Godolphin, geniuses

[cj]

From Dave Grening.....

Sara Louise has second breeze

Sara Louise, who has not run since winning the Grade 2 Top Flight last Nov. 27, worked three furlongs in 38.12 seconds over the main track on Friday. It was her second three-furlong breeze of the year.

Sara Louise, who came off a long layoff to win the Grade 2 Victory Ride at Saratoga last year, is targeting that race again, according to assistant trainer Rick Mettee. The Victory Ride is run at Saratoga on Aug. 28.

"She's not going to be ready for the Bed o' Roses [on July 4]," Mettee said. "We'll take our time with her a little bit, we know she's going to fire well fresh."

I guess this isn't as bad as not knowing a horse you buy has been gelded, but it is pretty bad.

[toussaud]

doh!

[samyn on the green]

She was born in a leap year, she is still eligible.

[gm10]

From Dave Grening.....


I guess this isn't as bad as not knowing a horse you buy has been gelded, but it is pretty bad.


The Victory Stakes is a grade 3, not a grade 2. I think the journo has a few things mixed up - he might be referring to the Gallant Bloom where she was second last year and which is a grade 2 and which is for 3yo and up.

[kenwoodall2]

Few and far between, but it works for this horse! This is just the extreme for treating horses like individual athletes. I much prefer that to over racing them without a clue!

[lamboguy]

you can say whatever you want about godolphin, but hey treat their horses alot better than some of the people they rule in their homeland.

[the little guy]

you can say whatever you want about godolphin, but hey treat their horses alot better than some of the people they rule in their homeland.


I'm actually serious here.....

Are you suggesting this is good or bad?

[cj]

The Victory Stakes is a grade 3, not a grade 2. I think the journo has a few things mixed up - he might be referring to the Gallant Bloom where she was second last year and which is a grade 2 and which is for 3yo and up.

I think the trainer has a few things mixed up. I'm not surprised you would assume the opposite though.

[gm10]

I think the trainer has a few things mixed up. I'm not surprised you would assume the opposite though.

If you want to base your judgment of the intelligence of one of the largest stables in the world on a few lines from a confused reporter, go ahead, it's OK to be prejudiced. It's Sunday.

[toussaud]

If you want to base your judgment of the intelligence of one of the largest stables in the world on a few lines from a confused reporter, go ahead, it's OK to be prejudiced. It's Sunday.


or them losing over 20 million dollars a year in Australia, or how they keep taking talented horses from their trainers, to give them to their head guy where he proceeds to make them run up, around, down, back the track. See Cocolaro yesterday.

Or how they had the chance to buy either Sara Louise or Rachel and chose Sara Louise.

Or how of the three breeders cup they have won since 2001, 2 of them, were trained outside of their normal operations. one was trained by bob baffert becuase they had just bought him (midshipman) and had no time to transfer him and the other (ravens pass) was trained by John Gosden.

[the little guy]

If you want to base your judgment of the intelligence of one of the largest stables in the world on a few lines from a confused reporter, go ahead, it's OK to be prejudiced. It's Sunday.

That " confused reporter " is Dave Grening who is the best there is covering the game from his perspective.

You never get ANYTHING right.

[gm10]

That " confused reporter " is Dave Grening who is the best there is covering the game from his perspective.

You never get ANYTHING right.

If the best there is doesn't know the difference between grade 2 and 3 then I think there is room for improvement in general standards.

Anyway, my guess is that something was said as part of a longer conversation and either Mettee misspoke or Grenig misheard. Who cares, she's not going to run in that race.

[PhantomOnTour]

The article on the DRF home page this morning about the Mike Lee Stakes at Belmont this afternoon, which was written by Dave Grening, began with, "Saturday's 100k Mike Lee Stakes...", the race is today--SUNDAY--the error has since been fixed.

I am not taking sides here, but an article by Grening had the wrong day for a race.

[Striker]

That's a bad rumor out there with Tahitian Warrior. I know people in the Calabrese camp and trust me Godolphin knew he was a gelding when they purchased. Yes, not a smart buy but they knew what they were buying.

[the little guy]

If the best there is doesn't know the difference between grade 2 and 3 then I think there is room for improvement in general standards.

Anyway, my guess is that something was said as part of a longer conversation and either Mettee misspoke or Grenig misheard. Who cares, she's not going to run in that race.


What does the grading of the race have to do with this?

[Linny]

If you want to base your judgment of the intelligence of one of the largest stables in the world on a few lines from a confused reporter, go ahead, it's OK to be prejudiced. It's Sunday.

Grening doesn't get "confused" too often on the subject of NY racing. My guess is that Mettee (no idiot himself) may have been of the belief that the race was for 3up and Dave wrote the quote down and it made it into print. Knopwing Dave and Rick, I can't take it as a reflection of the collective brainpower of Godolphin. It's not like Sh. Mo is plotting out individual starts for all 500 or so of his horses.

[gm10]

Grening doesn't get "confused" too often on the subject of NY racing. My guess is that Mettee (no idiot himself) may have been of the belief that the race was for 3up and Dave wrote the quote down and it made it into print. Knopwing Dave and Rick, I can't take it as a reflection of the collective brainpower of Godolphin. It's not like Sh. Mo is plotting out individual starts for all 500 or so of his horses.

Grening did call the Victory Ride a grade 2 when it is a grade 3. I think they got their wires crossed somewhere during the conversation. They certainly know better, both of them.

[gm10]

That's a bad rumor out there with Tahitian Warrior. I know people in the Calabrese camp and trust me Godolphin knew he was a gelding when they purchased. Yes, not a smart buy but they knew what they were buying.

I think it was CJ who started or at least popularized this rumour. Maybe he wants to present evidence for it on this occasion.

[cj]

I think it was CJ who started or at least popularized this rumour. Maybe he wants to present evidence for it on this occasion.

I didn't start it, but I have very good info it is true. If not, why try to renegotiate the price later? The price itself of the horse pretty much assures they didn't know even with no "rumors" being floated around.

[gm10]

I didn't start it, but I have very good info it is true. If not, why try to renegotiate the price later? The price itself of the horse pretty much assures they didn't know even with no "rumors" being floated around.

So we should just take your word for it?

:rolleyes:

Your 'good info' is worthless if it is not verifiable.

[the little guy]

So we should just take your word for it?

:rolleyes:

Your 'good info' is worthless if it is not verifiable.


Instead of just reacting defensively, think about this.....

Let's say the rumor isn't correct, which is certainly possible, then that means they paid $2 million for a gelding. Not just any gelding, mind you, but one that had made ONE start. Thus, it is fair to assume that this horse needs to earn about $3 million dollars to effectively break even, as he has zero residual value.

[cj]

So we should just take your word for it?

:rolleyes:

Your 'good info' is worthless if it is not verifiable.

Much like yours about this and the whole Street Sense purchase price. He said, she said.

[gm10]

Instead of just reacting defensively, think about this.....

Let's say the rumor isn't correct, which is certainly possible, then that means they paid $2 million for a gelding. Not just any gelding, mind you, but one that had made ONE start. Thus, it is fair to assume that this horse needs to earn about $3 million dollars to effectively break even, as he has zero residual value.

Not sure why you want to move the goal posts on this, but no, he wasn't cheap. He will win some nice races, though, he was not quite ready last time out.

[gm10]

Much like yours about this and the whole Street Sense purchase price. He said, she said.

have a look on google and you will probably find several quotes for 80 million (20 million below the little guy's guess)

I wish I could find the same for your statement which is curiously vague once again

[the little guy]

Not sure why you want to move the goal posts on this, but no, he wasn't cheap. He will win some nice races, though, he was not quite ready last time out.


You are truly the gift that keeps on giving.

[the little guy]

have a look on google and you will probably find several quotes for 80 million (20 million below the little guy's guess)

I wish I could find the same for your statement which is curiously vague once again

And giving.....

[cj]

have a look on google and you will probably find several quotes for 80 million (20 million below the little guy's guess)

I wish I could find the same for your statement which is curiously vague once again

Since the purchases are private, I doubt the Google searches are conclusive.

As for my sources, well, divulging them usually leads to them not being your sources for very long. I have no reason not to believe the story though as my source has been very accurate for a long time. I'm not sure what was vague. I have been told they did not know the horse was a gelding and tried to renegotiate the sales price after the fact. Of course, they were laughed off. For the record, I've heard it from two reliable sources that have nothing to do with each other.

[gm10]

Since the purchases are private, I doubt the Google searches are conclusive.

As for my sources, well, divulging them usually leads to them not being your sources for very long. I have no reason not to believe the story though as my source has been very accurate for a long time. I'm not sure what was vague. I have been told they did not know the horse was a gelding and tried to renegotiate the sales price after the fact. Of course, they were laughed off. For the record, I've heard it from two reliable sources that have nothing to do with each other.

Well I've got the 'good info' that flatly denies your claim. Of course, you are the one who has to prove it as you are making the claim.

And it is truly remarkable that, although you didn't start the rumour, the sources that you are keeping so close to your chest, have seen their 'good info' being reported on this message board anyway.

[cj]

Well I've got the 'good info' that flatly denies your claim. Of course, you are the one who has to prove it as you are making the claim.

And it is truly remarkable that, although you didn't start the rumour, the sources that you are keeping so close to your chest, have seen their 'good info' being reported on this message board anyway.

Well, we are both making claims.

Like I said, whatever you want to believe is fine with me. At some point I'm sure you'll call me prejudiced again which is always a nice, classy touch.

[the little guy]

The funny question about the $2 million gelding is which is worse.....paying the money knowing it was a gelding or not knowing.

I'll take the former.

[cj]

The funny question about the $2 million gelding is which is worse.....paying the money knowing it was a gelding or not knowing.

I'll take the former.

That is that part that makes the story very believable.

[Bettowin]

Shrewd sellers. $2 million for the horse and another $2 million for the rest of his equipment:)

[gm10]

The funny question about the $2 million gelding is which is worse.....paying the money knowing it was a gelding or not knowing.

I'll take the former.

He's a gelding, so he has plenty of time to collect purse money. But above all they thought he was an excellent candidate for the UAE Derby, which aside from its purse of 2 million dollar, is a prestigious race for them to win.

[the little guy]

He's a gelding, so he has plenty of time to collect purse money. But above all they thought he was an excellent candidate for the UAE Derby, which aside from its purse of 2 million dollar, is a prestigious race for them to win.

It's sort of staggering the levels you will go to in an effort to defend Godolphin.

You can't possibly believe the BS you write here. Nobody could.

[gm10]

It's sort of staggering the levels you will go to in an effort to defend Godolphin.

You can't possibly believe the BS you write here. Nobody could.

Hang on - are you disagreeing with my last post?
Please clarify.

[the little guy]

Hang on - are you disagreeing with my last post?
Please clarify.


Your last post, unsurprisingly, was nonsensical. It would be impossible to agree with it.

[gm10]

Your last post, unsurprisingly, was nonsensical. It would be impossible to agree with it.

First thing they did when they got him? Enter him for the UAE Derby.
Don't believe me? Contact the racing office at Dubai and let me know how Arabian humble pie tastes like.

You are simply full of crap. Everything single thing you pretend to know about them is just wrong.

[the little guy]

How many horses of theirs were nominated to the UAE Derby ( which, in case you are interested, is funded by them )?

Being a sycophant has eliminated your ability to see anything to do with them clearly.

[gm10]

How many horses of theirs were nominated to the UAE Derby ( which, in case you are interested, is funded by them )?

Being a sycophant has eliminated your ability to see anything to do with them clearly.

You're hiding behind some stupid insults now. That's weak.

[speed]

How many horses of theirs were nominated to the UAE Derby ( which, in case you are interested, is funded by them )?

Being a sycophant has eliminated your ability to see anything to do with them clearly.

I get pissed off when i have to get the dictionary out to finish reading a post.

Come to think of it i needed the dictionary 3 times while reading Green Eggs and Ham.

[the little guy]

I'll assume that means you don't want to reveal that pretty much every horse they owned that was eligible for the race was nominated.

Don't worry, everybody already knew that.

[DeanT]

Shrewd sellers. $2 million for the horse and another $2 million for the rest of his equipment:)

Maybe they have some special proprietary surgery to attach things. It would be quite the coup :)

Hey, it worked for John Bobbitt.

[gm10]

I'll assume that means you don't want to reveal that pretty much every horse they owned that was eligible for the race was nominated.

Don't worry, everybody already knew that.

This is pointless. That last statement is another blind shot at the same target and again you are off by a mile. I am done with you. You aren't even ignorant or prejudiced, you are dishonest, pure and simple.

[cj]

This is pointless. That last statement is another blind shot at the same target and again you are off by a mile. I am done with you. You aren't even ignorant or prejudiced, you are dishonest, pure and simple.

It seems to me you are prejudiced against those that know more than you about racing, which is pretty much everyone with a pulse.

[gm10]

It seems to me you are prejudiced against those that know more than you about racing, which is pretty much everyone with a pulse.

I don't know what your problem is, but that certainly wasn't what I would call classy either.

"At some point I'm sure you'll call me prejudiced again which is always a nice, classy touch." (http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=920528&postcount=29)

[the little guy]

This is pointless. That last statement is another blind shot at the same target and again you are off by a mile. I am done with you. You aren't even ignorant or prejudiced, you are dishonest, pure and simple.


And I was so striving for ignorance and prejudice.

Damn.

[cj]

I don't know what your problem is, but that certainly wasn't what I would call classy either.

"At some point I'm sure you'll call me prejudiced again which is always a nice, classy touch." (http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=71998&page=2&pp=15)

Why would I be respectful to you when twice you have tried to say I'm prejudiced? Maybe that is my problem?

[gm10]

And I was so striving for ignorance and prejudice.

Damn.

For once I'm inclined to believe you.

[gm10]

Why would I be respectful to you when twice you have tried to say I'm prejudiced? Maybe that is my problem?

I admit, I don't what your problem is. When I look at your other posts, I suspect it's something else. But when the conversation turns to our Arab friends, it sure sounds like prejudice.

Not being unclassy - just answering your question ;).

[the little guy]

So, if someone doesn't agree with something Godolphin does they are a racist.

You really are precious.

[JustRalph]

So, if someone doesn't agree with something Godolphin does they are a racist.

You really are precious.

I have heard this theory somewhere before?

[the little guy]

I have heard this theory somewhere before?

I wonder where.

The funny thing is I actually love a lot of Godolphin horses. I even, very cleverly may I add, made a big bet on Tahitian Warrior the other day.

[gm10]

So, if someone doesn't agree with something Godolphin does they are a racist.

You really are precious.

Agreeing has nothing to do with it, does it? He seems mainly out to discredit them. Which is a shame. They care for their horses, are not afraid to enter good horses in tough spots, and pump god knows how many millions from other industries into this one.

[the little guy]

Agreeing has nothing to do with it, does it? He seems mainly out to discredit them. Which is a shame. They care for their horses, are not afraid to enter good horses in tough spots, and pump god knows how many millions from other industries into this one.


Don't ever make the mistake of thinking I would take your side over CJ's. It will never happen.

[cj]

Agreeing has nothing to do with it, does it? He seems mainly out to discredit them. Which is a shame. They care for their horses, are not afraid to enter good horses in tough spots, and pump god knows how many millions from other industries into this one.

That is one side of what they do for American racing. The other side is they siphon off a lot of horses that never return. They retire many horses way too early. Many other horses seem to disintegrate in their care. I really don't care what they pump into the breeding industry since I'm not a breeder. I do think they are helping keep prices artificially high because of they over pay time and time again. So, other than the people lucky enough to fleece them, I think they hurt the sport.

But, all of that is just my opinion. It has nothing to do with them being Arab, or Muslim, or Chinese, or Irish, or whatever. I personally think they are bad for the sport from a bettor's perspective...nothing more. I do enjoy when they do something stupid for this reason. So, be honest, why do you take their side at every single turn?

[Fager Fan]

Well I've got the 'good info' that flatly denies your claim. Of course, you are the one who has to prove it as you are making the claim.

