interesting conversation...

[Dave Schwartz]

I had an interesting conversation with one of my former clients today.

Essentially, he says that he has been a hardworking guy his whole life. He worked as an electrical engineer. Five years ago he had $200k equity in his $500k home, an IRA with almost $200k in it and a $70k job. His wife worked, making $30k as an office manager.

He was laid off 3 years ago and was unable to get a job in his industry. Has been drawing unemployment. Recently took a job at Wal-Mart, even though it pays less than he was drawing on unemployment.

His wife was laid off and has been drawing unemployment. She may look to Wal-Mart as well.

His IRA dropped in value to about 35% of what it was worth. He ultimately withdrew the rest to live on. The penalties killed him.

His house is now worth under $200k, leaving him upside down.

They have gone through all their savings and have nothing left.


Not a pretty picture but his quote really hit home with me. He said (paraphrase):

"I was one of those people who did everything right. I went to school, got a good education, married my college sweetheart and we built a life together. We managed our money well, had some money set aside for retirement and equity in our home. Now, through no fault of my own beyond believing in the American Dream, I have nothing.

"Meanwhile, the %$^#@ that started all of this got 'bailed out.' For them it is business as usual. The thing that hurts the most is knowing that they did it with MY tax dollars! As broke as I am, I still have to find a way to fund THEIR life."

"This wasn't Republicans or Democrats. It was our LEADERS. all of them."

In dead seriousness, he said that he may very well take his own life. What do you say to someone like this?


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[46zilzal]

I hear this story over and over from friends who are a step away from losing their homes. Same story: did everything right and the corporate bastards manipulate the system to screw over eveyone.

[GameTheory]

I feel for him, but the sad fact is it is even worse than he makes it. He'd like to blame the current crop of leaders and greedy bankers, but this sort of undermining of the little guy was built into the system (on purpose) by greedy bankers before most of the people reading this were born. Our banking system is specifically designed to steal from the people "farthest away" from the central bank for the benefit of those closest to it. Save overturning the whole federal reserve system -- which our leaders are either completely clueless about or happy enough to be complicit in -- the behavior and motivations of the main players are almost irrelevant as the theft is built into the system and booms and busts are guaranteed whether or not those players are greedy bastards or virtuous angels. Everything collapses not because some greedy jerk does something greedy, but because the resources are always going to follow the path of least resistance not matter who is in those "power" positions. Structure determines behavior, and we have a structure that tries to allocate where resources go (by economic definition an automatic misallocation) and therefore the big projects are invested in without a true foundation, and eventually something breaks and you have a collapse. (Your friend can blame our leaders for dragging out these problems for years longer than necessary by their ridiculous interventions and bailouts, which do hurt him in the ways he suspects.)

On the subject of "doing the right thing his whole life" and now thinking of taking of his own life. You might remind him that still at this moment he is living at a higher standard of living than 99.9% of the humanity that has ever been on this earth, as we all are. And although a decent chunk of that humanity was miserable from birth to death, a not insignificant portion led happy and fulfilling lives for the most part. That is each person's choice to make, regardless of circumstances. Circumstances do not determine happiness, and dissatisfaction with this or that aspect of life or government does not cause unhappiness.

[boxcar]

I hear this story over and over from friends who are a step away from losing their homes. Same story: did everything right and the corporate bastards manipulate the system to screw over eveyone.

Let's see now...you blame everything on Evil Capitalism, right? It's all greed, corporate America's fault? Well, if that's the case, where was the all wise, all knowing, all enlightened, all powerful state during this time? It seems this all loving, caring, all compassionate state, at whose altar you worship, failed dismally to protect those it says it loves. Of course, this couldn't have anything do with the fact that most politicians are pretty wealthy in their own right -- not to mention another fact that most are lawyers?

You are so without clue, it's unbelievable!

Boxcar

[Tom]

Business and government = bad. Always.
Never trust either of them on any issues.

[lamboguy]

I had an interesting conversation with one of my former clients today.

Essentially, he says that he has been a hardworking guy his whole life. He worked as an electrical engineer. Five years ago he had $200k equity in his $500k home, an IRA with almost $200k in it and a $70k job. His wife worked, making $30k as an office manager.

He was laid off 3 years ago and was unable to get a job in his industry. Has been drawing unemployment. Recently took a job at Wal-Mart, even though it pays less than he was drawing on unemployment.

His wife was laid off and has been drawing unemployment. She may look to Wal-Mart as well.

His IRA dropped in value to about 35% of what it was worth. He ultimately withdrew the rest to live on. The penalties killed him.

His house is now worth under $200k, leaving him upside down.

They have gone through all their savings and have nothing left.


Not a pretty picture but his quote really hit home with me. He said (paraphrase):

"I was one of those people who did everything right. I went to school, got a good education, married my college sweetheart and we built a life together. We managed our money well, had some money set aside for retirement and equity in our home. Now, through no fault of my own beyond believing in the American Dream, I have nothing.

"Meanwhile, the %$^#@ that started all of this got 'bailed out.' For them it is business as usual. The thing that hurts the most is knowing that they did it with MY tax dollars! As broke as I am, I still have to find a way to fund THEIR life."

"This wasn't Republicans or Democrats. It was our LEADERS. all of them."

In dead seriousness, he said that he may very well take his own life. What do you say to someone like this?


Regards,
Dave Schwartz
unfortunately true, and this is the system for years.


i just want you to think about this, if you go bancrupt the banks chase you down now for the rest of your life due to new bancrupcy laws. when the bank goes under, the taxpayers pay for them. as you can tell its not a fair system, it never is for honest people. honest people get reemed and beemed with the status quo. i would never screw an individual, if i can get a bank and get away with it i am going to take my best shot.

[Bettowin]

401k's are an interesting subject by themselves. Most people have been used to opening the statements to see how much they have gone up over the last 30 years. My friends and I have had them our whole working lives and most of the people I talk to about 401k's don't really know how their money is invested other than it's in some type of fund. Take a look at what stocks some so called conservative funds hold.

The mantra has been to buy and hold because it will come back, it always does. That becomes a problem when you have saved your whole life and THEN get whacked for a 60% drop. Capital preservation should be the theme going forward for those with less than 20 years to retirement:)

I find it amazing how little people really know or understand about investing and their own retirement.

[Canadian]

Yet, somehow, someway, you guys still manage to be the fattest nation that has ever existed!!!

[bisket]

the regulations at one time said: the bank has to check a persons finances before you give them a loan for 500k to buy a house. these regulations were undermined to the point that banks didn't have to do this at all. give me your social security number and heres the house :rolleyes: . this is why this poor fellow is in the spot he's in. regulations were there to protect the people who did things right. remember the days when you had to have 20% down. if you were a first time buyer you were required to jump through many hoops before you were given a loan. when were these regulations tossed to the side? it started in 2002 with the "ownership america" load of horse manure. HOPEFULLY THE LOOP HOLE WILL BE CHANGED WITH THE BILL THATS ATTEPMTING TO MAKE ITS WAY THROUGH CONGRESS NOW. although there are many congress people and senators that for some reason don't think a bank should be made to do this. why? god only knows. good luck getting health insurance from walmart. its really a shame we were lead down this road. i sincerely hope this couple can do better than walmart sometime in the near future. :ThmbUp:

[sammy the sage]

""This wasn't Republicans or Democrats. It was our LEADERS. all of them."

In dead seriousness, he said that he may very well take his own life. What do you say to someone like this?""

Loser that'swhat I call him...tell him to GROW a pair...he should least go out and take out a banker and be PRODUCTIVE...I mean after all...our fore-father's DIED over a stinking TEA TAX...

Taking one's own life...is just...shall we say...retarded.

[Dave Schwartz]

the regulations at one time said: the bank has to check a persons finances before you give them a loan for 500k to buy a house. these regulations were undermined to the point that banks didn't have to do this at all. give me your social security number and heres the house . this is why this poor fellow is in the spot he's in.

You must have posted in the wrong thread if you think that "this is why this poor fellow is in the spot he is in."

So, if your house devalued 50% or more, you lost your job and there were no jobs in your profession and your portfolio dropped by 65%, your failure would be because you purchased too much house?

[bisket]

Business and government = bad. Always.
Never trust either of them on any issues.
does it give you alot of encouragement that the supreme court decided to allow business to give unlimited donations to politicians and political parties.

[bigmack]

I have to assume the $200k equity in his $500k home was based on the perceived value of it being worth $500K. If he paid $500K he'd best move.

[bisket]

You must have posted in the wrong thread if you think that "this is why this poor fellow is in the spot he is in."

So, if your house devalued 50% or more, you lost your job and there were no jobs in your profession and your portfolio dropped by 65%, your failure would be because you purchased too much house?
the reason his house is devalued is because the fed decided to increase interest rates, and banks began giving interest only mortgages to get around it. while using the relaxed regulations to loan money to buyers that weren't capable of paying their mortgages. this was all based on the notion that real estate would increase in value endlessly. on top of that many OUR retirement funds purchased securities that backed up these loans. so when all these people who were given loans they couldn't repay started to default on them our retirement accounts took a hit. on top of that our real estate "boom" was predicated on these unworthy buyers so our demand for housing declined steeply. which in turn plummeted real estate values. couple that with defaults and real estate nose dived. now your friend is an electrical engineer. so he depends on new construction for his livelihood. developers can't build because land values are below any threshold to qualify for a loan, and credit is hard to find. isn't deregulation one of the best things our politicians came up with?

[cj's dad]

In dead seriousness, he said that he may very well take his own life. What do you say to someone like this?


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

That suicide is a very selfish act. It destroys families. I know. My wife's sister did that and to this day the parents have not recovered and the siblings will never be the same. The family, in general will never ever be the same.

[offtrack]

Short sale the house.
Rent.

Learn to manage the 401K, or find some one who can.

Help him understand he is not his money.

Testify to your faith and let him know the joy you receive from it.

[witchdoctor]

That suicide is a very selfish act. It destroys families. I know. My wife's sister did that and to this day the parents have not recovered and the siblings will never be the same. The family, in general will never ever be the same.


He needs to get help. Suicide usually destoys the survivors.

[fast4522]

I worked for the same company for 31 years, the guy who hired me way back when knew everything before it would take place and I looked for what he would have a opinion on from time to time. At one point he told me that in a year from now we would not be working for the company, no questions to him because I knew from his track record that he was 99 % right even though it looked like I could go on until retirement. About the same conversation he also said they would cut the package everyone got from 1 year including everything pay & bennys to just 26 weeks no matter how long your length of service. I was out the door six months after that conversation with the full year of pay and insurance, the next block that was let go was about 400 head and some 30 year people with a maximum package of 26 weeks. This company is still living off the fumes of its original founder and owner. When that guy built the company he took a shot on 5 or 6 new ideas and often scored with half of the gamble's. The thing is the guy knew how to build a company and share in its success with all of its employees. But when he had less than 51% ownership in stock he also found himself and his brother who was a VP out the door. They do not teach how to build company's in schools now but rather how to dismantle for profit because the tax code is such. I have nothing against the millionaire industrialist or the honest Joe Six pack who works for him, and feel that both are being ripped a new one. The egg sucking ferrets are lower than dirt to think that the successful men and women who create jobs for Joe six pack should be taxed more. Lower than dirt indeed!

[cratman]

If he can he needs to change his perspective. If he compares his present to his recent past it will not be constructive. Like many, he struggled to maintain the idea that he should continue as he had, and so spent what was left in his IRA.

Instead if he can derive some positive reinforcement from where he is now, through faith, his relationship with his wife or whatever may work for him that could help.

One of the earlier posters may have been thinking that the financial crisis was rooted in the inefficient allocation of capital, largely in the housing market, based on conflicted ratings agencies assigning AAA ratings to risky mortgage- backed securities that lead to purchases of mortgage-backed securities at inflated prices, and that the decline in the value of his house was an example of the ultimate unwinding.

[Dave Schwartz]

I am surprised at the responses here. Really surprised.

First, the suicide thing. I get that, having lost someone to suicide many years ago. I did, in fact, talk of faith and the "bigger things" than his predicament. Ultimately, suicide - especially done to escape your own misery - is a cowardly act. The Japanese might disagree.

What I am surprised about is the lack of compassion. Listen, this guy did not purchase a house he couldn't afford AT THE TIME HE PURCHASED IT.

Show of hands, now... how many of you could go without income for two years and not dip into your savings, 401k, IRA?

[Space Monkey]

Not me Dave. I must say that I'm shocked that you are surprised by the lack of compassion shown here. Thats really funny (sic) if you think about it with this group.

[Canadian]

I am surprised at the responses here. Really surprised.

First, the suicide thing. I get that, having lost someone to suicide many years ago. I did, in fact, talk of faith and the "bigger things" than his predicament. Ultimately, suicide - especially done to escape your own misery - is a cowardly act. The Japanese might disagree.

What I am surprised about is the lack of compassion. Listen, this guy did not purchase a house he couldn't afford AT THE TIME HE PURCHASED IT.

Show of hands, now... how many of you could go without income for two years and not dip into your savings, 401k, IRA?


We don't know the guy, so that's why you see the lack of compasion. Unemployment can be paralyzing... I was on unemployment insurance for a whole year and it was the laziest I've ever been in my life. Had to go out West to oil country to get myself on my feet.

Hope your friend can get himself back on his feet.

[Tom]

does it give you alot of encouragement that the supreme court decided to allow business to give unlimited donations to politicians and political parties.

See new thread.

[bigmack]

Not me Dave. I must say that I'm shocked that you are surprised by the lack of compassion shown here. Thats really funny (sic) if you think about it with this group.
Hasn't a Tea Partier punched you in the nose yet?

Boo~

[bisket]

the real hurting thing about this particular downturn is how retirements were affected so badly. in years past when our economy would enter a downturn many people close to retirement would retire early to allow a younger coworker with many responsibilities to continue working. this time, a class move like that isn't in the cards. we're in a tough spot, and i don't see our economy expanding enough to make a big difference anytime soon. this couple will be in my prayers. dave i think you may have misinterpreted what i was trying to get across. we had laws and regulations to protect a fellow like this, and as a country we made the mistake of forgetting where we came from.

[Grits]

I am surprised at the responses here. Really surprised.

