Has 'turf handicapping' changed over the years?

[Stillriledup]

I remember when i was a young handicapper in the 1980s, there was a huge difference between turf runners and dirt runners. If you didn't have specific 'turf breeding' you weren't going to do well.

Now, especially in California, it seems to me that horses handle the turf much better than they used to. I remember a time when Del Mar had a lush, deep turf course and the grass was so high the horses feet would disappear. Now, its like a carpet of stone with green spraypaint on top.

When i handicap the races in SO Cal and i see a horse that's 'first time turf' i dont even consider that he might not handle the surface. If his 'dirt' form is good, i just handicap the race as if he is a factor. Too many first time turf horses, without 'classic turf breeding' do well on the surface in So Cal.

Maybe its different back east and the courses are more giving and you really have to have turf breeding in order to perform well, it just seems like more horses now than ever have the ability to transfer their good dirt/synth form onto the green.

[shouldacoulda]

Saratoga had grass so high last year you couldn't see the hooves. At Colonial though the grass looks like a carpet. Interesting point you brought up. I could swear I remember someone explaining that turf horses have a higher stride. Maybe the shorter turf helps the lower striding dirt runners.

[hoovesupsideyourhe]

take a look at ascot..where real turf horses run.with no lasix or bute..that grass is high..

[OTM Al]

Turf runners, at least good ones, just plain look different than dirt runners. This was no more evident to me than when I saw Curlin in the paddock before he ran in his lone turf start. He looked nothing like the others in the race. They require different skill sets because of the way the surface runs and the dynamics involved in the race. The more baked and hard the turf course, the more it's dynamic can resemble dirt, but a well maintained, fresh grass course is just different.

[PhantomOnTour]

Technically, aren't they all bred to run on grass? It's their 'natural' surface.

[OTM Al]

Technically, aren't they all bred to run on grass? It's their 'natural' surface.

Years of programmed breeding to bring out the traits best suited to run on dirt in the US would make that answer "no"

[PhantomOnTour]

Years of programmed breeding to bring out the traits best suited to run on dirt in the US would make that answer "no"
Which is why I laugh when folks put out their lists of polytrack/AWS sires. Won't it be a hundred years or so (if that crap is still around) before we truly establish polytrack sires and bloodlines?

[PhantomOnTour]

Okay, maybe not a hundred years, but quite awhile.

[kenwoodall2]

Worldwide active stallions bred: 1991-6696; 2009-2800+. les specialization, more surprize winners. Also, 1990 forward is when I noticed the turf at SoCal had pars faster than the dirt track.

[xfile]

For me LATE PACE and TURF PEDIGREE weigh heavily. I also like it if the jockey has a good record on turf (TURF JOCKEY) and the horse has the best final time speed rating on the turf at any distance (FINAL TIME +T). Today's distance no matter. Any of those aspects AND going off at 8-1 or higher is my thing.

[speed]

For me LATE PACE and TURF PEDIGREE weigh heavily. I also like it if the jockey has a good record on turf (TURF JOCKEY) and the horse has the best final time speed rating on the turf at any distance (FINAL TIME +T). Today's distance no matter. Any of those aspects AND going off at 8-1 or higher is my thing.


I'm having a little trouble making out what you type. Perhaps if you could try typing with larger letters? :)

The journeymen at the NYC OTB would love you.

[OTM Al]

Okay, maybe not a hundred years, but quite awhile.

Probably not so long. Certain traits are already there that are suited for poly, so I don't find it surprising that some bloodlines are better at it than others. Difference is that it hasn't really been bred for yet to further refine ability on poly like it has been for dirt or grass. The genes are there, just not concentrated yet.

[46zilzal]

Bonnie Lebetter did an entire section in one of her tapes on the differences between a grass and dirt stride the former being higher.

