No More Starters for O'Neill at Hollywood Park over Suspension

[andymays]

The penalty will run from Wednesday June 30th through July 14.

http://www.drf.com/news/article/114227.html

Excerpt:

In the hearings, Schwartz argued that California has different rules for total carbon dioxide testing than Illinios and that other states had not honored the Illinois ruling's suspension.

In their six-page decision, the Hollywood Park stewards disputed those arguments and recommended that racing board officials assign dates for O'Neill's 15-day suspension.

"I don't agree with the results of the hearing," O'Neill said. "The infraction wasn't here."

O'Neill said he spent Friday afternoon consulting with his owners about the implications of the suspension and that a majority of them were not in favor of him running horses in the name of his assistant, Leandro Mora, during the suspension. O'Neill said the policy of having no runners also would apply to stakes horses, including Enriched in the $150,000 American Handicap on July 4.

The decision to not have runners is likely to impact Hollywood Park's fields. The track has struggled to draw sizeable fields in recent weeks and has even canceled two weekdays because of insufficient entries.

"I don't think I will" have any starters, O'Neill said. "They said they don't want me to run while I'm down. They said they don't feel comfortable with me not calling the shots."

[cj]

So he protests by not entering horses in the name of the assistant. Sure, horsemen care about bettors...of course they do. He is just crying like a little baby because he was caught. Another positive in a long line of positives.

[Headbanger]

Ahh the trials and tribulations of good old Drug O'Neill...this guy would be toast if anyone ever actually policed this sport seriously.

[rwwupl]

So he protests by not entering horses in the name of the assistant. Sure, horsemen care about bettors...of course they do. He is just crying like a little baby because he was caught. Another positive in a long line of positives.


I do not think he should run his horses in another name...it makes a sham of the process. Horses should be able to run if they are transfered to another Trainer,without connections to the suspended Trainer. It would make the Trainer be MORE careful, and Owners would have to be more careful too who they select to train their horses.


However, it is a problem in other ways. Big time Trainers are alloted unlimited ,subsidized stall space, of which this Trainer is considered one. There used to be a policy of a maximum of 38 stalls to a single Trainer.

A few years ago he had 260 stalls in California, and now he has around 60, after sending many out of State. The Racing Secretary at Hollywood ,the other day, said in print that the horse inventory was down to about 2,800(plenty) from 4000 on average. He said 1,300 of those had not run at all ,even though all were declared 'Race ready" at the start. There are many reasons why this may occur, but some reasons are not so good.

If the Racing Secretary asks them to run or leave, they may decide to leave with the whole barn, taking many horses that are competing away.

[andymays]

California is crumbling as we speak/write.

There are hard feelings all over the place between several groups.

Not too many people are happy with the CHRB or the Stewards they employ.

Not enough money for purses and not enough horses make California a very unhappy State. :mad:

The sad thing is that after the last CHRB meeting the status quo will reign for the forseeable future. Nice! :rolleyes:

[kenwoodall2]

"O'Neill said he spent Friday afternoon consulting with his owners about the implications of the suspension and that a majority of them were not in favor of him running horses in the name of his assistant, Leandro Mora, during the suspension."
Finally, OWNERS are upset with the trainer! The way it should be! With the owners standing up to violating trainers the CHRB will not have to be afraid of the trainers' lawyers.

[andymays]

"O'Neill said he spent Friday afternoon consulting with his owners about the implications of the suspension and that a majority of them were not in favor of him running horses in the name of his assistant, Leandro Mora, during the suspension."
Finally, OWNERS are upset with the trainer! The way it should be! With the owners standing up to violating trainers the CHRB will not have to be afraid of the trainers' lawyers.


I took it the other way around. They are showing solidarity behind O'Neill and punishing Hollywood Park and the CHRB.

[Trotman]

The only way racing is going to get rid of mutiple drug offenders like O'Neill is to make examples of these trainers with stiffer penalties and suspensions and hit the owners pocketbook while their at it.

