RAIL TRIP MOVING TO DUTROW BARN

[andymays]

http://www.paulickreport.com/blog/rail-trip-moving-to-dutrow-barn/

Excerpt:

Jay Em Ess Stable’s Rail Trip will be heading East to the New York barn of trainer Rick Dutrow following his second-place finish as the heavy favorite in last Saturday’s Hollywood Gold Cup Handicap at Hollywood Park, won by Awesome Gem.

[Bullet Plane]

According to the Paulick Report, Rail Trip is headed to the Dutrow Barn. Ariticle doesn't say why.

But, going down in flames as the short priced favorite might have something to do with it.

Rail Trip has early speed and the East Coast tracks might play more to this advantage.

Who knows?

[cj]

At least we'll get to see him on dirt, until of course Dutrow ruins him.

[andymays]

At least we'll get to see him on dirt, until of course Dutrow ruins him.

I can guarantee you the owners are so pissed off by the loss the other day they've had enough. Dutrow should call Bejarano to thank him.

So long California.

[OTM Al]

Guess that ends the Zenyatta vs Rail Trip comparisons. Bring on Rachel vs Rail Trip!

Actually don't. I don't think I could take it.

[andymays]

Guess that ends the Zenyatta vs Rail Trip comparisons. Bring on Rachel vs Rail Trip!

Actually don't. I don't think I could take it.


The Pacific Classic just got a little softer. Is it soft enough for "you know who" now?

[andymays]

This has the potential to be a real juicy story.

I hope we get some quotes where the parties involved don't hold back.

You would think someone would have asked why he's moving. Ray Paulick put up the article but didn't ask any questions. Strange. :confused:

Was it the loss? Was it the ride?

Was it the synthetic surfaces in California?

Was it California?

[Dahoss9698]

This has the potential to be a real juicy story.

I hope we get some quotes where the parties involved don't hold back.

You would think someone would have asked why he's moving. Ray Paulick put up the article but didn't ask any questions. Strange. :confused:

Was it the loss? Was it the ride?

Was it the synthetic surfaces in California?

Was it California?

If I had to bet it's the surface. With the Breeders Cup on dirt might as well get him running on dirt sooner than later.

[andymays]

If I had to bet it's the surface. With the Breeders Cup on dirt might as well get him running on dirt sooner than later.

Makes sense. The loss and the bad ride probably made it easy to make the decision.

[SmartyParty]

So who owns Rail Trip? And why in the world Dutrow?!

[Dahoss9698]

So who owns Rail Trip? And why in the world Dutrow?!

The Siegel's who have many horses with Dutrow.

[andymays]

Nobody else is reporting the story. It's a little strange that Paulick would have it up so soon. It was as if he talked to the owners. If he did talk to them you would think he would have asked some questions.


DRF just put up an article about Golden Itiz who has the same owners and Trainer but didn't mention a thing about the move. Just that he won't go in the Swaps. I wonder if they're moving him too. The article says Ellis wasn't satisfied with the recent training.

Golden Itiz won't go in Swaps

http://www.drf.com/news/article/114743.html

Excerpt:

Owned by Mace and Samantha Siegel, Golden Itiz has won 3 of 4 starts and $118,080. He won the Affirmed Handicap in his stakes debut on June 19.

[cj]

This has the potential to be a real juicy story.

I hope we get some quotes where the parties involved don't hold back.

You would think someone would have asked why he's moving. Ray Paulick put up the article but didn't ask any questions. Strange. :confused:

Was it the loss? Was it the ride?

Was it the synthetic surfaces in California?

Was it California?

Isn't the obvious answer they want to run him on dirt since that is what the BC Classic will be run on? May as well find out now.

[Robert Goren]

Is he a NJ bred? The only reason a proven poly runner would come east is to pick up some easy money at Mth.:rolleyes:

[Cardus]

At least we'll get to see him on dirt, until of course Dutrow ruins him.

Do you think that Dutrow is capable of squeezing out a Jockey Club Gold Cup or Breeders' Cup Classic win from the horse? (And, of course, will Rail Trip be able to produce the required effort?)

[cj]

Do you think that Dutrow is capable of squeezing out a Jockey Club GOld Cup or Breeders' Cup Classic win with the horse? (And, of course, will Rail Trip be able to produce the required effort?)

No, I don't.

[andymays]

Isn't the obvious answer they want to run him on dirt since that is what the BC Classic will be run on? May as well find out now.
Yes but there had to be a huge dust up after the race. Ellis has been saying all along that he would go in the Pacific Classic.

[JustRalph]

I think he is a pace dependent horse and he may get better pace setups on the dirt on the east coast.........can't hurt and why not find out how he runs on dirt etc..........

then again......Dutrow might change his style

[andymays]

I think he is a pace dependent horse and he may get better pace setups on the dirt on the east coast.........can't hurt and why not find out how he runs on dirt etc..........

then again......Dutrow might change his style


Dutrow will move him up.

[Tom]

Can't hurt getting off the rug.

[only11]

Dutrow will move him up.
Move him up? ...lets not go crazy here Andy..when did Dutrow become Neil Drysdale..He aint half the trainer Ellis is!

[andymays]

Move him up? ...lets not go crazy here Andy..when did Dutrow become Neil Drysdale..He aint half the trainer Ellis is!

They aren't sending him to Dutrow because they think he's half the trainer Ellis is. They're sending him there because he has been underachieving out here. Whether it becaus of Ellis, Synthetics, or the loss/ride in his last race they think he'll improve on dirt and under Dutrow. Whether he improves remains to be seen but I think he'll improve on dirt and under Dutrow as well.

[carlonr]

Guess that ends the Zenyatta vs Rail Trip comparisons. Bring on Rachel vs Rail Trip!

Actually don't. I don't think I could take it.


BCC! Zenyatta will show up!

[Spalding No!]

Yes but there had to be a huge dust up after the race. Ellis has been saying all along that he would go in the Pacific Classic.
Ellis said just before the Gold Cup that he was taking it one race at a time and hadn't looked beyond the Hollywood race. I thought there was serioustalk about him heading back east anyways. The only real surprise is the full-on trainer change, as Ellis has raced at Saratoga successfully in the past.

Nevertheless, switching to Dutrow is convenient for the owners, especially if the horse ultimately improves on dirt, as there would be no reason to return to CA.

The same connections have been fairly successful rejuvenating another gelding of theirs, Arson Squad, when moving from Bruce Headley to Rick Dutrow. That horse was the poster child for a good horse hampered by synthetics as he went from a near 100% ITM record at 3 and 4 to complete goose-eggs once the synthetics were installed. Switched to the east for the dirt and, despite an advanced age, he has run to his previous best in CA, though raced sparingly.