First, the suicide thing. I get that, having lost someone to suicide many years ago. I did, in fact, talk of faith and the "bigger things" than his predicament. Ultimately, suicide - especially done to escape your own misery - is a cowardly act. The Japanese might disagree.

What I am surprised about is the lack of compassion. Listen, this guy did not purchase a house he couldn't afford AT THE TIME HE PURCHASED IT.

Show of hands, now... how many of you could go without income for two years and not dip into your savings, 401k, IRA?

Dave, don't have a lot of replies forthcoming to your last question here, huh? That could be because its much easier to point fingers and direct blame to who and what caused this mess so many are in. He's not their friend, so its not a real concern. If he blows his brains out, he'll simply be part of an increasing statistic won't he?

I hope you don't lose your friend. Your ability to listen and care may have far more impact on him than you know. Its good that he has you. Sometimes, all it takes is one person listening. You may help him realize that he would destroy the lives of those that love him.

Taking one's own life...is just...shall we say...retarded.
Sammy The Sage, no you're mistaken. I haven't ever known a retarded person that took their own lives. And I've known many.

[bigmack]

What I am surprised about is the lack of compassion.

Well good grief. If the subject at hand is how do you answer someone who throws suicide on the table, you tell them to call a Doc or counselor or you'll do it for them.

You certainly can't slight peoples level of compassion being that it was a story you told with more information than was necessary if you were looking for 'suicide' advice.

Wow. I've heard stories WAY worse than that and the people down-scaled to a bare bones operation and several have found more enjoyment in their lives than they've felt in years. Truly.

Simple pleasures baby; they're all around us.

[johnhannibalsmith]

Not me Dave. I must say that I'm shocked that you are surprised by the lack of compassion shown here. Thats really funny (sic) if you think about it with this group.

Welcome back. Good to see that you've evolved away from throwing stones from your pedestal during the reprieve.

[Dave Schwartz]

Mack,

Apparently I did not explain myself well. I was not looking for "suicide advice." I've got hat part covered.

The guy wants to know how this happened. His point is that he feels he did everything right and still this has happened to him.

The answer has to be more than "bad things happen to good people" or "
he wasn't successful enough."

[johnhannibalsmith]

...The guy wants to know how this happened. His point is that he feels he did everything right and still this has happened to him.

The answer has to be more than "bad things happen to good people" or "
he wasn't successful enough."

I don't know, this isn't sage advice or anything... but what I've learned along the trip is that many things lack logical explanation. He probably did nothing wrong, he may have done everything right, but he still finds himself embattled in a struggle. It's a common theme in life, I think - trying to do the right thing as though karma will act as a shield from harm and hurt. I rarely see it actually play out that way.

Instead, trying to deal and cope with the unforseen, uncontrollable harm and hurt the right way, doing the right thing the same way one does with the IRA and wife, generally shields the self from the harm and hurt that is forseeable and controllable.

In other words, I don't think that the two issues that you posed are that unrelated - mainly from the repeated position that your friend "had done the right things". There is no inherent justice. Bad things don't happen to good people any more than good things happen to good people. Things happen. Doing "the right thing" is noble and honorable, but it isn't protection. It's a solution.

[bigmack]

The answer has to be more than "bad things happen to good people" or " he wasn't successful enough."
There is no answer. At least one that can be conveyed to him with any deep level of understanding.

When life throws a curve, A MAJOR curve, people need to adapt. Ones ability to adapt can arguably comfort any need to look back with sadness, regret or unhappiness.

A strong will and something that makes him happy/laugh each day can go a country mile.

[Indulto]

There’s too much we don’t know about this individual. There’s no point in going into scenarios of greater devastation that some people have had the strength to survive if he is crippled emotionally, psychologically, or ideologically.

There are people out there who are willing and able to help those in distress of this kind provided they are willing and able to accept it, but there’s no guarantee the desired result will be achieved. No situation is so bad it can’t get even worse.

Sometimes one has to experience devastation before one can understand that it's OK to need help as well as to give it.

[JustRalph]

Dave, I am sure there were a bunch of people asking the same questions as your friend, in late 1929 or 1930

The problem is we were let down in multiple places. Our government, mostly. The Banking system which is getting off free and clear, and the fact that his wealth was mostly in "thin air assets" as I have seen them called. Although it was exactly how the "smart investor" was supposed to be doing it. It was supposed to be the way to go. Maximum return etc. etc.

I have a buddy that manages portfolios for public employees in the mid west. He has had a rough last 2 years. He is a former Police Officer and Fireman who went into financial management and went to work managing retirement accounts for Fire and Police. He had to look those guys in the eye in many meetings and try to tell them to stay the course and explain what was happening to their assets. It just got worse and worse.

He thought he was doing everything right too. For about 1900 people. And he is devastated at what has happen. He is still holding on to the fact that some of their portfolios have come back about 20%. I haven't spoken to him, but I am betting he has had a rough couple of weeks these last two.

[xtb]

on top of that our real estate "boom" was predicated on these unworthy buyers so our demand for housing declined steeply. which in turn plummeted real estate values. couple that with defaults and real estate nose dived. now your friend is an electrical engineer. so he depends on new construction for his livelihood.

I believe you're confusing an electrical engineer with an electrician, they're quite different. So many of our jobs in this country have left the building and gone to China and India. First it was manufacturing, then s/w and engineering jobs. Unless something is done to bring these jobs back, the standard of living in the U.S. will never be the same. China in particular is sucking us dry and our government, past and present, encourages it. We simply cannot compete with virtual slave labor with our unions and labor laws. I can't understand why we don't at the very very least, place tariffs on goods and services from countries where the workers are paid less than the U.S. minimum wage.

[GameTheory]

I can't understand why we don't at the very very least, place tariffs on goods and services from countries where the workers are paid less than the U.S. minimum wage.They don't help, for one reason. Tariffs just prop up one thing at the expense of another, and overall wages & standard of living go down.

[bisket]

yes china has its hand in this. i know what an electrical engineer is. my uncle worked for our area utility for 48 years as an eletrical engineer. that was actually going to be my next post... the fact that daves friend could have also worked for a utility. this sector of our economy has also experienced problems due to deregulation. this particular idea was part of the contract with america along with president clinton endorsing it. prior to deregulating the utility industry these companies were not allowed by law to invest their earnings in other areas of the economy. utilities reported to the government how much they collected from consumers along with their expenditures. the government in turn set utility rates to always allow the utility companies to always make a profit. there's two reasons utilities were regulated. one being they provide a service that is understood every family needs. lets reinforce the idea that many families would freeze to death without the service, and is also a standard of living requirement that we can't do without! for this reason if utilities weren't regulated THEY COULD CHARGE WHATEVER THEY PLEASE FOR THE SERVICE!! the other reason utilities were regulated is because they use credit to purchase the eletricity and heating fuel from the generating plants. the fact that the utility could get into a vicarious financial situation if they invested the proceeds they collected for their electrical service unwisely was the basis for not allowing them outside investments. if the utility got into a vicarious financial situation our world would come to a stop so to speak. so basically the reasoning behind the regulations was because utilities provide a crucial service that need to be insulated from downward economic swings. ok so in 2008 the people that provide our energy needs could invest how they pleased and could CHARGE ANYTHING THEY DAM WELL PLEASED FOR THE SERVICE TO MAKE UP FOR LAPSES IN JUDGEMENT to keep their credit ratings high enough to provide electricity to me and you. well guess what most utility companies invested in? yup the same real estate backed securities ralphs buddy relied so heavily on. see the reason so many crucial investment portfolios bought real estate securities is because prior to 2002 real estate loans were heavily regulated because real estate is the foundation of our financial system. real estate securities were safe because unworthy loan applicants were not permited to recieve loans from the banks by the government.
so now badda bing!! badda boom!! real estate values plummet and one of the most crucial infrastructure entities (utilities) is caught in it on two levels. one: they are heavily invested in the real estate securities so they their portfolios nose dive, and two: they can't get credit to purchase fuel and electricity to provide to you. this is why it was so important to prop all the banks up. so this is the other way all this could have effected dave's friend.
now if dave's friend was an eletrical engineer for say general electric.... a chinaman is doing his old job for 5 bucks a day :rolleyes:
dave tell your friend his cross to bare is the result of our sins. just like when jesus carried our cross to be nailed to it; when your friend stumbles and falls and the cross becomes to much to bare. there will be people (like you) that come from the crowd to dust him off and send him back on his way. that is my prayer for him. :ThmbUp:
we have to understand thats its not some boogey man (the banks) that is our problems. WE allowed all the safeguards to be removed from the system by voting the way we did. take a good look in the mirror, and vote to have all the safeguards put back so we don't have to go through this again.

[kid4rilla]

What I am surprised about is the lack of compassion. Listen, this guy did not purchase a house he couldn't afford AT THE TIME HE PURCHASED IT.

Afford it? That's an awfully high dollar home, regardless of income at the time. I know that is tough when all the "experts" are telling you what you can afford, but what if he would have purchased a home he could REALLY AFFORD when things were good? His situation wouldn't be so dire.

If after all of this he is still thinking "I did everything right" -- he's wrong. He was listening to the wrong folks.

He's obviously in a bad way, with the suicide talk and maybe when he gets right he can probably think back and find many decisions that were made that could have been better.

Whoever said previously to tell him that he is better off than 99.9% of the people who have inhabited the earth.......I like that. He's still alright. If he has to go "slum it" at Wal-Mart for a while then so be it.....his credentials will get him back in his field if he chooses when the time is right.

[Dave Schwartz]

Show of hands, now... how many of you could go without income for two years and not dip into your savings, 401k, IRA?

So, Kid, what is your answer to the above question?

You could handle this, right?

You could go two years without income and everything would be fine for you?

[kid4rilla]

So, Kid, what is your answer to the above question?

You could handle this, right?

You could go two years without income and everything would be fine for you?

Fine? What does that mean? If that is how it went down, then i'd have no choice but to make it "fine".....whatever it took.

I do find it hard to believe that if he couldn't get work in his field for 2 years, he has to go the wal-mart route. There's only the two extremes? 6 figures or minimum wage? I know it's tough out there, but I'm skeptical to that.

If he had made the decision to "downsize" into a home paid off for $200K as opposed to his home upside down his nut could be pared down quite nicely for bare bones. He was used to living like an engineer, but he ain't an engineer right now. I know all the smart guys were telling him his slice of the American Pie should of course be bigger, but they were selling him a mortgage.

That would be tough for me, but I wouldn't talk about suicide. Too much cool shit happens randomly in this life to give up the chance to see tomorrow, regardless of today.

He, like everyone, didn't do everything right.

[bisket]

the answer to dave's question in my case would most definitely be no i couldn't go without income for 2 years. his grief is understandable.

[Jay Trotter]

Dave, my heart goes out to your friend and to you as well, as this obviously weighs on you!

I'm more than a little surprised by the lack of compassion expressed towards your friend's situation. Unless one has walked in his shoes should we really be judging his character or fortitude! From the little you've shared he seems like a stand-up quality citizen and his situation simply illustrates the pain and suffering being experienced during the current economic climate.

A person with $200,000 equity in a $500,000 house and the ability to make those payments surely can't be judged to be less than in any way! He was "doing everything right" and then the bottom falls out! Who can't relate to that!

As a society we likely are better off than 99% of the world but we all know nobody takes going backwards well. For the most part, we need to keep moving forward to feel positive about ourselves. How many people choose to stay with a company after being demoted! Not many I bet. To go from being an Electrical Engineer to working at Wal-Mart would take a heavy toll on most of us.

As an aside, I've just finished reading three books: The Secret History of Lazard Freres; The Big Short; and Liar's Poker. All three books are about the large investment banks like Salomon Brothers, Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley!

If you want to discover the real truth about Wall Street and how they value us, the small investor, read these books! They literally laugh at us. So, for one to feel betrayed and disillusioned about trying to do the right thing throughout one's life and to see it all melt away in an instant is tough.

The "suicide" talk is more likely a cry for help than a run up to the actual thing. As Grits stated, "Your ability to listen and care may have far more impact on him than you know". Keep being there for him!

Anyway, that's my two cents worth on the matter -- I'm sure I'll be judged to compassionate for many here but unless you've walked in his shoes.....

[Greyfox]

There’s too much we don’t know about this individual. .

Indulto You are right. There is a lot that we don't know about this person.
But what we do know is this would be a very terrifying situation if any of us were to find ourselves in it.

We also know that for 95 % of all suicidal individuals,
SUICIDE = HOPELESSNESS

Typically suicidal individuals think that all is lost, nothing is working, everything is against them. They feel "as if" they are in a "cave of darkness."
Eventhough he is living today better than 95 % of his ancestors and other parts of the planet (as Game Theory said), telling a suicidal individual that won't matter a twit. Suicidal individuals have difficulty counting their blessings.

My advice to you Dave is:

1. Explore any threads of hope that this man might be clinging to. A man smart enough to be an electrical engineer has talents that go beyond that specialty. He may not be able to see them at this time, but cross lateral talents may be there and need to be drawn out. The possibility of relocating, starting a small business, consulting, and so on should be explored.
The bottom line is help him look for hope.

2. Encourage him to seek Professional help. You are good at what you do, but aside from being supportive and empathic, my guess is that your former client needs professional help. (Of course he should be sent towards a professional support group that won't bleed him of what limited resources that he has. Professionals who require expensive bills to be paid would simply add to his problem, not help it. If he is religious, a Minister might provide support.)

3. The extended family can be powerful in providing support. He has to share his plight with them.

[GameTheory]

The "suicide" talk is more likely a cry for help than a run up to the actual thing. As Grits stated, "Your ability to listen and care may have far more impact on him than you know". Keep being there for him!That's right. Despite my own and others advice to "look on the bright side" or "get some perspective" the best thing you can say to a person like that is, "I understand" or even something as bold as "I don't blame you -- I'd want to kill myself too" That's what they are looking for -- pure empathy.

[Greyfox]

"I don't blame you -- I'd want to kill myself too" That's what they are looking for -- pure empathy.

That may be empathy, but it's not therapeutic. In fact, it may be antitherapeutic and perceived as implicit permission to do it.

