How do the people who do it.... Do it.

[Canadian]

As I dream of making my millions being a pro handicapper I am asking the question.

How do people who come out ahead betting the horses manage to do it?

What qualities do they share and how do they differ?

For example. I would imagine they are all disiplined. But do they all bet only a select few races a card and make their money when they really feel they got an edge or do some bet almost every race and still manage to come out ahead?

How do they do it.

[acorn54]

well i don't know how "they" do it. in my35 years of horseplaying i have never come across any of those people that make a consistent income year in year out from gambling on the horses. sure i know quite a few that have had a good year once in awhile from some big score they made on a big triple but they never quit their day job.
anyway getting rich, period, is a hard thing to do, and you may make some money from the horses but getting rich from them, i don't know.

[Dave Schwartz]

The guys I know first hand have taken one of three approaches:

1. Rebate players - Lots of profit, lots of infrastructure (i.e. employees or partners), big start up investment ($200k+), wager several $3m to $30m per year.

2. Volume Players - Lots of races (50+ per day), most play for medium-to-large hits. (Profit range of $100k to $600k.)

3. Specialists - One distance, or type of race, fewer plays - small profit ($50k to $150k)

One thing they all had in common is that they set out to be professional players.

[Robert Fischer]

They are masters of virtue and insight as it relates to playing horses.

They are the very "wise" horseplayers. They are highly skilled, intelligent, and generally apply themselves with intensity.


If the terms virtue and insight are not familiar, look them up. Virtue is similar to what many refer to as "wagering", "wagering ability", "money management", "discipline", "selectivity" etc... while Insight represents "handicapping" "the selection process" "knowing more about the horses" "seeing the inner-workings of the race", although both words have broader meanings as well.


- The Art Of Being Lucky -
There are rules of luck and the wise do not leave it all to chance. Luck can be assisted by care. Some content themselves with placing themselves confidently at the gate of fortune, waiting till she opens it. Others do better, and press forward and profit by their clever boldness, reaching the goddess and wining her favor on the wings of their virtue and valor. But a true philosophy has no other umpire than virtue and insight - for there is no good or bad luck except wisdom and foolishness.
-- Balthasar Gracián

[DRIVEWAY]

Information advantages.

It's not what you know but who you know. Become friends with Vets, jockey agents and trainers and watch your profits roll in.

[Stillriledup]

As I dream of making my millions being a pro handicapper I am asking the question.

How do people who come out ahead betting the horses manage to do it?

What qualities do they share and how do they differ?

For example. I would imagine they are all disiplined. But do they all bet only a select few races a card and make their money when they really feel they got an edge or do some bet almost every race and still manage to come out ahead?

How do they do it.


The reason being winning horseplayers are so rare is because you need to be a left and a right sided brained person. You have to be great at math, handling money and numbers but you also have to be able to 'paint a picture' and be a visionary. You need to be great at both.

Another problem most people face is that you have to have accumulated a decent sized bankroll and at the same time, not have a full time job. So, you would have had to had a good job, earned a bunch of money and then quit that nicely paying job to try to win money betting horses because there's not enough hours in the day to work a full time job and be able to do enough work to make a run as a full time horseplayer.

[Zman179]

One pro who I used to know devoted 80 hours per week...to just the So Cal circuit! He said the money was great but it can be tiring as hell, from being there to watch the workouts, to studying the form/sheets/etc, to being there for the entire card, to watching (and taping) the replays and practically studying them with a magnifying glass.

This would be me if I tried that: :faint:

[cj]

Information advantages.

It's not what you know but who you know. Become friends with Vets, jockey agents and trainers and watch your profits roll in.

Oh please.

[Robert Goren]

I knew a guy who did it in the 60s and 70s. First, he was very very smart. Second, he knew horses. He could have judged show horses at the highest levels. Third, he knew the people working with horses and every stunt any of them had ever pulled. He kept it all in head. Fourth is the same as the first, He was very very smart. A test I took in high school showed me me with a fairly high IQ, but I was not even any place near his league. I think if you don't have an IQ of at least 170, you don't have a chance no matter how much work you put into it. That number maybe on the low side.

[markgoldie]

The reason being winning horseplayers are so rare is because you need to be a left and a right sided brained person. You have to be great at math, handling money and numbers but you also have to be able to 'paint a picture' and be a visionary. You need to be great at both.


This is the best insight I've seen on this subject since I can't remember when. Personally, I'm a right-brainer with enough left-brain to get by. The left-brainers on this forum are truly awesome and in many ways I am a wannabe. But I also have noticed that they get strangled by the numbers because they just can't seem to get outside of them.

[shouldacoulda]

The reason being winning horseplayers are so rare is because you need to be a left and a right sided brained person. You have to be great at math, handling money and numbers but you also have to be able to 'paint a picture' and be a visionary. You need to be great at both.


I remember seeing a study where they took people that were bad at sketching/drawing. They gave them a picture to draw. Then they tried it again but held the picture upside down and the results were much better. It engaged the right side of the brain.
I wonder if reading the past performances upside down would help? :lol:

[comet52]

Why do you need millions? Set a realistic goal. Many people can win some at gambling but piss it away chasing unrealistic scores. Self-discipline and a realistic approach to amounts won, etc. will serve you better than just about any other advice. If you are betting every race you are chasing greedy dreams and will go bust.

Pro gambling is a job, not an escape to a lazy man's paradise. This part is not understood by most of the dreamers who show up inquiring about how to make the dream a reality. It's as hard as saying, "I'm going to be a major league baseball star." Many try, few succeed.

As I dream of making my millions being a pro handicapper I am asking the question.

How do people who come out ahead betting the horses manage to do it?

What qualities do they share and how do they differ?

For example. I would imagine they are all disiplined. But do they all bet only a select few races a card and make their money when they really feel they got an edge or do some bet almost every race and still manage to come out ahead?

How do they do it.

[shouldacoulda]

I knew a guy who did it in the 60s and 70s. First, he was very very smart. Second, he knew horses. He could have judged show horses at the highest levels. Third, he knew the people working with horses and every stunt any of them had ever pulled. He kept it all in head. Fourth is the same as the first, He was very very smart. A test I took in high school showed me me with a fairly high IQ, but I was not even any place near his league. I think if you don't have an IQ of at least 170, you don't have a chance no matter how much work you put into it. That number maybe on the low side.

While being intelligent has it's advantages (from what I hear), I don't think there is a minimum I.Q. needed to be successful at the ponies. Yes you do need analytical abilities and a keen perception to see when the wool is trying to be pulled over your eyes. It's not all numbers. I think that comes from looking at thousands of races. Especially the WTF races. Mickey Mantles father said "great athletes aren't born, they're made". To be successful at anything you need to have a burning desire to succeed. An affinity to what you want to succeed at and the drive to not stray from your ultimate goal.

