Who's on the Juice Today? Life among the animadversions

[andymays]

http://startelegramsports.typepad.com/west_points/2010/06/life-among-the-animadversions.html

Excerpt:

"Juice," Glen said. "He got the juice. Ya know, something to make him run faster. There's no way that horse could win unless he got some help."

"Oh, I see," the girlfriend said, admiringly. "Is that legal?"

"No, baby," Glen said, adorning the comment with that unmistakable smirk of condescension. "But they all do it if they can get away with it."

Excerpt:

Horse racing faces a mountain of ignorance that the sport must try to circumvent or surmount. Every sport, of course, must educate its fans. But for horse racing, the mountain is higher than for any but the most esoteric of sports. The problem, I think, has been exacerbated by two groups who ideally should contribute to its solution: the regulators and the media. They actually encourage people such as Glen to embrace absurd assumptions. And so it will be left to the racetracks themselves to educate their fans.

Excerpt:

Given the sensitivity of today's testing and the attitude of some regulators, even the Archbishop of Canterbury would inevitably have a positive test and a medication violation if he trained a large stable of racehorses . A trainer with a large stable can hardly avoid it. The consequences are that some honest horsemen who would never consider violating the rules in an attempt to get into the winner's circle get labeled unfairly, and horseplayers such as Glen get the mistaken impression that the game is dominated by cheaters.

In truth, racehorses are probably the most drug-free athletes in professional sports.

Read more: http://startelegramsports.typepad.com/west_points/2010/06/life-among-the-animadversions.html#ixzz0s92rPRy1

[andymays]

In my opinion this is the best article I've seen on the subject and it puts things in persepective. Most people get it wrong when talking about drugs in Horse Racing over the last few years.

[BillW]

Horse racing does as bad a job at managing perception as it does managing reality. It's not enough to have control over the use of drugs and tote problems, but the customer perception of the job they are doing in these areas must be positive also. The sport really has a long way to go. :bang:

[andymays]

Horse racing does as bad a job at managing perception as it does managing reality. It's not enough to have control over the use of drugs and tote problems, but the customer perception of the job they are doing in these areas must be positive also. The sport really has a long way to go. :bang:

True Bill. :ThmbUp:

I've been saying for a long time that there are members of the media and Racing Officials that grandstand on the subject and have been for several years now. They should spend more time getting the truth out.

[Robert Goren]

Get the reality under control, then it will be much easier to manage the perception.

[andymays]

Get the reality under control, then it will be much easier to manage the perception.


Did you read the article?

The reality is that over the last few years the sport has cleaned up to the point where racehorses are probably the most drug-free athletes in professional sports.

[Robert Goren]

Did you read the article?

The reality is that over the last few years the sport has cleaned up to the point where racehorses are probably the most drug-free athletes in professional sports. Like that is saying much. The reality is that doping is going on and we all know it. And when someone gets caught, they get a slap on the wrist. When the cheaters start going to jail like several track and field athletes have, then you can begin to talk. A 2 week suspension which may not even cross state lines is not cleaning up the sport.:bang:

[andymays]

Like that is saying much. The reality is that doping is going on and we all know it. And when someone gets caught, they get a slap on the wrist. When the cheaters start going to jail like several track and field athletes have, then you can begin to talk. A 2 week suspension which may not even cross state lines is not cleaning up the sport.:bang:

You're perpetuating a myth. If you posted this 3 or 4 years ago you would be right. Not today.

Are you sure you're not the guy in the article (Glen)?

[joanied]

Very good read, andy.
There isn't anything I can add...the industry needs to develope a central base...all drug rules have to be exactly the same in each state, for every track, the amounts of drugs need to be uniform...the hard part is the fact that micro contaminations will always be there...so the testing rules need to allow for that...while the obvious drugs they test for should have extreme penalities...which has been tossed around forever...I go along with the 3 strikes you're out. I think trainers caught need to be severaly punished...6 months minimum, can't run the horses in someone else's name, can't have any contact with the barn or the employees and then the owners can decide what they want to do...wait or give their horses to someone else.
I also beleive that the vet's need to be held accountable as well. Any vet working for any trainer caught with a postive should have to face a panel of stewards or whomever, show all the paper work from that particular barn/trainer, show proof that they didn't administer said drug (which they won't be able to do), and if a vet is brought up before said panel 3 yimes within a year, they are then banned from that track...no excuses.