[JustRalph]

yes china has its hand in this. i know what an electrical engineer is. my uncle worked for our area utility for 48 years as an eletrical engineer. that was actually going to be my next post... the fact that daves friend could have also worked for a utility. this sector of our economy has also experienced problems due to deregulation. this particular idea was part of the contract with america along with president clinton endorsing it. prior to deregulating the utility industry these companies were not allowed by law to invest their earnings in other areas of the economy. utilities reported to the government how much they collected from consumers along with their expenditures. the government in turn set utility rates to always allow the utility companies to always make a profit. there's two reasons utilities were regulated. one being they provide a service that is understood every family needs. lets reinforce the idea that many families would freeze to death without the service, and is also a standard of living requirement that we can't do without! for this reason if utilities weren't regulated THEY COULD CHARGE WHATEVER THEY PLEASE FOR THE SERVICE!! the other reason utilities were regulated is because they use credit to purchase the eletricity and heating fuel from the generating plants. the fact that the utility could get into a vicarious financial situation if they invested the proceeds they collected for their electrical service unwisely was the basis for not allowing them outside investments. if the utility got into a vicarious financial situation our world would come to a stop so to speak. so basically the reasoning behind the regulations was because utilities provide a crucial service that need to be insulated from downward economic swings. ok so in 2008 the people that provide our energy needs could invest how they pleased and could CHARGE ANYTHING THEY DAM WELL PLEASED FOR THE SERVICE TO MAKE UP FOR LAPSES IN JUDGEMENT to keep their credit ratings high enough to provide electricity to me and you. well guess what most utility companies invested in? yup the same real estate backed securities ralphs buddy relied so heavily on. see the reason so many crucial investment portfolios bought real estate securities is because prior to 2002 real estate loans were heavily regulated because real estate is the foundation of our financial system. real estate securities were safe because unworthy loan applicants were not permited to recieve loans from the banks by the government.
so now badda bing!! badda boom!! real estate values plummet and one of the most crucial infrastructure entities (utilities) is caught in it on two levels. one: they are heavily invested in the real estate securities so they their portfolios nose dive, and two: they can't get credit to purchase fuel and electricity to provide to you. this is why it was so important to prop all the banks up. so this is the other way all this could have effected dave's friend.
now if dave's friend was an eletrical engineer for say general electric.... a chinaman is doing his old job for 5 bucks a day :rolleyes:
dave tell your friend his cross to bare is the result of our sins. just like when jesus carried our cross to be nailed to it; when your friend stumbles and falls and the cross becomes to much to bare. there will be people (like you) that come from the crowd to dust him off and send him back on his way. that is my prayer for him. :ThmbUp:
we have to understand thats its not some boogey man (the banks) that is our problems. WE allowed all the safeguards to be removed from the system by voting the way we did. take a good look in the mirror, and vote to have all the safeguards put back so we don't have to go through this again.

you gotta be kidding......... I am supposed to read this?

[kid4rilla]

you gotta be kidding......... I am supposed to read this?

:lol:

if that was scrawled on toilet paper, he'd get hauled in with a strait jacket on.

[GameTheory]

That may be empathy, but it's not therapeutic. In fact, it may be antitherapeutic and perceived as implicit permission to do it.
Which is why I called it bold, because most people would think that way and continue to contradict the person, telling them its OK, its OK, but what they are hearing is "No one understands because it is not f'ing OK!" That makes them MORE despondent because they are only getting what they perceive to be BS and no one is actually listening to them because if they were they couldn't help but agree. (e.g. "If you really saw it my way you would agree because that is the way I see it.")

Someone AGREEING with them can be tremendously therapeutic. THEN you move on from there. By the way, I come by this from something I read by a therapist who deals with suicidal people, I'm not just making shit up. (I doubt Dave's friend actually is suicidal, or he probably wouldn't even have brought it up. If you think someone is really suicidal, get them professional help whether they want it or not -- the truth is none of us would really know just the right things to say.)

[Greyfox]

Someone AGREEING with them can be tremendously therapeutic. THEN you move on from there.

We agree on that.
Agreeing with someone re: the pain they are experiencing is empathic and therapeutic.
Agreeing with them on the solution of suicide is not.
Most suicidal individuals, except the psychotic and quadriplegics (or other severe ailments), really don't want to die. So being supportive of the pain and despair is fine.
Saying "Yes I'd want to kill myself too" would not be therapeutic.
1. Because it may give implicit permission
2. It may be a lie. In fact it most likely, for most people, would be a lie. (If you think that the suicidal person won't pick that up, you are wrong.)

Support the pain = Yes
Support the solution of suicide = Nope

[Dave Schwartz]

Although I have stressed it several times in this thread, it is not about suicide. But since it has come up so many times I will address what I did.

1. I did empathize as well as sympathize with him. I explained that he had lots of reasons to be depressed and that he was not the only one in this situation.

2. I did discuss faith. (He is not currently a person of faith, though is certainly more open to it at this point in his life.)

3. I did recommend that he get help, including where to get it.

4. I explained my personal limitations and responsibilities to his playing of the suicide card. (That is, it is not my responsibility to talk him into staying alive.)

5. I explained to him that generally playing the suicide card was a cry for help; a way for people to know that he is crying out for someone to notice. He agreed.


IMHO, this man IS a man of courage. He chose the job at Wal-Mart because he was disgusted with being on the dole. He told me that in the last 2 years he has sent out over 1,000 resumes, with hardly any hits.

In other words, this man is not a "dead beat." He also is not a gambler. He stopped playing the horses about 10-12 years ago. Said he wished he could
play again but simply cannot afford it.


I find that thinking about this man's position makes me angry at the system. You know, times are a little difficult at our house these days, just as it is with many people on this forum. But we have it way better than most. The biggest difference between my friend and I is that I have this thing called HOPE (not to mention an income).

One of the things I charged him to do was to FIND A WAY to get hope back in his life. He must find a path for his future. I believe that with a path towards something... anything... life will instantly improve.

Consider the "Is it Possible?" thread that most of you are well-familiar with by now. Isn't that really what PK Trucker is looking for? I contend that it is.

And when you look for hope, the logical place to look is in the places that have held hope for you in the past. Not necessarily the best place to look, but it is the one you know.

In my friend's case, I have challenged him to find a NEW path. If it includes engineering then it needs to be something other than an engineering "job." He has already become convinced that their is no job for him as an engineer, so let it go. Look elsewhere.

He also asked if I thought betting might be his solution. Although he was a rather advanced recreational player, I could never suggest that he begin such an endeavor when he was low on money.


BTW, just so you know, I asked his permission before ever starting this thread.


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[GameTheory]

We agree on that.
Agreeing with someone re: the pain they are experiencing is empathic and therapeutic.
Agreeing with them on the solution of suicide is not.Fair enough, although I don't think my statement agrees with it as a solution -- it is agreeing with the feeling, not saying, "Yeah, that's what I'd do" but rather saying "That's what I would FEEL like", or "I understand why you would want to kill yourself -- it really does seem like you are totally screwed." And I certainly don't think you should lie, but I think most people hold back from saying anything negative even though that's what they are thinking. In other words, most people trying to be comforting ARE LYING and the person knows that and it makes them even more despondent.

It is bold, and it is counterintuitive. You are not saying anything comforting or even telling them that they have a way out other than suicide. (Not yet, anyway.) Nevertheless, it is my understanding that the average suicidal person (obviously, all cases are different and if you're talking to a truly suicidal person you're playing with fire no matter what you say) will at that point not think, "Thank you for your implicit permission, where is my gun?" but rather, "THANK YOU! That's what I've been saying. I am completely screwed, my life sucks, and I have no hope. GLAD someone finally gets it!" Now, the conversation is far from over at this point, but now this person is actually listening to you instead of hearing "blah blah blah" thinking you couldn't possibly understand, and you've just given them a glimmer of hope by the fact that they recognize that you are really hearing them.

When the rug has been pulled out from under you and your life is in turmoil, feeling like you want to die is COMMON and NORMAL, but is never admitted because people are afraid to even think it. (And of course, it doesn't mean you actually want to die, and generally passes.)

[WinterTriangle]

Now, through no fault of my own beyond believing in the American Dream, I have nothing.

I'd like to offer another perspective.

I was brought up frugal....real old fashioned in other words. Live a tad below your means and save for a rainy day.

I bought into the American Dream, but not "the credit card / debt version of the American Dream."

My friends laughed at me for years....now, I understand financial gurus get paid big bucks for giving seminars on this. :lol:

I have a credit card, but only use for dire emergencies. Anything I can't pay for, I don't own.

As a result of not paying interest on stuff I can't afford, I have no mortgage, own my truck outright, etc. I have *no* debt.

In order to keep my credit rating going, every once in a while, when I need a washing machine or someting, I ask my local hardware store owner to let me pay it out, since they report. I have already taken the cash out of the bank to make these *payments*. :)

The American Dream works great.......as long as you don't borrow your a$$ into oblivion. My grandparents were from old country, owned a nice house, car, and a business. Didn't use credit cards.

[WinterTriangle]

edit: above post to add:

I just have *never* grasped the concept of having stuff I can't pay for? :confused: Maybe somebody can explain that to me.

As for suicide, "stuff" isn't worth your life, or your health.

Doing "bad" in many nations the world over is having to comb the garbage dump, all day, barefooted, for a peice of string that might buy you a potatoe for your family's soup that evening.

I grew up in the northeast, and the wealthiest families (old money) do not live like the noveaux-riche, with all the blaring acountrements that pass for success these days. Nothing wrong with having a good set of classic clothing from LL Bean or somewhere that will last for years. I still have my duck boots from when I was in college. Look great! Keep the water off my feet.

NOt to come off as callous, yes Dave, I know several aerospace engineers who are unemployed. We are talking our best and brightest. People who are on first name basis with astronauts and high level degrees in physics.

I have *no* idea why our best and brightest are not wanted in our society.

Most of 'em had hobbies, like flying, and can give lessons for money, and a few other things to keep body and soul together.

[bisket]

i too live below my means. my wife and i considered upgrading when all the houses our block doubled in value. half the block sold their houses in the matter of months. the person i most looked to and emulated while growing up was my grandfather who was 15 when the depression started. he was very guarded in how he invested and spent his money. he always said it (the depression) would happen again.... that it was human nature. my wife and i discussed selling and buying a new house. i told her that i thought our house was overpriced and anything we bought would most likely be overpriced also. i played it safe. when everything happened in 2008 my grandfather had passed 2 years before. i was very grateful for his counsel that effected our decision. we have been able to pay for our twin sons college without taking big loans. my retirement account is currently 5k below what i've invested over the years, but i consider myself lucky. although unlike dave's friend i have been fortunate to continue working. my salary has decreased the past few years though, but i'm not continuously worried about money.

dave he's lucky to have a friend like you. if you met me you wouldn't know that i'm very spiritual and religious. i'm not afraid to lay it out there when the situation calls for it though. when someone begins to consider suicide they need to consider how important they are to themselves and others. knowing god gives us self worth, and helps us to see how important we are in the scheme of things. prayer changes things.

[GameTheory]

I just have *never* grasped the concept of having stuff I can't pay for? :confused: Maybe somebody can explain that to me. I see that, I want that, I can take it home if I show you this piece of plastic? Cool, now I'm watching movies on a really big screen, and have a bill to pay every month. Reminds me of an old episode of Roseanne -- the John Goodman character got a job selling hot tubs (cause he was broke) and some dude that obviously couldn't afford it wanted to buy one on the installment plan. Goodman gently suggests that maybe he should try to live within his means, and the guy says, "If I lived within my means, my life would suck!"

Some things we hardly ever pay for any other way -- houses, most cars, etc.

[Greyfox]

Although I have stressed it several times in this thread, it is not about suicide. But since it has come up so many times I will address what I did.


Ahem,....in your very first post, you said:

"In dead seriousness, he said that he may very well take his own life. What do you say to someone like this?"

**************************************

You have anger towards the current system that has put this person and many like him in the situation he is in.
Many of us hold similar anger.

You asked us what we would say to this man.
We've given our views.
I think that the way you handled the situation was good. Your advice to him was solid.
If this thread isn't about suicide, it sure looked that way from the sentence I quoted above that you wrote.
If you wanted us to talk about anger towards the system, maybe you could have asked a different question.

[Dave Schwartz]

I was brought up frugal....real old fashioned in other words. Live a tad below your means and save for a rainy day.

So was he. He told me that his credit card debt amounted to under $2,000.


If you wanted us to talk about anger towards the system, maybe you could have asked a different question.

Perhaps I should have used the suicide comment as the first line instead of the last.


You have anger towards the current system that has put this person and many like him in the situation he is in.
Many of us hold similar anger.

My point, precisely. This really was the question HE was asking. I know that this guy did it far more right than most people I know; better than I have done. And he is broke.

IMHO, the system IS broken. So much so that even people who are relatively successful (and deserve to be successful) are taking a beating. What this man said about having to bail out the very people that caused this has really got me to thinking how wrong things really are.

I fear that there is no solution for us. Oh, we can make a comeback. We'll find a way. That's what winners do. But the system will still be broken. I am thinking about purchasing precious metals.


Dave

[Greyfox]

That's what winners do. But the system will still be broken. I am thinking about purchasing precious metals.


Dave

When paper money is worth nothing, gold will zoom. Rare colored diamonds is also probably going to be a hot commodity.

In the meanwhile, I hope that your friend checks in on this thread as we're pulling for him.

[GameTheory]

And while we are on happy subjects, you can expect another meltdown in the next five years in the private equity sector. These are the guys that buy up companies using other people's money (selling them paper very much like the mortgage-backed securities) and pump them up so they look like solid investments when they are in fact ticking time-bombs. We'll see a bunch of these companies tank in the next few years, taking those investments with them, and people will say, "Heck, I didn't even know I was invested in such things."