[JBmadera]

Watched an interview with one of his owners (the daughter, I think) a couple of days before the race and she made a comment or two about Ellis which at the time that seemed a bit odd but I didn’t think much of it - so not surprised the horse was moved.

[MickJ26]

I'm crossing my fingers the Woodward could contain Quality Road, Blame, Rachel Alexandra and Rail Trip; and quite possibly I Want Revenge third off a layoff.

[Spendabuck85]

Should have sent him to Rudy instead of Dutrow.

[toussaud]

Should have sent him to Rudy instead of Dutrow.

the way he is moving up stock he would have rail trip in the arc.

[Robert Goren]

the way he is moving up stock he would have rail trip in the arc. Winning the Arc by daylight.;)

[andymays]

Rail Trip Moves To Dutrow Barn | BloodHorse.com
http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/57892/rail-trip-moves-to-dutrow-barn

Excerpt:

“It’s simple,” said Mace Siegel. “We had a game plan that included winning the Gold Cup. The race was run so slowly it was a travesty. He should have won by six lengths.”

Excerpt:

“I believe this is the best horse I’ve ever owned,” Siegel stated. “Our goal is to win the Breeders’ Cup Classic (gr. I), and to do that you have to think you can beat Zenyatta. I don’t think we’ll know that unless he runs on dirt. If Rick Dutrow thinks he can get him to the Breeders’ Cup and win it, we’ll go. If not, we’ll continue on with him and have some fun later.”
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'd say Mace is/was a little pissed about the Gold Cup. ;)

[WinterTriangle]

Bring on Rachel vs Rail Trip!

If we're talking BCC, at 1-1/4 mile, I would have to see who else was in the race. Seriously.


Guess that ends the Zenyatta vs Rail Trip comparisons


Awesome Gem ran 7th to Zenyatta in last year's BCC. Now that the almost 7 year old Awesome Gem beat Rail Trip, that comparison might be over, although RT is only 5, never been off the board, and 5 is prime for a nice racehorse in a classic race, IMHO.

I wish Dutrow luck. RT is a nice racehorse.


Wonder if RT or any of those, will be in the BCC? This early, I like to look at pedigree stuff. His stamina index (0.95) seems a tad high (lower is better)....average is about 0.69-0.80 (I'm basing this on Curlin, Ghostzapper, Tiznow, Cigar, St. Liam, Invasor, AP Indy, etc.) For comparison, Invasor's was 0.41. Cigar's was 0.42. St. Liam 0.65. Zenyatta's is about 0.62. Rachel's is 0.97 about same as Gio Ponti. (Curlin is about 0.80 Goldikova is 0.78---theirs seems to fall in the average.) Just more #'s to play around with. :) Stamina indexes worked pretty well in the TC races, but of course I used a point system which considered a slew of other stuff. I'll have to go back and pin point and report back closer to BCC time.

[lamboguy]

she must have been sick of all the drugs in california and running about once in every 5 months. dutrow going to do the best he can with that horse, take the horse off all those stupid drugs that doesn't help to begin with.

these owners know this game and who are pretenders and who the contenders are, dick dutrow has heart. :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

[PurplePower]

she must have been sick of all the drugs in california and running about once in every 5 months. dutrow going to do the best he can with that horse, take the horse off all those stupid drugs that doesn't help to begin with.

these owners know this game and who are pretenders and who the contenders are, dick dutrow has heart. :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:Holy Mackerel Lambo! They just sent their horse to a trainer that went on TV (prior to the 2008 Derby) and said something like "They all get a steroid shot on the 15th of the month. I don't know what it does or if it does them any good but the veterinarian suggested we do it, so we do" --And he also stated that he gave all of his runners clenbuterol, etc. And, you say they are "sick of all the drugs in California"? California has same 96 hour withdrawal time requirement for Clenbuterol as New York. I don't think they sent their horse to a trainer because he uses LESS drugs!! Holy Mackerel! :eek:

[joanied]

That was 2008...a lot has changed since then, especially concerning steroids. The Mace's are very good people...I seriously doubt they'd allow any hanky panky with their horses.
Like him or not, Dutrow can train a horse, and he loves them too...he's a horseman, IMO...he won the Classic with St. Liam...so he knows the drill. I see no problem with this move...and you sure can't blame the Mace's for wanting to get off that crap they run on out there.

[lamboguy]

Holy Mackerel Lambo! They just sent their horse to a trainer that went on TV (prior to the 2008 Derby) and said something like "They all get a steroid shot on the 15th of the month. I don't know what it does or if it does them any good but the veterinarian suggested we do it, so we do" --And he also stated that he gave all of his runners clenbuterol, etc. And, you say they are "sick of all the drugs in California"? California has same 96 hour withdrawal time requirement for Clenbuterol as New York. I don't think they sent their horse to a trainer because he uses LESS drugs!! Holy Mackerel! :eek:
your key words here are "2008"


this ia 2010 and no steroids any more. dick trains without bute and other drugs unlike the california crews

[Dahoss9698]

Who are the Mace's?

[born2ride]

If we're talking BCC, at 1-1/4 mile, I would have to see who else was in the race. Seriously.





Awesome Gem ran 7th to Zenyatta in last year's BCC. Now that the almost 7 year old Awesome Gem beat Rail Trip, that comparison might be over, although RT is only 5, never been off the board, and 5 is prime for a nice racehorse in a classic race, IMHO.

I wish Dutrow luck. RT is a nice racehorse.


Wonder if RT or any of those, will be in the BCC? This early, I like to look at pedigree stuff. His stamina index (0.95) seems a tad high (lower is better)....average is about 0.69-0.80 (I'm basing this on Curlin, Ghostzapper, Tiznow, Cigar, St. Liam, Invasor, AP Indy, etc.) For comparison, Invasor's was 0.41. Cigar's was 0.42. St. Liam 0.65. Zenyatta's is about 0.62. Rachel's is 0.97 about same as Gio Ponti. (Curlin is about 0.80 Goldikova is 0.78---theirs seems to fall in the average.) Just more #'s to play around with. :) Stamina indexes worked pretty well in the TC races, but of course I used a point system which considered a slew of other stuff. I'll have to go back and pin point and report back closer to BCC time.

How exactly are you calculating your stamina index?

[PaceAdvantage]

Who are the Mace's?Forget it, she's rolling.

[PurplePower]

your key words here are "2008"


this ia 2010 and no steroids any more. dick trains without bute and other drugs unlike the california crews

What is your evidence that Dick trains without bute? Trainers in New York can give bute up to 24 hours before post time and in California they cannot give bute within 48 hours. Are you basing your opinion on fact that they do not show bute in the racing form for horses running in New York? If so, then its time to learn that whether bute is listed in the racing form is a decision of the state and not of the DRF. Almost all horses in Louisiana race with up to 5 mcg percent of bute in their system and yet they have never listed bute in the DRF of horses racing in La.