Opps...did I say I had nothing to add ;)

[andymays]

Very good read, andy.
There isn't anything I can add...the industry needs to develope a central base...all drug rules have to be exactly the same in each state, for every track, the amounts of drugs need to be uniform...the hard part is the fact that micro contaminations will always be there...so the testing rules need to allow for that...while the obvious drugs they test for should have extreme penalities...which has been tossed around forever...I go along with the 3 strikes you're out. I think trainers caught need to be severaly punished...6 months minimum, can't run the horses in someone else's name, can't have any contact with the barn or the employees and then the owners can decide what they want to do...wait or give their horses to someone else.
I also beleive that the vet's need to be held accountable as well. Any vet working for any trainer caught with a postive should have to face a panel of stewards or whomever, show all the paper work from that particular barn/trainer, show proof that they didn't administer said drug (which they won't be able to do), and if a vet is brought up before said panel 3 yimes within a year, they are then banned from that track...no excuses.

Opps...did I say I had nothing to add ;)


I agree, there should be standards and penalties that everyone abides by. Put it in place and live with it.

[Robert Goren]

You're perpetuating a myth. If you posted this 3 or 4 years ago you would be right. Not today.So who is the horse person who has gone to jail in a doping case? O'Neill get a 2 week slap on the wrist in Illinois and still running horses in other states. Really cleaning up the sport! Until racing adopts a no excuses ever policy and trainers like O'Neill get real suspensions for long periods of time across state lines, racing get the perception it deserves. Someplaces like California have made some limited efforts, but have been shot down by places Pennsylvania who welcome the cheaters with open arms. No matter where it is, the horse people fight every attempt to clean up the sport, just like unions in pro sports.

[joanied]

Not all trainers are cheating...
I think to get something of this magnitude accomplished, the industry needs to vote in a panel of the most above board members of the game...folks like Hancock, Cot Cambell (hope I'm spelling right), Jerry Moss, Maggy Moss, Vietch, Larry Jones, maybe a jock, Gary Stevens, and a vet ot two, what's his name that took care of Barbaro...they will be judge & jury for every track in every state. One lab for testing, located someplace central like the Mid West...and as mentioned, extremely harsh penalities to be carried out, no excuses, no mercy.

Then, the tracks need to come on board and have those things like Breakfast with the jocks and/or trainers...host some sort of morning thing for the public to attend...get information out there to the casual fan (the handicappers will follow this on their own)...and then, nature will take it's course, and in time...folks will regain trust in this great sport.

[BetCrazyGirl]

'In truth, racehorses are probably the most drug-free athletes in professional sports.'



This is what bothers me. When horses get compared to human althlets (I'm assuming that is what he is talking about). Humans are able to make their own choices if they want to use drugs while horses are not able to.

There should be no tolerance for giving drugs to racehorses so I really hope they are the most drug-free athletes around but it is distrubing when you read about trainers who have gotten repeated positives and they basicly only get a slap on the hand for punishment.

[Dahoss9698]

Not all trainers are cheating...
I think to get something of this magnitude accomplished, the industry needs to vote in a panel of the most above board members of the game...folks like Hancock, Cot Cambell (hope I'm spelling right), Jerry Moss, Maggy Moss, Vietch, Larry Jones, maybe a jock, Gary Stevens, and a vet ot two, what's his name that took care of Barbaro...they will be judge & jury for every track in every state. One lab for testing, located someplace central like the Mid West...and as mentioned, extremely harsh penalities to be carried out, no excuses, no mercy.

Then, the tracks need to come on board and have those things like Breakfast with the jocks and/or trainers...host some sort of morning thing for the public to attend...get information out there to the casual fan (the handicappers will follow this on their own)...and then, nature will take it's course, and in time...folks will regain trust in this great sport.

