Review of Los Al Takeout Increase

[Jeff P]

The Commissioners are going to once again review Los Al's increased takeout experiment. It's slated as agenda item 15 for the next CHRB meeting on Thurs 7/22/2010 at Del Mar.

The "package" is now up on the CHRB site:
http://chrb.ca.gov/board_packages/July-2010.pdf

After the page loads, click the bookmark on the left for agenda item 15. There you'll find a description of the experiment's history along with player efforts to fight it.

I will be in attendance attempting to make the case that the experiment has been a failure.

It is my contention that the takeout increase is one of the driving factors behind Los Al's ON TRACK handle performance:

2010 vs. 2009 from the start of the experiment through the end of June, 2010:

Down 27 percent

If you would like to make your own thoughts known about this or any of the other agenda items, email your comments to the CHRB at:

BonS @ chrb . ca . gov
(remove the blank spaces first)


Thank You,


Jeff Platt
President, HANA



HANA Sign Up Link:
http://www.jcapper.com/HANA/SignUp/HANASignUpForm.asp?source=0


.

[andymays]

Jeff, you cite ON TRACK handle decrease. Has the overall handle decreased?

At the last meeting the other side seemed to be using a different method to calculate handle. Didn't they assert that handle had gone up? Or was is average daily handle with the elimination of one racing day per week? A track representative came on the Roger Stein show a while back and said handle had gone up since the increase in takeout.

Has anything changed since the last CHRB meeting where they blindsided you guys with different figures? If not how do you intend to counter their argument?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I read the item #

It looks like their conclusion is going to be that they need more time to figure it out. I guess it all depends at how you look at it.

If the handle is down as you say they should stick to their word and reduce the take by 2%.

The CHRB/California racing always seems to have an underhanded trick up their sleeve and this deal has been no different.

Are they going to audio cast this meeting or was the last one a one shot deal?

[Stillriledup]

I was asked the other day by someone, "do you bet Los Al" and i told them, "i used to, but when they raised the takeout, i stopped".

[MickJ26]

I'd imagine their handle is 90% TVG money pumped up by their pick 4 mania, Los Al's purses are still puny. MSW's for under $10,000. Yeah, they have million dollar derbies and futurities, but, their daily purses are very low.

[thespaah]

Takeout is a tax.. Historically, when taxes go up, revenues go down.
Why politicians or whomever is reponsible for takeout percentage levels, examine mistakes and keep repeating them expecting a different result is a mystery.

[BombsAway Bob]

TVG has splintered "The Quarters" crew over the past year.
Dave Weaver & Mike Joyce seldom get paired up anymore,
as TVG moves their shifts around to other time slots.
(Sorry,Chris Kotulak & Kyle Kaenel aren't Los Al Q'horse experts.)
Les has his roving handicapping tour, so he's on 'les' often.
At one time, TVG started promoting the night's Los Al races
about 90min. before the opener, showing Ed & Les Pick-4 tix.
Now, it's 15min. before opener before TVG starts talkin' LosAl.
Los Al racing secretary should also get a few jabs, as they
have moved more T'Bred races to the 5th & 6th race on their
10-race card, removing them from Pick-4 sequences in hopes
of improving the anemic handle on non-pick-4 races.
July 1st, Los Al was asleep at the wheel, not running a Thursday
card to coattail the nights Hollywood card, when they knew they
weren't going to run on the 4th of July.
FREE PP's, a smart promotion run every other month or so,
has also been discontinued by their marketing gurus.
ALL in All, it hasn't been run with maximum promotion this year!
(by design, to get more % of takeout?):eek:

[rwwupl]

The Commissioners are going to once again review Los Al's increased takeout experiment. It's slated as agenda item 15 for the next CHRB meeting on Thurs 7/22/2010 at Del Mar.

The "package" is now up on the CHRB site:
http://chrb.ca.gov/board_packages/July-2010.pdf

After the page loads, click the bookmark on the left for agenda item 15. There you'll find a description of the experiment's history along with player efforts to fight it.

I will be in attendance attempting to make the case that the experiment has been a failure.

It is my contention that the takeout increase is one of the driving factors behind Los Al's ON TRACK handle performance:

2010 vs. 2009 from the start of the experiment through the end of June, 2010:

Down 27 percent

If you would like to make your own thoughts known about this or any of the other agenda items, email your comments to the CHRB at:

BonS @ chrb . ca . gov
(remove the blank spaces first)


Thank You,


Jeff Platt
President, HANA



HANA Sign Up Link:
http://www.jcapper.com/HANA/SignUp/HANASignUpForm.asp?source=0


.


