Debate over Rebate

[karlskorner]

200 million dollar player survives with rebates

http://news.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=17336

[Valuist]

Hopefully the deadbeats who run racing will wake up and eliminate admission charges, parking and all the other charges we shouldn't have to pay for.

[karlskorner]

CRC treats their weekend players pretty good. Free parking, Free Clubhouse admission, Free Equibase program, Free gifts every couple of weeks (umbrellas, tote bags etc.) $1.00 hotdogs & beer, food festivals, shows for children. Free Mutual tickets (worth at least $2.00 - $5.00). Does bring out the crowds. Since the "movie" I have noticed at lot of younger people the past 2 weekends.

[andicap]

The rebate programs that have been instituted in this country are really weak. Autotote has its Trophy Club for its Connecticut OTB.
You've got to bet A LOT of money to get much of a reward. Lame, lame, lame.

I believe Americans should bet in America to keep the racetracks strong, but competition is always good and the tracks better wake up and treat the player better.

Now in order to fund rebates, would handicappers give up something? Say a cap on some huge payoffs like the 0ff-shore bookies have?
I doubt it.

[Lefty]

The article has it right. rebates should be encouraged not discouraged. Hey, almost any item you can name will give you a price break if you buy in bulk. Why should Parimutuel tickets be any different? If a person buys a $100 ticket(50 $2 tickets)should he not get a better deal than the guy who buys 1 $2 ticket? This would be done via rebates.
In this town(Vegas)Slot Players get all the rebates and the horse bettors are treated like 2nd class citizens. I'm doing more and more betting from home where I at least get a 3% rebate and I don't have to look at all the 30 something, fat so called homeless people who hang around the racebook I frequent.

[GameTheory]

If the takeout were really low, the would cut into the rebate rate that off-shore outfits (and Racing Services) could offer, while also directly benefitting the U.S. bettor.

It would also benefit the tracks themselves with more net revenue, but they're too stupid to figure that out.

[kitts]

Lefty-

Sorry-a tad off subject, but I do only phone betting up here so where can I get 3%??

[Lefty]

Kitts,
www.betehorse.com

[Valuist]

Lefty-

How long have you been using betehorse? I'm interested but I don't like the fact they don't take Pic 3s or Pic 4s. But getting the rebates is like a reduction in takeout.

[Lefty]

Valuist, think it has been 8-9 mos or so. I have been using them mostly Mon, Tues but going to use them more. They send me a rebate announcement every Mon telling me how much I bet and how much the rebate is and it's automatically added to my acct. No complaints so far.

[kitts]

Lefty,

Thanks. I'll check it out. Us Nevada boys have to stick together <g>

[VetScratch]

If the $200-million whale story is credible, it would seem to support those who contend that access to a computer-fed high-velocity wagering link is still being offered.

While some reports say the high-velocity link(s) got severed, it seems implausible that $200-million from one player is entering the system without some sort of privileged access.

[GameTheory]

"One player" is probably a team operating with one account, and I can assure you it is quite possible....

[VetScratch]

I still say not "without some sort of privileged access."

Some facilities must be reserved, whether it be mutuel windows, telephone lines, or some other access method so that the "player representatives" don't get queued behind a bunch of small fish.

If they want to get down late, most big players make some sort of privileged arrangement with mutuel clerks at the track. Such arrangements are against policy and always anger other players.

[GameTheory]

Well, ok, I agree with that, but the real-time link to the pools has been severed and the ability to make dozens of wagers instantly via computer at the last second.

If a track wants to give a big bettor a personal terminal or even personal teller, I have no problem with that. Same with phone or internet betting if they want to dedicate resources to certain customers. I mean, duh, they're the biggest customers -- why shouldn't they be taken care of?

[VetScratch]

I'm not espousing a noble cause, just pointing out the obvious.

Most big barn bets are privileged action. When you are running at the majority of racetracks, you can feed the exotics without disasterously undue notice, but you want to hit the WPS pools at the last possible moment. This is easy to pre-arrange with a cooperating mutuel clerk, but it still amounts to privileged access. The players who get shut out are never happy when your clerk stops taking action to punch out a wad of tickets that you pick up after the bell.

[VetScratch]

BTW, I said wad of tickets because many simulcast and on-track pari-mutuel setups put a $n00 per single wager limit on all but the high-denomination windows. Thus, tickets must be repeated. The high-denomination windows are usually avoided because that is where you shut out folks with enough clout to cause trouble, especially for the clerks.

[LOU M.]

The whole point is ,rebates lower the take which makes winners of some losers.This is NOT a new concept.Beyer ad nauseum.Everyone should send an e-mail or letter to their respective track. But the modus operandi of any corporation is to get aid from the government. Lower our taxes, give us (the corporation )a tax rebate.God fobid they(the corporation) should actually have to give back ,to their customers some of their income to increase their income,or create a better product to increase ones income.Corporations are into increasing their bottom line by government help rather than actually earning it.Why spend millions to increase your bottom line,when you can donate thousands to a whore politician to get legislation passed to add millions to the bottom line without all the headaches.Horsetracks had a monopoly on their product,now they don't. Their answer will be to stifle competition through the whore politician. Any disagreement?