[PaceAdvantage]

I'm having a little trouble making out what you type. Perhaps if you could try typing with larger letters? :) I second that request...surely you can enlarge your font even more... :rolleyes:

[xfile]

For me LATE PACE and TURF PEDIGREE weigh heavily. I also like it if the jockey has a good record on turf (TURF JOCKEY) and the horse has the best final time speed rating on the turf at any distance (FINAL TIME +T). Today's distance no matter. Any of those aspects AND going off at 8-1 or higher is my thing.

[bisket]

i'll go with speed more often on the turf courses that have grass cut short. one reason speed wins more often at say santa anita, and monmouth is because the stretch is so short at those tracks and the grass tends to be cut short. i made my biggest wager on the nose in a long time on english channel in the cup turf event at monmouth. there was little doubt in my mind anyone would catch him in the race. if the race takes place on a course in which the grass is cut longer i try to trip handicap the race. most times theres 4-5 horses that have the class and closing kick to win, but the winner is usually the one that makes it to the hole first at the top of the stretch.

[Dahoss9698]

i'll go with speed more often on the turf courses that have grass cut short. one reason speed wins more often at say santa anita, and monmouth is because the stretch is so short at those tracks and the grass tends to be cut short. i made my biggest wager on the nose in a long time on english channel in the cup turf event at monmouth. there was little doubt in my mind anyone would catch him in the race. if the race takes place on a course in which the grass is cut longer i try to trip handicap the race. most times theres 4-5 horses that have the class and closing kick to win, but the winner is usually the one that makes it to the hole first at the top of the stretch.

Clever redboard, but the Monmouth course was a total bog for the BC. When the turf is that soft how could how long or short the grass is effect anything?

[KingChas]

No turf handicapping has not changed dramatically.
But as many have stated the courses have.
I watch turf races were horses are getting dirt kicked in their face.
To me a golf green grasscut is not a turf course.

[Valuist]

Breeding is only a factor when a horse does not have established form over a given surface. If you have a horse with an excellent turf pedigree who's proven they CANT handle grass (say at least 4 races), why would anyone want to bet on them?

[grexxon]

One day they run and the dogs are 15ft out, the next day 35ft and more.
I think truf is the hardest race to picks winners.

[JohnGalt1]

I have learned a lot from fairly recent books like "Handicapping Magic" by Michael Pizzola.

[PaceAdvantage]

For me LATE PACE and TURF PEDIGREE weigh heavily. I also like it if the jockey has a good record on turf (TURF JOCKEY) and the horse has the best final time speed rating on the turf at any distance (FINAL TIME +T). Today's distance no matter. Any of those aspects AND going off at 8-1 or higher is my thing.
Good one...(I am of course referring to the spiteful tiny font size... :lol: )

[speed]

For me LATE PACE and TURF PEDIGREE weigh heavily. I also like it if the jockey has a good record on turf (TURF JOCKEY) and the horse has the best final time speed rating on the turf at any distance (FINAL TIME +T). Today's distance no matter. Any of those aspects AND going off at 8-1 or higher is my thing.



Finally stumbled upon a reason to purchase binoculars

LMAO

[BlueShoe]

Speed seems to be holding up better on the turf than it used to. Stalker pressers and wire to wire winners not that rare. Thirty or forty years ago most runners sent early and put on the lead almost always lost, the deep closers usually inhaled them in deep stretch. Today, that does not always happen. Billiard table hard courses, changes in riding tactics, and breeding all perhaps contribute.

[bisket]

Clever redboard, but the Monmouth course was a total bog for the BC. When the turf is that soft how could how long or short the grass is effect anything?
it was more an issue of track configuration than the condition of the truf course. he never lost at monmouth on the turf.

[FrankieFigs]

Through the years, I have had more success with turf races than dirt (can't play Poly for crap). I use many of the tools already mentioned. I also like to take the dam's class into play. If she was a stakeswinner and/or ran at a high level of competition, this is valuable in the lower level (MdnClm, Clm) races. Have found several good prices in the past taking this into consideration.