That is some panel.

[Robert Fischer]

That is some panel.
she forgot kenesaw mountain landis and frank calabrese


if pro sports were clean, the article would have a good point...


to be honest it's part of the game... It doesn't bother me if it's mostly consistent.

you've got your steroid guys, your pain guys, your blood guys, probably your chemists... As long as they are doping to WIN it doesn't bother me too much. Obviously I want it out.

some of these guys are doping on the claim, some are wizards with getting a horse with defects to outrun it's conformation... You see the leg flopping around and the horse is still dead-game. And these wiz's get these animals to win minor stakes!

the only thing really turns my stomach anymore is a new foal that's too pumped up on steroids and hormones for a sale. I don't know why that bothers me. I just don't like a freaky muscled newborn that looks like a overweight fighting pitbull.
People that don't see a animal past the $ sign. :sleeping:

[joanied]

she forgot kenesaw mountain landis and frank calabrese


if pro sports were clean, the article would have a good point...


to be honest it's part of the game... It doesn't bother me if it's mostly consistent.

you've got your steroid guys, your pain guys, your blood guys, probably your chemists... As long as they are doping to WIN it doesn't bother me too much. Obviously I want it out.

some of these guys are doping on the claim, some are wizards with getting a horse with defects to outrun it's conformation... You see the leg flopping around and the horse is still dead-game. And these wiz's get these animals to win minor stakes!

the only thing really turns my stomach anymore is a new foal that's too pumped up on steroids and hormones for a sale. I don't know why that bothers me. I just don't like a freaky muscled newborn that looks like a overweight fighting pitbull.
People that don't see a animal past the $ sign. :sleeping:

Can't tell if you are being sarcastic about my panel or serious...maybe it doesn't matter, those are just names of folks I beleive to be honest and above board...am I wrong?

I agree about the foals...loading those babies up, on steroids or whatever is CRIMINAL...didn't 'they' put in place some very strict rules about that...don't they test all the sale weanlings? Of course, by sale time, it's out of their system.
I used to raise foals, and beleive me, I know from experience that they do not need any help from steroids or whatever...plenty of excersise, 24/7 turn out, the best feed with proper balanced nutrition, good hay, good grass, de- worming (and good bloodlines)...you probably know the drill...and the foals mature at the correct rate, stay straight and sound and develope those muscles naturally...my babies were gorgeous, balanced, well conformed and had plenty of muscle...I never had to add anything to their delicate systems.
It just drives me mad that so many farms still do this steriod thing...gggrrrrr!!

So yes, Robert...you should be mad about that.

[johnhenry81]

Anyone remember the guy who had the gettingdownfraud website who claimed that racing was littered with fraud using stiffs, drugs and rock and roll? Wonder what ever happened with that campaign.

[thaskalos]

Did you read the article?

The reality is that over the last few years the sport has cleaned up to the point where racehorses are probably the most drug-free athletes in professional sports. I read the article...and I can't decide which opinion is more absurd...the one that attributes all questionable race results to the "juice", or the one which claims that the sport is clean.

The horseplayer who says that the sport is fraught with illegal drugs is not some idiot who is influenced by some "lies being spread in the media".

He listens to honest veterenerians who tell us how difficult it is getting for some of them to keep working on the backstretch, given today's "just win baby" mentality that some trainers have.

He sees how the sport handles repeat drug offenders. $1,000 fines given to millionaire trainers, while the infractions are buried deep inside racing publications...usually in very small print.

He watches helplessly as previously unknown trainers start winning races at a "hall of fame" pace...for no apparent reason. 30%...40%...even 50% wins after 100+ starts!

Cases of jockey race-fixing, post betting, and "insider" betting scandals are played "close to the vest"...with indictments handed out "quietly", to protect the reputation of the game.

Of course...the industry, and some of our fellow horseplayers too, are quick to point out to us that the game is "basically honest". "Not ALL the trainers are cheating"...we are being told. That's some comfort...

Which begs the question:

Would we EVER consider joining a poker game where "not ALL the players were cheating"?

[garyoz]

Did you read the article?