And it is truly remarkable that, although you didn't start the rumour, the sources that you are keeping so close to your chest, have seen their 'good info' being reported on this message board anyway.

Really think someone pays $2 million for a gelding with only a debut start? On what universe does someone do that? Even the Shiekh, the most notorious over-spender in racing, doesn't do that.

Use some common sense.

[Fager Fan]

He's a gelding, so he has plenty of time to collect purse money. But above all they thought he was an excellent candidate for the UAE Derby, which aside from its purse of 2 million dollar, is a prestigious race for them to win.

Plenty of time? It's hard to believe that you're saying what you're saying. Do you know how few horses have made $2 million on the track? You say that as if a horse is just given enough time, it'll make $2 million.

[gm10]

That is one side of what they do for American racing. The other side is they siphon off a lot of horses that never return. They retire many horses way too early. Many other horses seem to disintegrate in their care. I really don't care what they pump into the breeding industry since I'm not a breeder. I do think they are helping keep prices artificially high because of they over pay time and time again. So, other than the people lucky enough to fleece them, I think they hurt the sport.

But, all of that is just my opinion. It has nothing to do with them being Arab, or Muslim, or Chinese, or Irish, or whatever. I personally think they are bad for the sport from a bettor's perspective...nothing more. I do enjoy when they do something stupid for this reason. So, be honest, why do you take their side at every single turn?

I don't. I think their main mistake is being too ambitious with their horses. They only buy with an eye on some future group races, but they should get real with some of them, and just run them in realistic spots.
I can also tell you that some animals 'disintegrate' because they get some real drugballs who never run the same again because Godolphin is basically a much cleaner trainer.

Bad for the sport? I don't see how. Yes, prices are high and this inflates purses. But tell me something. What do you think the real value of a horse is if we just look at the bare economics of the industry. Forget wealthy buyers and slot revenue, just look at what horse racing can realistically generate by itself. Not much, I believe.
Anyway, why do you call this bad for the sport and the bettors? I don't understand how you get there.

[Linny]

I can't speak to the ones in Europe, but Rick Mettee does a pretty good job of spotting them in the US. He got Pyro a G1 last summer at Saratoga, in a full field, something many though couldn't happen. They have won a bunch of major races in summer and fall.
While I think that sending horses to Dubai with an eye to training them for US campaigns is mis-guided, they own the horses and can do as they please. I think that many of their young prospects (like the 2 last winter) would have been better off in the long run had they stayed with their US trainers while part of the "Darley" brand and run in traditional TC preps. The best 3yo they ever campaigned in the US was Bernardini and he missed the Derby because of greeness but 2 weeks later was ready for the Preakness and then a very nice campaign.
I don't understand why, after finding that a horse thrives on dirt (or now synthetic) in Dubai, they would then send them back to Europe instead of the US. They have insisted on continuing to try horses on grass that clearly were superior on dirt. I don't think bin Suroor has much idea what it takes to win big US races, but Rick Mettee does. He has alot of work to do every year when his horses return from Suroor's care in the springtime.

[Fager Fan]

I don't. I think their main mistake is being too ambitious with their horses. They only buy with an eye on some future group races, but they should get real with some of them, and just run them in realistic spots.
I can also tell you that some animals 'disintegrate' because they get some real drugballs who never run the same again because Godolphin is basically a much cleaner trainer.

Bad for the sport? I don't see how. Yes, prices are high and this inflates purses. But tell me something. What do you think the real value of a horse is if we just look at the bare economics of the industry. Forget wealthy buyers and slot revenue, just look at what horse racing can realistically generate by itself. Not much, I believe.
Anyway, why do you call this bad for the sport and the bettors? I don't understand how you get there.

What proof do you have for that claim? You don't know that the horses they bought had been running on illegal drugs, nor do you know that Godolphin is any "cleaner" than any other outfit. You're aware that the Sheikh himself got suspended in the endurance sport world for his horses testing positive for illegal drugs?

The Sheikh driving up prices in the bloodstock market was never good for racing. The sport as a whole suffered for it as they became more valuable retired than running and by owners having to spend more to get horses they should've been able to get for lower prices.

[the little guy]

I can also tell you that some animals 'disintegrate' because they get some real drugballs who never run the same again because Godolphin is basically a much cleaner trainer.




The hits just keep on coming.

Let me guess, this came from yet another of your reliable sources?

[cj]

The hits just keep on coming.

Let me guess, this came from yet another of your reliable sources?

You would think an outfit as sharp as theirs would be able to identify "drugged out" horses.

[gm10]

Plenty of time? It's hard to believe that you're saying what you're saying. Do you know how few horses have made $2 million on the track? You say that as if a horse is just given enough time, it'll make $2 million.

Well, it is what it is.
He was bought for the UAE - a win there would have been worth more than 2 million in publicity for them.

Anyway - watch him next time. If he doesn't show up, the proverbial vultures like CJ and the little sycophant will of course have a field day. However, I'm not one of those who pretend to know it all AFTER the events. My prediction is that he's sitting on a big race and ready for a good second half of the season.

[the little guy]

You would think an outfit as sharp as theirs would be able to identify "drugged out" horses.

Maybe they are buying them in some great humanitarian/rehabilitation project.

[cj]

Well, it is what it is.
He was bought for the UAE - a win there would have been worth more than 2 million in publicity for them.

Anyway - watch him next time. If he doesn't show up, the proverbial vultures like CJ and the little sycophant will of course have a field day. However, I'm not one of those who pretend to know it all AFTER the events. My prediction is that he's sitting on a big race and ready for a good second half of the season.

Well, if you remember right, I brought this up long before he raced a second time. He may be OK, but he'll never be 2 million ok.

[gm10]

Well, if you remember right, I brought this up long before he raced a second time. He may be OK, but he'll never be 2 million ok.

Why are you failing to register the point that that was not the main reason for purchase.
You are projecting your own way of thinking on theirs, with the benefit of 6 months hindsight.

And I still wonder why you call Godolphin bad from a bettor's point of view.

[cj]

Why are you failing to register the point that that was not the main reason for purchase.
You are projecting your own way of thinking on theirs, with the benefit of 6 months hindsight.

And I still wonder why you call Godolphin bad from a bettor's point of view.

Well, if that was the main reason it was certainly a blatant failure. Even you have to acknowledge that, right?

They are bad for the bettor because one, they take away a lot of good horses and this hurts fields sizes and the competitiveness of races at the higher levels. Two, they drive the cost of doing business up for all other owners because they drive the price up. The higher the cost to owners, the higher the cost to bettors. That is just common sense.

[onefast99]

Well, if that was the main reason it was certainly a blatant failure. Even you have to acknowledge that, right?

They are bad for the bettor because one, they take away a lot of good horses and this hurts fields sizes and the competitiveness of races at the higher levels. Two, they drive the cost of doing business up for all other owners because they drive the price up. The higher the cost to owners, the higher the cost to bettors. That is just common sense.
Westside Bernie and Atomic Rain who were purchased by them lat year to run in Dubai are both showing active works at Belmont.

[gm10]

Well, if that was the main reason it was certainly a blatant failure. Even you have to acknowledge that, right?

I honestly don't understand you. It was an investment, who hasn't paid off yet. That does not equal failure. Failure is a weird term. It's not like he has been retired without ever winning again. OK, he didn't make it to the UAE Derby but give the horse a chance for goodness' sake.

They are bad for the bettor because one, they take away a lot of good horses and this hurts fields sizes and the competitiveness of races at the higher levels.

They do??? Since when do they 'take away' more race horses than your average stakes trainer? I'm not even sure how I should interpret this.

Two, they drive the cost of doing business up for all other owners because they drive the price up. The higher the cost to owners, the higher the cost to bettors. That is just common sense.

If anything, they bring huge sums of money from other industries (oil, construction) into horse racing. If you think that hurts 'the owners' and (by common sense, apparently) 'the bettor' then you need a 101 in basic macro-economics. You could make the point that they are inflating the industry's overall valuation - which could potentially be harmful if they ever pull out of the industry, but that is a very different argument than what you're making.
And at least they aren't afraid their horses in the big events, which is more than what you can say from some other owners/trainers. That certainly doesn't hurt the bettor either.

[cj]

Westside Bernie and Atomic Rain who were purchased by them lat year to run in Dubai are both showing active works at Belmont.

What is the point? How many more have vanished?

gm10,

If they bought the horse for the purpose of running in the UAE Derby and he didn't make it, how is that not a failure? The chances of recouping the 2 mil are slim and none.

I can't argue with you, because you keep changing the argument. If they are as sharp as you say, they wouldn't get stuck with the "drugged out" horses you mention. I mean, on one hand, they are oh so sharp, but on the other, they get fleeced by horse druggers. It can't be both, but I guess once you realized this you shifted the topic. That is your typical MO.

[onefast99]

[QUOTE=cj]What is the point? How many more have vanished?




Relax, just pointing out 2 horses who they privately purchased from Breen and approximately one year later neither has run in a race.

[cj]

What is the point? How many more have vanished?




Relax, just pointing out 2 horses who they privately purchased from Breen and approximately one year later neither has run in a race.

No need for the old "relax" treatment, I'm very relaxed. I just didn't really get the point so I asked.

[JustRalph]

Failure is a " Weird Term".............. :lol: :lol:

[onefast99]

No need for the old "relax" treatment, I'm very relaxed. I just didn't really get the point so I asked.
You mentioned they were bad for the sport, they take horses out of circulation I mentioned two that I know of maybe there are a lot more so name a few to back up your statement.

[cj]

You mentioned they were bad for the sport, they take horses out of circulation I mentioned two that I know of maybe there are a lot more so name a few to back up your statement.

I got it eventually, I'm not always as sharp as I pretend to be.

[bigmack]

No need for the old "relax" treatment, I'm very relaxed.
Nominated for best post of the day. :ThmbUp:

zafLYTatUOU

[gm10]

What is the point? How many more have vanished?

gm10,

If they bought the horse for the purpose of running in the UAE Derby and he didn't make it, how is that not a failure? The chances of recouping the 2 mil are slim and none.

I can't argue with you, because you keep changing the argument. If they are as sharp as you say, they wouldn't get stuck with the "drugged out" horses you mention. I mean, on one hand, they are oh so sharp, but on the other, they get fleeced by horse druggers. It can't be both, but I guess once you realized this you shifted the topic. That is your typical MO.

I'm not changing the argument. It's you who keeps slightly changing your angle of attack.

No, he didn't make it to the UAE Derby but that does not make it a failure. His preparation didn't go well (before and after that turf race) and it was decided to change course with him. It's a race horse, these things happen. You can't call this a failure when he has almost all of his career in front of him.

I didn't say that they get a lot of drugged up horses, but they certainly get some. If you think that you can spot every drugged up horse, then I think you need to come out of your tower once in a while and experience reality.

Note, this isn't the same as admitting that they 'take away' a lot of horses - a claim which seems have to made it onto your long list of unconfirmed facts. Actually, I doubt that they do take away a lot of horses. For example, take a look at Sara Louise. Won a grade 2 at the end of her last campaign and has had problems since. How many stables do you know that would bring her back to the track? Or maybe you will consider this decision as a failure because they didn't cash in on her breeding value, who knows.

Anyway, here we are. For people who are just joining us now, CJ says (and I disagree) that

- Tahitian Warrior is already a failure although he isn't even in the middle of his 3yo campaign and was beaten by one (good) horse only on his comeback.
- Godolphin are bad for the industry although they pump millions in it every year (show me the breeder who doesn't like accepting their money because it hurts his business)
-Godolphin are bad for the bettor although they keep their good horses in training and they ALWAYS try to win each race they enter.
-Godolphin can't spot the drugged-up horses that CJ the wizard obviously would.

[onefast99]

I got it eventually, I'm not always as sharp as I pretend to be.
Can you throw in a few names of horses they actually took away from the sport and never ran again. Thanks.

[the little guy]

Anyway, here we are. For people who are just joining us now, CJ says (and I disagree) that

- Tahitian Warrior is already a failure although he isn't even in the middle of his 3yo campaign and was beaten by one (good) horse only on his comeback.
- Godolphin are bad for the industry although they pump millions in it every year (show me the breeder who doesn't like accepting their money because it hurts his business)
-Godolphin are bad for the bettor although they keep their good horses in training and they ALWAYS try to win each race they enter.
-Godolphin can't spot the drugged-up horses that CJ the wizard obviously would.

Responding to you intelligently is a massive waste of time...partly because you can change course at any given moment, but mostly because as a sycophant you make no effort whtsoever to see even the possibility that there is another side to each of these arguments.

Nobody said, as a racehorse, Tahitian Warrior is a failure. In fact, both CJ and I know he is a talented horse, but none of this is even the question or discussion here. The discussion is whether or not he is worth his $2 million price tag. Given that he is highly unlikely to make $3 million, even with the possibility of running in races where his owner puts up the purse money ( World Cup Day ), he was a poor buy. The failure comment was made because YOU said he was bought to win the UAE Derby...and he didn't even run in it. Further suggesting how clever this was by saying they nominated him to that race right after they bought him, while completely ignoring that they nominate ALL their eligible horses, only made you look more unaware.

Because a breeder is happy to accept their millions is 100% irrelevant. The discussion of Godolphin's money in the industry is a many layered one, and while surely they have some great benefits to this industry, that doesn't make all of their involvement an overall good. You have chosen to ignore the other side of this discussion, despite CJ mentioning it, because you aren't willing to have a discussion, only recite some sort of mantra. One person, essentially, making any industry more expensive for all the other players, has to have some detrimental effects. This does not mean they are not possibly a greater good, but since you won't even entertain any of these possibilities, your one sided approach holds no water.

Your answer about how they affect bettors similarly disregards the entire discussion. At this point it becomes even clearer that you have no interest in discussion. Most owners/trainers try with all their horses. Much like you saying Godolphin does this as well, is in no way relevant to what CJ said, thus in essense you have ignored this point as well.

And, finally, on YOUR contention that they buy " drugged up horses, " it is fair to say that YES, CJ could probably point out a number of horses they have bought where the prior connections might not have been the most prudent to have purchased from, and overall YES he probably could have helped direct them away some horses in a category that YOU created ( as a defense mechanism ). You have the audacity to belittle CJ's understanding of this game...yet I can assure you if there was a poll on this site, CJ would get well over 90% of the vote as to who was more knowledgable between the two of you.

[gm10]

Responding to you intelligently is a massive waste of time...partly because you can change course at any given moment, but mostly because as a sycophant you make no effort whtsoever to see even the possibility that there is another side to each of these arguments.

What a way to get a mature conversation started.


Nobody said, as a racehorse, Tahitian Warrior is a failure. In fact, both CJ and I know he is a talented horse, but none of this is even the question or discussion here. The discussion is whether or not he is worth his $2 million price tag. Given that he is highly unlikely to make $3 million, even with the possibility of running in races where his owner puts up the purse money ( World Cup Day ), he was a poor buy. The failure comment was made because YOU said he was bought to win the UAE Derby...and he didn't even run in it. Further suggesting how clever this was by saying they nominated him to that race right after they bought him, while completely ignoring that they nominate ALL their eligible horses, only made you look more unaware.

I have to ask, where do you get that information from?

For the final time, you cannot judge them on one purchase. They will spend a lot of money on winning certain (for them) key races, and he is part of that budget in a sense.

Because a breeder is happy to accept their millions is 100% irrelevant. The discussion of Godolphin's money in the industry is a many layered one, and while surely they have some great benefits to this industry, that doesn't make all of their involvement an overall good. You have chosen to ignore the other side of this discussion, despite CJ mentioning it, because you aren't willing to have a discussion, only recite some sort of mantra. One person, essentially, making any industry more expensive for all the other players, has to have some detrimental effects. This does not mean they are not possibly a greater good, but since you won't even entertain any of these possibilities, your one sided approach holds no water.

I said myself that there are potential risks with it. If it wasn't clear somehow, all I did what disagree with the arguments that CJ mentioned.