[bisket]

lets take a look at how our thought process towards governing has gone through cycles, and how it coalesces with our economic cycles. the "modern" economy essentially began with developments in manufacturing in the late 1800's and early 1900's. during that period we developed ways to make goods faster than we needed and could use them. so what would happen is there would be an economic boom for a period of time while we were making goods, but eventually we would make to much. then workers were laid off for long periods, and the value of the goods would plummet. so this was a double whammy. manufacturing companies couldn't sell goods at a price to be profitable, and wages would stay stagnant for long periods.
well we had the mother of all these boom periods in the 1920's, and the depression was the result. this is when roosevelt put the fed in charge of the economy, and all mortgage regulations started. labor unions were given laws to help them develop so wages could be held at a level that workers could survive and live a good life. the idea being that as long as the middle class had a few extra bucks there would be demand for goods, and manufacturing would always have customers. the idea was that every sector of the economy was put at a level playing field. so the economic competition would help every sector remain sustainable and profitable. good old checks and balances. so in essence regulations on the economy was the philosophy of all the politicians. our political discourse was whether something should be regulated or not. well it took from the late 1930's to the 1970's for the "regulated economy" political philosophy to run its course. we eventually over regulated our economy. businesses didn't have enough freedom to make profits etc. well along came the "reagan revolution" and made it possible for business to start making profits. this was when the "unregulated economy" became the basis for our political philosophy. as regulations were stripped, and the economy began to grow. well this cycle ran its course until we eventually deregulated our economy to the point the safeguards were removed and the fall of 2008 happened. a couple of things happened in the 1990's that lead to 2008. one thing was clinton made the deal with greenspan: if i shrink the deficit you hold interest rates down. this was the beginning of the end!!! why? the fed was set up to NOT BE POLITICISED!! it was the feds responsibility to do things that aren't popular to keep our economy running right. this notion that its up to the president to oversee our economy is one of the worst things we can do as a nation. it is the feds job to do that because keeping the economy humming requires someone that is not popular. they have to do the things that pisses the market off!! like raising interest rates. one of the other things that took place in the 1990's which lead to 2008, was deregulating utilities.
since voters became of the mindset that its up to the president to keep the economy running. bush deregulated the mortgage industry so he could keep voters happy, and get relected. bush only did what we the voters demanded of him. so we have ourselves to blame as much as bush or obama.
what i'm trying to get across is that its not one presidents fault or one parties fault for 2008. we went along this path together. just like to much of a good thing lead to the 1970's..... to much of a good thing lead to 2008!!! lets get going into the "regulated economy" cycle!! eventually we'll overegulate again, but look at all the fun we'll have until that happens :D let the fed do his job, but most importantly hope our presidents get back to allowing the fed to do his job.

[BCOURTNEY]

...
In dead seriousness, he said that he may very well take his own life. What do you say to someone like this?
...


Sell everything and move to Quito, Ecuador. Stop the rat race.
$60,000 = 10 years of living. No more problems and a tropical climate.
Average age of death is better than the US. The big concern for the day
is what to eat for dinner.

B

[PaceAdvantage]

Not me Dave. I must say that I'm shocked that you are surprised by the lack of compassion shown here. Thats really funny (sic) if you think about it with this group.I shake my head at a comment like this. You know absolutely not of what you speak.

[PaceAdvantage]

lets take a look at how our thought process towards governing has gone through cycles, and how it coalesces with our economic cycles. the "modern" economy essentially began with developments in manufacturing in the late 1800's and early 1900's. during that period we developed ways to make goods faster than we needed and could use them. so what would happen is there would be an economic boom for a period of time while we were making goods, but eventually we would make to much. then workers were laid off for long periods, and the value of the goods would plummet. so this was a double whammy. manufacturing companies couldn't sell goods at a price to be profitable, and wages would stay stagnant for long periods.
well we had the mother of all these boom periods in the 1920's, and the depression was the result. this is when roosevelt put the fed in charge of the economy, and all mortgage regulations started. labor unions were given laws to help them develop so wages could be held at a level that workers could survive and live a good life. the idea being that as long as the middle class had a few extra bucks there would be demand for goods, and manufacturing would always have customers. the idea was that every sector of the economy was put at a level playing field. so the economic competition would help every sector remain sustainable and profitable. good old checks and balances. so in essence regulations on the economy was the philosophy of all the politicians. our political discourse was whether something should be regulated or not. well it took from the late 1930's to the 1970's for the "regulated economy" political philosophy to run its course. we eventually over regulated our economy. businesses didn't have enough freedom to make profits etc. well along came the "reagan revolution" and made it possible for business to start making profits. this was when the "unregulated economy" became the basis for our political philosophy. as regulations were stripped, and the economy began to grow. well this cycle ran its course until we eventually deregulated our economy to the point the safeguards were removed and the fall of 2008 happened. a couple of things happened in the 1990's that lead to 2008. one thing was clinton made the deal with greenspan: if i shrink the deficit you hold interest rates down. this was the beginning of the end!!! why? the fed was set up to NOT BE POLITICISED!! it was the feds responsibility to do things that aren't popular to keep our economy running right. this notion that its up to the president to oversee our economy is one of the worst things we can do as a nation. it is the feds job to do that because keeping the economy humming requires someone that is not popular. they have to do the things that pisses the market off!! like raising interest rates. one of the other things that took place in the 1990's which lead to 2008, was deregulating utilities.
since voters became of the mindset that its up to the president to keep the economy running. bush deregulated the mortgage industry so he could keep voters happy, and get relected. bush only did what we the voters demanded of him. so we have ourselves to blame as much as bush or obama.
what i'm trying to get across is that its not one presidents fault or one parties fault for 2008. we went along this path together. just like to much of a good thing lead to the 1970's..... to much of a good thing lead to 2008!!! lets get going into the "regulated economy" cycle!! eventually we'll overegulate again, but look at all the fun we'll have until that happens :D let the fed do his job, but most importantly hope our presidents get back to allowing the fed to do his job.Nobody is reading this mess of a post...no paragraphs...not even a CAPITAL letter to be seen...keep pumping out replies formatted like this, and they are likely to be simply deleted on sight.

You've been warned.

[Dave Schwartz]

Mr. Bisket,

With all due respect, if you expect me (us?) to read what you write, you're going to have to add a carriage return once in awhile.

It is just too much work for these tired old eyes to read what you write.


Best to you.


Dave Schwartz

[bigmack]

Lean times mean good folk are making fine product and having trouble moving the merchandise.

There are tons of companies that would pay a Kings ransom to help move their product. Don't give me that, "But I've never sold" - ANYBODY CAN SELL!

I could go out there tomorrow with $1000 and through Craigslist and a few savvy marketing decisions be making $1800/mo steady within a month.

People need to be creative. Technology is in place for nickels!

Think locally, nationally, whatever. Just think about it.

Money is all around us.

[GameTheory]

Lean times mean good folk are making fine product and having trouble moving the merchandise.

There are tons of companies that would pay a Kings ransom to help move their product. Don't give me that, "But I've never sold" - ANYBODY CAN SELL!

I could go out there tomorrow with $1000 and through Craigslist and a few savvy marketing decisions be making $1800/mo steady within a month.

People need to be creative. Technology is in place for nickels!

Think locally, nationally, whatever. Just think about it.

Money is all around us.In the last year or so I had to get busy as the economy of the last few years had taken away 80% of our business and it became clear it was never coming back. I found that activity = $$$$. (Previously, we had a decent income without doing all that much, which is the way we designed our business.) If I got off my butt and tried to make things happen then things would happen. (Sending out resumes is not getting off your butt, btw -- that's the first step that fails for pretty much everybody -- then you get busy.) And now, though I'm not flourishing by any means, am at least paying the bills and am free enough to work on projects that will pay off later. I would be flourishing if the situation wasn't so bad in the first place -- I've got business debts and a pile of medical bills since I haven't been so healthy the last few years and then I broke my leg 6 months ago which added to them. So I've got thousands going out every month that I could otherwise use for productive purposes if I wasn't paying old bills.

My situation was worse than Dave's friend, by the way, so if I've "lacked compassion" maybe that was the reason. Now I assume I'm much younger than him, which probably makes a big difference because he is looking at what seems to him a bleak future. And you can't exactly say that I always "did it the right way" because I didn't, but then again I never believed "doing it the right way" as it sounds like he did was the safe and secure thing to do anyway.

[RaceBookJoe]

Mr. Bisket,

With all due respect, if you expect me (us?) to read what you write, you're going to have to add a carriage return once in awhile.

It is just too much work for these tired old eyes to read what you write.


Best to you.


Dave Schwartz

atleastheusedspacesbetweeneachwordhaharbj:)

[kid4rilla]

My situation was worse than Dave's friend, by the way, so if I've "lacked compassion" maybe that was the reason. Now I assume I'm much younger than him, which probably makes a big difference because he is looking at what seems to him a bleak future. And you can't exactly say that I always "did it the right way" because I didn't, but then again I never believed "doing it the right way" as it sounds like he did was the safe and secure thing to do anyway.


That was my point. There simply isn't a right way, there are only different ways and you gotta get lucky. A lot of his hopelessness comes from that the way he knew led him to where he is now, and he doesn't know any other ways.

The tough part is getting your satisfaction from somewhere other than the size of your home and the score in your account. I started a small business a few years ago that is modestly successful. When we began there were tough times and I worked my tail off every day. Often, the payoff was not commensurate to the work I put in and it would eat at me.

After a while, I realized that if the business ended quickly with little to no return, or lasted 20 years I wouldn't let that be the DEFINITION of my success.

We took a calculated risk on getting in an industry that looked good and busted my tail consistently to create a very nice business structure to do impressive work. I will be able to look back whenever and however the end comes, and say that I did all I could do.

I'm trying to instill this in my son. When he plays baseball and has a bad night at the plate he feels that he failed. I want him to know if he does all he can and the best he can, and plays thankfully for the opportunity - THAT IS ALL HE CAN DO AND HE HAS SUCCEEDED.

So, if your friend can look back and truly say that he did all he could do.....he didn't fail.


And the only real problem is the damn mortgage. He could have bought something out right :)

[Dave Schwartz]

atleastheusedspacesbetweeneachwordhaharbj

:lol: :ThmbUp:

[JustRalph]

Hey Dave,,,,,check out this call Limbaugh took today....... I wasn't listening but saw the transcript on his website..........another Elect. Engineer

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_070210/content/01125113.guest.html

[toetoe]

So, Kid, what is your answer to the above question?

You could handle this, right?

You could go two years without income and everything would be fine for you?



Dave,

Surely you don't believe Spankmonkey ... :confused: .

Are you saying the guy was a volunteer at SprawlMart ? Zero income ? I'm compassionate but confused.

[toetoe]

Nobody is reading this mess of a post...no paragraphs...not even a CAPITAL letter to be seen...keep pumping out replies formatted like this, and they are likely to be simply deleted on sight.

You've been warned.



Wearzher compassion, PA ? :rolleyes: .

[Dave Schwartz]

Toe,

I don't know why you would be confused. He chose to get a job at Wal-Mart rather than draw unemployment, even though the unemployment would pay more.

(Of course, it is possible that he thinks/knows his unemployment may run out.)

What is the confusion?


BTW, here in Reno there is a billboard on the freeway that says Wal-Mart needs warehouse workers. Starting pay is almost $16 per hour, or about twice what they'd pay in the store. The catch? It is in Fernley - a 35 mile commute.



Dave

[Greyfox]

The catch? It is in Fernley - a 35 mile commute.

Dave

I know lots of people who commute farther than that.
Or, some in big cities, spend more than 35 minutes going and coming daily to work.

[Dave Schwartz]

That's true. But in a community where nobody commutes that is a big deal.

[Space Monkey]

Originally Posted by Space Monkey
Not me Dave. I must say that I'm shocked that you are surprised by the lack of compassion shown here. Thats really funny (sic) if you think about it with this group.
I shake my head at a comment like this. You know absolutely not of what you speak.

Oh really PA. I don't know who Dave is referring to as not having compassion, but I know where I am. I'm in Off Topic- General and this place is littered with countless people who don't give a damn about anybody or anything except their wallet. People who don't want to pay 2 cents more in taxes if it means helping somebody less fortunate. Sorry if my previous post inadvertantly mischaracterized anyone here.

[bigmack]

Space MonkeyI'm in Off Topic- General and this place is littered with countless people who don't give a damn about anybody or anything except their wallet. People who don't want to pay 2 cents more in taxes if it means helping somebody less fortunate.
Hey, aren't you the one who flew in here and was all frightened about Tea Party people? :lol: I thought you swore off this area? :p

Look, Depak Chopra, you were wrong then and you're wrong now. You just lack the intellect to discuss issues that are more complex than a knee-jerk "Awww, they need money, let's get it from someone else"

Here I figured you for an adolescent. Turns out you've got some age. Now show us you've learned more from your experiences than running around pigeon holing people to fit your childlike notions.

[Space Monkey]

Hey, aren't you the one who flew in here and was all frightened about Tea Party people? I thought you swore off this area?

Look, Depak Chopra, you were wrong then and you're wrong now. You just lack the intellect to discuss issues that are more complex than a knee-jerk "Awww, they need money, let's get it from someone else"

Here I figured you for an adolescent. Turns out you've got some age. Now show us you've learned more from your experiences than running around pigeon holing people to fit your childlike notions

Frightened?? Depak Chopra??
I have been reading threads here that interest me. Non political. But sometimes I run into some content that crosses that line. Your response is classic. Personal attacks with no substance. Frightened? Lack of intellect? Adolescent? Childlike? And you wonder why I don't waste my time with people like you anymore? All you have to do is read any of my posts around here and you'll usually find an intelligent :rolleyes: response from the right making fun of spankmonkey etc,, :lol: . Your post fits right in brainiac.

I don't have to show you anything. I already have gone that route. The hypocritical right wing that was nowhere to be found when Republican Presidents were spending our $ like drunken sailors and running huge deficits every term. Putting 2 wars on the credit card while giving huge taxbreaks to the top 2%. Now all of a sudden, you all cry about spending when your policies have run this country into the ground. Been there done that. Nothing gets through to rw toolland.

[Overlay]

It was the Fed's responsibility to do things that aren't popular to keep our economy running right. This notion that it's up to the president to oversee our economy is one of the worst things we can do as a nation. It is the Fed's job to do that because keeping the economy humming requires someone that is not popular. They have to do the things that piss the market off, like raising interest rates.

But only Congress and the President have the authority (but apparently not the courage) (and that applies to Republicans and Democrats) when it comes to the two most unpopular actions of all -- raising taxes and cutting spending -- both of which will at some point have to be done. We cannot keep living off the government printing press and paying an ever-growing burden of debt interest (not to even mention failing to pay down the debt itself) indefinitely.

