are more and more people talking about this stuff and we are close to seeing a change.

[Stillriledup]

Andy, that's a good idea. But it's only the first step.

The one thing standing in the way of this being a success (at least in California) is a state law (we can thank the TOC and a handful of track operators) limiting the number of out of state races that can be simulcast each day.

For the serious player, playing on track in California means wagering opportunities each day become severely limited compared to playing elsewhere. All too often races the player wants to bet aren't available on track.

Now if California tracks went after a change in state law so they could offer competitive pricing on track AND full card simulcasting:

THEN they at least put themselves in position to earn back the business of players they have been alienating for years.


-jp

.


Calif has no idea how much money they've cost themselves by not having full card simo. When they do eventually get full card in Calif, they'll say "gulp, what were were thinking"

[Stillriledup]

Yeah, no one bets on NFL games.... :rolleyes:


You didnt' read what i said carefully.

[thespaah]

Most big players I know bet a lot less when they go to a track live, because of distractions.
That and the fact that you don't want these people shut out ever, the cost to cater to them far outweighs luring them to the track.
Please explain how it is that this very method, offering pewrks to high rollers. works in casinos?
Let's forget for a moment that you may be partial to stay at home on line players.

[thespaah]

Most big players I know bet a lot less when they go to a track live, because of distractions.
That and the fact that you don't want these people shut out ever, the cost to cater to them far outweighs luring them to the track.
What distractions? To my knowledge most big players have higher levels of concentration and do not use areas of tracks that are open to the general public.
Look, the way I see it is someone heads to the track with a significant bankroll with the single minded mission of ROI, they are not going to hang out on the outdoor apron surrounded by spit swapping teenaged couples and hordes of kids running around throwing gum at each other.

[karlskorner]

As I left CRC this evening I was happy to see parking lots that haven't been used since the late 70's nearly filled up.
This has been going on weekends for the past couple months. No question the new casinio has alot to do with it, but the Grandstand was alive with players.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Please explain how it is that this very method, offering pewrks to high rollers. works in casinos?
Let's forget for a moment that you may be partial to stay at home on line players.
We are talking two different animals here. A casino high roller can come and go as they please, while the big horse racing bettor is tied into event times. Focus is very important and many big Horseplayers rely on computer programs to determine bets. It makes little sense for them to change and bet at the windows, especially if they are value players.



Also, the motivation for one casino to get a high roller is much different than a track getting one. A casino is competing with other casinos, while the track is just competing with an ADW most likely, and for many reasons, the ADW will win out (travel, convenience of betting on the internet, especially if bets are computer generated and dependent on odds).

[WinterTriangle]

Andy, that's a good idea.
.

It's a good idea to offer a 50% rebate?

How many people in business offer that to their customers? What kinds of % discounts are you offering your real "good" customers in YOUR business?

Just asking, as if you think it's a good idea for You as a Customer, you would have to think it's a good idea for your Customer as You running a business.

Increasing track handle at the risk of going bankrupt isn't a good idea.

[CincyHorseplayer]

This is something that perplexes me and I've wanted to discuss.

With gambling becoming more of a "sit behind your computer" or simulcast activity ala Wall Street, which is fine, but a lot of people simply don't go to the track anymore.

So, we are constantly having conversations about crumbling infrastrcutures or (taken from another topic):



Then we talk about not wanting casinos at racetracks.

What I'm wondering is, if people don't actually GO to the track, then we really can't have these huge physical structures, buildiings and bathrooms and seats and such, looking like ghost-towns.

It's waste of real estate and infrastructure.

Mabye the reason racing "customers" aren't put first is because there are so few of them --- I mean, people have to be somewhere to get treated like honored guests. Catering to a population that is *tiny* isn't something practical.

My idea is that track facilities that don't have casinos may be practically lying dormant since everyone is betting with software and offshore and with AWDs. To keep racing alive you have to keep tracks where the horses are running alive. They can't be falling apart, and they can't be ghostowns.

Maybe they should just close some of them if they no longer have any physical attendance.