[Stillriledup]

First of all, the suspension should be much longer for a repeat offender. Second, when there is a suspension, the trainer shouldnt be allowed to put the horses in the assistants name and train from the beach on the cellphone, those horses should all have to be transferred to other barns of established trainers.

[Greyfox]

First of all, the suspension should be much longer for a repeat offender..

:ThmbUp: I guess. This isn't even a slap on the wrist for O'Neill. The suspension borders on being a joke.

[andymays]

I think the point of the article is that if the horse ran in California it would have been under the limit and there would be no violation. There is a discrepancy between what is allowed in Illinois and what is allowed in California. That's why O'Neill and his owners are doing this little protest against Hollywood Park and the Stewards in my opinion.

All jurisdictions should have the same standards when it comes to testing.

[Tom]

A competent trainer should know the differences.

[kenwoodall2]

First, the track problem in Ca racing is SANTA ANITA and owner, not Hollywood. Second, It is fine by me if big owners want to pick up their ball and leave Ca. They are not running enough of their horses to fill races anyway. And those big trainers left can pay to board their runners elsewhere if they cheat. And the small ones can be allowed more spaces.

[JustRalph]

If I remember right, the last time he was suspended for two weeks he took his family to Hawaii for two weeks and bragged about it on TVG

[andymays]

IS O’NEILL PLAYING HARDBALL WITH CALIFORNIA OFFICIALS?

http://www.paulickreport.com/blog/is-oneill-playing-hardball-with-california-officials/

Excerpt:

Is O’Neill playing hardball with California racing officials? If this is his way of hitting back at the CHRB and its stewards because he is unhappy with their decision, he will also be hurting his fellow horsemen and California racing fans if any more programs are cancelled. – Ray Paulick

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Ray figured it out.

[kenwoodall2]

A competent trainer should know the differences.
"This is the third known violation for excess TCO2 levels for O’Neill, who was penalized in 2006 and 2008 in California."

[castaway01]

First of all, the suspension should be much longer for a repeat offender. Second, when there is a suspension, the trainer shouldnt be allowed to put the horses in the assistants name and train from the beach on the cellphone, those horses should all have to be transferred to other barns of established trainers.

While there might be some slim chance, some possibility (though it would likely lose in court) that you could ban all of the trainers' horses from racing during the length of the suspension (not even allowed to race for the assistant trainer), you certainly would have no legal grounds to force owners to hire trainers they did not want to train their stock.

[toussaud]

it's very hard to muster and give-a-damnness about cali racing when the own horseman there don't even care.

[Robert Goren]

I am not a big fan of CA racing, but it is nice to see somebody stand up to the horse dopers for a change. Getting rid of horse doping may not be #1 on the list of things horse racing needs to do to save itself, but is on the list.

[cj]

IS O’NEILL PLAYING HARDBALL WITH CALIFORNIA OFFICIALS?

http://www.paulickreport.com/blog/is-oneill-playing-hardball-with-california-officials/

Excerpt:

Is O’Neill playing hardball with California racing officials? If this is his way of hitting back at the CHRB and its stewards because he is unhappy with their decision, he will also be hurting his fellow horsemen and California racing fans if any more programs are cancelled. – Ray Paulick

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Ray figured it out.

Maybe he read my post?

[johnhannibalsmith]

I think the point of the article is that if the horse ran in California it would have been under the limit and there would be no violation. There is a discrepancy between what is allowed in Illinois and what is allowed in California. That's why O'Neill and his owners are doing this little protest against Hollywood Park and the Stewards in my opinion.

All jurisdictions should have the same standards when it comes to testing.

I read some of your posts on the blog and I can't agree with your sentiment in some of those posts Andy. In an indirect way, they do have the same standards in terms of punishment - in other words, the trainer is expected to know the rules of each jurisdiction in which he participates and when he violates those rules, the punishment meted out by one jurisdiction is honored by others.

