WHO HAS THE BEST JOCKEY COLONY NEW YORK OR CALIFORNIA

[delayjf]

Read recently the Steve Davidowitz feels that with the retirement of McCarron, Pincay, Eddie D. that New York now has the better Jockey colony. I tend to disagree, still more hall of famers out west and about 4 or 5 not in the hall of fame, will be.

What do you think?

[Zaf]

I agree with Steve. Hard to match up against Day, Bailey, and Velazquez.

ZAFONIC

[Observer]

New York.

[Valuist]

New York-Saratoga and fall Belmont, definitely. Bailey, Day, Velaquez (both), Prado, Santos. In the wintertime, its a whole difference ballgame.

[VetScratch]

It's easier to ring up hall-of-fame stats for both jockeys and trainers when average field size is about 7 than when it's about 9. Too many West Coast stakes fields are short.

[so.cal.fan]

So. cal.fan has to agree here with the consensus.
:(

[SAL]

I would have to say east coast also. Stevens isn't the rider he used to be, and with McCarron and Pincay gone the SoCal colony is not as strong. PVal came back at the right time. Maybe Russell Baze should give SoCal another shot.

[delayjf]

While the top three New York riders previously mentioned are certainly in the elite class. New York simply lacks the depth that exist in California.
-Desormeux, Stevens, Smith, Crone, Solis, Espinosa, Nakatani,
P Val are all hall of fame riders.

-Rarely does the leading rider at any SoCal track win more than 20%.

-Between the two colonies current riders, who has won the most triple crown or Breeders Cup events? (I really don't know)

[rmania]

To me the strength of a jockey colony is measured by the competetion for quailty mounts. One or two jockeys running away with the most wins suggests weakness to me.

A colony does not just consist of the top few "elite" jockeys.

Just look at the jockey standings for both Del Mar and Saratoga. I think you'll find that, even though the names have changed, the SoCal coloney still remains the toughest.

[Observer]

I wouldn't put too much stock into who is or will be in the Hall of Fame. Every year one jockey must be put in .. because of this, we have seen riders getting in before their time .. Jerry Bailey no doubt deserves to be in the Hall of Fame .. but he was on the upswing of his career when he was inducted .. how is that right?? And Bailey is not the only one to be inducted in this manner. To me, it just doesn't seem right for a rider to be in the Hall while they're becoming the star .. they should be in after.

As for standings, maybe the California riders are just all so ordinary there is no one in particular the trainers go after for their best stock.
;)

With regard to the current Saratoga standings, you have Velazquez who rides for Pletcher all the time .. and Pletcher went on that major run of winners through the first few weeks. As for Bailey .. he always gets the winners because he's a rider who rarely makes mistakes. However, make no mistake .. the New York jockey colony has many talented riders.

[rmania]

Originally posted by Observer
As for standings, maybe the California riders are just all so ordinary there is no one in particular the trainers go after for their best stock.
;)
If this were the case (which I don't agree with) then it would suggest a certain degree of stupidity on the part of the top riders in NY.

If you were the top jockey in NY... and were considered one of the best jockeys in the country... and thought for a second that the jockeys in SoCal were ordinary... and considering the fat purses and "short" fields.. wouldn't you be on the first flight to LAX.... I certainly would. :eek:

[Valuist]

Espinoza in the Hall of Fame? I don't think so. If he wasn't War Emblem's rider for the 2002 Derby & Preakness, 98% of the handicappers outside of California wouldn't know who he is. Even then, I'm sure there's quite a few fans who don't who what rider won the 2002 Derby and Preakness.

[VetScratch]

Rmania,
If you were the top jockey in NY... and were considered one of the best jockeys in the country... and thought for a second that the jockeys in SoCal were ordinary... and considering the fat purses and "short" fields.. wouldn't you be on the first flight to LAX.... I certainly would.Could it also be that a succesful jockey such as Mike Smith saw attrition coming (McCarron, Pincay, Eddie D.) and looked for greener pastures on the West Coast? And perhaps this is why Krone is at Del Mar?