In Japan, they are packing huge stadium like buildings. But if betting behind a computer at home is what horse racing has become for some, then there really is no reason to have huge racetrack facilities, is there????? Why pay for building maintenance and landscaping and such? You can't pay for lights, A/C, heat, fast food employees, clerks, elevator people......if there are no actual human beings INSIDE your facility!

In those places, if there is no casino, and therefore, not enough actual foot-traffic on a regular basis, perhaps they should either close tem, , or have the actual horse track itself remain, but build other stuff around it, like the build gated communities, lakes and parks around golf courses. There could still be barns, and horses on the track to be broadcast on TV and to your computer screen, but you don't need *seats* for customers if there aren't any *customers* sitting in them?????????

Explain this to me and give feedback. It's not an opinion so much as a scenario that passes in my mind at times.

Personally, I don't think racing will ever experience any kind of "rebirth" until it is attended, in person, as a form of entertainment, where families can go for the day, just as they would go to a water park. In Japan, they have this. If we don't, then something needs to be done. Horseplayers who don't go to the track can't very well expect them to stay open, can they?



I don't quite get it myself.

I mean I didn't get into racing til 1996.But being there is 10 months of live racing here in the Cincinnati tristate I cannot imagine being offtrack unless it is snowing or as has been the recent case,I'm being run the hell out of certain places at the track,where mind ya,are the best vantage points for someone with a pair of binoculars and is actually interested in watching races instead of drinking beer.

But I was at the track today,soaking up the sun,talking to all the familiar faces,looking at some horseflesh and some womanflesh,BS'in about the races beyond the "Who do ya like" routine and it's great.I got involved in one of the best conversations about a race and the turf condition and breeding and pace setup ever.The bunch of us drove a 11-1 shot down to 7-2 but we all whooped and hollered when she won by 10+ lengths.The collective consciousness and a few laughs to boot=awesome!!

And more importantly irreplaceable.I like to be able to talk to trainers and jockeys at times too.And they love to rap about it also.I like to see horses up close at 2 years old and see a 1-2 shot that looks like Sugar Ray Leonard vs an Ali and bet against it when it has credentials.I like to bounce ideas off of other handicappers and point out biases in the day.I don't see it as myself vs the world,a Wizard of Oz behind the computer.It's cool to share insight,winning,and enjoy the experience.Today in the summer sun was a blast with like minds!!

I love when September comes when I can watch from home if I want.But there is nothing greater than hanging with those of your own ilk.And it doesn't have to be at the temple of Saratoga etc etc.Although I hope I can meet up with you all in August.

But WT,the way they run things.Not wanting to hire $10hr workers to maintain a place on certain weekday racedays,basically shutting down parts of the facility.It is weak.They cry for their slot machines,yet don't cater to who actually shows up.They may as well tear em down and just have a picnic ground there with betting machines.It's pathetic to the highest degree.

[Jeff P]

It's a good idea to offer a 50% rebate?

How many people in business offer that to their customers? What kinds of % discounts are you offering your real "good" customers in YOUR business?

Just asking, as if you think it's a good idea for You as a Customer, you would have to think it's a good idea for your Customer as You running a business.

Increasing track handle at the risk of going bankrupt isn't a good idea.
Before I answer your specific questions (and I will) I want to try to preface the state of racing as a going concern... First in my own words:

If you take all sources handle as it existed 7 years ago in 2003 and adjust it for inflation - and then compare it to all sources handle as it exists today in 2010 - you will find that handle in 2010 is approximately HALF of what it was just 7 years ago in 2003.

Perhaps this gentleman said it better than I possibly can... Here's a quote from Lamboguy as posted in another thread: ...i am buying horses this year for about $7500 each that would have cost $75,000 3 years ago. only difference is that 3 years ago the world would be beating down my doors to buy the horses. today nobody is interested, so i run them and then sell them if they turn out good for less money than what people would have paid for on a guess 3 years ago. that is the reality of the business, lack of interest. keep going on and on with unexplained results, bad tests, and after the bell bettors and see what you have left 2 years from now. there will be lots more ghost towns in racetracks througout america. racing loves to bame the economy instead of blaming themselves. its the easy way out like they have taken the last 30 years. the game has offered the least amount of effort as a whole to maintain itself. its like a leaky roof, you can only patch the baby for so long and then it collapses on your head.

