Steve Davidowitz on Zenyatta

[classhandicapper]

Sorry for starting another thread, but I didn't want this to get buried in one of the other Zenyatta/Rachel threads. I hope it will be left up even though it links to an outside source.

I asked S.D. what he thought of the Vanity because I always enjoy his insights. He sent me a copy of his comments on Zenyatta and the weekend racing in general located here.

http://beat.bodoglife.com/horseracing/zenyatta%E2%80%99s-vanity-win-tops-a-weekend-full-of-great-performances-90865.html

[Greyfox]

From the article:



," but I believe for an absolute certainty that Zenyatta’s Vanity run reinforced the notion that she is the best race mare of my lifetime, if not one of the top horses of any age or sex since Secretariat, Affirmed, Seattle Slew, Ruffian and Spectacular Bid were dominating the 1970s."

Davidowitz

[Grits]

Class, for what reason does this piece by Davidowitz need its own thread? What is so valuable here, so as not to risk being buried in another thread? There's not a single word, or insight, written by him that is one of revelation or that hasn't been stated by every turf writer in the nation including Jay Hovdey at DRF, who wrote a far better piece. Its at Equidaily.

http://hovdeyblog.drf.com/hovdeyblog/2010/06/we-did-think-about-other-things-and-trying-to-do-other-things-and-we-still-might-theres-options-i-wouldnt-pay-too-much-at.html

Are we supposed to be notably impressed simply because you asked his opinion and he was kind enough to send you his piece?

Everyone knows you think highly of Zenyatta. It doesn't take the mediocre comments of a particular turfwriter/author, now writing for an off-shore bet shop to affirm your thinking.

[Greyfox]

It doesn't take the mediocre comments of a particular turfwriter/author,.................

Davidowitz mediocre?????:lol: :lol: Now you are losing credibility Grits.

[Bettowin]

I was expecting some type of personal correspondence not an article on Bodog of all places. Major letdown, might just have to go back to bed :mad:

[andymays]

Davidowitz mediocre?????:lol: :lol: Now you are losing credibility Grits.

Grits is pretty close to right on in her assessment of his opinion. It is and has been overhyped for years in my opinion.

He's done a lot of valuable work in the past but I haven't been impressed with much that he's done over the last few years. He seems to love Tapeta. That's enough for me.

[PaceAdvantage]

Davidowitz mediocre?????:lol: :lol: Now you are losing credibility Grits.So you're saying everything he has EVER written is 100% top notch? If so, that would lead me to question your credibility as well.

In my opinion, this was a very silly remark by you towards Grits. She was clearly stating she thought THIS PARTICULAR PIECE was mediocre in her opinion, not that Davidowitz is entirely mediocre. I haven't read it, so I won't comment whether or not I agree with her.

[bigmack]

I was expecting some type of personal correspondence not an article on Bodog of all places. Major letdown, might just have to go back to bed :mad:
Major letdown. :lol:

[DeanT]

I would have to disagree Grits. I want to know what a guy like him thinks - or Pandolfo, or Beyer, or Maloney, or Dan G. If it is posted in another thread if a person disagrees with them he gets flamed nowadays. I find it hard to whittle through these threads because of the disrespect shown to others who are smart and deserve some respect for their opinion.

CJ made some good points that he thinks she is tailing off a little bit. He will get flamed if he pushed that (more than likely from someone who does not even bet and handicap) - the tomato can stuff etc - but I want to read what he thinks.

We tend to eat our young. We see that with Beyer threads here ad nauseum. Most of us cant hold Andy Beyer's racing form, but have little problem calling him an idiot.

On topic, Steve makes some good points about what he has seen - and he has seen a ton of the greats. Closers are and always have been different to handicap and judge. For someone like him to give her the stamp of approval it means something (imo).

[cj]

Grits is pretty close to right on in her assessment of his opinion. It is and has been overhyped for years in my opinion.

He's done a lot of valuable work in the past but I haven't been impressed with much that he's done over the last few years. He seems to love Tapeta. That's enough for me.

I tend to agree. I think he has slipped lately. I also think he is in the tank for rubber tracks and that certainly would boost his opinion of Zenyatta.

[PaceAdvantage]

From the article:



," but I believe for an absolute certainty that Zenyatta’s Vanity run reinforced the notion that she is the best race mare of my lifetime, if not one of the top horses of any age or sex since Secretariat, Affirmed, Seattle Slew, Ruffian and Spectacular Bid were dominating the 1970s."

DavidowitzI'm a little shocked that a writer of his stature would make such a comment. One of the top horses of any age or sex since the 1970s? Based on what exactly?

Her defeat of the mighty Ginger Punch or her defeat of the incomparable Gio Ponti? Now, I'm sure some will take this last comment of mine as an attack on Zenyatta, but it is not. What it is, IS A DEFENSE of horses like Cigar, Holy Bull, Ghostzapper and a SLEW OF OTHERS who would BURY Zenyatta on dirt. No need to go way back to the 1970s.

This has to be a joke, right?

[DeanT]

I'm a little shocked that a writer of his stature would make such a comment. One of the top horses of any age or sex since the 1970s? Based on what exactly?

Her defeat of the mighty Ginger Punch or her defeat of the incomparable Gio Ponti? Now, I'm sure some will take this last comment of mine as an attack on Zenyatta, but it is not. What it is, IS A DEFENSE of horses like Cigar, Holy Bull, Ghostzapper and a SLEW OF OTHERS who would BURY Zenyatta. No need to go way back to the 1970s.

This has to be a joke, right?
As someone posted last night, he and Beyer had a difference of opinion on Seattle Slew. Beyer was using numbers, he was using his eye and race shape to judge his greatness, or lack of it. He is doing the same thing here. You disagree, as Beyer did so no harm in that, but you are using a completely different barometer to judge the horse. I respect what you are looking at (for E or EP horses I think it is 100% valid and you might be correct) but open your mind for a second to what he is saying, and using to judge her.

[Greyfox]

So you're saying everything he has EVER written is 100% top notch? If so, that would lead me to question your credibility as well.

.

I never said that.

However, when a writer with Davidowitz' stature says:

"she is the best race mare of my lifetime,"

I consider that to be quite a pronouncement. He's bin der dun dat.

[delayjf]

Are we supposed to be notably impressed simply because you asked his opinion and he was kind enough to send you his piece?

Was the above really necessary? Class doesn't strike me as the type to drop names to impress anyone.

[Greyfox]

What it is, IS A DEFENSE of horses like Cigar, Holy Bull, Ghostzapper and a SLEW OF OTHERS who would BURY Zenyatta on dirt. No need to go way back to the 1970s.

This has to be a joke, right?


He said "if not one of the top horses of any age or sex since"

He did not say better than Cigar, Holy Bull, Ghostzapper....

He said "one of the top horses."

[PaceAdvantage]

You disagree, as Beyer did so no harm in that, but you are using a completely different barometer to judge the horse. I respect what you are looking at (for E or EP horses I think it is 100% valid and you might be correct) but open your mind for a second to what he is saying, and using to judge her.How much does one have to open one's mind when what was written is clear as day?

"but I believe for an absolute certainty that Zenyatta’s Vanity run reinforced the notion that she is the best race mare of my lifetime, if not one of the top horses of any age or sex since Secretariat, Affirmed, Seattle Slew, Ruffian and Spectacular Bid were dominating the 1970s."

Best race mare of his lifetime. Has he forgotten Bayakoa for starters? Mind boggling.

And again, we are talking dirt here...if you are going to invoke the greatest names of the 1970s that you have to go back to in order to find horses GREATER than Zenyatta, then you are talking dirt.

On dirt, Zenyatta loses to Bayakoa. Not only did I not have to go back to the 1970s to find a better horse, I didn't even have to go to the male side of the ledger...

[classhandicapper]

I was expecting some type of personal correspondence not an article on Bodog of all places. Major letdown, might just have to go back to bed :mad:

:lol:

I did get a personal response but chose not to reproduce it because it pretty much said the same thing in less words and told me to stop worrying about the inability of others to recognize the obvious.

And for the record, he gives out picks pre race (I won't advertise where) and has been profitable for the last few years despite no ability to see late scratches, track conditions, biases etc... and making selections on multiple circuits. I doubt he is slipping. He's just not obsessed with numbers.

[PaceAdvantage]

He said "if not one of the top horses of any age or sex since"

He did not say better than Cigar, Holy Bull, Ghostzapper....

He said "one of the top horses."He puts her on at least equal footing with any of the top horses since the 1970s. That is what he is saying. You are correct, he didn't say she is BETTER than Cigar or Ghostzapper, but he puts her in their class.

And I'm saying, on dirt, they would have smoked her, and I'm thinking Classhandicapper himself agrees with me, based on his recent posts about mares like Zenyatta facing Grade 1 males on dirt, let alone CHAMPION Grade 1 males like Cigar and Ghostzapper.

[tzipi]

I never said that.

However, when a writer with Davidowitz' stature says:

"she is the best race mare of my lifetime,"

I consider that to be quite a pronouncement. He's bin der dun dat.


Well he's not saying she's better than other horses like Ruffian because he said, "She's the best MARE". He didn't say the best "horse" or "female" of his lifetime. So he's not crazy in his statement.

Also I have a feeling that if Zenyatta ran in the 80's-90's and Personal Ensign came along today, Steve would be saying, "PE is the best mare I've ever seen" It could have been any journalist,trainer,etc who said this and it would have been posted in it's own thread to try and show something.
I mean EVERYONE here is a racing fan, knows horses and can form their own opinions. It seems like a weak attempt to try and show something when you have to post a article about a person(which who says their opinions is Gods?) saying she's the best MARE of all time. Ok good for him. I know who Steve is and sometimes he's spot on and sometimes I think he's way off, LIKE ALL sports journalists.

So bottome line is I think he's a bit off IMO. Well he didn't say best horse,filly,female of all time. He just said mare. I think she is in the top 3 mares of all time, but not the #1 mare. And that's JMO. ;)

[Grits]

I would have to disagree Grits. I want to know what a guy like him thinks - or Pandolfo, or Beyer, or Maloney, or Dan G. If it is posted in another thread if a person disagrees with them he gets flamed nowadays. I find it hard to whittle through these threads because of the disrespect shown to others who are smart and deserve some respect for their opinion.

CJ made some good points that he thinks she is tailing off a little bit. He will get flamed if he pushed that (more than likely from someone who does not even bet and handicap) - the tomato can stuff etc - but I want to read what he thinks.

We tend to eat our young. We see that with Beyer threads here ad nauseum. Most of us cant hold Andy Beyer's racing form, but have little problem calling him an idiot.

On topic, Steve makes some good points about what he has seen - and he has seen a ton of the greats. Closers are and always have been different to handicap and judge. For someone like him to give her the stamp of approval it means something (imo).

Dean, I understand what you're saying. And I can walk in my den right now and pull his books off the shelves in the bookcase. Still, there are many well known handicappers/writers in the country--or does Davidowitz still reside here? Anyway, in my opinion, his piece indicates nothing that hasn't already been stated in the last 48 hours--by any and everyone connected with the game that's able to garner ink.

They, for the most part, say the same thing. Some, too, are wise enough to understand that staying in California on synthetics--ain't gonna get it. Ever. Not where history is written.

[DeanT]

Anyway, in my opinion, his piece indicates nothing that hasn't already been stated in the last 48 hours--by any and everyone connected with the game that's able to garner ink.

Fair enough.

As an aside: I would have loved to be a fly on the wall with he and Beyer discussing Slew. That woulda been cool.

[gm10]

So you're saying everything he has EVER written is 100% top notch? If so, that would lead me to question your credibility as well.

In my opinion, this was a very silly remark by you towards Grits. She was clearly stating she thought THIS PARTICULAR PIECE was mediocre in her opinion, not that Davidowitz is entirely mediocre. I haven't read it, so I won't comment whether or not I agree with her.

He is one of the most respected and most versatile handicappers in the US. I have tremendous respect for his opinion.

[DeanT]

And again, we are talking dirt here.

Are you saying people can not judge the greatness of a horse because of the surface? If so, I believe you will have to open your mind a little more. People have been judging greats on different surfaces and different countries, with different competition for years and doing so quite well. For many years sharp-eyed handicappers were even able to judge horseflesh without the use of even a teletimer. It can be done, and people like Davidowitz I think know how.

[PaceAdvantage]

Are you saying people can not judge the greatness of a horse because of the surface? If so, I believe you will have to open your mind a little more. Interesting that of the horses Davidowitz chose to name, every single one of them was a dirt superstar (Secretariat, Affirmed, Seattle Slew, Ruffian and Spectacular Bid), although Secretariat was champion Turf Male in 1973, so I suppose he counts...

[bigmack]

Interesting that of the horses Davidowitz chose to name, every single one of them was a dirt superstar (Secretariat, Affirmed, Seattle Slew, Ruffian and Spectacular Bid).
OK, now you're being silly.

[PaceAdvantage]

He is one of the most respected and most versatile handicappers in the US. I have tremendous respect for his opinion.You write this as if I don't hold a similar opinion.

[PaceAdvantage]

OK, now you're being silly.Really? Perhaps if people didn't take issue with my clarifying that I am strictly talking dirt, I wouldn't have to resort to such silliness.

I just want everyone to know that Zenyatta would probably beat a lot of these horses I am discussing if the race were held on synthetics. I wanted to make that point clear, which is why I keep bringing up dirt. But for some reason, people interpret this in some other manner.

Whatever.

[tzipi]

Steve D wrote a book called The BEST and WORST of Racing(good book!). He names his top 10 in almost every category. Does everyone agree with EVERY single horse,race caller,sire,etc,etc he chooses as his #1 or even his top 3 or 5?

[BluegrassProf]

He is one of the most respected and most versatile handicappers in the US. I have tremendous respect for his opinion.Absolutely he is. But that's relevant only to a limited extent.

Orson Welles produced arguably the greatest film in American history in Citizen Kane. Were he alive today, I have absolutely no doubt that many - myself included - would disagree with entries in his "top ten films" list. Would I respect his opinion? Of course I would. Would I consider it authoritative? Well, of course not.

