Ed DeRosa: One Man's Takeout Is Another Man's Rebate! Why the B.S.?

[andymays]

http://blog-beb.thoroughbredtimes.com/2010/07/takeout.html

Excerpt:

But I digress. My biggest issue with takeout is that it's not the same for everyone and the nature of the pari-mutuel system is that you're playing against anyone else in the pool and should thus be playing by the same rules.

The higher the takeout, the more rebates places that don't offer live racing can offer . If takeout were 10% with 3% going to the host track, 3% going to the host horsemen, 2% going to taxes, and 2% to the location taking the bet, then there is not a lot of wiggle room there to rebate your best players.

If, however, takeout were 26% with 4% each going to the host track and horsemen and 3% to taxes then that still leaves 15% for the location taking the bet. Giving a 10% rebate still leaves them with 5% of all wagers, which is more than they'd get if the takeout were 10%.

http://blog-beb.thoroughbredtimes.com/2010/07/takeout.html

[The_Knight_Sky]

...the nature of the pari-mutuel system is that you're playing
against anyone else in the pool and should thus be playing by the same rules.

_____________


Exactly.

What good is Marketing for new horse racing fans
if you're going to ask them to clear 26% takeout rates ?

Not too many cross over to profitability. They've left the game permanently.
And some are still trying to go from red to black after twenty years.

Does horse racing have twenty years of patience left from their customers :confused:

[Deepsix]

Okay.... you've convinced me, every race everyone should win.

[rwwupl]

Rebates combined with takeout is the cost of the bet to horse players.

We have computers now. There are other ways to reward the deep pocket players.Everyone should pay the same for the cost of any pari-mutuel bet.

A tiered variable rate system is a sham,and uncalled for by anyone with any sense of fairness or real concern for the customers.

The only way to grow the game(and have it survive the way we know it) is to expand the fan base. Forget about caps,t-shirts,slots and Quadrupple-Quadrafectas.

Lower the takeout and and allow horseplayers to rejoin the process as respected participants in our favorite game.

Let skill and knowledge separate us,...not our wallets

Success will follow.

[Indulto]

Rebates combined with takeout is the cost of the bet to horse players.

We have computers now. There are other ways to reward the deep pocket players.Everyone should pay the same for the cost of any pari-mutuel bet.

A tiered variable rate system is a sham,and uncalled for by anyone with any sense of fairness or real concern for the customers.

The only way to grow the game(and have it survive the way we know it) is to expand the fan base. Forget about caps,t-shirts,slots and Quadrupple-Quadrafectas.

Lower the takeout and and allow horseplayers to rejoin the process as respected participants in our favorite game.

Let skill and knowledge separate us,...not our wallets

Success will follow.rw,
If you're not going to use the bolded line as your trailer, I hope somebody else does. IMO Robert Goren has raised your visibility with the Toyota quote to a level that no HANA marketing maneuver could possibly match.;)

For those of us without a deep pocket perspective, please enumerate all the ways we could get the whales to leave their lovers (rebate shops). :D

[rwwupl]

rw,
If you're not going to use the bolded line as your trailer, I hope somebody else does. IMO Robert Goren has raised your visibility with the Toyota quote to a level that no HANA marketing maneuver could possibly match.;)

For those of us without a deep pocket perspective, please enumerate all the ways we could get the whales to leave their lovers (rebate shops). :D

Indulto...

Thank you. If everyone was to pay the same take,like perhaps an optimum 10% across the board, I doubt if there would be any rebates...because any rebate would have to come from the hide of the rebater.I do not think that will happen.

If no rebates,there would be no reason to bet offshore or with any shop that did not feed into the mainstream pari-mutuel system, and give traditional support to purses and all parts of the game per existing contract. That would make horsemen, players and racetracks happy and the deep pocket players would pay no more for their bet than anyone else.

Lowering the cost of the bet to optimum would produce more fans and revenue.

Rebates now come from the excess charges that some players pay for the privilige of making a bet and redistributed by the bet taker to those he wants to favor with a reward for doing business with him..

"Perks" for important customers is nothing new and can come in many forms,such as passes, special accomodations and V.I.P. treatment, but having one customer subsidize another because he is a deep pocket player on a sole, basic product as a pari-mutuel bet is discriminatory and wrong.