There is an old Chinese proverb that goes; Keeping one eye on your goal only leaves one eye to find the way.
The "way" IMO is the next race in front of you. Keep both eyes open when analyzing it and don't be afraid to pass on more races than you play. In reality you better pass more than you play. You can't possibly have an edge in every race. My attitude now is if you're consistently playing more than 3-5 races a card you are either a genius or losing.

[46zilzal]

As I dream of making my millions being a pro handicapper I am asking the question.

How do people who come out ahead betting the horses manage to do it?

What qualities do they share and how do they differ?

For example. I would imagine they are all disiplined. But do they all bet only a select few races a card and make their money when they really feel they got an edge or do some bet almost every race and still manage to come out ahead?

How do they do it.
It is akin to asking what is the Tao or the Way.....If you try to articulate it with words the concept it lost. It is a state of mind bearing on the fact like the great philosophers of old ask...What is the essence? IT IS GAMBLING not handicapping.........

It is discovering that same competence gleaned that card players or other sports bettors have always known, HUNT for the overlays and play them to the exclusion of everything else.

[beertapper]

:ThmbUp::ThmbUp:

It is akin to asking what is the Tao or the Way.....If you try to articulate it with words the concept it lost. It is a state of mind bearing on the fact like the great philosophers of old ask...What is the essence? IT IS GAMBLING not handicapping.........

It is discovering that same competence gleaned that card players or other sports bettors have always known, HUNT for the overlays and play them to the exclusion of everything else.

[therussmeister]

They do it by calibrating their opinion.

It is human nature to be over-confident. So much so that people who study these things say even people with low self-esteem are over confident in their abilities. 80% of the people think they are above average.

The reason experienced handicappers lose is they routinely over-estimate their selections chance of winning, so routinely accept odds that are too low.

[Dave Schwartz]

I wonder if reading the past performances upside down would help?

Just turn the monitor upside down.

Let me know how this works out.

[formula_2002]

As I dream of making my millions being a pro handicapper I am asking the question.

How do people who come out ahead betting the horses manage to do it?

What qualities do they share and how do they differ?

For example. I would imagine they are all disiplined. But do they all bet only a select few races a card and make their money when they really feel they got an edge or do some bet almost every race and still manage to come out ahead?

How do they do it.
I'll tell you right after the 6 horse wins Belmonts 3rd race today (07-02-2010), else skip it. :)

[Robert Goren]

I'll tell you right after the 6 horse wins Belmonts 3rd race today (07-02-2010), else skip it. :)Now we will never know.;)

[formula_2002]

I can skip it, the beast came in 2nd as the 9/5 co-favorite to a 5-1 shot :(

[formula_2002]

Now we will never know.;)
the secrete remains mine!! :rolleyes:

[Stillriledup]

This is the best insight I've seen on this subject since I can't remember when. Personally, I'm a right-brainer with enough left-brain to get by. The left-brainers on this forum are truly awesome and in many ways I am a wannabe. But I also have noticed that they get strangled by the numbers because they just can't seem to get outside of them.

Thanks for the compliment.

I think the 'painting the picture' part is really being able to "see the seams on the fastball and be able to count the stitches" as far as breaking down videotape goes. There are so many subtle things you can pick up from tape that are not on paper. I would imagine that there are some long term winners who can just win off paper and be a number cruncher, but i think most great players are video trip players.(i could totally be wrong about this, but i know how important tape is personally) There's a lot more to videotape than just determining who got boxed in and who was very wide on the turn.

There are a lot of ways to win. For me, i'm lost without the replays. I believe that in order to consistently identify overlays, you need to use the tape to 'sniff out' those horses who are really better than what they show on paper. (and also sniffing out the ones who look good on paper but really stink)

[thaskalos]

More than in any other endeavor...I believe that in THIS game...you need a mentor.

There is so much misinformation surrounding this game, that you could stay side-tracked for many years, trying to put the pieces together on your own.

I have learned more from ONE man, than from reading a shelf full of handicapping books...and he was a professional POKER PLAYER!

The secret lies NOT in mastering the game (THIS, you can NEVER do)...but in mastering YOURSELF!

A mentor shows you, BY EXAMPLE, how a "true" professional handles himself in stressful situations...

[Greyfox]

Information advantages.

It's not what you know but who you know. Become friends with Vets, jockey agents and trainers and watch your profits roll in.

:lol: :lol: :rolleyes: 95% of all tips from horsemen are bogus. They are a fast track to the poor house.

[Greyfox]

I think if you don't have an IQ of at least 170, you don't have a chance no matter how much work you put into it. That number maybe on the low side.

170???
Then no one has a chance. The most commonly administered IQ Test in North America is the Wechsler Adult Intelligence Test. I think it tops out at 149.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wechsler_Adult_Intelligence_Scale

[LottaKash]

:lol: :lol: :rolleyes: 95% of all tips from horsemen are bogus. They are a fast track to the poor house.

So true, so true.....

Many years ago when I was a "groom", I went sniffing around for some info....I got 4 or 5 "tips & go's" in the same race as the horse that I was taking to the paddock that nite, and my horse "WON"....He went wire to wire from the rail, and he was a stone cold closer, who never had the lead in any race in the previous two years....

He paid $88 and change, and I didn't have a nickel on him....:D

So much for backstretch tips..

best,

[speed]

Just turn the monitor upside down.

Let me know how this works out.

While trying your advice the monitor slipped through my hands. Needless to say i am posting this while waiting at the emergency room.

[Grits]

The reason being winning horseplayers are so rare is because you need to be a left and a right sided brained person. You have to be great at math, handling money and numbers but you also have to be able to 'paint a picture' and be a visionary. You need to be great at both.

StillRU, in complete agreement with Markg, to me this is one of the most important post, one of the most valued observations I've read by anyone, regardless whether they're pros like Mark and others here, or casual players like myself and the greater population here at PA. Never before have I read this stated in books in as concise, in as true a measure of what each side of our mind contributes to our abilities--whether it involves a hobby a chosen vocation, how we communicate, etc, etc.

Another problem most people face is that you have to have accumulated a decent sized bankroll and at the same time, not have a full time job. So, you would have had to had a good job, earned a bunch of money and then quit that nicely paying job to try to win money betting horses because there's not enough hours in the day to work a full time job and be able to do enough work to make a run as a full time horseplayer.