Simply put:

Racing is in serious trouble. The status quo isn't working. If we keep to the status quo for another 7 years, I'll make the argument that we can expect handle in 2017 to be HALF of what it is today... Let me put that another way: Handle in 2017 will be ONE QUARTER of what it was in 2003.

Last fall, we at HANA commissioned statistician Dan Needham to prepare a 50 question comprehensive survey which we asked our then 1300 horseplayer members to take. Needham designed the survey in such a way that answers could be correlated against each other to determine statistical relevance. The survey was comprehensive in nature and took nearly 30 minutes to complete. 510 HANA members took the time to complete the survey in full.

When we started to tabulate the results, it became obvious to us that this survey was significant because it represented true market research targeted at racing's core customer base.

The results were eye opening even to us. The results told us very clearly what factors drive horseplayers to bet more and what factors drive horseplayers to bet less.

The three most important factors driving horseplayer betting behavior (handle) are:

1. Takeout - It's too high relative to other forms of gambling with which racing must compete. The degree to which it is too high relative to other forms of gambling has created a public that no longer sees racing as an attractive gamlbing game. The result has been declines in handle as racing loses its customer base to the other forms of gambling that racing competes with.

2. Pool Integrity - Odds that change after the bell are no longer acceptable in this day and age. There is enough public distrust of the tote system that handle is being negatively impacted.

3. Drug Integrity - Horse racing is a gambling game. All gambling games need to be regulated in such a way that the integrity of the game is beyond reproach. Because of drugs - specifically the lack of enforcement - There is enough public distrust about the honesty of the game that handle is being severely negatively impacted.


SWEEPING changes are needed in order to turn things around.

Every time I sit down with racing decision makers: track management, horsemen, racing commissioners, or lawmakers to talk about changes that are needed to turn racing around - the last thing they want to do is ACT to address high takeout, pool integrity, or drug integrity in any meaningful way.

I view it as simple economics. Until or unless each of the above three issues are addressed in a meaningful way, handle will continue its downward spiral.

To be continued...

-jp

.

[comet52]

the last thing they want to do is ACT to address high takeout, pool integrity, or drug integrity in any meaningful way.

Then it should die out. We don't need horse racing socialism in the form of state subsidies to "create jobs". Tax me to keep Joe Horseman in business? No thanks. Slots are fine with me even though others object. If the industry can prop itself up that way, good for them.

What is "pool integrity"? Are you saying there is past-posting going on? Because a tote system that has to process bets/cancels coming from all over the nation, many at the last minute, over wide area networks that simply aren't instantaneous at all times, on systems that may be antiquated, isn't going to deliver a final price at post time, unless you cut off the system earlier.

And that won't change the fact that odds you bet at cutoff time, whatever it may be, won't be final odds, unless you develop a nationwide instant tote system with infallible communications networks and software, etc.

I don't see how a slow processing system constitutes a question of "integrity." If you have proof of cheating then integrity is a question.

[Jeff P]

It's a good idea to offer a 50% rebate?

How many people in business offer that to their customers? What kinds of % discounts are you offering your real "good" customers in YOUR business?

Just asking, as if you think it's a good idea for You as a Customer, you would have to think it's a good idea for your Customer as You running a business.

Increasing track handle at the risk of going bankrupt isn't a good idea.

I'll try answering your specific questions one at a time:

You asked:
It's a good idea to offer a 50% rebate?

My reply:
A 50% rebate? No.

A 50% on track takeout reduction?

Absolutely and without question: Yes.

The racing product is drastically overpriced. A 50% takeout reduction for on track patrons sends the right message to the customer AND to horsemen.

First, it gives the customer an incentive to play on track again. Where do horsemen get the most bang for the customer dollar purse-wise? Wagers made on track.


You asked:
How many people in business offer that to their customers?

My reply:
Lots of businesses offer pricing discounts. Why? Because it works.