Your answer about how they affect bettors similarly disregards the entire discussion. At this point it becomes even clearer that you have no interest in discussion. Most owners/trainers try with all their horses. Much like you saying Godolphin does this as well, is in no way relevant to what CJ said, thus in essense you have ignored this point as well.

Well there you go, most do, but what if you knew that this one ALWAYS did. How does that not help. Furthermore, you can also know that they aren't getting rid of damaged goods with some of their horses - which is a lot more than what you can say of many of the top American trainers. When their horse goes into the gate, it is because they genuinely believe that it is ready to run a race, not because they are hoping to get rid of a horse that is ready to break down. It is called having some standards.

I yet have to see one argument that indicates that they are bad for betting, let alone proves it. This is the specialty of you two isn't it. Dropping statements and then argue around them instead of backing them up with actual data.

And, finally, on YOUR contention that they buy " drugged up horses, " it is fair to say that YES, CJ could probably point out a number of horses they have bought where the prior connections might not have been the most prudent to have purchased from, and overall YES he probably could have helped direct them away some horses in a category that YOU created ( as a defense mechanism ). You have the audacity to belittle CJ's understanding of this game...yet I can assure you if there was a poll on this site, CJ would get well over 90% of the vote as to who was more knowledgable between the two of you.

:D
A poll? It's like I'm back in the school playground. Listen you are wasting your time with that. I prefer to take a minority view if I can help it, so you are really paying me a compliment.

Say, you seem to know CJ quite well?

[the little guy]

Why bother.....you say nothing. You act like some kind of authority, while posting otherwise, yet you constantly demand proof from people that are far more connected in this game than you. Most of the necessary " proof " is merely common sense. That I can't seem to get for you no matter how hard I try.

[Exotic1]

LTG,

Very impressive writing and presentation in Post #79.

[gm10]

Why bother.....you say nothing. You act like some kind of authority, while posting otherwise, yet you constantly demand proof from people that are far more connected in this game than you. Most of the necessary " proof " is merely common sense. That I can't seem to get for you no matter how hard I try.

Common sense? What common sense? How is 'Godolphin takes a lot of horses away' backed up by common sense? How is 'Godolphin is bad for the bettor' common sense? Sorry I don't see this so please explain.

Also, where do you get if from that all their horses are entered for the UAE Derby?

[Cardus]

Responding to you intelligently is a massive waste of time...partly because you can change course at any given moment, but mostly because as a sycophant you make no effort whtsoever to see even the possibility that there is another side to each of these arguments.

Nobody said, as a racehorse, Tahitian Warrior is a failure. In fact, both CJ and I know he is a talented horse, but none of this is even the question or discussion here. The discussion is whether or not he is worth his $2 million price tag. Given that he is highly unlikely to make $3 million, even with the possibility of running in races where his owner puts up the purse money ( World Cup Day ), he was a poor buy. The failure comment was made because YOU said he was bought to win the UAE Derby...and he didn't even run in it. Further suggesting how clever this was by saying they nominated him to that race right after they bought him, while completely ignoring that they nominate ALL their eligible horses, only made you look more unaware.

Because a breeder is happy to accept their millions is 100% irrelevant. The discussion of Godolphin's money in the industry is a many layered one, and while surely they have some great benefits to this industry, that doesn't make all of their involvement an overall good. You have chosen to ignore the other side of this discussion, despite CJ mentioning it, because you aren't willing to have a discussion, only recite some sort of mantra. One person, essentially, making any industry more expensive for all the other players, has to have some detrimental effects. This does not mean they are not possibly a greater good, but since you won't even entertain any of these possibilities, your one sided approach holds no water.

Your answer about how they affect bettors similarly disregards the entire discussion. At this point it becomes even clearer that you have no interest in discussion. Most owners/trainers try with all their horses. Much like you saying Godolphin does this as well, is in no way relevant to what CJ said, thus in essense you have ignored this point as well.

And, finally, on YOUR contention that they buy " drugged up horses, " it is fair to say that YES, CJ could probably point out a number of horses they have bought where the prior connections might not have been the most prudent to have purchased from, and overall YES he probably could have helped direct them away some horses in a category that YOU created ( as a defense mechanism ). You have the audacity to belittle CJ's understanding of this game...yet I can assure you if there was a poll on this site, CJ would get well over 90% of the vote as to who was more knowledgable between the two of you.

Truly, and sadly, CJ would not get 100% of that vote.

[Spalding No!]

Can you throw in a few names of horses they actually took away from the sport and never ran again. Thanks.

More so than anything, they have derailed countless divisions by snatching up pro tem leaders and up-and-comers that do nothing later on or have massive absences from the track.

Some of the more recent:

Any Given Saturday
Hard Spun
Street Sense
Midshipman
Justenuffhumor
Grand Hombre
Lunar Sovereign
Ruler's Court
Day Pass
Etched
Kingsfort

[onefast99]

More so than anything, they have derailed countless divisions by snatching up pro tem leaders and up-and-comers that do nothing later on or have massive absences from the track.

Some of the more recent:

Any Given Saturday
Hard Spun
Street Sense
Midshipman
Justenuffhumor
Grand Hombre
Lunar Sovereign
Ruler's Court
Day Pass
Etched
Kingsfort
Thanks spalding.

[gm10]

More so than anything, they have derailed countless divisions by snatching up pro tem leaders and up-and-comers that do nothing later on or have massive absences from the track.

Some of the more recent:

Any Given Saturday
Hard Spun
Street Sense
Midshipman
Justenuffhumor
Grand Hombre
Lunar Sovereign
Ruler's Court
Day Pass
Etched
Kingsfort

I agree with the first three, which represented a massive investment in dirt stallions.
Midshipman, OK, was away for a year after injuring himself.
Justenuffhumor been racing regularly I thought.

Grand Hombre - not familiar with his story
Lunar Sovereign was a European horse if I'm not mistaken (ran at Leicester, Newmarket, Nad)
Ruler's Court - Day Pass: a bit exagerated, two juveniles that were part of the annual bunch of hype horses. I believe Day Pass was sent back to McLaughlin and couldn't do much there anymore either.
Etched: don't know what his deal is
Kingsfort: will return later this year. This one really doesn't qualify, the top European horses have only been out for 2 months.

I mainly agree with the 2007 division of 3yo's. That did create a gap - although, remember all three were purchased, if the owners wanted to keep running, they were free to do so.
The others ... not sure but I wouldn't be surprised if you found the same number of horses who disappear when racing for other big outfits.

On the other hand ... look at what they supplied for the Breeders Cup. You can't say that they didn't want to bring their good horses to the track. They weren't good enough, but that's a different topic of course.

[the little guy]

Grand Hombre - not familiar with his story


How convenient.

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

[castaway01]

In the dictionary next to "more money than brains", there's a picture of Godolphin. Sure, they treat the horses well, bravo. Their money has not been well spent.

[KirisClown]

More so than anything, they have derailed countless divisions by snatching up pro tem leaders and up-and-comers that do nothing later on or have massive absences from the track.

Some of the more recent:

Any Given Saturday
Hard Spun
Street Sense
Midshipman
Justenuffhumor
Grand Hombre
Lunar Sovereign
Ruler's Court
Day Pass
Etched
Kingsfort

Just the tip of the ice berg... One of the first I remember was Worldly Manner..

They offered so much money that the Mabees couldn't turn it down..

[the little guy]

Just the tip of the ice berg... One of the first I remember was Worldly Manner..

They offered so much money that the Mabees couldn't turn it down..


I much prefer the " over-hyped " or " I don't remember " classification. It was especially funny for Rulers Court....who they skipped the BC Juvenile with ( where he might have been odds-on ), after his devastating win in the Norfolk, because they thought it might compromise his Derby chances. I'm a little fuzzy....how did that plan work......" I don't remember. "

No worries, I'm sure he couldn't have handled Action that Day. He was " over-hyped. "

[gm10]

Just the tip of the ice berg... One of the first I remember was Worldly Manner..

They offered so much money that the Mabees couldn't turn it down..

didn't they run him in the Kentucky Derby and Preakness?

[gm10]

I much prefer the " over-hyped " or " I don't remember " classification. It was especially funny for Rulers Court....who they skipped the BC Juvenile with ( where he might have been odds-on ), after his devastating win in the Norfolk, because they thought it might compromise his Derby chances. I'm a little fuzzy....how did that plan work......" I don't remember. "

No worries, I'm sure he couldn't have handled Action that Day. He was " over-hyped. "

I think it had to do with the fact that no Juvenile winner had ever won the Derby.

[the little guy]

I think it had to do with the fact that no Juvenile winner had ever won the Derby.


You never disappoint.

[KirisClown]

didn't they run him in the Kentucky Derby and Preakness?

Yes they did.. he was entered in the Derby off an almost 8 month layoff and ran 7th.. In the Preakness, he was beaten almost 40 lths, the only horse he was able to beat got pulled up.

He was the leading juvenile in California in 98...

2EWgimIzdr4

[KirisClown]

I much prefer the " over-hyped " or " I don't remember " classification. It was especially funny for Rulers Court....who they skipped the BC Juvenile with ( where he might have been odds-on ), after his devastating win in the Norfolk, because they thought it might compromise his Derby chances. I'm a little fuzzy....how did that plan work......" I don't remember. "

No worries, I'm sure he couldn't have handled Action that Day. He was " over-hyped. "


That was the same year they had Tizdubai, Tiznow's full sister.. she came up with a minor injury after going 2 for 2 and winning the Sorrento. Instead of keeping her on dirt where she belonged, they sent her to England to run on the grass.. she never won again.

[gm10]

Yes they did.. he was entered in the Derby off an almost 8 month layoff and ran 7th.. In the Preakness, he was beaten almost 40 lths, the only horse he was able to beat got pulled up.

He was the leading juvenile in California in 98...

2EWgimIzdr4


That's the problem with those 2yo's they often don't train on.

[Spalding No!]

Yes they did.. he was entered in the Derby off an almost 8 month layoff and ran 7th.. In the Preakness, he was beaten almost 40 lths, the only horse he was able to beat got pulled up.

He was the leading juvenile in California in 98...


That was a nice horse. Not sure he would stay 10f anyways, but considering his strong bid for the lead in the Derby nearing the stretch, you have to wonder what he would have done in the race if he had a more tradition perparation in the US.

Of course he was toast one race later and ran sparingly in Europe afterwards.

Street Cry is another who probably would have added to his relatively short, but brilliant career without the Dubai detour.

[the little guy]

That was the same year they had Tizdubai, Tiznow's full sister.. she came up with a minor injury after going 2 for 2 and winning the Sorrento. Instead of keeping her on dirt where she belonged, they sent her to England to run on the grass.. she never won again.

She probably ate a lot of grass, however, so it was surprising she didn't run well over it.

How about Devotee? She buried a field of maidens in her debut. They promptly sent her to Keeneland to run on synth....no dice. Took her to Dubai, where after one poor performance, she won the UAE Oaks quite easily ( on dirt ). Instead of sending her back to America, she was sent to England to run in the Guineas. She was 13th of 14th....and then sent to America. Shockingly, after her World Tour, she could no longer get out her own way.

What about Past the Point. He runs two HUGE races at Saratoga, including a terrific second to Curlin, followed by a monsterously tough trip on a fast pace in the Meadowlands Cup. Instead of sending him to Florida, where the Donn was unbelievably weak that year, he was sent to California to run on synth. After tanking there in three starts he could no longer run effectively....so then he started running on the dirt again. I think they call that " striking while the iron is cold. "

[gm10]

That was the same year they had Tizdubai, Tiznow's full sister.. she came up with a minor injury after going 2 for 2 and winning the Sorrento. Instead of keeping her on dirt where she belonged, they sent her to England to run on the grass.. she never won again.

They bought her as a yearling!
Plus she got injured on the dirt.

No disrespect, but this was a promising 2yo who won her maiden and a grade 2 and then got injured. OK, it'd been better if she had kept racing, but you can't really call this an extraordinary loss in the sense that there are horses like this every year.

[gm10]

lol guys you can't have everything.
You can't say 'if it hadn't been for Dubai' and then send your horses there every year and hope to wave the flag.
If you race horses they can get injured, if they race in Dubai, they can get injured. Why not just say that dirt tracks are bad for racing as they cause 3 times more fatalities than the turf?

Whatever trainer they run for, you'll have a lot of horses being retired due to injury. The original point from CJ (who has not answered himself) was that Godolphin is much worse than other stables are. In absolute terms, they probably are, they have more high profile names. But in relative terms, are they really that bad? They win 20% of the many group races they dispute world wide. Surely you have to know how to handle horses to get to that point.

[the little guy]

They bought her as a yearling!
Plus she got injured on the dirt.

No disrespect, but this was a promising 2yo who won her maiden and a grade 2 and then got injured. OK, it'd been better if she had kept racing, but you can't really call this an extraordinary loss in the sense that there are horses like this every year.


Which of course has absolutely zero to do with her running in Europe on the grass after running well on dirt in America.

[the little guy]

lol guys you can't have everything.
You can't say 'if it hadn't been for Dubai' and then send your horses there every year and hope to wave the flag.
If you race horses they can get injured, if they race in Dubai, they can get injured. Why not just say that dirt tracks are bad for racing as they cause 3 times more fatalities than the turf?

Whatever trainer they run for, you'll have a lot of horses being retired due to injury. The original point from CJ (who has not answered himself) was that Godolphin is much worse than other stables are. In absolute terms, they probably are, they have more high profile names. But in relative terms, are they really that bad? They win 20% of the many group races they dispute world wide. Surely you have to know how to handle horses to get to that point.

So now it's " are they really THAT bad " that you are relying on?

Nobody said they were...or should. However, this is a far cry from where you were before being embarrassed with a plentitude of evidence.

This gets back to the original contention that you really don't understand the situation. But, at least you've finally admitted that. It's a start.

[gm10]

Which of course has absolutely zero to do with her running in Europe on the grass after running well on dirt in America.

???
you know absolute ZERO about horses
when they get injured on a surface, a) the chance of another injury increases and b) it affects the horse's confidence on that surface

I don't know the details but I wouldn't be surprised if this played a major factor in their decision

[the little guy]

???
you know absolute ZERO about horses
when they get injured on a surface, a) the chance of another injury increases and b) it affects the horse's confidence on that surface

I don't know the details but I wouldn't be surprised if this played a major factor in their decision

Thank God those idiots Shug McGaughey and the Phipps family knew zero about horses when Personal Ensign broke her leg as a 2YO.

[gm10]

So now it's " are they really THAT bad " that you are relying on?

Nobody said they were...or should. However, this is a far cry from where you were before being embarrassed with a plentitude of evidence.



OK what are you arguing for exactly? I thought it started with CJ's phrase 'they take away a lot of good horses and this hurts fields sizes and the competitiveness of races at the higher levels'.

How is this true if you look at all the horses they have in graded stakes worldwide?

Explain, what are you trying to prove here. Well, letting others come up with facts and then jump on the bandwagon is more precise, I suppose.

Also if you could answer previously asked but unanswered questions.

Who told you that they enter every horse for the UAE?
Explain to me how they are bad for betting. You said common sense?

[Cardus]

didn't they run him in the Kentucky Derby and Preakness?

For someone who vigorously defends a well-known, large international outfit like Godolphin, you do not seem to know as much as I'd think you should know about their horses, particularly -- but not limited to -- Spalding's list.

Maybe you're doing this as a goof.

[gm10]

Thank God those idiots Shug McGaughey and the Phipps family knew zero about horses when Personal Ensign broke her leg as a 2YO.

How does that disprove my earlier a) b) statements???? Did I say that they will never run a race on the dirt again?

[gm10]

For someone who vigorously defends a well-known, large international outfit like Godolphin, you do not seem to know as much as I'd think you should know about their horses, particularly -- but not limited to -- Spalding's list.

Maybe you're doing this as a goof.

I think I know more than you give me credit for.
We shouldn't lose track of the original starting point of the debate. I never claimed that they don't make bad decisions, or never have injured horses. I just don't agree that they are worse than any other large stable.