Of course, depending upon one's circumstance. And too, upon one's age, this is, for some, the less difficult of the two necessary requirements. This being true for the casual player, at least to me. One can possess good skills at handling money, the ability to make it and the discipline to hold on to it. The visionary side has to take into great consideration the investment/risk factor, the short/long term factor, and the ability to have a clear understanding that gambling is multi leveled. Some gambles are greater than others, some have greater risks, some have greater rewards. Some have less of all three.

[Trotman]

A very special person to me was in my mind one of the best horse players and gamblers I have ever been associated with. As time went on he dropped the casinos and played the horses full time as the fresh air of a day at the track where ever he was in Saratoga, Florida or Hollywood Park and DelMar was more living that sitting in a private game at one of Las Vegas better casinos. This man taught me everything in life and in the horses, he taught me my most important lesson of disipline and as well money management but most of all respect. This special person was my Dad who said to me in later years when I asked him what makes him so good and he told me his biggest challenge in life was to wed and be a good father and learn the disipline it took to be a good husband and good father and I think this scared him a bit being a stone cold gambler but he's been gone for so many years now and though I'm not at his level I learned everything he taught me so with that regard I am a winner as he was.

[jamey1977]

Buy The Book " The Six Secrets Of Successful Bettors " The best 32 dollars you will ever spend . Like Dave said. There are different approaches. Bet To Win first. I agree with Dick Mitchell. If you can't turn a profit betting to win. Don't even try playing the exotics. I am a specialist bettor. 60 to 67 Plays a month on the average on one circuit. The South. Calif.. circuit. Plays and circuits must be limited. This can be done. Like the authors said in the book. There is a long , long apprenticeship. Experience is a virtue. Total discipline. Betting with your head not your heart. So what if the 11 to 1 looks like he might go wire to wire. If he does not qualify for a play under your rules. There is no play. None. So many will take 200 bucks and bet to win on this 11 to 1, and when he loses, there's another 7 to 1. and then another 12 to 1. they all lose and the hole gets deeper and deeper. Only official plays adhering to our methods of operation are bet. It takes a long time to learn this discipline. There are players smarter than me and more knowledgeable than me. But if they are smarter, why do I beat them all ?. Because they have no discipline. That really is the tool. Buy the book, read it.

[46zilzal]

Buy The Book " The Six Secrets Of Successful Bettors " The best 32 dollars you will ever spend . Like Dave said. There are different approaches. Bet To Win first. I agree with Dick Mitchell. If you can't turn a profit betting to win. Don't even try playing the exotics.
THAT is not always true as often contenders are so close that it is better to hook them up covering their talents in an exotic rather than straight

[Rutgers]

As I dream of making my millions being a pro handicapper I am asking the question.

How do people who come out ahead betting the horses manage to do it?

What qualities do they share and how do they differ?

For example. I would imagine they are all disiplined. But do they all bet only a select few races a card and make their money when they really feel they got an edge or do some bet almost every race and still manage to come out ahead?

How do they do it.

Two things I noticed about winning players.

1.) They have a much better understanding of horse racing and how it “works” then most.

2.) They spend a lot of time at it.

[markgoldie]

Thanks for the compliment.

I think the 'painting the picture' part is really being able to "see the seams on the fastball and be able to count the stitches" as far as breaking down videotape goes. There are so many subtle things you can pick up from tape that are not on paper. I would imagine that there are some long term winners who can just win off paper and be a number cruncher, but i think most great players are video trip players.(i could totally be wrong about this, but i know how important tape is personally) There's a lot more to videotape than just determining who got boxed in and who was very wide on the turn.

There are a lot of ways to win. For me, i'm lost without the replays. I believe that in order to consistently identify overlays, you need to use the tape to 'sniff out' those horses who are really better than what they show on paper. (and also sniffing out the ones who look good on paper but really stink)
Clearly, videotape analysis is a right-brain function. I can't take advantage of it, however, because I'm not a single or even two-track specialist. I suppose I could be, but in order to keep my rebate schedule in tact, I need lots of action and I doubt one or two tracks could handle it.

However, there is a lot more to right-brain activity than simply the video aspect. You need creativity in many areas. One important one for me is gimmick-ticket construction. Clearly, there is an art to this in that you want the ticket construction to clearly reflect your view of the various possibilities of the event. This not only requires a deep understanding of what the possibilities are, but also it demands a pitch-perfect way to translate that view into an effective ticket-construction approach. Interestingly enough, there are days when you are more creative than others- sort of like the novelist whose inspiration many come and go. And the variations are so complex, that almost no two scenarios can be said to be identical. Sometimes you may use a single spread approach. Other times you may key a horse, or even two with the contenders. And still other times you may create a number of individual tickets, played in various amounts. All of this requires not only an assessment of possibilities, but also a firm grip on the odds' board, since value here may lie not solely in an overlaid win prospect, but overlays in the supporting cast as well. Such overlays can be exploited just as profitably as the win-type overlay. So while you have all the generally-used tools at the ready in your tool-kit, you still must use them on the fly, so to speak. That is, in a time-constrained manner.

Other right-brained activities may relvolve around the unfolding of a card as it progresses. Daily track biases can and do affect results. You must get the "feel" of the day. You can even "psycho-analyze" the jockeys on the card as it unfolds. The jockey who wins a race wire-to-wire will be more likely to push subsequent mounts in the early go. Jockeys who are getting beaten while on the front become more reluctant. "Hot" jockies often get hot because they are having success on the card. And nothing can make a jockey go cold as much as a few races where he burns up chalk.

There are many more areas where right-brained acumen is valuable, but this post is long enough. probably too long as it is.

[Greyfox]

THAT is not always true as often contenders are so close that it is better to hook them up covering their talents in an exotic rather than straight


Agreed. You'll score more often too.:ThmbUp:

[Robert Goren]

170???
Then no one has a chance. The most commonly administered IQ Test in North America is the Wechsler Adult Intelligence Test. I think it tops out at 149.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wechsler_Adult_Intelligence_ScaleI don't know about the Wechsler scale. 4 Standard deviations above average would be 160. That would be would be 1 in 16,000. 5 SD would be 175 or 1 in about 1.7 millions. On second thought 170 might be a little high. But I would not go any lower than 160. That would make about 20,000 people in the US capable of it it. I doubt if that there are 50 people doing it on their own and maybe 10 of them post on this board from time to time. There are teams of peoples who do it which is an entirely different Dynamic. I have played bridge with a person who was up for the Nobel Prize in biology and Roy Landis was in his league when it came to raw smarts.

[miesque]

I would be quite surprised if a majority of truly professional horseplayers did not also have a material investment portfolio either via family wealth or a formal professional career or married to someone with one (boytoys always have some sort of "profession" when asked) especially those who do not have anciliary handicapping related income (aka commentating, books, software, seminars, etc...) providing income diversification (which is a smart move by those who do). The reason being the stress of the downturns in play would be almost untenable and make it easy to trigger a downward spiral. Even if you are making money over the long you need the requisite assets to back you up in a slump otherwise its gotta be quite tough.