Jeff,

I sent in my thoughts to bons@chrb.ca.gov (Richard"Bon" Smith), with a copy to Mike Marten mikem@chrb.ca.gov.

Excerpt:

Please stand back, and take a clear look at what is happening here...

When you want to make something more exclusive,you produce less product and increase the price... but that only works if your product is in demand over the competition, and I think most of us know that the competition has the advantage on cost already...Horse racing is losing ground to other forms of gambling now.

When you want to sell more of something, you lower the price,not increase the price.

We are being told that the law of economics does not apply to horse racing.

Thank You.


P.S. I also sent in some thoughts on Item 16#

[andymays]

Jeff,

I sent in my thoughts to bons@chrb.ca.gov (Richard"Bon" Smith), with a copy to Mike Marten mikem@chrb.ca.gov.

Excerpt:

Roger, they know what's happening they just have to do what they're told to do before these meetings. The outcome for almost everything important is set before the meeting.

The only way to get stuff done is to put public pressure on them.

Radio shows, email, phone calls, ariticles. If we are telling the truth and the truth gets out then things will change. The problem is that the word only gets out to a few people. The bad guys have cover.

[rwwupl]

Roger, they know what's happening they just have to do what they're told to do before these meetings. The outcome for almost everything important is set before the meeting.

The only way to get stuff done is to put public pressure on them.

Radio shows, email, phone calls, ariticles. If we are telling the truth and the truth gets out then things will change. The problem is that the word only gets out to a few people. The bad guys have cover.


Andy,

If the outcome is pre-determined,we are all wasting our time... the people being addressed are the decision makers. They are not bad guys...they just need to see the picture more clearly...and you can help.

Yes, we are telling the truth,as we know it. We do not win on all issues all the time, but our visability is greater than ever and progress is being made, as the right people now care what we think.

You have done a fine job of getting the word out on a variety of subjects, with the print media and and other and we join you in that approach,as much as we can.

I hope you put your thoughts,as invited,on this issue,on paper and help make a difference to those in charge of this current CHRB agenda item#15, or any other agenda item that you wish to be heard . You can get the details known on each issue as pointed out in Jeff's lead in thread.

Your thoughts and vote will count... if you get it to the right people in charge.

Thanks, Roger roger@hanaweb.org

bons@chrb.ca.gov

mikem@chrb.ca.gov

[andymays]

Andy,

If the outcome is pre-determined,we are all wasting our time... the people being addressed are the decision makers. They are not bad guys...they just need to see the picture more clearly...and you can help.

Yes, we are telling the truth,as we know it. We do not win on all issues all the time, but our visability is greater than ever and progress is being made, as the right people now care what we think.

You have done a fine job of getting the word out on a variety of subjects, with the print media and and other and we join you in that approach,as much as we can.

I hope you put your thoughts,as invited,on this issue,on paper and help make a difference to those in charge of this current CHRB agenda item#15, or any other agenda item that you wish to be heard . You can get the details known on each issue as pointed out in Jeff's lead in thread.

Your thoughts and vote will count... if you get it to the right people in charge.

Thanks, Roger roger@hanaweb.org

bons@chrb.ca.gov

mikem@chrb.ca.gov


Thanks Roger, the way I read item #15 they're gonna keep it the same till September 8th. Is that the same way you read it?

I don't really believe they are all good people. I think some are incompetent. Some don't have any authority and just go along to get along. And some are egomaniacs only interested in their own power and short term interests. Those are the ones that have been ruining California racing. Are there good people? Of course. Change is coming one way or the other.

If HANA wants to make more of an impact you have to get more members by going on Radio Shows and things like that. You have to recruit people that want to get involved. It doesn't cost anything to be a force if you have an organized membership that participates by phone or email when serious issues come up. But you have to allow members to be involved on a regular basis and not once or twice a year (I don't mean myself because I get involved anyway).

[rwwupl]

Andy wrote:

Change is coming one way or the other


We agree, carry on.

[Igeteven]

Andy wrote:




We agree, carry on.

oh yea, it's really coming when there is nothing but horsemen on the board.

When you see businessmen and non horse owners on the board, who care about the sport and who don't have a vested interested in a horse, their pocket book, then one will see change. This will come in the next century, maybe.

[rwwupl]

oh yea, it's really coming when there is nothing but horsemen on the board.

When you see businessmen and non horse owners on the board, who care about the sport and who don't have a vested interested in a horse, their pocket book, then one will see change. This will come in the next century, maybe.


You should express yourself to someone who can do something about it...like the Gov...or hmmm...but for now we have to deal with reality,with those who occupy the seats. soooo... get busy and work for change as you see it.

Don't just be a wisher and complaint monger.