[rmania]

Originally posted by VetScratch
Rmania,
Could it also be that a succesful jockey such as Mike Smith saw attrition coming (McCarron, Pincay, Eddie D.) and looked for greener pastures on the West Coast? And perhaps this is why Krone is at Del Mar? That may be the case with Smith. Or it could have been accidental good timing.

Krone, on the other hand, lives in Carlsbad, CA. About 8 miles north of Del Mar.

Yet neither are runnibg away with riding titles. They're both right there along with about 4 other "ordinary" jocks. :rolleyes:

[VetScratch]

Since Krone is on the comeback trail, proximity makes some sense. However, none of the jockeys at Saratoga commute back and forth between Glens Falls (what a depressing thought)!

[VetScratch]

BTW, I'm sure Glens Falls has many attributes and has been rvitalized in recent years since I was a cub journalist in the Tri-Cities right after college when many upstaters jokingly referred to Glens Falls as the "armpit of the state." No offense intended!

[delayjf]

Valuest,

Espinosa is a relatively young rider, yet he has made a name for himself competing in the most competitive circuit in the nation. He's been competing successfully in SoCal when Pincay, McCarron, Eddie D. Antley were all still riding. Not only has he won triple crown races, he's won at least one Breeders Cup race on Spain.

I like Mike Smith and Julie Crone and God rest his soul, Chris Antley, but the fact is neither of these "leading NY riders" have come out here and dominated the way they did in NY. Ask Joe Bravo how tough it is to make it out here.

[kenwoodallpromos]

Baze has not been as good as prior to falling off a horse last winter.
I think the best jockeys ride the smartest, knowing the track and the horses. I think this is true of So Cal jockeys. N Y joxkeys ride ouit of state a lot. I think the top jockeys in NY are top U.S. jockeys for stakes, but top to bottom I think So. Cal jockeys ride smarter. Top NY jockeys do not seem to dominate on the cheaper odds-on horses and some NY jockeys seem to have just 1 riding style.

[delayjf]

NY riders have won a total of 24 breeders cup events spread out amoung 5 riders, One rider (Bailey) has won half of that total.

California riders have won 33 breeders cups events spread out amoung 9 riders.

This includes current riders who ride regularly on the NY and Cali circuits. NY totals do not include Pat Day as he spends most of his time in Kentucky.

[VetScratch]

That's not how to count... Del Mar vs Sar is the current issue.

Otherwise, you have to look at each career, such as Smith's, to see where they used to spend the most time.

Furthermore, why measure by a small race sample which was influenced more by the horses and trainers than the pinheads?

[mgardens@BTW]

Best Jockey-PVal, hands down. WC also has Mike Smith & Krone, but they are not in the same league as PVal. Bailey can't touch PVal's socks.

Best Colony-Woodbine. Go ahead and laugh. When you're done, watch their races and you'll see some fine handling.

:D

[delayjf]

Vetscratch,

No, the issue is NY vs Cal. The regular riders on each circuit. Pat Day spends most of his time on the Kentucky circuit as do a few other riders that spend August in Saratoga. California does not enjoy that luxury. All the riders I looked at currently ride regularly in California.

[Pace Cap'n]

The answer, to me, is quite simple.

Until about 4:00PM CST, New York rules.

After that, it's California, in a walkover.

[Suff]

NY draws from a Larger talent pool.. as

Deleware, Pimilico,Monmouth, Philly Park, Suffolk, Finger Lakes and Penn National are all a short ride from NY.

If you throw in East Coast tracks,,,Like CD, Calder, Gulfstream, et al. You get the idea. All these tracks send thier all-stars to NY frequently. And they get Buried....Bravo and Albarado are two examples of guys that went west AFTER they did well in NJ and struggled in NY.
Julie Krone is not an example I'd use. Do you think she'd be having the same success in NY as she is in California?
She's there because the wins are easier and the Money is easier.
She'd starve in NY.

