Intellectual vs Player

[Handiman]

I have been having a polite discussion with a couple of friends of mine about Horse Racing as an intellectual pursuit versus H.R. from a player standpoint. The discussion has resulted in a question being formed that I honestly don't know the answer too, nor do I have a complete solid position established concerning it.

That question is as best as I can formulate it is, do the majority of "horseplayers" really play on a daily basis, or do most just participate in discussions, arguments and /or the pursuit of developing sports mental acuity as far as is possible?

There seems to be almost no limit in the number of forums popping up, but where are the serious players? Those that pursue profits on a daily basis. Or are there really that many players that play consistently day after day on the computer? I know the OTB's have their regulars and each track does as well. I'm not talking about the whales or mini whales, just about the everyday Joe who like many on this board speak of playing every day.

Interested in any responses.

Handi:)

[misscashalot]

I have been having a polite discussion with a couple of friends of mine about Horse Racing as an intellectual pursuit versus H.R. from a player standpoint. The discussion has resulted in a question being formed that I honestly don't know the answer too, nor do I have a complete solid position established concerning it.

That question is as best as I can formulate it is, do the majority of "horseplayers" really play on a daily basis, or do most just participate in discussions, arguments and /or the pursuit of developing sports mental acuity as far as is possible?

There seems to be almost no limit in the number of forums popping up, but where are the serious players? Those that pursue profits on a daily basis. Or are there really that many players that play consistently day after day on the computer? I know the OTB's have their regulars and each track does as well. I'm not talking about the whales or mini whales, just about the everyday Joe who like many on this board speak of playing every day.

Interested in any responses.

Handi:)

Most serious players who make $ don't participate on these boards
only those wanting to improve and those who have something to sell

[completebill]

Most serious players who make $ don't participate on these boards
only those wanting to improve and those who have something to sell

I'm not at all sure you're correct. I rarely post, but do actively read the posts on a daily basis. I play, seriously (not really "playing", I guess!) at least 6 days/ week, and my flat bet win r.o.i.stands at 1.24 for the year.

It's probably not appropriate for me to "out" them here, but I PERSONALLY know several posters here who are regular and profitable bettors.

You got one thing right, though--------Part of the reason I'm here is that I ALWAYS want to improve. Good ideas can come from many sources.

[Stillriledup]

I have been having a polite discussion with a couple of friends of mine about Horse Racing as an intellectual pursuit versus H.R. from a player standpoint. The discussion has resulted in a question being formed that I honestly don't know the answer too, nor do I have a complete solid position established concerning it.

That question is as best as I can formulate it is, do the majority of "horseplayers" really play on a daily basis, or do most just participate in discussions, arguments and /or the pursuit of developing sports mental acuity as far as is possible?

There seems to be almost no limit in the number of forums popping up, but where are the serious players? Those that pursue profits on a daily basis. Or are there really that many players that play consistently day after day on the computer? I know the OTB's have their regulars and each track does as well. I'm not talking about the whales or mini whales, just about the everyday Joe who like many on this board speak of playing every day.

Interested in any responses.

Handi:)


What does H.R. mean in your first sentence?

[JustRalph]

What does H.R. mean in your first sentence?

Wow? Human Resources ..........right?



I have missed about 4 days in the last 2 months Due to travel and illness. Just because I have the time right now..........but there have been times when I didn't play for 3 months or so.........things change..... I don't think you can pin it down........everybody changes over time

[GaryG]

There were times when I treated it like going to the office. Then I thought, wait a minute, if I wanted that kind of like I would be working in an office. Now I play when I really want to. I just don't have the desire to work that hard any more. Don't know if there is a category for an elderly slacker who works when he wants....:lol:

[Robert Fischer]

That question is as best as I can formulate it is, do the majority of "horseplayers" really play on a daily basis, or do most just participate in discussions, arguments and /or the pursuit of developing sports mental acuity as far as is possible?
The majority of "horseplayers" play at least once a week most weeks and show some sort of compulsive behavior. Just by definition of a person who would refer to themselves as a horseplayer probably plays a a fair amount.

some online message board participants who frequent horseracing message boards participate in discussions for the purpose of developing mental acuity, while most do it for entertainment or as a compulsive activity.

Most of the intellectuals online are psuedo-intellectuals, and some are salesman.




There seems to be almost no limit in the number of forums popping up, but where are the serious players? Those that pursue profits on a daily basis. Or are there really that many players that play consistently day after day on the computer? I know the OTB's have their regulars and each track does as well. I'm not talking about the whales or mini whales, just about the everyday Joe who like many on this board speak of playing every day.


Most serious profit-pursuers are probably doing just that - working hard on an upcoming race or studying the pools. Some are at home online in front of their ADW site, others may have a setup at a track OTB, casino etc...
I don't have cold hard statistics on everyday joe "horseplayers" and their playing habits.

Could be some value and possible some interesting stuff in that field of expertise.

[proximity]

That question is as best as I can formulate it is, do the majority of "horseplayers" really play on a daily basis, or do most just participate in discussions, arguments and /or the pursuit of developing sports mental acuity as far as is possible?