[JustRalph]

find me 20 good races to bet a day and I will make some money

With what is out there today....... I don't know how anybody makes any money

[Greyfox]

I don't know about the Wechsler scale. 4 Standard deviations above average would be 160. That would be would be 1 in 16,000. 5 SD would be 175 or 1 in about 1.7 millions. On second thought 170 might be a little high. But I would not go any lower than 160. That would make about 20,000 people in the US capable of it it. I doubt if that there are 50 people doing it on their own and maybe 10 of them post on this board from time to time. There are teams of peoples who do it which is an entirely different Dynamic. I have played bridge with a person who was up for the Nobel Prize in biology and Roy Landis was in his league when it came to raw smarts.

Whatever. The WAIS does not assign IQ's above 149 or so.
If you want to say someone is higher than that, feel free to do so. But you won't have a standardized measure such as the WAIS to support you.
Of course the Standford-Binet scale might go higher but less people are being measured by it.
Besides, what the hell does IQ mean anyways. Essentially it measures ability to do well on an IQ test. Some very bright people may not be picked up by it. Anyone who can score 140 on it is very bright indeed.
Keep in mind though that someone with a 140 IQ can always score 100.
Someone who truly has a 65 IQ can never score 100.
Also, IQ fluctuates. None of us are the same brilliance every day.

For sure you don't need to be a genius to beat the ponies.
Hard work, thinking, keeping records, learning from mistakes, can lead you down the right path.
I would argue that the average person can play this game and do okay.

[shouldacoulda]

Just turn the monitor upside down.

Let me know how this works out.

I don't have to do that. I don't use either side of my brain!

[Greyfox]

I don't have to do that. I don't use either side of my brain!

:ThmbUp: :lol: Yes. Frontal lobes are hugely important.

[Robert Goren]

Whatever. The WAIS does not assign IQ's above 149 or so.
If you want to say someone is higher than that, feel free to do so. But you won't have a standardized measure such as the WAIS to support you.
Of course the Standford-Binet scale might go higher but less people are being measured by it.
Besides, what the hell does IQ mean anyways. Essentially it measures ability to do well on an IQ test. Some very bright people may not be picked up by it. Anyone who can score 140 on it is very bright indeed.
Keep in mind though that someone with a 140 IQ can always score 100.
Someone who truly has a 65 IQ can never score 100.
Also, IQ fluctuates. None of us are the same brilliance every day.

For sure you don't need to be a genius to beat the ponies.
Hard work, thinking, keeping records, learning from mistakes, can lead you down the right path.
I would argue that the average person can play this game and do okay.You are right in that it is hard to measure the ends of the scale. The average person who tries to play this game loses his his shirt. The average horse player is a lot smarter than the average person. I have meet only one person who made his living playing the horses. He died a long time ago. I have meant a lot of people who have tried. They might go a year if they are really lucky. I agree that if some is going to beat this game today, it is going to take a lot of hard work, but I do think you have really, really smart. A guy barely smart enough to get into MENSA might with a lot of work might be able to hold his loses to the takeout over the long run. This is not an easy game. 20 years ago a guy with good computer skills and a understanding of statistics could make some decent cash, but now too many people can do that so that cash cow is gone. Most the people now only make money because of the rebates and they have to have a huge bankroll because their edge is so small. Even those players are few and far between. The guy who scrounges up a few grand and tries make a living playing the ponies has to have a lot more going for him than a couple of years of old racing forms to go over with or without the aid of a computer. JMO

[Robert Goren]

I don't have to do that. I don't use either side of my brain! I have been accused of that. They said I was thinking with another part of my anatomy.;)

[Stillriledup]

You are right in that it is hard to measure the ends of the scale. The average person who tries to play this game loses his his shirt. The average horse player is a lot smarter than the average person. I have meet only one person who made his living playing the horses. He died a long time ago. I have meant a lot of people who have tried. They might go a year if they are really lucky. I agree that if some is going to beat this game today, it is going to take a lot of hard work, but I do think you have really, really smart. A guy barely smart enough to get into MENSA might with a lot of work might be able to hold his loses to the takeout over the long run. This is not an easy game. 20 years ago a guy with good computer skills and a understanding of statistics could make some decent cash, but now too many people can do that so that cash cow is gone. Most the people now only make money because of the rebates and they have to have a huge bankroll because their edge is so small. Even those players are few and far between. The guy who scrounges up a few grand and tries make a living playing the ponies has to have a lot more going for him than a couple of years of old racing forms to go over with or without the aid of a computer. JMO


You're right, its gotten a lot harder. There is less meat on the bone and there is way more quality info floating around for sale. Back 'in the day' there was no Beyer figs, no Rags, No thorograph, no internet, no simulcasting, no DVDs from Jerry Bailey telling you how to win, No TVG where interviews with trainers and jockeys often point to winners (or losers), No clocker reports and the list goes on and on.

[formula_2002]

As I dream of making my millions being a pro handicapper I am asking the question.

How do people who come out ahead betting the horses manage to do it?

What qualities do they share and how do they differ?

For example. I would imagine they are all disiplined. But do they all bet only a select few races a card and make their money when they really feel they got an edge or do some bet almost every race and still manage to come out ahead?

How do they do it.

PERHAPS THIS WAY

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?p=927434#post927434

[KidCapper]

This is how ya make money on the horses. You get a job as an on air "talent" on TVG and lose thousands on mythical wagers each day. At the end of the week pick up your paycheck. :lol:

[badcompany]

Here's a thread I started three years ago, which asked about pros:

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39882

Interestingly enough, most of the big mouths who claimed profitability, are long gone. Obviously, too ashamed to show their faces and keep up the lie.

[Rook]

Interestingly enough, most of the big mouths who claimed profitability, are long gone. Obviously, too ashamed to show their faces and keep up the lie.

Some fantasy world you've got going there where everyone is a mutual loser.

[Hedevar]

Here's a thread I started three years ago, which asked about pros:

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39882

Interestingly enough, most of the big mouths who claimed profitability, are long gone. Obviously, too ashamed to show their faces and keep up the lie.

Interesting post. I guess some of these guys were vaporized.

[formula_2002]

Here's a thread I started three years ago, which asked about pros:

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39882

Interestingly enough, most of the big mouths who claimed profitability, are long gone. Obviously, too ashamed to show their faces and keep up the lie.
I was curious what I had to say almost 3 year ago.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cj
There is no skill involved in picking the outcome of the toss of a coin.