[Cardus]

or them losing over 20 million dollars a year in Australia, or how they keep taking talented horses from their trainers, to give them to their head guy where he proceeds to make them run up, around, down, back the track. See Cocolaro yesterday.

Or how they had the chance to buy either Sara Louise or Rachel and chose Sara Louise.

Or how of the three breeders cup they have won since 2001, 2 of them, were trained outside of their normal operations. one was trained by bob baffert becuase they had just bought him (midshipman) and had no time to transfer him and the other (ravens pass) was trained by John Gosden.

Good point. And that followed its $400 million "start-up" cost.

[KirisClown]

They bought her as a yearling!
Plus she got injured on the dirt.

No disrespect, but this was a promising 2yo who won her maiden and a grade 2 and then got injured. OK, it'd been better if she had kept racing, but you can't really call this an extraordinary loss in the sense that there are horses like this every year.

I wasn't making a point, just stating she was around the same year as Ruler's Court..

Off the top of my head how about Chief Seattle(4 Mill), Adair(5 mill), Noraquilon, Comonmom(3 Mill). All private purchases after they started their racing careers with a lot of promise.. all refused to train on, like Worldly Manner?

[Dahoss9698]

I think I know more than you give me credit for.


No you don't. For someone who thinks so highly of themselves, it's astonishing how little you actually know.

[gm10]

I wasn't making a point, just stating she was around the same year as Ruler's Court..

Off the top of my head how about Chief Seattle(4 Mill), Adair(5 mill), Noraquilon, Comonmom(3 Mill). All private purchases after they started their racing careers with a lot of promise.. all refused to train on, like Worldly Manner?

I don't know - this is from before my time.

[the little guy]

I don't know - this is from before my time.


Yet you insist on arguing with people who have more than 30 years of history in the game.

[JustRalph]

I am starting to see a trend line develop here...........

[gm10]

I am starting to see a trend line develop here...........

Yes me too. I give up with that timewaster.

And I give up with this discussion. If people want to believe that they are bad for racing and betting, up to them, I tried my best to explain why I don't agree.

[cj]

How is this true if you look at all the horses they have in graded stakes worldwide?



I'm taking a day mostly off, but I'll answer this softball. What do I give a crap about worldwide? I said in the US.

[gm10]

I'm taking a day mostly off, but I'll answer this softball. What do I give a crap about worldwide? I said in the US.

I was hoping somebody would take the bait, but it's glad that it's you. You have basically shown once more that you are full of it.

Their strike rate in the American graded stakes (39 of them) that they disputed was a lot higher than 20% - it was 38% in 2009. If you look all their starterts in those graded stakes, their strike rate is 27% and the average ROI is +46.25%. Boy, that's gotta hurt bettors, right?

Please keep spreading your misgivings about Godolphin, I'm sure me and the other bettors here who are open to facts will find something to spend the money on.



RACE_DATE COURSE_CODE RACE_NUMBER GRADE FINISH123 PROFIT
05/02/2009 BEL 9 3 1) COSMONAUT (81) 2) TAM LIN (GB) (79) 3) OPERATION RED DAWN (75) -1
05/02/2009 CD 11 1 1) MINE THAT BIRD (88) 2) PIONEEROF THE NILE (80) 3) MUSKET MAN (80) -1
05/02/2009 CD 11 1 1) MINE THAT BIRD (88) 2) PIONEEROF THE NILE (80) 3) MUSKET MAN (80) -1
06/06/2009 BEL 6 2 1) FABULOUS STRIKE (94) 2) BENNY THE BULL (92) 3) SILVER EDITION (83) -1
13/06/2009 BEL 4 1 1) SEATTLE SMOOTH (87) 2) SEVENTH STREET (81) 3) SEA CHANTER (74) -1
13/06/2009 BEL 4 1 1) SEATTLE SMOOTH (87) 2) SEVENTH STREET (81) 3) SEA CHANTER (74) -1
14/06/2009 BEL 8 3 1) SAILOR'S CAP (86) 2) TAM LIN (GB) (84) 3) YIELD BOGEY (76) -1
27/06/2009 BEL 9 1 1) RACHEL ALEXANDRA (98) 2) MALIBU PRAYER (77) 3) FLASHING (47) -1
07/04/2009 MTH 9 3 1) COAL PLAY (90) 2) SMOOTH AIR (88) 3) SOLAR FLARE (ARG) (85) -1
25/07/2009 BEL 9 1 1) FUNNY MOON (68) 2) DON'T FORGET GIL (67) 3) WYNNING RIDE (65) -1
08/02/2009 MTH 13 1 1) RACHEL ALEXANDRA (98) 2) SUMMER BIRD (93) 3) MUNNINGS (91) -1
08/02/2009 SAR 9 1 1) SEVENTH STREET (86) 2) MISS ISELLA (84) 3) SPRITELY (82) 1.5
08/08/2009 SAR 9 1 1) FLASHING (85) 2) PRETTY PROLIFIC (83) 3) CAT MOVES (84) 4.6
28/08/2009 SAR 9 2 1) JUSTENUFFHUMOR (91) 2) COWBOY CAL (91) 3) SETTE E MEZZO (84) -1
29/08/2009 SAR 7 3 1) SARA LOUISE (93) 2) BOLD UNION (90) 3) JULIET'S SPIRIT (90) 2.2
29/08/2009 SAR 9 2 1) SALVE GERMANIA (IRE) (88) 2) RUTHERIENNE (89) 3) MY PRINCESS JESS (88) -1
29/08/2009 SAR 10 1 1) MUSIC NOTE (89) 2) INDIAN BLESSING (80) 3) INFORMED DECISION (79) 5.8
29/08/2009 SAR 11 1 1) CAPT. CANDYMAN CAN (95) 2) VINEYARD HAVEN (95) 3) MUNNINGS (90) -1
09/05/2009 SAR 9 1 1) PYRO (89) 2) KODIAK KOWBOY (88) 3) READY'S ECHO (88) 4.1
09/12/2009 BEL 4 1 1) SWIFT TEMPER (94) 2) SEVENTH STREET (93) 3) LUNA VEGA (77) -1
09/12/2009 PID 7 3 1) INFORMED DECISION (85) 2) SWEET LORENA (81) 3) FLASHING (82) -1
19/09/2009 LAD 11 2 1) REGAL RANSOM (91) 2) BLAME (90) 3) MASSONE (86) 1.3
26/09/2009 BEL 9 2 1) INDIAN BLESSING (90) 2) SARA LOUISE (87) 3) SKY HAVEN (76) -1
10/03/2009 BEL 6 1 1) MUSIC NOTE (87) 2) UNBRIDLED BELLE (84) 3) COPPER STATE (67) 0.3
10/10/2009 KEE 9 1 1) COURT VISION (87) 2) KARELIAN (87) 3) MR. SIDNEY (63) -1
10/10/2009 OSA 8 1 1) ZENYATTA (84) 2) LETHAL HEAT (81) 3) COCOA BEACH (CHI) (81) -1
10/11/2009 BEL 4 2 1) GIROLAMO (93) 2) BURLEY'S GOLD (92) 3) KENSEI (90) 0.8
10/11/2009 OSA 8 1 1) GAYEGO (92) 2) CROWN OF THORNS (90) 3) DELTA STORM (89) 1.2
24/10/2009 KEE 9 2 1) SATANS QUICK CHICK (83) 2) SLIDES CHOICE (82) 3) DON'TTALKTOME (79) -1
24/10/2009 LRL 9 1 1) VINEYARD HAVEN (96) 2) RAVALO (95) 3) FLEET VALID (95) 0.8
11/06/2009 OSA 7 1 1) INFORMED DECISION (92) 2) VENTURA (90) 3) FREE FLYING SOUL (82) -1
11/06/2009 OSA 7 1 1) INFORMED DECISION (92) 2) VENTURA (90) 3) FREE FLYING SOUL (82) -1
11/06/2009 OSA 8 1 1) LIFE IS SWEET (90) 2) MUSHKA (85) 3) MUSIC NOTE (84) -1
11/06/2009 OSA 8 1 1) LIFE IS SWEET (90) 2) MUSHKA (85) 3) MUSIC NOTE (84) -1
11/07/2009 OSA 2 2 1) POUNCED (85) 2) BRIDGETOWN (79) 3) INTERACTIF (79) -1
11/07/2009 OSA 4 1 1) DANCING IN SILKS (93) 2) CROWN OF THORNS (93) 3) COST OF FREEDOM (93) -1
11/07/2009 OSA 5 1 1) VALE OF YORK (IRE) (79) 2) LOOKIN AT LUCKY (78) 3) NOBLE'S PROMISE (77) 30.6
11/07/2009 OSA 6 1 1) GOLDIKOVA (IRE) (89) 2) COURAGEOUS CAT (89) 3) JUSTENUFFHUMOR (87) -1
11/07/2009 OSA 6 1 1) GOLDIKOVA (IRE) (89) 2) COURAGEOUS CAT (89) 3) JUSTENUFFHUMOR (87) -1
11/07/2009 OSA 6 1 1) GOLDIKOVA (IRE) (89) 2) COURAGEOUS CAT (89) 3) JUSTENUFFHUMOR (87) -1
11/07/2009 OSA 7 1 1) FURTHEST LAND (89) 2) READY'S ECHO (88) 3) MIDSHIPMAN (88) -1
11/07/2009 OSA 7 1 1) FURTHEST LAND (89) 2) READY'S ECHO (88) 3) MIDSHIPMAN (88) -1
11/07/2009 OSA 9 1 1) ZENYATTA (87) 2) GIO PONTI (87) 3) TWICE OVER (GB) (85) -1
11/07/2009 OSA 9 1 1) ZENYATTA (87) 2) GIO PONTI (87) 3) TWICE OVER (GB) (85) -1
27/11/2009 AQU 9 2 1) SARA LOUISE (91) 2) JUSTWHISTLEDIXIE (91) 3) CUVEE UNCORKED (81) 0.7
28/11/2009 AQU 8 1 1) FLASHING (89) 2) UNRIVALED BELLE (85) 3) BON JOVI GIRL (80) 3.3
28/11/2009 AQU 9 1 1) KODIAK KOWBOY (94) 2) BRIBON (FR) (93) 3) VINEYARD HAVEN (93) -1
28/11/2009 AQU 9 1 1) KODIAK KOWBOY (94) 2) BRIBON (FR) (93) 3) VINEYARD HAVEN (93) -1

[JustRalph]

Yes me too. I give up with that timewaster.

And I give up with this discussion. If people want to believe that they are bad for racing and betting, up to them, I tried my best to explain why I don't agree.

Well the trend line I was referring to was your insipid theme

but say what you will......... I think you proved who you are.

[ceejay]

Their strike rate in the American graded stakes (39 of them) that they disputed was a lot higher than 20% - it was 38% in 2009. If you look all their starterts in those graded stakes, their strike rate is 27% and the average ROI is +46.25%. Boy, that's gotta hurt bettors, right?

I am not certain if I am correct in my interpretation of your data insertion(format-wise). But, it looks to me like the + 46% ROI is driven by 1 longshot winner at over 30-1. Without that the ROI looks to be about -34%.

However, I doubt that I would take much from a limited sample like this. Although I have not done statistical tests on the data you present, I think that the chance of this data set being a random sample of an otherwise "normal" population is high.

[the little guy]

I am not certain if I am correct in my interpretation of your data insertion(format-wise). But, it looks to me like the + 46% ROI is driven by 1 longshot winner at over 30-1. Without that the ROI looks to be about -34%.

However, I doubt that I would take much from a limited sample like this. Although I have not done statistical tests on the data you present, I think that the chance of this data set being a random sample of an otherwise "normal" population is high.

Or, you could conclude what everyone but sycophant10 understands....that sample just shows how poorly they have done given the dollars they have spent. It's all relative.

[KirisClown]

that sample just shows how poorly they have done given the dollars they have spent.

Not so fast.. a lot of people would spend 12 million for a horse to win the DeFrancis Dash..

[the little guy]

Not so fast.. a lot of people would spend 12 million for a horse to win the DeFrancis Dash..


I stand corrected.

[cj]

I was hoping somebody would take the bait, but it's glad that it's you. You have basically shown once more that you are full of it.

Their strike rate in the American graded stakes (39 of them) that they disputed was a lot higher than 20% - it was 38% in 2009. If you look all their starterts in those graded stakes, their strike rate is 27% and the average ROI is +46.25%. Boy, that's gotta hurt bettors, right?

Please keep spreading your misgivings about Godolphin, I'm sure me and the other bettors here who are open to facts will find something to spend the money on.


This has absolutely nothing to do with what I was talking about. You are like a punch drunk fighter just staggering all over the place. You are the Tex Cobb of internet posters, and for that you get credit.

[gm10]

This has absolutely nothing to do with what I was talking about. You are like a punch drunk fighter just staggering all over the place. You are the Tex Cobb of internet posters, and for that you get credit.

???
It doesn't?
Show me another stable who has starters in 39 graded stakes? Surely not many.

I don't understand how you can say that they are decreasing the field size by taking a lot of horses away. Have you seen who is in there?

Let me also point out that your reply contains one negation and two insults but ZERO arguments. That puts you on par with the level of TLG, I believe. Well done.

[the little guy]

That puts you on par with the level of TLG, I believe. Well done.


I dream of being on par with CJ....thank you for elevating me even higher.

[gm10]

I am not certain if I am correct in my interpretation of your data insertion(format-wise). But, it looks to me like the + 46% ROI is driven by 1 longshot winner at over 30-1. Without that the ROI looks to be about -34%.

However, I doubt that I would take much from a limited sample like this. Although I have not done statistical tests on the data you present, I think that the chance of this data set being a random sample of an otherwise "normal" population is high.

Well the horse won, so you have to include it. Even if you cap the odds at 10/1, you'll get a profit. And it's not like I'm including Vineyard's Haven who really won but got DQ'd against a horse who was never going to win - it was around the same time that a horse got DQ'd after the race because some vet at PID had given a negative report on one of their horses after the race or something similar like that (in any case it was embarrassing for the people who asked for the DQ).

Anyway if you look at 2008-2009, the stats are

win rate: 26%
ROI: +16%

So, to answer to the sucker who took the bait 'who cares about the world, it's the us that counts' ... fine by me, it looks better if you look at the US alone.

The answer to the same genius that says that they are bad for bettors (or betting? not clear) ... well, if anything they increase field sizes (they run their horses in the big races, they give breeders and selling owners a lot more money), and they even return a profit if you blindly back them.

I understand that they are not perceived as friends of racing by some (for whatever reason), but if you want to attack them, please stay honest, we are not lawyers in a courtroom.

[gm10]

'Let me also point out that your reply contains one negation and two insults but ZERO arguments. That puts you on par with the level of TLG, I believe. Well done.'

Answer from TLG:

'I dream of being on par with CJ....thank you for elevating me even higher'

Sorry, but this beggars belief. Apparently, insulting without providing arguments has now become something to strive for.

[Spalding No!]

gm10,

Instead of posting the numbers isolating Godolphin's impressive summer/fall of success last year, why don't we get a more realistic look at their numbers by including the previous decade of runners they started in NA?

[gm10]

gm10,

Instead of posting the numbers isolating Godolphin's impressive summer/fall of success last year, why don't we get a more realistic look at their numbers by including the previous decade of runners they started in NA?

I would if I could. I don't have data that far back. You want to talk to them or DRF or Brisnet or any equivalent if you want independent and reliable numbers.

Edit:

Just ran the query on what I consider to be reliable enough data (2005-now):

strike rate: 24%
ROI: +1%

[the little guy]

If gm10 was a horse, his running line would read " broke slowly, dropped to the back of the field despite the best efforts of his rider who continued to whip and drive despite falling farther and farther behind the field. Ultimately lost to an eased horse despite the best efforts of his jockey."