You might as well put up a sign,we welcome you,especially if your wallet passes our test.

That is no way to build or maintain a loyal customer fan base.

[andymays]

Indulto...

Thank you. If everyone was to pay the same take,like perhaps an optimum 10% across the board, I doubt if there would be any rebates...because any rebate would have to come from the hide of the rebater.I do not think that will happen.

If no rebates,there would be no reason to bet offshore or with any shop that did not feed into the mainstream pari-mutuel system, and give traditional support to purses and all parts of the game per existing contract. That would make horsemen, players and racetracks happy and the deep pocket players would pay no more for their bet than anyone else.

Lowering the cost of the bet to optimum would produce more fans and revenue.

Rebates now come from the excess charges that some players pay for the privilige of making a bet and redistributed by the bet taker to those he wants to favor with a reward for doing business with him..

"Perks" for important customers is nothing new and can come in many forms,such as passes, special accomodations and V.I.P. treatment, but having one customer subsidize another because he is a deep pocket player on a sole, basic product as a pari-mutuel bet is discriminatory and wrong.

You might as well put up a sign,we welcome you,especially if your wallet passes our test.

That is no way to build or maintain a loyal customer fan base.

When is the next vote? You need to be promoted young man. :ThmbUp: ;)

[Stillriledup]

Indulto...

Thank you. If everyone was to pay the same take,like perhaps an optimum 10% across the board, I doubt if there would be any rebates...because any rebate would have to come from the hide of the rebater.I do not think that will happen.

If no rebates,there would be no reason to bet offshore or with any shop that did not feed into the mainstream pari-mutuel system, and give traditional support to purses and all parts of the game per existing contract. That would make horsemen, players and racetracks happy and the deep pocket players would pay no more for their bet than anyone else.

Lowering the cost of the bet to optimum would produce more fans and revenue.

Rebates now come from the excess charges that some players pay for the privilige of making a bet and redistributed by the bet taker to those he wants to favor with a reward for doing business with him..

"Perks" for important customers is nothing new and can come in many forms,such as passes, special accomodations and V.I.P. treatment, but having one customer subsidize another because he is a deep pocket player on a sole, basic product as a pari-mutuel bet is discriminatory and wrong.

You might as well put up a sign,we welcome you,especially if your wallet passes our test.

That is no way to build or maintain a loyal customer fan base.

Its not even a perk, its just trying to even up the 'cost' of the better customer.

If a big bettor sticks 2k to win on a 3-1 shot, he could possibly knock his horse down to 5-2 and get 7 bucks. In the very next race, a 2 dollar bettor can stick 2 dollars to win on a 3-1 shot of his very own and he gets 8 dollars even.

So, why should the 'better customer' get 7 dollars when the less important customer gets 8?

Horse racing is not fixed odds wagering, which means that the bigger bettors are essentially winning some of their own money, while the 2 dollar bettor isn't winning a penny of his own money. The 2 dollar bettor is winning 100 percent of other people's money, while the 2k bettor is winning other people's money and his own money.

I just responded to Ed's blog and talked about the same stuff over there.

[Stillriledup]

Rebates combined with takeout is the cost of the bet to horse players.

We have computers now. There are other ways to reward the deep pocket players.Everyone should pay the same for the cost of any pari-mutuel bet.

A tiered variable rate system is a sham,and uncalled for by anyone with any sense of fairness or real concern for the customers.

The only way to grow the game(and have it survive the way we know it) is to expand the fan base. Forget about caps,t-shirts,slots and Quadrupple-Quadrafectas.

Lower the takeout and and allow horseplayers to rejoin the process as respected participants in our favorite game.

Let skill and knowledge separate us,...not our wallets

Success will follow.


Everyone has the same opportunities to become a large whale kind of bettor. The skill and knowledge DO seperate us, the smarter players find ways to become big bettors and get rebates. We all have the same chance.

[Indulto]

Indulto...

Thank you. If everyone was to pay the same take,like perhaps an optimum 10% across the board, I doubt if there would be any rebates...because any rebate would have to come from the hide of the rebater.I do not think that will happen.