You are obviously correct.
But given the many different sets of data required to pick winning horses, the public does an outstanding job in setting the odds line.
My point is that they (actually, their money ) are as accurate as a guy calling heads or tails.

They are both playing against a “perfect odds lines
My point was to demonstrate, how difficult it is to overcome, in this 50-50 case, a 20% vig. 2 standard units gets you EVEN..
I'd have to look into that again, I'm not certain that is correct or not, but the apple did not fall far away from the tree :)

[thaskalos]

Here's a thread I started three years ago, which asked about pros:

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39882

Interestingly enough, most of the big mouths who claimed profitability, are long gone. Obviously, too ashamed to show their faces and keep up the lie. Could it be that they struck it rich in this game...and then retired? :rolleyes:

[harness2008]

They are masters of virtue and insight as it relates to playing horses.

They are the very "wise" horseplayers. They are highly skilled, intelligent, and generally apply themselves with intensity.


If the terms virtue and insight are not familiar, look them up. Virtue is similar to what many refer to as "wagering", "wagering ability", "money management", "discipline", "selectivity" etc... while Insight represents "handicapping" "the selection process" "knowing more about the horses" "seeing the inner-workings of the race", although both words have broader meanings as well.


- The Art Of Being Lucky -
There are rules of luck and the wise do not leave it all to chance. Luck can be assisted by care. Some content themselves with placing themselves confidently at the gate of fortune, waiting till she opens it. Others do better, and press forward and profit by their clever boldness, reaching the goddess and wining her favor on the wings of their virtue and valor. But a true philosophy has no other umpire than virtue and insight - for there is no good or bad luck except wisdom and foolishness.
-- Balthasar Gracián


Luck is when preparation meets opportunity and you have to prepared to make your own luck. Quote from Vince Lombardi and it applies to horse racing as well.

[Indulto]

The reason being winning horseplayers are so rare is because you need to be a left and a right sided brained person. You have to be great at math, handling money and numbers but you also have to be able to 'paint a picture' and be a visionary. You need to be great at both.

Another problem most people face is that you have to have accumulated a decent sized bankroll and at the same time, not have a full time job. So, you would have had to had a good job, earned a bunch of money and then quit that nicely paying job to try to win money betting horses because there's not enough hours in the day to work a full time job and be able to do enough work to make a run as a full time horseplayer.SRU,
Once again I have to ask if you're speaking from experience.;)

Today's automated and on-line professional player has plenty of time to pursue other interests and/or careers.

"intelligence" has many components and different people have displayed or used different combinations to succeed at whatever they chose to succeed at.

From my personal observations, the key qualities to posess in order to START beating the game (assuming one is currently unsuccessful at it) -- to at least obtain additional disposable income -- are focus, dedication, determination, and curiousity. Attaining that goal must be the most important thing outside one's immediate life responsibilities. No distractions or diversions whenever time is available to apply one's resources to the task. I think being a qick-study and having an excellent memory helps.

I imagine continuing to beat the game at life-style supporting levels requires additional facets of one's acumen, talents, and personality as well.

Some here have contended that one' s "character" and "values" are also factors. IMO whether one's mission on earth is beating the game or something else, the most important faith to have is that in oneself.

[Stillriledup]

SRU,
Once again I have to ask if you're speaking from experience.;)

Today's automated and on-line professional player has plenty of time to pursue other interests and/or careers.

"intelligence" has many components and different people have displayed or used different combinations to succeed at whatever they chose to succeed at.

From my personal observations, the key qualities to posess in order to START beating the game (assuming one is currently unsuccessful at it) -- to at least obtain additional disposable income -- are focus, dedication, determination, and curiousity. Attaining that goal must be the most important thing outside one's immediate life responsibilities. No distractions or diversions whenever time is available to apply one's resources to the task. I think being a qick-study and having an excellent memory helps.

I imagine continuing to beat the game at life-style supporting levels requires additional facets of one's acumen, talents, and personality as well.

Some here have contended that one' s "character" and "values" are also factors. IMO whether one's mission on earth is beating the game or something else, the most important faith to have is that in oneself.


:cool:

I think that there are really no hard and fast rules to be a winner, every winning player has their own methods and i'm sure some winners methods totally differ from others. I would be willing to wager that not all of the very biggest bettors in the country rely on videotape. Like Mark mentions, he doesnt have time to watch tapes because he has to bet on half a dozen or more tracks to keep his betting handle high. So, he can win but doesnt have to spend a few hours per night (every night) watching tape.

You make some excellent points, i think the two most important things to beating this game, in fact i'll go as much to say these are vitals is the iron clad belief that you are a great talent and that iron can never take a TRUE dent after a losing streak. The greatest players in the world have had losing streaks so bad that if a little birdie was looking over their shoulder during that losing streak there's no way he would think anything other than "this moron the worst horseplayer in the world". No matter how many races you lose in a row, you have to believe with the deepest core of your soul that its just part of the game and that your NOT losing because you're just 'not good enough to beat the game".

Of course, its a must to actually be talented enough to beat the game, if you're not talented enough all that iron constitution stuff i talked about won't amount to a hill of beans.

The other most important thing is to believe with every fiber of your body that horse racing is honest. Its ok to moan and complain once in a while about cheaters and crooks, but you can't let your mindset revolve around this stuff, its just too toxic.

When i hear a player mention ANYTHING about drugs or cheats, i know he's probably not a winning player, i can tell he's frustrated he's losing and he's looking to lay blame. I think we all realize that not every race is 100 percent honest and not every horse is competing 100 percent clean, but your belief that an extremely high percentage of the races are honest is one of the most important things you can have going for you.

I would teach the aspiring pro to understand that a small percentage of the races are 'tainted' (meaning some jockey shenanigans or some trainers illegal drugs) but those small percentage of tainted races isnt going to make you go from someone who is destined to be a winning player to someone who is becomes a losing player. The key to winning is to exploit the 90+ percent of the totally honest races. The key is to properly evaluate the talent of the horses (as athletes) in the honest races so that the small percentage of the tainted races won't be part of your game. Besides, if there is a small amount of 'fixed' races, that stuff all evens out anyway, its a non factor in beating this game imo.

[thaskalos]

:cool:

The other most important thing is to believe with every fiber of your body that horse racing is honest. Its ok to moan and complain once in a while about cheaters and crooks, but you can't let your mindset revolve around this stuff, its just too toxic.

When i hear a player mention ANYTHING about drugs or cheats, i know he's probably not a winning player, i can tell he's frustrated he's losing and he's looking to lay blame. I think we all realize that not every race is 100 percent honest and not every horse is competing 100 percent clean, but your belief that an extremely high percentage of the races are honest is one of the most important things you can have going for you.