[VetScratch]

Lowering takeout to eliminate taxation is a cause similar to repealing excise taxes on liquor and cigarettes. Some would argue that gambling, drinking, and smoking must be taxed to compensate for costs incurred by a society that extends welfare to the sick and poor.

One part of takeout that cannot evaporate is whatever share is required (along with ancillary revenues) to pay for the racing infrastructure of tracks, OTBs, and even web wagering. Not without some controversy, many tracks present state authorities and horsemens' associations with financial statements that show an operating loss (or a loss until admissions, concessions, and other revenues are included). In states where tracks control OTBs, such reporting often excludes OTBs as a ploy whereby track owners plead poverty in their negotiations with both state authorities and horsemens' associations. Too many horsemens' associations have agreed to inadequate percentages from off-track takeout while owners plead poverty with on-track numbers.

The most important part of takeout that must be preserved and enhanced is the share that funds purses. In all cases, off-track wagering contributes a smaller percentage to purses than on-track wagering. Thus, if total handle is steady but off-track handle grows, purses must suffer.

Using Round Numbers:
At SAR, average daily purses are about $600K. If all wagering came from domestic simulcasting outside NY, daily handle would have to exceed $30-million to support this purse structure. The current approximate total handle is about $15-million. If you move this handle off-shore, racing ceases. If you move it all off-track, Saratoga is endangered and purses substantially decline.

If you want good racing, how do you propose to pay for it?

[kenwoodallpromos]

Problems listed are real, but I have to work around the unfairness to profit. A lot of businesses treat better customers better with discounts, better service, or special privileges. But if it leads to unfair odds, like the late betting priviledge, it should be corrected. Just remember gambling businesses love losers and hate winners and have to give more privileges to the bigger losers to keep them. Whales who were winners would not get rebates.

[VetScratch]

kenwoodallpromos,

I totally agree with the concept of fair, but I am pessamistic about its future.

All legislatures have been presented with financial impact studies that show the economic benefits of racing reach far beyond the pari-mutuels.

Each horse in each state breeding program generates many more economic benefits than a salary paid to a blackjack dealer or a slot machine attendent. The problem is that economic theory (like the the velocity of money) is hard to translate into votes.

In recent years, some states have vountarily reduced the share of takeout that goes to taxes and have backed measures that are aimed at enhancing the state breeding program.

What seems unfair and shortsighted are deals for short-term gains in handle that ultimately spell doom and disaster. If everyone gets a 5% rebate, takeout must rise by 5%, and the stragglers among those who flock to rebates pay a penalty every step of the way.

Similar arguments can be made for other privileged arrangements.

If I saw any glimmer of hope, I would join the fairness crusade. As things stand, however, I see no way to compete with everyone else without joining the Unfair Brigade. When all the damage is done, another cycle of stupidity can sprout from new and different playing field. Maybe virtual horses will be substituted for live ones!

[Lefty]

Vet, I submit that if the takeout were lowered the handle would go up. Anytime you put more money in the hands of the consumers they spend it.

[VetScratch]

Lefty,
If they were on the ball like other industries, we could have variable-rate takeout adjusted periodically to give the betters a break without breaking the industry.

I also think states should go to zero taxation on racing and get their tax revenues from the economic benefits spawned by the horse industry.

Let's keep our eyes on purses at the new track in Fargo. If RSI maintains and increases it's whale-base, ND maidens should be running for about $200K in a five-horse field!

Probably, five guys who hang out in the RSI Green Room will own them all.

I found the minutes of a ND state racing commission quarterly meeting on the web. It was hilarious; a conference call between the officials with the CEO of RSI sitting in!

:) :) :)

BTW, Lefty, do you remember Johnny Quinn?

[Lefty]

Vet, name sounds familiar but, can't place him; memory not the greatest these days either.

[VetScratch]

Lefty,
I saw your post in "Where Are They Now". Quinn and your friend at the Stardust were legendary racebook/sportsbook guys.

Decades ago, Quinn hired my dad to write the first racebook/sportsbook system that eventually went into many of the books. From stories I've heard, the horseplayers got much better treatment back in those days... whereas today, the slot players get all the comps and rebates. Quinn and his writers also sound like they were real story-book characters from the golden age in Vegas. I guess you could walk up to the window and say, "I want to make $100. How much do you need to parlay #94 at Belmont to the Braves if Spahn goes?" Without blinking, the old-time writers could get you down on that proposition.

[VetScratch]

BTW, I meant "dubious friend" and your wife was lucky, but hooray for her!

[Lefty]

Vet, when the wife worked at the Stardust I never went there as I never liked to "hang out" where she was working.
Wife's name is Wanda and I call her Wanda Woman. Once when she worked at Stratosphere she was mugged in parking lot, well, that was the intention anyway. She subdued the mugger and turned him over to security.
These days she's still a cashier and catches more credit card thieves and check "rings" than anyone.

[VetScratch]

Lefty, she must be one of those with uncanny perception... spots signs and tip-offs that others miss. Now, if you can just get her to apply her rare talent to paddock watching, you'll be in Fat City!
:) :) :)

[Lefty]

Unfortunately she has no interest in horse racing.
She's studied credit cards and checks and can spot a phony very quickly.