Look at the rules of racing for New York and you will find that trainers iin New York can race (legally) with the same drugs in their system as can the horses in California. Oh, and California restricted use of steroids before New York made theirs official.

And, Joanied, I agree that Dick can train a top class horse. I even like his candor and honesty when he speaks. I have no problem with the Siegel's sending RT to him (in fact, I thought they would do that even if he won the Gold Cup to give him a dirt out before the BC classic). However, to state (as Lambo did) that Dick is not using bute or that the horses in New York are racing with less drugs in their system than those in California is not supported by the respective rules of racing.

[jamey1977]

Rail Trip Moves To Dutrow Barn | BloodHorse.com
http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/57892/rail-trip-moves-to-dutrow-barn

Excerpt:

“It’s simple,” said Mace Siegel. “We had a game plan that included winning the Gold Cup. The race was run so slowly it was a travesty. He should have won by six lengths.”

Excerpt:

“I believe this is the best horse I’ve ever owned,” Siegel stated. “Our goal is to win the Breeders’ Cup Classic (gr. I), and to do that you have to think you can beat Zenyatta. I don’t think we’ll know that unless he runs on dirt. If Rick Dutrow thinks he can get him to the Breeders’ Cup and win it, we’ll go. If not, we’ll continue on with him and have some fun later.”
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'd say Mace is/was a little pissed about the Gold Cup. ;) They are pissed. They're like me when my darn favorites would lose for no damn reason. Looking at The Beyers. Awesome Gem was really not that far away from Rail Trip in terms of Beyers. Just 2 or 3 Beyers away from Rail Trips High Beyer. A lot of class. The pace was horrendously slow. A slow pace leaves many horses with loads of energy . And Flores and Pedroza will bring The longshots in, or in this case -Overlay. Awesome Gem woke up and all of the chalk players lose. That's why I don't play chalk anymore. LOL

[andymays]

Unless I missed it nobody is bringing up the point about the Breeders' Cup being at Santa Anita the last couple of years on Pro Ride and the impact it had on some good horses coming out here about this time of year. Now things have changed and with the Breeders Cup at Churchill the next couple of years the races on synthetic surfaces in California have become a lott less relevant. Now horses like Rail Trip are taking off to run on dirt. How things change. Ron Ellis has been a synthetic advocate over the last few years. How things change.

The junk was a mistake on so many levels and we are now seeing another flaw in the short term thinking of certain racing officials and racing executives in California. The mighty movers and shakers and their big egos are playing defense now. And not very well.

[lamboguy]

What is your evidence that Dick trains without bute? Trainers in New York can give bute up to 24 hours before post time and in California they cannot give bute within 48 hours. Are you basing your opinion on fact that they do not show bute in the racing form for horses running in New York? If so, then its time to learn that whether bute is listed in the racing form is a decision of the state and not of the DRF. Almost all horses in Louisiana race with up to 5 mcg percent of bute in their system and yet they have never listed bute in the DRF of horses racing in La.

Look at the rules of racing for New York and you will find that trainers iin New York can race (legally) with the same drugs in their system as can the horses in California. Oh, and California restricted use of steroids before New York made theirs official.

And, Joanied, I agree that Dick can train a top class horse. I even like his candor and honesty when he speaks. I have no problem with the Siegel's sending RT to him (in fact, I thought they would do that even if he won the Gold Cup to give him a dirt out before the BC classic). However, to state (as Lambo did) that Dick is not using bute or that the horses in New York are racing with less drugs in their system than those in California is not supported by the respective rules of racing.he is allowed to train with bute, he just chooses not to. even though bute is asperin, the horse feels less pain while training on it, but when they run on full steam injuries can occur.

[the little guy]

What is your evidence that Dick trains without bute? Trainers in New York can give bute up to 24 hours before post time and in California they cannot give bute within 48 hours. Are you basing your opinion on fact that they do not show bute in the racing form for horses running in New York? If so, then its time to learn that whether bute is listed in the racing form is a decision of the state and not of the DRF. Almost all horses in Louisiana race with up to 5 mcg percent of bute in their system and yet they have never listed bute in the DRF of horses racing in La.

Look at the rules of racing for New York and you will find that trainers iin New York can race (legally) with the same drugs in their system as can the horses in California. Oh, and California restricted use of steroids before New York made theirs official.

And, Joanied, I agree that Dick can train a top class horse. I even like his candor and honesty when he speaks. I have no problem with the Siegel's sending RT to him (in fact, I thought they would do that even if he won the Gold Cup to give him a dirt out before the BC classic). However, to state (as Lambo did) that Dick is not using bute or that the horses in New York are racing with less drugs in their system than those in California is not supported by the respective rules of racing.


Rick.

[joanied]

:blush: :blush: :blush: my bad...I really goofed up with the Seigel's names...guess we all can't be as 'perfect' as some think they are here...guess some never make mistakes!!

[Robert Goren]

I can't beleive that anyone thinks this good move for the horse. It may or may not be a good move for the owners. JMO

[Robert Goren]

he is allowed to train with bute, he just chooses not to. even though bute is asperin, the horse feels less pain while training on it, but when they run on full steam injuries can occur. Bute is not Aspirin.

[cj]

she must have been sick of all the drugs in california and running about once in every 5 months. dutrow going to do the best he can with that horse, take the horse off all those stupid drugs that doesn't help to begin with.

these owners know this game and who are pretenders and who the contenders are, dick dutrow has heart. :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

Are you seriously trying to portray Rick Dutrow as some beacon of light in the training business? You have got to be kidding me.

[joanied]

What is your evidence that Dick trains without bute? Trainers in New York can give bute up to 24 hours before post time and in California they cannot give bute within 48 hours. Are you basing your opinion on fact that they do not show bute in the racing form for horses running in New York? If so, then its time to learn that whether bute is listed in the racing form is a decision of the state and not of the DRF. Almost all horses in Louisiana race with up to 5 mcg percent of bute in their system and yet they have never listed bute in the DRF of horses racing in La.

Look at the rules of racing for New York and you will find that trainers iin New York can race (legally) with the same drugs in their system as can the horses in California. Oh, and California restricted use of steroids before New York made theirs official.

And, Joanied, I agree that Dick can train a top class horse. I even like his candor and honesty when he speaks. I have no problem with the Siegel's sending RT to him (in fact, I thought they would do that even if he won the Gold Cup to give him a dirt out before the BC classic). However, to state (as Lambo did) that Dick is not using bute or that the horses in New York are racing with less drugs in their system than those in California is not supported by the respective rules of racing.