[gm10]

If gm10 was a horse, his running line would read " broke slowly, dropped to the back of the field despite the best efforts of his rider who continued to whip and drive despite falling farther and farther behind the field. Ultimately lost to an eased horse despite the best efforts of his jockey."

if you were a horse, you'd double your IQ

[Cardus]

If gm10 was a horse, his running line would read " broke slowly, dropped to the back of the field despite the best efforts of his rider who continued to whip and drive despite falling farther and farther behind the field. Ultimately lost to an eased horse despite the best efforts of his jockey."

No, it would read, "Stumbled start, outrun."

[cj]

The arguments gm10 makes are so bad I don't even know how to respond. Of course they run a lot of horses, they have a TON of horses. You have no response to all the vanished horses but expect us to address your silly little table? Get real...

[bigmack]

I'm on the edge of my seat. Can anyone tell me what sycophant means?

[Cardus]

I'm on the edge of my seat. Can anyone tell me what sycophant means?

I prefer the Internet Land version of sychophant: psychophant.

Trust me, it fits.

[johnhannibalsmith]

...Can anyone tell me what sycophant means?

http://crazy-jokes.com/pictures/elephant.jpg

[gm10]

The arguments gm10 makes are so bad I don't even know how to respond. Of course they run a lot of horses, they have a TON of horses. You have no response to all the vanished horses but expect us to address your silly little table? Get real...

You are even weaker that I expected.
Always ready to make strong statements, but letting others come up with (at best) anecdotal evidence, not clarifying when asked to do so, and finally turning to insult when you are proven wrong. Pathetic.

[Fager Fan]

I didn't say that they get a lot of drugged up horses, but they certainly get some. If you think that you can spot every drugged up horse, then I think you need to come out of your tower once in a while and experience reality.

Yeah? Name one "drugged up" horse they bought.

[Fager Fan]

???
you know absolute ZERO about horses
when they get injured on a surface, a) the chance of another injury increases and b) it affects the horse's confidence on that surface

I don't know the details but I wouldn't be surprised if this played a major factor in their decision

What? Neither of those statements is true.

[Fager Fan]

???
It doesn't?
Show me another stable who has starters in 39 graded stakes? Surely not many.

They have hundreds of horses in training. You'd hope they could make 39 graded stakes with all the horses they buy and the money they sink into them. Owners with far fewer horses who spend far less money routinely have better racetrack results.

[gm10]

They have hundreds of horses in training. You'd hope they could make 39 graded stakes with all the horses they buy and the money they sink into them. Owners with far fewer horses who spend far less money routinely have better racetrack results.

Yes I was waiting for that one. It's basically admitting that the original angle didn't work, and now it is being rephrased as Godolphin are less efficient.

I'd like to see stats on that. How many graded stakes did the Pletcher/Baffert/Mott/Dutrow dispute with what success rate and what stable size. I think I know who does best of all but I'd still like to see someone come up with actual evidence instead of insults or anecdotes.

[ceejay]

but if you want to attack them, please stay honest, we are not lawyers in a courtroom.
I was not attacking anybody. I honestly do not care about Godolphin. I am talking about interpretation of data.

Professionally, every day I choose which data is more important and more relevant than other data. Honestly,that is what interests me. For example, If I am working on an oil field with 39 wells, 38 of which have data consistent with each other and one of which looks wildly better I will give that one close scrutiny before using the data on the outlier. Might the data be correct and I really need to figure out why so it may be duplicated? Perhaps yes. But that requires assessment and interpretation.

[gm10]

I was not attacking anybody. I honestly do not care about Godolphin. I am talking about interpretation of data.

Professionally, every day I choose which data is more important and more relevant than other data. Honestly,that is what interests me. For example, If I am working on an oil field with 39 wells, 38 of which have data consistent with each other and one of which looks wildly better I will give that one close scrutiny before using the data on the outlier. Might the data be correct and I really need to figure out why so it may be duplicated? Perhaps yes. But that requires assessment and interpretation.

Yes apologies it's hard to spot the few genuine posters left in this thread.
Longshots are a problem, whatever you're analyzing. I usually cap around 10-15, or two times the average odds which is probably the best option. I cannot remember now but I think that the total P&L was around $23 for $1 stakes - so capping at $10 dollars (which certainly seems more than fair with Vale Of York imo) still returns a profit.

[Fager Fan]

Yes I was waiting for that one. It's basically admitting that the original angle didn't work, and now it is being rephrased as Godolphin are less efficient.

I'd like to see stats on that. How many graded stakes did the Pletcher/Baffert/Mott/Dutrow dispute with what success rate and what stable size. I think I know who does best of all but I'd still like to see someone come up with actual evidence instead of insults or anecdotes.

I have no idea what a Pletcher/Baffert/Mott/Dutrow dispute is, or why you're listing trainers instead of owners if trying to compare the owner Godolphin/Darley with other owners.

Want numbers? How about the fact they spent $100 million on yearlings who turned 3 in 2008, and they didn't have among them a single decent colt. Not a Derby starter, not a G1 winner. They had a couple good fillies in that crop, but as I recollect, they weren't even among those which were bought in that $100 million, but instead were a couple that they bred.

Spending $100 million for the best-conformed and best-bred horses in the world yet not having a single top colt in the bunch can only be deemed a failure at the highest level.

[PaceAdvantage]

http://crazy-jokes.com/pictures/elephant.jpgThat was priceless.... :lol:

[tucker6]

http://crazy-jokes.com/pictures/elephant.jpg

I hope she was holding her breath, or inserted a mint into the elephant's mouth first. I guess my day job ain't so bad after all!! :D

[tucker6]

Yeah? Name one "drugged up" horse they bought.
Did GM10 answer you on this via PM, because I missed his reply here. Maybe that CJ guy deleted it so I couldn't read it. :rolleyes:

[cj]

Did GM10 answer you on this via PM, because I missed his reply here. Maybe that CJ guy deleted it so I couldn't read it. :rolleyes:

Of course not, he just changes the subject or stops posting in the thread when he doesn't like the questions. He does, however, expect answers to all his inane questions.

[tucker6]

Of course not, he just changes the subject or stops posting in the thread when he doesn't like the questions. He does, however, expect answers to all his inane questions.
I hope you know that I never suspected as much from you, but you were a convenient foil for GM's antics. A person is known as much for what they don't say as for what they do say. That's him in a nutshell. You and Pace get pummeled every day on here, but as boards go, you guys do a bang up job. Especially since this is the most chaotic board I belong to, and I belong to a diverse group.

[gm10]

I hope you know that I never suspected as much from you, but you were a convenient foil for GM's antics. A person is known as much for what they don't say as for what they do say. That's him in a nutshell. You and Pace get pummeled every day on here, but as boards go, you guys do a bang up job. Especially since this is the most chaotic board I belong to, and I belong to a diverse group.

LOL
So if they don't say anything when asked to provide evidence, this is actually a good thing?
Wow, learning a little every day.


CJ, listen fella, I am still on the same subject that you are refusing to clarify or back up.

How do you explain that they are bad for bettors.
What is your evidence that they 'take away' a lot of horses.

I am not even remotely interested in changing the subject; as far as I can see there is no proof and you should have known that. If you actually looked at evidence before posting all them things that you think are true, we wouldn't have wasted all this time here.

You can keep insulting me or telling me that I'm changing the subject.That's fine, I'm not going away on this one. You made the statements. Be a man and do your own explaining.

[speed]

LOL


You can keep insulting me or telling me that I'm changing the subject.That's fine, I'm not going away on this one. You made the statements. Be a man and do your own explaining.


(LUCY) CJ you have some splaining to do

[gm10]

I have no idea what a Pletcher/Baffert/Mott/Dutrow dispute is, or why you're listing trainers instead of owners if trying to compare the owner Godolphin/Darley with other owners.

Want numbers? How about the fact they spent $100 million on yearlings who turned 3 in 2008, and they didn't have among them a single decent colt. Not a Derby starter, not a G1 winner. They had a couple good fillies in that crop, but as I recollect, they weren't even among those which were bought in that $100 million, but instead were a couple that they bred.

Spending $100 million for the best-conformed and best-bred horses in the world yet not having a single top colt in the bunch can only be deemed a failure at the highest level.

That is certainly true. Can you tell me where I can find this information?

[gm10]

The arguments gm10 makes are so bad I don't even know how to respond. Of course they run a lot of horses, they have a TON of horses. You have no response to all the vanished horses but expect us to address your silly little table? Get real...


You don't know how to respond period. It's sour signature post. You always do that: you give zero evidence and insult people who dared to question your words of wisdom.

[FenceBored]

That is certainly true. Can you tell me where I can find this information?

You can pull it together from various sources, but a good one for North America is the American Racing Manual. The 2009 edition has a section titled "Status of Top Priced North American Yearlings of 2006 (3-Year-Olds of 2008)." The table lists the top 30 most expensive yearlings of 2006 (from $11.7m down to $1.05m). My quick look shows John Ferguson was the signer for 11 of those totaling $48,950,000. These eleven, through the end of 2008 had earnings of $116,547, or 0.24% of the purchase price. :eek:

[the little guy]

You can pull it together from various sources, but a good one for North America is the American Racing Manual. The 2009 edition has a section titled "Status of Top Priced North American Yearlings of 2006 (3-Year-Olds of 2008)." The table lists the top 30 most expensive yearlings of 2006 (from $11.7m down to $1.05m). My quick look shows John Ferguson was the signer for 11 of those totaling $48,950,000. These eleven, through the end of 2008 had earnings of $116,547, or 0.24% of the purchase price. :eek:


116,547 down......48,833,453 to go.

[Headbanger]

Godolphin does a terrible job with purchases both in Europe and in the US as well. Let's take a look at some of their purchases:

Cherry Mix: Finished 2nd in the Arc when under Michael Stoute's watchful eye. Did NOTHING when purchased by Godolphin and regressed mightily.
Diabolical: Bought in September of 07 by Godolphin. Since Godolphin purchased him, he won a grand total of 1 race for them. Here was a horse who was in great form when they purchased him, and could have easily been the 2007 BC Sprint Favorite and winner, and been Champion Sprinter, but instead they buy him and put him away for the rest of the year and the Golden Shaheen which he doesn't win.
Atomic Rain: Horse was bought, ran miserably in the Haskell, gets laid up until February, runs 12th out of 13th in his return at Meydan.
Westside Bernie: Runs 9th in the Derby then is laid off after Godolphin buys him until February, then does nothing in his comeback at Meydan.
Literato: Or how about Godolphin's buy of Literato for 4.5 million Euro, as he never even won a race for them, after a sparkling three year old year. He doesn't even stand at stud for them.

gm10, just a little bit of advice for you that if you actually took it might learn something from it, but when dealing with cj and the little guy, you are out of your league, especially on this issue.

[onefast99]

Godolphin does a terrible job with purchases both in Europe and in the US as well. Let's take a look at some of their purchases:

Cherry Mix: Finished 2nd in the Arc when under Michael Stoute's watchful eye. Did NOTHING when purchased by Godolphin and regressed mightily.
Diabolical: Bought in September of 07 by Godolphin. Since Godolphin purchased him, he won a grand total of 1 race for them. Here was a horse who was in great form when they purchased him, and could have easily been the 2007 BC Sprint Favorite and winner, and been Champion Sprinter, but instead they buy him and put him away for the rest of the year and the Golden Shaheen which he doesn't win.
Atomic Rain: Horse was bought, ran miserably in the Haskell, gets laid up until February, runs 12th out of 13th in his return at Meydan.
Westside Bernie: Runs 9th in the Derby then is laid off after Godolphin buys him until February, then does nothing in his comeback at Meydan.
Literato: Or how about Godolphin's buy of Literato for 4.5 million Euro, as he never even won a race for them, after a sparkling three year old year. He doesn't even stand at stud for them.

gm10, just a little bit of advice for you that if you actually took it might learn something from it, but when dealing with cj and the little guy, you are out of your league, especially on this issue.
Westside Bernie and Atomic Rain are both working steadily at Belmont for their next engagements.

[cj]

LOL
So if they don't say anything when asked to provide evidence, this is actually a good thing?
Wow, learning a little every day.


CJ, listen fella, I am still on the same subject that you are refusing to clarify or back up.

How do you explain that they are bad for bettors.
What is your evidence that they 'take away' a lot of horses.

I am not even remotely interested in changing the subject; as far as I can see there is no proof and you should have known that. If you actually looked at evidence before posting all them things that you think are true, we wouldn't have wasted all this time here.

You can keep insulting me or telling me that I'm changing the subject.That's fine, I'm not going away on this one. You made the statements. Be a man and do your own explaining.

They are bad for bettors because they remove lots of horses from the country and many never return. They aren't removing claiming horses, though many turn out to be that after a few months in Dubai. You want a list, try Google. I don't have time. I don't need to do research and provide lists for a game I have followed pretty much every day since the early 80s.

One thing is certain. I started this thread to bait you. Have you removed the hook from your cheek yet?

[Headbanger]

Westside Bernie and Atomic Rain are both working steadily at Belmont for their next engagements.

That's not the point, the point is that as of today, they have been collosal busts considering they have yet to win a race for Godolphin, and have been off for an extensive amount of time. Considering I highly doubt that the purchase price was cheap, it's going to be very difficult to recoup their expenditures on these horses.

[JustRalph]

Let me ask this, or maybe just declare. Isn't what is bad for breeders and buyers also bad for bettors? If they are driving prices sky high doesn't that mean there are less and less people able to be involved in the owning breeding part of the game ?

Less participation means less horses, shorter fields and in the long run people will find a place to put their money. So they are siphoning off money from the sport. It all trickles down eventually to the tracks and eventually the players. The next time you see a 5-6 horse field maybe you should wonder if there might have been another 2 horses available if the Sultan of Breeding hadn't driven the prices up off the scale for the last ten years

[gm10]

Godolphin does a terrible job with purchases both in Europe and in the US as well. Let's take a look at some of their purchases:

Cherry Mix: Finished 2nd in the Arc when under Michael Stoute's watchful eye. Did NOTHING when purchased by Godolphin and regressed mightily.
Diabolical: Bought in September of 07 by Godolphin. Since Godolphin purchased him, he won a grand total of 1 race for them. Here was a horse who was in great form when they purchased him, and could have easily been the 2007 BC Sprint Favorite and winner, and been Champion Sprinter, but instead they buy him and put him away for the rest of the year and the Golden Shaheen which he doesn't win.
Atomic Rain: Horse was bought, ran miserably in the Haskell, gets laid up until February, runs 12th out of 13th in his return at Meydan.
Westside Bernie: Runs 9th in the Derby then is laid off after Godolphin buys him until February, then does nothing in his comeback at Meydan.
Literato: Or how about Godolphin's buy of Literato for 4.5 million Euro, as he never even won a race for them, after a sparkling three year old year. He doesn't even stand at stud for them.

gm10, just a little bit of advice for you that if you actually took it might learn something from it, but when dealing with cj and the little guy, you are out of your league, especially on this issue.

Diabolical, Cherry Mix you and Literato, you can call disappointing all you like, but, they are certainly the opposite point of the one that some here are making. They were KEPT IN TRAINING by Godolphin, they were not taken out of racing. Literato for example was going to stud before they snapped him up.

[gm10]

That's not the point, the point is that as of today, they have been collosal busts considering they have yet to win a race for Godolphin, and have been off for an extensive amount of time. Considering I highly doubt that the purchase price was cheap, it's going to be very difficult to recoup their expenditures on these horses.

that is certainly not the point
this discussion was started by CJ who said they are bad for the bettor because they take so many horses away
he still has to come up with evidence - don't hold your breath

[gm10]

They are bad for bettors because they remove lots of horses from the country and many never return. They aren't removing claiming horses, though many turn out to be that after a few months in Dubai. You want a list, try Google. I don't have time. I don't need to do research and provide lists for a game I have followed pretty much every day since the early 80s.

One thing is certain. I started this thread to bait you. Have you removed the hook from your cheek yet?

If that is true, then you are truly, truly sad.

[PaceAdvantage]

You always do that: you give zero evidence and insult people who dared to question your words of wisdom.More hyperbole from you I see. What's next? Gonna post that you were told by someone that cj's numbers are nothing more than "rehashed Beyer figs?"