[Igeteven]

You should express yourself to someone who can do something about it...like the Gov...or hmmm...but for now we have to deal with reality,with those who occupy the seats. soooo... get busy and work for change as you see it.

Don't just be a wisher and complaint monger.

Andy, Help :cool:

[InsideThePylons-MW]

If the outcome is pre-determined,we are all wasting our time...

Truer words have never been spoken.

The outcome is pre-determined. I'm on many years of wasting my time. I'm not wasting any more on the people in charge. I gave up after I got an email outlining communications between the people in charge of CA a couple of months ago.

It discussed the possibilty of a very limited takeout reduction. Let's just say it was sickening to read their thoughts.

[InsideThePylons-MW]

I think some are incompetent.

This is actually a compliment.

Here is an example of one of their concerns from my post above......

"Are you concerned that lowering the P-6 takeout might create an "entitlement effect" if it successfully drove net commissions? The concern might be that certain player groups would point to its success and expect all pools to be similarly lowered."

That quote above is from somebody in charge.

It's impossible anybody could be this stupid. He is basically saying that if lowereing takeout on one wager is successful and increases revenue, he is worried about having pressure put on him to lower takeout on other wagers.

Are you fukking kidding me?

I gave up talking to anybody in charge after this one. Let them kill the sport in CA.

I fold!

[andymays]

This is actually a compliment.

Here is an example of one of their concerns from my post above......

"Are you concerned that lowering the P-6 takeout might create an "entitlement effect" if it successfully drove net commissions? The concern might be that certain player groups would point to its success and expect all pools to be similarly lowered."

That quote above is from somebody in charge.

It's impossible anybody could be this stupid. He is basically saying that if lowereing takeout on one wager is successful and increases revenue, he is worried about having pressure put on him to lower takeout on other wagers.

Are you fukking kidding me?

I gave up talking to anybody in charge after this one. Let them kill the sport in CA.

I fold!


I can't blame you. Until there is a new group running California it is unlikely that anything substantial will change. It looks like slow death right now.

[Zman179]

Roger, they know what's happening they just have to do what they're told to do before these meetings. The outcome for almost everything important is set before the meeting.

Oh ok, so it's like wrestling?

[andymays]

Oh ok, so it's like wrestling?

Good comparison for the most part.

[owlet]

They're basically done already. Essentially, they are filling the role of a receiver or trustee who marshalls the assets of a bankrupt entity and distributes them to the highest priority claimants or those who bitch the loudest.

At least a trustee recognizes, and is up front about, what he is doing. Check out "Hollywood Joe" Harper's first Del Mar blog of the season, up on the dmtc.com website today. Hollywood Joe has an amusing screed about the mighty vault that Del Mar keeps its cash in. Joe doesn't want to talk about the total of 35 horses entered in the first five races of his OPENING DAY card (and that's before scratches) or the problem faced by the racing industry in general. He's like the guy on the Titanic who orders to the band to 'play on' while the water rises.

That's Joe--all "entertainment" business, true to his pedigree and true to what racing's "leaders" have to offer.

Like the Texans say, the CHRB and Hollywood Joe are all hat, no cattle.

[rrbauer]

They're basically done already. Essentially, they are filling the role of a receiver or trustee who marshalls the assets of a bankrupt entity and distributes them to the highest priority claimants or those who bitch the loudest.

At least a trustee recognizes, and is up front about, what he is doing. Check out "Hollywood Joe" Harper's first Del Mar blog of the season, up on the dmtc.com website today. Hollywood Joe has an amusing screed about the mighty vault that Del Mar keeps its cash in. Joe doesn't want to talk about the total of 35 horses entered in the first five races of his OPENING DAY card (and that's before scratches) or the problem faced by the racing industry in general. He's like the guy on the Titanic who orders to the band to 'play on' while the water rises.

That's Joe--all "entertainment" business, true to his pedigree and true to what racing's "leaders" have to offer.

Like the Texans say, the CHRB and Hollywood Joe are all hat, no cattle.

Joe is one of the original spinmeisters. All puff and no smoke and a menacing glare for his critics.

[Rutgers]

The Commissioners are going to once again review Los Al's increased takeout experiment. It's slated as agenda item 15 for the next CHRB meeting on Thurs 7/22/2010 at Del Mar.

The "package" is now up on the CHRB site:
http://chrb.ca.gov/board_packages/July-2010.pdf

After the page loads, click the bookmark on the left for agenda item 15. There you'll find a description of the experiment's history along with player efforts to fight it.

I will be in attendance attempting to make the case that the experiment has been a failure.