I would teach the aspiring pro to understand that a small percentage of the races are 'tainted' (meaning some jockey shenanigans or some trainers illegal drugs) but those small percentage of tainted races isnt going to make you go from someone who is destined to be a winning player to someone who is becomes a losing player. The key to winning is to exploit the 90+ percent of the totally honest races. The key is to properly evaluate the talent of the horses (as athletes) in the honest races so that the small percentage of the tainted races won't be part of your game. Besides, if there is a small amount of 'fixed' races, that stuff all evens out anyway, its a non factor in beating this game imo. I am confused...

You say that "it's ok to moan and complain once in a while about cheaters and crooks"...and then, in the very next sentence, you write that if you hear a player "mention ANYTHING about drugs or cheats"...then you know that he is probably not a winning player, but a frustrated loser.

Is it ok to complain about drugs and cheating...YES or NO?

If drugs and cheating undermine the integrity and the predictability of the game...why does it mean that we are "frustrated losers" if we talk about them?

[Trotman]

Badcompany you started this thread 3 years ago and one thing that is consistent is still today 46 still is spreading his know-it-all BS. :lol:

[badcompany]

Some fantasy world you've got going there where everyone is a mutual loser.

Not everyone, just 98%.

In the fantasy world where I live a broom closet costs the same as a two-bedroom house where you live.

In this fantasy world of my zip code the average income is about 200k a year. If you did a survey of everyone's primary source of income, and put the over/under for horseplayers at "1," I'd take the under.

[Stillriledup]

I am confused...

You say that "it's ok to moan and complain once in a while about cheaters and crooks"...and then, in the very next sentence, you write that if you hear a player "mention ANYTHING about drugs or cheats"...then you know that he is probably not a winning player, but a frustrated loser.

Is it ok to complain about drugs and cheating...YES or NO?

If drugs and cheating undermine the integrity and the predictability of the game...why does it mean that we are "frustrated losers" if we talk about them?

I didnt explain it the right way. Some players have this belief that it totally intertwined in everything they do that the races are tainted or crooked in some way. Other players who know that the races are honest for the most part will, on occasion, mention "this jock stiffed imo" or,something like that. Also, when the player mentions drugs or cheats in the context of losing bets, than i know its just sour grapes. I guess you would have to know if a player is a winner or not.

I think its ok to complain about cheating, but its important to not believe that this is the reason you are losing.

[Rook]

If you did a survey of everyone's primary source of income, and put the over/under for horseplayers at "1," I'd take the under.

And you would lose that bet in a heartbeat. Probability is not your forte. Spend more time on hobbies that don't penalize being clueless.

[badcompany]

And you would lose that bet in a heartbeat. Probability is not your forte. Spend more time on hobbies that don't penalize being clueless.

Why because some guy who lives 500 miles away, where houses go for 30k says so?

Maybe you are a pro. Where you live, one can survive on 10k a year.

[Rook]

Why because some guy who lives 500 miles away, where houses go for 30k says so?

Maybe you are a pro. Where you live, one can survive on 10k a year.

Predictably, you show yourself to be a total buffoon by spouting crap about things you know nothing about. From www.mls.ca (http://www.mls.ca) it can be discovered that there are 3028 homes for sale in the Canadian side of the Niagara region and a grand total of zero are below $40k, 1421 are above $250k and 72 are over $1 million.

I guess being off by a factor of 8 is par for your math skills. Pro horseplayers strive for a little more accuracy.:lol:

Admittedly, Niagara real estate prices are a pittance compared to Manhattan but if I lived there it wouldn't be a source of pride, I would feel like a chump. It might surprise an ignorant person like yourself to learn that there are millions of people that actually prefer to raise a family in a small community rather than a place like NYC or Toronto.

[jamey1977]

Here's a thread I started three years ago, which asked about pros:

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39882

Interestingly enough, most of the big mouths who claimed profitability, are long gone. Obviously, too ashamed to show their faces and keep up the lie.
I'm doing pretty good this year. at the end of the year. I will share my official plays and official wins. All verified. My hit rate is around 30 percent wins at a 10.40 average. I called up my Newport Beach pro friend he says. You big mouths don't do it and you say no one can. He says. " We don't think it or talk bull. We do it. And are doing it " .. He lives in Newport Beach, he doesn't have a job. How does he get his money ? Most of the big cats don't shoot their mouths off. They keep a low profile. I wonder why no one knows about them. There are reasons I won't go into. But hell if I can get 30 percent wins at 10.40. Just think what they can do. I'll keep you all posted. 30 at 10.40. but I play on one circuit and play - Win only. Why the hell does someone have to play 10 circuits, when they can't even make it on one? Some old guy told me that and I listened.

[badcompany]

Predictably, you show yourself to be a total buffoon by spouting crap about things you know nothing about. From www.mls.ca (http://www.mls.ca/) it can be discovered that there are 3028 homes for sale in the Canadian side of the Niagara region and a grand total of zero are below $40k, 1421 are above $250k and 72 are over $1 million.
.

Oh, I see you're Canadian. Stay out of NYC. We can spot bs artists a mile away.

[Dave Schwartz]

Well, Mr. Bad, you've got this one wrong.


Rook and I may not like each other very much at times - that is verifiable history. But I guarantee you that he is the real deal.

And my definition of Mr. Rook being "real" is that I know for a fact he has had multiple years in the $400k plus range of profit.

So, you may not much like him either... I know he can really rub someone the wrong way (as can I, with just a little effort) - LOL - But he is the real deal.


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[JohnGalt1]

One advantage we have today is internet wagering.

When most go to the track, or even an OTB, most will play more tracks and races (even where they don't hold a strong opinion) to make there trip "worthwhile".

At home, since there is no fuel or other expenses for leaving the house, one can be more selective.

One day I decided to handicap Atlantic City. I found one playable race in the 6 race card. The horse won.

We're all supposed to have a lead butt and wait for a good bet. At home it should be easier.

But for those that have to bet on every race at every track, internet wagering is the worst thing everr invented.

[badcompany]

Well, Mr. Bad, you've got this one wrong.


Rook and I may not like each other very much at times - that is verifiable history. But I guarantee you that he is the real deal.

And my definition of Mr. Rook being "real" is that I know for a fact he has had multiple years in the $400k plus range of profit.

So, you may not much like him either... I know he can really rub someone the wrong way (as can I, with just a little effort) - LOL - But he is the real deal.


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

I really don't care one way or the other. Read my initial post in this thread. Do you see your pal's name mentioned? Did I say "all" or "most"? If your buddy is the real deal, he sure is insecure about it.