It doesn't matter if you can run on aminocaproic acid or some other bleeder medication in one state and get busted in another for using it where the rules clearly state furosemide, estrogen, or nothing - the state that does allow the use of aminocaproic acid is not going to, nor should it, temper its reciprocity of a ruling because of their own rules on the matter. In New Mexico or Minnesota, I may be able to run on banamine, but if I use it in a state too close to a race that doesn't allow thresholds high enough to reflect use within 24 hours, New Mexico or Minnesota will honor the ruling of the state which has a different policy.

We can debate, or probably skip the debate and mostly just agree that uniformity in thresholds and consequences would be ideal, but as it is, we have one uniform policy from state to state and that one dictates that trainers understand the rules of each jurisdiction in which they are licensed and abide by them. If they don't, they will be in receipt of a ruling that will be honored elsewhere.

O'Neill's gripe with this self-inflicted problem is a big pile of bullshit and he should just hand over his goddamn license if that's the best he can come up as a rebuttal/excuse/defense.

[Stillriledup]

While there might be some slim chance, some possibility (though it would likely lose in court) that you could ban all of the trainers' horses from racing during the length of the suspension (not even allowed to race for the assistant trainer), you certainly would have no legal grounds to force owners to hire trainers they did not want to train their stock.

No, but you could just say that the trainer is not allowed to use an asst trainer (see Ral Ayers) on the program. You would give the owner the option of switching their horse to an established trainer, or that owner can just wait out their trainer's suspension and run when he's allowed back.

[Igeteven]

:ThmbUp: I guess. This isn't even a slap on the wrist for O'Neill. The suspension borders on being a joke.

You are so right, If he and the horse got six months, trainers would think twice before doing it.

[Fager Fan]

I took it the other way around. They are showing solidarity behind O'Neill and punishing Hollywood Park and the CHRB.

How is he punishing anyone by taking his punishment as it is supposedly intended?

We've screamed for years that trainers get real punishment by not being able to transfer their horses to their assistants, and when one says he'll do just that, we're talking of how terrible it is for racing? That he's punishing someone? That he doesn't care about his fellow horsemen?

Seriously?

[andymays]

Horseplayers have the right to expect a fair contest when they bet on a Horse Race.

Does everyone mean to tell me that a guy like Frank Calabrese (Owner) who is winning at a 54% clip with a 85% in the money and everyone here is worried about Doug O’neill? Does anyone seriously think that Illinois racing is a shining example of truth and justice?

Let me repeat that for everyone screaming about a fair game and how everyone should be punished. And how we should honor the testing in Illinois.

Frank Calabrese (Owner) is winning at a 54% clip with a 85% in the money and that’s from a fairly large number of starters!

That's OK and everyone want to scream about punishing O'Neill.

Until the industry sets uniformed standards and acceptable levels for various substances and medications there will continue to be problems.

The public outrage is almost always misplaced and directed at the wrong people and it is on display once again in this thread.

The people running racing are the problem because they don’t want to give up any power within their own little kindgoms. The Stewards and the CHRB are part of the problem. They don't apply the rules consistently or fairly in many instances. If people followed California racing as closely as I do they would know that.

I’ll stand alone on this one. Should O’Neill be suspended? Maybe. Did they have discretion on this one because the testing in Illinois is different from California? Yes. If the horse ran in California on the same day there would be no problem with the test.

California racing shouldn't be in this position in the first place if not for years of poor leadership.

Should racing have uniformed standards and punishments? Absolutely!

[lamboguy]

i happened to have spoken to mark paterson last week, 'the moutainman" on this board. after out conversation we agreed that there must be some type of uniform drug rules with large penalties if anyone decides to break the rules. we both feel that the drugs in out game is a detriment to the long term health of it.