It is my contention that the takeout increase is one of the driving factors behind Los Al's ON TRACK handle performance:

2010 vs. 2009 from the start of the experiment through the end of June, 2010:

Down 27 percent

If you would like to make your own thoughts known about this or any of the other agenda items, email your comments to the CHRB at:

BonS @ chrb . ca . gov
(remove the blank spaces first)


Thank You,


Jeff Platt
President, HANA



HANA Sign Up Link:
http://www.jcapper.com/HANA/SignUp/HANASignUpForm.asp?source=0


.

To be honest with you, I am not that up to date on the whole issue and I just went thru the package real quick, so please excuse any ignorance I may show.

Just a couple of thoughts on the issue from maybe a slightly different prospective then your own:

Since the takeout increase, commission and the purses have increased. (though it would be interesting to see the per race handle, purse and commission for all of 2009 or at least 1/09 - 6/09). But it should be obvious that the increases are not from the increase in takeout, but are actually in spite of the takeout increase.

Basically, the reason the commission and purse went up is because the handle per race went up about 35%. And the reason the per race handle went up is because of a decrease in races per week and an increase in field size.

I really don’t think any reasonable person, let alone a racing industry professional, can contribute handle going up because of an increase in takeout, especially an increase of 35%. The argument for the increase in takeout was the increase percentage would offset any decrease in handle, or at the very best, there would be no drop in handle.

Monmouth Park did the same thing and the handle went thru the roof. (And it went up regardless of how you looked at it.. total, by the week, by the day, by the race or by the runner.) Los Al’s handle increase is not as extreme or obvious, most likely because the negative impact of the takeout increase.

One of the things I find interesting about the “package’ is the chart on page 156, where they break down the handle and takeout by “brick and mortar” and “ADW”. The average handle per race at the “brick and mortar” went up about 25% after the changes took place, but at the ADW’s it went up about 51%, or twice as much.

I do not know the rules for ADW’s in CA with rebates and/or rewards and I do not know if the ADW figure only reflects money wagered within California, but it could be possible that the reason that handle per race increase was so much greater is because some ADW could of offset the 2% by increasing the rebate or reward thus negating the effect of the increase.

Using that premise, it could be argued that the increase in handle per race in the ADW reflects what the handle increase would have been at the ’brick and mortar” if Los Al did not increase the takeout. Increasing the pre-change per race handle at “brick and mortar” by 51% would mean the post-change total handle would be $68,964,955. Using the old takeout rate the amount of the takeout would have been $13,862,953, or $1,179,684 more then what they got. Even taking the old rate on the same ADW total still leaves the total takeout amount $600K+ greater then what they got. (And it is possible the handle could have gone up more then 51%, especially is ADW figure includes both those receiving rebates/rewards and those who do not. Because those who do not probably increased there per race handle 35% like those at the “brick and mortar”, while the rebate/rewards players increased their handle much more then 51%, it just average together it comes out to 51%)

Of course, in reality the “brick and mortar” handle and the total handle probably would have been larger because money in the pools attracts more money and lower takeout lessen the impact of bigger bets, which also grows the pools. So the actual handle and takeout amount would have been larger.

Of course, if the ADW premise is incorrect, it is still a reasonable argument that without the takeout increase the average handle per race at the “brick and mortar” would increased at least 51% based on the increase seen at Monmouth Park this summer. For example, Sunday’s handle per race was about $621K, the same Sunday last year it was about $286K. An increase of over 200% so it is entirely reasonable to expect Los Al handle per race to increase at least 51% in absence of the takeout increase.

And it may be worth pointing out that the increase in takeout has hurt California player (he pays 2% more per wager), helped the horsemen a little bit (purses are up just a little bit), but the ADW’s made a fortune (business being up over 50%). I am pretty sure the CHRB is suppose to protect the interests of California residents and horsemen, not the ADW’s.

(I did not see much in the package about purses, but it does appear they may be up a little bit.)

[rwwupl]

Rutgers,

You did fine, with your honest and informed opinion. That is all anyone can do.
I hope you will forward this to:

"comment on item #15,CHRB Agenda,7-22-10"

bons@chrb.ca.gov

[rwwupl]

Rutgers,

You did fine, with your honest and informed opinion. That is all anyone can do.
I hope you will forward this to:

"comment on item #15,CHRB Agenda,7-22-10"

bons@chrb.ca.gov


Thanks Rutgers,

One more chance for anyone else to forward your thoughts to the CHRB concerning the July 22 meeting...

The CHRB wants to hear what you think.. see Jeff thread starter for subject details.

Send to: bons@chrb.ca.gov

Thanks, roger@hanaweb.org

[rwwupl]

Thanks to Ernie Cote for your fine contribution to this request ...


bons@chrb.ca.gov

roger@hanaweb.org