I'd love to get into that debate...maybe for another thread.

[Dahoss9698]

What's next? Gonna post that you were told by someone that cj's numbers are nothing more than "rehashed Beyer figs?"



You mean they aren't?

edit: I shouldn't have to say this, but PA and CJ I'm sure know I'm kidding.

[cj]

More hyperbole from you I see. What's next? Gonna post that you were told by someone that cj's numbers are nothing more than "rehashed Beyer figs?"

I'd love to get into that debate...maybe for another thread.

Those that used the Race of the Week on my site this week know better.

For gm10, why would I post a list of horses when others have already done so? You say Diabolical remained in training, how did that help bettors in the United States? He ran in desert races trying to get purse money put up by his owners.

[cj]

If that is true, then you are truly, truly sad.

Why? Isn't that the same tactic you said yourself you used in this thread at least twice?

[PaceAdvantage]

Why? Isn't that the same tactic you said yourself you used in this thread at least twice?Yup...

[gm10]

Yup...

There is a very obvious difference. I left bait because it's good tactic when you are having a discussion - it's just tactics basically. He's just starting threads as bait, to annoy someone he's never even met but who publicly disagrees with him. How deeply sad do you have to be to do a thing like that. Does he honestly not have anything better to do?

[gm10]

Those that used the Race of the Week on my site this week know better.

For gm10, why would I post a list of horses when others have already done so? You say Diabolical remained in training, how did that help bettors in the United States? He ran in desert races trying to get purse money put up by his owners.

Yet again you are piggybacking off other people's contributions. However, have I not made it clear yet what I think of anecdotal evidence? It is the weapon a someone who does not have the tools or intelligence to put forward a point that is based on analysis.

Put forward your hypothesis and tell me how you have tested it. Then tell us the results. Do not post idiotic claims without supplying a shred of your own evidence. It is dishonest. It is lazy. It is a complete waste of my time.

[gm10]

More hyperbole from you I see. What's next? Gonna post that you were told by someone that cj's numbers are nothing more than "rehashed Beyer figs?"

I'd love to get into that debate...maybe for another thread.

i have deleted my own message

[the little guy]

Yet again you are piggybacking off other people's contributions. However, have I not made it clear yet what I think of anecdotal evidence? It is the weapon a someone who does not have the tools or intelligence to put forward a point that is based on analysis.

Put forward your hypothesis and tell me how you have tested it. Then tell us the results. Do not post idiotic claims without supplying a shred of your own evidence. It is dishonest. It is lazy. It is a complete waste of my time.


I'm guessing you got beaten up a lot in school.

[gm10]

More hyperbole from you I see. What's next? Gonna post that you were told by someone that cj's numbers are nothing more than "rehashed Beyer figs?"

I'd love to get into that debate...maybe for another thread.

You are shameless.

I will make this very clear to everybody: the admin of this message board is literally quoting me from a private conversation.

This is beyond belief. I cannot express my disgust enough. You, Pace Advantage, have accomplished the impossible. I respect you even less than CJ, TLG and DaHoss now.

[gm10]

I'm guessing you got beaten up a lot in school.

Once.

[the little guy]

You are shameless.

I will make this very clear to everybody: the admin of this message board is literally quoting me from a private conversation.

This is beyond belief. I cannot express my disgust enough. You, Pace Advantage, have accomplished the impossible. I respect you even less than CJ, TLG and DaHoss now.


Don't let the door hit you on the ass on the way out.

[Grits]

GM10, anecdotal evidence, a weapon for one who doesn't possess tools or intelligence? How can one make such a statement?

Individuals who have chronicled what we know as . . . . history may not agree with your assessment.

Present your hypothesis? Dishonest, lazy, idiotic--all of the namecalling. I'm surprised Cj's tolerated your comments as long as he has. If your time is so valuable, why on earth are you wasting so much of it arguing about a bunch of dudes in the desert? Its not been clearly evident that you respect anyone here other than yourself and your opinion. While others in the thread have proven you incorrect, you're still coming off, at this point, as a struggling, ego driven individual holding on to your spot of ground. And now, you're whining on top of it. Cj, who's known by his easy going way, is laughing his butt off at you. SERIOUSLY. One hopes you're familiar with the old adage, "there's a fine line between genius and crazy." Cj's good at walking his line. He's patient . . . . hope he doesn't snap and reveal his crazy side to you.:lol: Career military, ya know.:lol: Too, PA's administration here is fair. His integrity has carried this place for 10 years. Could you say the same?

(You're irritated, its best not to reply for now. Relax. It'll all work out. There's plenty of new theads put up each week.:ThmbUp: )

[gm10]

GM10, anecdotal evidence, a weapon for one who doesn't possess tools or intelligence? How can one make such a statement?

Individuals who have chronicled what we know as . . . . history may not agree with your assessment.

Present your hypothesis? Dishonest, lazy, idiotic--all of the namecalling. I'm surprised Cj's tolerated your comments as long as he has. If your time is so valuable, why on earth are you wasting so much of it arguing about a bunch of dudes in the desert? Its not been clearly evident that you respect anyone here other than yourself and your opinion. While others in the thread have proven you incorrect, you're still coming off, at this point, as a struggling, ego driven individual holding on to your spot of ground. And now, you're whining on top of it. Cj, who's known by his easy going way, is laughing his butt off at you. SERIOUSLY. One hopes you're familiar with the old adage, "there's a fine line between genius and crazy." Cj's good at walking his line. He's patient . . . . hope he doesn't snap and reveal his crazy side to you.:lol: Career military, ya know.:lol: Too, PA's administration here is fair. His integrity has carried this place for 10 years. Could you say the same?

(You're irritated, its best not to reply for now. Relax. It'll all work out. There's plenty of new theads put up each week.:ThmbUp: )

Hmmm. It's just not my cup of tea. He provokes, posts claims, ignores requests to back them up, lets other do the work for him, then steps in and says all evidence has already been given. Good luck to you if that does it for you, I think it's very poor.

[gm10]

GM10, anecdotal evidence, a weapon for one who doesn't possess tools or intelligence? How can one make such a statement?

Individuals who have chronicled what we know as . . . . history may not agree with your assessment.


Listen, this is crystal clear imo.
A thing like 'Godolphin is bad for racing' is verifiable. You can easily formulate a hypothesis that you can check on the basis of data.
Just dropping names and saying they never raced again, is purely anecdotal, nothing more, nothing less.

Of course there are horses like that. But if you have some scientific standards, you will investigate the other side as well. How many horses did they bring into this county for the big races? Which proportion of 3yo graded stakes winners do they keep in training and how does that compare with other trainers? These are fairly straightforward things to check. Anyone with a database will be able to tell you within minutes.

[gm10]

Career military, ya know.:lol: Too, PA's administration here is fair. His integrity has carried this place for 10 years. Could you say the same?



Do you consider it fair that a board admin quotes you from a private conversation. Why are they called 'Private Messages'? Shouldn't they be called 'Semi-private messages that the board admin will use against you if he doesn't agree with you on something'?

[cj]

Do you consider it fair that a board admin quotes you from a private conversation. Why are they called 'Private Messages'? Shouldn't they be called 'Semi-private messages that the board admin will use against you if he doesn't agree with you on something'?

If it will make you feel better I can tell you he didn't share that with me. I do appreciate that he called you out for making foolish statements. If you had done five minutes of research on my site you would know what you were suggesting is a complete fabrication. Another poster here PMed me the same shit, WT I believe, and I explained to her I only use the Beyer scale. Nothing else I do is related to Beyers. In typical troll form, I never heard a peep back.

You really are starting to sound pathetic. I gave my opinion on some things with which you don't agree. That is all it is, my opinion...thus the word "think". Now, I will say it is an informed opinion. I have a database going back 5 years. I certainly have done plenty of research. I don't just make things up for fun. That doesn't mean I owe you any statistics, tables, charts, etc. This is especially true with you because when you are proven wrong all you do is change the argument or slither away from the thread.

You asked for some horses and other posters responded before I did. Why in the world would I go back and do the same thing? Believe it or not, I'm not here 24 hours a day waiting your next post so I can respond immediately. What would be the point of reproducing the same lists with maybe a few different horses?

You need to develop a thicker skin. This isn't second grade any longer. Horse racing is a game of divergent opinions, and the people that play the game are usually very opinionated. I'll close by saying any time I'm lumped in with TLG, dahoss and PA and Grits speaks up on my behalf, I must be doing a few things right.

[gm10]

If it will make you feel better I can tell you he didn't share that with me. I do appreciate that he called you out for making foolish statements. If you had done five minutes of research on my site you would know what you were suggesting is a complete fabrication. Another poster here PMed me the same shit, WT I believe, and I explained to her I only use the Beyer scale. Nothing else I do is related to Beyers. In typical troll form, I never heard a peep back.

Learn how to read. I never made that claim. PA asked me why there was such a bad atmosphere and I foolishly tried to give an honest answer and quoted what people had told me (I did and still do not give out any names).

You really are starting to sound pathetic. I gave my opinion on some things with which you don't agree. That is all it is, my opinion...thus the word "think". Now, I will say it is an informed opinion. I have a database going back 5 years. I certainly have done plenty of research. I don't just make things up for fun. That doesn't mean I owe you any statistics, tables, charts, etc. This is especially true with you because when you are proven wrong all you do is change the argument or slither away from the thread.


Listen buddy, you have provided ZERO evidence although it was YOUR claim. I appreciate the contribution that certain posters made, but anybody with scientific training will tell you that they are anecdotes that should never replace objective data analysis.

And for you to just piggyback off that. Well it tells the full story, surely.

You asked for some horses and other posters responded before I did. Why in the world would I go back and do the same thing? Believe it or not, I'm not here 24 hours a day waiting your next post so I can respond immediately. What would be the point of reproducing the same lists with maybe a few different horses?

You need to develop a thicker skin. This isn't second grade any longer. Horse racing is a game of divergent opinions, and the people that play the game are usually very opinionated. I'll close by saying any time I'm lumped in with TLG, dahoss and PA and Grits speaks up on my behalf, I must be doing a few things right.

Well, good luck with your little fan club. I can't comment on Grits, but the other three aren't exactly people whose respect I'm hoping to earn. You make quite the quartet.

[andymays]

gm10

They're just giving you some of your own bad medicine.

You've been tweaking people with most of your posts for a long time. Deal with it like everyone else.

[cj]

Learn how to read. I never made that claim. PA asked me why there was such a bad atmosphere and I foolishly tried to give an honest answer and quoted what people had told me (I did and still do not give out any names).



Maybe that is why PA brought it up. Maybe there is a lot of BS being spread through PMs that people are too chicken shit to mention in public. I know I've been forwarded a few PMs from people where other people just lied about me or made ridiculous assumptions about things they don't understand. Guess what? I don't like it, but I don't respond. Everyone is free to make their own judgments here.

As for providing zero evidence, this isn't a court of law. Before I had a chance others did. I'm not going to duplicate their work. I actually spend most of the day doing work for customers and betting. Appeasing you isn't real high on my list of priorities. If you want to continue to believe the Dubai contingent is in this game to make money, feel free to continue making a fool of yourself. It makes for good entertainment.

By the way, Roger Federer is very disappointed to hear his Roland Garos win last year doesn't count. He sent me a picture of him with the trophy, but I sent him a copy of your post. He immediately capitulated.

[gm10]

gm10

They're just giving you some of your own bad medicine.

You've been tweaking people with most of your posts for a long time. Deal with it like everyone else.

Hey Andy. Been to Santa Anita lately?

[andymays]

Hey Andy. Been to Santa Anita lately?


Hey, gm10 :lol:

I will give you this though. You know less about more than anyone I've ever encountered. :ThmbUp:

[gm10]

Maybe that is why PA brought it up. Maybe there is a lot of BS being spread through PMs that people are too chicken shit to mention in public. I know I've been forwarded a few PMs from people where other people just lied about me or made ridiculous assumptions about things they don't understand. Guess what? I don't like it, but I don't respond. Everyone is free to make their own judgments here.

As for providing zero evidence, this isn't a court of law. Before I had a chance others did. I'm not going to duplicate their work. I actually spend most of the day doing work for customers and betting. Appeasing you isn't real high on my list of priorities. If you want to continue to believe the Dubai contingent is in this game to make money, feel free to continue making a fool of yourself. It makes for good entertainment.

By the way, Roger Federer is very disappointed to hear his Roland Garos win last year doesn't count. He sent me a picture of him with the trophy, but I sent him a copy of your post. He immediately capitulated.

That remark about Federer makes you sound very insecure if I may say so.

Anyway, I have no idea about your work and as even you will notice I do not criticize it publicly. Whether you rehash BSF or Brohamer pace ratings, I could not tell. I will let you know when I disagree however, which seems to pique you a little, but as you quite rightly said, this isn't second grade, so that should be fine.

I still don't understand why a man with 5 years worth of data could not come up with any evidence, by the way. The answers must be right there.

[gm10]

Maybe that is why PA brought it up. Maybe there is a lot of BS being spread through PMs that people are too chicken shit to mention in public. I know I've been forwarded a few PMs from people where other people just lied about me or made ridiculous assumptions about things they don't understand. Guess what? I don't like it, but I don't respond. Everyone is free to make their own judgments here.

As for providing zero evidence, this isn't a court of law. Before I had a chance others did. I'm not going to duplicate their work. I actually spend most of the day doing work for customers and betting. Appeasing you isn't real high on my list of priorities. If you want to continue to believe the Dubai contingent is in this game to make money, feel free to continue making a fool of yourself. It makes for good entertainment.

By the way, Roger Federer is very disappointed to hear his Roland Garos win last year doesn't count. He sent me a picture of him with the trophy, but I sent him a copy of your post. He immediately capitulated.

It's clearly not. Stop trying to find excuses.

Gonna post that you were told by someone that cj's numbers are nothing more than "rehashed Beyer figs?"

[the little guy]

That remark about Federer makes you sound very insecure if I may say so.

Anyway, I have no idea about your work and as even you will notice I do not criticize it publicly. Whether you rehash BSF or Brohamer pace ratings, I could not tell. I will let you know when I disagree however, which seems to pique you a little, but as you quite rightly said, this isn't second grade, so that should be fine.

I still don't understand why a man with 5 years worth of data could not come up with any evidence, by the way. The answers must be right there.


If you are going to criticize someone's work that you know nothing about I guess you figure it's best to do it privately?

[FenceBored]

Listen buddy, you have provided ZERO evidence although it was YOUR claim. I appreciate the contribution that certain posters made, but anybody with scientific training will tell you that they are anecdotes that should never replace objective data analysis.


:lol: "objective data analysis" :lol:

That from the guy who gave us this gem of unsubstatiated claptrap:

"... it's harder on the turf, because it's the global number one surface, so the world's best horses run on it."


-- http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=753196&postcount=38

[cj]

I will admit I don't keep track in my database of horses that run here, are bought and sent to Dubai, and don't return. Why the hell would I? I don't track ownership changes.

If that somehow means I am wrong, I want to see proof. Taking lots of horses from THIS COUNTRY and running them in another stinks for THIS COUNTRY. Any fool knows they do this, and do it often.

[Hedevar]

Learn how to read. I never made that claim. PA asked me why there was such a bad atmosphere and I foolishly tried to give an honest answer and quoted what people had told me (I did and still do not give out any names).


gm10

Your snide remarks to the people you address make you sound like a juvenile attempting to put down an older relative. Additionally, your insistence in continuing this discussion and attempting to get the last word has you appearing foolish to all who read this thread.

[gm10]

If you are going to criticize someone's work that you know nothing about I guess you figure it's best to do it privately?

Tell me where I did that.

[gm10]

gm10

Your snide remarks to the people you address make you sound like a juvenile attempting to put down an older relative. Additionally, your insistence in continuing this discussion and attempting to get the last word has you appearing foolish to all who read this thread.

Have you even followed this thread? Have you seen how statements were followed by complete silence, then by insults? I am not the one who started this, would you not agree? He even admitted himself that he started it as bait for me.