[andymays]

i happened to have spoken to mark paterson last week, 'the moutainman" on this board. after out conversation we agreed that there must be some type of uniform drug rules with large penalties if anyone decides to break the rules. we both feel that the drugs in out game is a detriment to the long term health of it.

Exactly! :ThmbUp:

There should be uniformed rules everywhere and uniformed penalties everywhere. Decide what is allowable and what isn't. If everyone wants zero drugs including lasix then do that. Once it's done then stick by it and move on.

The drug issue has hurt racing more than any other issue. It needs to be put to bed once and for all.
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Back to the O'Neill thing:

So it’s the position of almost everyone here that O’Neill shipped to Illinois knowing he was over the limit and knowing he would get caught and have to forfeit any purse money he may have won? And also that he would be suspended because he was over the limit?

Can anyone tell me why he would do that?

Isn’t the more reasonable explanation that O’Neill thought he was fine (under the limit) because he would be fine(under the limit) in California?
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To me the circumstances of this violation dictate a reasonable response. That is not what happened in this case and O'Neills owners must feel the same way if they're backing him on this particular issue.

For example, if one of you was going 62 miles an hour where the speed limit was 60 and you were pulled over by the Highway Patrol. The Highway patrol says you were over the limit and we treat all speeding violations in the same manner. Your fine will be the same as if you were going 90 mph.

How does that sit with everyone?

When we start applying rules, laws, and punishments to our own lives they don't sound so good do they?

[kenwoodall2]

Took me 23 seconds to find this- " Il rule- c) The TCO2 level in the blood shall be less than37.0 millimoles per liter, plus the measurement uncertainty of the laboratory analyzing the sample."
Took me 45 seconds to find this Ca rule- " (d) TCO2 levels in the blood serum or plasma shall not exceed: (1) 37.0 millimoles per liter of serum or plasma. (2) TCO2 levels in excess of 37.0 millimoles shall be considered a Class three-medication violation for administrative purposes."
Anyone know the difference between 37.0 serum (plasma)(Ca); and 37.0 in the blood (il)?

[therussmeister]

Horseplayers have the right to expect a fair contest when they bet on a Horse Race.

Does everyone mean to tell me that a guy like Frank Calabrese (Owner) who is winning at a 54% clip with a 85% in the money and everyone here is worried about Doug O’neill? Does anyone seriously think that Illinois racing is a shining example of truth and justice?

Let me repeat that for everyone screaming about a fair game and how everyone should be punished. And how we should honor the testing in Illinois.

Frank Calabrese (Owner) is winning at a 54% clip with a 85% in the money and that’s from a fairly large number of starters!

That's OK and everyone want to scream about punishing O'Neill.



What is the maximum win percentage an owner (or trainer) can have without
being accused of cheating?

[JustRalph]

What is the maximum win percentage an owner (or trainer) can have without
being accused of cheating?

I can tell you this........ 50+ percent....is pretty damning....... :lol:

It might be 20 percent at one track etc.....but 50 percent or better anywhere looks pretty bad to me.......unless he is losing tons of money dropping horses to insanely low levels for the wins.........

[PaceAdvantage]

Horseplayers have the right to expect a fair contest when they bet on a Horse Race.

Does everyone mean to tell me that a guy like Frank Calabrese (Owner) who is winning at a 54% clip with a 85% in the money and everyone here is worried about Doug O’neill? Does anyone seriously think that Illinois racing is a shining example of truth and justice?

Let me repeat that for everyone screaming about a fair game and how everyone should be punished. And how we should honor the testing in Illinois.

Frank Calabrese (Owner) is winning at a 54% clip with a 85% in the money and that’s from a fairly large number of starters!

That's OK and everyone want to scream about punishing O'Neill.

Until the industry sets uniformed standards and acceptable levels for various substances and medications there will continue to be problems.

The public outrage is almost always misplaced and directed at the wrong people and it is on display once again in this thread.