I didn't say Dutrow isn't using Bute...never mentioned anything about wether or not he's still using drugs of any kind...I just said that steroids have been banned, and that I beleive the Seigel's (not the Mace's as I foolishly called them in my:blush: hasty post yesterday) wouldn't allow any hanky panky with their horses...and CA. banning before NY did is besides the point...
I don't know what Dutrow is using or not, IMO, he's a great horseman and will do the very best with Rail Trip.
That's it:)

[andymays]

http://www.drf.com/news/article/114751.html

Excerpt:

"The plan was to run in the three races at Hollywood Park, win the Gold Cup, and go on to the Pacific Classic [at Del Mar]," Siegel said. "For whatever reason, that plan went awry, and the horse isn't talking.

"Now, with the goal of running in the Breeders' Cup Classic at Churchill Downs, I want to get him off the synthetic tracks and onto dirt. There has been no decision on how he will get there. That will be up to Rick, and I trust his judgment. He is part of the Siegel team, and this is a team move."

[Dahoss9698]

I can't beleive that anyone thinks this good move for the horse. It may or may not be a good move for the owners. JMO

Depending on what your definition is of "a good move", going to Dutrow will usually ensure some sort of improvement.

[Dahoss9698]

:blush: :blush: :blush: my bad...I really goofed up with the Seigel's names...guess we all can't be as 'perfect' as some think they are here...guess some never make mistakes!!

No we all make mistakes, some more than others. I was genuinely curious who you were talking about. Although it's good to see the pm train has a new battle cry. Choo, choo.

[PurplePower]

he is allowed to train with bute, he just chooses not to. even though bute is asperin, the horse feels less pain while training on it, but when they run on full steam injuries can occur.Rick.Bute is a non-steriod anti-inflammatory that is described as being "like aspirin", but which is more like Ibuprofen if we are using human medicine comparisons. Bute has a half life of 7 hours, so 24 hours post administration it is below it's pharmacological threshold (amount necessary to have its effect). The administration time is being moved back to 48 hours to guarantee that the bute will be having no effect when the horses are given their PRE-RACE veterinary check ( done at a time when the bute may still be above that pharmacological threshold since pre-race exams may be done within 12 to 15 hours post administration of bute if bute is given 24 hours before post time).

From the RMTC website --
Richard E. Dutrow 2/24/10 FL GP $500 Formal King TB phenylbutazone overage (2nd Class 4 violation within 1 year)


So, Rick has made a public statement since February 24 of this year that he no long trains on bute? If so, that is great. What about clenbuterol? Has he also said that he no longer gives any of his horses that drug either?

Remember, it is legal to train on bute. It is legal for a horse to have a small amount of bute in its system when it races (maximum of 5 micrograms percent with the model rule reducing that to 2 micrograms percent once implemented by a jurisdiction). So even this overage violation does not mean that Formal King was "feeling the effect", it just means the ability to detect minute amounts of a drug suggests that, at least as late as February 24 of this year, Rick Dutrow was training Formal King on bute.

[PurplePower]

[i]I didn't say Dutrow isn't using Bute...never mentioned anything about wether or not he's still using drugs of any kind[.........
I don't know what Dutrow is using or not, IMO, he's a great horseman and will do the very best with Rail Trip.
That's it:)
That was reason I put (Lambo said) in that post Joanied. :) I DID misinterpret something you said in that first post however.
and you sure can't blame the Mace's for wanting to get off that crap they run on out there.

I interpreted "crap" as "drugs" rather than "rubber surface". My bad. :blush:

[lamboguy]

Are you seriously trying to portray Rick Dutrow as some beacon of light in the training business? You have got to be kidding me.
compared to the trainers that are out there he is. he gives good care to his horses, doesn't overtap, doesn't highblock. today he is the top footman training horses in america. and he is a super human being. he treats others like they are human beings, he answers phone calls and emails as well.

[Roy C]

If anyone believes "we want to give him a race on dirt" story, you have to be smoking the devils lettuce. I'm sure they would want to pass on a cupcake race like the Pacific Classic in their backyard to try dirt when they could try it after the Pacific Classic and still make the Breeders Cup. There is much more to the story that isn't in your racing publications.

[andymays]

If anyone believes "we want to give him a race on dirt" story, you have to be smoking the devils lettuce. I'm sure they would want to pass on a cupcake race like the Pacific Classic in their backyard to try dirt when they could try it after the Pacific Classic and still make the Breeders Cup. There is much more to the story that isn't in your racing publications.

Atta Boy Roy! :ThmbUp: You got it.

Something else will come out by Saturday.

[cj]

The Hollywood Gold Cup was supposed to be a cupcake race.

[andymays]

The Hollywood Gold Cup was supposed to be a cupcake race.


Slowest since 1938.

Right now Del Mar is begging the Mosses to run Z in the Pacific Classic.

Do you think he'll take a chance on it? :D

[cj]

Slowest since 1938.

Right now Del Mar is begging the Mosses to run Z in the Pacific Classic.

Do you think he'll take a chance on it? :D

I can't imagine why they wouldn't. My guess now is the surface excuse will come out.

[andymays]

I can't imagine why they wouldn't. My guess now is the surface excuse will come out.

All indications are that this new track superintendant will do a better job than his predecessor but the synthetic material is going on 4 years old. Quite a few barns who would normally ship down there are staying at Hollywood because the surfaces was so bad last year. They start workouts on it Sunday I think. If they have problems with the surface early they could lose quite a few horses that would go east. People are bailing on California on a daily basis. A screwed up surface at Del Mar would throw California into a tailspin worse than the one it's already in.

[andymays]

http://www.drf.com/news/article/114751.html

Excerpt:

"I didn't know anything about this until I got a call a few days ago," said Dutrow on Wednesday. "It's a nice surprise for me. I don't have a plan for him at the moment. I kind of want to get a feel for him, gallop him and see how things go as time goes by. Then we'll pick out a spot."

The Grade 1 Whitney Handicap on Aug. 7 is the first major race for older horses on the main track at Saratoga, but Dutrow said Rail Trip is not being pointed for that race.

"I don't have my mind on the Whitney right now," he said.
Rail Trip has won eight races, including four stakes, and $1,067,790.

[andymays]

All indications are that this new track superintendant will do a better job than his predecessor but the synthetic material is going on 4 years old. Quite a few barns who would normally ship down there are staying at Hollywood because the surfaces was so bad last year. They start workouts on it Sunday I think. If they have problems with the surface early they could lose quite a few horses that would go east. People are bailing on California on a daily basis. A screwed up surface at Del Mar would throw California into a tailspin worse than the one it's already in.


Believe it or not Del Mar contacted me to say that the Trainers are staying at Hollywood because of the cost of shipping and not because they have doubts about the surface. Lets hope the Mr Tedesco gets it right this year.

