Thoroughbred Manifesto

[EdgeProSheets]

I am writing a manifesto on what needs to be done to better the industry as a whole. From changing age limits on horses for racing and breeding, to track take and taxes, to racing surfaces exotic wagers and creating "fans" and "bettors".

I would like all the input I can get. Post away... Thanks

[eastie]

well lowering takeout to a new lower % that is the same for all wagers at all tracks would be a great place to start. Uniform drug tests that are the same everywhere would also help things.

[Dave Schwartz]

I wish you luck in your endeavor with this thread. However, most of these threads wind up sounding like: "...and I'd like big screen TVs to be sold for $39.95 and Dodge Vipers should go for around $799 and, oh... I'd like a vacation home in the Florida keys for $1,500."

The issues of change in our industry need to begin with getting the industry leaders to understand that the customer deserves to be considered at all.

So, the first item - and maybe the only item - on THIS year's manifesto should be to just recognize the bettor as being important.


Regard,
Dave Schwartz

[Horseplayersbet.com]

I am writing a manifesto on what needs to be done to better the industry as a whole. From changing age limits on horses for racing and breeding, to track take and taxes, to racing surfaces exotic wagers and creating "fans" and "bettors".

I would like all the input I can get. Post away... Thanks
I don't think a horse should be able to go to stud until he is at least 5, and 6 would be even better.
For mares, I would also put a restriction that they be at least 5.
This will keep stars in the game longer, and will produce a thoroughbred that doesn't peak as a three year old in May.

Another thing the industry should look at immediately is to have consistent payout prices reported. Preferably using the base bet the track allows for each wager, or a universal standard of $2 for WPS, $2 for exactors, doubles, and Pick 6's, and a $1 base for all other bets.

[comet52]

My advice would be don't do it. You are taking on a thankless job. But if you really want to.... :rolleyes:

From what I see, when racing improves at a particular track in isolation from the generally dying industry, it seems to involve improved fields and facilities, and putting some of the bad p.r. about racing to rest. Getting people to believe it's a fun time to go to the track, and certainly concerts and other promotions can help too. And frankly, a bank of slots doesn't hurt either. That's reality in this day and age. But people here don't like it. They couldn't tell you how to change it except for one idea they trumpet over and over (see below).

This forum has a lot of "purists" who hate all that stuff, so you will get mixed opinions and confusion in general about what is really good for racing. The idea that it's entertainment and must compete with other forms doesn't really enter into the hardcore gambler's mind. He's not equipped to tell you what you need to know on your quest to improve racing. It's not really about the things that gamblers think matter so much, because a larger public interest in racing cannot be gotten purely through gambling when there are such easier ways to gamble nowadays for most people.

This is reality that has developed over many years and the clock cannot be turned back, so "solutions" must acknowledge this reality and attempt to find a way to make racing a worthy form of entertainment. The ontrack experience must thus consist of more than a hollow canyon of a grandstand with no services and grudging old ticket takers who wish they were somewhere else, while 5-6 horse fields run the same race 9 times a day.

There is a belief (false imho) fostered here that takeout reduction is a magic bullet that will raise horseracing from the dead, and you will no doubt get an earful about it shortly. More likely it would get a few more serious punters who pay attention to bet electronically, which in the end isn't going to send enough handle to any track to change anything. It's a good self-serving consumer crusade - who doesn't want lower prices for everything? But it's not the cure all some think it would be.

[Robert Goren]

I agree to a certain extent that lower takeout is not the only thing that needs to be done. However if the takeout is not lowered, none of the other stuff will matter. The way things are going, pretty soon all you going to have is a bunch of big betters with large rebates wagering against each other. I do not think that is a business model that can succeed. I think that you need a lot of betters with diverse opinions on which horse is going win. That is not the direction that we are headed in now.

[kenwoodall2]

Congrats on becoming an authorized avertiser!
Since you probably do not have the time to probe all previous improvement posts, I will give you my latest and greatest ideas!
1) An effective and encompassing national PR and Promotions office tasked to reach the general public with positive human interest stories and promotions utilizing corporate networking and major media. Also to vonduct public and industry surveys on critical issues of horses and fan vs bettor interest methods.
2) A new 50 easy question open book test with certificate for National Thoroughbred (Quarterhorse, Harness) Handicapper "Degree"; Simplified handicapping lessons and methods for newbies, with track and OTB discounts for National Thoroughbred Handicapper(s) and track beauty queens helping newbies.

[EdgeProSheets]

I would like to see 7 for mares and 9 or 10 for studs. this will keep good horses racing longer and help create a stronger fan base...fans of the horses!

[EdgeProSheets]

I agree to a certain extent that lower takeout is not the only thing that needs to be done. However if the takeout is not lowered, none of the other stuff will matter. The way things are going, pretty soon all you going to have is a bunch of big betters with large rebates wagering against each other. I do not think that is a business model that can succeed. I think that you need a lot of betters with diverse opinions on which horse is going win. That is not the direction that we are headed in now.