Why? Because such judgements are as subjective to him as they are to anyone else. We all recognize excellence, particularly those well-schooled in the game; the difference lies in how we, as individuals, make judgements of greatness.

It's nice to see his opinion, but it's far from any sort of gold standard. Take it for what it is.

[JustRalph]

Never been a big fan of Davidowitz....... I pretty much started ignoring him a few years back......

[Cardus]

I never said that.

However, when a writer with Davidowitz' stature says:

"she is the best race mare of my lifetime,"

I consider that to be quite a pronouncement. He's bin der dun dat.

I do not understand German.

Can you translate this, please?

[Deepsix]

My opinion is that Davidowitz authored one (ONE ) of the foundation books concerning thoroughbred handicapping ('97-'98 don't remember just when I read it?), and it ran concurrently with Sartin's quasi-transition/incorporation into All-Ways software. It was, at that moment in time, a pretty interesting approach to handicapping. Back then I read alot and learned alot.

In conclusion---- I found that some good speed figures and info-added PP's gave me all that I required. I ultimately abandoned the number crunching software that proliferates the market, and I now focus on a select/narrow type of races.

Davidowitz did his contribution.

[Market Mover]

Steve D wrote a book called The BEST and WORST of Racing(good book!). He names his top 10 in almost every category. Does everyone agree with EVERY single horse,race caller,sire,etc,etc he chooses as his #1 or even his top 3 or 5?


Most of the content of that book is repetitive, and you can go on reading realizing every next chapter is a mere echo of previous chapters...would not recommend...

[Greyfox]

I do not understand German.

Can you translate this, please?

German? No wonder you can't translate it.
Hint: Try Urdu.

[Stevie Belmont]

Thanks for putting this up...

Sorry for starting another thread, but I didn't want this to get buried in one of the other Zenyatta/Rachel threads. I hope it will be left up even though it links to an outside source.

I asked S.D. what he thought of the Vanity because I always enjoy his insights. He sent me a copy of his comments on Zenyatta and the weekend racing in general located here.

http://beat.bodoglife.com/horseracing/zenyatta%E2%80%99s-vanity-win-tops-a-weekend-full-of-great-performances-90865.html

[gm10]

Absolutely he is. But that's relevant only to a limited extent.

Orson Welles produced arguably the greatest film in American history in Citizen Kane. Were he alive today, I have absolutely no doubt that many - myself included - would disagree with entries in his "top ten films" list. Would I respect his opinion? Of course I would. Would I consider it authoritative? Well, of course not.

Why? Because such judgements are as subjective to him as they are to anyone else. We all recognize excellence, particularly those well-schooled in the game; the difference lies in how we, as individuals, make judgements of greatness.

It's nice to see his opinion, but it's far from any sort of gold standard. Take it for what it is.

I do. He just happens to say what I'm thinking. Brilliant.

[thaskalos]

Class, for what reason does this piece by Davidowitz need its own thread? What is so valuable here, so as not to risk being buried in another thread? There's not a single word, or insight, written by him that is one of revelation or that hasn't been stated by every turf writer in the nation including Jay Hovdey at DRF, who wrote a far better piece. Its at Equidaily.

http://hovdeyblog.drf.com/hovdeyblog/2010/06/we-did-think-about-other-things-and-trying-to-do-other-things-and-we-still-might-theres-options-i-wouldnt-pay-too-much-at.html

Are we supposed to be notably impressed simply because you asked his opinion and he was kind enough to send you his piece?

Everyone knows you think highly of Zenyatta. It doesn't take the mediocre comments of a particular turfwriter/author, now writing for an off-shore bet shop to affirm your thinking. Davidowitz is not only a handicapper/author...he is a serious bettor, who has made a living playing this game over extended periods of time, and over many of the racetracks in this country.

Beyer calls him his mentor...and one of the most astute horseplayers in the country. Does a player like this deserve to have his opinion, whatever that opinion might be, BURIED? If HE does not deserve his own thread...than who does? There are players in this game that have separated themselves from the masses...and they deserve to be heard!

Beyer, Davidowitz, Crist, Quinn, the late Tom Ainslie, etc., they did more than just play the game...they educated whole generations of horseplayers! Through their efforts...our load has been considerably lighter than it might have otherwise been, and for that, they deserve our respect...and their own threads!

[DeanT]

Crist (I know another one that we are all much smarter than :)) lends a hand on splits in his most recent blog piece.

http://cristblog.drf.com/crist/2010/06/108-apples-and-1160-oranges.html?

Zenyatta's victory was perhaps the most dramatic in her incomparable career, and no mathematical analysis can fully reflect her accomplishments. Nor do final-time speed figures account for her doing whatever she must to win, even when losing ground and conceding weight to her opponents. Only the most literal-minded blockhead would say that Saturday's races show that if Rachel Alexandra and Zenyatta squared off at nine furlongs, Zenyatta would come up two lengths short.

[Grits]

Promise you, I'm aware of this and own the books of every gentleman you've named. Meanwhile, read both, Davidowitz and Crist and indicate which was the more enlightening report, which gave the reader more?

Crist told me much, which most often, is the case. Davidowitz, on the other hand, as I clearly stated, in this particular piece told me not anything I wasn't already aware of.

The reporting, too, is apples to oranges. The apple getting the A+.

EOC

Davidowitz is not only a handicapper/author...he is a serious bettor, who has made a living playing this game over extended periods of time, and over many of the racetracks in this country.

Beyer calls him his mentor...and one of the most astute horseplayers in the country. Does a player like this deserve to have his opinion, whatever that opinion might be, BURIED? If HE does not deserve his own thread...than who does? There are players in this game that have separated themselves from the masses...and they deserve to be heard!

Beyer, Davidowitz, Crist, Quinn, the late Tom Ainslie, etc., they did more than just play the game...they educated whole generations of horseplayers! Through their efforts...our load has been considerably lighter than it might have otherwise been, and for that, they deserve our respect...and their own threads!

[gm10]

Crist (I know another one that we are all much smarter than :)) lends a hand on splits in his most recent blog piece.

http://cristblog.drf.com/crist/2010/06/108-apples-and-1160-oranges.html?

That is saying quite a lot imo. Crist isn't too fond of synthetic racing, but he clearly has the mental flexibility to see beyond surfaces.

[DeanT]

It's why I love capping. We have two excellent ones, not prone to over praise most times, liking that performance - not only liking but really liking it. I know two others whom I respect that think she was and is not at the top of her game.

It's a great freaking game. I dont know how anyone plays slots or sports bets over this.

[Deepsix]

This is interesting.... as I read the much hyped Quinn's book (back in the day) it was full of sample PP's and he carried on-and-on in obtuse scenarios...... I threw the book in the dumpster. Useless for me. BUT, that was many years ago and it seems Quinn hasn't been heard of much since (since his membership on the "Horse Players Group" (or whatever that group was called). He didn't do much for the prototypical horseplayer, as I recall.

Just added for some spice----

[thaskalos]

This is interesting.... as I read the much hyped Quinn's book (back in the day) it was full of sample PP's and he carried on-and-on in obtuse scenarios...... I threw the book in the dumpster. Useless for me. BUT, that was many years ago and it seems Quinn hasn't been heard of much since (since his membership on the "Horse Players Group" (or whatever that group was called). He didn't do much for the prototypical horseplayer, as I recall.

Just added for some spice---- "Many wise words have been written in defense of critics...usually by themselves."

Roger Ebert.

[gm10]

It's why I love capping. We have two excellent ones, not prone to over praise most times, liking that performance - not only liking but really liking it. I know two others whom I respect that think she was and is not at the top of her game.

It's a great freaking game. I dont know how anyone plays slots or sports bets over this.

Hehe true. I really love Zenyatta, her BC Classic was simply amazing, but I share the suspicion that she is as good now as she was then, whereas some of her skeptics are now starting to praise her. Only time might tell, and even then.

[PaceAdvantage]

Crist (I know another one that we are all much smarter than :)) lends a hand on splits in his most recent blog piece.

http://cristblog.drf.com/crist/2010/06/108-apples-and-1160-oranges.html?Does this mean St Trinians would beat Rachel Alexandra if the two met up on a dirt course going nine furlongs?

If so, by how much?

[thaskalos]

Promise you, I'm aware of this and own the books of every gentleman you've named. Meanwhile, read both, Davidowitz and Crist and indicate which was the more enlightening report, which gave the reader more?

Crist told me much, which most often, is the case. Davidowitz, on the other hand, as I clearly stated, in this particular piece told me not anything I wasn't already aware of.

The reporting, too, is apples to oranges. The apple getting the A+.

EOC Comparing one article to another is not the point. Yes, Crist's article was more "enlightening". But I wanted to read Steve D.'s opinion too...

Your objection to starting a new thread for Davidowitz appears very trivial...we start new threads all the time. And many of them are repetitive in nature...yet hardly anyone complains.

[JustRalph]

Just another Blockhead here............

[rwwupl]

Sorry for starting another thread, but I didn't want this to get buried in one of the other Zenyatta/Rachel threads. I hope it will be left up even though it links to an outside source.

I asked S.D. what he thought of the Vanity because I always enjoy his insights. He sent me a copy of his comments on Zenyatta and the weekend racing in general located here.

http://beat.bodoglife.com/horseracing/zenyatta%E2%80%99s-vanity-win-tops-a-weekend-full-of-great-performances-90865.html


Does anyone have difficulty besides me reading what he has to say,the background is black and the text is gray...or is it just me...I know I am getting older, but the Doctor said I was 15-20 vision.

I do better with traditional writing and background.

[5k-claim]

Are we supposed to be notably impressed simply because you asked his opinion and he was kind enough to send you his piece?


Hi Grits,

I was appreciative of the link, and thought the article was at least as good a reason to start another thread as so many others are.

So maybe the thread was started for other readers like me? How many total readers are on here, 200 or more?


.

[bisket]

class, we got her at 10 4/5's in the blossom for one furlong during the race. it was in the middle of a split (so it won't show up in any past perf or charts), but she can accelerate like no other horse i've seen for a long long time. after watching yesterday: bring on quality road at 1 1/8 mile. just think if she didn't lose her momentum and was accelerating smoothly into that last furlong.... 10 and change out of the question?

[the little guy]

They know where to find Quality Road.

[cj]

They know where to find Quality Road.

That is why she is staying at Delmar...and ducking Rail Trip too.

[only11]

They know where to find Quality Road.
Do you think QR's camp know where to find HER?

[cj]

Do you think QR's camp know where to find HER?

They can't enter the races she is targeting, but you know that of course.

[bisket]

del mar is not a definate, but i'm thinking that may be where she runs. first off synthetics has been working pretty good for many runners from california. that wasn't how the wind was blowing a few weeks ago, but its what its looking like now. why ship across the country when theres three indentical graded races, a week or two apart, a 100 miles apart, for all the other runners to avoid her. i don't think we'll be seeing her on dirt until the classic, and by the way they have said they are going to the classic. unlike quality and rachel. heck we don't know what race rachel is gonna show up for until she's in the paddock :lol: and you want zen to ship to race her?

[only11]

They can't enter the races she is targeting, but you know that of course.
That was a joke...QR could run against Rail Trip can he?Same sex?

[cj]

That was a joke...QR could run against Rail Trip can he?Same sex?

Why should he? He can race for just as much money on real dirt.

[letswastemoney]

del mar is not a definate, but i'm thinking that may be where she runs. first off synthetics has been working pretty good for many runners from california. that wasn't how the wind was blowing a few weeks ago, but its what its looking like now. why ship across the country when theres three indentical graded races, a week or two apart, a 100 miles apart, for all the other runners to avoid her. i don't think we'll be seeing her on dirt until the classic, and by the way they have said they are going to the classic. unlike quality and rachel. heck we don't know what race rachel is gonna show up for until she's in the paddock :lol: and you want zen to ship to race her?Is there a direct quote stating Zenyatta is going to the Classic?

[letswastemoney]

If Quality Road loses one race, I imagine Zenyatta will be entered in the Distaff, or retired before the BC

[only11]

Why should he? He can race for just as much money on real dirt.
C'mon CJ its not about you or me...its about whats best for Z,QR,RT...Shirreffs doesnt care what we think..he cares about what best for her..
If she wins her next 2 outings before the cup..she will run in the classic...while RA runs in the distaff..
By the way make sure you find tomatoe cans to paste before the BC Cup..!

[PaceAdvantage]

If she wins her next 2 outings before the cup..she will run in the classic...while RA runs in the distaff..Now why in the world would RA run in the distaff? She has nothing to gain running against a group of tomato cans. We know she can beat them.

No sir. If she's healthy and in training, they'll take their shot in the BC Classic along with everyone else. And if they lose, so be it.

Now, if Zenyatta chooses to go in the Distaff, then I might see RA opting for that easier spot, simply because there is something to be achieved.

But a Zenyatta-less Distaff would be a waste of time for RA.

[chickenhead]

neither of these girls connects is going to get away with running in the Distaff if the other goes for the Classic. They would be pilloried (whatever that means).

[Cratos]

Now why in the world would RA run in the distaff? She has nothing to gain running against a group of tomato cans. We know she can beat them.

No sir. If she's healthy and in training, they'll take their shot in the BC Classic along with everyone else. And if they lose, so be it.

Now, if Zenyatta chooses to go in the Distaff, then I might see RA opting for that easier spot, simply because there is something to be achieved.

But a Zenyatta-less Distaff would be a waste of time for RA.

If Zenyatta goes in the Distaff and I owned Rachel I would enter her in the Distaff for two reason: (1) the 1 1/8 miles might be Rachel’s best distance and (2) She has shown a liking for Churchill Downs.

[jonnielu]

If Zenyatta goes in the Distaff and I owned Rachel I would enter her in the Distaff for two reason: (1) the 1 1/8 miles might be Rachel’s best distance and (2) She has shown a liking for Churchill Downs.

Then, it would also be suicide to go in the classic if QR and Zenyatta are there. At CD, there won't be any excuses.

jdl

[Cratos]

Then, it would also be suicide to go in the classic if QR and Zenyatta are there. At CD, there won't be any excuses.

jdl

If by chance Zenyatta is retired (hope not) before the BC races I find it difficult to believe that a healthy and fit Rachel can beat a healthy and fit Quality Road. Also if Summer Bird returns and is in top form Rachel will face a difficult task to win the BC Classic.