The reality is that over the last few years the sport has cleaned up to the point where racehorses are probably the most drug-free athletes in professional sports.

Just ask Rudy Rodriquez. New trainer with amazing stats. It must all be in the conditioning.

[Robert Fischer]

Can't tell if you are being sarcastic about my panel or serious...maybe it doesn't matter, those are just names of folks I beleive to be honest and above board...am I wrong?


just a wisecrack...

a name or two on your list may have caught hell from "JoePublic& his girlfriend" per the article, but the KML (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenesaw_Mountain_Landis#Baseball_commissioner) reference wasn't completely tongue-in-cheek...

[George Sands]

Not all trainers are cheating...
I think to get something of this magnitude accomplished, the industry needs to vote in a panel of the most above board members of the game...folks like Hancock, Cot Cambell (hope I'm spelling right), Jerry Moss, Maggy Moss

Maggi Moss? Why?

[turfnsport]

Can't tell if you are being sarcastic about my panel or serious...maybe it doesn't matter, those are just names of folks I beleive to be honest and above board...am I wrong?



I like Maggi Moss, but she uses Asmussen, who has had quite a few positives over the years.

[George Sands]

In my opinion this is the best article I've seen on the subject and it puts things in persepective.

This article is a complete joke. Taking aim at a paranoid fan? Pathetic. The author should take aim at horsemen like Jack Van Berg.

[joanied]

I like Maggi Moss, but she uses Asmussen, who has had quite a few positives over the years.

Also in reply to George Sands...because Maggie Moss is deeply involved in saving horses, because she is devoted to them.
I was not aware she uses Asmussen...but, IMO, I would think her horses stay clean...regardless of who her trainer is.

Oh...thaskolas...you mentioned someone saying "not all trainers cheat"...that was me... that was a simple reply to Robert, who beleives (I think) that every trainer is cheating.

[andymays]

This article is a complete joke. Taking aim at a paranoid fan? Pathetic. The author should take aim at horsemen like Jack Van Berg.


What is a joke about it? The only thing that is pathetic is your opinion.

The testing in the Industry over the last few years has improved dramatically. If you don't want too admit it or look at the facts then you can continue to misinform people and hurt the sport. Are there still cheaters? Of Course. Are there a lot less of them than before? No question.

Here is an article on California Drug Testing. Other jurisdictions followed suit and some are tougher than California today.

Calracing.com -- California Thoroughbred Racing

http://www.calracing.com/press_releases.php?f=CaliforniaTakesitsDrugTes.htm l&yr=2009

[joanied]

just a wisecrack...

a name or two on your list may have caught hell from "JoePublic& his girlfriend" per the article, but the KML (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenesaw_Mountain_Landis#Baseball_commissioner) reference wasn't completely tongue-in-cheek...

Okie-Dokie, then:)

I didn't know what that KML thingy was until I clicked on your 'link' :bang:

[thaskalos]

Oh...thaskolas...you mentioned someone saying "not all trainers cheat"...that was me... that was a simple reply to Robert, who beleives (I think) that every trainer is cheating. Joanied, I have a simple question for you:

You say that "not all the trainers cheat", and yet...most of the game's distinguished trainers have been caught cheating...REPEATEDLY!

Who are the honest trainers then...the not so successful ones? How are the small-time, "supposedly" honest trainers supposed to survive in this game, if the trainers with the huge stables are cheating?

How long before the honest trainers start cheating too?

[George Sands]

What is a joke about it? The only thing that is pathetic is your opinion.

The testing in the Industry over the last few years has improved dramatically. If you don't want too admit it or look at the facts then you can continue to misinform people and hurt the sport. Are there still cheaters? Of Course. Are there a lot less of them than before? No question.

Here is an article on California Drug Testing. Other jurisdictions followed suit and some are tougher than California today.