Here's a thread I started three years ago, which asked about pros:

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39882

Interestingly enough, most of the big mouths who claimed profitability, are long gone. Obviously, too ashamed to show their faces and keep up the lie.

[Rook]

If your buddy is the real deal, he sure is insecure about it.

The only guy who is insecure is you. It obviously drives you crazy to think that some people can succeed where you have failed. The fact that you keep posting here even though you think this game is only for losers shows that you have some issues that need to be resolved.

[badcompany]

The only guy who is insecure is you. It obviously drives you crazy to think that some people can succeed where you have failed. The fact that you keep posting here even though you think this game is only for losers shows that you have some issues that need to be resolved.


I've said over and over that I play horses for recreational purposes, and that I don't count on this game for anything but as a pastime. In that regard I've succeeded.

I'm going to be at Saratoga for about four weeks of the meet. Whether I win or lose is irrelevant. I'm going to have a good time regardless.

As far as you go, you're just another little man inflating himself on the internet.

[Rook]

As far as you go, you are just a loser trying to delude himself into believing all others are miserable failures.

[JustRalph]

400k in winnings and no taxes on it.............

Thanks,..........now I hate myself even more............

[badcompany]

400k in winnings and no taxes on it.............



Unfortunately, he can't use it to buy a good personality.;)

[Rook]

Unfortunately, he can't use it to buy a good personality.;)

It's pretty sad that a thread from three years ago meant so much to you that you haven't been able to let it go. I'm sorry that I disappointed you in not joining you as a failure like you had hoped. Good luck in coming up with a new highlight to your life.:ThmbUp:

[bigmack]

As far as you go, you are just a loser trying to delude himself into believing all others are miserable failures.
Don't even bother with that clown, Rook. He started that thread three years ago from a cynical position and he remains a jaded also-ran.

His stance of "I go to SAR every year and I simply enjoy myself, I don't care if I loose or not" or "Playing ponies is a pathetic way to make a living" is further evidence he lives a life filled with defeat, anger & cynicism.

To coin a phrase, 'even if he had the Glengarry leads he wouldn't know what to do them and remains in a Hyundai world cursing a world of 7 series'

[toetoe]

Rook takes Pawn, and mate ... m-m-m-mebbe. :)

[toetoe]

Hyundai world



Macktruck,

Herjew w'zget'n a new Peterbilt. Howzat workin' for ya ? :p .

[PaceAdvantage]

Oh, I see you're Canadian. Stay out of NYC. We can spot bs artists a mile away.I'd appreciate it if you'd refrain from these personal attacks on people who truly don't deserve it...

[badcompany]

I'd appreciate it if you'd refrain from these personal attacks on people who truly don't deserve it...

You're right. It was uncalled for.

Kinda like this...

Predictably, you show yourself to be a total buffoon...

And this...

As far as you go, you are just a loser trying to delude himself into believing all others are miserable failures.

And not to mention the old man in the dirty undershirt who jumped in unprovoked and gave Rook a Wrap around http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=wrap%20around in the form of a personal attack against me.


Don't even bother with that clown, Rook. He started that thread three years ago from a cynical position and he remains a jaded also-ran.


Yet, you singled me out. That's okay. I'm a big boy and have been called worse.

But, let's say Rook's version of reality is correct. He's God's gift to handicapping and I'm just a hopeless Lemming. What is the point of rubbing it in for any reason other than to gloat?

If you saw a guy in a $2k suit making fun of a homeless person, would you not think the former was a jerk?

Perhaps there's a reason Rook
can really rub someone the wrong way.

Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[Rook]

But, let's say Rook's version of reality is correct. He's God's gift to handicapping and I'm just a hopeless Lemming. What is the point of rubbing it in for any reason other than to gloat?


Listen Bubs, I am not the one who started the name calling. I had absolutely no intention on getting involved in this or any other thread (like "Is it Possible..") that discusses professional betting. I fully understand that braggarts are not the most attractive people.

But when you call me a liar and big mouth (no, my name wasn't mentioned directly but a click of the link shows that I am one of the few you are talking about), I am going to stand up for myself. I may be egotistical and abrasive but a liar I am not.


If you saw a guy in a $2k suit making fun of a homeless person, would you not think the former was a jerk?


Yes, I surely would and when you started going on about how you live in Manhattan so you are obviously more successful than someone who lives in Niagara, than that confirmed to me and the board who is the true jerk in this thread.

[PaceAdvantage]

You're right. It was uncalled for.

Kinda like this...



And this...No kinda about it. Rook hardly ever posts. You tell me who the provocateur was?

Thanks for killing what could have been a much better thread.

Didn't I meet you in person at Saratoga last year? You didn't strike me as someone who was going to be on my radar...

[Cratos]

It is akin to asking what is the Tao or the Way.....If you try to articulate it with words the concept it lost. It is a state of mind bearing on the fact like the great philosophers of old ask...What is the essence? IT IS GAMBLING not handicapping.........

It is discovering that same competence gleaned that card players or other sports bettors have always known, HUNT for the overlays and play them to the exclusion of everything else.

This is where you and me agree, it is gambling and you must (not should) be a gambler to win and you must be discipline.

Without a doubt you must have a bankroll because when you lose (and you will lose) you must be able to bet afterwards with discipline and confidence.

I will say this, betting at the racetrack is a lonely place, but there isn’t any place better in my opinion to bet than to bet live at the racetrack.

The reason being is that you will feel (if not know) that you can see more about the horse that you are betting than the numbers will ever tell you.

There is not a better feeling than having a bag of wooden nickels on a horse that win at odds of 3-1 or better.

[DeanT]

I will say this, betting at the racetrack is a lonely place, but there isn’t any place better in my opinion to bet than to bet live at the racetrack.

The reason being is that you will feel (if not know) that you can see more about the horse that you are betting than the numbers will ever tell you.


This is an interesting opinion. It is an opinion I agree with for some folks, for others no. Some can not bet seriously at a track - they need their numbers, PPs, access to check a quick replay before firing etc. Others who have five or six plays mapped out and can watch their horses from paddock to gate, can fire that way.

I have met both sets of successful gamblers, and I am sure there are both sets on this very board.

I usually stay out of these topics because gamblers have their own way of doing things, especially successful ones. Often times it is "my way or the highway" posts on this matter. What makes this game so great, imo, that it is not my way or the highway, nothing like that. There are so many ways to skin a cat in racing and be successful. What works for someone at 1.10 ROI over time, might be a 0.80ROI move for another type player.

[Stillriledup]

This is an interesting opinion. It is an opinion I agree with for some folks, for others no. Some can not bet seriously at a track - they need their numbers, PPs, access to check a quick replay before firing etc. Others who have five or six plays mapped out and can watch their horses from paddock to gate, can fire that way.