If no rebates,there would be no reason to bet offshore or with any shop that did not feed into the mainstream pari-mutuel system, and give traditional support to purses and all parts of the game per existing contract. That would make horsemen, players and racetracks happy and the deep pocket players would pay no more for their bet than anyone else.

Lowering the cost of the bet to optimum would produce more fans and revenue.

Rebates now come from the excess charges that some players pay for the privilige of making a bet and redistributed by the bet taker to those he wants to favor with a reward for doing business with him..

"Perks" for important customers is nothing new and can come in many forms,such as passes, special accomodations and V.I.P. treatment, but having one customer subsidize another because he is a deep pocket player on a sole, basic product as a pari-mutuel bet is discriminatory and wrong.

You might as well put up a sign,we welcome you,especially if your wallet passes our test.

That is no way to build or maintain a loyal customer fan base.rw,
You're dangerously close to straying from the company line. ;)

DT will let you know when you've crossed the line:

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=61078&page=8&pp=15
See post #114

Hey DT,
Your dialogue was even funnier than I remembered,:ThmbUp:

BTW has there been any discussion of my suggestion for a fund-raising training video to be filmed at MTH on HANA day at the races there with several prominent HANA handicappers contributing?

[PaceAdvantage]

The interesting part of this whole thread is that there is absolutely NOTHING stopping any of the "rebate bashers" here in this thread from obtaining rebates themselves. US-based shops like Premier Turf Club, among others, are perfectly legal and accessible to players big and small alike.

Some of you are acting as if you are somehow prohibited from earning a rebate. Nothing is stopping you.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

The interesting part of this whole thread is that there is absolutely NOTHING stopping any of the "rebate bashers" here in this thread from obtaining rebates themselves. US-based shops like Premier Turf Club, among others, are perfectly legal and accessible to players big and small alike.

Some of you are acting as if you are somehow prohibited from earning a rebate. Nothing is stopping you.
Actually, some of the bashers live in states like California. There are quite a few states where Horseplayers can't receive rebates from. I can understand their concerns.

[Rutgers]

Actually, some of the bashers live in states like California. There are quite a few states where Horseplayers can't receive rebates from. I can understand their concerns.

And New Jersey. The thing that is bad about NJ is places like Premier Turf Club and HorsePlayersbet.com can offer the signals from Monmouth Park and the Meadowlands and give rebates (or rewards), but NJ residents can not get rebates or rewards from using the state mandated 4NJBets.com.

Basically, NJ owns both tracks, but bars NJ residents from getting rebates from playing the tracks, but allows rest of the country to get them.

NJ puts it own residents at a disadvantage in playing it own tracks.

[comet52]

The patchwork quilt of bet takers, tracks, horsemen, regulatory bodies, corporations, etc. is a tangle of self-interested groups all fighting over a shrinking carcass. Many deaths are imminent, methinks.

[rwwupl]

Actually, some of the bashers live in states like California. There are quite a few states where Horseplayers can't receive rebates from. I can understand their concerns.


Thank you. I know rebates are a way of life for some, but if there were none, and everyone paid the same optimum price for a cost of the bet,the industry would be better off. More fans, more revenue,growth instead of atrophy. No favors for some at the direct expense of others.

Yes,I live in California,and yes I bet in California, because I am a Californian. I am a Californian who respects principle and what is right according to the way I see things.

It is not legal for me to receive rebates,even though I am a yearly "Platinum" bettor with YouBet and other legal outlets.. Yes, I have been offered rebates by several others,offshore and mainland, but it is not legal or the money does not go into the mainstream for purses, etc. How much money is bet in California to jurisdictions that does not funnel into the mainstream is unknown.

People living elsewhere can bet on California races and receive rebates...and I can not, so the high take that I pay for being loyal(some would say I am not smart,and that is O.K. too), is being redistributed to others or being pocketed as an excessive charge for the bets that I make.

People(business) who capitalize on the rebate feature of high takeouts,will find another way to distinguish themselves and attract customers, and it would not matter to deep pocket bettors because they would still be getting a low cost of bet .

It is a question of basic fairness to customers,and the horse racing industry needs to recognize that fairness needs to be a part of their menu offering.