Calracing.com -- California Thoroughbred Racing

http://www.calracing.com/press_releases.php?f=CaliforniaTakesitsDrugTes.htm l&yr=2009

You want to focus on CA? OK. Let's look at three of the top CA trainers: Mullins, Mitchell, and Sadler. Two of these guys ran right over the initial steroid testing. The third is Jeff Mullins. Wonderful. Sadler is on record as saying that trainers will ALWAYS find a way to beat drug testing--that pre-race detention is the only answer. OK, you're a fan in CA listening to Sadler, who presumably knows something about the subject. Or listening to Jack Van Berg. You know what he said. What is this fan supposed to think? This is a sport where top trainers constantly complain about juice. Sadler has said the problem cannot be solved in the manner people are trying to solve it. But the FAN is paranoid? The article attacks the FAN? Ridicules the FAN? Pathetic. The author had some bigger fish to fry. He should have fried them.

[andymays]

You want to focus on CA? OK. Let's look at three of the top CA trainers: Mullins, Mitchell, and Sadler. Two of these guys ran right over the initial steroid testing. The third is Jeff Mullins. Wonderful. Sadler is on record as saying that trainers will ALWAYS find a way to beat drug testing--that pre-race detention is the only answer. OK, you're a fan in CA listening to Sadler, who presumably knows something about the subject. Or listening to Jack Van Berg. You know what he said. What is this fan supposed to think? This is a sport where top trainers constantly complain about juice. Sadler has said the problem cannot be solved in the manner people are trying to solve it. But the FAN is paranoid? The article attacks the FAN? Ridicules the FAN? Pathetic. The author had some bigger fish to fry. He should have fried them.


You're living in 2006-2007.

What planet are you on. They didn't run over the testing. It was a perfect example of grandstanding by the CHRB. When the rule was in force they complied. The CHRB wanted them to comply prior to the rule being in force and they made a big deal about it and were interviewed in all the papers. That is exactly what the article is talking about. It is not true that they didn't comply. Besides that everyone thought their win % would go in the toilet. What happened these guys are still doing great. How is that possible?


The fact is that the testing and enforcement has changed for the better and it's nowhere near the crazy years prior to 2007.

[thaskalos]

What planet are you on. They didn't run over the testing. It was a perfect example of grandstanding by the CHRB. When the rule was in force they complied. The CHRB wanted them to comply prior to the rule being in force and they made a big deal about it and were interviewed in all the papers. That is exactly what the article is talking about. It is not true that they didn't comply. Besides that everyone thought their win % would go in the toilet. What happened these guys are still doing great. How is that possible?


The fact is that the testing and enforcement has changed for the better and it's nowhere near the crazy years prior to 2007. What enforcement Andy? The slap-on-the-wrist fines, and the short suspensions...while their assistants are still "running the store"?

[andymays]

What enforcement Andy? The slap-on-the-wrist fines, and the short suspensions...while their assistants are "running the store"?

Mullins was just suspended for a violation a few years ago. O'Neill is suspended starting Wednesday.

Once they get uniformed testing rules across the country things will improve even more.

I absolutely don't know why people can't understand that the CHRB and other racing authorities are not always on the up and up and sometimes they are flat out incompetent in their procedures. They lose lawsuits all the time and then they blow their horns in the media. It's grandstanding and that's what the article is about.

The investigator who was in charge of the Rosario case last year never even interviewed him and embarrassed the entire CHRB. He was let go a short time later.

Don't ever think the CHRB never makes a mistake because they make plenty. They also don't enforce the rules across the board equally.

Is it perfect now? No.

Is it getting better? Yes.

[Spalding No!]

I don't know what was funnier in that article:

(1) the paragraph where he explained away most of the medication violations as mere oversights by trainers and too sensitive of testing, then a sentence later declaring that racehorses are probably the most drug-free athletes around. Kind of contradictory if even "innocent" runners have drugs coursing through their veins.

(2) the paragraph where he lambasts the media who's columns on the subject resemble a teenager's diary. This coming from a guy who started his blog with some cheap imitation dime-store detective novel dialogue. Was he talking about himself when he mentioned "few facts and little...actual events"?

[George Sands]

You're living in 2006-2007.