Also...ask the Jockeys. I've heard most of them say....NY is the toughest circuit to make it on. *remember Dunkleberg? Albarado? (all of them)

Guys that are in it for the money....go west. Guys that are in it for the level of Competition go east.

Bailey and John Velesquaz are the #1 and #2 riders in the country. Thier current success isn't a reflection of the strength of the community, but rather, an example of how GREAT these two guys are.

Watching Baily and Velesquez is like being lucky enough to get Babe Ruth and Ted Williams on the same Ballclub. They are just so superior to everyone else that they all look human next to them.

Those two plus

Guidry, Coa, Santos, Prado, Castellano, Day, Chavez, Bridgemohan, Pat Husbands, Lumpkins, Sellers and Cornileaus Velesquaz make the Saratoga Colony the toughest right now. Easily. IMHO

[delayjf]

I won't argue the fact that the NY circuit is more competitive than the SoCal circuit. Or that the Saratoga meet is superior to Del Mar in terms of quality racing. Due to its status and tradition, owner and trainers from all ove the east coast flock to take in the waters. Bottom line, full competitive fields.

However; when two Jockeys are both winning races at a 30% clip, that doesn't say much for the "competitiveness" of the Jockey colony.

I don't see how you can assert that Julie Crone would not be competitive in NY, she's been there and done that. I know for a fact that she won at least one riding title at Belmont, not sure if she ever did at Saratoga or not.

I would agree that Bailey is the top jockey in the nation right now. But Velasquez is hardly in the same league, yet. Regardless, neither Jockey if they came to SoCal would win more than 20% tops.

On a national level, Socal Jockeys have a much bigger impact than the NY Colony. Clasic example, yesterdays stakes at Arlington. Gary Stevens, J Valdivia, David Flores. and about 3 other Socal jockies competed. Were were the NY riders. Two (or three) SoCal rides won depending on how you view the Million outcome.

Side note, in previous posts I omitted mentioning David Flores who can ride with the best of them, just doen't have the star power behind his name, and doesn't get the Stakes horses that he deserves. But again, the fact that leading stables would recuit the services of two Jocks that are not leaders in the standings at their home track(Flores is 9th, Valdivia 10th) says somethings about that tracks talent of that Jockey Colony.

[cj]

Suff,

I might argue for Prado as one of the top two over Johhny V, but its a close call either way. Top 3 are NY regulars.

[Suff]

5 wins yesterday and still the doubters...

By the time he is done.....he'll be arguably the best that ever Road.

I love this guy... Johnny V. IMHO....by the time he's done.. You'll all be saying.. " I was lucky to have watched that kids entire career".....

The man has elevated the Game.....You wanna win? You gotta go through him. He's beyond talented.....he's gifted.

[rmania]

Originally posted by Sufferindowns
5 wins yesterday and still the doubters...

By the time he is done.....he'll be arguably the best that ever Road.

I love this guy... Johnny V. IMHO....by the time he's done.. You'll all be saying.. " I was lucky to have watched that kids entire career".....

The man has elevated the Game.....You wanna win? You gotta go through him. He's beyond talented.....he's gifted. I remember thinking/saying the same about PVal when he was an apprentice. And, if not for the drugs, I might had been right.

Still, at his age and considering the amount of time he was banned from riding, it's nothing short of amazing that he was able to return and proceed to win one riding title after another.

Hopefully, Jonny V. won't encounter the same problems.

[VetScratch]

Long before many of the names listed in this thread hit the headlines in NY or SO-CAL, they rode somewhere else, and often couldn't take the riding titles back home in the bushes.

Lumpkin and Smith are perfect examples if you track them back to their origins. When you go East or West, you are SOL unless you hook up with the right agent.

Others like Desormeaux and Guidry waited until they had the right connections in place before they left home-circuits where they dominated.

Bailey, after plastic surgery and under a pseudonym, could not take the title at FP or RD without connections to get him aboard winning mounts.

[delayjf]

Vetscatch,

I absolutely agree and obviously success begrets success, that's true amoung trainers as well.