The people running racing are the problem because they don’t want to give up any power within their own little kindgoms. The Stewards and the CHRB are part of the problem. They don't apply the rules consistently or fairly in many instances. If people followed California racing as closely as I do they would know that.

I’ll stand alone on this one. Should O’Neill be suspended? Maybe. Did they have discretion on this one because the testing in Illinois is different from California? Yes. If the horse ran in California on the same day there would be no problem with the test.

California racing shouldn't be in this position in the first place if not for years of poor leadership.

Should racing have uniformed standards and punishments? Absolutely!Man, this sounds just like when you were decrying the treatment of Jeff Mullins during the NYRA detention barn scandal. Is it only California-based trainers you stick up for? :lol:

[andymays]

Man, this sounds just like when you were decrying the treatment of Jeff Mullins during the NYRA detention barn scandal. Is it only California-based trainers you stick up for? :lol:


I think I did a lot of defending Asmussen as well.

You have to remember I also had an ill fated future wager on I Want Revenge. ;)

Speaking of I Want Revenge, my boy is coming back in the Suburban this weekend I believe in the barn of another guy I've defended at times named Richard Dutrow.

Go Revenge! :ThmbUp:
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By the way I think we'll find out more about this subject in the next few days. The politics should be interesting.

[thaskalos]

IS O’NEILL PLAYING HARDBALL WITH CALIFORNIA OFFICIALS?

http://www.paulickreport.com/blog/is-oneill-playing-hardball-with-california-officials/

Excerpt:

Is O’Neill playing hardball with California racing officials? If this is his way of hitting back at the CHRB and its stewards because he is unhappy with their decision, he will also be hurting his fellow horsemen and California racing fans if any more programs are cancelled. – Ray Paulick

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ray figured it out.Of course Mr. O'Neill is playing hardball with the California racing officials. He can afford to play games since the suspension is only for 2 weeks.

If the punishment fit the crime (considering that he is a 3-time offender), and he was given a 1-year suspension...he would be singing a different song!

[andymays]

Of course Mr. O'Neill is playing hardball with the California racing officials. He can afford to play games since the suspension was only for 2 weeks.

If the punishment fit the crime (considering that he is a 3-time offender), and he was given a 1 year suspension...he would be singing a different song!

The offense you're speaking of is like going 63 mph in a 60 mph zone. Would you like it if a Highway Patrol Officer gave you a ticket for speeding at that rate? And further would you like it if they made the penalty the same as if you were going 100 mph?

[thaskalos]

The offense you're speaking of is like going 63 mph in a 60 mph zone. Would you like it if a Highway Patrol Officer gave you a ticket for speeding at that rate? And further would you like it if they made the penalty the same as if you were going 100 mph? Three suspensions for the same offense...and he gets 14 days?

Either you are playing with us or you are campaigning to be his press agent.

[Stillriledup]

The offense you're speaking of is like going 63 mph in a 60 mph zone. Would you like it if a Highway Patrol Officer gave you a ticket for speeding at that rate? And further would you like it if they made the penalty the same as if you were going 100 mph?

its simple, just refuse to drive on the roads after you get the ticket. THAT will show them CHiPs.

[andymays]

Three suspensions for the same offence...and he gets 14 days?

Either you are playing with us or you are campaigning to be his press agent.

Yes, if it was his first offense they probably wouldn't have given him any days given the circumstances and the shipping.

thaskalos, I think that probably 99% would agree with you on this matter. And I could give a flying "you know what" that I'm in the minority on the subject. I've fought these battles here and elswhere before. You can pull up other threads where I'm alone on things. That's why PA posted what he posted with a LOL. ;)

You and I have taken this to a useless point and the only thing left is to get personal and that doesn't help either of us or the others on the board.

Good Luck. :ThmbUp:

[andymays]

its simple, just refuse to drive on the roads after you get the ticket. THAT will show them CHiPs.
:lol:

[Roy C]

Maybe he can go to the farm and set up Lava Man for his next comeback while he is off.