What planet are you on. They didn't run over the testing. It was a perfect example of grandstanding by the CHRB. When the rule was in force they complied. The CHRB wanted them to comply prior to the rule being in force and they made a big deal about it and were interviewed in all the papers. That is exactly what the article is talking about. It is not true that they didn't comply. Besides that everyone thought their win % would go in the toilet. What happened these guys are still doing great. How is that possible?


The fact is that the testing and enforcement has changed for the better and it's nowhere near the crazy years prior to 2007.

Of course they ran over the testing. Squeeze out the last drop of steroids while all you'll get is a note in your file. Eat the penalty, in other words, so you can win more races. It's a perfect example of how the testing and penalties are a joke--much along the lines of the Milkshake testing with the warning letters and the free-fire zone above natural levels. And the FAN is paranoid? And the fan is supposed to trust THESE guys not to find other ways to juice their horses?

Now how about addressing Sadler's comments about the impossibility of stopping juicing short of pre-race detention?

[Cardus]

Not all trainers are cheating...
I think to get something of this magnitude accomplished, the industry needs to vote in a panel of the most above board members of the game...folks like Hancock, Cot Cambell (hope I'm spelling right), Jerry Moss, Maggy Moss, Vietch, Larry Jones, maybe a jock, Gary Stevens, and a vet ot two, what's his name that took care of Barbaro...they will be judge & jury for every track in every state. One lab for testing, located someplace central like the Mid West...and as mentioned, extremely harsh penalities to be carried out, no excuses, no mercy.

Then, the tracks need to come on board and have those things like Breakfast with the jocks and/or trainers...host some sort of morning thing for the public to attend...get information out there to the casual fan (the handicappers will follow this on their own)...and then, nature will take it's course, and in time...folks will regain trust in this great sport.

If you didn't know that "Maggy" Moss employs Asmussen, then you had it right when you typed "There isn't anything that I can add."

[andymays]

Of course they ran over the testing. Squeeze out the last drop of steroids while all you'll get is a note in your file. Eat the penalty, in other words, so you can win more races. It's a perfect example of how the testing and penalties are a joke--much along the lines of the Milkshake testing with the warning letters and the free-fire zone above natural levels. And the FAN is paranoid? And the fan is supposed to trust THESE guys not to find other ways to juice their horses?

Now how about addressing Sadler's comments about the impossibility of stopping juicing short of pre-race detention?


It was grandstanding pure and simple. They weren't the only ones waiting for the rule to go into effect but they were the high profile Trainers that would get the CHRB the most bang for their publicity buck. They also did it at a time when the first year of synthetic at Del Mar was a disaster and nobody was happy with it. Don't you think Shapiro might have pulled a stunt during that period?

If people think Zero tolerance is good and lifetime suspensions are good then it's fine with me. I'm not a Trainer.

Make a ruling with uniformed testing procedures and live by them. All this crap is bad for the sport.

That was what the article is about right?

[Spalding No!]

That was what the article is about right?
I thought it was a plug for "Jockeys and Java" over at Lone Star Park.

[andymays]

I thought it was a plug for "Jockeys and Java" over at Lone Star Park.

:lol:

It might as well have been I guess.

The upside is that we have a few volatile subjects on the board for once instead of a Zenyatta thread. :ThmbUp:

[George Sands]

I'll try again, Andymays:

Now how about addressing Sadler's comments about the impossibility of stopping juicing short of pre-race detention?

[andymays]

I'll try again, Andymays:

Now how about addressing Sadler's comments about the impossibility of stopping juicing short of pre-race detention?


If it's impossible then why is anyone trying? The only solution is to put some rules in place and live with them and move on. This subject only hurts the sport.

I'm at the point of no return with this synthetic sh*t and the drug testing sh*t and the high takeout sh*t.

Shut it all down and eveyone can play poker and bet sports.

Enough already.

[George Sands]

If it's impossible then why is anyone trying? The only solution is to put some rules in place and live with them and move on. This subject only hurts the sport.

I'm at the point of no return with this synthetic sh*t and the drug testing sh*t and the high takeout sh*t.

Shut it all down and eveyone can play poker and bet sports.

Enough already.