Success will follow fairness.

rwwupl

[Stillriledup]

Thank you. I know rebates are a way of life for some, but if there were none, and everyone paid the same optimum price for a cost of the bet,the industry would be better off. More fans, more revenue,growth instead of atrophy. No favors for some at the direct expense of others.

Yes,I live in California,and yes I bet in California, because I am a Californian. I am a Californian who respects principle and what is right according to the way I see things.

It is not legal for me to receive rebates,even though I am a yearly "Platinum" bettor with YouBet and other legal outlets.. Yes, I have been offered rebates by several others,offshore and mainland, but it is not legal or the money does not go into the mainstream for purses, etc. How much money is bet in California to jurisdictions that does not funnel into the mainstream is unknown.

People living elsewhere can bet on California races and receive rebates...and I can not, so the high take that I pay for being loyal(some would say I am not smart,and that is O.K. too), is being redistributed to others or being pocketed as an excessive charge for the bets that I make.

People(business) who capitalize on the rebate feature of high takeouts,will find another way to distinguish themselves and attract customers, and it would not matter to deep pocket bettors because they would still be getting a low cost of bet .

It is a question of basic fairness to customers,and the horse racing industry needs to recognize that fairness needs to be a part of their menu offering.

Success will follow fairness.

rwwupl


But you can move. There's no law that says you have to live in Cali the rest of your life. By staying in Cali, you are saying "i'm choosing the California lifestyle over the rebate".

You can't say its unfair, because if you really wanted a rebate, you would move to a state where you can get one. The rebate is available, you just have to go get it.

[Dahoss9698]

But you can move. There's no law that says you have to live in Cali the rest of your life. By staying in Cali, you are saying "i'm choosing the California lifestyle over the rebate".

You can't say its unfair, because if you really wanted a rebate, you would move to a state where you can get one. The rebate is available, you just have to go get it.

So he should pack up and move to get a rebate? Don't you understand why that is so fundamentally screwed up? Why should what state you live in matter when it comes to rebates?

[Cardus]

So he should pack up and move to get a rebate? Don't you understand why that is so fundamentally screwed up? Why should what state you live in matter when it comes to rebates?

You never get it, do you?

He cannot be a real racing fan and not uproot his family and himself, find a new house, and get a new job in order to get a rebate.

[Indulto]

Thank you. I know rebates are a way of life for some, but if there were none, and everyone paid the same optimum price for a cost of the bet,the industry would be better off. More fans, more revenue,growth instead of atrophy. No favors for some at the direct expense of others.

Yes,I live in California,and yes I bet in California, because I am a Californian. I am a Californian who respects principle and what is right according to the way I see things.

It is not legal for me to receive rebates,even though I am a yearly "Platinum" bettor with YouBet and other legal outlets.. Yes, I have been offered rebates by several others,offshore and mainland, but it is not legal or the money does not go into the mainstream for purses, etc. How much money is bet in California to jurisdictions that does not funnel into the mainstream is unknown.

People living elsewhere can bet on California races and receive rebates...and I can not, so the high take that I pay for being loyal(some would say I am not smart,and that is O.K. too), is being redistributed to others or being pocketed as an excessive charge for the bets that I make.

People(business) who capitalize on the rebate feature of high takeouts,will find another way to distinguish themselves and attract customers, and it would not matter to deep pocket bettors because they would still be getting a low cost of bet .

It is a question of basic fairness to customers,and the horse racing industry needs to recognize that fairness needs to be a part of their menu offering. …rw,
I too am a CA resident and, ironically, the only track I now wager on is in NJ, and I only bet into those pools with a 15% direct take.

The horseplaying bashers of rebate bashers are only out for themselves which makes them no worse than the short-sighted and/or self-centered among horsemen, track management, and government.

It might be enlightening if we could obtain a “guesstimate” as to the number (and/or percentages) of of players actually receiving rebates on North American tracks and at what tiers.

Success does NOT follow lemmings. ;)

[comet52]

Is it a mystery to people that money bet with offshore bookies does not contribute to keeping the tracks open or the horses being fed?

I don't object to rebates per se but a business model in which I bet with a bookie on an event and someone else has to bet on the event locally in order to keep it going is probably not going to work, when the betting incentives all lie with betting with the bookie. The event dies over time.