[Space Monkey]

But only Congress and the President have the authority (but apparently not the courage) (and that applies to Republicans and Democrats) when it comes to the two most unpopular actions of all -- raising taxes and cutting spending -- both of which will at some point have to be done. We cannot keep living off the government printing press and paying an ever-growing burden of debt interest (not to even mention failing to pay down the debt itself) indefinitely

100% in agreement.

FYI, even though I've changed my affiliation back to Ind, I got a survey from the DNC. I rated Obama Fair and Poor on every question (although I consider him 1000 times better than what McCain/Palin would have brought us). The Senate is our governments biggest problem. The 2 parties do work together somewhat in the House to help the country. The Senate needs some housecleaning, MOSTLY on the right, IMO. If ever a party needs new leadership and a revamped platform, its the GOP.

[JustRalph]

Conservatives screamed about Bush's spending too......... do a google search you can find many examples.

On this board he got filleted for the Medicare prescription drug plan etc. I know, you think that fits your narrative........... but Bush was called out on it many many times. Including the Iraq war.

Mack makes a great point.........you can't blame Bush for the war Spending without blaming the Dems who signed off on it ......you can't have your cake and ............

[johnhannibalsmith]

Oh really PA. I don't know who Dave is referring to as not having compassion, but I know where I am. I'm in Off Topic- General and this place is littered with countless people who don't give a damn about anybody or anything except their wallet. People who don't want to pay 2 cents more in taxes if it means helping somebody less fortunate. Sorry if my previous post inadvertantly mischaracterized anyone here.

Didn't I receive a tongue lashing for quoting myself once? I believe you termed it "extremely poor form". I hate to take a thread off the rails here, but I gasped in horror when I saw a post from you in which you quoted yourself.

[PaceAdvantage]

Oh really PA. I don't know who Dave is referring to as not having compassion, but I know where I am. I'm in Off Topic- General and this place is littered with countless people who don't give a damn about anybody or anything except their wallet. People who don't want to pay 2 cents more in taxes if it means helping somebody less fortunate. Sorry if my previous post inadvertantly mischaracterized anyone here.Look what this thread has turned into now...and why is that? Because you felt the need to bring politics into a non-political thread by applying what you THINK you've read in some political posts onto the ENTIRETY of this off topic section (which encompasses a few other sections other than politics).

Like I said before, you know not of what you type.

I could pull up multiple PERSONAL examples of my own compassion regarding just this website alone, but I'd rather not go that route. If you open your eyes, you'll see...that's the key.

[Space Monkey]

I just busted out laughing when I read Dave's comment about a lack of compassion here. Sorry, but its basically the same crew whether its a political thread or not. One of the problems of message board land is when you try not to get into personal attacks, you run the risk of alienating people you didn't intend to.

I find it amusing that I can post on non controversial threads and almost every time I check back, some rw tool with a middle school mentality will take some cheap at me. Like make fun of my name :lol: and God forbid someone remotely agrees with me, they are questioned with amazement. "Don't tell me you agree with Space Monkey" was one comment. I'm still waiting for the day when you will
call 1,,JUST 1 of them out for their childish behavior. Obama's not afraid of alienating his base, don't worry you'll be fine :D

[Space Monkey]

Didn't I receive a tongue lashing for quoting myself once? I believe you termed it "extremely poor form". I hate to take a thread off the rails here, but I gasped in horror when I saw a post from you in which you quoted yourself.
Yesterday 10:51 PM

Help me out here johnny. How am I quoting myself? I stated my case and apologized if I offended any innocent parties. Gasping in horror?? :confused: You have to be kidding. Don't recall the post you're referring to. It had to be many months ago.

[johnhannibalsmith]

Help me out here johnny. How am I quoting myself? I stated my case and apologized if I offended any innocent parties. Gasping in horror?? :confused: You have to be kidding. Don't recall the post you're referring to. It had to be many months ago.

Yes sir, it was months ago - it was posted in the SPORTS thread I believe and had to do with Around The Horn or whatever that show is. If you go back a page (maybe two) in this thread, you quoted one of your posts and part of a reply to it. The "gasping in horror" was obviously sarcasm as I was simply mocking the seriousness of your original tone in that way back thread. I'm not terribly bothered by any of this, other than to remember way back when to a time when it seemed that you went out of your way to "take a cheap shot at me" (borrowing from an earlier post in this thread by you) in avoidance of the subject debate.

Carry on with the matter at hand; taking threads off-topic is indeed "poor form" and I don't wish to be responsible for doing so any more than I have by turning this into a thread about Space Monkey.

Edited to note: If you truly doubt/dispute my claims, now that I learned how to search forums, I found it: http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=866509&postcount=30

[Space Monkey]

No problem, I've learned that sarcasm is hard to get on boards without an icon. I do think you're reaching a little with bringing up that old Around the Horn post. I think I just piled on there. Quoting oneself is not something I criticize people for if my memory is correct.

I think I would feel better about this board if at least 1 time some of the people here that I butt heads with would agree with 1 thing I say. Like when I said I rated Obama fair or poor (another thread) on a DNC survey or when I said I support Charlie Crist. Anything I say that agrees with the right is met with silence. Shows a lack of character IMO. It also points out the
politicalpolarization this country is experiencing. I don't believe its a healthy situation.

Thats why I stopped coming here in the first place. My bad, I should stay away. It's pointless.

[Tom]

Thats why I stopped coming here in the first place. My bad, I should stay away. It's pointless.

You some kinda hostage here, or what?

[Space Monkey]

Another country heard from. You've been good Tommy. You're one of the few that haven't been taking immature cheap shots at me. But alas, you just couldn't resist joining the fun. Chalk up another personal putdown with no substance from the leader of the Tea Party, PA Chapter. Have a bad day at FL today? I played the 5th. Ran 2-3 behind the 20-1 winner :( .

[Space Monkey]

Edited to note: If you truly doubt/dispute my claims, now that I learned how to search forums, I found it: http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/...09&postcount=30

Hey Johnny, how about an intelligent comment on the substance of that post? What is your opinion of the Republican Party today as opposed to the Eisenhower era? Do you think the current GOP is doing as much for blue collar America as Republicans of the 50's? Do you disagree that Joe Brown is a racist?

Threads been hijacked, I know, but I think its been awhile and more than a few posters that have addressed the topic. Threads dead I guess. Please don't close it PA, I want to hear Johnny's response.

[bigmack]

You some kinda hostage here, or what?
Last we heard from this dolt he took the advice of his wife & daughter and high-tailed out of OT. He must have consulted a ouija board this time and it told him to come back. He should get a new ouija.

Mighty refreshing his taking the high road on 'going personal' :rolleyes:

I obviously was quoting the right wingnuts responses. No wonder you are so easily fooled by Fox and the rest. IQ test needed.
BOXCAR you are now in second place on the right wingnut wall of shame. Tom is still #1 with his "Bush kept us safe for 8 years before Obama got in office". Tom will be tough to beat, but if you keep it up, you have a chance.
You're one political sicko Tom.

[johnhannibalsmith]

Hey Johnny, how about an intelligent comment on the substance of that post? What is your opinion of the Republican Party today as opposed to the Eisenhower era? Do you think the current GOP is doing as much for blue collar America as Republicans of the 50's? Do you disagree that Joe Brown is a racist?

Threads been hijacked, I know, but I think its been awhile and more than a few posters that have addressed the topic. Threads dead I guess. Please don't close it PA, I want to hear Johnny's response.

Here's the thing - remember when you posted that list of dozens of issues and asked for an opinion of each? You had great fun when few people actually answered, repeatedly admonishing the forum for not addressing your post. So a few people, myself included, took the time to diligently reply to your post in sincerity. You seemed disappointed to get serious answers, because you never acknowedged many of our replies. Yet, you found time to continually stir the pot within that thread and elsewhere. I tried to communicate with you at the level at which you claimed to desire and it was made clear to me that I had wasted my time and that you desired rather to be combatative and then act victimized.

I'm not picking on you, I'm just answering honestly - I made the mistake of taking your political baits seriously once and I'm not inclined to repeat the mistake.

[thaskalos]

The notion that we enjoy a better standard of living than 99.9% of the world's population, is open to debate.

Yes...there are alot of war torn countries, with unstable governments, whose citizens would risk life and limb to escape from...and live here with us...but there are also plenty of countries who enjoy a standard of living MUCH higher than our own.

In more than a few of the European countries, the air and the water are cleaner, the life expectancy higher, the work week smaller, the crime rate lesser, education more advanced, health care more affordable, homelessness unheard of, and the citizens generally happier and more stress free.

And these countries are no-where near our country in wealth and might!

Our leaders have succeeded in convincing us that we are the envy of the civilized world - as far as standard of living is concerned...but that is far from the truth.

For many of us...the "American Dream" has turned into a nightmare...with no relief in sight!

[PaceAdvantage]

I'm still waiting for the day when you will
call 1,,JUST 1 of them out for their childish behavior.Been done many times already. The childish thing is thinking it hasn't....

[newtothegame]

The notion that we enjoy a better standard of living than 99.9% of the world's population, is open to debate.

Yes...there are alot of war torn countries, with unstable governments, whose citizens would risk life and limb to escape from...and live here with us...but there are also plenty of countries who enjoy a standard of living MUCH higher than our own.

In more than a few of the European countries, the air and the water are cleaner, the life expectancy higher, the work week smaller, the crime rate lesser, education more advanced, health care more affordable, homelessness unheard of, and the citizens generally happier and more stress free.

And these countries are no-where near our country in wealth and might!

Our leaders have succeeded in convincing us that we are the envy of the civilized world - as far as standard of living is concerned...but that is far from the truth.

For many of us...the "American Dream" has turned into a nightmare...with no relief in sight!

I was with you all the way till your last sentence. If its such a "nightmare", you have options. I am not trying to sound rude because i do believe alot of your post from above. I do believe that there are countries where standard of living may be better. But I also understand that I CHOOSE to live here, of MY OWN FREE WILL.

Would I like to see a few things change?? Sure thing. That's what our election process is about. Some of the things that we call "standard of living" are controlled by our elected officials. Others are controlled directly by ourselves...such as education etc etc. Now you can draw many conclussions as to which are controlled and by whom. But, I believe alot more in PERSONAL responsibility then blaming others.

Example: Had I gotten a better education, I might possibly have a better paying job. There are some on this forum who will tell you different. That the government somehow held them back from that education and therefore owes them something. Or that ALL people should earn the same monies.

Health wise, alot of ones problems results in THEIR own choice in lifestyles. Smog, and other pollutants...well thats where I need the elected officials to be REASONABLE and make choices that are in our best interest.

I guess what it all boils down too is choice. We all have a choice and in order to gain some better things, there are sacrifices that have to be made for those better things. If I want a better paying job, go my butt back to school and get a better education. There are many examples...but bottom line is we ALL have choices...and I choose HERE!

[WinterTriangle]

Dave, your friend is better off taking the job at Walmart than going on unemployment. When job hunting, it is ALWAYS better to show you have a job. It shows that you are hirable, and right away, even if it's not in your original field. I have no doubt something will turn up.

BTW, getting into "corporate" side of WM isn't bad. I fly in and out of *their* regional airport every so ofte, everyone on cell phones talking to WM corporate, all seem to be doing very well. He might want to look into some higher level jobs with them?????


As for best place to live... Got a few friends retiring from the Merchant Marines. Guys have been all over the world, and get off the ship for months at a time where they are, instead of going "home". Out of about 10 of them, only 1 is going to stay in the US.

I'm sure there are some neat places to live, depending on what you want your lifestyle to be like, and they have found some pretty nice places to be.

It IS a choice.

[thaskalos]

I was with you all the way till your last sentence. If its such a "nightmare", you have options. I am not trying to sound rude because i do believe alot of your post from above. I do believe that there are countries where standard of living may be better. But I also understand that I CHOOSE to live here, of MY OWN FREE WILL.

Would I like to see a few things change?? Sure thing. That's what our election process is about. Some of the things that we call "standard of living" are controlled by our elected officials. Others are controlled directly by ourselves...such as education etc etc. Now you can draw many conclussions as to which are controlled and by whom. But, I believe alot more in PERSONAL responsibility then blaming others.

Example: Had I gotten a better education, I might possibly have a better paying job. There are some on this forum who will tell you different. That the government somehow held them back from that education and therefore owes them something. Or that ALL people should earn the same monies.

Health wise, alot of ones problems results in THEIR own choice in lifestyles. Smog, and other pollutants...well thats where I need the elected officials to be REASONABLE and make choices that are in our best interest.

I guess what it all boils down too is choice. We all have a choice and in order to gain some better things, there are sacrifices that have to be made for those better things. If I want a better paying job, go my butt back to school and get a better education. There are many examples...but bottom line is we ALL have choices...and I choose HERE! Our choices are not always "ours" to make. Many things depend on the circumstances of our lives.

When the economic climate changes drastically, many people are caught in unpleasant situations that they cannot be blamed for. And not many are in the enviable position of "getting their butts back in school" to further their education, because of family responsibilities.

I am not complaining about myself, mind you. I am fortunate enough to be in a business that has remained, as of yet, largely unaffected by the economic "downturn" of the last few years. But I cannot take credit for my good fortune...I could have easily ended up like the man who is the subject of this thread.

What do YOU tell the man featured in this thread, whose life has been turned "upside-down", while our politicians are blaming one another for the mess we are in...and looking out for the interests of big business, instead of the interests of those who voted them into office?

What about all those people, with good educations and well paying jobs, who have been rendered unemployed...and who, due to age, are likely to remain so for the rest of their lives?

Should we remind them of their "personal responsibility", and ask them to stop "blaming others"?

Consider yourself fortunate to have the choices you have...because alot of people are not as lucky as you might be...

[newtothegame]

Our choices are not always "ours" to make. Many things depend on the circumstances of our lives.

When the economic climate changes drastically, many people are caught in unpleasant situations that they cannot be blamed for. And not many are in the enviable position of "getting their butts back in school" to further their education, because of family responsibilities.

I am not complaining about myself, mind you. I am fortunate enough to be in a business that has remained, as of yet, largely unaffected by the economic "downturn" of the last few years. But I cannot take credit for my good fortune...I could have easily ended up like the man who is the subject of this thread.