They should probably advertise their 50 cent Pick 4 here on PA. After all it has a relatively low takeout. ;) Hint Hint

[statepierback]

One word comment for this move. Polycrap!

[joanied]

That was reason I put (Lambo said) in that post Joanied. :) I DID misinterpret something you said in that first post however.


I interpreted "crap" as "drugs" rather than "rubber surface". My bad. :blush:

No problemo, Purple Power:)

[joanied]

I can't imagine why they wouldn't. My guess now is the surface excuse will come out.

Hasn't Sherriff's said a few times that he really doesn't like the Del Mar surface?

[cj]

Hasn't Sherriff's said a few times that he really doesn't like the Del Mar surface?

Well, yes, but after her last race he mentioned her next race would probably be at Delmar (Clement Hirsch?), "depending on the surface".

[andymays]

http://www.nctimes.com/app/blogs/wp/?cat=278

Excerpt:

Did you catch this?

Who knew that a bad ride by a jockey could cost a trainer a horse that he helped the owners earn more than $1 million with?

[Kimsus]

The title of this thread has as much impact as something between the lines of Quality Road moving to the Pletcher barn or Dollar Bill moving to the Frankel barn.

[Fager Fan]

http://www.nctimes.com/app/blogs/wp/?cat=278

Excerpt:

Did you catch this?

Who knew that a bad ride by a jockey could cost a trainer a horse that he helped the owners earn more than $1 million with?

Another way to look at it is that the owners sent a trainer a horse that gave the trainer over $100,000.

[andymays]

The title of this thread has as much impact as something between the lines of Quality Road moving to the Pletcher barn or Dollar Bill moving to the Frankel barn.


It's a much bigger deal than you're making it out to be.

You have:

A really bad ride in a grade 1 race.

A decision made by the owners out of anger and disbelief that their horse didn't win the gold cup. It was an impulsive decision. They were pissed off.

A decision made to race on dirt. There is no dirt in California at the major tracks. With the Breeders Cup at Churchill this year and in 2012 it makes racing out here on synthetics less relevant. When Santa Anita/Pro Ride had the Breeders Cup several horses would ship out to give it a try. If you remember last year there were some short fields in some big races back east because several horses shipped out here to try the junk.

Another owner shifting some horses out of California. You many not think it's a big deal but to Del Mar it's a really big deal.

This story has a little bit of everything in it so although you may not see the story behind the story many of us do see it.

[Kimsus]

It's a much bigger deal than you're making it out to be.

You have:

A really bad ride in a grade 1 race.

A decision made by the owners out of anger and disbelief that their horse didn't win the gold cup. It was an impulsive decision.

A decision made to race on dirt. There is no dirt in California at the major tracks. With the Breeders Cup at Churchill this year and in 2012 it makes racing out here on synthetics less relevant. When Santa Anita/Pro Ride had the Breeders Cup several horses would ship out to give it a try. If you remember last year there were some short fields in some big races back east because several horses shipped out here to try the junk.

Another owner shifting some horses out of California. You many not think it's a big deal but to Del Mar it's a really big deal.

This story has a little bit of everything in it so although you may not see the story behind the story many of us do see it.

I like the synth to dirt angle, played it often enough to know it yields good payouts. I'm not sure if he will move up, and again I think the bad ride in the Cup is being overstated abit. I think my post is pretty accurate he could move up alot or he can stay where he is. All in all I think Ellis has done a good job with him, normally a move to Dutrow would be a big move up, I don't think it is in this case. It's a small upgrade but your guess is as good as mine, I for one don't expect a Cigar like move up with this move.

[andymays]

I like the synth to dirt angle, played it often enough to know it yields good payouts. I'm not sure if he will move up, and again I think the bad ride in the Cup is being overstated abit. I think my post is pretty accurate he could move up alot or he can stay where he is. All in all I think Ellis has done a good job with him, normally a move to Dutrow would be a big move up, I don't think it is in this case. It's a small upgrade but your guess is as good as mine, I for one don't expect a Cigar like move up with this move.

Ellis is a fine trainer but many of his horses have a history of underachieving in the big races. It was the slowest Gold Cup since 1938. Bejarano choked Rail Trip down into an ultra slow pace. It was an incompetent ride. A jockey of his caliber is supposed to be able to judge a pace a little better than that. According to all the quotes the plan was to go to the Pacific Classic. The ride changed all that and cost Ellis a nice horse.

Rail Trip has a style that fits the profile of horses that will move up on dirt.

[Kimsus]

Ellis is a fine trainer but many of his horses have a history of underachieving in the big races. It was the slowest Gold Cup since 1938. Bejarano choked Rail Trip down into an ultra slow pace. It was an incompetent ride. A jockey of his caliber is supposed to be able to judge a pace a little better than that. According to all the quotes the plan was to go to the Pacific Classic. The ride changed all that and cost Ellis a nice horse.

Rail Trip has a style that fits the profile of horses that will move up on dirt.

He had every chance to win in the stretch, I don't think his optimal dist is at 1 1/4. I don't want to rehash the whole ride thing again, time to move on! I think my opinion on that is on here in some thread anyway. It was a pretty unimpressive race all things considered. He was a overrated horse going into the race and I think that will show once he steps up in competition. He's a nice horse that will win his share of Grade 2 and 3 races, but he's probably a notch below the best.

[Hedevar]

It is clear that this move was not planned prior to the Gold Cup and was made on the spur of the moment out of anger. Rail Trip could have gone in the Pacific Classic and still had time to go east and get some dirt experience prior to the BCC. Clearly just changing jockeys was not enough for the Siegels.

I still can't get by Dutrow's past and feel Ellis got a raw deal. He got the best jockey available and wasn't riding the horse. The ride was amateurish at best.

[Kimsus]

It's a much bigger deal than you're making it out to be.


Another owner shifting some horses out of California. You many not think it's a big deal but to Del Mar it's a really big deal.

This story has a little bit of everything in it so although you may not see the story behind the story many of us do see it.

BTW, I think the move may have more to do with finding out if he may be a Classic possibility, I wouldn't see this as a horse leaving for greener pastures.

[andymays]

BTW, I think the move may have more to do with finding out if he may be a Classic possibility, I wouldn't see this as a horse leaving for greener pastures.

None of the quotes or articles indicate that the move to Dutrow was planned to find out if he was a Classic possibility. Even Dutrow said he didn't expect to get the horse and learned of it a few days ago.

[Hedevar]

Jump Start, Rail Trip's sire, broke down in the BC Juvenile and never ran further than 8.5f nor raced around two turns. Given that he never started beyond his 2yo season, I think it's fair to say he didn't have a chance to display any stamina.