Even racing offers volume discounts in the form of rebates. And it works too.

If you think a 50% takeout reduction is too much, consider this: Currently, most players can find equal or better takeout reductions online in the form of rebates. Example: Trifecta takeout at Penn National is 31%. (IMHO, that's borderline criminal.)

Even at modest handle levels, most players who take the time to seek out rebates can expect to find rebates on a trifecta at that track in the 15-20% range.

My answer is that racing is already offering significant discounts to the price sensitive player. Why not offer the same kind of discount on track?



You asked:
What kinds of % discounts are you offering your real "good" customers in YOUR business?

My reply:
Funny you should ask that.

My "good" customers get to pick my brain in a great many areas. If my "good" customers give me a good idea, they can expect to find their good idea added to the JCapper program for FREE.

But as long as we're talking about discounted pricing...

I'm in the process of reshaping JCapper and emphasizing a completely different revenue model.

Instead of emphasizing JCapper Platinum, a high end software program that retails for $695.00, as of 8/1/2010 the emphasis will shift to JCapper Silver, a program with the following catch phase: Genuine JCapper Software at an Affordable Price.

JCapper Silver Product Description:
http://www.jcapper.com/JCapperSilverProductDescr.asp

JCapper Silver Pre Launch Announcement:
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=72172

As I type out this post, JCapper Silver hasn't even been released yet. But in the past 7-10 days I've started to receive checks in the mail from customers who are pre ordering it. I can honestly say that the revenue from JCapper Silver pre orders over the past 7-10 days has surpassed expectations. Based on what I've seen so far, it's a safe bet that the day will soon come when JCapper Silver revenue far outstrips revenue from sales of JCapper Platinum.


-jp

.

[andymays]

Jeff, how can you do a 50% takeout reduction on track only. You would have to have two separate pools wouldn't you. On track and Off track??


That's why I came up with the on track rebate. Because of the pools on track, in state, and out of state.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

I'll try answering your specific questions one at a time:

You asked:
It's a good idea to offer a 50% rebate?

My reply:
A 50% rebate? No.

A 50% on track takeout reduction?

Absolutely and without question: Yes.

The racing product is drastically overpriced. A 50% takeout reduction for on track patrons sends the right message to the customer AND to horsemen.

First, it gives the customer an incentive to play on track again. Where do horsemen get the most bang for the customer dollar purse-wise? Wagers made on track.


You asked:
How many people in business offer that to their customers?

My reply:
Lots of businesses offer pricing discounts. Why? Because it works.

Even racing offers volume discounts in the form of rebates. And it works too.

If you think a 50% takeout reduction is too much, consider this: Currently, most players can find equal or better takeout reductions online in the form of rebates. Example: Trifecta takeout at Penn National is 31%. (IMHO, that's borderline criminal.)

Even at modest handle levels, most players who take the time to seek out rebates can expect to find rebates on a trifecta at that track in the 15-20% range.

My answer is that racing is already offering significant discounts to the price sensitive player. Why not offer the same kind of discount on track?



You asked:
What kinds of % discounts are you offering your real "good" customers in YOUR business?

My reply:
Funny you should ask that.

My "good" customers get to pick my brain in a great many areas. If my "good" customers give me a good idea, they can expect to find their good idea added to the JCapper program for FREE.

But as long as we're talking about discounted pricing...

I'm in the process of reshaping JCapper and emphasizing a completely different revenue model.

Instead of emphasizing JCapper Platinum, a high end software program that retails for $695.00, as of 8/1/2010 the emphasis will shift to JCapper Silver, a program with the following catch phase: Genuine JCapper Software at an Affordable Price.

JCapper Silver Product Description:
http://www.jcapper.com/JCapperSilverProductDescr.asp

JCapper Silver Pre Launch Announcement:
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=72172

As I type out this post, JCapper Silver hasn't even been released yet. But in the past 7-10 days I've started to receive checks in the mail from customers who are pre ordering it. I can honestly say that the revenue from JCapper Silver pre orders over the past 7-10 days has surpassed expectations. Based on what I've seen so far, it's a safe bet that the day will soon come when JCapper Silver revenue far outstrips revenue from sales of JCapper Platinum.