What do YOU tell the man featured in this thread, whose life has been turned "upside-down", while our politicians are blaming one another for the mess we are in...and looking out for the interests of big business, instead of the interests of those who voted them into office?

What about all those people, with good educations and well paying jobs, who have been rendered unemployed...and who, due to age, are likely to remain so for the rest of their lives?

Should we remind them of their "personal responsibility", and ask them to stop "blaming others"?

Consider yourself fortunate to have the choices you have...because alot of people are not as lucky as you might be...

First...do I feel for the family or gentleman in which this thread was started? Sure do. But, I am not as "fortuneate" as you may think. I am fortuneate from the aspect that I am better off then a few others I know but that was all earned by me and in some cases, their choices not to do more. Which is fine.
Now I again am not speaking directly about the gent on which this thread was started but I will end with this one statment......
I am terribly glad that our founding fathers and immigrants who left "everything" behind and had pretty much nothing to start a new with, didn't think like your above post. Had they done so, where would this country be today????

[JustRalph]

The notion that we enjoy a better standard of living than 99.9% of the world's population, is open to debate.

Yes...there are alot of war torn countries, with unstable governments, whose citizens would risk life and limb to escape from...and live here with us...but there are also plenty of countries who enjoy a standard of living MUCH higher than our own.

In more than a few of the European countries, the air and the water are cleaner, the life expectancy higher, the work week smaller, the crime rate lesser, education more advanced, health care more affordable, homelessness unheard of, and the citizens generally happier and more stress free.

And these countries are no-where near our country in wealth and might!

Our leaders have succeeded in convincing us that we are the envy of the civilized world - as far as standard of living is concerned...but that is far from the truth.

For many of us...the "American Dream" has turned into a nightmare...with no relief in sight!++

yep, and they live in 100 yr old 900 sq foot apartments that cost half a million or more. Many don't own cars .....they don't accumulate very much personal wealth unless they are extremely off the scale successful due to high taxes. Why do you think the Foreign Rock Stars etc all run from countries like Britain and France, Spain etc ? They are taxed to death.

Many will never own any land, pass anything on to their heirs and they settle for this all in the name of the Nanny State. There is no incentive to work hard, invent, break ground or be the best. The Nanny State provides a Dis-incentive to do all the things Capitalism rewards. It eventually is unsustainable..........you are viewing that reality every day on the news lately.

In the U.S. you work hard to use your money for what you desire, not what the Government desires. You decide your station in life and you alone are responsible. Working hard means something and provides great rewards. None of that applies to your European style Utopian countries that mandate 5 weeks of "holiday" every year or Offer you homogenized health care and a blend you into a country that cannot fight its own wars and abdicates its responsibility to defend itself in the name of being above it all.

The American Dream is still alive but has been placed out of reach for many by the very Government that is supposed to provide for the health and well being of the country. You can still pursue it, and win. But it gets harder every day for many. That nightmare you speak of without relief is due to poor leadership, Political Correctness and a race to the bottom in every major category that is important. These areas include Education, Manufacturing and Morals.

The American people have ignored the things that made our grandfathers great and the baby boomers have wrought a country of spoiled children who buy into the ever present swing to the left. We have no moral compass. We make excuses for everyone. We are no longer allowed to judge people on their actions, only their perceived intent. We excuse the criminal amongst us and we coddle the dangerous. For the last 20 years we have told our children that their are no winners or losers, just participants.

We have taken the incentive to achieve away and have not only stripped our society of losers and low achievers, we have explained in no uncertain terms to the best and brightest that winning doesn't matter.

Little League games where scores aren't kept, and timeouts instead of corporal punishment have led us down a road where anybody under 30 is more like our European cousins than our American Grandfathers. And they have absolutely no idea what it took to build the country they take advantage of every day. They lack perspective, Context and drive. Shame on us for letting it happen.............

[thaskalos]

First...do I feel for the family or gentleman in which this thread was started? Sure do. But, I am not as "fortuneate" as you may think. I am fortuneate from the aspect that I am better off then a few others I know but that was all earned by me and in some cases, their choices not to do more. Which is fine.
Now I again am not speaking directly about the gent on which this thread was started but I will end with this one statment......
I am terribly glad that our founding fathers and immigrants who left "everything" behind and had pretty much nothing to start a new with, didn't think like your above post. Had they done so, where would this country be today???? Since I clearly lack an education similar to yours...would you be nice enough to tell me what about my post would have been so detrimental to the future of this nation...if the belief of such was shared by our founding fathers and the immigrants, who left "everything" behind?

[newtothegame]

Since I clearly lack an education similar to yours...would you be nice enough to tell me what about my post would have been so detrimental to the future of this nation...if the belief of such was shared by our founding fathers and the immigrants, who left "everything" behind?

Just read your own post. I am not going to get into particuliars as I have no real issues with you. But, you sound just like a few libs here who always play the "it's not my fault" card and expect others to take responsibilities for their misfortunes.

Are some truly warranted and as I said, do I feel for them? Yes again....

But, as I asked above and ask again...if our founding fathers felt that everytime they faced a hardship they should throw up their hands and blame others, where would we be???

I can't even begin to imagine the hardships most of the immigrants who originally (and still today) have faced in an effort to come to this country. Yet we sit here and bemoan the fact that we have to work for less then six figures. Or we complain that "my neighbor has a new car, therefore I deserve one".

"I want a half a million dollar home...so what if I work at Dairy Queen".

I have said many times here in OT, ... I truly believe that we have one of the greatest countries on the face of this planet. But, it has also become one of the laziest. We all want to good life, but when the chips are down and we have to live off of bologna for a while ,with a spattering of spam, we complain like highschool girls stood up on prom night!

[thaskalos]

++

yep, and they live in 100 yr old 900 sq foot apartments that cost half a million or more. Many don't own cars .....they don't accumulate very much personal wealth unless they are extremely off the scale successful due to high taxes. Why do you think the Foreign Rock Stars etc all run from countries like Britain and France, Spain etc ? They are taxed to death.

Many will never own any land, pass anything on to their heirs and they settle for this all in the name of the Nanny State. There is no incentive to work hard, invent, break ground or be the best. The Nanny State provides a Dis-incentive to do all the things Capitalism rewards. It eventually is unsustainable..........you are viewing that reality every day on the news lately.

In the U.S. you work hard to use your money for what you desire, not what the Government desires. You decide your station in life and you alone are responsible. Working hard means something and provides great rewards. None of that applies to your European style Utopian countries that mandate 5 weeks of "holiday" every year or Offer you homogenized health care and a blend you into a country that cannot fight its own wars and abdicates its responsibility to defend itself in the name of being above it all.

The American Dream is still alive but has been placed out of reach for many by the very Government that is supposed to provide for the health and well being of the country. You can still pursue it, and win. But it gets harder every day for many. That nightmare you speak of without relief is due to poor leadership, Political Correctness and a race to the bottom in every major category that is important. These areas include Education, Manufacturing and Morals.

The American people have ignored the things that made our grandfathers great and the baby boomers have wrought a country of spoiled children who buy into the ever present swing to the left. We have no moral compass. We make excuses for everyone. We are no longer allowed to judge people on their actions, only their perceived intent. We excuse the criminal amongst us and we coddle the dangerous. For the last 20 years we have told our children that their are no winners or losers, just participants.

We have taken the incentive to achieve away and have not only stripped our society of losers and low achievers, we have explained in no uncertain terms to the best and brightest that winning doesn't matter.

Little League games where scores aren't kept, and timeouts instead of corporal punishment have led us down a road where anybody under 30 is more like our European cousins than our American Grandfathers. And they have absolutely no idea what it took to build the country they take advantage of every day. They lack perspective, Context and drive. Shame on us for letting it happen.............I agree with a lot of what you say Ralph...with the exception of minor things like ...keeping score of Little League games to instill the "need to win" mentality in our kids.

Of course the problems we face today are the result of bad leadership...but identifying the cause of the problem is not the same as solving it.

I fear that the worst of this mess still lays ahead of us...

[JustRalph]

For the last 20 years we have told our children that their are no winners or losers, just participants.

their, there, they're ..........yeah I know...... I used the wrong one..... :bang:

[newtothegame]

Our choices are not always "ours" to make. Many things depend on the circumstances of our lives.

When the economic climate changes drastically, many people are caught in unpleasant situations that they cannot be blamed for. And not many are in the enviable position of "getting their butts back in school" to further their education, because of family responsibilities.

I am not complaining about myself, mind you. I am fortunate enough to be in a business that has remained, as of yet, largely unaffected by the economic "downturn" of the last few years. But I cannot take credit for my good fortune...I could have easily ended up like the man who is the subject of this thread.

What do YOU tell the man featured in this thread, whose life has been turned "upside-down", while our politicians are blaming one another for the mess we are in...and looking out for the interests of big business, instead of the interests of those who voted them into office?

What about all those people, with good educations and well paying jobs, who have been rendered unemployed...and who, due to age, are likely to remain so for the rest of their lives?

Should we remind them of their "personal responsibility", and ask them to stop "blaming others"?

Consider yourself fortunate to have the choices you have...because alot of people are not as lucky as you might be...

"Many things depend on the circumstances of our lives."

Change your circumstances.....

And not many are in the enviable position of "getting their butts back in school" to further their education, because of family responsibilities.

B.S...I know of many single parents who have sacrificed and gone to night schools and work during days.

What do YOU tell the man featured in this thread, whose life has been turned "upside-down", while our politicians are blaming one another for the mess we are in...and looking out for the interests of big business, instead of the interests of those who voted them into office?

Like it or not this is what I tell the gent to whom this thread is referring to.....
I completely understand your problems. I also understand that you are NOT alone in this. There are thousands of people like yourself and in some cases worse.

The politicians have made it hard and I too wish they could walk a mile in my shoes. But, that's not gonna happen anytime soon. So we now have choices...although limited, there are still choices.

And, If I were you, these are the choices I would make. I would ACCEPT the situation I am now in and get past the "tragedy" of it all. The sooner I get past that, the sooner I can get towards the path of recovery.

I would then continue on...if it happens to be starting at WAL-MART, then so be it. But, if this guy is as smart as I believe him to be, as an engineer, he shouldn't be at minimum wage long.

We all face hardships in our lives. It's not a matter of if we will face them but when we face them. How we face adversity is what makes us who we are!

[thaskalos]

Just read your own post. I am not going to get into particuliars as I have no real issues with you. But, you sound just like a few libs here who always play the "it's not my fault" card and expect others to take responsibilities for their misfortunes.

Are some truly warranted and as I said, do I feel for them? Yes again....

But, as I asked above and ask again...if our founding fathers felt that everytime they faced a hardship they should throw up their hands and blame others, where would we be???

I can't even begin to imagine the hardships most of the immigrants who originally (and still today) have faced in an effort to come to this country. Yet we sit here and bemoan the fact that we have to work for less then six figures. Or we complain that "my neighbor has a new car, therefore I deserve one".

"I want a half a million dollar home...so what if I work at Dairy Queen".

I have said many times here in OT, ... I truly believe that we have one of the greatest countries on the face of this planet. But, it has also become one of the laziest. We all want to good life, but when the chips are down and we have to live off of bologna for a while ,with a spattering of spam, we complain like highschool girls stood up on prom night!I have no real issues with you either my friend, but you got me all wrong. I don't believe in getting something for nothing, nor do I blame others for my problems. I already told you that I am not complaining about myself...I am doing fine.

YOU may not know enough about the plight of the immigrants of this country...but I do!

My parents migrated to this country in 1973, at the age of 50, with 4 young kids on their back.

They worked two jobs in order to provide for us...and they never complained because they were well aware of the fact that things were alot worse in the homeland that they fled from.

The reason that foreigners work so hard, and often become successful in this country, is because they know what it means to be hungry, and oppressed. They don't want their kids to suffer the same fate as them.

Americans, having avoided wars on their homeland, have, for the most part, avoided things like hunger and oppression. As a result...they are more optimistic and less determined than their "foreigner" counterparts.

[JustRalph]

Noticed this article this morning in my RSS reader.....related to my rant and a few others from early this A.M.


http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/07/business/economy/07generation.html?partner=rss&emc=rss

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/misc/nytlogo152x23.gif
A New Generation, an Elusive American Dream

By LOUIS UCHITELLE
GRAFTON, Mass. — After breakfast, his parents left for their jobs, and Scott Nicholson, alone in the house in this comfortable suburb west of Boston, went to his laptop in the living room. He had placed it on a small table that his mother had used for a vase of flowers until her unemployed son found himself reluctantly stuck at home.

The daily routine seldom varied. Mr. Nicholson, 24, a graduate of Colgate University, winner of a dean’s award for academic excellence, spent his mornings searching corporate Web sites for suitable job openings. When he found one, he mailed off a résumé and cover letter — four or five a week, week after week.

Over the last five months, only one job materialized. After several interviews, the Hanover Insurance Group in nearby Worcester offered to hire him as an associate claims adjuster, at $40,000 a year. But even before the formal offer, Mr. Nicholson had decided not to take the job.

Rather than waste early years in dead-end work, he reasoned, he would hold out for a corporate position that would draw on his college training and put him, as he sees it, on the bottom rungs of a career ladder.

“The conversation I’m going to have with my parents now that I’ve turned down this job is more of a concern to me than turning down the job,” he said.

He was braced for the conversation with his father in particular. While Scott Nicholson viewed the Hanover job as likely to stunt his career, David Nicholson, 57, accustomed to better times and easier mobility, viewed it as an opportunity. Once in the door, the father has insisted to his son, opportunities will present themselves — as they did in the father’s rise over 35 years to general manager of a manufacturing company.

“You maneuvered and you did not worry what the maneuvering would lead to,” the father said. “You knew it would lead to something good.”

Complicating the generational divide, Scott’s grandfather, William S. Nicholson, a World War II veteran and a retired stock broker, has watched what he described as America’s once mighty economic engine losing its pre-eminence in a global economy. The grandfather has encouraged his unemployed grandson to go abroad — to “Go West,” so to speak.

“I view what is happening to Scott with dismay,” said the grandfather, who has concluded, in part from reading The Economist, that Europe has surpassed America in offering opportunity for an ambitious young man. “We hate to think that Scott will have to leave,” the grandfather said, “but he will.”