Lower takeout will never happen to any great extent.

"I think that you need a lot of betters with diverse opinions on which horse is going win. That is not the direction that we are headed in now" We need to eliminate starter allowance races AND limit claiming race purses to the amount of the claiming price.

[InsideThePylons-MW]

We need to eliminate starter allowance races AND limit claiming race purses to the amount of the claiming price.

This is absolutely vital to the survival of horse racing and should be item #1 in bold letters on the manifesto.

This is the kinda outside the box thinking racing needs.

[EdgeProSheets]

Congrats on becoming an authorized avertiser!
Since you probably do not have the time to probe all previous improvement posts, I will give you my latest and greatest ideas!
1) An effective and encompassing national PR and Promotions office tasked to reach the general public with positive human interest stories and promotions utilizing corporate networking and major media. Also to vonduct public and industry surveys on critical issues of horses and fan vs bettor interest methods.
2) A new 50 easy question open book test with certificate for National Thoroughbred (Quarterhorse, Harness) Handicapper "Degree"; Simplified handicapping lessons and methods for newbies, with track and OTB discounts for National Thoroughbred Handicapper(s) and track beauty queens helping newbies.

Genius.

[sjk]

I would like to see 7 for mares and 9 or 10 for studs. this will keep good horses racing longer and help create a stronger fan base...fans of the horses!

The vast majority of horses are retired due to injury way before these ages.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Nowadays, you need a motivating factor to learn to bet horses. And that is the perception that either a big life changing score can happen anytime (a national lottery) or that the game can be beaten by at least a few who have savvy and some luck going for them (visible winners).

[joanied]

I would like to see 7 for mares and 9 or 10 for studs. this will keep good horses racing longer and help create a stronger fan base...fans of the horses!

I think kenwoodall2's ideas are very good...PR has got to play a huge part in getting racing 'out there'.
I can't speak for take out ideas, or any other betting stuff...although I agree that the handicappers should be getting a little more bang for their bucks!
I also agree that claiming race purses need to be adjusted.
I also think lower purse structure for 2 year old races might help...put the big bucks into 3 year old & older races...this way it would be possible for the 2 year olds to get just thr right amount of racing to build a good foundation, while allowing them more time to develope. Purse monies for the older horses should go up...as an insentive for owners to race at 4 years old and up.

The ages for going to the breeding shed, at 7 for mares & 9 or 10 for stallions is unreasonable...once mares get into their late teens, it gets harder for them to get pregnant and stay pregnant and delivery gets dangerous...for female horses, I'd have to say that 4 years old would have to be a more realistic age...besides the fact that breeding problems occur at the late teen age bracket, you must understand that mares don't produce offspring every year like clockwork...more often than not, they will have at least a couple of years with no foal produced, for one reason or another.
Colts could be forced to stay out of the breeding shed until 5 years old...even 6...no problem with that. It would still give them many years of production, and also give mare owners a much better idea as to what to expect from a certain stallion...speed, stamina, soundness issues.

Uniform, nationwide drug rules, testing and harsh penalties...which we've gone over about a zillion times already.

[kenwoodall2]

Nowadays, you need a motivating factor to learn to bet horses. And that is the perception that either a big life changing score can happen anytime (a national lottery) or that the game can be beaten by at least a few who have savvy and some luck going for them (visible winners).
I just went to Finger Lake (+777 casino) website- they slideshow casino winners' pix and amounts won ($10,000.00 or more); but I doubt that includes racing bet winners- if so, not helping racing promotion.
As to purses, My admittedly naive' opinion is that there should be a starter purse for all of $500-$2,000 per starter, depending on purse of the race. To finish 6th in a feature and not be compensated at all for shipping costs etc is not helpful.
I still think that a low level winner should still be able to run as a maiden on other surfaces. If a horse won 1 of 10 or 1 of 20 on dirt, he should be able to run against AW or turf maidens, and maybe stay around longer. And maybe 3 maiden wins on 3 surfaces would make his record look better for betting (more handle!).
Would races for 6+up only help?