-jp

.
Jeff, are you saying that you are reducing prices to increase your bottom line?

That kind of thinking will never get you a job as a racetrack exec or on a horsemen's group committee. :)

[Jeff P]

Then it should die out. We don't need horse racing socialism in the form of state subsidies to "create jobs". Tax me to keep Joe Horseman in business? No thanks. Slots are fine with me even though others object. If the industry can prop itself up that way, good for them.

What is "pool integrity"? Are you saying there is past-posting going on? Because a tote system that has to process bets/cancels coming from all over the nation, many at the last minute, over wide area networks that simply aren't instantaneous at all times, on systems that may be antiquated, isn't going to deliver a final price at post time, unless you cut off the system earlier.

And that won't change the fact that odds you bet at cutoff time, whatever it may be, won't be final odds, unless you develop a nationwide instant tote system with infallible communications networks and software, etc.

I don't see how a slow processing system constitutes a question of "integrity." If you have proof of cheating then integrity is a question.
What do you think the public at large thinks when the odds on a horse are 6-1 when it breaks out of the gate on top and crosses the wire in front at 7-2?

You understand it and I understand it. However, it doesn't matter what you and I think or understand.

Enough people are turned off after seeing this repeated over and over again that people are staying away and handle is being negatively impacted.

You wrote: And that won't change the fact that odds you bet at cutoff time, whatever it may be, won't be final odds, unless you develop a nationwide instant tote system with infallible communications networks and software, etc.

You are absolutely correct. Racing is still using an antiquated tote system based on decades old technology.

The world has moved on. Customers from all walks of life in this day and age have come to expect better because they are used to seeing it delivered to them by other busineses/industries.

But it isn't being delivered to them by racing - and as a result they are staying away.

From the Fall 2009 HANA Survey:15. Do you think the industry should invest in a modern secure tote system
fast enough to render odds and payoffs in real time?

Yes: 85.1%

No: 3.7%

Not Sure: 11.2%




-jp

.

[Jeff P]

Jeff, how can you do a 50% takeout reduction on track only. You would have to have two separate pools wouldn't you. On track and Off track??Someone from Sci Games told me the tote system can be made to handle multiple takeout levels depending on the origin of the wager.

However, I'm thinking the easiest way to offer a discount to the on track patron would be to do something casinos do:

Player Rewards Card.

Player signs up for a rewards card. The card can be loaded up just like a debit card. Player walks up to a mutuel window or machine and swipes card. Player places wagers, asks to make a deposit to the card, or receive cash out from the balance on the card, etc. At the end of each day, rewards are added to the card balance by computer based on player handle for that day.

Sound complicated or expensive?

There's a laundromat right down the street from me where the machines don't accept cash. Instead they operate on a swiped card... I'm talking about a laundromat for crying out loud.

If a fking laundromat can innovate... why can't a racetrack?


-jp

.

[andymays]

Someone from Sci Games told me the tote system can be made to handle multiple takeout levels depending on the origin of the wager.

However, I'm thinking the easiest way to offer a discount to the on track patron would be to do something casinos do:

Player Rewards Card.

Player signs up for a rewards card. The card can be loaded up just like a debit card. Player walks up to a mutuel window or machine and swipes card. Player places wagers, asks to make a deposit to the card, or receive cash out from the balance on the card, etc. At the end of each day, rewards are added to the card balance by computer based on player handle for that day.

Sound complicated or expensive?

There's a laundromat right down the street from me where the machines don't accept cash. Instead they operate on a swiped card... I'm talking about a laundromat for crying out loud.

If a fking laundromat can innovate... why can't a racetrack?


-jp

.


It does get complicated. Ideally you wouldn't need a card if as you say there is a way to have different takeouts on track.

With the 50% on track takeout rebate on track you would have to have a card as well redeemable the next day. That gives people a reason to come back. You could also put some kind of minimun churned before the rebate can be cashed in. Maybe $1000 or whatever. It depends on the size of players you're catering to.