The grandfather’s injunction startled the grandson. But as the weeks pass, Scott Nicholson, handsome as a Marine officer in a recruiting poster, has gradually realized that his career will not roll out in the Greater Boston area — or anywhere in America — with the easy inevitability that his father and grandfather recall, and that Scott thought would be his lot, too, when he finished college in 2008.

“I don’t think I fully understood the severity of the situation I had graduated into,” he said, speaking in effect for an age group — the so-called millennials, 18 to 29 — whose unemployment rate of nearly 14 percent approaches the levels of that group in the Great Depression. And then he veered into the optimism that, polls show, is persistently, perhaps perversely, characteristic of millennials today. “I am absolutely certain that my job hunt will eventually pay off,” he said.

much much more whining at the link :lol:

I know the thread has drifted..... I apologize Dave....... I won't bring anymore to it..........

[newtothegame]

I have no real issues with you either my friend, but you got me all wrong. I don't believe in getting something for nothing, nor do I blame others for my problems. I already told you that I am not complaining about myself...I am doing fine.

YOU may not know enough about the plight of the immigrants of this country...but I do!

My parents migrated to this country in 1973, at the age of 50, with 4 young kids on their back.

They worked two jobs in order to provide for us...and they never complained because they were well aware of the fact that things were alot worse in the homeland that they fled from.

The reason that foreigners work so hard, and often become successful in this country, is because they know what it means to be hungry, and oppressed. They don't want their kids to suffer the same fate as them.

Americans, having avoided wars on their homeland, have, for the most part, avoided things like hunger and oppression. As a result...they are more optimistic and less determined than their "foreigner" counterparts.

Exactly my point....

Glad we got MY misunderstanding out of the way.....

And yes we do agree....people here for the most part have no real idea what it is to "struggle".

Now I can't say I have immigrated and been through war torn countries as a way of life....but I do know what I have seen from military days as well as what my parents struggled through. And I always had food....might not of been steak, but food none the less. And the one thing I was never short or deprived of was LOVE....

Gets ya through more then ya think you can handle .....

[WinterTriangle]

The reason that foreigners work so hard, and often become successful in this country, is because they know what it means to be hungry, and oppressed. They don't want their kids to suffer the same fate as them.

Americans, having avoided wars on their homeland, have, for the most part, avoided things like hunger and oppression. As a result...they are more optimistic and less determined than their "foreigner" counterparts.

Unless they are old enough to remember the Depression. The photographs of Walker Evans, Dorothea Lange, Russell Lee, Arthur Rothstein, Ben Shahn, showed children chopping cotton, working as sharecroppers (oppression economy).

In our modern time, American Corporations went to the far reaches of the world to find cheap, sweatshop labor. (opression economy). American's were giddy buying cheap stuff at Walmart. Unfortunately, the result is that now, Americans can no longer earn 10 times the salary of workers in other parts of the world. They will have to settle for the same salary.

Capitalism is based on making profits. Can't do that paying the kind of wages American's expect.

Some of you keep talking about supporting businesses so they can supply jobs for people. The reality is that there are no businesses here that can compete with sweatshop wages. So, can you guys explain what your verison of the plan is?

IMHO, engineers and blue collar workers would be perfect fit for building / repairing infrastructure. Roads, bridges, etc.




Back to The Depression: there were people in AR, TX, and OK that were leading hardscrabble lives before the Depression. The Depression just confirmed it. I talk to people around here, they were eating birds and turtles n' stuff. The Depression didn't affect them that much because they were already dirt poor to begin with. In Arkansas, the song went:
"Well somebody told us Wall Street fell,
But we were so poor that we couldn't tell...."

http://www.english.illinois.edu/maps/depression/images/evans1.jpg



"Well momma got sick and daddy got down.
The county got the farm and they moved to town.
Pappa got a job with the TVA
He bought a washing machine and then a Chevrolet."


Sound like WPA worked.:confused: When you can buy a Chevrolet, you're spending into the economy. Buying products that businesses make. And I see so much infrastructure in place that has lasting effects

[illinoisbred]

WT- I believe The country music group Alabama put that ditty to music in the late 80's in a song entitled "Song of the South".

[Dave Schwartz]

I know the thread has drifted..... I apologize Dave....... I won't bring anymore to it......

I'm not so sure it has drifted, if one reads between the lines.

I mean, this man asked me a question. And there is an answer, even though I suspect he did not really expect one. He asked how this could happen to him, someone who saw life from YOUR point of view. He believed in the things you believe in; a reasonable frugality, follow the path chosen BY him early in life, education.

In other words, he was "true to the cause" of the American dream. And in the end he sees it as a wasted life.

It isn't, of course. A wasted life, that is. He has a strong marriage, and good kids who are in early adult-hood; kids with the same value system he has; the one he taught them.


What do YOU tell the man featured in this thread, whose life has been turned "upside-down", while our politicians are blaming one another for the mess we are in...and looking out for the interests of big business, instead of the interests of those who voted them into office?

What about all those people, with good educations and well paying jobs, who have been rendered unemployed...and who, due to age, are likely to remain so for the rest of their lives?

Should we remind them of their "personal responsibility", and ask them to stop "blaming others"?

Consider yourself fortunate to have the choices you have...because alot of people are not as lucky as you might be...


See, this is really the point, isn't it?

Americans have had that "pioneer" mentality from the very beginning. The belief that we are the captains of our ships, responsible for our direction and our outcomes.

And the point is that this is simply not true any more. Oh, it will appear to be true most of the time but when you meet guys with stories like this one it is pretty hard to keep the faith.


You know, before I had a horse racing business I worked in gaming. I also did computer consulting and earned money from my avocation: umpiring. Funny, I never realized while I was doing it what a hard-working guy I am.

When I got up the courage to start my own business and had a little success, then big success (compared to my life before) I thought it would never end. The fact is that since 1990 I went out of business once and re-invented our company 3 times. That's the advantage a small business owner has: the ability to adapt.

Workers used to have that because the industrious guys always found a way. After all, there was always an opportunity somewhere. We looked at life that way and it was true.


Show of hands... how many of you, back in the '70s and before, always knew you could find a solid sales job if you really wanted? On any given day, certainly within a week, of looking for such a job you could find someone to hire you. And there would always be a job with some real opportunity behind it.

I contend that this situation no longer exists.

First, the sales jobs are now "order-taker" jobs without meaningful commission. Second, the world is full of companies that hire without a face-to-face with an actual owner of the business. That's because the small business has been replaced by the giant business. The giant business could care less how much gumption you've got.


I remember "starting over" in 1984. I came to Reno with my family, broke and needed a job. I started on one end of Virginia Street at 8am. Put in an app at the Cal-Neva casino. What a God-awful place. Someone I know once referred to it as the "Star Wars Bar." An appropriate description. Thank goodness I did not get the job. LOL

So it went, up the street. By 8:30pm I had a job at the other end of the street, at Circus-Circus. Started the next day. That was how you did it then. And that is the mentality that most of you possess. You keep at it until it works because you have no other choice.


Well, today you could walk up and down that street applying everywhere and not get a job where you could support your family.

So, what is different today?

Well, in my neck of the woods, half of the casinos up that street are closed, but let's not talk about gaming.

In the Virginia Streets of today's world, the jobs have moved to other countries. Our leaders let that happen. They even encouraged it!

They tried to sell us on the "What's good for American business is good for America." Well, that is simply not true. Oh, it might look good on the statistical side.

Look at that! GDP is up! Must be working!

Meanwhile, Americans are finding it harder and harder to get a job that will support them and their families. Nevertheless, the beat went on and so did the sales job.

Why do you suppose that these leaders pushed for American business to become more global instead of protecting us with the tariff system? I'll tell you why: Because American Business paid them to do it!

They accomplished that by choosing the candidates; by limiting who we can elect;

Ask yourself this... why do the OTHER countries still protect their workers?


You know, one of the reasons I like this forum so much is because of the fact that we, as a group, are relatively like-minded. Oh, I don't mean that we agree on everything, but as a general rule we are not socialist-type, welfare-oriented people. Not even the liberals. That much we agree upon. Horse players expect to have to earn their way, rather than having it given to them.

And we are an intelligent group. There are very few stupid people here.

Take a look at what I have written... I do not expect that I have all the answers. I am certainly not an economist, or a politician, or a social worker, or a...

Consider the fact that the people running our country - OUR COUNTRY - do not really care about the PEOPLE. They have shown this over and over by the way they have led us and called it a good lead.

Tell me how we are going to fix that. I just cannot see a way to do it.

[chickenhead]

I continue to see the slow drift of technical jobs moving overseas, India and China. It's cheaper. There is a certain irresistible draw to that, like gravity.

It's possible that our expectations and premises are untenable -- the comparative advantage we enjoyed that allowed us to gather so much wealth collectively may just not be as powerful as it once was. Other countries copy, businesses study and train and optimize for different conditions -- and we mature, get complacent. And our growth gets arbitraged away from us.

We aren't suffering from a lack of wealth, just a lack of growth. It's possible that our expectations for growth, based on historical business as usual of post WW2 to now, are simply wrong over the long term future. Maybe rather than growing faster than average, we'll grow slower than average. And maybe overall growth will also be slower than over the post WW2 era.

It's possible a constant, meaningful ever increasing level of personal wealth isn't going to be a comfortable goal for most people. Maybe just living a happy, healthy life is.

[GameTheory]

Tariffs just prop up one special interest at the expense of everyone else. There is no free lunch.

Also, there is a common fallacy of "exports good, imports bad". In fact, imports and exports are always equal in the end, as they must be. Those dollars must come back. Nobody ever really trades for money, right? Money is the medium of exchange between goods & services. Foreign trade is no different than domestic trade, and it is in our benefit to buy our goods and services as cheap as we can get them (for the quality we desire) and spend our resources on things we are better at than the competition -- things that don't need tariffs to keep them around. Our problems are not from lack of government "protection", but rather from it.

And as Chickenhead points out, there are certain things that are on the order of natural laws -- they have to be dealt with as realities. You can't intervene yourself into utopia, it only makes things worse.

[Dave Schwartz]

GT,

Does the current system not cause an equalization of lifestyle across the planet?

Does that not mean we are moving towards the austere lifestyle of 3rd world countries as they move towards us?

In other words, they're raising their standards at our expense?


Dave

[xtb]

Tariffs just prop up one special interest at the expense of everyone else. There is no free lunch.

Also, there is a common fallacy of "exports good, imports bad". In fact, imports and exports are always equal in the end, as they must be. Those dollars must come back. Nobody ever really trades for money, right? Money is the medium of exchange between goods & services. Foreign trade is no different than domestic trade, and it is in our benefit to buy our goods and services as cheap as we can get them (for the quality we desire) and spend our resources on things we are better at than the competition -- things that don't need tariffs to keep them around. Our problems are not from lack of government "protection", but rather from it.


In a perfect world where every country played by the same rules I would agree with you but that's not the case. The massive trade imbalance China enjoys with us through currency manipulation, slave labor and closed markets means those dollars are never coming back. The result is an eroded tax base and high unemployment, not to mention settling for lower quality goods and services. The price companies pay for cheaper labor is to turn over the technology they have researched and developed negating any competitive edge. I see no positives for the average American for what is happening.

[Greyfox]

Consider the fact that the people running our country - OUR COUNTRY - do not really care about the PEOPLE. They have shown this over and over by the way they have led us and called it a good lead.

You're post was well stated and for the most part spot on.
The only quibble I have is that I do not believe that the people running our country do not really care about the people. So the fact is, your comment above is not a fact, it is an opinion.

A lot of the Senators and Congressmen do care for their electorate.
Many of the changes that you spoke of were and are beyond their control.
The very tool that you use so well, the computer, has helped "flatten" the earth.

See --http://www.thomaslfriedman.com/bookshelf/the-world-is-flat

[Dave Schwartz]

Foxie,

I can certainly accept that as being "opinion."

A lot of the Senators and Congressmen do care for their electorate.
Many of the changes that you spoke of were and are beyond their control.

Agreed. The problem is that they do not, IMHO, care as much as they do for them that got them elected.

IMHO, they are serving their masters and them is not us.


Dave

[chickenhead]

humans lived for a long time in pretty localized economic environments. Our history over time has been to increase specialization and lengthen the supply chains for everything. Every day things are slightly more specialized, jobs more atomic, inter-dependant, complex.

There is a trade-off there of stability for prosperity. It's impossible to get fired from being a subsistence farmer. You may have a drought, and so no food, and bad things result -- but it's easy to understand, and everyone is in the same boat, and it's natural. It's more stressful to be involved in this kind of highly specialized, highly complex economy -- it's almost like being a part of some giant organism, but it's nowhere near as visible or as natural to us as, well, nature. If you get displaced from this organism, if it's version of natural selection says you are no longer needed, that's a pretty daunting affair -- it can begin to look like an alien organism and you're just not sure if you fit, or will ever fit, again. And moreso, the environment isn't really set up to gracefully handle people that aren't a part of this synthetic organism.

Maybe there is a limit to this, a point where increased specialization and complexity in supply chains breaks down because people just don't like to live with so much uncertainty. Maybe it'll hit a point where the trade-off of increased properity for being a successful part of the organism just aren't worth the real and psychological damage done by being rejected from the organism. Maybe some things could be relocalized, and other, more complex areas left to continue down that path. Maybe people will choose some lower level of standard of living for increased stability. It's hard to say.

[thaskalos]

Whether the politicians care about the people or not is not the point...they are not doing enough to show it!

Democracy is supposed to mean "Power To The People"!

Our elected officials are, in reality, public SERVANTS...paid BY US to do a job. Once elected, they start calling themselves our "leaders", and assume the role of our parents...telling us what to do with our money, while they keep the real "workings" of the household a secret from us!

And when things get so bad that there is no answer in sight...they are voted out of office...often making more money in retirement, than they EVER made at their jobs. And the "vicious cycle" repeats itself, with the new elected officials...

How does a "public servant" become like a parent...and how do "WE", the people supposedly in power (in a "Democracy"), end up treated like children?

[GameTheory]

Agreed. The problem is that they do not, IMHO, care as much as they do for them that got them elected.