Sufferin,
I'm not doubting J Velasquez's riding ability. But to take his place amoung the greats, he needs to accomplish more than just dominate locally. Look at Russell Baze's stats, he may well pass Pincay someday, but does anybody think he's in the same league as Shoemaker, Pincay?? I don't mean to demean Baze, but the truth is we will never know because he rarely leaves NoCal to ride in stakes races else where or to compete on a major circuit.

[Observer]

Originally posted by rmania
If this were the case (which I don't agree with) then it would suggest a certain degree of stupidity on the part of the top riders in NY.

If you were the top jockey in NY... and were considered one of the best jockeys in the country... and thought for a second that the jockeys in SoCal were ordinary... and considering the fat purses and "short" fields.. wouldn't you be on the first flight to LAX.... I certainly would. :eek:

Didn't think my line about CA riders being ordinary would be taken seriously, especially since I had the wink following the line. But, since it appears that it was taken seriously, let me clearly state .. that was said with sarcasm.

[Observer]

Originally posted by delayjf
...Ask Joe Bravo how tough it is to make it out here.

Joe Bravo had trouble on the NY circuit, with the exception of Aqueduct in the winter, and even that wasn't easy. The place he dominated on the east was Monmouth ... which is not in New York .. it's in New Jersey.

And, by the way, Julie "Crone" is spelled Krone .. with a K.

[Observer]

Originally posted by mgardens@BTW
...Bailey can't touch PVal's socks.

If that's true, why's it been Bailey riding pretty much all the best horses in the game??? Why is it that trainers turn to Bailey more than they turn to PVal???

[Observer]

Just a few more points from me .. Ryan Fogelsonger had developed business in NY this past winter at Aqueduct, and did pretty well .. better than John McKee, who was expected to be the apprentice to watch out for. However, I thought I read somewhere that Fogelsonger was going to go out west .. so, if this guy had already established some connections in New York, why would he decide to make the move to CA ... I would have to say it's because of a statement already said on this thread .. because the wins and money are easier. And I do agree that Krone would have a tougher time if she were here in NY .. and believe any CA rider would for that matter. I do believe Stevens once came to NY for a fall meet at Belmont before a BC and had a tough time.

When it comes down to it, there are a few riders who get the best business on the NY colony .. like Bailey, Velazquez and Prado. There are many other capable riders, but they struggle for what they get. However, on the CA colony, it's my opinion that the business is more evenly spread around because there aren't the few riders that get the bulk of the business.

[VetScratch]

Pat Day's valet cooks better biscuits and gravy than any of them!

There, that settles it! :) :)

[delayjf]

While it might be true that CA riders moving to NY would have a tough time getting mounts. The same would be true for any NY rider moving west. IMHO, no way does Bailey or Velazquez come to CA and win 30% even after they are established. What's surprizing is that on a competitive circuit like NY, that any riders would win at such a clip. You would expect to see that on a circuit like SoCal, due to the short fields.

To me, what a Jock does locally is one thing, what he does on the national scene is another and here is where the CA colony shows its depth. When was the last time Coa or Castellano were asked to leave town to ride a Grade I million dollar race, and then win ala Valdivia / Flores???

[Suff]

Originally posted by delayjf


To me, what a Jock does locally is one thing, what he does on the national scene is another and here is where the CA colony shows its depth. When was the last time Coa or Castellano were asked to leave town to ride a Grade I million dollar race, and then win ala Valdivia / Flores???

Coa in his day? Bunchs...And MIG and Bridgmohan ship often..


They all ship....far more than California...

The NY circuit... is Belmont, Keeneland, Churchill Downs, Gulf Stream Park and Saratoga...

NY Riders ship all year... to all these.

[VetScratch]

Suff,
The NY circuit... is Belmont, Keeneland, Churchill Downs, Gulf Stream Park and Saratoga...I don't think the jockeys or their families would agree with you. Almost all jockeys and their families would like to be based in N.Y. or L.A.