The point is that since the sport can't get its act together, it has a hell of a lot of nerve blaming its fans for being paranoid and ignorant. After all, the paranoid, invented fan in the article is only following the logic set down by John Sadler. That's why I consider the article you posted to be pathetic, Andy.

[andymays]

The point is that since the sport can't get its act together, it has a hell of a lot of nerve blaming its fans for being paranoid and ignorant. After all, the paranoid, invented fan in the article is only following the logic set down by John Sadler. That's why I consider the article you posted to be pathetic, Andy.


He's not blaming the fans alone. He's blaming the media and racing officials for grandstanding on the issue instead of writing about the improved testing.

Did you read the whole article?

[George Sands]

He's not blaming the fans alone. He's blaming the media and racing officials for grandstanding on the issue instead of writing about the improved testing.

Did you read the whole article?

Yes, I read the whole article, which is probably more than the author did before he sent it off. Inventing paranoid fans when he's got real-life trainers who are every day setting his premise on fire?

[andymays]

Yes, I read the whole article, which is probably more than the author did before he sent it off. Inventing paranoid fans when he's got real-life trainers who are every day setting his premise on fire?


I think we've danced as long as we can. We'll have to agree to disagree. ;) :ThmbUp:

[thaskalos]

I'm at the point of no return with this synthetic sh*t and the drug testing sh*t and the high takeout sh*t.

Shut it all down and eveyone can play poker and bet sports.
Enough already. I finally agree with you! :) :ThmbUp:

[thaskalos]

I don't know what was funnier in that article:

(1) the paragraph where he explained away most of the medication violations as mere oversights by trainers and too sensitive of testing, then a sentence later declaring that racehorses are probably the most drug-free athletes around. Kind of contradictory if even "innocent" runners have drugs coursing through their veins.

(2) the paragraph where he lambasts the media who's columns on the subject resemble a teenager's diary. This coming from a guy who started his blog with some cheap imitation dime-store detective novel dialogue. Was he talking about himself when he mentioned "few facts and little...actual events"? How can I disagree with you when you make perfect sense?

[Mineshaft]

Also in reply to George Sands...because Maggie Moss is deeply involved in saving horses, because she is devoted to them.
I was not aware she uses Asmussen...but, IMO, I would think her horses stay clean...regardless of who her trainer is.

Oh...thaskolas...you mentioned someone saying "not all trainers cheat"...that was me... that was a simple reply to Robert, who beleives (I think) that every trainer is cheating.





If you think Asmussen is clean then i got a million dollars in the bank and we all know that aint true.

[joanied]

Joanied, I have a simple question for you:

You say that "not all the trainers cheat", and yet...most of the game's distinguished trainers have been caught cheating...REPEATEDLY!

Who are the honest trainers then...the not so successful ones? How are the small-time, "supposedly" honest trainers supposed to survive in this game, if the trainers with the huge stables are cheating?

How long before the honest trainers start cheating too?

Yes, they have...no disputing that. I don't know what the answer is, thaskalos...wish I did...but there are plenty of small time trainers cheating too...and, if ya think about it, they have more reason to cheat because they haven't got a barn full of million dollar horses!
I know that a good percentage of trainers, big & small are pumping horses full of crap...but I still maintain that not ALL trainers cheat.

The point of this thread is that ALL cheating has to end...that statment made by Sadler is scary and pathetic...seems like some of these guys are proud that they can find a way to beat the testing...that is an outrage!
So, once again, and it's been said many times (sounds like an old song:D )...the powers that be have got to crack down...they gotta make uniform drug rules and they absolutley have got to get serious with fines & suspensions...and we DO agree on that, eh?

[BetCrazyGirl]

If it's impossible then why is anyone trying? The only solution is to put some rules in place and live with them and move on. This subject only hurts the sport.

I'm at the point of no return with this synthetic sh*t and the drug testing sh*t and the high takeout sh*t.

Shut it all down and eveyone can play poker and bet sports.

Enough already.

Its not the subject that hurts the sport, its the trainers who continue to drug their horses that are hurting the sport.