IMHO, they are serving their masters and them is not us.

One of the things I've often said is structure determines behavior. By that I mean it almost doesn't matter who the specific people in power are, and whether or not they care. If Dave Schwartz himself was made senator today, he wouldn't do any better for us. I don't say this to denigrate Dave, of course, just saying it is like jumping into a raging river. You can try to go with the current, or you can fight it, but the current is going to win every time. The only way to get somewhere different is to change the river banks, build dams, etc -- i.e. change the structure. Throwing a different guy into the river makes no difference.

It is extremely difficult to make structural changes to the system from within the system itself (although sometimes it happens).


In a perfect world where every country played by the same rules I would agree with you but that's not the case. The massive trade imbalance China enjoys with us through currency manipulation, slave labor and closed markets means those dollars are never coming back.I'm not giving an opinion -- "Oh, they'll come back, don't worry." I'm saying it is economic law that they come back -- they aren't good for anything else. If China never spends their U.S. dollars, they haven't gained anything by selling stuff to us -- just a pile of unused money. Imports = Exports, period. If you lower imports, you also lower exports. And vice-versa. If you import more, you by definition end up exporting more. There may be a time delay, but it will happen.

[Greyfox]

. If Dave Schwartz himself was made senator today, he wouldn't do any better for us. I don't say this to denigrate Dave, of course, just saying it is like jumping into a raging river. You can try to go with the current, or you can fight it, but the current is going to win every time. The only way to get somewhere different is to change the river banks, build dams, etc -- i.e. change the structure. Throwing a different guy into the river makes no difference.

.

:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: Well said. Structure does shape function. Some type of structural change is necessary for sure.

[xtb]

Imports = Exports, period. If you lower imports, you also lower exports. And vice-versa. If you import more, you by definition end up exporting more. There may be a time delay, but it will happen.

Probably not in our lifetime. Our overall standard of living has been lowered and hasn't hit bottom yet. China on the other hand is becoming more prosperous. I suppose when we are "equal" the bleeding may stop.

Is your business you've spoken of, some kind of import/export business or does it involve offshoring? You seem ok with what is happening.

[Dave Schwartz]

One of the things I've often said is structure determines behavior. By that I mean it almost doesn't matter who the specific people in power are, and whether or not they care. If Dave Schwartz himself was made senator today, he wouldn't do any better for us. I don't say this to denigrate Dave, of course, just saying it is like jumping into a raging river. You can try to go with the current, or you can fight it, but the current is going to win every time. The only way to get somewhere different is to change the river banks, build dams, etc -- i.e. change the structure. Throwing a different guy into the river makes no difference.

I absolutely agree.

Consider what happens to those rare freshmen congressmen who are not the stereotypical politician... you know, not a lawyer, not wealthy... just a dedicated citizen who just managed to get himself elected.

Such a congressman does not know how to play the game. He never becomes effective and goes away quickly.

The solution begins with campaign reform. We must take the power of nomination out of the hands of big business.

[GameTheory]

Probably not in our lifetime. Our overall standard of living has been lowered and hasn't hit bottom yet. China on the other hand is becoming more prosperous. I suppose when we are "equal" the bleeding may stop.The growth of China (and India) has been very rapid recently, but is unsustainable. You can't grow that much faster than the economies of your customers for too long. And they are/will hitting all sorts of the political and societal problems that come with great change. The growth of Asia will be a good thing for us in the end. They are more dependent on us than we are on them. (Remember a few decades ago it was Japan that was supposed to bury us.)

Is your business you've spoken of, some kind of import/export business or does it involve offshoring? You seem ok with what is happening.You seem to think my opinions would be different depending on what business I might be in as if switching jobs somehow changes fundamental laws. Asking if I am OK with what is happening is like asking if I am OK with gravity. It's just the way things are -- there is nothing to make a value judgment about.

I do approve of free trade and free markets if that is what you are getting at. We do best the more free things are. I understand the urge to "protect" but it doesn't work, never has, and never will. Any more than you "protect" yourself from gravity -- it always acting on you whether you like it or not, and anything you do to try to negate it does nothing to negate it and can only restrict your own freedom of movement for no beneficial effect.

There are a million things we can do to improve our situation, but they don't have anything to do with protecting ourselves from China, merely removing the impediments we've set-up to block our own way.

[Space Monkey]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Space Monkey
I'm still waiting for the day when you will
call 1,,JUST 1 of them out for their childish behavior.

Been done many times already. The childish thing is thinking it hasn't

Many times, Yes. Many times at people who have taken their shots at me, NO. Correct me if I'm wrong please.

[Space Monkey]

Dave, in order to fix this country we need to go back to public financing of the campaigns. Our politicians, on both sides, are bought and paid for. When they retire they can keep all the contributions that they didn't spend. It's a corrupt system. We need to change our trade policies. Get out of the WTO, repeal NAFTA, and start charging tariffs again. We also have to stop being the world's army. We can pledge air and sea support to our allies, but we don't need to have bases of 15-30,000 troops all over the world in places like Italy.

It's sad when people like your friend feel that suicide is the only option. I think if everybody here got together and told all their financial horror stories it would take days to get through it all. Some people suffer from depression, but its not evident until disaster strikes. I got married young, didn't have a job. My dad got me a job with a school bus company and I worked 50-60 hours a week for $2.40 an hour. I drove double session school runs and every field trip I could get. I watched Secretariats Belmont from a bar,,,errr, restaurant while I was waiting to do the return run. I managed to save up some dough and a few years later I bought a deli in a beach town. The gas crisis hit the next year and I lost everything. Did I ever even consider suicide. No. Why? I don't know. Maybe because money has never been the most important thing in my life. Suicide is for cowards. My wife, kids, my dad, were always the most important part of my life. Money had nothing to do with it. Nobody will personally admit to it, but many lives are ruled, controlled, and destroyed by pure simple love of the dollar.

I know if a friend or family member ever mentions to me that he/she is considering suicide, I would do everything I could to get that person some professional help. I am in favor of medically assisted suicide for terminally ill patients like the program Oregon has. Suicide because you can't handle life's ups and downs is an entirely different matter.

[Space Monkey]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Space Monkey
Hey Johnny, how about an intelligent comment on the substance of that post? What is your opinion of the Republican Party today as opposed to the Eisenhower era? Do you think the current GOP is doing as much for blue collar America as Republicans of the 50's? Do you disagree that Joe Brown is a racist?

Threads been hijacked, I know, but I think its been awhile and more than a few posters that have addressed the topic. Threads dead I guess. Please don't close it PA, I want to hear Johnny's response.



Here's the thing - remember when you posted that list of dozens of issues and asked for an opinion of each? You had great fun when few people actually answered, repeatedly admonishing the forum for not addressing your post. So a few people, myself included, took the time to diligently reply to your post in sincerity. You seemed disappointed to get serious answers, because you never acknowedged many of our replies. Yet, you found time to continually stir the pot within that thread and elsewhere. I tried to communicate with you at the level at which you claimed to desire and it was made clear to me that I had wasted my time and that you desired rather to be combatative and then act victimized.

I'm not picking on you, I'm just answering honestly - I made the mistake of taking your political baits seriously once and I'm not inclined to repeat the mistake.
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Neeearring the gate... less than a minute...


Johnny, what does your misguided opinion on a thread I started 4 or 5 months ago have to do with the questions I just asked? I seemed disappointed that I got serious answers???? You can read my mind?? You are wrong. I don't remember much from that thread. I do remember 1 person from the right, maybe it was you, that reached some common ground with me. Then whenever I posted anywhere else this person would attack everything I said. It was like he was trying to make up for his sin. This is now and I asked you what I consider to be a few quality questions about the current state of your party compared to it's history. I'm not baiting you. You chose to dodge the question and bring up some b.s. from the past. It's obvious that you don't have the answers.

[xtb]

The growth of China (and India) has been very rapid recently, but is unsustainable. You can't grow that much faster than the economies of your customers for too long. And they are/will hitting all sorts of the political and societal problems that come with great change. The growth of Asia will be a good thing for us in the end. They are more dependent on us than we are on them. (Remember a few decades ago it was Japan that was supposed to bury us.)

There has never been a country such as China in the position they are in, to compare the situation to. They show no signs of stopping.

You seem to think my opinions would be different depending on what business I might be in as if switching jobs somehow changes fundamental laws. Asking if I am OK with what is happening is like asking if I am OK with gravity. It's just the way things are -- there is nothing to make a value judgment about.

My economics professor in college taught that there are no hard and fast rules or laws in economics like there are in the physical sciences, only theories and guidelines. Economies are in a constant state of flux, always a moving target.

If economies were governed by fundamental laws, we would be able to make accurate predictions and know how to fix them. Instead, we have diametrically opposed viewpoints on how to recover them.

I do approve of free trade and free markets if that is what you are getting at. We do best the more free things are.

I approve of free trade also, what we have with China is not free trade. Their markets are not open the way ours are.


I understand the urge to "protect" but it doesn't work, never has, and never will. Any more than you "protect" yourself from gravity -- it always acting on you whether you like it or not, and anything you do to try to negate it does nothing to negate it and can only restrict your own freedom of movement for no beneficial effect.

It seems to work for other countries. Again, economics can't be compared to physics.

There are a million things we can do to improve our situation, but they don't have anything to do with protecting ourselves from China, merely removing the impediments we've set-up to block our own way.

I'm all for less government control but I can't see eliminating minimum wage and safety regulations. How many factories in China do you think would pass an OSHA inspection?

[bigmack]

There has never been a country such as China in the position they are in, to compare the situation to. They show no signs of stopping.
Tidy response but it does little to address the issues raised by GameT.

With another 'at bat' might you have a response that has more substance?

[xtb]

Tidy response but it does little to address the issues raised by GameT.

With another 'at bat' might you have a response that has more substance?


The growth of China (and India) has been very rapid recently, but is unsustainable. You can't grow that much faster than the economies of your customers for too long. And they are/will hitting all sorts of the political and societal problems that come with great change. The growth of Asia will be a good thing for us in the end. They are more dependent on us than we are on them. (Remember a few decades ago it was Japan that was supposed to bury us.)

China's economy has been growing steadily since 1979 and very rapidly since the mid 90's. I've heard "it's not sustainable" for the last decade, they are now the second largest economy in the world. Being a totalitarian country, they do a pretty good job of crushing political and societal problems. There is nothing to compare this hybrid totalitarian/capitalistic country to, certainly not post WWII Japan. Perhaps GameT can explain how "the growth of Asia will be a good thing for us in the end." That's assuming we make it to the end.

[Dave Schwartz]

Perhaps GameT can explain how "the growth of Asia will be a good thing for us in the end." That's assuming we make it to the end.

LOL - We may not have far to go.

[GameTheory]

China's economy has been growing steadily since 1979 and very rapidly since the mid 90's. I've heard "it's not sustainable" for the last decade, they are now the second largest economy in the world. Being a totalitarian country, they do a pretty good job of crushing political and societal problems. There is nothing to compare this hybrid totalitarian/capitalistic country to, certainly not post WWII Japan. Perhaps GameT can explain how "the growth of Asia will be a good thing for us in the end." That's assuming we make it to the end.A few quick hits now:

I'm not suggesting that China itself isn't sustainable, or that it is going to shrink or collapse (although they certainly might -- their totalitarianism is going to have to ease up if they want to continue growing). I'm suggesting they can't continue to grow at 12x the pace of the people they are selling to -- how would that be possible exactly? Their growth rate will settle into something more reasonable as time goes on. And the reason their growth will be good for us is because they are creating a class of consumers -- a market for us.

And there are "natural" and fundamental economic laws, despite what your economics professor told you. The fact that economists are largely clueless and that quack John Maynard Keynes is still well-respected does not indicate the lack of order in the economic universe. It is up to the economists not to create the laws, but discover them. The cluelessness about economics in general, and the fallacies that continue to persist (leading to non-helping policies like tariffs and stimulus plans) are what get us into these messes and cause booms and busts. (And it doesn't seem China has any better handle on these things, so their own busts are surely coming.)

I will try to start a new thread in the next few days with details of what I think about all that, China, etc, addressing your questions in more detail.

[chickenhead]

but it is a valid point that China is a largely protected economy, foreign business has a hard time selling foreign goods into China -- they can operate but the goods are invariably locally produced.

So a good portion of that imbalance money can come back in the form of repatriated corporate earnings, which isn't a bad thing, but it's not a direct driver of the sorts of mfg jobs that we are losing. Coca Cola has huge international earnings that make their way back into dollars, but it doesn't mean American workers are employed to produce Coca Cola to be exported. The number of works employed by Coca Cola here are linked to our consumption, not China's. Coca Colas local China operations will grow as China consumption grows, we just get corporate earnings. Maybe I'm technically wrong there somewhere, but it doesn't seem like imports and exports equalize on the basis of goods -- they equalize around dollars in and out. But actual mfg goods, by labor input, can be largely unequal indefinitely so long as the dollars work out.

Those earnings will find their way to Americans pockets, and they will buy stuff with it, but that doesn't mean certain job classes are likely to be present here like they were, which I think is a legitimate concern for people who are suited mainly for those kinds of jobs. It's going to be scary for people middle and below for a long time.

[traveler]

We are done as you suggest Dave.

I feel somewhat like your friend but working and fortunate but very frustrated at what I see in the future for the younger folks.

I've done what I was supposed to do and have been penalized. Saved for my kids college education so we get no aid because I saved, those who didn't or couldn't get free money, why? Since when did college become a right.

We saved for retirement via stock funds in our 401k's because companies were encouraged by the Fed's and tax policy to shed traditional pensions. Have seen virtually no gains for 10-15 years. Those who did "wrong", stuck their cash in a savings account or in the mattress are better off.

The folks I know who are generally the best off are employed in one fashion or another by the "government". No layoffs, generous health benefits, guaranteed pensions whose payouts have nothing to do with the returns generated by the pension managers. Some of this is changing but too little to late.

As water seeks it's own level, so will world economies. As a result of globalization we will see our standard of living decrease even more rapidly.

The rest of the world does not believe in true free markets, they tend to protect their markets/workers. The morons in Washington continually force the average working guy in the US to subsidize other countries and big corporations in the name of free markets and democracy. Hope your friend finds some inner peace Dave.