However, being by A.P. Indy out of a well-bred Storm Cat mare certainly suggests classic distances would have been in his scope.

Furthermore, Rail Trip himself is now 1-1-1 from 3 starts at 10f, all in Grade 1 events, with both defeats being by less than a length.

Spalding No's facts certainly establish that a mile and a quarter has not been a problem on artificial surfaces.

[Stevie Belmont]

You won't see RA in this year's Woodward.



I'm crossing my fingers the Woodward could contain Quality Road, Blame, Rachel Alexandra and Rail Trip; and quite possibly I Want Revenge third off a layoff.

[andymays]

Ellis shocked by Rail Trip's move east
http://www.pasadenastarnews.com/sports/ci_15529225

Excerpt:

Ellis wasn't surprised. "Shocked would be a better word," he said.

Excerpt:

the 50-year-old Arcadia resident said. "It's a big blow, really. Those kind of horses don't come along very often. I thought we were doing pretty well with him. I didn't ride him the other day, so it's hard for me to understand."

Rafael Bejarano, one of the best jockeys on the planet, rode Rail Trip in the Gold Cup and took a lot of heat afterward for having the horse four-wide and in the middle of the pack through painfully slow fractions of 25.82, 50.95 and 1:15.12 for the 1 1/4-mile race.

"He came by the next day and apologized, told me he totally blew it," Ellis said of Bejarano, embroiled in a tight battle with Joel Rosario for the Hollywood Park riding title. "And I don't think anybody would dispute that, going (25.82) with a horse that's capable of running 1:07 for six furlongs."

Read more:

http://www.pasadenastarnews.com/sports/ci_15529225#ixzz0tqUyj8F6
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I guess we've heard from just about everyone connected with the story now. Some of us got it right about the ride from the get go. ;)

[andymays]

Camp blindsided by Rail Trip's departure

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/horse/columns/story?columnist=plonk_jeremy&id=5384035

Excerpt:

"This was not in the works, I can assure you," Samantha Siegel said in an exclusive interview Wednesday. "I left Saturday night on the red-eye for the sales in Kentucky. On Monday, Mace decided to move Rail Trip east. When I found out about it, it was a done deal. This is not a usual event. I'll blame it on being out of town. He made up his mind. He pays the bills. He writes the checks. Ron didn't know about it ahead of time, and neither did I."

"We just both got a call on Monday from Mace and it was over," Ellis said Thursday. "I always confer with Samantha on a daily basis and have a once-a-month meeting with Mace to go over the stable."

Excerpt:

A knee-jerk reaction to the Hollywood Gold Cup loss has little or no merit to any objective handicapper or observer. Rail Trip was taken too far off a slow pace in the 1¼-mile race, which ran a horrendously sluggish 1:15.12 split time for the first six furlongs. Most have pinned the loss on jockey Rafael Bejarano, including the rider himself.

"Rafael came by the barn the next morning and said, 'I really blew it ,' and that was the day before I even got the call from Mace," Ellis said. "He's got natural speed. He could have been 10 in front with as slow as they were going in the Gold Cup. I know the horse well enough that I truly think he was confused to be galloping along that slow. He never got any adrenaline flowing and pulled himself up when he made the lead like he thought it was a workout. He never got mentally sharp enough to do his best. Then he was four or five wide and didn't see the other horse come up on the inside."

Excerpt:

Samantha Siegel also expressed disappointment with Bejarano's ride.

"Unfortunately, I am not sure what Rafael was thinking," she said. "I have not spoken to him since the race, but I know he did come by Ron's barn the next morning and apologized. The horse ran an incredible race. It was an incredible effort to be that far back, that wide, and actually make the lead and fight on like he did. He should have won; no doubt about it. But you can't please all the people all the time."

Excerpt:

"He wasn't my jockey," Ellis said . "I asked them who they wanted to ride at the beginning of the year, and I honestly didn't think it mattered one way or another. Jose Valdivia did a great job when he rode him last year. It didn't matter to me. Rafael wasn't my rider, but I was happy to get him, don't get me wrong. He's the leading rider in California. But it wasn't my decision then. That makes it even more frustrating for me, because it wasn't my deal."

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/horse/columns/story?columnist=plonk_jeremy&id=5384035
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This article had so much good information in it maybe it should have it's own thread.

Hats off the Jeremy Plonk for the best article on the subject. :ThmbUp:

[foregoforever]

http://www.whittierdailynews.com/sports/ci_15529225

Rail Trip has raced exclusively on synthetic tracks during his career, but there's no doubt in Ellis' mind that he'll adapt to dirt, which is why he wanted to keep him home until about a month before the Breeders' Cup.

"We're only talking about the Midwest, we're not talking about the East Coast," Ellis said of the Breeders' Cup. "I'm sure Churchill Downs is going to have some sort of prep before the Breeders' Cup, usually about a month before."
Ron has a lot to learn about the Kentucky racing calendar.

[sonnyp]

imho, "mr. mace" will find that sending this "very nice" horse east at this time of year will give him a level of competition that will be all that he can handle.

it's been stated the owner feels this is the best he's ever had. the competition is lined up and waiting and not limited to the depleted "same old" pool he would have been facing in california.

[Fager Fan]

I guess we've heard from just about everyone connected with the story now. Some of us got it right about the ride from the get go. ;)

Andy, I've got a question for you.

What's the scenario one most wants to see with a frontrunner? Isn't it going to the front and slowing the pace down as much as the horse will allow, reserving his energy so that he has plenty when the real running starts and hopefully the others can't run him down?

So wouldn't you be thrilled as the backer of this horse to see those fractions had he been on the lead, running comfortably?

Who's to say the horse would've won had he run a faster pace? Because despite running perfectly comfortably at a slower pace, he still didn't have enough left to beat the winner.

The problem with your argument and Ellis' argument and everyone's argument about the ride on this horse is that the horse was perfectly comfortable at that pace. He didn't fight his rider, expending precious energy, causing him to lose. He just wasn't good enough on this day.

[Fager Fan]

http://www.whittierdailynews.com/sports/ci_15529225


Ron has a lot to learn about the Kentucky racing calendar.

That was an incredibly ignorant thing for a trainer to say. How can one be involved deeply in racing, even as a commentator on a racing channel which telecasts these races, and not be familiar with the racing calendar, including the Ky racing calendar, for a Classic hopeful? How can he not know that no one ever preps at Churchill for the BC because they're not open, that Keeneland's running? And has he ever heard of the Jockey Club Gold Cup?

[andymays]

Andy, I've got a question for you.

What's the scenario one most wants to see with a frontrunner? Isn't it going to the front and slowing the pace down as much as the horse will allow, reserving his energy so that he has plenty when the real running starts and hopefully the others can't run him down?