[andymays]

If by chance Zenyatta is retired (hope not) before the BC races I find it difficult to believe that a healthy and fit Rachel can beat a healthy and fit Quality Road. Also if Summer Bird returns and is in top form Rachel will face a difficult task to win the BC Classic.


Summer Bird is gone for good. I Want Revenge is a possibility and is doing well. He is near a race soon.

[only11]

Summer Bird is gone for good. I Want Revenge is a possibility and is doing well. He is near a race soon.
Boy everyones in love with QR...Let see him a bit more before we pencil him in the hall of fame..

[andymays]

Boy everyones in love with QR...Let see him a bit more before we pencil him in the hall of fame..


He would destroy Zenyatta two turning at a mile and one eighth or a mile and one quarter on the dirt in my opinion. She would make a move at him and he would draw away from her. Especially if he clears off on a medium pace. Just my opinion.

[only11]

He would destroy Zenyatta two turning at a mile and one eighth or a mile and one quarter on the dirt in my opinion. She would make a move at him and he would draw away from her. Especially if he clears off on a medium pace. Just my opinion.
What would make you think QR could get 1 1/4?

[andymays]

What would make you think QR could get 1 1/4?


What would make you think QR couldn't get 1 1/4?

[only11]

What would make you think QR couldn't get 1 1/4?
I will make you a bet...Andy..
I will bet you $100 bucks QR doesnt even make it to CD.

[andymays]

I will make you a bet...Andy..
I will bet you $100 bucks QR doesnt even make it to CD.


Why don't you think so?

[only11]

Why don't you think so?
IMO i know im going to get killed for this,,,,i think he a horse who has major issues staying healthy..

[andymays]

IMO i know im going to get killed for this,,,,i think he a horse who has major issues staying healthy..

Mentally or physically?

I think Pletcher has him straightened out in all areas.

[Hedevar]

IMO i know im going to get killed for this,,,,i think he a horse who has major issues staying healthy..

I don't know why you would make a statement like that after your classy Ruffian post last weekend.

[Grits]

IMO i know im going to get killed for this,,,,i think he a horse who has major issues staying healthy..

Not in the grandstand two Mondays ago, huh?

Don't think I've ever seen a racehorse so unhealthy and so messed up, run so damn fast!!! LOLOLOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

This is a foolish statement; I hate it for ya.:lol: This one may come back to getcha.

[PurplePower]

And again, we are talking dirt here...if you are going to invoke the greatest names of the 1970s that you have to go back to in order to find horses GREATER than Zenyatta, then you are talking dirt.
You sometimes make a comment about posts being "silly". Any discussion of "all time great" racehorses means we will go back beyone 2004 when we only had dirt or turf (except for the Equtrack "freaks" that raced at Remington in the early 90's). That doesn't say that dirt is BETTER, its says it was the only "alternative surface" of the "original standard" -TURF (if we go back before racing in this country we are talking GRASS). (Ok -- now I've joined the silly section! :D )

On dirt, Zenyatta loses to Bayakoa. Not only did I not have to go back to the 1970s to find a better horse, I didn't even have to go to the male side of the ledger...
Two observations PA. One, Bayakoa won 21 of 39 finished second 9 times and did not finish third. She either won or was off the board. Also she was "borderline insane" and was her own worst enemy sometimes. She raced mostly on the other side of the Rockies (though she did venture east more times than Zen has - winning her two BC distaff races at GP and BELMONT.) Did you get to see her at Belmont? I saw her live in California and she was a tough looking (slightly crooked) racemare. If you did see her race that day I'm not surprised you have strong feeling about her ability. And that brings me to point 2.

A definitive, absolute statement like "Zenyatta loses to Bayakoa" is not "provable". We can bring out figures of both horses, some computer genius can make a computer "simulation" and run them against each other "virtually", but until they both show up at the same track in their prime we only have our opinions or the computer's "educated guess". If I say, IMO Zenyatta would beat Bayakoa on any surface because Bayakoa had a documented history of erratic behavior and the crowd would be so intense she might not hold it together, would give a basis for my opinion, but is still not provable. Just another boat paddle in the crawfish pot!

[Tom]

I think only11 is right- QR will not last the season. Just a gut feeling.
Unless he runs once every four months.

[PurplePower]

Now why in the world would RA run in the distaff? She has nothing to gain running against a group of tomato cans. We know she can beat them.

No sir. If she's healthy and in training, they'll take their shot in the BC Classic along with everyone else. And if they lose, so be it.

Now, if Zenyatta chooses to go in the Distaff, then I might see RA opting for that easier spot, simply because there is something to be achieved.

But a Zenyatta-less Distaff would be a waste of time for RA.
I agree with this assessment 100%. If they both make it undefeated (from here on out) and QR loses one, I'd suspect they both go in the Distaff - neither owner "needs" the purse money, but if they don't face each other they allow their nemesis to win HOY and continue the argument for eternity. If QR and Rail Trip win out, I think both females go in the classic because QR would be tough to beat for HOY if he won classic while the girls knocked heads in the distaff. That's MY preferred scenario. And, I'll find 4 more I'd like to be in there.

[Spalding No!]

Two observations PA. One, Bayakoa won 21 of 39 finished second 9 times and did not finish third. She either won or was off the board.

Let me get this straight. 9 seconds in 39 starts (nearly 1/4) is evidence that Bayakoa was "all or nothing"? Given she won over half her starts, she was 1-2 in over 3/4s of her races.

An "all or nothing" horse rarely places at all if it does not win. I couple of good examples would have been War Emblem, Houston, or Private Terms, maybe Commentator.

[tzipi]

That was a joke...QR could run against Rail Trip can he?Same sex?

C'mon that was NOT a joke.

[Greyfox]

Let me get this straight. 9 seconds in 39 starts (nearly 1/4) is evidence that Bayakoa was "all or nothing"? Given she won over half her starts, she was 1-2 in over 3/4s of her races.

.

Spalding No! You and I haven't agreed often. But you've raised a good question. :ThmbUp:

[PurplePower]

Let me get this straight. 9 seconds in 39 starts (nearly 1/4) is evidence that Bayakoa was "all or nothing"? Given she won over half her starts, she was 1-2 in over 3/4s of her races.

An "all or nothing" horse rarely places at all if it does not win. I couple of good examples would have been War Emblem, Houston, or Private Terms, maybe Commentator.
Yeah -- my "she either won or off the board" would have more appropriately been stated as "she either won or finished second or was off the board". That fantastic record 30 of 39 times in top 2, but no thirds was an interesting skew. She was a great race mare that either won or was contesting for the win in 30 of 39 and off the board in the other nine. I definitely did not intend to suggest the seconds were "nothing", but did so by leaving out those words. :blush:

[classhandicapper]

They know where to find Quality Road.

Does team Rachel Alexandra know where to find Quality Road? .

I mean they will already be Saratoga together?

I suspect shipping a mare 3000 miles to face the best colt in training is an expectation for Zenyatta and not one for a horse that will already be training with him.

[KingChas]

"Stay tuned, as Smith says, there is still more there."

All I can say is she does just enough to keep winning.
Albeit <A>.
Never squeeze's the lemon dry.
Hard to knock.

[classhandicapper]

Steve D found out about this discussion and sent me this note.

" When my brother sent me a Google reference to the post on the pace advantage site, I even registered to formulate a reply, but could not somehow get past the registration process.
Actually that's for the best; getting involved in these forums is an open license for many merely to take shots and I have no desire to get into a contest with anyone about the worth of my opinions, or handicapping ideas or the value of my books, etc. I answer all E-mails directly about any aspect of my work in their proper forums and will do so when I open up GradeOneRacing.com next month as well.
As for Zenyatta, I wrote what I meant, and while I am happy to buttress my views with facts and observations, I've already written several columns and blog notes about Zenyatta's attributes including her rare if not unprecedented ability to negate pace issues. I for one never have seen that in any deep closer before, not once.

As for my work---recent and past--- I am proud of my contributions via 'Betting Thoroughbreds' in all its different editions, including the present "BT for the 21St Century" and I will let stand on their own merits my columns on handicapping ideas published in at least 30 different newspapers through the years and currently in DRF.

Frankly I can do without arguments about where I stand as a good or bad racing writer, as I respect Steve Crist, Andy Beyer, James Quinn, Mark Cramer and others who have put their best ideas in print, as much as anyone. As a player-public handicapper, etc. I have bad days and good ones and likewise write well and sometimes poorly. (I even struck out 20 times in succession in Little League before I hit safely in 19 out of my next 40 at bats, which taught me a lesson about weaknesses and strengths I've carried with me ever since.

At the bottom line, I willingly encourage those who populate the discussion forums to find their own ways to make whatever contributions they have to offer and continue to be amazed at how easily a good point or a good post can be attacked for no rational reason, at least no positive reason I can fathom.

But Wayne, I take no offense from your posting, in this case. But again, in the future should you desire to share my work with this and/or any other public forum intact, please clear it with me and or the publication involved. Thanks for posting this, regards/Steve Davidowitz. . .Davidwtz@aol.comand/or Steve@GradeOneRacing.com

[tzipi]

Does team Rachel Alexandra know where to find Quality Road? .

I mean they will already be Saratoga together?

I suspect shipping a mare 3000 miles to face the best colt in training is an expectation for Zenyatta and not one for a horse that will already be training with him.

They should bring in Goldikova to Saratoga. Those connections have no problem shipping her all over the world to beat the best, including males.

[classhandicapper]

Best race mare of his lifetime. Has he forgotten Bayakoa for starters? Mind boggling.

And again, we are talking dirt here...if you are going to invoke the greatest names of the 1970s that you have to go back to in order to find horses GREATER than Zenyatta, then you are talking dirt.

On dirt, Zenyatta loses to Bayakoa. Not only did I not have to go back to the 1970s to find a better horse, I didn't even have to go to the male side of the ledger...

I can't speak for others, but I know that I often speak in relative terms.

I think Miesque was a better horse than Bayakoa even though I think Bayakoa would probably beat Miesque on dirt.

I'm not sure if Zenyatta would beat Bayakoa on dirt either, but I feel confident she's the better horse.

[KingChas]

I can't speak for others, but I know that I often speak in relative terms.



Sometimes I wonder....................... :confused:
If todays best horses would be the,"Tomato Cans",for the past greats?
Or visa-versa.............. :D

[PaceAdvantage]

You sometimes make a comment about posts being "silly". Any discussion of "all time great" racehorses means we will go back beyone 2004 when we only had dirt or turf (except for the Equtrack "freaks" that raced at Remington in the early 90's). That doesn't say that dirt is BETTER, its says it was the only "alternative surface" of the "original standard" -TURF (if we go back before racing in this country we are talking GRASS). (Ok -- now I've joined the silly section! :D )I've never claimed dirt was better than synthetics or vice versa. My position is that synthetics are brand new to the game, and thus they are at present a curious sideshow. That is how I view them. Is that also why I am not totally sold on Zenyatta's historic greatness until she makes a go of it against serious racehorses on the dirt? Of course that is part of it...but only a part mind you.

And I don't think this is an outrageous position to take. In fact, I find my view on Zenyatta to be quite reasonable and rational and objective. But of course, I'm naturally biased in favor of my own opinion. Others obviously find my opinion quite nutty, but that's OK. I've been living with that kind of criticism for 10 years now, and they still keep coming back for more...

[PaceAdvantage]

Steve D found out about this discussion and sent me this note.

" When my brother sent me a Google reference to the post on the pace advantage site, I even registered to formulate a reply, but could not somehow get past the registration process.If Steve ever reconsiders, tell him I just personally validated his registration, and would love to have him come on and participate.

I would guarantee him that there would be no "shots" fired his way, and if there are, they will be removed promptly.

[OntheRail]

Sometimes I wonder....................... :confused:
If todays best horses would be the,"Tomato Cans",for the past greats?
Or visa-versa.............. :D
In the past they would be call canning jars. :lol:

[KingChas]

This question is not pointed at any particular forum member.

What if Zenyatta remains undefeated.
Wins the 2010 BC Classic on dirt at CD.
Defeats RA,QR,etc. and all foreign comers then retires?

Perhaps this should have been a poll?
What is enough?

[PaceAdvantage]

This question is not pointed at any particular forum member.

What if Zenyatta remains undefeated.
Wins the 2010 BC Classic on dirt at CD.
Defeats RA,QR,etc. and all foreign comers then retires?

Perhaps this should have been a poll?
What is enough?It's this type of response that blows my mind.

Allow me to explain. When it comes to Zenyatta, even though you might think so, those of us who have been a tad critical of her competition really DON'T lose all of our handicapping sensibilities when we hear her name.

[KingChas]

What is enough?

Apologies for the difficult Question. ;)

[JustRalph]

Find a field like RA faced in the Woodward, on Dirt and she beats them...... I would then call her equal to Rachel.........

Hell, she might be better than Rachel, but her connections haven't proved it. I still think we haven't seen her best race, and due to her connections we probably won't. Not to mention, at her age now.....her best was probably a couple years ago...... and that sucks............

[KingChas]

Find a field like RA faced in the Woodward, on Dirt and she beats them...... I would then call her equal to Rachel.........

...........

Of course your talking 2009.........right?

[WinterTriangle]

However, when a writer with Davidowitz' stature says:
"she is the best race mare of my lifetime,"

I consider that to be quite a pronouncement. He's bin der dun dat.


I dunno if it was quite a pronouncement, but it sure seemed to generate responses that veered far-afield, getting into how Steve D is "slipping lately", "mediocre", "repetitive", "overhyped" and a "bit off", (to quote just a few of the phrases). It was almost starting to seem as if Steve's entire career was in danger of being picked apart on the basis of one sentence. :D

I would love to see Steve D. post here, but under better circumstances when a feeding frenzy is not going on, and when his comment (not his career and accomplishments) can be evaluated, sleuced, and discussed. I'm sure his instincts tell him the same.

[WinterTriangle]

Some, too, are wise enough to understand that staying in California on synthetics--ain't gonna get it. Ever. Not where history is written.


I personally cannot jump to that conclusion, Grits, although I agree that "some" will.


One of the hallmarks of history is that historians are perennially renewing it and making it relevant to new constituencies and new concepts.

That would include, of course, synthetic surfaces. While certain sportsfans may filter and interpret events based on a dirt-bias, we cannot predict that history will. That would be a huge assumption, because we do not even know the future of synthetic surfaces, or that even the KY Derby won't one day be run on it (gasp!). History evaluates collectively, and eventually, even more objectively thru the eyeglass of time, perspective, and of course, era.

Like somebody said, it ain't 1960 anymore.

Besides, nobody can predict in the present, how history will view an event or an individual, since by it's very essence, it is the study of the past. And we haven't gotten there yet. :)

But certainly, a politicized evalution of Zenyatta is not going to yield any sort of truth, IMHO.



On a separate note, I did get a kick out of Jay Hovdey's comment: "Even the Mona Lisa toured the world."

The Mona Lisa is not flesh and blood. As a person who has shipped and travelled with 3 (very large) dogs across the country a few times, I challenge Hovdey to try it......I'll shepherd the painting, and we'll compare notes afterwards.:D

[Track Phantom]

I'm sure most of you wont appreciate this, but I was a Canterbury Downs regular for many years.

This is Davidowitz talking about the Canterbury meet in 1987 in which he was the main public 'capper in Minnesota for a few years.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2yTb4ngkCM&feature=related

In my opinion, I don't always agree with everything from Davidowitz but he is one of the all time greats and I learned more from his writing than anywhere else.

[only11]

I don't know why you would make a statement like that after your classy Ruffian post last weekend.
I never said anything about Ruffian in any way...If i did please remind me..

[only11]

Not in the grandstand two Mondays ago, huh?

Don't think I've ever seen a racehorse so unhealthy and so messed up, run so damn fast!!! LOLOLOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

This is a foolish statement; I hate it for ya.:lol: This one may come back to getcha.
Wait that doesnt mean he healthy...hes a fast horse ...ok ..now what...!my opinion..i dont care what pletcher says about "we have him straight now"..Before you put him in the hall of fame lets wait and see some more...THATS ALL IM SAYING..

[Hedevar]

whats Ruffians excuse?
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/images/statusicon/user_online.gif http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/images/buttons/green/report.gif (http://report.php?p=914890)

I never said anything about Ruffian in any way...If i did please remind me..

The above was a comment you made as to why Ruffian did not travel to race in the Why not Criticize Pletcher-Ellis? Facts! thread. Read it youself. Check out your own posts and the context.

[Tom]

Does team Rachel Alexandra know where to find Quality Road? .

I mean they will already be Saratoga together?

I suspect shipping a mare 3000 miles to face the best colt in training is an expectation for Zenyatta and not one for a horse that will already be training with him.

Good point, Class. Now that RA is back, facing anything less than Gr1 males on dirt shall be considered ducking.

[FenceBored]

Good point, Class. Now that RA is back, facing anything less than Gr1 males on dirt shall be considered ducking.

Now, Tom? There have been posts around here for the past 4-5 months saying that already.

[FenceBored]

Boy everyones in love with QR...Let see him a bit more before we pencil him in the hall of fame..

What are you, some QR hater? Why can't you appreciate all he's done? WHAT MORE DOES HE HAVE TO DO?! :faint:

[Cardus]

I dunno if it was quite a pronouncement, but it sure seemed to generate responses that veered far-afield, getting into how Steve D is "slipping lately", "mediocre", "repetitive", "overhyped" and a "bit off", (to quote just a few of the phrases). It was almost starting to seem as if Steve's entire career was in danger of being picked apart on the basis of one sentence. :D

I would love to see Steve D. post here, but under better circumstances when a feeding frenzy is not going on, and when his comment (not his career and accomplishments) can be evaluated, sleuced, and discussed. I'm sure his instincts tell him the same.

How could you possibly know this?

[Hedevar]

What are you, some QR hater? Why can't you appreciate all he's done? WHAT MORE DOES HE HAVE TO DO?! :faint:

Consider the source. This is the same poster who wondered why Ruffian didn't travel and race after she had been euthanized.

[comet52]

You are right about forums, Steve D. The anonymity unleashes the worst in people. Good read about Zenyatta as well, thanks.

Steve D found out about this discussion and sent me this note.

" When my brother sent me a Google reference to the post on the pace advantage site, I even registered to formulate a reply, but could not somehow get past the registration process.
Actually that's for the best; getting involved in these forums is an open license for many merely to take shots and I have no desire to get into a contest with anyone about the worth of my opinions, or handicapping ideas or the value of my books, etc. I answer all E-mails directly about any aspect of my work in their proper forums and will do so when I open up GradeOneRacing.com next month as well.
As for Zenyatta, I wrote what I meant, and while I am happy to buttress my views with facts and observations, I've already written several columns and blog notes about Zenyatta's attributes including her rare if not unprecedented ability to negate pace issues. I for one never have seen that in any deep closer before, not once.

As for my work---recent and past--- I am proud of my contributions via 'Betting Thoroughbreds' in all its different editions, including the present "BT for the 21St Century" and I will let stand on their own merits my columns on handicapping ideas published in at least 30 different newspapers through the years and currently in DRF.

Frankly I can do without arguments about where I stand as a good or bad racing writer, as I respect Steve Crist, Andy Beyer, James Quinn, Mark Cramer and others who have put their best ideas in print, as much as anyone. As a player-public handicapper, etc. I have bad days and good ones and likewise write well and sometimes poorly. (I even struck out 20 times in succession in Little League before I hit safely in 19 out of my next 40 at bats, which taught me a lesson about weaknesses and strengths I've carried with me ever since.

At the bottom line, I willingly encourage those who populate the discussion forums to find their own ways to make whatever contributions they have to offer and continue to be amazed at how easily a good point or a good post can be attacked for no rational reason, at least no positive reason I can fathom.

But Wayne, I take no offense from your posting, in this case. But again, in the future should you desire to share my work with this and/or any other public forum intact, please clear it with me and or the publication involved. Thanks for posting this, regards/Steve Davidowitz. . .Davidwtz@aol.comand/or Steve@GradeOneRacing.com

[cj]

Well, I'm pretty sure once the article was posted on an offshore betting site (hmmm, isn't that taboo for many here?) class or anyone else can post a link to it without requesting his permission.

[Stevie Belmont]

Well that's the plan 1 or 2 more races before the Cup. He had quarter crack issues last year, but he seems to have put those issues behind him. Hopefully they don't comeback.

He is being campaigned wisely. The main goal has always been the BC Classic. Anything can happen to any horse in regards to health. I see nothing at this time to think he won't be fit and sound going into the BC.


I think only11 is right- QR will not last the season. Just a gut feeling.
Unless he runs once every four months.

[classhandicapper]

Well, I'm pretty sure once the article was posted on an offshore betting site (hmmm, isn't that taboo for many here?) class or anyone else can post a link to it without requesting his permission.

CJ,

I have a good handicapping relationship with Steve that I value.

When I posted it I thought I was actually doing him a favor by promoting him while also reinforcing some of my own opinions with those of a highly regarded handicapper.

He seems to prefer to have his work discussed via email and at his new web site (GradeOneRacing) that will be started shortly in order to avoid the nonsense that sometimes occur in these forums to which he no longer wants to respond. I understand his perspective. I apologized to him. He was totally cool about it. And I will respect his wishes in the future.

[cj]

CJ,

I have a good handicapping relationship with Steve that I value.

When I posted it I thought I was actually doing him a favor by promoting him while also reinforcing some of my own opinions with those of a highly regarded handicapper.

He seems to prefer to have his work discussed via email and at his new web site (GradeOneRacing) that will be started shortly in order to avoid the nonsense that sometimes occur in these forums to which he no longer wants to respond. I understand his perspective. I apologized to him. He was totally cool about it. And I will respect his wishes in the future.

I totally understand that. I was just making the point that anyone could find a publicly posted article and post a link here. It makes for good discussion.

[Robert Goren]

Do you have any idea on when his site will be active?

[cj]

Do you have any idea on when his site will be active?

The real Bobby would have seen this:

...so when I open up GradeOneRacing.com next month as well.

[andymays]

CJ,

I have a good handicapping relationship with Steve that I value.

When I posted it I thought I was actually doing him a favor by promoting him while also reinforcing some of my own opinions with those of a highly regarded handicapper.

He seems to prefer to have his work discussed via email and at his new web site (GradeOneRacing) that will be started shortly in order to avoid the nonsense that sometimes occur in these forums to which he no longer wants to respond. I understand his perspective. I apologized to him. He was totally cool about it. And I will respect his wishes in the future.

Class, you have no reason to apologize to him because the article was posted publicly for all to see.

Steve is an important figure in Horse Racing and along with a few others basically helped educate a generation of ignorant Horseplayers and I would count myself as one of them. I am grateful for and appreciate his past work.

It is also apparent that Steve is a little thin skinned when it comes to people disagreeing with him at all.

[Robert Goren]

The real Bobby would have seen this::blush: Yes, he would have.

[Stevie Belmont]

Steve Davidowitz's Betting Thoroughbreds is a book I reccomend to people who are interested, or just getting into horse racing. I find it to be a very good introduction to racing.

[Grits]

May one suggest, please, prior to posting any links to www.gradeoneracing.com (http://www.gradeoneracing.com/)-- retain permission from Mr.Davidowitz. There's bound to be a violation somewhere in failing to do so. One may find an infomercial for the new site at BoDog, though, not all of us have a lot of love for offshore bet shops, parasitic as they are to their host, thoroughbred racing.

I understand and am indeed grateful to him for his contribution to racing, and too, for his desire to try and exercise some control over that contribution. (Still, this time, its not a publishing house or a book, its cyberland, so continued good luck on that one.) Making clear his opinion and his reticence with racing forums/messageboards, this has to be respected. It has been easily clarifed by his drop in visit.

As much as I respect Mr.Davidowitz, I also respect this site and Mike's and his moderators ability to run it for the past ten years. It too, has made a fine contribution to handicappers and fans of the sport. Contributions are valued, whether one is authoring books, writing a column, commentating as a public handicapper, or sharing knowledge one has gained throughout their own years of betting--it is all good for the sport.

Thank you Mr.Davidowitz for dropping by, and good luck with your new site.

[kenwoodall2]

You certainly said a mouthful, of which I will post small parts for critique purposes: " One may find an infomercial for the new site at BoDog, though, not all of us have a lot of love for offshore bet shops, parasitic as they are to their host, thoroughbred racing.

I understand and am indeed grateful to him for his contribution to racing, and too, for his desire to try and exercise some control over that contribution. (Still, this time, its not a publishing house or a book, its cyberland, so continued good luck on that one.)"
I hope this thread stays up, as an example of critiquing, opinions, and drifting!
IMHO- One of the best things about cyberland is that there is more freedom to opine and critique without as much worry about actually getting thumped on legally for violating anything!
SD makes at least part of his living from multiple venues of writing, and his professional reputaion is due at least partly to his words. Excuse me for redboarding this thread, but I will admit that I have a biased view in favor of Steve Davidowitz, since what I have paid to read his works compared to my cost means that overall I have a very positive betting ROI thanks to SD! :jump:

[Cardus]

Grits-WOW!
You certainly said a mouthful,


It is an involuntary exercise for Grits, like breathing.

[PaceAdvantage]

Good point, Class. Now that RA is back, facing anything less than Gr1 males on dirt shall be considered ducking.Actually, not. Nobody is calling her one of the all-time best.

[thaskalos]

Actually, not. Nobody is calling her one of the all-time best. The vast majority of the Rachel fans deny that Zenyatta is the better horse (especially now that Rachel is "back"). And yet, they insist that Zenyatta take the "ambitious" road to the BC Classic, while Rachel is living off the reputation of a year ago.

We understand that she wasn't herself until now. But now that she is...the same ambitious campaign should be expected of her.

[Grits]

Grits-WOW!
You certainly said a mouthful,


It is an involuntary exercise for Grits, like breathing.

Cardus, you old curmudgeon, how much coffee did you have to drink, getting back up after lunch, before you realized you'd spelled my name wrong? I let it sit there for hours, hoping you'd gather your wits. You came through, and being generous . . . . I changed your grade to an B+ on this one.

[PaceAdvantage]

The vast majority of the Rachel fans deny that Zenyatta is the better horse (especially now that Rachel is "back"). And yet, they insist that Zenyatta take the "ambitious" road to the BC Classic, while Rachel is living off the reputation of a year ago.It was my belief (and I posted such) that Rachel would beat Zenyatta going 9 furlongs on dirt EVEN BEFORE Rachel won her last race. I would have taken Rachel over Zenyatta on dirt just going on Rachel's form from her first two races this year.

Until Zenyatta proves she can handle the best on the dirt, I don't think this is an unreasonable position, especially from a handicapping point of view.

[letswastemoney]

The vast majority of the Rachel fans deny that Zenyatta is the better horse (especially now that Rachel is "back"). And yet, they insist that Zenyatta take the "ambitious" road to the BC Classic, while Rachel is living off the reputation of a year ago.

We understand that she wasn't herself until now. But now that she is...the same ambitious campaign should be expected of her.
We insist Zenyatta take the "ambitious road" because Zenyatta fans more often than not have stated she can beat anyone on any surface.

Rachel shouldn't even be part of the discussion when analyzing Zenyatta's campaign. Zenyatta's schedule is boring, regardless of what Rachel does.

[Show Me the Wire]

It was my belief (and I posted such) that Rachel would beat Zenyatta going 9 furlongs on dirt EVEN BEFORE Rachel won her last race. I would have taken Rachel over Zenyatta on dirt just going on Rachel's form from her first two races this year.

Until Zenyatta proves she can handle the best on the dirt, I don't think this is an unreasonable position, especially from a handicapping point of view.


May I ask who is the "best" on dirt?

Statements like the above, about beating the best on dirt are the problem. Let's define who is the best on dirt as RA will have to prove the same because earning high speed figures with out winning does not equate to best on dirt.

For all we know pro-ride may be RA's best surface.

[thaskalos]

It was my belief (and I posted such) that Rachel would beat Zenyatta going 9 furlongs on dirt EVEN BEFORE Rachel won her last race. I would have taken Rachel over Zenyatta on dirt just going on Rachel's form from her first two races this year.

Until Zenyatta proves she can handle the best on the dirt, I don't think this is an unreasonable position, especially from a handicapping point of view. This part IS REASONABLE. The unreasonable part has to do with the differing expectations of the two horses FROM NOW ON!

Zenyatta should go hunt down Quality Road and Rail Trip. What should Rachel do from now on, in your opinion? Or does the fact that Rachel defeated Grade 1 male horses, on dirt, A YEAR AGO mean that she gets a free pass, as far as this year is concerned!

[thaskalos]

We insist Zenyatta take the "ambitious road" because Zenyatta fans more often than not have stated she can beat anyone on any surface.

Rachel shouldn't even be part of the discussion when analyzing Zenyatta's campaign. Zenyatta's schedule is boring, regardless of what Rachel does. Zenyatta's schedule is boring...would you discribe Rachel's schedule this year as exciting?

Look...we have 2 great female horses. No one knows which one is better on dirt. One is expected to go up against the best horses in training today...what should the other do?

Give a straight answer for once!

[letswastemoney]

Zenyatta's schedule is boring...would you discribe Rachel's schedule this year as exciting?

Look...we have 2 great female horses. No one knows which one is better on dirt. One is expected to go up against the best horses in training today...what should the other do?

Give a straight answer for once!
No Rachel's schedule isn't that exciting either so far.

I think Rachel should be in races like the Woodward, JCGC as well. I wouldn't guarantee victory for Rachel, but I know she'd be competitive and probably finish in the money in most of them.

Both schedules are boring.

[PaceAdvantage]

This part IS REASONABLE. The unreasonable part has to do with the differing expectations of the two horses FROM NOW ON!

Zenyatta should go hunt down Quality Road and Rail Trip. What should Rachel do from now on, in your opinion? Or does the fact that Rachel defeated Grade 1 male horses, on dirt, A YEAR AGO mean that she gets a free pass, as far as this year is concerned!I think I can answer both you and Show Me The Wire at the same time by first asking why in the world Rachel is even thrust into this conversation so frequently lately?

Unlike last year, when Rachel was essentially the best horse on dirt of ANY sex, this year is different, and there appears to be multiple challengers to the title of best dirt horse, Rachel of course being one...but her slow start has essentially placed her in the category of "one of many" and not "the one"....that may change, but until it does, I don't see why she is constantly brought up as some sort of counter-argument.

[thaskalos]

I think I can answer both you and Show Me The Wire at the same time by first asking why in the world Rachel is even thrust into this conversation so frequently lately?

Unlike last year, when Rachel was essentially the best horse on dirt of ANY sex, this year is different, and there appears to be multiple challengers to the title of best dirt horse, Rachel of course being one...but her slow start has essentially placed her in the category of "one of many" and not "the one"....that may change, but until it does, I don't see why she is constantly brought up as some sort of counter-argument. This is an answer to my question? As Dehoss would say...this is a deflection!

You said that you think Rachel is BETTER than Zenyatta ON DIRT. If this is indeed the case - and it may well be - then what is the excuse for Rachel not facing Quality Road and Rail Trip, if Zenyatta is expected to...

You are asking why Rachel is "even thrust into this conversation".

Why not? Are we going back to Zenyatta posts and Rachel posts again?

[Spalding No!]

Look...we have 2 great female horses. No one knows which one is better on dirt. One is expected to go up against the best horses in training today...what should the other do?

I don't think Rachel Alexandra has done enough this year to justify stepping out of her division to run against colts. It can be argued that she would have won the Stephen Foster last Saturday, but I'd rather see a second race validating her form, preferably against a more solid field (ie Unrivaled Belle, Life At Ten, etc.). She hasn't dominated her division even regionally, and is nowhere close to staking a claim as a finalist for the distaff Eclipse for 2010.

Zenyatta meanwhile continues to remarkably maintain her top form. She has reigned supreme in the CA distaff division for 3 years straight. Her wins within that division at this point add little to her resume other than the extra "one" combined into her win column. She is the clear frontrunner to win yet another distaff Eclipse. Thus, she should step out of her division in one of two ways: (1) tackle the distaff division in another region (ie Delaware Handicap, Saratoga) or (2) face males at home (ie Hollywood Gold Cup, Pacific Classic). Were she to do both at the same time (ie Whitney, Woodward, etc.) she'd have a stranglehold on HOY as well.

[thaskalos]

I don't think Rachel Alexandra has done enough this year to justify stepping out of her division to run against colts. It can be argued that she would have won the Stephen Foster last Saturday, but I'd rather see a second race validating her form, preferably against a more solid field (ie Unrivaled Belle, Life At Ten, etc.). She hasn't dominated her division even regionally, and is nowhere close to staking a claim as a finalist for the distaff Eclipse for 2010.

Zenyatta meanwhile continues to remarkably maintain her top form. She has reigned supreme in the CA distaff division for 3 years straight. Her wins within that division at this point add little to her resume other than the extra "one" combined into her win column. She is the clear frontrunner to win yet another distaff Eclipse. Thus, she should step out of her division in one of two ways: (1) tackle the distaff division in another region (ie Delaware Handicap, Saratoga) or (2) face males at home (ie Hollywood Gold Cup, Pacific Classic). Were she to do both at the same time (ie Whitney, Woodward, etc.) she'd have a stranglehold on HOY as well. I agree with your post completely!

I was referring to PA because he wasn't as apprehensive as you seem to be about Rachel's current abilities.

He stated that he thought Rachel would defeat Zenyatta ON DIRT, even before he saw Rachel's last race.

If that is the case, then there should be no problem if Rachel and Zenyatta followed the same sort of campaign on the road to the BC Classic.

[PaceAdvantage]

What Spalding No! said goes ditto for me...

I don't know how many times we have to repeat ourselves in order to satisfy some people...how many different ways do we have to state the obvious?

I may have the opinion that Rachel is better than Zenyatta on dirt, but that doesn't mean I feel Rachel should be campaigned right now as if she is the best horse in training...she obviously has not done enough to warrant such ambitions.

Am I writing in a language other than English? :lol:

[thaskalos]

I may have the opinion that Rachel is better than Zenyatta on dirt, but that doesn't mean I feel Rachel should be campaigned right now as if she is the best horse in training...she obviously has not done enough to warrant such ambitions.

Am I writing in a language other than English? :lol: English is not my weakness...as I have stated before. YOUR comments are the ones that contadict each other!

Look at your statement shown above...

Your opinion is that Rachel is better than Zenyatta on dirt...but that doesn't mean that she should be campaigned as if she is the best horse in training.

Zenyatta, on the other hand, although inferior to Rachel on dirt in your opinion...SHOULD go and hunt down Quality Road and Rail Trip...as if SHE is the best horse in training.

I know, I know...some Zenyatta fans have called her the second-coming of Secretariat.

Well...there are idiot fans in both camps...some Rachel freaks have called Zenyatta another Peppers Pride too...

[Pick6]

It is obviously clear that if Z goes undefeated along with a BCC win she will be hands-down HOY. Nobody can seriously argue anything different.

As an owner or trainer, that + the $$$ from the BCC is all that is on my mind. Anything else is just noise and should be ignored.

[FenceBored]

It is obviously clear that if Z goes undefeated along with a BCC win she will be hands-down HOY. Nobody can seriously argue anything different.


That turns out not to be the case.

[Pick6]

That turns out not to be the case.
Defend?

[kenwoodall2]

I take back anything I might have said in the past about the vast majority being bettors but not true racing "fans"- at least with Z and RA horseplayers are proving they are true fans! They are so popular that even PETA is running scared that these two runners will strenthen racing by racing each other!

[only11]

What are you, some QR hater? Why can't you appreciate all he's done? WHAT MORE DOES HE HAVE TO DO?! :faint:
Dont hate horses Fence,but some of you guys are overrating QR..
Its funny how you say WHAT MORE DOES A HORSE HAVE TO DO AND SOME STILL CRITICIZE ZENYATTA...now thats funny.,.

[only11]

whats Ruffians excuse?
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/images/statusicon/user_online.gif http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/images/buttons/green/report.gif (http://report.php?p=914890)



The above was a comment you made as to why Ruffian did not travel to race in the Why not Criticize Pletcher-Ellis? Facts! thread. Read it youself. Check out your own posts and the context.
Yes but it wasnt directed in any negative way...i was responding to posts about horses never shipping..

[Spalding No!]

Defend?

I believe the poster is referring to the 2009 season, where in fact Zenyatta went undefeated including a BC Classic win and yet failed to earn HOY honors.

She has a good chance this year without as no horse to this point has put on a display worthy of the title.

Of course, in that instance, if there's nothing to prod Team Zenyatta to try the BC Classic, there's a distinct possiblity that they continue on the path of least resistance and enter the BC Distaff.

Probably depends on Quality Road winning one or both of his Saratoga starts and then moving on into the BC Classic as the favorite.

[bigmack]

I'm confused; how have 14,727 members been able to get past the registration process here?

[Pick6]

I believe the poster is referring to the 2009 season, where in fact Zenyatta went undefeated including a BC Classic win and yet failed to earn HOY honors.

She has a good chance this year without as no horse to this point has put on a display worthy of the title.

Of course, in that instance, if there's nothing to prod Team Zenyatta to try the BC Classic, there's a distinct possiblity that they continue on the path of least resistance and enter the BC Distaff.

Probably depends on Quality Road winning one or both of his Saratoga starts and then moving on into the BC Classic as the favorite.
And of course we are discussing this year, not last year, and her winning the BCC along with an undefeated campaign.

[andymays]

I'm confused; how have 14,727 members been able to get past the registration process here?


I think he was already registered from years ago and forgot about it. I noticed his name in the active user field yesterday.

Or maybe he just didn't want to jump in the soup. ;)

[Spalding No!]

And of course we are discussing this year, not last year, and her winning the BCC along with an undefeated campaign.

I like how you can ignore history, present your own fantasy scenarios, and post it as Scripture.

OK. Let's say Zenyatta wins the BC Classic after taking another Clement Hirsch and another Lady's Secret.

Quality Road wins the Whitney by 4 lengths over Blame in a track record performance. He takes the Woodward in his next start, tying his own track record. He then gets a fever and misses the BC Classic.

Rail Trip wins the Hollywood Gold Cup, breaking his own track record, then wins the Pacific Classic. He follows by winning the Jockey Club Gold Cup over all 3 Classic winning colts from this year. However, a foot bruise keeps Rail Trip from competing in the BC Classic.

Blame wins the Hawthorne Gold Cup leading up to the BC Classic.

Zenyatta wins the BC Classic getting just up at the wire by a long neck over Blame.

3 weeks later, both back in shape, Rail Trip and Quality Road show up in the Cigar Mile. Quality Road edges Rail Trip by a nose in a track record 1:32 flat.

Who's HOY?

[Pick6]

Are you trying to say it would not be Z? Come on.

If you are trying to cook up some wild scenario where Z does not win it (95% chance as I stated in a previous post), it would be a dominating performance by ONE horse who skips the BCC for some reason or another. Of course that horse would be a virtual lock for handicap honors, but it would need to be beyond incredible for him to earn HOY. Of course anything is possible; indeed, people vote on this stuff.

I know prop bets are not allowed here, but I will gladly give you 20-1 on any horse winnning HOY against Z assuming she does what I posted above.

[Bullet Plane]

Well, I thought Z might go to Dubai and win the World Cup- that didn't happen. I thought Rachel would do much more this year as well.

However, I didn't expect to see the great performances by Quality Road, Rail Trip, and Blame.

Also, one of the three year olds could come into their own later this year.

This has got to be one of the best years in horseracing ever!

Enjoy! :)

[andymays]

Well, I thought Z might go to Dubai and win the World Cup- that didn't happen. I thought Rachel would do much more this year as well.

However, I didn't expect to see the great performances by Quality Road, Rail Trip, and Blame.

Also, one of the three year olds could come into their own later this year.

This has got to be one of the best years in horseracing ever!
Enjoy! :)


Who let an Optimist in here? ;) :D

Good Job Bullet! :ThmbUp:

[thaskalos]

I like how you can ignore history, present your own fantasy scenarios, and post it as Scripture.

OK. Let's say Zenyatta wins the BC Classic after taking another Clement Hirsch and another Lady's Secret.

Quality Road wins the Whitney by 4 lengths over Blame in a track record performance. He takes the Woodward in his next start, tying his own track record. He then gets a fever and misses the BC Classic.

Rail Trip wins the Hollywood Gold Cup, breaking his own track record, then wins the Pacific Classic. He follows by winning the Jockey Club Gold Cup over all 3 Classic winning colts from this year. However, a foot bruise keeps Rail Trip from competing in the BC Classic.

Blame wins the Hawthorne Gold Cup leading up to the BC Classic.

Zenyatta wins the BC Classic getting just up at the wire by a long neck over Blame.

3 weeks later, both back in shape, Rail Trip and Quality Road show up in the Cigar Mile. Quality Road edges Rail Trip by a nose in a track record 1:32 flat.

Who's HOY? Zenyatta...in a landslide! :)

[horses4courses]

Who said they didn't put enough weight on her???

:lol:

[FenceBored]

Dont hate horses Fence,but some of you guys are overrating QR..
Its funny how you say WHAT MORE DOES A HORSE HAVE TO DO AND SOME STILL CRITICIZE ZENYATTA...now thats funny.,.

Yeah, that's what was funny about it.

[Tom]

I'm confused; how have 14,727 members been able to get past the registration process here?

Some of them many, many times!

[Pick6]

I wonder how trainers like Whittingham or Frankel would have handled Z. Would they have campaigned her much differently?

[Spalding No!]

I wonder how trainers like Whittingham or Frankel would have handled Z. Would they have campaigned her much differently?

Whittingham would have run her in the Big Cap 3 straight times.

Frankel would have run her exclusively at Belmont.

[Grits]

Whittingham would have run her in the Big Cap 3 straight times.

Frankel would have run her exclusively at Belmont.

SN, he may have scratched her a few times, too. Whatcha' think?

He was notorious for doing so.

[Spalding No!]

SN, he may have scratched her a few times, too. Whatcha' think?

He was notorious for doing so.

Probably if he tried to run her in too many distaff races and got too high a weight.

It's OK. Her running exclusively against males once every 3 months would have been worth the wait (no pun intended).

[bigmack]

I'm sure most of you wont appreciate this, but I was a Canterbury Downs regular for many years.

This is Davidowitz talking about the Canterbury meet in 1987 in which he was the main public 'capper in Minnesota for a few years.
That Dark Star, he was a trip. I'd sit with a few comrades and we'd crack-up watching his show. :D

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u70/macktime/6_16_10_18_03_02.png

Some of them many, many times!
Bingo. So that can't be too tough to breach.

This matza ball of a thread might be more than he'd like to scoop.

[DeanT]

Dark Star.......... LMAO!

I figured he would be a really mean looking biker dude or something.

Oh man that is great!

[Niko]

I remember watching Dark Star before the computer age-he was great to watch. A style his own, I heard him on the radio a while back but I have no idea what's he's doing now.

[JustRalph]

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=71849

Hear it from Davidowitz himself...........

[PaceAdvantage]

I think he was already registered from years ago and forgot about it. I noticed his name in the active user field yesterday.

Or maybe he just didn't want to jump in the soup. ;)No, he registered the other day...I don't have things set to automatically confirm registrations for obvious reasons, thus there tends to be a bit of a delay until you are able to post...that's all...

[PaceAdvantage]

I know prop bets are not allowed here, but I will gladly give you 20-1 on any horse winnning HOY against Z assuming she does what I posted above.You know prop bets are not allowed, and yet you continue to act like a giant ass anyway? Enough with the nobody-gives-a-shit prop bets.

[Greyfox]

Grits let me give you the :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: up for your reassement of SD's value.
It was a good "tinker's damn.";)

[WinterTriangle]

I don't see why she is constantly brought up as some sort of counter-argument.

Probably for the same reason that Zenyatta's name is peppered into topics not about Zenyatta? (Ascot topic)

But seriously, Pace, I think people are always going to "link" these two girls together, and many are still hoping for some kind of match up, don't you think?

In that scenario, I certainly don't blame any trainer for not wanting to put their horse at any kind of disadvantage, would you?

You have said yourself that you believe Rachel is better on dirt.

If we're asking Zenyatta to ship 3,000 miles, plus run on a surface that she is not known to be a specialist on, (even though many appear confident in her ability on dirt), I'd like to know what the similar "disadvantage" for Rachel would be? .

Shipping versus not shipping is a disadvantage.

So, why not, as someone suggested, a dirt race over in CA? That would seem equitable.

[PaceAdvantage]

I think it's a little interesting that we are now down to the shipping factor when discussing this topic.

Horsemen have been successfully shipping around the country for ages now...outfits big and small all ship with regularity, the smaller outfits especially when they are fortunate to come across a real talented runner.

Shipping as a hardship really shouldn't be a talking point in 2010, UNLESS we are talking about a specific horse who displays very serious issues with the shipping process, but those must be rarities since I don't really recall any stories about any such maniac shippers of recent times.

[gm10]

I think it's a little interesting that we are now down to the shipping factor when discussing this topic.

Horsemen have been successfully shipping around the country for ages now...outfits big and small all ship with regularity, the smaller outfits especially when they are fortunate to come across a real talented runner.

Shipping as a hardship really shouldn't be a talking point in 2010, UNLESS we are talking about a specific horse who displays very serious issues with the shipping process, but those must be rarities since I don't really recall any stories about any such maniac shippers of recent times.

Shipping to NY is another matter, isn't it?

[GARY Z]

Both commentators have their points, as Zen resembles Big Red
and Forego with her dynamic stretch runs against relative weak
competition , with the majority of races being on synthetic tracks.

Flip is Big Red's main competitor , Sham tried his best, simply couldn't get near Big Red, and Forego rarely showed speed which is the case with Zen.


Here's a thought which should be considered when stating this is
the greatest mare of the century.Regardless of dirt vs synth
controversies, she has mainly run on bute, not the case with
the legends of racing, which in fact may have helped her in
attaining her streak. Check her speed/pace #'s at OP and the question.
at least inmho is this med should be noted as influential in
her winning streak?

[Java Gold@TFT]

Shipping to NY is another matter, isn't it?
Mine That Bird would have had a shipping issue. He got thrown into the back of a trailer a week before a race and was driven from NM to KY. That's a shipping burden. Zenyatta would get a first class airplane trip for 3-4 hours and then a 30 minute van ride from Albany to Saratoga in plenty of time for a race. That is hardly a shipping burden. travel is much easier than the old van rides and train rides. Moss can just tell Jones he will be in Saratoga for the Ruffian or Personal Ensign and let him get Rachel there. She's only run at Saratoga once so it wouldn't be any different than an Oaklawn matchup. Just 'Git 'er done'.

[Tom]

Shipping to NY is another matter, isn't it?

Planes don't fly into California anymore? :rolleyes:

[gm10]

Mine That Bird would have had a shipping issue. He got thrown into the back of a trailer a week before a race and was driven from NM to KY. That's a shipping burden. Zenyatta would get a first class airplane trip for 3-4 hours and then a 30 minute van ride from Albany to Saratoga in plenty of time for a race. That is hardly a shipping burden. travel is much easier than the old van rides and train rides. Moss can just tell Jones he will be in Saratoga for the Ruffian or Personal Ensign and let him get Rachel there. She's only run at Saratoga once so it wouldn't be any different than an Oaklawn matchup. Just 'Git 'er done'.

Don't horses have to go into quarantine when they come to NY?

[Cardus]

I think it's a little interesting that we are now down to the shipping factor when discussing this topic.

Horsemen have been successfully shipping around the country for ages now...outfits big and small all ship with regularity, the smaller outfits especially when they are fortunate to come across a real talented runner.

Shipping as a hardship really shouldn't be a talking point in 2010, UNLESS we are talking about a specific horse who displays very serious issues with the shipping process, but those must be rarities since I don't really recall any stories about any such maniac shippers of recent times.

"D. Wayne off the plane," e.g.

WT has followed the sport briefly, so forgive her lack of historical understanding.

[Java Gold@TFT]

Don't horses have to go into quarantine when they come to NY?
Is that a burden to shipping if you are coming in weeks in advance of a race? And no they don't. Moss has complained about the detention barn in NY. Horses in NY have to go to a detention barn with limited access to the trainer and staff 6 hours before post time. That way no final touches like meds or milk shakes can be administered. It's there to uphold the integrity of the already abused medication issues. Moss doesn't want Zenyatta taken out of her barn before she goes to the paddock. It's all a cockimamie excuse based on Giacomo's poor performance in the Belmont. The horse had no prayer of ever winning another race but Moss blamed the detention barn for disturbing his pre-race routine. At Saratoga there is a very well administered Stakes Barn where the out of state shippers for stakes races stay if the trainer doesn't have a stall alocation. Last summer mine That Bird and Summer Bird spent their month of August in the stakes barn. I'm sure Zenyatta would be welcomed too.

[gm10]

Is that a burden to shipping if you are coming in weeks in advance of a race? And no they don't. Moss has complained about the detention barn in NY. Horses in NY have to go to a detention barn with limited access to the trainer and staff 6 hours before post time. That way no final touches like meds or milk shakes can be administered. It's there to uphold the integrity of the already abused medication issues. Moss doesn't want Zenyatta taken out of her barn before she goes to the paddock. It's all a cockimamie excuse based on Giacomo's poor performance in the Belmont. The horse had no prayer of ever winning another race but Moss blamed the detention barn for disturbing his pre-race routine. At Saratoga there is a very well administered Stakes Barn where the out of state shippers for stakes races stay if the trainer doesn't have a stall alocation. Last summer mine That Bird and Summer Bird spent their month of August in the stakes barn. I'm sure Zenyatta would be welcomed too.

I think that Moss called Belmont the other week and was refered to their website, so I wouldn't be too sure.

I didn't know it was only one day but it does sound very annoying if you want to ship your horse there. I don't know much about it but I don't think that shipping across the US is that straightforward. NY horses don't do well when the BC is in California (even on the dirt), do they?

[bisket]

any horse shipping that far will be up against it next out. then you add a day in strange surroundings without any of your normal handlers being able to comfort the horse. zen would be at a disadvantage, but i still think she's good enough to beat the cheapies running in new york nowadays :lol:

[FenceBored]

any horse shipping that far will be up against it next out. then you add a day in strange surroundings without any of your normal handlers being able to comfort the horse. zen would be at a disadvantage, but i still think she's good enough to beat the cheapies running in new york nowadays :lol:

I didn't realize Richard's Kid was in NY.

[098poi]

Well they finally blocked paceadvantage from access at work! :mad: I get home and these threads are still going. Wonder what I missed. :rolleyes:

[bisket]

I didn't realize Richard's Kid was in NY.
come on fence. i gave you my best ed mcmahon line and thats the best you can do?

[Spalding No!]

any horse shipping that far will be up against it next out. then you add a day in strange surroundings without any of your normal handlers being able to comfort the horse. zen would be at a disadvantage, but i still think she's good enough to beat the cheapies running in new york nowadays :lol:

To be realistic, I'd imagine Team Zenyatta would send her groom and possibly exercise rider along with her were she to ship to NY.

That said, I agree she'd probably be successful in NY despite whatever "hardships" or "disadvantages" she'd have to absorb from the shipping itself.

I wonder why Team Zenyatta doesn't think she can handle it.

[FenceBored]

come on fence. i gave you my best ed mcmahon line and thats the best you can do?

:blush: Sorry, I'll try harder next time.

[HTRFGuy]

This question is not pointed at any particular forum member.

What if Zenyatta remains undefeated.
Wins the 2010 BC Classic on dirt at CD.
Defeats RA,QR,etc. and all foreign comers then retires?

Perhaps this should have been a poll?
What is enough?

It will all depend upon her Beyer figure. :lol:

[PaceAdvantage]

It will all depend upon her Beyer figure. :lol:Forget about Beyers...how do her sheet figures compare? Aren't sheet figures regarded as some of the best around?

[bisket]

To be realistic, I'd imagine Team Zenyatta would send her groom and possibly exercise rider along with her were she to ship to NY.

That said, I agree she'd probably be successful in NY despite whatever "hardships" or "disadvantages" she'd have to absorb from the shipping itself.

I wonder why Team Zenyatta doesn't think she can handle it.
because they don't have to :D :p

[Spalding No!]

because they don't have to :D :p

Why didn't you just say this to begin with instead of trying to justify Team Zenyatta's conduct with all your BS about being at a disadvantage in NY with all the strange sights and sounds and big, hairy, scary detention barn?

[joanied]

If I may say something about shipping...in general, I think most here do realize that it does effect some horses in a negative way...if you could try, just for a moment, to think like a horse...especially shipping via airline...the feeling of take off and landing, the noise, the claustrophobic area...these things can and do effect a horse...some seem to take it in stride, but what is really going on is that some deal with it without freaking out or going off their feed...but they still do not like it (with Zenyatta, she dehydrates, which means she is not dealing with it well, she just doesn't show it by flipping out, she dehydrates instead) Then you have the new barn and surroundings...even a back yard horse will be upset in a new place...horses just do not like change. Some deal with it quietly, others get crazy, others seem 'off'...(remember Mine That Bird was totally freaked in the D barn at Belmont)
then you take a mare (or any horse) that has been in the same place for a relativley long time...Zenyatta knows the barn in CA. to be her home and she is more than comfortable there...and it would probably take a horse like her a little longer to adjust. But, yes, she would eventually settle in, especially if they could have familiar things and people with her all the time...
in fact, if she goes in the Classic, I would hope they ship her to CD well in advance...like a couple of weeks.

Anyway, those are my thoughts on shipping...only two cents worth, but there ya go:)

[letswastemoney]

The great ones handle shipping! It's part of being great!

[bisket]

:blush: Sorry, I'll try harder next time.
actually it wasn't that bad. :D i hope we see rich in cali this fall.

[bisket]

jonied i think thats why zen is staying in california until the cup. last year it was important for zen to come east to race because the cup was on poly, and if they planned to be hoy they needed a victory in new york, kentucky, or the mid atlantic. this year the classic is on dirt, and if she wins it she's hoy. i think its wise of her connections get her their in the best form possible. i just don't think it makes sense for them ship across the country twice in a few month period.

[trackrat59]

My disclaimer....I love both Z and RA. Just commenting about horse behavior in general and nothing to do with where I think they should be running.

Joanied makes all very good points about horses (flying) shipping. Here's my personal example. I have 3 horses. One loves to "ship". Ok, trailer up to my friends house an hour a way to trail ride. But even so, in his world he's "shipping". Anyway, horse 1 loves to ship. Gets right on the trailer and loves to go. If he could he would stick his head out a window like a dog. No question. Horse 2 needs to be coaxed on the trailer. He'll go but he's not crazy about it. He clearly trusts me so he gets on the trailer when I ask him. Now we come to horse 3. When I first got him he did NOT like shipping. Did not like going on the trailer at all. It took a good 6 months to get him comfortable getting on the trailer so we could ship. But, it took numerous times letting him get on and off the trailer so he could get comfortable and trust the routine.

As great as Z is she's still a horse. A rather smart horse at that but she's still a horse. At this point in her life I would hate to think she's flying, or being hauled around if it's against her constitution.

[Spalding No!]

My disclaimer....I love both Z and RA. Just commenting about horse behavior in general and nothing to do with where I think they should be running.

Joanied makes all very good points about horses (flying) shipping. Here's my personal example. I have 3 horses. One loves to "ship". Ok, trailer up to my friends house an hour a way to trail ride. But even so, in his world he's "shipping". Anyway, horse 1 loves to ship. Gets right on the trailer and loves to go. If he could he would stick his head out a window like a dog. No question. Horse 2 needs to be coaxed on the trailer. He'll go but he's not crazy about it. He clearly trusts me so he gets on the trailer when I ask him. Now we come to horse 3. When I first got him he did NOT like shipping. Did not like going on the trailer at all. It took a good 6 months to get him comfortable getting on the trailer so we could ship. But, it took numerous times letting him get on and off the trailer so he could get comfortable and trust the routine.

As great as Z is she's still a horse. A rather smart horse at that but she's still a horse. At this point in her life I would hate to think she's flying, or being hauled around if it's against her constitution.

While your points are well taking, I think what we need to consider here is John Shirreffs somewhat overdone concern for his horses.

How is it that every horse he trains has an issue with the detention barn at Belmont? Does Zenyatta really suffer dehydration to a severe degree relative to other horses being shipped?

Either its all a convenient smokescreen to evade tough assignments or he's careful to a fault. I think its a bit of both.

I'd like to bring up an interesting turn of events a few years ago, regarding another great mare in a similar situation as this.

Azeri, having dominated the Distaff ranks in 2002 earning HOY, returned at age 5 for Michael Paulson and Laura De Seroux. Very quickly after a couple of victorious starts these same sorts of arguments about campaigning swirled around Azeri. She should ship east. She should face males. She should face Sightseek. De Seroux would have none of it.

Well, she kept on with the cream-puff schedule and ended up getting humiliated in the Lady's Secret at the hands of Got Koko and Elloluv. The look of complete disgust from Michael Paulson in the stands as the horse crossed the wire told the tale. It was a look that displayed not only the disappointment that went along with losing a race that should have been routine, but also the revelation that a whole year had been wasted taking the road already traveled.

A few months later, De Seroux was no longer training the horse.

When its all over, I hope the Mosses realize the deal they've made.

[DeanT]

When its all over, I hope the Mosses realize the deal they've made.

Ya, 17 for 17, six million in earnings, voted second in HOY voting to a filly who ran the greatest three year old filly season in the history of the sport, two consecutive Breeders Cups, including the first against males which will live for centuries in the annals of racing, and on schedule to defend that amazing feat all at the age of six, when most horses are retired or lame.

They should have fired him long ago.

[Greyfox]

When its all over, I hope the Mosses realize the deal they've made.

The deal they've made has already pulled in over $ 6,150,000. Achoo.

[miesque]

Ya, 17 for 17, six million in earnings, voted second in HOY voting to a filly who ran the greatest three year old filly season in the history of the sport, two consecutive Breeders Cups, including the first against males which will live for centuries in the annals of racing, and on schedule to defend that amazing feat all at the age of six, when most horses are retired or lame.

They should have fired him long ago.

:lol: Seriously, that is some attrocious underachieving and the Mosses looked absolutely miserable with her meager progress when I saw them in the Winners Circle getting their picture taken on Sunday with their undefeated mare who was now 17 for 17.

On a side note, sometimes I think people forget that Zenyatta is a six year old mare who has spent her entire career racing in the United States on the main track. She is not a three or even four year old colt, she is not a filly or mare racing in Europe where there are limited graded stakes races for fillies and mare once they move past the Classics, not to mention they race on turf which is more equitable surface. Zenyatta's connections have stated that the goal this year is the Breeders Cup Classic and they are heading in that direction in a methodical manner so that to their projections she is in peak form for that race.

[Spalding No!]

Ya, 17 for 17, six million in earnings, voted second in HOY voting to a filly who ran the greatest three year old filly season in the history of the sport, two consecutive Breeders Cups, including the first against males which will live for centuries in the annals of racing, and on schedule to defend that amazing feat all at the age of six, when most horses are retired or lame.


I like the "voted second in HOY" bit.

Amazing.

[Spalding No!]

The deal they've made has already pulled in over $ 6,150,000. Achoo.

Yeah, a more demanding campaign would have netted them less money.

Unless one thinks she wasn't good enough to run in the Big Cap, Hollywood Gold Cup, Pacific Classic, etc...

[Spalding No!]

:lol: Seriously, that is some attrocious underachieving and the Mosses looked absolutely miserable with her meager progress when I saw them in the Winners Circle getting their picture taken on Sunday with their undefeated mare who was now 17 for 17.

What did their faces look like at the Eclipse Awards this year?

On a side note, sometimes I think people forget that Zenyatta is a six year old mare who has spent her entire career racing in the United States on the main track.

Sometimes I think people forget that Zenyatta didn't start racing until she was essentially a 4yo.

She is not a three or even four year old colt, she is not a filly or mare racing in Europe where there are limited graded stakes races for fillies and mare once they move past the Classics, not to mention they race on turf which is a greater equalizer.

Hilarious. You're making excuses for why European females tend to take on males?

Yeah, I'm sure the Mosses are thinking "damn, we'd love to take on colts but there's so many stakes for distaffers!" I'm sure that's the thought process.

To help your case, the Euros also aren't as ghetto as Zenyatta. The don't have to run in the 'hood of Inglewood.

[miesque]

Hilarious. You're making excuses for why European females tend to take on males?

Yeah, I'm sure the Mosses are thinking "damn, we'd love to take on colts but there's so many stakes for distaffers!" I'm sure that's the thought process.

To help your case, the Euros also aren't as ghetto as Zenyatta. The don't have to run in the 'hood of Inglewood.

I am not making any excuses whatsoever, it is different. If you think its a carbon copy over in Europe as it is over here and that they are running in the same style and type of races and that its an easy apple to apple comparison than good for you. :rolleyes:

[Spalding No!]

I am not making any excuses whatsoever, it is different. If you think its a carbon copy over in Europe as it is over here and that they are running in the same style and type of races than and that its an easy apple to apple comparison than good for you. :rolleyes:

Whatever. You're the one who brought Europe up, I presume in an effort to downplay Goldikova's 3 campaigns.

You did good.

The Mosses should put you on the pay role to be their equalizer. And I'm not talking about the Edward Woodward character on TV.

I know how much you hate urban housing projects and the dirty bottom feeders that lurk there.

[miesque]

On a follow up note, I do have to comment that I have had the highest respect for Goldikova since she was a three year old and if someone asked me who was better, Zenyatta or Goldikova, I couldn't really come up with an answer because to me they operate in different spheres and while I have seen Goldikova defeated Zenyatta has always managed to pull through even when it looked impossible.

[miesque]

Whatever. You're the one who brought Europe up, I presume in an effort to downplay Goldikova's 3 campaigns.

You did good.

The Mosses should put you on the pay role to be their equalizer. And I'm not talking about the Edward Woodward character on TV.

I know how much you hate urban housing projects and the dirty bottom feeders that lurk there.

I absolutely and utterly adore Goldikova and have for quite some time and I don't give a rats ass what you think I was trying to imply because your opinion is absolutely irrelevant to me.

As for bottom feeders, glad you were upfront with who you really are.

[DeanT]

If I may say something about shipping...in general,
This one is for you Joanie.

From Plonks kinda fun column today on Rach and Z.

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/horse/columns/story?columnist=plonk_jeremy&id=5298022

Road trips: There's no place like home. This is an interesting one, passed along to me by my friend Walker McBride at Del Mar. Taking a look at the training locations and mileage accrued while traveling to and from races during their careers, Google maps and McBride's curiosity combine to surprise. Zenyatta has ventured approximately 7,314 miles during her 17-race career, while Rachel Alexandra has ventured 6,072 miles during that span. And those figures do not include the 4,210 round-trip miles Zenyatta went in 2009 for a Churchill Downs scratch in the Louisville Distaff Breeders' Cup. To be fair, 6,620 of Zenyatta's frequent-flier miles came in two round trips to Oaklawn for the 2009 and '10 Apple Blossom. Still, it's a fun number. Of Zenyatta's 17 starts, nine have come when she's been able to walk out of her current home stall to the paddock. Rachel Alexandra has made home-court starts in 12 of 17 lifetime starts.

[KingChas]

If you listen closely,
Steve D. says; "She is the best "Older Mare" I have ever seen in my lifetime."

Which is not a foolish statement.Zenyatta being 6 yrs old.

Sounds like another east coast/west coast overblown issue.

[gm10]

To be realistic, I'd imagine Team Zenyatta would send her groom and possibly exercise rider along with her were she to ship to NY.

That said, I agree she'd probably be successful in NY despite whatever "hardships" or "disadvantages" she'd have to absorb from the shipping itself.

I wonder why Team Zenyatta doesn't think she can handle it.

I wouldn't ship her to NY either. Plenty of good races in California, and you know that the track won't go bankrupt before the end of the meet. And if she's going to defend her crown at CD, I think there won't really be any doubt about Zenyatta having faced good horses on the dirt in her career. Unless they can attract RA for the same race at Saratoga (although they can't keep showing up in the hope that RA will be there), I would just stay in California.

[FenceBored]

This one is for you Joanie.

From Plonks kinda fun column today on Rach and Z.

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/horse/columns/story?columnist=plonk_jeremy&id=5298022

That quote was simply asinine. If a horse moves around from Oaklawn in the Winter to Churchill in the Spring, to Belmont for the early Summer and then up to Saratoga, that's "home court" for every start. If another horse ships once cross country that's more traveling than the first horse. Brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. :rolleyes:

[joanied]

This one is for you Joanie.

From Plonks kinda fun column today on Rach and Z.

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/horse/columns/story?columnist=plonk_jeremy&id=5298022

But, Rachel kinda did stay home...short trips to several tracks is somewhat different that a 3 or 4 hour plane trip...and IMO, shipping via airline is much more stressful on a horse than getting in a van to travel a couple of hours.
Sorry, it may be a 'fun' column, but IMO, it means diddley.

But, I will say, IMO, if they feel it's best for Zenyatta to stay home until later in the year (I think they will ship, but it won't be until BC looms), they really should/ need to run her in the Big 'Cap, Pacific Classic or Hollywood Gold Cup...that would sure quiet at least some of her critics. :)

[joanied]

The great ones handle shipping! It's part of being great!

You are entitled to your opinion....but there have been some 'great' horses that didn't ship much.

[Kimsus]

You don't log on for 24 hours and you come back to this thread and you wonder just what the hell is going on here?

[Greyfox]

You don't log on for 24 hours and you come back to this thread and you wonder just what the hell is going on here?

What's going on?
Armchair trainers. Several think they know more than Sherriffs. :lol:

[Cardus]

I'd like to know at what point, precisely, that Zenyatta hit her "third accelerated gear" cited by Davidowitz, in the Vanity. I'd like to know how he gauges gears.

If he feels that Zenyatta would be "reasonably competitive" against the top horses over the last 25-30 years, then how is it that Zenyatta's owners and trainer did not enter her to run against Rail Trip? Is he in the category referenced by Davidowitz, above? And even if Zenyatta would be "reasonably competitive" against this group, where exactly does that place her? What is the point of being "reasonably competitive"? Also, I see a disconnect from the above quote and saying moments later that he would not bet her against Quality Road, unless, of course, he is in the elite of the last three decades.

Zenyatta won the Breeders' Cup Classic by one length. One. How does that equate to "dust[ing] Gio Ponti like he wasn't there"?

Davidowitz should have left Secretariat out of his response. Zenyatta and Secretariat are horses. The comparison ends there, regardless of why he invoked Secretariat.

Even when "she is in trouble," Zenyatta has always won. You can't praise her style of running, and then say the above. She is a closer, so will it appear as though she is "in trouble" because of that style?

Lastly, Zenyatta has not gone to dirt "tracks." She has been to one. Small point, I know.

[BluegrassProf]

But, Rachel kinda did stay home...short trips to several tracks is somewhat different that a 3 or 4 hour plane trip...:faint:

Methinks you should move more racehorses - and their respective operations - before you make this sort of statement.

Stress results from far more than walking up a longer ramp or takeoff belly flops - the important issue is the cumulative effect of many stressors, all of which are inherent in ANY kind of travel. Shipping, by road or air or hovercraft, is extremely time-consuming (believe it or not, a short trip by minivan is actually a long trip by trailering) and quite taxing for horse and handler alike; the notion that plane travel is wildly more stressful vs. driving is fairly misguided (though yes, airline travel does have its own sorts of stressors, as many, MANY horses experience all over the country).

LWM is right: in today's racing both in this country and abroad, great horses are expected to travel, particularly when you're talking about a horse stuck in a place that uses a unique racing surfaces. You might not think they need to, but it's not making the expectation go away.

[Greyfox]

in today's racing both in this country and abroad, great horses are expected to travel, .

Right. Never stay home and make $ 6,150,000 bucks.
They are supposed to campaign like Presidential candidates eh. :lol:

[gm10]

Reading all these comments about Zenyatta ... sorry guys, I don't think you really deserve her. If you don't like her, fine, but why do all these people go to such lengths to diminish her efforts? What kind of fan does that? Some people seem to be demanding that every single one her races is an absolute corker that will go down as the greatest horse race of all times. That is simply unrealistic, even Secretariat must have won some fairly average races. Every time a horse runs a decent race, they say 'well if she's that good why hasn't she run against Blame/Rail Trip/etc etc'. Well you have to make some choices don't you? These are athletes, you can make them peak but they can't be at their very best every month of the year.

[DeanT]

Why all the Rail Trip talk anyway? What would beating him prove? The same arguments would be used against her - she beat a good speed fig horse on Poly.

Rail Trip, according to speed figures, is worse than Gio Ponti on poly. Her beating Gio Ponti (for those who like to talk speed figs) is harder than beating Rail Trip. She's been there, done that.

[Kimsus]

What's going on?
Armchair trainers. Several think they know more than Sherriffs. :lol:

Oh thanks, didn't miss a thing then. Just pick up where we left off, and off..ect. ;)

[Spalding No!]

Well you have to make some choices don't you? These are athletes, you can make them peak but they can't be at their very best every month of the year.

And yet that is exactly the illusion that Team Zenyatta would have you believe by choosing to guard her undefeated record at the expense of any competitive racing.

I love how her ardent fans present her as a unique, special horse capable of overcoming great adversity, but when someone mentions running against a top class colt, or running in a top class dirt race, or even something as mundane as shipping, she is suddenly very much a mortal again.

If you actually look at what is being said regarded her abilities, very few of the detractors of Zenyatta's campaigns knock her as much as her "supporters" do.

[letswastemoney]

Smith whipped Zenyatta quite a few times didn't he?

It didn't seem like the old Zenyatta who moves by her opponents like "they're standing still." How much harder is she going to run if she faces top class males? How much will she have to whipped to beat Rail Trip?