GP, CD, and KEE are primarily business trips, although GP is also a winter/spring vacation spot. The money attraction of NY and SO-CAL racing is obvious, but N.Y. and L.A. are also favored because jockeys and their families are more comfortable in these cities.

In response to demographic trends, we might expect this preference to diminish, but N.Y. and L.A. will probably always be the most favored home bases for jockey families.

Because I don't like to wear high heels during the daytime, I am also more comfortable in N.Y. or L.A. than in Lexington or Louisville.

Good luck at the windows to you and the rest of the gang at SAR!

[Valuist]

Delayjf-

I believe Castellano was asked to ride an out of town Grade 1 on Saturday at Arlington, which he won on Kicken Kris.

As for the comment someone else made about Bailey not being in PVal's league, if that's the case, why does Frankel fly Bailey into SoCal for his top stakes engagements? After all, he could get the mighty PVal.

[aaron]

The reason Krone and Smith are in California is because they no longer could compete in New York.Mike Smith might have become a factor in New York Racing again if given the opportunity.I doubt that Krone could have competed here.Both lost something because of injuries.Smith stopped getting mounts and when Julie left she was basically a throw out.She hardley ever went to the lead.The only races she seemed capable of winning was when an outside closers bias exsisted at Belmont.Mike Smith was a top rider who lost all his connections,partley due to injuries and partley due to lackluster performance.Right now I don't think either could compete on the NY circuit.Of the two I would gine Smith the better chance on the NY circuit.

[Observer]

As already mentioned, Castellano did win aboard Kickin Kris on Arlington Million Day .. it was in the G1 Secretariat. He's also gone out of town for guys like Pletcher and Hennig .. earlier this year, I believe in the spring. As for Coa, is he truly considered a NY jockey??? Obviously, we all have our opinions on what a NY jockey is.

Right now, depsite Bailey being near the top of the Saratoga riding standings, I do think he's slumping a bit .. making some questionable judgements .. and there have been reports that Frankel has not been happy, like with Empire Maker and Spoken Fur. However, I do think if Bailey went out to California, he'd have much success out there as well.

Not only has Bailey been flown out there for Frankel horses, but also for Baffert .. look at this year's Big Cap .. Bailey was on Congaree for Baffert, and Edgar Prado was on repeat winner Milwaukee Brew for Frankel.

If it were between Bailey and Velazquez, I'd say Bailey would have the easier time breaking onto the California circuit .. because he's already proven how important he is to some of the biggest, most currently dominant names out there. No question, in my mind, Velazquez would be a major force, but maybe not as easily as it would be for Bailey.

[delayjf]

I stand corrected concerning Castellano, when I made the observation I was only comparing the 9th and 10th place jockeys at Saratoga.

Along with the Breeders Cups stats, below are the stats for the Kentucky Derby as well.

Note: When compiling the below, I only counted those riders who are CURRENTLY riding in NY and SoCal. Therefore, I did not count Pat Days Stats. Sorry Suffering, but I do not consider CD, KEE, or GP a part of the NY circuit. I did count Mike Smiths stat in SoCals ledger as the debate is "Who currently has the better Jockey Colony, NY or SoCal" and Smith currently rides in SoCal.

Kentucky Derby Stats 1990-2003
SoCal NY
5 wins 4 wins
7 places 3 places
7 shows 2 shows

Of interest:
6 different riders contributed to the SoCal total of 18 derby placings, with Stevens leading Socal riders with 5 placings.

5 different riders contributed to NY total of 9 placings with Bailey accounting for over half of the total (5).

1998 and 2002 Socal riders rode for the Superfecta. In 97, they rode for the trifecta.

2003 NY riders rode for the trifecta.

[mgardens@BTW]

Imo, he wants Bailey because he's based in NY and that's where his main action is in the summer & will follow as necessary. PVal does ride for the man.

Look at it this way, back a few years, Paulson/Mott wanted PVal as their stable rider...he was their first choice...and that's when he was having all that inner turmoil!