I have met both sets of successful gamblers, and I am sure there are both sets on this very board.

I usually stay out of these topics because gamblers have their own way of doing things, especially successful ones. Often times it is "my way or the highway" posts on this matter. What makes this game so great, imo, that it is not my way or the highway, nothing like that. There are so many ways to skin a cat in racing and be successful. What works for someone at 1.10 ROI over time, might be a 0.80ROI move for another type player.

Cratos speaks for many people when he says being there live is no substitute. I think that if you are a person who is going to attend live racing, you need binoculars and you need to really study everything that happens after the wire and when the horses come back to be unsaddled. This is stuff that isnt in the form and doesnt show up on the replays. There is a big edge in knowing how 'healthy' a horse is from watching him return to be unsaddled and on his gallop out. Of course, that would take years of experience and keen observation to perfect that skill, but i think this is the main reason to pay the expenses to actually attend live racing.

Funny how many people who watch the live racing are inside the tracks watching on televisions. I guess i'll never get why people dont take advantage of the live product and watch with their eyes. Why watch a live horse race on a television if you are at the track, that never made sense to me.

[thaskalos]

Funny how many people who watch the live racing are inside the tracks watching on televisions. I guess i'll never get why people dont take advantage of the live product and watch with their eyes. Why watch a live horse race on a television if you are at the track, that never made sense to me. How can we be outside, watching the live product...when we are betting 5 tracks at the same time?

[Cardus]

They read Pace Advantage religiously.

[miesque]

This is an interesting opinion. It is an opinion I agree with for some folks, for others no. Some can not bet seriously at a track - they need their numbers, PPs, access to check a quick replay before firing etc. Others who have five or six plays mapped out and can watch their horses from paddock to gate, can fire that way.

I have met both sets of successful gamblers, and I am sure there are both sets on this very board.

I usually stay out of these topics because gamblers have their own way of doing things, especially successful ones. Often times it is "my way or the highway" posts on this matter. What makes this game so great, imo, that it is not my way or the highway, nothing like that. There are so many ways to skin a cat in racing and be successful. What works for someone at 1.10 ROI over time, might be a 0.80ROI move for another type player.

What is considered an optimal set-up is very much dependent on what style bettor you are, what are your handicapping angles/strengths, your personality and how you mentality process the data have accumulated, coupled with your general preferences. There is no right or wrong way, its all what works for you. As has been previously mentioned, when you are at the track you are privy to more visual information than what is portrayed sitting in your living room watching on TV. The more important and useful that is, the more value there is in being at the track in person. For me optimal is being at the track with (1) a good view of the track from which to watch the horses and all the action (2) having a table to spread out my pps and hopefully there will be Wi-Fi available so its worthwhile to bring my laptop (if not there needs to be a replay machine within close proximity), (3) a TV on my table and (4) be located such that I can zip down to the paddock for up close inspection if need be. So in other words a hybrid of the research availability, comforts and convenience of home with the very significant supplementary visual data and excitement/energy level of being at the track.

[Stillriledup]

How can we be outside, watching the live product...when we are betting 5 tracks at the same time?

When the live race is going off, walk outside and watch it?

[thespaah]

So true, so true.....

Many years ago when I was a "groom", I went sniffing around for some info....I got 4 or 5 "tips & go's" in the same race as the horse that I was taking to the paddock that nite, and my horse "WON"....He went wire to wire from the rail, and he was a stone cold closer, who never had the lead in any race in the previous two years....

He paid $88 and change, and I didn't have a nickel on him....:D

So much for backstretch tips..

best,
SO you paddocked an $88 winner and the owner didn't place a bet on the horse for you as a gratuity?
Wow!! In my short career as a harness groom, every time I paddocked a horse or one of my buddies did, we all had the owner(s) and sometimes trainer would place a bet for us. If the horse won, they'd tip us that amount.
I had a friend who had a 2 year old win at 18-1. The owner put a $20 win bet in for him, cashed it and gave my friend the winnings.

[Judicious Player]

More than in any other endeavor...I believe that in THIS game...you need a mentor.

There is so much misinformation surrounding this game, that you could stay side-tracked for many years, trying to put the pieces together on your own.

I have learned more from ONE man, than from reading a shelf full of handicapping books...and he was a professional POKER PLAYER!

The secret lies NOT in mastering the game (THIS, you can NEVER do)...but in mastering YOURSELF!

A mentor shows you, BY EXAMPLE, how a "true" professional handles himself in stressful situations...

100% right on the money!!! Pros know how to interpret data, whatever that data may be, and they know how to manage their money, and most important, they know how to manage their emotions. (Not enough is written about the latter.)

[lurker]

Keys:

Value, value, and of course value

1) rebates
2) non parimutuel
3) both of the above if possible
4) betting exchanges
5) credit

[ezpace]

They are masters of virtue and insight as it relates to playing horses.

They are the very "wise" horseplayers. They are highly skilled, intelligent, and generally apply themselves with intensity.


If the terms virtue and insight are not familiar, look them up. Virtue is similar to what many refer to as "wagering", "wagering ability", "money management", "discipline", "selectivity" etc... while Insight represents "handicapping" "the selection process" "knowing more about the horses" "seeing the inner-workings of the race", although both words have broader meanings as well.


- The Art Of Being Lucky -
There are rules of luck and the wise do not leave it all to chance. Luck can be assisted by care. Some content themselves with placing themselves confidently at the gate of fortune, waiting till she opens it. Others do better, and press forward and profit by their clever boldness, reaching the goddess and wining her favor on the wings of their virtue and valor. But a true philosophy has no other umpire than virtue and insight - for there is no good or bad luck except wisdom and foolishness.
-- Balthasar Gracián
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"Luck Is the Resevoir of a prepared mind" ...........unknown

[mamaluke]

There was a gentleman on the N.Y.circuit known as "the fatman,the roundman,the big guy" who was a big winner year in year out,with yearly profits into the hundreds of thousands according to the few who knew him on a personal basis.He had the Rag Sheets,also Lawton,Powell,and other tip sheets on his desk,probably to see what was being played by the public.He was polite but quiet and was a loner. I knew him for about 10 years and often exchanged greetings and asked him how he felt and that was it,never discussing horses or betting
He passed away a few years ago and as far as I know died without revealing his insights although they probably would not help anyone without the feel or instincts he developed over the years.I dont think he had much of a life other than handicapping, as it wears one down, as all you have time for is grabbing a meal and getting on to the next days card

This lifestyle is not for most of us,even if you were one of the few who would be successful
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