[kenwoodall2]

Nowadays, you need a motivating factor to learn to bet horses. And that is the perception that either a big life changing score can happen anytime (a national lottery) or that the game can be beaten by at least a few who have savvy and some luck going for them (visible winners).
Big score- Repeating myself, a pool only disbursed when the longest shot wins the feature would be big- especially with 50 tracks having their own pools all at once. Just like pick6, there are always big carryovers somewhere. But you only have to put $1 on the regular win pool longshot. With absolutely no handicapping needed (just look at longshots in the M/L, program, or current regualr pool tote), the general public press would be much more willing to report on those large carryovers and the big winners! And of course, the carryover and live pool the last meet day (payoff regarless of who wins the feature) would be a record for massive number of winning tickets!
Game can be beaten= My answer is to instill in newbie the idea of varying their handicapping factors depending on stated race conditions (situational handicapping) would help cut the losses and win a higher % of races. As far as I know no small simplified booklets exsist on the subject. Currently there is no 1 on 1 or small class tutoring by experienced players in exchange for discounts.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Richard Eng wrote Betting on Horse Racing For Dummies
http://www.buy.com/prod/betting-on-horse-racing-for-dummies/q/loc/106/39975007.html

[thespaah]

I am writing a manifesto on what needs to be done to better the industry as a whole. From changing age limits on horses for racing and breeding, to track take and taxes, to racing surfaces exotic wagers and creating "fans" and "bettors".

I would like all the input I can get. Post away... Thanks
Track managements/ marketing depts

Treat customers as though they were valued guests instead of a tolerated necessary evil.
Offer people an incentive to become new fans. Wagering vouchers. Perks for their subsequent visits. Overall, copy the playbook of casinos. Oh yeah, big bettors should get big perks. Treat the high rollers like honored guests. Keep them coming to the track

To track managments and racing jusrisdictions.... Wrest control of the industry from horsemen's groups.
Set up a hard and fast no nonsense policy grading enforcement of rules. Especially drug rules. Make the penalties for cheating with drugs so draconian, no one will ever take the chance. None of this namby pamby PC nonsense of "oh we don't want to deprive a person of making a living". BULL!!!!! You play, you pay. The integrity of the sport is much much larger than any one person's career. Like Judge Smails said in "Caddyshack"...."The world needs ditch diggers too"....
Make it illegal for anyone with a racing license to place a pari-mutuel wager on any race where any one of those said licensees is connected to a horse in that particular race.


Perform a non partisan, independent research project on all aspects of dirt vs artificial suface racing. Come up with a conclusion and let the tracks go from there. This issue has become quite tiresome.
Fewer race dates. The sport is saturated. Too many tracks in geographic proximity to one another competing for similar stock. That's counter productive...How many more tracks have to shut down before States, track managements and horsemen's groups realize that what they have now is not working.

[EdgeProSheets]

I think kenwoodall2's ideas are very good...PR has got to play a huge part in getting racing 'out there'.
I can't speak for take out ideas, or any other betting stuff...although I agree that the handicappers should be getting a little more bang for their bucks!
I also agree that claiming race purses need to be adjusted.
I also think lower purse structure for 2 year old races might help...put the big bucks into 3 year old & older races...this way it would be possible for the 2 year olds to get just thr right amount of racing to build a good foundation, while allowing them more time to develope. Purse monies for the older horses should go up...as an insentive for owners to race at 4 years old and up.

The ages for going to the breeding shed, at 7 for mares & 9 or 10 for stallions is unreasonable...once mares get into their late teens, it gets harder for them to get pregnant and stay pregnant and delivery gets dangerous...for female horses, I'd have to say that 4 years old would have to be a more realistic age...besides the fact that breeding problems occur at the late teen age bracket, you must understand that mares don't produce offspring every year like clockwork...more often than not, they will have at least a couple of years with no foal produced, for one reason or another.
Colts could be forced to stay out of the breeding shed until 5 years old...even 6...no problem with that. It would still give them many years of production, and also give mare owners a much better idea as to what to expect from a certain stallion...speed, stamina, soundness issues.

Uniform, nationwide drug rules, testing and harsh penalties...which we've gone over about a zillion times already.

I would like to do away with two-year-old races altogether. If horses don't race til 3 years old that would let them develope a whole extra YEAR and would make for much much more sound horses all around, we are breaking them down so early trying to get them to earn money so young that they just can't take it and they break down and are "retired" broken and lame and useless.
Like your points on the breeding ages, but think I could only go to 5 for mares and 7 for studs, we need these horses racing to create and KEEP a fan base for them, people like horses!! and want to see them race, just look at what Rachel A. and Zenyatta are doing for the "fans" right now...we need more of that! fans will turn into bettors if we can keep them interested, look at the past 10 years of Ky. Derby winners, lots of fans and then up and gone without a trace. Fusaichi Pegasus, where is Big Brown? tons of them...

if we can't get them to do away with 2yo races I like the idea of lower purses for those race and higher purses for the older horses.

[thespaah]

Well maybe not altogether. I say no earlier than their ACTUAL second birthday..Or July 1 whichever comes first.
Most horses are foaled in the spring anyway. So 7/1 should make them all 2yo's. And 2yo's should be limited to 4 or starts and no more than 15 works.
And no BC for 2YO's...Don't need it.
I also think unless a horse is injured and can no longer race( must be certified by TWO independent State Vets, a horse cannot be retured for breeding until they turn five years old. I am sick or racing to breed.
This sport needs superstars. And retiring great horses after their three year old season robs us of great horses.