I honestly do not understand all these opinions on me when all I ask for is evidence that one board administrator backs up his own words but get insults as a response, and when the second board administrator quotes my own words from a private conversation.

[andymays]

Have you even followed this thread? Have you seen how statements were followed by complete silence, then by insults? I am not the one who started this, would you not agree? He even admitted himself that he started it as bait for me.

I honestly do not understand all these opinions on me when all I ask for is evidence that one board administrator backs up his own words but get insults as a response, and when the second board administrator quotes my own words from a private conversation.


Once again they're giving you some of your own bad medicine. Enjoy it gm10, Enjoy! ;)

[gm10]

I will admit I don't keep track in my database of horses that run here, are bought and sent to Dubai, and don't return. Why the hell would I? I don't track ownership changes.

If that somehow means I am wrong, I want to see proof. Taking lots of horses from THIS COUNTRY and running them in another stinks for THIS COUNTRY. Any fool knows they do this, and do it often.

:D

you want proof against a claim that you made yourself?
you cannot be serious
who do you think you are??

[Hedevar]

Have you even followed this thread? Have you seen how statements were followed by complete silence, then by insults? I am not the one who started this, would you not agree? He even admitted himself that he started it as bait for me.

I honestly do not understand all these opinions on me when all I ask for is evidence that one board administrator backs up his own words but get insults as a response, and when the second board administrator quotes my own words from a private conversation.

Yes, I have followed this thread.

[gm10]

Yes, I have followed this thread.

And you read that the only reason why he started it was as bait? And you saw that he has given ZERO arguments but recuperated others' attempt and then pretended like I had been proven wrong all along? And you read that the other admin blatantly revealed my honest attempt at answering a private question? Call me argumentative and snide all you like, but there is absolutely no way that I'm in the wrong here.

[cj]

:D

you want proof against a claim that you made yourself?
you cannot be serious
who do you think you are??

I believe the claim to be true. You haven't proven otherwise, or even come close. Therefore, I still believe it to be true.

I didn't start this thread for you. That was just sarcasm since you claimed to have baited people twice since in this thread.

[Dahoss9698]

And you read that the only reason why he started it was as bait? And you saw that he has given ZERO arguments but recuperated others' attempt and then pretended like I had been proven wrong all along? And you read that the other admin blatantly revealed my honest attempt at answering a private question? Call me argumentative and snide all you like, but there is absolutely no way that I'm in the wrong here.

Yes you are wrong. You are always wrong.

[gm10]

I believe the claim to be true. You haven't proven otherwise, or even come close. Therefore, I still believe it to be true.


Great. I can easily live with your beliefs.

But if a jockey claims foul against the winner, he'll need evidence or the winner stays the winner. Same with you. Unless you can prove that Godolphin are worse for American racing than other major stables, they are simply not better or worse. Innocent until proven guilty and all that - a military man like yourself should know that.

I didn't start this thread for you. That was just sarcasm since you claimed to have baited people twice since in this thread.

Oh please.

[Hedevar]

And you read that the only reason why he started it was as bait? And you saw that he has given ZERO arguments but recuperated others' attempt and then pretended like I had been proven wrong all along? And you read that the other admin blatantly revealed my honest attempt at answering a private question? Call me argumentative and snide all you like, but there is absolutely no way that I'm in the wrong here.

Did you ever consider that the bait statement was made in the middle of this thread to get a rise out of you? As for your other questions I do not intend to get involved. I simply wanted to let you know the perception of some people on this board. Clearly I cannot speak for all.

[cj]

Great. I can easily live with your beliefs.

But if a jockey claims foul against the winner, he'll need evidence or the winner stays the winner. Same with you. Unless you can prove that Godolphin are worse for American racing than other major stables, they are simply not better or worse. Innocent until proven guilty and all that - a military man like yourself should know that.



Oh please.

Are you trying to say they don't remove horses from the US? What does it matter if they race some here? They would have raced here any way. There is nothing to prove, it is common sense.

[gm10]

Are you trying to say they don't remove horses from the US? What does it matter if they race some here? They would have raced here any way. There is nothing to prove, it is common sense.

I'm not saying anything. It is you who is making sweeping statements. That is your choice - but surely you can see that it is then up to you to back them up.

[cj]

It really is that simple. They buy a lot of good horses and remove them from the country. A few make it back, many don't, but even those that do often race in Dubai a few times. That isn't good for US bettors, or racing in general. I'm not sure how much more simplistic I can make it.

Take off the Dubai colored glasses for a second and you might see the point.

[gm10]

Did you ever consider that the bait statement was made in the middle of this thread to get a rise out of you? As for your other questions I do not intend to get involved. I simply wanted to let you know the perception of some people on this board. Clearly I cannot speak for all.

OK, sure, it wasn't bait, so I guess he was serious. Remind me - what has he said that you made believe it is correct? And what about the shocking violation of privacy? What is your view on that?

[Dahoss9698]

Shocking violation of privacy....:lol:

[gm10]

It really is that simple. They buy a lot of good horses and remove them from the country. A few make it back, many don't, but even those that do often race in Dubai a few times. That isn't good for US bettors, or racing in general. I'm not sure how much more simplistic I can make it.

Take off the Dubai colored glasses for a second and you might see the point.

Dude, I don't even like Dubai, and I can clearly see some misgivings. Yes, taking horses out of the country is bad, but surely you must admit there is a flip side to that coin. Look at the kind of money they have pumped into the breeding and owners' markets, the training standards they use for their horses, the number horses they fly over for the big races every year. How is that bad for American racing?

[Hedevar]

OK, sure, it wasn't bait, so I guess he was serious. Remind me - what has he said that you made believe it is correct? And what about the shocking violation of privacy? What is your view on that?

gm10, when cj said it was bait he was pulling your chain to get a reaction and he clearly succeeded.

[cj]

Dude, I don't even like Dubai, and I can clearly see some misgivings. Yes, taking horses out of the country is bad, but surely you must admit there is a flip side to that coin. Look at the kind of money they have pumped into the breeding and owners' markets, the training standards they use for their horses, the number horses they fly over for the big races every year. How is that bad for American racing?

I said they were bad for bettors. It doesn't matter if they have helped a few owners....bettors I said....bettors. You keep changing the argument as usual. The horses they have flown over WERE ALREADY HERE before they bought them for the most part.

Even the money they pump in to breeders is debatable if it is all good. They are creating an artificially high price for others that want to play. The reason, and I know you disagree, is that they aren't in this for profit. They are trying to win trophies, many that they give out themselves.

[thaskalos]

I said they were bad for bettors. It doesn't matter if they have helped a few owners....bettors I said....bettors. You keep changing the argument as usual. The horses they have flown over WERE ALREADY HERE before they bought them for the most part.

Even the money they pump in to breeders is debatable if it is all good. They are creating an artificially high price for others that want to play. The reason, and I know you disagree, is that they aren't in this for profit. They are trying to win trophies, many that they give out themselves.If the money that Dubai pumps into the auctions is not necessarily a good thing because it artificially inflates the prices for other owners in this game...can we agree that today's sagging auction sales are a good thing for the industry?

We can't have it both ways...

[gm10]

I said they were bad for bettors. It doesn't matter if they have helped a few owners....bettors I said....bettors. You keep changing the argument as usual. The horses they have flown over WERE ALREADY HERE before they bought them for the most part.

Even the money they pump in to breeders is debatable if it is all good. They are creating an artificially high price for others that want to play. The reason, and I know you disagree, is that they aren't in this for profit. They are trying to win trophies, many that they give out themselves.

Yes CJ, so you said that they are bad for bettors because they decrease field sizes. I have always acknowledged that they ship some horses off to Dubai (like other stables) - however, many return.

They bring tons of money to the industry. You say they create artificially high prices. But at the same time you're telling me they are wasting money. Which one is it then? Either they are benefiting from all that invested money, and if not them, others are.

They bring plenty of good horses over from Europe. You know that their horses are only in the race because they are deemed healthy enough. They keep plenty of good 2yo's and 3yo's in training where others would simply follow the money trail to the breeding shed.

Would you not agree that this reprensents a balanced view?

[cj]

If the money that Dubai pumps into the auctions is not necessarily a good thing because it artificially inflates the prices for other owners in this game...can we agree that today's sagging auction sales are a good thing for the industry?

We can't have it both ways...

I think a lot of that is because people have been run out of the game. They got tired of competing against the Coolmores and the Godolphins. Also, the high prices these people were paying for unraced horses is what has driven many to prematurely retire horses. So it is bad for racing. Yes, I think long term this could be a good thing.

[Spalding No!]

Yes CJ, so you said that they are bad for bettors because they decrease field sizes. I have always acknowledged that they ship some horses off to Dubai (like other stables) - however, many return.

They bring tons of money to the industry. You say they create artificially high prices. But at the same time you're telling me they are wasting money. Which one is it then? Either they are benefiting from all that invested money, and if not them, others are.

They bring plenty of good horses over from Europe. You know that their horses are only in the race because they are deemed healthy enough. They keep plenty of good 2yo's and 3yo's in training where others would simply follow the money trail to the breeding shed.

Would you not agree that this reprensents a balanced view?
You're ignoring that there is a give-and-take relationship between the breeding industry and the racing industry within the Thoroughbred world as a whole. Godolphin overloads the breeding side of things with their wealth to the detriment of the racing side, helping to disrupt any sort of balance between the two.

As far as the "keeping them in training" argument, how do you explain them snatching up 3 of the 4 best 3yos in training in 2007 and promptly retiring them? They might not do that every year, but even once in a blue moon, especially when it involves really top class colts, it negatively impacts the racing environment.

Furthermore, whether they stay in training or not is often immaterial, because their campaign strategy is a disaster. For instance, purchasing the two best American 2yos in 2008, and then failing to make it to even a major prep race, let alone a Triple Crown event. Look at what they did last year with Cocoa Beach, Seventh Street, and Giralomo. They called audibles right and left with those horses, running them in sprints, turf races, etc. simply because they had too many horses pointing towards the same races. Their reaction? Take a few of them and run them where they don't belong. Brilliant. The same thing is likely to happen to Desert Party this year.

[cj]

You're ignoring that there is a give-and-take relationship between the breeding industry and the racing industry within the Thoroughbred world as a whole. Godolphin overloads the breeding side of things with their wealth to the detriment of the racing side, helping to disrupt any sort of balance between the two.

As far as the "keeping them in training" argument, how do you explain them snatching up 3 of the 4 best 3yos in training in 2007 and promptly retiring them? They might not do that every year, but even once in a blue moon, especially when it involves really top class colts, it negatively impacts the racing environment.

Furthermore, whether they stay in training or not is often immaterial, because their campaign strategy is a disaster. For instance, purchasing the two best American 2yos in 2008, and then failing to make it to even a major prep race, let alone a Triple Crown event. Look at what they did last year with Cocoa Beach, Seventh Street, and Giralomo. They called audibles right and left with those horses, running them in sprints, turf races, etc. simply because they had too many horses pointing towards the same races. Their reaction? Take a few of them and run them where they don't belong. Brilliant. The same thing is likely to happen to Desert Party this year.

Wow, all that without a database. Nice.

[Cratos]

I don’t have a dog in this fight and I have tried to follow this “thread,” but the multiplicity of topics has made it not a “thread,” but a “blanket” which should be folded up.

[Spalding No!]

I don’t have a dog in this fight and I have tried to follow this “thread,” but the multiplicity of topics has made it not a “thread,” but a “blanket” which should be folded up.
...or you could just put a bag over your head.

[Cratos]

In the horseracing industry we live in a world of scarcity and as it is presently constructed we have the clash of two different fields of economics, microeconomics vs. macroeconomics and Godolphin is playing on both fields.

On the macroeconomic field Godolphin looks at the aggregate horse economy; the auction and breeding segment; and how the buyers make their purchasing decisions. On the Microeconomic field Godolphin focus is the stakes segment and how trainers/owners make their stake racing decisions.

We can relate each of these economic subgroups to production, price, and income.

In macroeconomics, Godolphin will be watchful to how many stakes quality horse are produced each year and what auction price they are being sold at to yield an income to the seller.

In microeconomics they will want to know how many stakes are being won per horse at what purse value to yield an income to the owner.

This becomes all very complex, but the “deep pockets” player has the upper hand because he/she can play on both fields.

Is this good for racing and the bettors? Probably not because the bettors are not included in this equation. Gone are the good old days of Calumet Farms, Gainesway and other where homebreds to race were a significant part of the breeding operation. Yes, there were the auction ring because that has always been significant in breeding/racing, but I believe at one time a stallion wouldn’t cover more than 36 mares per breeding season; today that number has jumped to over 100 primarily because of the macroeconomics of the auction.

[Dahoss9698]

Anyone have the cliffnotes for that?

[tucker6]

Anyone have the cliffnotes for that?
I have a degree in economics, and it made no sense to me either, so don't feel bad.

For the record, micro and macro are not exclusive of each other, nor is it a case of one versus the other. They work hand-in-hand to shape the ebb and flow of business.

[thaskalos]

Anyone have the cliffnotes for that? Yes!

The "deep-pocket" player seems to have an advantage...whereas the "shallow-pocket" player must operate with a disadvantage. :)

[tucker6]

Yes!

The "deep-pocket" player seems to have an advantage...whereas the "narrow-pocket" player" must operate with a disadvantage. :)
A very good case could be made that the opposite is true. As Godolphin continues to buy the most expensive horses, a pricing discontuity should exist between the haves and have nots, but as we know success on the race track is not predicated by the sale price of the horse. Very similar to the Yankees and the rest of baseball. The Yankees win their share ~20%, but everyone else wins 80% of the time, and for far less cost per win.

How does this affect the horseplayer?? It really shouldn't as long as the purchase price issue doesn't have the effect of producing smaller fields in general. The races will not be "for the ages" in all likelihood, but odds are odds, aren't they??

That's my economic take on matters.

[Cratos]

I have a degree in economics, and it made no sense to me either, so don't feel bad.

For the record, micro and macro are not exclusive of each other, nor is it a case of one versus the other. They work hand-in-hand to shape the ebb and flow of business.

So do I and in econometrics to be specific, but this is not about education levels nor was there any inference about the two economic subgroups being exclusive in a given economy.

What was being said is how the principles and conditions of economics affect the person without “deep pockets.” They are different at the macro level than at the micro level.

However I am not interested in arguing an economic principle which you can find in any Economic 101 textbook.

The point here is that the small guy can’t play “economically” with Godolphin in the horseracing economy.

[thaskalos]

How does this affect the horseplayer?? It really shouldn't as long as the purchase price issue doesn't have the effect of producing smaller fields in general. The races will not be "for the ages" in all likelihood, but odds are odds, aren't they??

That's my economic take on matters. Is the horseplayer's top priority to find good bets, or to watch classy horses? I don't know about everybody else, but from a betting standpoint - which, after all, is what counts - I can generate more enthusiasm for a competitive 10K claiming race, than for the Kentucky Derby.

[tucker6]

The point here is that the small guy can’t play “economically” with Godolphin in the horseracing economy.

Econometrics eh? Loved the course work, but didn't see my economic future in that degree sub-group. Great for horseplaying I bet!!

The baseball analogy proves that your hypothesis is incorrect. Most teams can't pay what the Yankees pay, but they can compete with them on a daily basis, and the Yankees don't win a vast majority of the world series held. Once the small guys all realize they can't play with Godolphin, they modify their business plan accordingly. Your post assumes a static business model whereby Godolphin always has the upper hand, but we all know that isn't reality. Besides, as the other owners see that Godolphin's on-the-track success doesn't follow his money trail, the small guys will more quickly move in a different direction than Godolphin is. Just my take on it.

[Cratos]

Econometrics eh? Loved the course work, but didn't see my economic future in that degree sub-group. Great for horseplaying I bet!!