Regarding the Laundromat innovation you have to ask why it is when rwwupl went before the board to get Scientific Games to treat P4's and P3's the same when there is a scratch they said they couldn't do it. That is B.S. of course but it tells you how weak they are. The CHRB didn't give a crap about the customer again.

[chickenhead]

from a business perspective -- (tho not necessarily for those that want/need anonymity) -- rewards cards are exactly the way to go. There are a lot of reasons every casino has a players reward card, and Safeway has a club card, and Macy's has a charge card, etc, and its not for "rewards" -- the rewards are just the carrot they use to entice you to give them invaluable data about you as a customer.

You actually know who your customers are (name and address) and what they do and don't do. You can mail them a coupon when they haven't been around for awhile. You can invite them to some specific event, whatever, dangle some very specific carrot, tailored just for "people like them", to get them to do something. You can test things out and actually measure their impact directly, across different demographics. This is basically how the entire internet works, the measurability of things, click click click, data data data.

ADWs have an advantage in understanding their customers in this sense. They know a lot about you (every bet you ever made, how often you play, your specific response to a specific promotion, etc). Most bricks and mortar tracks without significant rewards card uptake don't have nearly as rich of data on their on-site customers, there is nothing to drill down into. People come and go, they can look at gross handle and attendance. Having a rewards card that people religiously use provides them with tons of useful data. Having a track owned ADW, where an ADW account and an on-site players rewards card are linked, providing them knowledge about you as an entity both on-site and off, would be the best of both worlds, from the viewpoint of them understanding their customer.

It should make for better marketing, promos, and offerings just through better awareness and understanding.

[andtheyreoff]

This is something that perplexes me and I've wanted to discuss.

With gambling becoming more of a "sit behind your computer" or simulcast activity ala Wall Street, which is fine, but a lot of people simply don't go to the track anymore.

So, we are constantly having conversations about crumbling infrastrcutures or (taken from another topic):



Then we talk about not wanting casinos at racetracks.

What I'm wondering is, if people don't actually GO to the track, then we really can't have these huge physical structures, buildiings and bathrooms and seats and such, looking like ghost-towns.

It's waste of real estate and infrastructure.

Mabye the reason racing "customers" aren't put first is because there are so few of them --- I mean, people have to be somewhere to get treated like honored guests. Catering to a population that is *tiny* isn't something practical.

My idea is that track facilities that don't have casinos may be practically lying dormant since everyone is betting with software and offshore and with AWDs. To keep racing alive you have to keep tracks where the horses are running alive. They can't be falling apart, and they can't be ghostowns.

Maybe they should just close some of them if they no longer have any physical attendance.

In Japan, they are packing huge stadium like buildings. But if betting behind a computer at home is what horse racing has become for some, then there really is no reason to have huge racetrack facilities, is there????? Why pay for building maintenance and landscaping and such? You can't pay for lights, A/C, heat, fast food employees, clerks, elevator people......if there are no actual human beings INSIDE your facility!

In those places, if there is no casino, and therefore, not enough actual foot-traffic on a regular basis, perhaps they should either close tem, , or have the actual horse track itself remain, but build other stuff around it, like the build gated communities, lakes and parks around golf courses. There could still be barns, and horses on the track to be broadcast on TV and to your computer screen, but you don't need *seats* for customers if there aren't any *customers* sitting in them?????????

Explain this to me and give feedback. It's not an opinion so much as a scenario that passes in my mind at times.

Personally, I don't think racing will ever experience any kind of "rebirth" until it is attended, in person, as a form of entertainment, where families can go for the day, just as they would go to a water park. In Japan, they have this. If we don't, then something needs to be done. Horseplayers who don't go to the track can't very well expect them to stay open, can they?

That bolded bit looks like the prohibitive favorite for most insane idea of 2010.

[W2G]

My idea is that track facilities that don't have casinos may be practically lying dormant since everyone is betting with software and offshore and with AWDs. To keep racing alive you have to keep tracks where the horses are running alive. They can't be falling apart, and they can't be ghostowns.

Maybe they should just close some of them if they no longer have any physical attendance.