:)

just rolled in from a looooong night down at ct.

and i wasn't down there debating racing theory.;)

nor did i feel very "intellectual" cursing double diamond machines in the casino afterwards!!:mad:

[misscashalot]

I start out every day by playing the first race on my puter, usually the double at NYRA, then go to OTB for the next 3 or 4 races and shmooze with my chums, then rtn home and finish the NYRA card and play SoCal on my puter. It's ritualistic.

[Robert Goren]

I have been playing off and on since the 60s. I have gone years without playing when the demands of my job wouldn't allow it. I am retired now and play almost every day when my health allows. I am very small better. I might make a $20 wager once a month. I am always looking for new angles that the public ignores. That is what keeps my interest in the game up. I make a little money most years, but never seriously considered it as living since college. There are better ways to live than spending your entire life pouring over Racing Forms. There is a big wonderful world out there, enjoy it while you can. The life of a gambler is a lonely miserable often tragic one. At least that is the way I see it.

[Robert Goren]

About the the only place you will get anything resembling a intellectual discussion of horse racing is on this site.

[GaryG]

About the the only place you will get anything resembling a intellectual discussion of horse racing is on this site.Not to mention poetry, philosophy, history, statistical analysis, political science and other intellectual pursuits that have been discussed here. Overall, we are an intelligent, well educated and well read group. At least for a bunch of degenerate gamblers.

[Grits]

Not to mention poetry, philosophy, history, statistical analysis, political science and other intellectual pursuits that have been discussed here. Overall, we are an intelligent, well educated and well read group. At least for a bunch of degenerate gamblers.

Gary, the poll that sought the age of posters here on the board? Honey, it revealed we're old. Remember?

Reading your post, its good to know those of us who are over 40 are fully aware we still have neurons firing deep in the grey matter.

[Johnny V]

I have been playing off and on since the 60s. I have gone years without playing when the demands of my job wouldn't allow it. I am retired now and play almost every day when my health allows. I am very small better. I might make a $20 wager once a month. I am always looking for new angles that the public ignores. That is what keeps my interest in the game up. I make a little money most years, but never seriously considered it as living since college. There are better ways to live than spending your entire life pouring over Racing Forms. There is a big wonderful world out there, enjoy it while you can. The life of a gambler is a lonely miserable often tragic one. At least that is the way I see it.
Your attitude and approach is :ThmbUp: !!

[Handiman]

H.R. was my idiotic shorthand for Horse Racing.

Thanks for the responses. I have to admit, some of the most intelligent discussions concerning horse racing I have seen have been on this board. But the opposite is also true. The most inane conversations have appeared here also.

What I am reading here seems to back the thought that pigeon holing horse players is an impossible task. Somewhat opposed to the world of poker, where players generally are live players or mostly tournament players. There is the odd group that immerse themselves in both types of play. But that is just about it.

I would like to thank everybody for their thoughtful comments.

Handi:)

[DeanT]

Not that education is a great barometer for intelligence, but the HANA survey was pretty eye opening on who is dedicated to play the sport. The majority of the responders (about 600 in total) were players who play more than three times a week - those of us married to this sport. The education stats were as follows:

Less than high school diploma - 0.2%

High school diploma or equivalent - 7.4%

Some college/ associate degree/ trade school - 33.1%

Bachelor degree - 34.2%

Masters degree - 17.1%

Rest other or decline.

Once again, not a great measuring stick for smarts (being from a family where all of my relatives before me did not have a chance to go to school but were smart in their own way, makes me biased towards that), but some decent stats that we are not slot players!

[GaryG]

I may be in the minority as I never do any other kind of gambling, except football about 2 or 3 times a year. Seems like most play poker, blackjack or some other casino games.

[cnollfan]

I have a full-time job so horse racing is my primary hobby. I attend simulcasting and bet avidly most Saturdays, and dabble in simulcasting on Sundays. I have a pretty extensive horses-to-watch list. During the week I generally confine my online bets to those horses, as well as other races at that same track that day. If no alerts (or if the alert looks bad in the Form, and I mean really bad) I may skip a day, a/k/a "a day without sunshine," or may look at a favorite track or one with a nice carryover.

I also bet on sports, but that is secondary to horses. I occasionally play poker but do not casino game.

As for the horseplayer demographic, I am 54 and have a B.A.

[completebill]

About the the only place you will get anything resembling a intellectual discussion of horse racing is on this site.

Obviously you've never visited the Discussion Forums on the HTR website. Yes--there is serious and educated discussion to be found here, but there's also a lot of sheer drivel to wade through. Look at all the posts, for just one example, be people who absolutely will never bet a horse oming off a layoff of more than X (pick a number) days. Quite clearly they're 20 years behind the curve on handicapping realities.

Look, too, at the questions and discussions about buying/using various handicapping "systems". The old system sellers out of N.Y. still have fertile ground to work---many prospective buyers lurk on this very forum!!