So wouldn't you be thrilled as the backer of this horse to see those fractions had he been on the lead, running comfortably?

Who's to say the horse would've won had he run a faster pace? Because despite running perfectly comfortably at a slower pace, he still didn't have enough left to beat the winner.

The problem with your argument and Ellis' argument and everyone's argument about the ride on this horse is that the horse was perfectly comfortable at that pace. He didn't fight his rider, expending precious energy, causing him to lose. He just wasn't good enough on this day.

He wasn't close to running perfectly comfortably. It was one of the worst rides I've ever seen in a grade 1 race. Bejarano totally misjudged the pace and there was no reason for it. When the horse just inside him got left at the gate (Tres Borachos) and you know Compari is gonna go you would want to be right on his neck. He should have galloped by Compari on the backstretch and won for fun. Instead he choked him down. The horse didn't know what to do.


http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/horse/columns/story?columnist=plonk_jeremy&id=5384035

Excerpt:

"Rafael came by the barn the next morning and said, 'I really blew it ,' and that was the day before I even got the call from Mace," Ellis said. "He's got natural speed. He could have been 10 in front with as slow as they were going in the Gold Cup. I know the horse well enough that I truly think he was confused to be galloping along that slow . He never got any adrenaline flowing and pulled himself up when he made the lead like he thought it was a workout. He never got mentally sharp enough to do his best. Then he was four or five wide and didn't see the other horse come up on the inside."

[Fager Fan]

He wasn't close to running perfectly comfortably. It was one of the worst rides I've ever seen in a grade 1 race. Bejarano totally misjudged the pace and there was no reason for it. When the horse just inside him got left at the gate (Tres Borachos) and you know Compari is gonna go you would want to be right on his neck. He should have galloped by Compari on the backstretch and won for fun. Instead he choked him down. The horse didn't know what to do.


http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/horse/columns/story?columnist=plonk_jeremy&id=5384035

Excerpt:

"Rafael came by the barn the next morning and said, 'I really blew it ,' and that was the day before I even got the call from Mace," Ellis said. "He's got natural speed. He could have been 10 in front with as slow as they were going in the Gold Cup. I know the horse well enough that I truly think he was confused to be galloping along that slow . He never got any adrenaline flowing and pulled himself up when he made the lead like he thought it was a workout. He never got mentally sharp enough to do his best. Then he was four or five wide and didn't see the other horse come up on the inside."

You need to watch it again. The horse was perfectly comfortable. Even Ellis stated that he was (if anyone needs it confirmed by someone else).

[andymays]

You need to watch it again. The horse was perfectly comfortable. Even Ellis stated that he was.


I just highlighted a section of the article where Ellis is quoted as saying he was confused to be galloping on that slow.

[Fager Fan]

I just highlighted a section of the article where Ellis is quoted as saying he was confused to be galloping on that slow.

I would challenge Ellis' equine mind-reading abilities. I do trust that he can see if the horse was running comfortably or not though:

---------------------------

Ellis has trained Rail Trip since the son of Jump Start hit the track at 2. Ellis has turned what was once a speed ball into a horse that can rate off the lead and save his best running for the stretch.

"That's the kind of horse that, as a trainer, helps you get up early every day of the week," Ellis said. "I mean, I invested three years of time into that horse. We've worked hard to get him to relax to the point he's a push-button horse now.

"That was probably one of the problems (in the Gold Cup). When Rafael kind of throttled him down, (Rail Trip) didn't fight him, he just throttled down. It's taken us three years to get to that point."

Read more: HORSE RACING COLUMN: Ellis shocked by Rail Trip's move east - Whittier Daily News http://www.whittierdailynews.com/sports/ci_15529225#ixzz0ttoInvQx

[bellesforever]

Actually bute is like a heavy duty aspirin..anti-inflammatory.Given in small doses after racing can be helpful..like anything too much is just bad.

[bellesforever]

Andy, I've got a question for you.

What's the scenario one most wants to see with a frontrunner? Isn't it going to the front and slowing the pace down as much as the horse will allow, reserving his energy so that he has plenty when the real running starts and hopefully the others can't run him down?

So wouldn't you be thrilled as the backer of this horse to see those fractions had he been on the lead, running comfortably?

Who's to say the horse would've won had he run a faster pace? Because despite running perfectly comfortably at a slower pace, he still didn't have enough left to beat the winner.

The problem with your argument and Ellis' argument and everyone's argument about the ride on this horse is that the horse was perfectly comfortable at that pace. He didn't fight his rider, expending precious energy, causing him to lose. He just wasn't good enough on this day.
Awesome Gem beat him..it isn't like A.G. isn't always right up there cause he always is.Rail Trip did look happy..from what i understand he has feet problems..i wonder how hard real dirt will affect his training here on the east coast?Ellis wasn't riding him if the owners want to throw out the blame game..This could be a big mistake.It might have been better to train him on the soft stuff till closer to the breeders cup.

[JustRalph]

I am interested to see how he runs on dirt. What happens if he can't run on dirt? Do they bring him back to Ellis in Ca? If so they look like fools.

[andymays]

Ron Ellis coming up on the Roger Stein show . 7-18-2010

Live show. http://www.am830klaa.com/index.htm

archived show up about 10:00 am pst.

http://www.rogerstein.com/radio/archive2.asp

[andymays]

Ron Ellis coming up on the Roger Stein show . 7-18-2010

Live show. http://www.am830klaa.com/index.htm

archived show up about 10:00 am pst.

http://www.rogerstein.com/radio/archive2.asp


Ellis says it was one of the worst rides ever.

He sounded pretty devastated.

Ellis says he was promised 10% of the horses earnings this year by Mace even though he's not the trainer of record.

[Fager Fan]

Ellis is sounding like a crybaby.

[andymays]

Ellis is sounding like a crybaby.
Did you listen to the interview? There were a couple of times I thought he was gonna cry.

It was a bad deal for him.

[Fager Fan]

Did you listen to the interview? There were a couple of times I thought he was gonna cry.

It was a bad deal for him.

It was a good deal for him that he ever had the horse to start with. He was paid to do a job, and paid generously considering this was a good horse who provided him with a 6-figure commission. Now he's promised 10% even though he's not the person paid to do the job anymore which is more than generous. If Ellis or any other trainer doesn't want outside owners' horses, then they're free to go buy and train their own horses. Note how few do. That's because it's extremely expensive and risky, and trainers know they're better off and can be made wealthy by letting owers take on all the expense and risk.