[andymays]

Maybe he can go to the farm and set up Lava Man for his next comeback while he is off.


Didn't they train Lava Man to work around the track? I thought I read something about it a while back.

[Deepsix]

Yep.... ponying.

[andymays]

Yep.... ponying.

Good deal for him. :ThmbUp:

[Deepsix]

Sure is good to see the old speed merchants still on the track........

[thaskalos]

Yes, if it was his first offense they probably wouldn't have given him any days given the circumstances and the shipping.

thaskalos, I think that probably 99% would agree with you on this matter. And I could give a flying "you know what" that I'm in the minority on the subject. I've fought these battles here and elswhere before. You can pull up other threads where I'm alone on things.

You and I have taken this to a useless point and the only thing left is to get personal and that doesn't help either of us or the others on the board.

Good Luck. :ThmbUp: Andy...there is nothing personal going on except an honest disagreement about proper fan behavior.

You seem to think that any horseplayer who criticizes this game's drug policies is commiting the injustice of damaging the game's reputation.

I, on the other hand, feel that the game's reputation is so tainted...that unless the game is cleaned up, it will never achieve the greater mass appeal that it needs to survive. I don't think anything positive can be realised by the fan burying his head in the sand and denying the evils of the sport.

In any case...you are intitled to your opinion, and like you say...we'll have to agree to disagree.

[PaceAdvantage]

The offense you're speaking of is like going 63 mph in a 60 mph zone. Would you like it if a Highway Patrol Officer gave you a ticket for speeding at that rate? And further would you like it if they made the penalty the same as if you were going 100 mph?Deja vu all over again! :lol:

[andymays]

Andy...there is nothing personal going on except an honest disagreement about proper fan behavior.

You seem to think that any horseplayer who criticizes this game's drug policies is commiting the injustice of damaging the game's reputation.

I, on the other hand, feel that the game's reputation is so tainted...that unless the game is cleaned up, it will never achieve the greater mass appeal that it needs to survive. I don't think anything positive can be realised by the fan burying his head in the sand and denying the evils of the sport.

In any case...you are intitled to your opinion, and like you say...we'll have to agree to disagree.

I'll tell you what. You make the policy for the whole nation with uniformed testing and uniformed punishment and I'll vote for it so we can move on.

[andymays]

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/57678/oneill-begins-serving-15-day-suspension

Excerpt:

Schwartz said one reason there was no concerted effort to fight the Illinois stewards’ action was related to the procedures followed in that state the first time a horse tests positive for a TCO2 excessive level. He said that before disciplinary action is taken, the horse is tested again following its next start to see if the results were similar. If the TCO2 level tested the same or nearly the same, then it was not deemed to be a violation.

By the time the positive test came back, Stephen’s Got Hope was back in O’Neill’s barn in California and it would not have been practical nor fair to the owner of the horse to ship back to Illinois for another race just to see how he tested for TCO2.

In his presentation to the California stewards, Schwartz explained that O’Neill saddled horses in three other racing jurisdictions following the Illinois incident and that none of the states elected to recognize the suspension. He said California could have followed suit in not honoring the reciprocity in this case.

[kenwoodall2]

Not fighting- "It would have been difficult to achieve an ultimate outcome" favorable to his client, Schwartz said, adding that the issues of law and equity "are within the broad discretion of the stewards."
Other excuses- worker's comp in Ca too expensive to switch to Asst name, horse violating not available for followup test. (I'll bet O'Neill knew this too!)
This is a trainer's attorney admitting Ca has the discretion to refuse to allow a cheating trainer to run in Ca while on suspension in another state. (Some Eastern tracks have proven the discretion to deny stalls to cheating trainers.) Not tested yet is if racing secretaries have the discretion to add weight to cheating trainer's horses or to reward trainers with no positive PE drugs for 1 year by reducing carry weight 2 pounds.