[Valuist]

Frankel spends far more time in SoCal than he does in the "Empire" state. He just is concentrating more now there because of Saratoga and then fall Belmont. But that's only 3 months out of 12.

I wish no ill will toward PVal but would anyone be surprised if he had another relapse? I would be surprised if it doesn't happen.

[VetScratch]

Frankel spends his time in N.Y. and L.A. for the same reason the jockeys do... he is not very tall.

Shorty's and Stumpy's are always attracted to places where they fit in comfortably and are not gawked at. During the past two decades, the average height of folks in N.Y.C. and L.A. has fallen further behind the national average, which was increasing quite rapidly from 1900 to 1960, but now increases at a slower rate.

[VetScratch]

Hmmm... before anyone overreacts to my last post, check your facts. I like NY and LA because, as Cosmo says, you can leave your heels at home when you go there. Average age and immigration are the two factors that have created this situation, which almost anyone from the Midwest or Great Plains states has noticed.

[mgardens@BTW]

Valuist, what part of my message didn't you understand? I had said he uses Bailey in NY in the SUMMER!

There was no need to insult PVal over his past problems. That was really uncalled for.

Feel free to go ahead and bash me now since I don't plan on attending this string again.

[SandyE]

Seeing how I'm on the East coast so I'll go with NY/NJ colony as being the better. Plus there are a few Jockeys' who have come from else where to ride here primairly at Monmouth Park, which has a few riders who during the winter either move their tack to Fl or to NY. There's a guy who for the second summer has moved his tack from Western Austrailia. So we must be doing something right. Joe would the 6 month rule have something to do with why he had to go back home last year? And probably this year also?

[VetScratch]

With all the guys at Saratoga, it appears as if the summer doldrums will be with us for a while. I put the cheese out (i.e., Shorty & Stumpy) to start a good geographic food fight, but no takers!

Without actually polling the jockeys is there any sense to this thread? What is a "jockey colony" except a migration to where the money is good? Penn National would suit them fine if that was where the money was, and I've never heard a Cajun or Kentucky hard boot claim to be a New Yorker or Californian.

Sure, many good handicappers spot "mistakes" or "smart handling," but every instance is also intertwined with factors determined by horses, trainers, agents, and other jockeys. I can understand acknowledging that the best jockeys with the best connections get the best mounts, but from listening to players at the track or at an OTB, a blind person would conclude that the horses must be riding the jockeys!

Any of the top jockeys mentioned here could have gotten Tom Fool to the winners' circle (especially for 10% in the walkovers). :) :)

[kenwoodallpromos]

Would it be in bad form to ask which trainer colony ruins the most horses? I know a lot of declining ones go from Southern CA to Northern CA.

[VetScratch]

Ken,
Originally posted by kenwoodallpromos
Would it be in bad form to ask which trainer colony ruins the most horses? I know a lot of declining ones go from Southern CA to Northern CA. Except for FL, New York has no equivalent to NO-CAL or the Fairs... probably because King George III set aside the Royal Colonies of Massachusetts, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania as the minor circuits for New York. :) :)

[Tom]

.....What do you call a BEL maiden, with 56 starts, no in-the-money finishes, was last last itme out, and is running at Finger Lakes today?


Prohibitive Favorite.

[Bubbles]

Originally posted by Tom
.....What do you call a BEL maiden, with 56 starts, no in-the-money finishes, was last last itme out, and is running at Finger Lakes today?


Prohibitive Favorite.

Hahahahaha...Sad part is you're right. At FL, miles are routinely run in 1:42 or 1:43.

Now I've got one. What do you call a NY-Bred with 29 starts, only 6 wins, 15 in the money finishes, that is running on NY Showcase Day with a jockey the average horseplayer's never heard of?

A state hero any year Funny Cide doesn't run. ;)

[delayjf]

Vetsctratch,

I don't need to poll all the Jockeys in NY/CAL to make a subjective judgement on the overall quality of the Jockeys who ride there. I'm not trying to make a point, I just asked the question, after all isn't that what this forum is for?