[garyoz]

Focus should be just as much on the Vets as trainers (if not more). Also in order to test, you have to know what you are looking for. As the late Dave Feldman said, you can post a sign outside of the track and say every race is fixed today, and the BDH's (broken down horseplayers in his lexicon) would be on the apron trying to figure out the fix. (a paraphrase)

[joanied]

If you think Asmussen is clean then i got a million dollars in the bank and we all know that aint true.

Did I say I thought Asmussen is clean...I don't think sooooooo!! I do think that Maggie Moss keeps an eye on her horses, and maybe even told Asmussen in no uncertain terms that there ain't gonna be any hanky-panky with her animals...who knows...I don't...I'm not in his barn...but I know how that lady is about her horses, so I would simply assume they run clean.
By the way, if you went back to many of my posts, especially when Curlin was running...you'd know I am not a fan of Asmussen.
:)

[Mineshaft]

Did I say I thought Asmussen is clean...I don't think sooooooo!! I do think that Maggie Moss keeps an eye on her horses, and maybe even told Asmussen in no uncertain terms that there ain't gonna be any hanky-panky with her animals...who knows...I don't...I'm not in his barn...but I know how that lady is about her horses, so I would simply assume they run clean.
By the way, if you went back to many of my posts, especially when Curlin was running...you'd know I am not a fan of Asmussen.
:)





If you knew what i knew about Asmussen you wouldnt be a fan of his i promise. Yes i know your not a fan of his.

Dont be so sure that maggi is on the up and up

[joanied]

If you knew what i knew about Asmussen you wouldnt be a fan of his i promise. Yes i know your not a fan of his.

Dont be so sure that maggi is on the up and up

I'd like to know what you know about Asmussen. But, as I said, I've never liked him as a trainer...his rap sheet is too long!
I would have to beleive Maggie Moss is on the up & up...I can't imagine someone that cares for horses as much as she does to be anything but 'clean'...maybe you know something about that too.

[Mineshaft]

I'd like to know what you know about Asmussen. But, as I said, I've never liked him as a trainer...his rap sheet is too long!
I would have to beleive Maggie Moss is on the up & up...I can't imagine someone that cares for horses as much as she does to be anything but 'clean'...maybe you know something about that too.




His rap sheet is long for a reason. Hes nasty very nasty.

[BombsAway Bob]

Joanied, I have a simple question for you:

You say that "not all the trainers cheat", and yet...most of the game's distinguished trainers have been caught cheating...REPEATEDLY!

Who are the honest trainers then...the not so successful ones? How are the small-time, "supposedly" honest trainers supposed to survive in this game, if the trainers with the huge stables are cheating?

How long before the honest trainers start cheating too?

Charlie Assimakopolous... over 3 Decades training.. consistantly around the 20% Win rate... NEVER served days for a drug positive... not even a "Bute" Overage!

[kenwoodall2]

Once again, if others are unwilling, start your own Anti-doping Bettors Commission (ABC) to develop a list of trainers caught with performance-enhancing drugs and lobby individual tracks to enforce their at-will stall policy and obeying of rules policy to deny tested cheaters 50% of stalls and 2 lbs extra carry weight for each violation.
It will never do ant good to make unsubstatiated allegstions when there are real test results usable to go after tested cheaters. Deny stalls and add weight for between 1 meet and 1 year at ALL tracks.

[kenwoodall2]

Horse racing does as bad a job at managing perception as it does managing reality. It's not enough to have control over the use of drugs and tote problems, but the customer perception of the job they are doing in these areas must be positive also. The sport really has a long way to go. :bang:
the facts exist but only as recent as the mid 1990's- 1 in 200 runners wioth PE drugs. But horseplayers are the group that peretuates the cheating myth becuase they cannot reverse-engineer the winner's PP's.
Many myths in racing have to be debunked. And the truth and stats especially in the 2000's are there.

[joanied]

His rap sheet is long for a reason. Hes nasty very nasty.

Agreed...I nearly had heart failure when he got Rachel...IMO, he doesn't deserve a horse like her...and sometims I wonder, of all the trainers J Jackson could choose from...WHY Steve Asmussen :confused: