Davidowitz and Byk go at it over Zenyatta

[JustRalph]

You have to download and listen to Steve Byk and Davidowitz go at it over Zenyatta

Download it here:

At The Races Podcast site:

http://www.thoroughbredracingradionetwork.com/images/stories/audio/index.xml

Download the 2nd Hour and listen to it.....It is the file with the "B" on the end of it. You must use Explorer on the podcast page for some reason at least chrome doesn't work for me....???

The screaming starts at around 25 min mark, but Davidowitz starts at the top of the hour and Byk throws him off the air at about 32 minutes.........

It's good radio........

[JustRalph]

Byk makes his case in the segment after Davidowitz leaves the air.

Good stuff.......... and I am starting to wonder if Byk and Pace Advantage are not the same guy.........anybody ever seen them together ? :lol:

[cj]

They are not the same guy. One is much uglier than the other.

[bigmack]

At The Races Podcast site:

http://www.thoroughbredracingradionetwork.com/images/stories/audio/index.xml
Click on that link in Chrome; it'll blow your mind.

They are not the same guy. One is much uglier than the other.
Is Byk gonna stand for that?

[DeanT]

If only Dark Star was there.

Sorry, I can't help myself.

[Tom]

Wow. Guess I don't miss the show as much as I thought I did.
Byk gets really tiresome sometimes....and pathetic. And a JERK today!:ThmbDown::ThmbDown::ThmbDown:
Must have watched too much Joe Pine in his youth.


Steve, you proved yourself a rank amateur host today - high school level.
If I were Davidowitz, I would not come back on....what's the glory of appearing on a stinking internet-only excuse of a radio program with a big mouth host?

[chickenhead]

Cliffs notes:

SD: My opinion is based on what I've seen with my eyeballs, and I've seen enough to personally feel comfortable that I know what I see. And my opinion is she's the best older mare I've seen.

SB: Yeah well, you are duping people because your opinion sucks, and synthetics suck, and California horses suck, get off my f*cking show.

[098poi]

I actually really enjoy Steve and felt bad hearing him get so upset. When is this on now? I have Sirius but I thought they were off the air for a bit.

[PaceAdvantage]

Well, this ought to be fun...can't listen right now, but my entertainment for later is fully booked... :lol:

[bigmack]

Felt contrived on Byk's part. Almost as if he wanted to get riled irrespective of what SD said.

If you're going to host a show you'd best be able to handle yourself in a civil fashion. Fairly punk thing to do on-air.

Not a good highlight for Byk.

[DeanT]

Cliffs notes:

SD: My opinion is based on what I've seen with my eyeballs, and I've seen enough to personally feel comfortable that I know what I see. And my opinion is she's the best older mare I've seen.

SB: Yeah well, you are duping people because your opinion sucks, and synthetics suck, and California horses suck, get off my f*cking show.
That's about right. Brutal.

[Dahoss9698]

Wow. Guess I don't miss the show as much as I thought I did.
Byk gets really tiresome sometimes....and pathetic. And a JERK today!:ThmbDown::ThmbDown::ThmbDown:
Must have watched too much Joe Pine in his youth.


Steve, you proved yourself a rank amateur host today - high school level.
If I were Davidowitz, I would not come back on....what's the glory of appearing on a stinking internet-only excuse of a radio program with a big mouth host?

Steve is as good a guy as there is in this sport. He doesn't need me to defend him, especially against comments like this from a noted blowhard like yourself. But you couldn't be more wrong about him or how is he is and anyone that knows him will tell you the same thing.

[letswastemoney]

Byk is a great handicapper. If he thinks Davidowitz is duping people...I'm inclined to believe him!

[bigmack]

Steve is as good a guy as there is in this sport. He doesn't need me to defend him, especially against comments like this from a noted blowhard like yourself. But you couldn't be more wrong about him or how is he is and anyone that knows him will tell you the same thing.
He said he was a rank amateur and a jerk today. I back that opinion all day long. Did you hear the interview?

[miesque]

I agree with Tom/Chick/Dean. This is the first clip from that show I have listened to in 2 years and its always nice to get validation of any decision you make, even the immaterial ones.

[NTamm1215]

If someone compared catching St. Trinians to catching Winning Colors on my show I'd go 10x more ballistic than Steve Byk did.

NT

[Dahoss9698]

He said he was a rank amateur and a jerk today. I back that opinion all day long. Did you hear the interview?

He also said he was pathetic and put down his show. Did you read his post?

I did listen to the interview. Davidowitz acts like a guy who takes great offense to anyone questioning him. No wonder he didn't want to come here. Everytime Byk tried to talk, Davidowitz interrupted him and Davidowitz recycled the same arguement that has been going on for 9 months now.

I stand by what I said about Byk and I am glad he is saying what he is.

[bigmack]

I stand by what I said about Byk and I am glad he is saying what he is.
Tip top, so we agree.

He said what he said today and was a rank amateur and a jerk in how he said it. Not that he's not a decent enough fellow. We've all had moments.

[Dahoss9698]

Tip top, so we agree.

He said what he said today and was a rank amateur and a jerk in how he said it. Not that he's not a decent enough fellow. We've all had moments.

Nope, we don't agree.

[chickenhead]

Davidowitz interrupted him and Davidowitz recycled the same arguement that has been going on for 9 months now.

I stand by what I said about Byk and I am glad he is saying what he is.

Yes, thank God Byk had such a fresh, unique take on things, in contrast to D.. :lol:

Byks opinion has been stated hundreds of times by posters on this forum, with much greater eloquence to boot. Hell you've been a better spokesman for the position than he was, right there. Davidowitz's opinion is likewise just as tired -- tho he at least had a better version of it than most I read on here.

[bigmack]

Byks opinion has been stated hundreds of times by posters on this forum, with much greater eloquence to boot. Hell you've been a better spokesman for the position than he was, right there. Davidowitz's opinion is likewise just as tired -- tho he at least had a better version of it than most I read on here.
Boom. There it's been said.

DaHoss - Don't bother. You've said it all thrice in multiple threads.

[Dahoss9698]

Yes, thank God Byk had such a fresh, unique take on things, in contrast to D.. :lol:

Byks opinion has been stated hundreds of times by posters on this forum, with much greater eloquence to boot. Hell you've been a better spokesman for the position than he was, right there. Davidowitz's opinion is likewise just as tired -- tho he at least had a better version of it than most I read on here.

I agree, neither was saying anything new. But I got that Davidowitz seemed genuinely annoyed that Byk dared to question him. He was huffing and puffing whenever Byk tried to counter what he was saying. Like he just wanted to say his piece and have Byk agree and let it go.

[Dahoss9698]

Boom. There it's been said.

DaHoss - Don't bother. You've said it all thrice in multiple threads.

This isn't off topic. You're out of your league up here Junior. Back down to the minors.

[bigmack]

This isn't off topic. You're out of your league up here Junior. Back down to the minors.
:lol:

I'll let you get back to dissecting the interview to split hairs about civility.

Opinions about Z are a dime a dozen. Take yours for example. Is that what you mean about the major leagues?

That's some cerebral shit you got goin' on there :lol:

[letswastemoney]

I listened to it. Davidowitz is rude, especially that huge sigh he made. He also keeps interrupting Byk.

[chickenhead]

I agree, neither was saying anything new. But I got that Davidowitz seemed genuinely annoyed that Byk dared to question him. He was huffing and puffing whenever Byk tried to counter what he was saying. Like he just wanted to say his piece and have Byk agree and let it go.

of course, he stated multiple times it was his opinion, from his own eyes. That's the part people miss sometimes. If someone holds that opinion, wtf do you think you're going to argue with them about?

That's why he said "this is my opinion, I don't expect it to be yours". He's not looking to back it up, it's based on his experience and what he's seen. He can't back it up. It's not an opinion built to win arguments, it's just his honest opinion.

Some people might describe that as not fighting fair, because it leaves little to argue about. But it's not something that's going to be gotten to the bottom of, there is no great maths involved, it's all right there.

Opinions don't in fact have to be defensible. And they also aren't required to be persuasive. There is no precondition, no Opinion TOS anyone has to sign. I think Campbells Tomato soup is the best soup ever. You can yell at me all you want about facts and figures, sodium content, the goodness of Bean and Bacon or Chicken Noodle. I don't really care.

Subjective opinions aren't very persuasive or defensible. They aren't built to be. So here's a tip to Steve Byk: If you don't want to hear them, don't have someone on the show and ask for them.

[letswastemoney]

Cliffs notes:

SD: My opinion is based on what I've seen with my eyeballs, and I've seen enough to personally feel comfortable that I know what I see. And my opinion is she's the best older mare I've seen.

SB: Yeah well, you are duping people because your opinion sucks, and synthetics suck, and California horses suck, get off my f*cking show.
It wasn't close to being like this.

[Dahoss9698]

:lol:

I'll let you get back to dissecting the interview to split hairs about civility.

Opinions about Z are a dime a dozen. Take yours for example. Is that what you mean about the major leagues?

That's some cerebral shit you got goin' on there :lol:

I get it. So I was just supposed to fall in line with the theme of the thread? Sorry, I don't agree with what was said and feel Byk was getting a raw deal from some here.

Of course it all boils down to Zenyatta. If the conversation were about another horse and the same people had it, I'd bet the same things would not have been said. God forbid anyone question the Queen.

[Dahoss9698]

Subjective opinions aren't very persuasive or defensible. They aren't built to be. So here's a tip to Steve Byk: If you don't want to hear them, don't have someone on the show and ask for them.

The same can be said for Davidowitz. If he wants to just say his opinion and have no one question it because of who he is, fine. Then don't go on shows and give it. Give it out on whatever website you are promoting and disable all comments.

Methinks Davidowitz needs a thicker skin if he is going to come off with his all time comments.

[exactatom]

Byk had an opinion, stated why he felt that way and did it with a passion that few in the media have for this sport. Without passion from those who spread the word to the masses, this sport will not grow and eventually die.

[shouldacoulda]

Wow, a little Zenyatta-itis going on there.

[bigmack]

Byk goes postal and you have comments like:


- Methinks Davidowitz needs a thicker skin if he is going to come off with his all time comments.

- Byk had an opinion, stated why he felt that way and did it with a passion that few in the media have for this sport.

- Byk is a great handicapper. If he thinks Davidowitz is duping people...I'm inclined to believe him!

And my favorite:

I listened to it. Davidowitz is rude, especially that huge sigh he made. A sigh! :lol:

One big pitcher of Byk Flavored Kool-Aid for these boys.

http://static.rcgroups.com/forums/attachments/1/2/8/5/2/9/a2492264-92-Kool-Aid%20Man.jpg

[Dahoss9698]

Now he went postal? Can we be a little more overdramatic?

[JustRalph]

Cliffs notes:

SD: My opinion is based on what I've seen with my eyeballs, and I've seen enough to personally feel comfortable that I know what I see. And my opinion is she's the best older mare I've seen.

SB: Yeah well, you are duping people because your opinion sucks, and synthetics suck, and California horses suck, get off my f*cking show.

Um....you must have downloaded something I didn't...... I didn't hear that?

I think the underlying theme is the problem. When Byk said that Davidowitz is anointing her, and then provided him with the opposite argument, or at least some valid questions, it went to a whole new level.

I think Davidowitz was a little perturbed that his anointment wasn't enough to convince Byk and I think Davidowitz is one of those guys on a perch in this game, and Byk wasn't buying what was coming down from that perch, this time anyway.

As a big fan of talk radio since I was a kid, I can tell you it might have been the best piece of radio I have ever heard when it comes to racing. Two war horses disagreeing like this in public on the airwaves is rare in this game as far I as I can tell. You can listen to racing radio in California and other places, but this, It never happens. Too many people being too polite to disagree. Even on the TV end. The Radio end of these types of discussions is usually boring. It lacks the normal day to day drama that other sports have. This was like Ditka and Jaws arguing over an NFL game. This was Kenny Rogers pushing down a Camera man. We don't have that in our sport, and maybe we need a little more of it. I enjoyed it. It was good radio anyway.

[the little guy]

I thought it was great entertainment and agree that nobody should apologize for being passionate...especially about this game.

I know both guys pretty well. Davidowitz has a great opinion, whether you agree with him or not, and he certainly has earned the right to express it. I remember doing a Siro's show with him one year, and mocking one opinion of his after another, and then watched his opinions make a complete ass of me....one after another. I don't particularly agree with his opinion in this case....but so what....much like that day at Siro's I would be far from shocked if given an opportunity his opinion would probably prove better than mine.

Steve Byk is a great advocate of horse racing, a true friend of the game, that delivers top notch guests on a daily basis to racing fans. Certainly he doesn't deserve the derision of people here just because they may not agree with his position, or how he delivered it, today. At a time when this game struggles for exposure, he does more ( much more ) than any one man ( or woman ) could be reasonably expected to do. Just because some of you don't agree with how he handled the interview today doesn't make it fair to callously dismiss him.

If racing could get more heated discussions on the airways perhaps people would really begin to take notice.

[JustRalph]

Damn it.......Andy... I was editing my post........and you come off with half my schtick!!! :lol:

[the little guy]

Damn it.......Andy... I was editing my post........and you come off with half my schtick!!! :lol:

Mediocre minds think alike.

[Grits]

One listens and feels SHOCK RADIO and RAW have come to thoroughbred racing--we've arrived--all in the span of 30 minutes or less.

Holy sh!t . . . . what an exchange.:faint:

[chickenhead]

I'll just say for the record that I don't know either guy, and while I never listen to his show, I have had positive dealings with Steve Byk in the past, and I found him to be a generous guy. So I don't have any personal enmity towards him at all.

Any criticism about his handling of a guest here, is circumscribed to exactly that.

[Dahoss9698]

I think the underlying theme is the problem. When Byk said that Davidowitz is anointing her, and then provided him with the opposite argument, or at least some valid questions, it went to a whole new level.

I think Davidowitz was a little perturbed that his anointment wasn't enough to convince Byk and I think Davidowitz is one of those guys on a perch in this game, and Byk wasn't buying what was coming down from that perch, this time anyway.



I just listened again and I think you have it summed up pretty well. As soon as Byk began to present the other side, Davidowitz says, "I don't care." That was essentially the beginning of the end.

[bigmack]

I think Byk is the aces. Seems to work his keister off on that show.

SD brought up RA and that's when he went, shall we say, over the top?

Heated discussions are one thing. That one lacked civility.

[WinterTriangle]

Without passion from those who spread the word to the masses

I separate the blow-hard from the truly passionate man.

In a (bored) society which has an unquenchable need to be "entertained", making that distinction is vital.


If racing could get more heated discussions on the airways perhaps people would really begin to take notice.

Actually, many will tune out, and opt for measured, informative discussions.


While bravado plays well to ratings and advertising dollars that the media desperately needs to stay afloat, the most passionate people are not usually the loudest. (It's a style that has enjoyed some recent success, but people have wearied of it. Too much noise-to-signal.)

Confidence in a deeply-held conviction does not need a mega-phone.

The loud ones who go to great lengths to take a position they feel a duty to protect always come off as rather desperate. :)

Whether one agrees with his position or not, IMHO, Byk fell down in the "delivery" department today. I don't agree with tossing out delivery as one of the tenets of good discussion.

[Stillriledup]

Nice setup, they're probably sharing a beer after the show and laughing about how you all think that was real. Great for ratings, this is what people do to get other people to notice their program. Well done guys, you duped the entire PA community.

[PaceAdvantage]

It is clear from listening that Davidowitz wanted no part of Byk's talking points once Davidowitz finished delivering his sermon. As soon as Byk started making some counter points (WELL BEFORE Byk becomes "animated"), you could hear in Davidowitz's voice clear exasperation (including the huge sigh) as well as a completely dismissive tone towards anything Byk was about to say, even before he says it...

Neither of these guys earns points for style on this one, but it was pretty good radio as far as racing is concerned.

[PaceAdvantage]

Nice setup, they're probably sharing a beer after the show and laughing about how you all think that was real. Great for ratings, this is what people do to get other people to notice their program. Well done guys, you duped the entire PA community.Davidowitz wasn't faking anything...

[gm10]

SD stayed more polite than I could have managed. He was dealing with the same limited mind as the ones that show up on a daily basis. Those two were having the conversation that we are having here every day. Byk is ridiculous comparing Zenyatta to Lava Man and endless repeating that she hasn't done enough on dirt. Byk is a total loser on the basis of this interview.

[andymays]

I love it. :ThmbUp:

Synthetic surfaces are at the root of the problem. Byk believes like myself and many others that we are seeing an inferior product on sythetic surfaces and that synthetics are not a legitimate surface to run our best races over. I think he also feels that Zenyatta should be racing against the best (like Goldikova) afer her Classic win over the Pro Ride and I agree.

I think both guys gave an pretty accurate representation of both sides in this contentious debate.

Davidowitz likes to be the final word on all things Horse Racing and he loses it whenever someone contradicts whatever he says. You could feel this dust up coming and I'm glad it happened. I think he was probably surprised that Byk went off on him. I'm surprised Byk went off to that extent but I'm glad he did and it was good radio.

Anyway this can all be put to rest with a trip to New York and a trip to Churchill for the Breeders' Cup Classic. ;)

Stay tuned! :ThmbUp:

[LottaKash]

I love it. :ThmbUp:

I think both guys gave an pretty accurate representation of both sides in this contentious debate.

Davidowitz likes to be the final word on all things Horse Racing and he loses it whenever someone contradicts whatever he says. You could feel this dust up coming and I'm glad it happened. I think he was probably surprised that Byk went off on him. I'm surprised Byk went off to that extent but I'm glad he did and it was good radio.

Stay tuned! :ThmbUp:

I couldn't agree more Andy...:ThmbUp:

I simply enjoyed the heck out of that show....

It was highly reminescent of the "racetrack crew" that I travelled around with from the mid 60's thru the 80's....You had to be a very thick skinned individual if you wanted to continue on with that gang...

We would get into all sorts of conflicts over some pretty stupid and petty debates, and often on the ride home, half of us wouldn't even talk to the other half (except for the winner(s) on the day,they would talk to everyone), until the "next day", when we'd be off again to take on next day's daily double and such, and without a further word, you just knew that all was forgiven.....

It was the friendship, the passion, and adrnealine rushes, of, and for the game that we all shared, and that was the most important thing of it all....

Heck, I see the same thing as "Byk and Davidowitz", right here at PA, and many times I can just feel that same heat and passion, all the time....Hooray for that...:jump:

It is a good thing to have PA these days, as I suppose, this is the neo-replacement part to the "olden days" of the long gone comaraderie of going to the track with each other....

I am always looking forward to the constant bickering and one upmanships around here...It is a very healthy outlet, as I see it...And, it probably keeps us from kicking the dog down the stairs, at times....:D

As for "those two", I believe that they will kiss and makeup after awhile, as, after all, there are only so many venues to do "their things"....They, just as we, need each other...

best,

[Indulto]

I thought it was great entertainment and agree that nobody should apologize for being passionate...especially about this game.

I know both guys pretty well. Davidowitz has a great opinion, whether you agree with him or not, and he certainly has earned the right to express it. I remember doing a Siro's show with him one year, and mocking one opinion of his after another, and then watched his opinions make a complete ass of me....one after another. I don't particularly agree with his opinion in this case....but so what....much like that day at Siro's I would be far from shocked if given an opportunity his opinion would probably prove better than mine.

Steve Byk is a great advocate of horse racing, a true friend of the game, that delivers top notch guests on a daily basis to racing fans. Certainly he doesn't deserve the derision of people here just because they may not agree with his position, or how he delivered it, today. At a time when this game struggles for exposure, he does more ( much more ) than any one man ( or woman ) could be reasonably expected to do. Just because some of you don't agree with how he handled the interview today doesn't make it fair to callously dismiss him.

If racing could get more heated discussions on the airways perhaps people would really begin to take notice.Passion and lack of professionalism are two different things. Temporary insanity is what gets cars keyed. I enjoyed the show just now after being tipped off by this thread. It reminded me of the show where you sounded as if you were ready to throttle Bob Fox, but hadn't lost it completely. That WAS good radio.

[Tom]

Well, this has been entertaining!:eek:

I have long supported Byk and his show.....just thought he did himself a disservice yesterday. Maybe he will cut Davidowitz's pay from here on in.

[Kimsus]

I thought it was great entertainment and agree that nobody should apologize for being passionate...especially about this game.

I know both guys pretty well. Davidowitz has a great opinion, whether you agree with him or not, and he certainly has earned the right to express it. I remember doing a Siro's show with him one year, and mocking one opinion of his after another, and then watched his opinions make a complete ass of me....one after another. I don't particularly agree with his opinion in this case....but so what....much like that day at Siro's I would be far from shocked if given an opportunity his opinion would probably prove better than mine.

Steve Byk is a great advocate of horse racing, a true friend of the game, that delivers top notch guests on a daily basis to racing fans. Certainly he doesn't deserve the derision of people here just because they may not agree with his position, or how he delivered it, today. At a time when this game struggles for exposure, he does more ( much more ) than any one man ( or woman ) could be reasonably expected to do. Just because some of you don't agree with how he handled the interview today doesn't make it fair to callously dismiss him.

If racing could get more heated discussions on the airways perhaps people would really begin to take notice.

I'm not in the habit of throwing compliments around but this was well stated.

Thank you.

[gm10]

I thought it was great entertainment and agree that nobody should apologize for being passionate...especially about this game.

I know both guys pretty well. Davidowitz has a great opinion, whether you agree with him or not, and he certainly has earned the right to express it. I remember doing a Siro's show with him one year, and mocking one opinion of his after another, and then watched his opinions make a complete ass of me....one after another. I don't particularly agree with his opinion in this case....but so what....much like that day at Siro's I would be far from shocked if given an opportunity his opinion would probably prove better than mine.

Steve Byk is a great advocate of horse racing, a true friend of the game, that delivers top notch guests on a daily basis to racing fans. Certainly he doesn't deserve the derision of people here just because they may not agree with his position, or how he delivered it, today. At a time when this game struggles for exposure, he does more ( much more ) than any one man ( or woman ) could be reasonably expected to do. Just because some of you don't agree with how he handled the interview today doesn't make it fair to callously dismiss him.

If racing could get more heated discussions on the airways perhaps people would really begin to take notice.

Not sure about the last statement. Right now they think we are crazy but harmless. But when the innocent, crazy guys start fighting, they'll become worried ;) .

[5k-claim]

If the two participants are cool with it, and if an occasional careening off the road into Jerry Springer territory is good radio, then who am I to see any harm in it? If that is what people want to listen to, then that is why they have so many different stations.

Personally, I reacted to hearing the host's yelling the way I react to yelling in real life- a little bit goes a long way, and I lose interest pretty quick. By the time the host finally got around to his "This is crap!" line, I was happy to take that invitation to shut it off.

The most important thing to me is that the host is a good guy with a passion for the game and a number satisfied listeners with a chance to get more. Sounds like a plan!


.

[andymays]

Paulick to the Rescue! Guess who's side he's on? ;)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BYK DISSES ZENYATTA

http://www.paulickreport.com/blog/byk-disses-zenyatta/

Excerpt:

Davidowitz spoke glowingly of Zenyatta’s victory in Sunday’s Vanity Handicap at Hollywood Park, though stopped short of saying he would bet her to beat top 4-year-old colt Quality Road in a head-to-head matchup. “There’s a very unusual dimension to her, and there are to all great horses,” said Davidowitz, the author of the recently revised handicapping Bible, “Betting Thoroughbreds for the 21st Century.” “They have something different.”

Byk wasn’t buying it, and as Davidowitz continued to sing the praises of Zenyatta, the radio host lost his cool, constantly interrupting Davidowitz and finally shouting at him. “The horse is three inches away from being Best Pal,” Byk shouted. “She’s about two inches away from being Best Pal or Lava Man. She’s been confined to California for her entire career. …You seem to think this is the greatest racehorse of all time. It’s laughable.”

[gm10]

Paulick to the Rescue! Guess who's side he's on? ;)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BYK DISSES ZENYATTA

http://www.paulickreport.com/blog/byk-disses-zenyatta/

Excerpt:

Davidowitz spoke glowingly of Zenyatta’s victory in Sunday’s Vanity Handicap at Hollywood Park, though stopped short of saying he would bet her to beat top 4-year-old colt Quality Road in a head-to-head matchup. “There’s a very unusual dimension to her, and there are to all great horses,” said Davidowitz, the author of the recently revised handicapping Bible, “Betting Thoroughbreds for the 21st Century.” “They have something different.”

Byk wasn’t buying it, and as Davidowitz continued to sing the praises of Zenyatta, the radio host lost his cool, constantly interrupting Davidowitz and finally shouting at him. “The horse is three inches away from being Best Pal,” Byk shouted. “She’s about two inches away from being Best Pal or Lava Man. She’s been confined to California for her entire career. …You seem to think this is the greatest racehorse of all time. It’s laughable.”

I think some racing 'fans' are losing a bit of their sanity when every race that she wins. To compare her with Lava Man is simply beyond laughable. As good as Lava Man was on his day, he was beaten at Santa Anita, Hollywood, Del Mar, Bay Meadows, Fairplex, Santa Rosa and Stockton.

[andymays]

I think some racing 'fans' are losing a bit of their sanity when every race that she wins. To compare her with Lava Man is simply beyond laughable. As good as Lava Man was on his day, he was beaten at Santa Anita, Hollywood, Del Mar, Bay Meadows, Fairplex, Santa Rosa and Stockton.


You see, people like myself think the same thing but about people like yourself who are willing to excuse the Zenyatta camp for not racing against the best out there. Goldikova gets it done so why can's Zenyatta go for it.

Again, synthetic surfaces are at the root of the problem. Byk believes like
myself and many others that we are seeing an inferior product on sythetic
surfaces and that synthetics are not a legitimate surface to run our best
races over.

Get it done against the best on dirt and everyone will bow!

Until then she will always be considered a great mare in history. Do the conncetions want more than just a perfect record? If so they know what they need to do.

[Tom]

Too bad Easy Goer retired.......we could have some fun dissing his anemic record outside NY.

[FenceBored]

I think some racing 'fans' are losing a bit of their sanity when every race that she wins. To compare her with Lava Man is simply beyond laughable. As good as Lava Man was on his day, he was beaten at Santa Anita, Hollywood, Del Mar, Bay Meadows, Fairplex, Santa Rosa and Stockton.

The Lava Man and Best Pal examples were to illustrate the regional nature of Zenyatta's campaigns ("Apple Blossom, Apple Blossom"), not to say that her competitive level is the same as these horses.

[FenceBored]

Too bad Easy Goer retired.......we could have some fun dissing his anemic record outside NY.

Which maybe is why there's no stakes races named for him (http://www.horseraceinsider.com/blog.php/zasts-fastwords/2010-06-16honoring-easy-goer/)?
<ducks and runs>

[kenwoodall2]

I've heard of prep races! TVG hosts, then SB vs SD sounds like warmups for the webcast on the 22nd of FS vs CHRB! Maybe horsemen or horse analysts will make racing a contact sport, on the sidelines, anyway! :jump: I love it!! I believe anyone can have an opinion as long as I beleive my opinion is fact! :cool:

[docicu3]

Cliffs notes:

SD: My opinion is based on what I've seen with my eyeballs, and I've seen enough to personally feel comfortable that I know what I see. And my opinion is she's the best older mare I've seen.

SB: Yeah well, you are duping people because your opinion sucks, and synthetics suck, and California horses suck, get off my f*cking show

This needs to be recanted as fiction as Byk never said this quote which clearly is here to make Steve seem like an out of control psycho. If anyone has this quote on tape put it up otherwise Byk deserves an apology.

Having said such and honestly disclosing my bias which includes an appreciation for a guy who does 15 hours a week of the best racing information found anywhere I offer a few facts that as of now I have not read in this thread.

1) SD has been the beneficiary of Byk's kindness which has offered him a weekly 30-60 minute commercial to sell his books and opinions for the better part of a year. To belittle Byk's opinion repetitively until he got the reaction he did was a distasteful abuse of the time SD is afforded to sell his wares his livelihood depends on.

2) Byk has been under extraordinary pressure these last few weeks as ATR, this project of about 5-6 years which is the most consistent reservoir of free access to the game, has suddenly been jeapordized by the suits of satellite who want this product for their own commercial gain while compensation for his efforts makes Byk's hourly wage competitive with minimum wage.

The game will lose the best media vehicle of support it has if Byk is unsuccessful landing another time slot for his show but to his credit he has refused to give in to Sirius and have all of us pay for it insisting that it remain free for live streaming.

If you want to berate this guy with fictitious quotes and stern criticism of his conversational efforts have a great time finding someone who does it better anywhere, anytime for an hour a week never mind the 15 hours a week 50 weeks a year Byk does this show for all of you to benefit from.

[Dahoss9698]

Byk is a total loser on the basis of this interview.

Jealous much?

[egreen]

If you are going to invite someone on your radio show - or in your home or anywhere else - you should treat them with respect. Byk doesn't have to agree with Dvidowitz, but verbally assaulting the guy because of a difference of opinion is inexcusable. If all that windbag Byk wants to do is express his own opinion, then there is no reason to have guests.

[chickenhead]

Cliffs notes:

SD: My opinion is based on what I've seen with my eyeballs, and I've seen enough to personally feel comfortable that I know what I see. And my opinion is she's the best older mare I've seen.

SB: Yeah well, you are duping people because your opinion sucks, and synthetics suck, and California horses suck, get off my f*cking show

This needs to be recanted as fiction as Byk never said this quote which clearly is here to make Steve seem like an out of control psycho. If anyone has this quote on tape put it up otherwise Byk deserves an apology.

.....

If you want to berate this guy with fictitious quotes and stern criticism of his efforts have a great time finding someone who does it better anywhere, anytime for an hour a week never mind the 15 hours a week 50 weeks a year Byk does this show for all of you to benefit from.

They aren't quotes, obviously. I thought that was obvious from the "cliffs notes" comment, and the lack of quotation marks. So sorry, there is nothing to recant, or apologize for. I also don't remember berating him. So that's two things you've got wrong.

It seemed fairly clear to me that Byk thought synthetics warped the entire Zenyatta debate, that Zenyatta has not faced quality horses, and that Zenyatta has not earned the praise SD was giving her. Summarized best by Byk called the argument crap. My "cliffs note's version" implies exactly that, just a little more straight and to the point.

I don't think his opinion is off base, it's a perfectly valid opinion to have. Yeah, I felt he handled himself like a dick in that show. That's also a perfectly valid opinion to have. Deal with it.

[andymays]

If you are going to invite someone on your radio show - or in your home or anywhere else - you should treat them with respect. Byk doesn't have to agree with Dvidowitz, but verbally assaulting the guy because of a difference of opinion is inexcusable. If all that windbag Byk wants to do is express his own opinion, then there is no reason to have guests.
Someone out there can probably clear this up but it sounded to me like those two have had dust ups before. I know Davidowitz has always had a temper but I don't know about Byk.

I thought it was great.

Believe it or not this stuff is great for racing and could help set the stage for a big matchup down the road.

[Dahoss9698]

If you are going to invite someone on your radio show - or in your home or anywhere else - you should treat them with respect. Byk doesn't have to agree with Dvidowitz, but verbally assaulting the guy because of a difference of opinion is inexcusable. If all that windbag Byk wants to do is express his own opinion, then there is no reason to have guests.

Verbally assaulting? Byk never got a chance to give his opinion and if you actually listen to it, Davidowitz doesn't care about what Byk is trying to say. He even says "I don't care."

[Tom]

Believe it or not this stuff is great for racing and could help set the stage for a big matchup down the road.

Steve vs Steve, Wrestlemania? :D

[andymays]

Steve vs Steve, Wrestlemania? :D


I guarantee you that a lot of other radio shows are trying to book them both as we speak.

It will be a little ugly and even traumatic for some but in the end this could be the perfect storm that pulls racing out of it's funk. At least I hope so.

[Grits]

If one scrolls down and reads the comments following Paulick's piece, this does not bode well for Steve B. And that's a shame given his dedication to the sport.

After listening to the interview three times. For me, it wasn't entertaining, but too, I'm not a fan of elevated, in your face talk radio--which some of you indicate this was. Instead, it was like hearing a political debate between two candidates--the incumbent and the young, primary winner. The seasoned old incumbent didn't miss a beat, remaining calm throughout. The young primary winner, in his frustration came unglued.

Seth M. followed Davidowitz, opening with, "I'm scared." The discussion continued, with a calmer Byk.

Its not hard to disagree with Paulick's assertion of a "meltdown." The entire deal's unfortunate. Had this been a seminar or seated panel of guests, chairs would've been pushed back and somebody would've been ducking blows.

Not Steve B's finest hour.

[Grits]

1) SD has been the beneficiary of Byk's kindness which has offered him a weekly 30-60 minute commercial to sell his books and opinions for the better part of a year. To belittle Byk's opinion repetitively until he got the reaction he did was a distasteful abuse of the time SD is afforded to sell his wares his livelihood depends on.

You may have missed his drop in, here, the other evening to shill his upcoming new website. Somehow, the desire to defend his skill as a turfwriter and handicapping expert didn't seem of as great a need.

Jus' saying.:lol:

[Robert Fischer]

'Nap Serling got it right

entertainment...

heated discussions...


it was a little over-the-top and whiney, but most importantly RELEVANT(hence the 8page thread here on PA), more fun then acknowledging that Rachel has already shown her limitations, and that Zenyatta is running 8.5 furlong "training races" maybe until the Classic.

Pletcher has Quality Road improved. He could be tough to beat on dirt this year, even though he doesn't love a classic distance naturally. He's also strong enough to retire Rachel and force a perfect trip from Zenyatta.


Anyone who doesn't see that ZENYATTA is the best horse since Secretariat, is an IDIOT.

[Grits]

Robert, you had me until your last line.

Now, everything ya got goes out the window. The two horses don't even belong in the same hemisphere, much less the same sentence.

.
.
.
.

:faint: thud.

[andymays]

Robert, you had me until your last line.

Now, everything ya got goes out the window. The two horses don't even belong in the same hemisphere, much less the same sentence.

.
.
.
.

:faint: thud.


Seeeee. Now your'e thinking Byk made a good point???? :) ;) :D

[Grits]

Andy, indeed . . . he did. No doubt.

But, it was Lost In Translation.

[Robert Fischer]

Robert, you had me until your last line.

Now, everything ya got goes out the window. The two horses don't even belong in the same hemisphere, much less the same sentence.

.
.
.
.

:faint: thud.

BYE

TALK TO ME NEXT WEEK GRITS :mad::bang: ;);)

[andymays]

Andy, indeed . . . he did. No doubt.

But, it was Lost In Translation.

I honestly think Byk's response was a preemptive strike before Davidowitz blew his stack. I'll bet they've gotten into it before. It sounded like they both knew where it was going. ;)

[gm10]

You see, people like myself think the same thing but about people like yourself who are willing to excuse the Zenyatta camp for not racing against the best out there. Goldikova gets it done so why can's Zenyatta go for it.

Again, synthetic surfaces are at the root of the problem. Byk believes like
myself and many others that we are seeing an inferior product on sythetic
surfaces and that synthetics are not a legitimate surface to run our best
races over.

Get it done against the best on dirt and everyone will bow!

Until then she will always be considered a great mare in history. Do the conncetions want more than just a perfect record? If so they know what they need to do.

It is very simple. There is no such thing as a 'legitimate' surface. A horse race is won by a horse who beats the other horses. To do this 17 times in a row, sometimes under impossible circumstances, sometimes against great opposition is simply sensational. No other horse has ever done this. To reduce this achievement to a certain suitability for a surface is simply stupid. It reveals a total lack of understanding of what a horse race actually is. Furthermore, given that you know that she actually beat a DIRT Breeders Cup winner on DIRT, I think you are not stupid, just very conservative and loyal to the past.

[DeanT]

Andy,

If Charles Manson came out and said that he did not like plastic racing I have a sneaky feeling you'd want to pardon him.

:)

[andymays]

It is very simple. There is no such thing as a 'legitimate' surface. A horse race is won by a horse who beats the other horses. To do this 17 times in a row, sometimes under impossible circumstances, sometimes against great opposition is simply sensational. No other horse has ever done this. To reduce this achievement to a certain suitability for a surface is simply stupid. It reveals a total lack of understanding of what a horse race actually is. Furthermore, given that you know that she actually beat a DIRT Breeders Cup winner on DIRT, I think you are not stupid, just very conservative and loyal to the past.


Yes, I'm a traditionalist who believes synthetic surfaces are bad for racing in the United States. These junk surfaces have hurt the road to the Triple Crown and the race for HOY. They are in my opinion the biggest fraud ever in Horse Racing in the United States.

[andymays]

Andy,

If Charles Manson came out and said that he did not like plastic racing I have a sneaky feeling you'd want to pardon him.

:)


Synthetics are at the heart of the Rachel/Zenyatta/HOY/ disputes. You can't deny it. ;)

As far as Charlie goes I think he'll rot in hell as he deserves to.

[Robert Fischer]

These junk surfaces have hurt the road to the Triple Crown and the race for HOY.

No they haven't.

[andymays]

No they haven't.
Yes they have. ;)

Synthetic surfaces are becoming less relevant on a daily basis. With no Breeders Cup on them for at least two years and no Triple Crown race on them they will continue to lose relevance in this county. And deservedly so.

[Robert Fischer]

Objectively or Subjectively?

[andymays]

Objectively or Subjectively?

We have enough threads about synthetics. My point is in the context of the Zenyatta debate and the dust up between Byk and Davidowitz.

Probably my fault for taking the thread off topic a little.

[Robert Fischer]

BYE TALK TO ME NEXT WEEK ANDY :mad:

[Spalding No!]

A horse race is won by a horse who beats the other horses. To do this 17 times in a row, sometimes under impossible circumstances, sometimes against great opposition is simply sensational. No other horse has ever done this.

I'd love to know which races on Zenyatta's resume were run under impossible circumstances.

[PaceAdvantage]

You may have missed his drop in, here, the other evening to shill his upcoming new website.Technically, Steve Davidowitz has not posted here. He did register an account, but what you read was something he sent via email to Classhandicapper, which was then republished here at PA by Classhandicapper.

Just putting that on the record.

[PaceAdvantage]

Probably my fault for taking the thread off topic a little.Thanks...now let's get back on topic...

[Robert Fischer]

I'd love to know which races on Zenyatta's resume were run under impossible circumstances.

I think that is a very fair question, and I'm a Zenyatta for Alpha Female guy.

[gm10]

I'd love to know which races on Zenyatta's resume were run under impossible circumstances.

I think if last Sunday's race would have been in-running on Betfair, St Trinians would have been 1.05 or something. There's a reason why you only see that type of Personal Esign performance once a decade ... it's nearly impossible to pull off. And St Trinians ... no ordinary horse. Definitely one of the better females around.

[gm10]

Yes they have. ;)

Synthetic surfaces are becoming less relevant on a daily basis. With no Breeders Cup on them for at least two years and no Triple Crown race on them they will continue to lose relevance in this county. And deservedly so.

I saw a synthetic exacta in the Oaks and a synthetic winner in the Preakness. I wouldn't take a big stand against synthetic horses in the BC either. Your claim is premature to say the least.

[carlonr]

I love it. :ThmbUp:

Synthetic surfaces are at the root of the problem. Byk believes like myself and many others that we are seeing an inferior product on sythetic surfaces and that synthetics are not a legitimate surface to run our best races over. I think he also feels that Zenyatta should be racing against the best (like Goldikova) afer her Classic win over the Pro Ride and I agree.

I think both guys gave an pretty accurate representation of both sides in this contentious debate.

Davidowitz likes to be the final word on all things Horse Racing and he loses it whenever someone contradicts whatever he says. You could feel this dust up coming and I'm glad it happened. I think he was probably surprised that Byk went off on him. I'm surprised Byk went off to that extent but I'm glad he did and it was good radio.

Anyway this can all be put to rest with a trip to New York and a trip to Churchill for the Breeders' Cup Classic. ;)

Stay tuned! :ThmbUp:

I wish that were true Andy, but I have the feeling that if Zenyatta, were to run at Saratoga and win, then run in the Breeders Cup classic and win, we would then get the "only 4 dirt wins and 15 synthetic wins argument". From my perspective, and again it is only my opinion, people are starting to see the greatness of a "poly horse" and are stacking the deck so no matter what Zenyatta does it will never be enough. Personally, I don't think she should have to run in New York. If Zenyatta wins the BCC this year @ Churchill, that would be back to back BCC wins against males on two different surfaces. Unprecedented historically. But I see the opposition preparing in advance to discount such a feat! I would love to hear just one anti-synthetic advocate say that a BCC win @ Churchill would be enough to remove any doubt about her greatness!

[Spalding No!]

I think if last Sunday's race would have been in-running on Betfair, St Trinians would have been 1.05 or something. There's a reason why you only see that type of Personal Esign performance once a decade ... it's nearly impossible to pull off. And St Trinians ... no ordinary horse. Definitely one of the better females around.

So the 2010 Vanity was run under impossible conditions? Aside from this sudden fad of comparing St. Trinians to Winning Colors, in what way did the race set up as an "impossible" task?

Wasn't Zenyatta always within 3 lengths of St. Trinians (who was further off the pace than usual) throughout the race?

Beyond the 2010 Vanity are there any other impossible races? Or were you just embellishing?

[Robert Fischer]

So the 2010 Vanity was run under impossible conditions? Aside from this sudden fad of comparing St. Trinians to Winning Colors, in what way did the race set up as an "impossible" task?

Wasn't Zenyatta always within 3 lengths of St. Trinians (who was further off the pace than usual) throughout the race?

Beyond the 2010 Vanity are there any other impossible races? Or were you just embellishing?

Not only did they fail to slow the race to a crawl against a much better 1-run closer with a strong and probably unwilling to adapt running style preference,

the Vanity helped Zenyatta's chances should she run another 8.5furlong race in the Clement Hirsch, because now St Trinian is "too good" to run a 25,50,1:15 6furlongs... and on top of thathas a jockey whom no sensible trainer would risk a stakes placing by asking to actually rate a horse.

[gm10]

So the 2010 Vanity was run under impossible conditions? Aside from this sudden fad of comparing St. Trinians to Winning Colors, in what way did the race set up as an "impossible" task?

Wasn't Zenyatta always within 3 lengths of St. Trinians (who was further off the pace than usual) throughout the race?

Beyond the 2010 Vanity are there any other impossible races? Or were you just embellishing?

Did you fail to notice that Zenyatta was about 8 wide and carrying 9 lbs more than the horse who is so average that she was the favourite in the SA Handicap?

And did you also not see the Breeders Cup Classic. That was a legendary effort. To make up that much ground against classy horses such as Gio Ponti and Twice Over is simply unique. It was impossible, frankly.

Vic Stauffer called it 3.5 lengths at some point, it was probably more like 4. It wasn't a good point to begin with, and you couldn't even get it across right.

[Spalding No!]

Not only did they fail to slow the race to a crawl against a much better 1-run closer with a strong and probably unwilling to adapt running style preference,

the Vanity helped Zenyatta's chances should she run another 8.5furlong race in the Clement Hirsch, because now St Trinian is "too good" to run a 25,50,1:15 6furlongs... and on top of thathas a jockey whom no sensible trainer would risk a stakes placing by asking to actually rate a horse.

As much praise as Martin Garcia got for the ride, I was disappointed he didn't employ the mare's tactical speed in that race. Perhaps he knew before hand that Miss Silver Brook and Cherryblossommiss planned to go at it right out of the gate for some reason (for all the cynics out there, John Sadler also trains for the Mosses).

I thought he had a great chance at forcing Mike Smith to move early or face having too much to do down the lane.

Not sure where this "you only see horses make up 2 lengths down the lane once a decade" BS comes in, I'm pretty sure Lookin At Lucky's Rebel effort was more "impossible" than this race.

[Dahoss9698]

Did you fail to notice that Zenyatta was about 8 wide and carrying 9 lbs more than the horse who is so average that she was the favourite in the SA Handicap?

And did you also not see the Breeders Cup Classic. That was a legendary effort. To make up that much ground against classy horses such as Gio Ponti and Twice Over is simply unique. It was impossible, frankly.

Vic Stauffer called it 3.5 lengths at some point, it was probably more like 4. It wasn't a good point to begin with, and you couldn't even get it across right.

No wonder no one is paying for opinions like this.

[Spalding No!]

Did you fail to notice that Zenyatta was about 8 wide and carrying 9 lbs more than the horse who is so average that she was the favourite in the SA Handicap?

No. I also noticed St. Trinians was 7 wide.

Oh, and I also noticed St. Trinians running 6th in the SA Handicap.

And did you also not see the Breeders Cup Classic. That was a legendary effort. To make up that much ground against classy horses such as Gio Ponti and Twice Over is simply unique. It was impossible, frankly.

Making up ground on Gio Ponti is unique?

Interpretation and Winchester are thanking you and now pointing to the BC Classic.

Vic Stauffer called it 3.5 lengths at some point, it was probably more like 4. It wasn't a good point to begin with, and you couldn't even get it across right.

Yes it was hard to understand that St. Trinians was never more than 3 lengths in front of Zenyatta throughout the race. I guess the difference between 3 and 4 lengths is the difference between normal and hurculean.

But if Vic Stauffer said otherwise, we'll go with his observation.

After all, he's the one responsible for St. Trinians most notable achievement:

Post-time favorite for the 2010 Big Cap.

[gm10]

As much praise as Martin Garcia got for the ride, I was disappointed he didn't employ the mare's tactical speed in that race. Perhaps he knew before hand that Miss Silver Brook and Cherryblossommiss planned to go at it right out of the gate for some reason (for all the cynics out there, John Sadler also trains for the Mosses).

I thought he had a great chance at forcing Mike Smith to move early or face having too much to do down the lane.

Not sure where this "you only see horses make up 2 lengths down the lane once a decade" BS comes in, I'm pretty sure Lookin At Lucky's Rebel effort was more "impossible" than this race.

They were carrying the same weight but it was in fact a pretty heroic effort. Nobody here is knocking Lookin at Lucky.

[gm10]

No. I also noticed St. Trinians was 7 wide.


No she wasn't.

Oh, and I also noticed St. Trinians running 6th in the SA Handicap.



She didn't get the run of the race and she didn't deliver. So what, it happens.

Making up ground on Gio Ponti is unique?

Interpretation and Winchester are thanking you and now pointing to the BC Classic.

Don't waste my time. That is patently not what I said.



Yes it was hard to understand that St. Trinians was never more than 3 lengths in front of Zenyatta throughout the race. I guess the difference between 3 and 4 lengths is the difference between normal and hurculean.

But if Vic Stauffer said otherwise, we'll go with his observation.

After all, he's the one responsible for St. Trinians most notable achievement:

Post-time favorite for the 2010 Big Cap.

I'll stick with beating a Breeders Cup winner in a graded stakes for now.

[FenceBored]

I saw a synthetic exacta in the Oaks and a synthetic winner in the Preakness. I wouldn't take a big stand against synthetic horses in the BC either. Your claim is premature to say the least.

That's funny. I saw that the winner of the Oaks and the winner of the Preakness had both made their last start on dirt. Just a little difference in perspective. ;)

[gm10]

That's funny. I saw that the winner of the Oaks and the winner of the Preakness had both made their last start on dirt. Just a little difference in perspective. ;)

My perspective is that

a) horses get injured less often on the synthetic. If you have 10 good 3yo's on the dirt, 3 or 4 of them will be injured by May, whereas it's probably 1 or 2 on the synthetic.
b) juveniles who rise to the top on the synthetic must be good all-round animals with both tactical and late speed because a horse doesn't often win a good race on the synthetic unless it is versatile. On the dirt, you often get more one-dimensional types who struggle once they meet one-dimensional types of a similar ability.

It's simply about the numbers - I'm not raising the synthetic to some mythical status.

So one race on the dirt doesn't really change my perspective. Why does it change yours?

[docicu3]

[QUOTE=chickenhead]They aren't quotes, obviously. I thought that was obvious from the "cliffs notes" comment, and the lack of quotation marks. So sorry, there is nothing to recant, or apologize for. I also don't remember berating him. So that's two things you've got wrong.

Cliffs notes:

SD: My opinion is based on what I've seen with my eyeballs, and I've seen enough to personally feel comfortable that I know what I see. And my opinion is she's the best older mare I've seen.

SB: Yeah well, you are duping people because your opinion sucks, and synthetics suck, and California horses suck, get off my f*cking show

The first paragraph that starts SD: My opinion..... is a dead on quote word for word.
The second that starts Yeah well... is a complete fabrication.

One happened exactly word for word for 2 complete sentences, the other is a bold faced lie. So if you have to "invent" content to tell a story that's not the Cliff Notes version. That's just a lazy assed distortion of what occurred.

[Spalding No!]

No she wasn't.

Why wasn't St. Trinians 7-wide? Wasn't she in the path to the immediate left of Zenyatta entering the stretch?

Or were you embellishing again when you said Zenyatta was 8-wide?

I await your "she was 6-wide" response...

[gm10]

Why wasn't St. Trinians 7-wide? Wasn't she in the path to the immediate left of Zenyatta entering the stretch?

Or were you embellishing again when you said Zenyatta was 8-wide?

I await your "she was 6-wide" response...

Zenyatta went very wide during the turn, whereas St Trinians went wider once she was more or less already in the stretch. It's not a big deal in itself, it just adds to the degree of difficulty.

[Stevie Belmont]

It's funny how some people like to diminish Zenyatta's competition, instead of realizing what a big race St. Trinians ran. These are well-bred thoroughbreds that can jump up and run a huge race from time to time. St. Trinians did just that in the Vanity Handicap, and Zenyatta had to come from far behind to get her. She really had to make up a ton of ground while going wide to get it done—while giving away 9 pounds to St. Trinians. She was awesome in winning—as usual.

Anybody who thinks lightly of winning 17 consecutive races without a loss, and winning the Breeders' Cup Classic does not fully understand or appreciate the greatness of this once in a life time mare. It's plain and simple.

Who did Eclipse beat? He beat them all. He retired undefeated—an accomplishment that will live on forever in the annals of thoroughbred racing history. No one knows for sure if Zenyatta will leave racing undefeated, but we do know she has finished ahead of every single horse she has faced up until now. And that is mighty accomplishment indeed.

Zenyatta has one of the longest strides I have ever seen in a thoroughbred. It's thrilling to watch her cover the amount of ground she does when she is extended. Does anyone see that when they watch her run? I don't care who she runs against. She will rally in that final furlong no matter what. She just covers more ground faster because she does things no other horse can do.

Physical handicapping is an important aspect in my evaluation of thoroughbreds—she is without a doubt one of the most physically impressive horses I have ever seen. There are not enough adjectives to describe her. Physically she is a gifted horse who stands out heads and shoulders above the rest—a very unique thoroughbred indeed. We should be lucky we have been able to witness such and amazing phenomena.

There is only one word to describe Zenyatta. Perfect.

[gm10]

It's funny how some people like to diminish Zenyatta's competition, instead of realizing what a big race St. Trinians ran. These are well-bred thoroughbreds that can jump up and run a huge race from time to time. St. Trinians did just that in the Vanity Handicap, and Zenyatta had to come from far behind to get her. She really had to make up a ton of ground while going wide to get it done—while giving away 9 pounds to St. Trinians. She was awesome in winning—as usual.

Anybody who thinks lightly of winning 17 consecutive races without a loss, and winning the Breeders' Cup Classic does not fully understand or appreciate the greatness of this once in a life time mare. It's plain and simple.

Who did Eclipse beat? He beat them all. He retired undefeated—an accomplishment that will live on forever in the annals of thoroughbred racing history. No one knows for sure if Zenyatta will leave racing undefeated, but we do know she has finished ahead of every single horse she has faced up until now. And that is mighty accomplishment indeed.

Zenyatta has one of the longest strides I have ever seen in a thoroughbred. It's thrilling to watch her cover the amount of ground she does when she is extended. Does anyone see that when they watch her run? I don't care who she runs against. She will rally in that final furlong no matter what. She just covers more ground faster because she does things no other horse can do.

Physical handicapping is an important aspect in my evaluation of thoroughbreds—she is without a doubt one of the most physically impressive horses I have ever seen. There are not enough adjectives to describe her. Physically she is a gifted horse who stands out heads and shoulders above the rest—a very unique thoroughbred indeed. We should be lucky we have been able to witness such and amazing phenomena.

There is only one word to describe Zenyatta. Perfect.

I am glad you pick up on the weight because that is what made this win so difficult in my opinion. Zenyatta relies heavily on her late speed and being so agile despite her huge size. Extra weight usually has a big effect on those two qualities.

[Spalding No!]

Zenyatta went very wide during the turn, whereas St Trinians went wider once she was more or less already in the stretch. It's not a big deal in itself, it just adds to the degree of difficulty.

Whatever. St. Trinians drifted out down the lane, but that of course doesn't mean she didn't also go wide around the turn to begin with.

[andymays]

Wide into the stretch and then kick is the preferred move on synthetic surfaces, especially if your supposed to be on the best horse. The last thing you want to do is lose momentum on synthetic surfaces.

[Spalding No!]

Zenyatta has one of the longest strides I have ever seen in a thoroughbred. It's thrilling to watch her cover the amount of ground she does when she is extended. Does anyone see that when they watch her run? I don't care who she runs against. She will rally in that final furlong no matter what. She just covers more ground faster because she does things no other horse can do.

You don't care who she runs against, but Team Zenyatta certainly does.

Physical handicapping is an important aspect in my evaluation of thoroughbreds—she is without a doubt one of the most physically impressive horses I have ever seen. There are not enough adjectives to describe her. Physically she is a gifted horse who stands out heads and shoulders above the rest—a very unique thoroughbred indeed. We should be lucky we have been able to witness such and amazing phenomena.

This is my problem with statements like this one and the similar one offered by Steve Davidowitz yesterday on Steve Byk's radio show:

These are statements that more so than praising Zenyatta, tend to praise the person making them. "I have such a great eye and such experience and knowledge that I know Zenyatta is a great horse, just by watching her move."

Congratulations, but I don't think you're in a minority with respect to Zenyatta's physical attributes.

Unfortunately, greatness in a running thoroughbred is TESTED on the racetrack. And then it's tested again. It is not merely "displayed" by running in anything less than the most competitive races available. And it's certainly not bestowed upon an animal because someone "sees" something in her.

Zenyatta certainly has the potential to be a great horse, and she can have however many would-be horse-whisperers validate it with their self-important boasts, but that doesn't mean she has proven her greatness on the racetrack--the only place where greatness counts.

[gm10]

You don't care who she runs against, but Team Zenyatta certainly does.



This is my problem with statements like this one and the similar one offered by Steve Davidowitz yesterday on Steve Byk's radio show:

These are statements that more so than praising Zenyatta, tend to praise the person making them. "I have such a great eye and such experience and knowledge that I know Zenyatta is a great horse, just by watching her move."

Congratulations, but I don't think you're in a minority with respect to Zenyatta's physical attributes.

Unfortunately, greatness in a running thoroughbred is TESTED on the racetrack. And then it's tested again. It is not merely "displayed" by running in anything less than the most competitive races available. And it's certainly not bestowed upon an animal because someone "sees" something in her.

Zenyatta certainly has the potential to be a great horse, and she can have however many would-be horse-whisperers validate it with their self-important boasts, but that doesn't mean she has proven her greatness on the racetrack--the only place where greatness counts.

I find it amazing that a horse who is

1) the first female winner ever of the Classic
2) the first horse ever to win both the Distaff and the Classic
3) the first graded stakes winner ever to win seventeen races in a row
4) one of the few horses who has won a grade 1 on dirt and synthetic
5) a horse who has won 11 grade 1 races in 3 successive seasons

does not satisfy your definition of greatness. Yours must be very high standards indeed.

[Stevie Belmont]

She confirmed her greatness a long time ago...



You don't care who she runs against, but Team Zenyatta certainly does.



This is my problem with statements like this one and the similar one offered by Steve Davidowitz yesterday on Steve Byk's radio show:

These are statements that more so than praising Zenyatta, tend to praise the person making them. "I have such a great eye and such experience and knowledge that I know Zenyatta is a great horse, just by watching her move."

Congratulations, but I don't think you're in a minority with respect to Zenyatta's physical attributes.

Unfortunately, greatness in a running thoroughbred is TESTED on the racetrack. And then it's tested again. It is not merely "displayed" by running in anything less than the most competitive races available. And it's certainly not bestowed upon an animal because someone "sees" something in her.

Zenyatta certainly has the potential to be a great horse, and she can have however many would-be horse-whisperers validate it with their self-important boasts, but that doesn't mean she has proven her greatness on the racetrack--the only place where greatness counts.

[Spalding No!]

I find it amazing that a horse who is

1) the first female winner ever of the Classic
2) the first horse ever to win both the Distaff and the Classic
3) the first graded stakes winner ever to win seventeen races in a row
4) one of the few horses who has won a grade 1 on dirt and synthetic
5) a horse who has won 11 grade 1 races in 3 successive seasons

does not satisfy your definition of greatness. Yours must be very high standards indeed.

I prefer race time (ie track, stakes, world records), competition faced, and the intensity of campaigning.

On the other hand, in general I don't arbitrarily put Breeder's Cup races at a higher level than other Grade 1 races. The only races that should be placed on a pedestal in this country are the Triple Crown classics.

[Spalding No!]

She confirmed her greatness a long time ago...

Right after her maiden win?

Her toughest assignment to date was the 2008 BC Distaff.

[Stevie Belmont]

Zenyatta is about 2 inches away from being Lava Man? What the heck is that all about? I'll tell you this if I was on that show and heard that comment I would have lost my cool.

What a joke. You could not even start to put these two in the same class.

And I have always been a fan of Lava Man.

As Steve D Said "I don't care"

Paulick to the Rescue! Guess who's side he's on? ;)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BYK DISSES ZENYATTA

http://www.paulickreport.com/blog/byk-disses-zenyatta/

Excerpt:

Davidowitz spoke glowingly of Zenyatta’s victory in Sunday’s Vanity Handicap at Hollywood Park, though stopped short of saying he would bet her to beat top 4-year-old colt Quality Road in a head-to-head matchup. “There’s a very unusual dimension to her, and there are to all great horses,” said Davidowitz, the author of the recently revised handicapping Bible, “Betting Thoroughbreds for the 21st Century.” “They have something different.”

Byk wasn’t buying it, and as Davidowitz continued to sing the praises of Zenyatta, the radio host lost his cool, constantly interrupting Davidowitz and finally shouting at him. “The horse is three inches away from being Best Pal,” Byk shouted. “She’s about two inches away from being Best Pal or Lava Man. She’s been confined to California for her entire career. …You seem to think this is the greatest racehorse of all time. It’s laughable.”

[Spalding No!]

Zenyatta is about 2 inches away from being Lava Man? What the heck is that all about? I'll tell you this if I was on that show and heard that comment I would have lost my cool.

What a joke. You could not even start to put these two in the same class.

And I have always been a fan of Lava Man.

As Steve D Said "I don't care"

I know seriously.

Like Zenyatta even came close to winning the Santa Anita Handicap, Hollywood Gold Cup, and Pacific Classic in the same year.

Of course, winning the Vanity 3 straight years is equivalent to winning the Hollywood Gold Cup 3 straight years.

[gm10]

I prefer race time (ie track, stakes, world records), competition faced, and the intensity of campaigning.

On the other hand, in general I don't arbitrarily put Breeder's Cup races at a higher level than other Grade 1 races. The only races that should be placed on a pedestal in this country are the Triple Crown classics.

I could not possibly agree with that. Why on earth should such a restricted series of races be placed on a pedestal?? I thought that 'competition faced' was important to you? A Triple Crown race doesn't often feature more than a handful of eventual open grade 1 winners.

[Cardus]

I prefer race time (ie track, stakes, world records), competition faced, and the intensity of campaigning.

On the other hand, in general I don't arbitrarily put Breeder's Cup races at a higher level than other Grade 1 races. The only races that should be placed on a pedestal in this country are the Triple Crown classics.

I could not possibly agree with that more.

[NTamm1215]

I know seriously.

Like Zenyatta even came close to winning the Santa Anita Handicap, Hollywood Gold Cup, and Pacific Classic in the same year.

Of course, winning the Vanity 3 straight years is equivalent to winning the Hollywood Gold Cup 3 straight years.

It's also not nearly as idiotic to say Zenyatta is three inches away from being Lava Man as it is to open your remarks with a comparison between running down Winning Colors and running down St Trinians.

NT

[Cardus]

I could not possibly agree with that. Why on earth should such a restricted series of races be placed on a pedestal?? I thought that 'competition faced' was important to you? A Triple Crown race doesn't often feature more than a handful of eventual open grade 1 winners.

Just guessing, but "the intensity of campaigning" element applies here, regardless of the competition in any given year.

[Spalding No!]

I could not possibly agree with that. Why on earth should such a restricted series of races be placed on a pedestal?? I thought that 'competition faced' was important to you? A Triple Crown race doesn't often feature more than a handful of eventual open grade 1 winners.

I was baiting you with that.

Being able to compete and be successful in the Triple Crown races is a huge feather in the cap of any horse on a path towards "greatness". Obviously the majority of a horse's races at 2 and 3 are going to be age restricted, and thus not the "toughest" races in terms of competition per se. However, the TC races inherently are difficult because of their distance, field size, and placing on the calendar within the season and between themselves. Precocity means a lot in this sport.

However, it's a double-edged sword in that it is difficult for a horse to hold together following the Triple Crown races and maintain or even improve in subsequent seasons.

Rachel Alexandra is finding that out the hard way.

[PaceAdvantage]

But I see the opposition preparing in advance to discount such a feat!No you don't. Stop being silly.I would love to hear just one anti-synthetic advocate say that a BCC win @ Churchill would be enough to remove any doubt about her greatness!You're not listening apparently. Lots of folks have said this, including me.

[Stevie Belmont]

I never saw her madien win—but you can certainly see if a horse has the potential to be great after just one race.

The 2008 Ladies Classic was a brilliant performance. I was not too familiar with her before that. After that race I realized how good she was. And she smoked a solid field of fillies and mares that included Music Note and Cocoa Beach.



Right after her maiden win?

Her toughest assignment to date was the 2008 BC Distaff.

[PaceAdvantage]

I know seriously.

Like Zenyatta even came close to winning the Santa Anita Handicap, Hollywood Gold Cup, and Pacific Classic in the same year.

Of course, winning the Vanity 3 straight years is equivalent to winning the Hollywood Gold Cup 3 straight years.Interesting rebuttal. I await Stevie Belmont's retort.

[gm10]

Just guessing, but "the intensity of campaigning" element applies here, regardless of the competition in any given year.

That I agree with, it certainly brings out the toughness in horses, but we shouldn't exaggerate either. A lot of horses they meet en route are simply not very good and a lot of the horses are only in the TC for 1 or 2.

[jamey1977]

Zenyatta is about 2 inches away from being Lava Man? What the heck is that all about? I'll tell you this if I was on that show and heard that comment I would have lost my cool.

What a joke. You could not even start to put these two in the same class.

And I have always been a fan of Lava Man.

As Steve D Said "I don't care"
I finally get to hear it. Rip Van Winkle was no ordinary Horse either was Gio Ponti. Everyone gets so defensive. Points were made St.Trinians would have taken out Rachel, I agree with Steve on that one. But I also agree with the host. Zenyatta staying around beating up on the same old horses but every horse in this field on Sunday ,she had never faced before. The Greatest Mare of all times... Zenyatta sure is up there. She would take them all out. The Boys. I'd have to wait and see. But at a Mile And A Quarter she would be most competitive. We saw what happened at The Breeders Cup Classic. All the critics are just ignoring her greatest accomplishment. No female horse has ever won The Breeders Cup Classic for males. If she doesn't win in November, one might never win The Classic for 220 years. Zenyatta is special. I agree with Steve.

[gm10]

I was baiting you with that.

Being able to compete and be successful in the Triple Crown races is a huge feather in the cap of any horse on a path towards "greatness". Obviously the majority of a horse's races at 2 and 3 are going to be age restricted, and thus not the "toughest" races in terms of competition per se. However, the TC races inherently are difficult because of their distance, field size, and placing on the calendar within the season and between themselves. Precocity means a lot in this sport.

However, it's a double-edged sword in that it is difficult for a horse to hold together following the Triple Crown races and maintain or even improve in subsequent seasons.

Rachel Alexandra is finding that out the hard way.

I don't really see that it helps them on their 'path to greatness'. It's fairly logical that the most classy horses do well during the Triple Crown and that they continue to do well until they meet a set of 4 or 5yo's who are just as classy and more seasoned. But it doesn't mean that a horse who doesn't start in the TC won't be just as good, and the label 'greatness' (which has become largely meaningless anyway) usually only comes into play much later.

[Stevie Belmont]

Lava Man had a great run there for a few years.

Just because Zenyatta did not run or aim for those races does nothing to diminish what she has accomplished. Her crew has managed her career perfectly.


I know seriously.

Like Zenyatta even came close to winning the Santa Anita Handicap, Hollywood Gold Cup, and Pacific Classic in the same year.

Of course, winning the Vanity 3 straight years is equivalent to winning the Hollywood Gold Cup 3 straight years.

[Spalding No!]

We saw what happened at The Breeders Cup Classic. All the critics are just ignoring her greatest accomplishment. No female horse has ever won The Breeders Cup Classic for males. If she doesn't win in November, one might never win The Classic for 220 years. Zenyatta is special. I agree with Steve.

What has there been, like 24 or 25 BC Classics? How many mares have tried? 4 or 5?

Rags To Riches won the Belmont, being the first filly in 90-odd years.

Much more important accomplishment given the circumstances in which each race was run.

[Spalding No!]

The 2008 Ladies Classic was a brilliant performance. I was not too familiar with her before that. After that race I realized how good she was. And she smoked a solid field of fillies and mares that included Music Note and Cocoa Beach.

Not that you necessarily agree that the BC Distaff was her toughest race to date, but don't you find it disconcerting that in the two years since that race, she's at the most, run in only one race even comparable to that?

[Spalding No!]

I don't really see that it helps them on their 'path to greatness'. It's fairly logical that the most classy horses do well during the Triple Crown and that they continue to do well until they meet a set of 4 or 5yo's who are just as classy and more seasoned. But it doesn't mean that a horse who doesn't start in the TC won't be just as good, and the label 'greatness' (which has become largely meaningless anyway) usually only comes into play much later.

The Triple Crown is a major turning point in the career of a top class racehorse.

It is the junction where precocity, stamina, and durability come together.

Triple Crown races are not interchangeable with other 3yo Grade 1's the way that the Hollywood Gold Cup and Woodward might be in a quality season of racing. Their relative position on the calendar are essential to their importance.

A top class 3yo's schedule is set in stone. And, other than simply not starting at that age, there is no way around it. There is no cherry-picking involved.

[Spalding No!]

Lava Man had a great run there for a few years.

Just because Zenyatta did not run or aim for those races does nothing to diminish what she has accomplished. Her crew has managed her career perfectly.

They've managed her career perfectly as far as earning older mare Eclipse honors, certainly.

But talk of HOY and "all-time great" should be as restricted as the races she runs in.

I know the eventual retort on these threads once Team Zenyatta completes another meek campaign and retires will be "who cares about greatness, greatness is meaningless". So be it, but that is what is mostly being argued on the board at this point.

Clearly she is the best older mare the last 3 years. Sadly, she appears to have the talent to deserve much more grandiose praise.

[Bullet Plane]

Steve Byk puts on a great radio show. I enjoy it and look forward to it. The exchange between Steve D and Steve B was great! Two guys passionate about the game! Knocking heads together and making great points!

As to who was rude.. well in the heat of battle- I will give them both a pass.
I think they are both well intended and meant no harm.

[Jasonm921]

I tell you what, Steve Byk is absolutely right. It's ashame because this filly may be just as good as every one in California believes but her connections place her in suspect races. The Clark Handicap was the perfect place for her and it would have overshadowed Rachel's race. Even if she lost it would have showed some gusto and would have been applauded for the attempt but playing it safe and claiming that St. Trinians is a world beater is ridiculous at this point in the game.

[andymays]

Byk on now! 5:00 pm pst.

http://www.thoroughbredracingradionetwork.com/index.php?option=com_events&task=view_detail&agid=774&year=2010&month=06&day=17&Itemid=35

[Tom]

On the radio or just the net?