In Japan, they are packing huge stadium like buildings. But if betting behind a computer at home is what horse racing has become for some, then there really is no reason to have huge racetrack facilities, is there????? Why pay for building maintenance and landscaping and such? You can't pay for lights, A/C, heat, fast food employees, clerks, elevator people......if there are no actual human beings INSIDE your facility!

In those places, if there is no casino, and therefore, not enough actual foot-traffic on a regular basis, perhaps they should either close tem, , or have the actual horse track itself remain, but build other stuff around it, like the build gated communities, lakes and parks around golf courses. There could still be barns, and horses on the track to be broadcast on TV and to your computer screen, but you don't need *seats* for customers if there aren't any *customers* sitting in them?????????

Explain this to me and give feedback. It's not an opinion so much as a scenario that passes in my mind at times.


I've thought about this too.

You should read a couple of pieces from Bill Shanklin last year. He makes the case quite well that racetracks should pursue quite different business models and customer value propositions. The "television studio" model scenario that you outlined is mentioned.
http://www.horseracingbusiness.com/in-search-of-viability-72.htm
http://www.horseracingbusiness.com/crafting-and-tailoring-racetrack-customer-value-propositions-1225.htm

I don't think the scenario is that far-fetched and it may only be a matter of time until it is attempted in some fashion. But I hope not.

Honestly, Turfway comes to mind as an example when I think about a potential "television studio" track. Stuck in the midst of a retail/restaurant area very near the airport and highway. Complete lack of ambience but very accessible. It's easy to envision the grandstand converted into a mixed-use office/retail facility and large areas of parking sold for development. Who wouldn't want an office window overlooking live racing? Their simulcast area is top notch, spacious and in the "basement" of the building so that would stay. Just musing here and Turfway is actually a poor example now since "instant racing" will change their business model. The "television studio" business model is really kind of a sad one but we could see it attempted somewhere if current trends continue.

[Robert Goren]

I am all for trying to attract new people to the track, but I don't get this family stuff. Race tracks are not (and never have been) a place for small childern. A race track is like a bar, it is place for adults. I don't have a problem with older teenagers being there, but it is no place for pre teens. Racing needs to market itself to a lot different age groups including people who have just become old enough to legally bet. JMO

[Horseplayersbet.com]

I am all for trying to attract new people to the track, but I don't get this family stuff. Race tracks are not (and never have been) a place for small childern. A race track is like a bar, it is place for adults. I don't have a problem with older teenagers being there, but it is no place for pre teens. Racing needs to market itself to a lot different age groups including people who have just become old enough to legally bet. JMO
Actually it used to be a family place. You'll find many of today's players 40 and up were brought to the track many times by at least one parent when they were kids.

[wisconsin]

Last Saturday was TwinSpires day at Arlington. Free addmission for members, and free buffet and gifts, and so on. I also went on Friday, and here is my observation, since I only get to AP about once a year. There was no shortage of attendance on either day. Lots of families. It's not about the live betting at Arlington, even if they say it is. It's really all about $10 addmission and expensive food and drinks. It was hot, and they were making big money on soda and beer. I would have to guess that they were taking in $25-$30 per patron turnstyle to exit. On Saturday, there had to be 10-12k, maybe more, in attendance. I'm sure this keeps some people away, but other young people including families with little kids are flocking, even if they don't bet as much. I have not bothered to do any math, but hard dollars are always worth more than a percentage of handle, and they were definitley getting that as well, just in lower numbers. Overall, based on what I saw, AP is not in dire straits.

The one thing AP has going for it, is that it's located in a heavily poulated and very affluent part of the suburbs.

[takeout]

On the way home he commented that "maybe we can go to CT tomorrow". I know that's going to get him started since now there is no place to sit at CT if you are an attendee and they don't do much for the attendee at CT and place all the attention on the casino people.So true! I still can’t believe that they displaced all of the upstairs horseplayers and shut down the majority of the grandstand at the same time. Now they're going to fool around for a damn month or more building some fire escape steps that should've been put it before the first poker table was ever allowed in the place. That shows you what they think of their horseplaying customers.