[Grits]

Obviously you've never visited the Discussion Forums on the HTR website. Yes--there is serious and educated discussion to be found here, but there's also a lot of sheer drivel to wade through. Look at all the posts, for just one example, be people who absolutely will never bet a horse oming off a layoff of more than X (pick a number) days. Quite clearly they're 20 years behind the curve on handicapping realities.

Look, too, at the questions and discussions about buying/using various handicapping "systems". The old system sellers out of N.Y. still have fertile ground to work---many prospective buyers lurk on this very forum!!

And what can one do in order to change your mind, aside from begging you to stay?:faint: Members needed and all like that.

Look at all the posts, for just one example, be people who absolutely will never bet a horse oming off a layoff of more than X (pick a number) days. Quite clearly they're 20 years behind the curve on handicapping realities.

Was this the deal breaker? 'Cause this is some monumental stuff.;)

[Robert Goren]

Obviously you've never visited the Discussion Forums on the HTR website. Yes--there is serious and educated discussion to be found here, but there's also a lot of sheer drivel to wade through. Look at all the posts, for just one example, be people who absolutely will never bet a horse oming off a layoff of more than X (pick a number) days. Quite clearly they're 20 years behind the curve on handicapping realities.

Look, too, at the questions and discussions about buying/using various handicapping "systems". The old system sellers out of N.Y. still have fertile ground to work---many prospective buyers lurk on this very forum!!I am sure HTR has some very fine software and there are some discussions concerning it use. I just a problem with any thing that incorporates lengths behind at fractional points of a race. Not that it wouldn't work, if the published data was accurate. But since it is not, I have a lot of doubts. If they have a way to get even half way accurate data, I would like to know their source, because I haven't found one.

[PaceAdvantage]

Look, too, at the questions and discussions about buying/using various handicapping "systems". The old system sellers out of N.Y. still have fertile ground to work---many prospective buyers lurk on this very forum!!Be honest here...there aren't very many questions and discussions about buying/using "systems," especially as a percentage of the total horse racing posts.

[GARY Z]

Until the last few years, lengths lost(or won) have been based
on visual rather actual or accurate methods.

Several of the tracks(WO) utilize the "chicklets" method of
tracking the horses position during a race, and I think
this technology would help to give a more accurate measurement
than currently offered .

My understanding of the Sheet tech is reps from
Rag/Thorograph time the race from the point the gate opens
and then assign #'s to each horse based upon their positions during
the race, then factor running path, wind, and numerous other
criteria in assigning their final # to each horse's pp.

That said, the most important elements of the equation are the
physical condition of the horse and the trainer's intent.Many
races we handicap,(excluding Grade I's) in which a horse appears ready to win are actually used for conditioning for a future race found in
the condition book.

The fun and intellectual part of this game is being right or to an equal degree
learning from our mistakes, which ,when scoring, bolsters
our ego and sense of purpose.

The frustrating part of this game is being correct, watching a
Jock making all the wrong moves with the best horse,getting
negative results due to Steward's calls , or the ultimate
sinking feeling when you longshot special is the fav.

[thaskalos]

The frustrating part of this game is being correct, watching a
Jock making all the wrong moves with the best horse,getting
negative results due to Steward's calls , or the ultimate
sinking feeling when you longshot special is the fav. IMO, the most frustrating part of the game is when your best bets start finishing up the track, illogical longshots seem to dominate for no apparent reason, and all you can do is watch your eroding bankroll...while feeling like you are the dumbest horseplayer on the planet.

[Robert Goren]

To me the frustrating is what I call "the first shall be last and the last shall be first" race. Every horse I like runs way back and all the horses I couldn't see run in the money. It make me question everything I think I know about handicapping.

[bobphilo]

To me the frustrating is what I call "the first shall be last and the last shall be first" race. Every horse I like runs way back and all the horses I couldn't see run in the money. It make me question everything I think I know about handicapping.

Robert, I had a great physics professor in college who beautifully explained the the life philosophy of many of his collegues was that the world operated on rational laws and principles, and they would always be self-evident. When an example came along that violated these laws, they would be tempted to jump out the window, just like the stock brokers who found their financial theories that seemed to explain the economy so perfectly just before the great stock market crash and depression that followed in 1929.

Handicapping is itself an excercise in applied physics and biology, and I must confess that I sometimes hold myself to such unattainable goals. Then Chaos Theory came along that shows that the tiniest error in one's calculations or data, which we are all subject to, will often cause the your 1st choice to run last and and your last choice to run first. Charles Carrol devotes a chapter in his book, "Handicapping Speed" to the subject. While perfection is a worthy goal, don't make it your sole expectation.

To quote my favorite line from the film, The Hotel New Hampshire, "Keep passing the open windows."

Bob

[bisket]

when i'm scratching my head after a few races on a given day. its time to start looking at how the track is playing as far as a bias etc. beyond that just chalk it up to the nature of the game. your gonna get beat more than you'll have the winning ticket. the winning player still has the cojones to bet each race as if won the last one.