This is why the horse lobby helped push through UIEGA which really killed the fun of sportsbetting for a lot of us.

[Stillriledup]

So he should pack up and move to get a rebate? Don't you understand why that is so fundamentally screwed up? Why should what state you live in matter when it comes to rebates?

No, i'm not saying he should pack up and move. I'm just saying the system, the way its set up, is fair. If i want to be a bettor at Betfair, i can move to Europe, but i choose to live in the USA, so i'm not a member of Betfair even though i want to be. I've made that choice, the system is set up fair, you can get a rebate if you want one bad enough.

[Dahoss9698]

No, i'm not saying he should pack up and move. I'm just saying the system, the way its set up, is fair. If i want to be a bettor at Betfair, i can move to Europe, but i choose to live in the USA, so i'm not a member of Betfair even though i want to be. I've made that choice, the system is set up fair, you can get a rebate if you want one bad enough.

How is the system fair if some states are eligible and some states aren't? Wouldn't a "fair" system be one where all states are eligible (where betting is legal)?

[Stillriledup]

How is the system fair if some states are eligible and some states aren't? Wouldn't a "fair" system be one where all states are eligible (where betting is legal)?

Sure, that would make it more fair. But, we have to play the hand we are dealt unfortunately.

[Dahoss9698]

Sure, that would make it more fair. But, we have to play the hand we are dealt unfortunately.

Agreed. So what was the point of your original post? Don't you think everyone knows we have to play the hand we are dealt?

[InsideThePylons-MW]

Agreed. So what was the point of your original post? Don't you think everyone knows we have to play the hand we are dealt?

The one's who have the shitty hand, which I had at one point, don't like their hand, won't do what's needed to improve their hand, so they want everybody to have a shitty hand.

I want 10% takeout for everybody but I don't think that will happen.

There are teams using computers and programs that I don't have. They also get a slightly higher rebate than I get. More power to them. They spent the time and money to do what they had to do to get the best situation they could get.

[PaceAdvantage]

Actually, some of the bashers live in states like California. There are quite a few states where Horseplayers can't receive rebates from. I can understand their concerns.I understand this, but an extreme remedy to this is what Stillriledup already mentioned.

The point is, if anyone wants or need rebates badly enough, they can get them. They aren't solely for whales.

[InsideThePylons-MW]

I now know why Fred Pope gets labeled a genius by publications such as Thoroughbred Times.

"I would love to see takeout of 10% for WPS, 13%-17% for exotic wagers, and 20% for super exotic wagers, but part of me would like to see a track try 30% takeout as a starting point to see how it affects business." ......Ed DeRosa (Thoroughbred Times Editor)


How can anybody in the industry be this stupid and have a high profile job/blog that delivers this moronic nonsense to people who actually might think he has a clue about industry issues?

http://blog-beb.thoroughbredtimes.com/2010/07/feedback-on-rakeback.html

[lamboguy]

And New Jersey. The thing that is bad about NJ is places like Premier Turf Club and HorsePlayersbet.com can offer the signals from Monmouth Park and the Meadowlands and give rebates (or rewards), but NJ residents can not get rebates or rewards from using the state mandated 4NJBets.com.

Basically, NJ owns both tracks, but bars NJ residents from getting rebates from playing the tracks, but allows rest of the country to get them.

NJ puts it own residents at a disadvantage in playing it own tracks.
thats not exactly true. if new jersey wants you they will rebate you! you just have to know the right people. anyone that walks in the door can get a silly assed rebate from the track, the rate is comencerate with how much you bet, but not that much.

[rrbauer]

Sure, that would make it more fair. But, we have to play the hand we are dealt unfortunately.

So, does that mean that you're going to move: or, not going to move?

[Indulto]

The one's who have the shitty hand, which I had at one point, don't like their hand, won't do what's needed to improve their hand, so they want everybody to have a shitty hand.

I want 10% takeout for everybody but I don't think that will happen. ...No, ITP, we want it to be less ahitty for most until handle increases to the point where it isn't shitty for anybody. Rather we want it to eventually be even more lucrative for you as you oalready seem torecognize from your declaration underlined above.