The baseball analogy proves that your hypothesis is incorrect. Most teams can't pay what the Yankees pay, but they can compete with them on a daily basis, and the Yankees don't win a vast majority of the world series held. Once the small guys all realize they can't play with Godolphin, they modify their business plan accordingly. Your post assumes a static business model whereby Godolphin always has the upper hand, but we all know that isn't reality. Besides, as the other owners see that Godolphin's on-the-track success doesn't follow his money trail, the small guys will more quickly move in a different direction than Godolphin is. Just my take on it.

Thanks, but I don't buy your "baseball analogy" and I have done quite well, but again this is not about you or me it about horseracing.

Therefore we have a different opinion and if you think mine is wrong, so be it.

[tucker6]

Thanks, but I don't buy your "baseball analogy" and I have done quite well, but again this is not about you or me it about horseracing.

Therefore we have a different opinion and if you think mine is wrong, so be it.
Yes, we'll agree to disagree, but don't sweat it. I'm not here to fight about it.

[Hedevar]

A very good case could be made that the opposite is true. As Godolphin continues to buy the most expensive horses, a pricing discontuity should exist between the haves and have nots, but as we know success on the race track is not predicated by the sale price of the horse. Very similar to the Yankees and the rest of baseball. The Yankees win their share ~20%, but everyone else wins 80% of the time, and for far less cost per win.

How does this affect the horseplayer?? It really shouldn't as long as the purchase price issue doesn't have the effect of producing smaller fields in general. The races will not be "for the ages" in all likelihood, but odds are odds, aren't they??

That's my economic take on matters.

Does Godolphin affect individuals breeding, buying and racing horses? Absolutely, they have priced some people right out of the game. Are they good for American racing? I don't see how exporting some of the best horses America produces can be considered good for American racing and breeding.

Does Godolphin affect the average horseplayer? I really don't see how other than to deprive a racing fan from going to the track and seeing a really good horse race. Godoolphin has nothing to do with empty stands and six horse fields for the horseplayer. The horseplayer is at the bottom of the triangle. Godolphin has effected those higher up. Some change may trickle down but the people responsible for empty stands and six horse fields are much closer to home.

[tucker6]

Does Godolphin affect individuals breeding, buying and racing horses? Absolutely, they have priced some people right out of the game. Are they good for American racing?
How can that be?? Hasn't Godolphin proved in recent years that sell price of a horse has nothing to do with success on the track? Most of Godolphin's horses race abroad. There's still a lot of money to be made in the USA by owners who did not pay too high a price. The problem as I see it is that there's less horseplayer money in horse racing these days, and thus purses are lower. I see the problem from the revenue side, not the cost side.

[Hedevar]

How can that be?? Hasn't Godolphin proved in recent years that sell price of a horse has nothing to do with success on the track? Most of Godolphin's horses race abroad. There's still a lot of money to be made in the USA by owners who did not pay too high a price. The problem as I see it is that there's less horseplayer money in horse racing these days, and thus purses are lower. I see the problem from the revenue side, not the cost side.

With the economy as it is I will grant you that sale prices are down and have been for a couple of years. However, did not Godolphin and other middle east interests raise the average sale price of horses prior to the economic slump? I am discounting The Green Monkey. I do not keep statistics, as I no longer have the patience to do so. My impressions are purely anecdotal. From what I read some are simply unwilling to go against the big middle east money. I am not equating success on the track with cost. Godolphin buys in the US as well, along with other middle east interests.

I see the problem as both one of cost and revenue.

[gm10]

Does Godolphin affect individuals breeding, buying and racing horses? Absolutely, they have priced some people right out of the game. Are they good for American racing? I don't see how exporting some of the best horses America produces can be considered good for American racing and breeding.

Does Godolphin affect the average horseplayer? I really don't see how other than to deprive a racing fan from going to the track and seeing a really good horse race. Godoolphin has nothing to do with empty stands and six horse fields for the horseplayer. The horseplayer is at the bottom of the triangle. Godolphin has effected those higher up. Some change may trickle down but the people responsible for empty stands and six horse fields are much closer to home.

On a global level, they have helped increase the valuation of the sport. Horse racing as a whole benefits from that, the American branch of horse racing benefits from that. Every industry wants to be more highly valued, that's how you measure its importance.

Now, what happened to those investments? Did they lead to an increase in output (=more horses)? It is conceivable, as a lot of breeders are picking up a lot of big cheques, which they could use to expand their business. Or are there any hard facts that says that although breeders are now selling more big tickets, they are finding it much harder to sell the rest of the horses? That could be true - there is definitely a risk that Godolphin/Ballydole are creating a long-term imbalance that will make the valuation of the industry unsustainable. As an interesting sidenote - is this their fault? Surely the industry should be regulating itself and guaranteeing its own future? Other industries do.

Anyway, what I don't agree with is that this is affecting bettors. You cannot say that they are decreasing field sizes without having a clear answer to the above questions. Why are field sizes in California so low, where Godolphin isn't very active? Could it not be down to fundamental factors that are affecting the rest of the country as well, such as a general decline in interest in the sport?

[JustRalph]

On a global level, they have helped increase the valuation of the sport. Horse racing as a whole benefits from that, the American branch of horse racing benefits from that. Every industry wants to be more highly valued, that's how you measure its importance.

How do you figure they increased the value of the sport ? I think there is some pretty good evidence that they have done the opposite

[gm10]

How do you figure they increased the value of the sport ? I think there is some pretty good evidence that they have done the opposite

Apparently, Sheikh Mo has injected about 1 billion into the industry. He must have done some serious damage too if the net contribution to the industry is negative.

[Hedevar]

On a global level, they have helped increase the valuation of the sport. Horse racing as a whole benefits from that, the American branch of horse racing benefits from that. Every industry wants to be more highly valued, that's how you measure its importance.

Now, what happened to those investments? Did they lead to an increase in output (=more horses)? It is conceivable, as a lot of breeders are picking up a lot of big cheques, which they could use to expand their business. Or are there any hard facts that says that although breeders are now selling more big tickets, they are finding it much harder to sell the rest of the horses? That could be true - there is definitely a risk that Godolphin/Ballydole are creating a long-term imbalance that will make the valuation of the industry unsustainable. As an interesting sidenote - is this their fault? Surely the industry should be regulating itself and guaranteeing its own future? Other industries do.

Anyway, what I don't agree with is that this is affecting bettors. You cannot say that they are decreasing field sizes without having a clear answer to the above questions. Why are field sizes in California so low, where Godolphin isn't very active? Could it not be down to fundamental factors that are affecting the rest of the country as well, such as a general decline in interest in the sport?

I said they were not responsible for empty stands and six horse fields other then in a small trickle down manner. But I should tell you from the start, I have neither the patience or the inclination to engage in a ten page discussion on this matter, nor will I.

[GMB@BP]

Yes they did.. he was entered in the Derby off an almost 8 month layoff and ran 7th.. In the Preakness, he was beaten almost 40 lths, the only horse he was able to beat got pulled up.

He was the leading juvenile in California in 98...

2EWgimIzdr4


I miss Golden Eagle Farm and I miss dirt.........thanks for nothing posting that.

[GMB@BP]

If you are going to criticize someone's work that you know nothing about I guess you figure it's best to do it privately?

This is what happens in arguments when one of the players is in over their head.

[gm10]

This is what happens in arguments when one of the players is in over their head.

Still waiting to see where I criticized his product. I don't think I ever have and don't think I ever will either (in public at least). I simply don't know what it is or how it works.

[PaceAdvantage]

You are shameless.

I will make this very clear to everybody: the admin of this message board is literally quoting me from a private conversation.

This is beyond belief. I cannot express my disgust enough. You, Pace Advantage, have accomplished the impossible. I respect you even less than CJ, TLG and DaHoss now.Are you going to pull out your hanky, utter "Well I never!" and dramatically faint in front of everyone?

And for the record, I was certainly NOT literally quoting you from a private conversation. However, since I'm being accused of such, I might as well go out in a blaze of glory...here is what you LITERALLY stated:

I'll repeat, they don't trust you and CJ (=board admins) because you always seem to be defending BSF and attacking everything that they can't explain (Zenyatta), while at the same time CJ sells speed figures which are rumoured to be rehashed BSF, and which obviously don't explain the nation's favourite horse either. I'm prepared to go public on ALL the bullshit that's been spread via private message lately, because quite frankly, I'm tired of it...BULLSHIT is fair game to be aired publicly as far as I'm concerned.

[PaceAdvantage]

Learn how to read. I never made that claim. PA asked me why there was such a bad atmosphere and I foolishly tried to give an honest answer and quoted what people had told me (I did and still do not give out any names).Wrong again. I did NOT ask you why there was a bad atmosphere...here is what I asked:

But I have a question for you. It disturbs me that you think this board is a marketing tool for cj's figures. cj rarely if ever starts a thread talking about his figures. If anything, he only responds when directly asked.

So I would like to ask you what about this message board makes it look like it is a marketing tool for cj's figures? Do you find him starting threads about his figures that I have missed? I don't get this...but if it's something obvious I have missed, I would like to fix it so that there isn't this kind of misinterpretation in the future...and if that includes getting rid of cj as a moderator, then that is what I will do.PS. I was only using that "getting rid of CJ as a moderator" as bait...I would never get rid of CJ as a moderator...if he ever leaves here as a mod, it will be by his own hand, not mine.

[Dahoss9698]

Are you going to pull out your hanky, utter "Well I never!" and dramatically faint in front of everyone?

And for the record, I was certainly NOT literally quoting you from a private conversation. However, since I'm being accused of such, I might as well go out in a blaze of glory...here is what you LITERALLY stated:

I'm prepared to go public on ALL the bullshit that's been spread via private message lately, because quite frankly, I'm tired of it...BULLSHIT is fair game to be aired publicly as far as I'm concerned.

Hopefully you don't get the same treatment I did when I mentioned a sentence of a pm a few months back. Must be some kind of pm frenzy going on by a select few. Pretty amusing stuff.

[cj]

I don't really like when people mention my figures here. If I do it, which is rarely, it is usually to make a point in a thread. It certainly isn't to generate sales. I have enough already and don't actively try to get any more.

The whole PM thing is pretty sad. If anything, I have always been up front both here and with my customers. If anyone has anything to address they are free to ask, via email, PM, or public thread. At least then I can answer any questions, and even better, stop the spread of "rumors" by people that don't understand or take the time to learn what my product is all about.

[cj]

I should also mention that in another thread, I stated I really appreciate Zenyatta and that no horse has helped me more than her with making figures for synthetic surfaces. Of course, none of those who accuse me of disliking the horse or the surface bothered to respond.

[gm10]

Wrong again. I did NOT ask you why there was a bad atmosphere...here is what I asked:

PS. I was only using that "getting rid of CJ as a moderator" as bait...I would never get rid of CJ as a moderator...if he ever leaves here as a mod, it will be by his own hand, not mine.

You asked what was going on this board, you couldn't believe some of the things you were reading. To me, as I quoted in my replies, this meant that you were asking me why there was a bad atmosphere.

I have no idea why you are are publishing the contents of private messages. You are a nightmare. A veritable, unprofessional nightmare.

[gm10]

I should also mention that in another thread, I stated I really appreciate Zenyatta and that no horse has helped me more than her with making figures for synthetic surfaces. Of course, none of those who accuse me of disliking the horse or the surface bothered to respond.

So what have you learnt from her then?

[gm10]

I don't really like when people mention my figures here. If I do it, which is rarely, it is usually to make a point in a thread. It certainly isn't to generate sales. I have enough already and don't actively try to get any more.

The whole PM thing is pretty sad. If anything, I have always been up front both here and with my customers. If anyone has anything to address they are free to ask, via email, PM, or public thread. At least then I can answer any questions, and even better, stop the spread of "rumors" by people that don't understand or take the time to learn what my product is all about.

The whole PM thing is completely PATHETIC. Paceadvantage asked me what I thought was going on, and I explained him that some people do no trust you or him. This is from actual feedback. However ... this was private . If Paceadvantage loses the rest of his marbles he will publish the full conversation and you will see for yourself (of course he may already have sent it to you).

Personally, I think you are quite cunning in using this site as a marketing tool for your product. You haven't fooled me yet, though ;) .

FYI, what I told your esteemed colleague paceadvantage:

Originally Posted by gm10:
'your message board looks like a marketing tool because one of the admins sells a product and the other one usually sides with him in the discussions. If you went to a nutritional information site and found out that it was run by McDonalds, wouldn't you be at least a little bit suspicious?'

[cj]

Personally, I think you are quite cunning in using this site as a marketing tool for your product. You haven't fooled me yet, though ;) .



As with most everything else, wrong again. You have no idea of the history of my product or how it even came about. I have better things to do with my time then to try to fool you.

[FenceBored]

The whole PM thing is completely PATHETIC. Paceadvantage asked me what I thought was going on, and I explained him that some people do no trust you or him. This is from actual feedback. However ... this was private . If Paceadvantage loses the rest of his marbles he will publish the full conversation and you will see for yourself (of course he may already have sent it to you).

Personally, I think you are quite cunning in using this site as a marketing tool for your product. You haven't fooled me yet, though ;) .

FYI, what I told your esteemed colleague paceadvantage:

Originally Posted by gm10:
'your message board looks like a marketing tool because one of the admins sells a product and the other one usually sides with him in the discussions. If you went to a nutritional information site and found out that it was run by McDonalds, wouldn't you be at least a little bit suspicious?'

I really don't know where you get this stuff. It's not like we're a bunch of zombies around
<hypnotised_monotone> Must buy CJ's figures. Mmm, McDonalds. Must buy Big Mac. Eat Big Mac while studying CJ's figures. Drink delicious McDonalds Cafe Latte while wagering on races using CJ's figures. Must avoid LateKick.com, run by that guy CJ argues with. </hypnotised_monotone>
here. Perhaps a certain nutritional information site isn't doing so well because it's neither nutritional nor informative.

[gm10]

As with most everything else, wrong again. You have no idea of the history of my product or how it even came about. I have better things to do with my time then to try to fool you.

OK fair enough.

Do you want to tell us want you learnt from Zenyatta wrt speed figures on the synthetic? I'm actually interested in that.

[the little guy]

OK fair enough.

Do you want to tell us want you learnt from Zenyatta wrt speed figures on the synthetic? I'm actually interested in that.


Fair enough?

What would be " fair enough " would be someone who has been here for 10 minutes not questioning the integrity of someone like CJ who has earned a great deal of professional respect both on this site and in the real world.

Instead of asking days ago whether or not I knew CJ, maybe you should have taken a step back and tried to figure that one out for yourself. It might have stopped you from damaging yourself by trying to smear him on this site. People seem to say a lot of garbage about others in PMs....ever wonder why they need to do it in private?

[Grits]

Sick of all of this. Sick of the whole deal. Sick of you, sir, and your mewling and whining. But worse, your gutless, now exposed, trolling.

The whole PM thing is completely PATHETIC.

No. You're mistaken. I'm sorry. YOU are the only thing in all of this that is PATHETIC.

I explained him that some people do no trust you or him. This is from actual feedback.

When someone owns, operates and moderates, with assistance from only two other members, a website of this size, and someone steps up publicly stating they have sought "actual feedback" from others regarding the integrity of the owner and the moderators--there's a collosal problem here.

One doesn't care whether your conversation is private, or aired on CNN. The fact that you've stated--you've sought feedback of any kind, regarding the integrity of these men in not only wrong on multiple levels--indicating far more about yourself than either of them, it is also undermining the daily operation of this site.

You, supposedly (I guess,) a grown man, and anyone else--male or female--should be asked or made to leave. You don't deserve the privilege of participating here. Anyone that is so uncomfortable, so disgruntled, or so lacking in guts that you'd resort to seeking feedback from others in your concerted effort to fuel discourse or animosity at a place where you have the ability to speak freely exchanging ideas and opinions about a sport you passionately care about is violating that privilege.

You can claim to be appalled at what you percieve as privacy issues all you want. Your privacy, or anyone else's, is not the issue here. Your gutless troll like behavior is the issue. And it IS, clearly, pathetic.

One other note. Why would I purchase anything from a guy who has used . . . learnt?