[andymays]

It was a good deal for him that he ever had the horse to start with. He was paid to do a job, and paid generously considering this was a good horse who provided him with a 6-figure commission. Now he's promised 10% even though he's not the person paid to do the job anymore which is more than generous. If Ellis or any other trainer doesn't want outside owners' horses, then they're free to go buy and train their own horses. Note how few do. That's because it's extremely expensive and risky, and trainers know they're better off and can be made wealthy by letting owers take on all the expense and risk.
Did you listen to the interview?

[Fager Fan]

Did you listen to the interview?

No, and I don't understand why you ask. Ellis has been quoted extensively about this in at least 2 articles and now you report that he's on Stein's show. Is there something he said that's supposed to make me change my mind?

[andymays]

No, and I don't understand why you ask. Ellis has been quoted extensively about this in at least 2 articles and now you report that he's on Stein's show. Is there something he said that's supposed to make me change my mind?


It's worth listening to. Yes, an owner has the right to do whatever they want but in this case the relationhip between the owner(s) and Ellis is a little unique. If Samantha had been around the switch wouldn't have happened. It was a unique circumstance.

http://www.rogerstein.com/radio/archive2.asp

The archived show is up for today and I think Ellis comes on about 20 minutes past the hour give or take a few minutes.

[Fager Fan]

It's worth listening to. Yes, an owner has the right to do whatever they want but in this case the relationhip between the owner(s) and Ellis is a little unique. If Samantha had been around the switch wouldn't have happened. It was a unique circumstance.

http://www.rogerstein.com/radio/archive2.asp

The archived show is up for today and I think Ellis comes on about 20 minutes past the hour give or take a few minutes.

I don't see what Samantha's opinion has to do with anything. Obviously, what happened proves who pays the bills and is ultimately in charge. What's unique about this relationship? Was Ellis not paid for his training of RT or any of the Jay Em Ess horses?

[andymays]

I don't see what Samantha's opinion has to do with anything. Obviously, what happened proves who pays the bills and is ultimately in charge. What's unique about this relationship? Was Ellis not paid for his training of RT or any of the Jay Em Ess horses?


I have no idea why you're arguing with me. The interview is up. If you don't want to listen that's fine by me. We'll agree to disagree on certain points.

[Fager Fan]

I have no idea why you're arguing with me. The interview is up. If you don't want to listen that's fine by me. We'll agree to disagree on certain points.

Ok, I listened, and don't think that this helped Ellis at all. I don't think that Siegel is going to be very happy that he was made out to be senile, with Ellis hinting at it, and then Stein saying it directly without Ellis interjecting or defending Siegel.

[andymays]

Ok, I listened, and don't think that this helped Ellis at all. I don't think that Siegel is going to be very happy that he was made out to be senile, with Ellis hinting at it, and then Stein saying it directly without Ellis interjecting or defending Siegel.


I thought the same thing although most of the radio shows have been bashing Mace for being out of touch with reality.

I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure Rail Trip will improve on dirt and under Dutrow.

[Indulto]

IMO Ellis didn’t hurt himself or insult Siegal. On the contrary, since I didn’t read elsewhere that Siegal would continue to reward hin for his efforts, it appears Ellis actually helped Siegal. If anything Ellis gave racing fans a sense of the emotional connection between trainer and horse. There’s nothing embarrassing about that, either.

[andymays]

IMO Ellis didn’t hurt himself or insult Siegal. On the contrary, since I didn’t read elsewhere that Siegal would continue to reward hin for his efforts, it appears Ellis actually helped Siegal. If anything Ellis gave racing fans a sense of the emotional connection between trainer and horse. There’s nothing embarrassing about that, either.


I don't think he insulted him directly but if Mace is a crazy as many people seem to think he might take it that way. Moving the horse impulsively wasn't rational so he might be implulsive enough to take all his horses after the interview and go back on his 10% deal. I have a feeling he will go back on the 10% anyway but I could be wrong. Time will tell.

[Robert Fischer]

run away and hide from Awesome Gem :p

[Fager Fan]

IMO Ellis didn’t hurt himself or insult Siegal. On the contrary, since I didn’t read elsewhere that Siegal would continue to reward hin for his efforts, it appears Ellis actually helped Siegal. If anything Ellis gave racing fans a sense of the emotional connection between trainer and horse. There’s nothing embarrassing about that, either.

This is about money and fame, not emotions. Do we read a spate of articles about how upset Ellis is when he loses a claimer? Even Ellis admits the 10% (and the more that 10% ends up the better) will take the sting out of what happened.

[ronsmac]

I don't know who you are, but you are extremely naive. Dutrow's reputation from his Dad on down speaks for itself.

[Fager Fan]

I don't know who you are, but you are extremely naive. Dutrow's reputation from his Dad on down speaks for itself.

Who are you talking to? We were talking about Ellis.

[Indulto]

This is about money and fame, not emotions. Do we read a spate of articles about how upset Ellis is when he loses a claimer? Even Ellis admits the 10% (and the more that 10% ends up the better) will take the sting out of what happened.Whenever a championship caliber horse is involved, of course money and fame are part of the equation. What made this story newsworthy is that the trainer lost the horse despite the fact that it was "unmistakably" a mistake by the jockey selected by the owners themselves that precipitated the owner's action. The horse itself couldn't have been better conditioned (unless, perhaps, it had been trained for maximum acceleration after minimum exertion most of the way).

The likelihood that the next trainer will "improve" this horse is low. Ironically, when Big Brown blew the Belmont, big-time, Dutrow still kept the horse. You can knock Ellis all you want, but doing so won't elevate your own stature.

I wonder if Siegal got a phone call sifter the race from a trusted party suggesting that the horse would do better on dirt. ;)

That said, an owner has an obligation to himself to do what HE (or SHE) thinks is in HIS best interests and not second-guess himself. Siegal has multiple talented trainers and if he feels he's likely to do better with the horse with the other guy, he’s got to go with his gut.

IMO any "betrayal" here doesn't come close to that involving Mine That Bird's connections. To me that reeked of jealousy at Wooley's popularity and coverage in the press compared with that of the owners.

[classhandicapper]

I've been looking forward to Rail Trip running on dirt for the simple reason that I think he's been underrated because of the typical depressed synthetic figures and generally dismissive attitude about CA racing by handicappers in the east.

I have no idea if he will like dirt, but if he does, IMO he'll put up a new top eventually (if not immediately).

I'm a little disappointed about the move into Dutrow's barn because if he runs a lot faster, the debate won't be limited to figure methodology and surface preference. It will also include whether Dutrow moved him up.

I thought he ran well in his loss.

He had a much rougher trip than the winner on a surface that tends to bring them together and also spotted some weight.

[Hanover1]

Some will say it was a knee jerk reaction to a big loss-happens from time to time. Others will point to the fact that owners felt it was time to move east and run on the dirt, without previous trainer having to satellite his every move. I lean towards the middle here, probably a hint of truth to both angles here.......