[DeanT]

How much will she have to whipped to beat Rail Trip?

Fewer times than she was whipped to beat Gio Ponti?

[Grits]

I'd like to know at what point, precisely, that Zenyatta hit her "third accelerated gear" cited by Davidowitz, in the Vanity. I'd like to know how he gauges gears.

If he feels that Zenyatta would be "reasonably competitive" against the top horses over the last 25-30 years, then how is it that Zenyatta's owners and trainer did not enter her to run against Rail Trip? Is he in the category referenced by Davidowitz, above? And even if Zenyatta would be "reasonably competitive" against this group, where exactly does that place her? What is the point of being "reasonably competitive"? Also, I see a disconnect from the above quote and saying moments later that he would not bet her against Quality Road, unless, of course, he is in the elite of the last three decades.

Zenyatta won the Breeders' Cup Classic by one length. One. How does that equate to "dust[ing] Gio Ponti like he wasn't there"?

Davidowitz should have left Secretariat out of his response. Zenyatta and Secretariat are horses. The comparison ends there, regardless of why he invoked Secretariat.

Even when "she is in trouble," Zenyatta has always won. You can't praise her style of running, and then say the above. She is a closer, so will it appear as though she is "in trouble" because of that style?

Lastly, Zenyatta has not gone to dirt "tracks." She has been to one. Small point, I know.

Cardus, fine points ALL. Particularly the note on the similarities between Zenyatta and "that immortal, world record setting chestnut." Every time anyone ventures down this path drawing any comparison whatsoever--one can get really disgusted. And QUICK. My eyes roll skyward.

In truth, Davidowitz is only another mere soul with an opinion, that's it. Nothing more. The fact that he's authored books on handicapping makes that opinion, contrary to what he may believe, no more valid than others.

Of course, we all have that tidbit of understanding about opinions. They're like . . . . well . . . . you know . . . . .;)

[Cardus]

And yet that is exactly the illusion that Team Zenyatta would have you believe by choosing to guard her undefeated record at the expense of any competitive racing.

I love how her ardent fans present her as a unique, special horse capable of overcoming great adversity, but when someone mentions running against a top class colt, or running in a top class dirt race, or even something as mundane as shipping, she is suddenly very much a mortal again.

If you actually look at what is being said regarded her abilities, very few of the detractors of Zenyatta's campaigns knock her as much as her "supporters" do.

That is a very interesting way to look at it.

Sharp post.

[the little guy]

Why all the Rail Trip talk anyway? What would beating him prove? The same arguments would be used against her - she beat a good speed fig horse on Poly.



It is the refusal to run against him that is the most meaningful.

[David-LV]

And yet that is exactly the illusion that Team Zenyatta would have you believe by choosing to guard her undefeated record at the expense of any competitive racing.

I love how her ardent fans present her as a unique, special horse capable of overcoming great adversity, but when someone mentions running against a top class colt, or running in a top class dirt race, or even something as mundane as shipping, she is suddenly very much a mortal again.

If you actually look at what is being said regarded her abilities, very few of the detractors of Zenyatta's campaigns knock her as much as her "supporters" do.


So are you saying that the colts Zenyatta beat in the classic were not competitive ?

This story line that she is not one of the great mares of all time is really getting old.

If you really watched all her races you will pick up this major fact, it does not matter the pace of the race fast or slow, synthetic or dirt Big Z always seems to get there, that is the real test of a true champion.

________
David-LV

[Greyfox]

Smith whipped Zenyatta quite a few times didn't he?

?


Yes. Smith whipped Zenyatta 5 or 6 times.
That's because he mistakenly took her 8 wide on the turn and lost significant ground.
The fact that she was able to win after that ground loss on Hollywood's short stretch was quite a feat.

[PaceAdvantage]

I wouldn't ship her to NY either. Plenty of good races in California, and you know that the track won't go bankrupt before the end of the meet.At least in NY, they won't have to worry about the card being cancelled due to lack of entries.

[PaceAdvantage]

Reading all these comments about Zenyatta ... sorry guys, I don't think you really deserve her. If you don't like her, fine, but why do all these people go to such lengths to diminish her efforts? What kind of fan does that? Some people seem to be demanding that every single one her races is an absolute corker that will go down as the greatest horse race of all times. That is simply unrealistic, even Secretariat must have won some fairly average races. Every time a horse runs a decent race, they say 'well if she's that good why hasn't she run against Blame/Rail Trip/etc etc'. Well you have to make some choices don't you? These are athletes, you can make them peak but they can't be at their very best every month of the year.Can you please stop posting the same silly nonsense over and over again. Nobody is diminishing her efforts.

The only debate is whether or not those efforts have been enough to be called an all-time great, and if NOT, what it will take to make it so...

The fact that we are even debating this PROVES without a doubt that we all appreciate exactly what we have in front of us...

So just stop it already...

[gm10]

And yet that is exactly the illusion that Team Zenyatta would have you believe by choosing to guard her undefeated record at the expense of any competitive racing.

I love how her ardent fans present her as a unique, special horse capable of overcoming great adversity, but when someone mentions running against a top class colt, or running in a top class dirt race, or even something as mundane as shipping, she is suddenly very much a mortal again.

If you actually look at what is being said regarded her abilities, very few of the detractors of Zenyatta's campaigns knock her as much as her "supporters" do.

You would have had a point if they hadn't entered her in the Breeders Cup Classic. That was patently not a case of protecting her undefeated record.

[Spalding No!]

So are you saying that the colts Zenyatta beat in the classic were not competitive ?

Which horse in the BC Classic was in form and on his preferred surface? Rip Van Winkle? Gio Ponti? Twice Over? Summer Bird? Regal Ransom? Mine That Bird?

Even Colonel John hadn't won a synthetic race of any kind for a year and a half leading up to that BC Classic.

If you think Einstein (who was campaigned like a top class racehorse should) ran to his abilities that day then we have no further need to continue.

That leaves one horse:

Richard's Kid.

[gm10]

Can you please stop posting the same silly nonsense over and over again. Nobody is diminishing her efforts.

The only debate is whether or not those efforts have been enough to be called an all-time great, and if NOT, what it will take to make it so...

The fact that we are even debating this PROVES without a doubt that we all appreciate exactly what we have in front of us...

So just stop it already...

I have never heard such nonsense. The fact that you repeat your campaign after each win, is proof that you actually cannot see what you have in front of you. I honestly do not know how you could ever explain this sport to a new fan.

Uh, so yeah, this horse never lost and won 17 times in a row, she beat the best horses in the world last season, oh and she won a couple of grade 1's on a different surface too. But she isn't really that great you know. Ah, here we have the plucky little Macho Again. Now he finished second in a thrilling race last year. OK, he hasn't won since, but he really is the yardstick for greatness in this sport.

It doesn't work. It's silly. It's on par with saying that Roger Federer isn't an all-time great because he hasn't won Roland Garros.

[Spalding No!]

You would have had a point if they hadn't entered her in the Breeders Cup Classic. That was patently not a case of protecting her undefeated record.

That was because Rachel Alexandra had a stranglehold on the HOY title and for all intents and purposes would have been Zenyatta's final career start.

By the way, that sort of "late run" to earn championships may work for Zenyatta on the actual racetrack, but it shouldn't work for Team Zenyatta as far as accolades and awards go.

There are plenty of marquee events aside from the BC Classic throughout the year. They run the San Pasqual and San Antonio to set up horses for the Big Cap. They run the Mervyn LeRoy and Californian to set up the Hollywood Gold Cup. They run the San Diego to set up the Pacific Classic. They run the Essex and Razorback to set up the Oaklawn Handicap. The Woodward is the major lead-in for the Jockey Club Gold Cup.

Since the 2008 Breeder's Cup, it can be said that, save for one race, Zenyatta has run in nothing but prep races. That's not what top class racing is about. The BC might be the last target of the season, but it does not trump all the other targets into utter irrelevance.

No matter what happens in this year's BC Classic, it won't be worth the wait.

[gm10]

That was because Rachel Alexandra had a stranglehold on the HOY title and for all intents and purposes would have been Zenyatta's final career start.

I'm sorry I thought you said that were trying to protect her undefeated record.

By the way, that sort of "late run" to earn championships may work for Zenyatta on the actual racetrack, but it shouldn't work for Team Zenyatta as far as accolades and awards go.

There are plenty of marquee events aside from the BC Classic throughout the year. They run the San Pasqual and San Antonio to set up horses for the Big Cap. They run the Mervyn LeRoy and Californian to set up the Hollywood Gold Cup. They run the San Diego to set up the Pacific Classic. They run the Essex and Razorback to set up the Oaklawn Handicap. The Woodward is the major lead-in for the Jockey Club Gold Cup.

Since the 2008 Breeder's Cup, it can be said that, save for one race, Zenyatta has run in nothing but prep races. That's not what top class racing is about. The BC might be the last target of the season, but it does not trump all the other targets into utter irrelevance.


She's won the Distaff, and of course she won the big showdown with No-show Alexandra.


No matter what happens in this year's BC Classic, it won't be worth the wait.

I appreciate your honesty.

[njcurveball]

Which horse in the BC Classic was in form and on his preferred surface? Rip Van Winkle? Gio Ponti? Twice Over? Summer Bird? Regal Ransom? Mine That Bird?

Even Colonel John hadn't won a synthetic race of any kind for a year and a half leading up to that BC Classic.

If you think Einstein (who was campaigned like a top class racehorse should) ran to his abilities that day then we have no further need to continue.

That leaves one horse:

Richard's Kid.

WOW! I wonder how the other owners missed this being such a soft race? And for a $5,000,000 purse too! :bang:

I do like you thinking though as I bet Richards Kid, so is there some place I can collect? I thought they paid off on Zenyatta. :rolleyes:

[Bobzilla]

So are you saying that the colts Zenyatta beat in the classic were not competitive ?

This story line that she is not one of the great mares of all time is really getting old.

If you really watched all her races you will pick up this major fact, it does not matter the pace of the race fast or slow, synthetic or dirt Big Z always seems to get there, that is the real test of a true champion.

David-LV


It's hard to argue with a 17-0 lifetime record, especially considering that such streaks are not typically, if ever, in the domain of deep closers. So she deserves a whole lot of credit for doing what she has done. With that said, is it really all that unreasonable for some to ask whether or not this imperviousness to pace would be equally apparent if she were dead last in a G1 event over traditional dirt where the fractions were a bit fast to moderate, moderate, or moderate slow and there were foes in the race more forwardly placed than her capable of 110 + speed figures? Maybe though I'm inclined to doubt it. Don't get me wrong, she's proven to me she is pretty darn good and has secured a place in history. Where that place might be within, or relative to, the Parthenon of "greats" is what many are trying to decide on. And yes, winning the BCC was quite an impressive feat and historically significant, but as Spalding No! pointed out, is it unreasonable to ask whether or not her competitors that day were running their "A" game when competing over the Pro-Ride? There is really no such thing as a Zenyatta basher in my opinion. But there are some who look at some of her past exploits within a different context and would prefer to see her, if still healthy and in good form, tested outside of her comfort zone as long as adjectives like "great" are going to be so loosely thrown around. Luckily for all of us we'll probably have some questions answered this November if she is still in form.

[DeanT]

I do like you thinking though as I bet Richards Kid, so is there some place I can collect? I thought they paid off on Zenyatta. :rolleyes:
I bet Gio Ponti.

It looked pretty decent until some big loping mare decided to throw a 22.4 last Q at him.

[David-LV]

That was because Rachel Alexandra had a stranglehold on the HOY title and for all intents and purposes would have been Zenyatta's final career start.

By the way, that sort of "late run" to earn championships may work for Zenyatta on the actual racetrack, but it shouldn't work for Team Zenyatta as far as accolades and awards go.

There are plenty of marquee events aside from the BC Classic throughout the year. They run the San Pasqual and San Antonio to set up horses for the Big Cap. They run the Mervyn LeRoy and Californian to set up the Hollywood Gold Cup. They run the San Diego to set up the Pacific Classic. They run the Essex and Razorback to set up the Oaklawn Handicap. The Woodward is the major lead-in for the Jockey Club Gold Cup.

Since the 2008 Breeder's Cup, it can be said that, save for one race, Zenyatta has run in nothing but prep races. That's not what top class racing is about. The BC might be the last target of the season, but it does not trump all the other targets into utter irrelevance.

No matter what happens in this year's BC Classic, it won't be worth the wait.

These comments are really hard to understand!!!

Are you new to the game?:confused:

I base my opinion on 55 years of watching and wagering.

Why is it so hard to give this great horse the credit she deserves, all she does is beat any and all comers.

BTW: I am from New York and have no west coast bias.:)


________
David-LV

[Spalding No!]

WOW! I wonder how the other owners missed this being such a soft race? And for a $5,000,000 purse too! :bang:

A lot of people pass up on the multimillion dollar Powerball draw every week, too.

I wonder if Michael Dickinson isn't on the pay roll of North American casinos. He's basically turned several of North America's racetracks into 8f-9f giant craps tables.

I do like you thinking though as I bet Richards Kid, so is there some place I can collect? I thought they paid off on Zenyatta. :rolleyes:

I believe you can collect at Bellevue Hospital. I'm sure you'll be comped a room and everything. They'll even give a nice white jacket when you check in.

[Spalding No!]

I'm sorry I thought you said that were trying to protect her undefeated record.

Sorry you missed my point. One race does not make for a great career.

She's won the Distaff, and of course she won the big showdown with No-show Alexandra.

I already mentioned she won the 2008 BC Distaff. That was basically the end of her career. She has done little since (even though she's run about 10 times subsequently).

[Spalding No!]

Why is it so hard to give this great horse the credit she deserves, all she does is beat any and all comers.

Nobody comes.

[njcurveball]

I believe you can collect at Bellevue Hospital. I'm sure you'll be comped a room and everything. They'll even give a nice white jacket when you check in.

After reading your posts, I am guessing they have computer access there. :lol:

[FenceBored]

Ah, here we have the plucky little Macho Again. Now he finished second in a thrilling race last year. OK, he hasn't won since, but he really is the yardstick for greatness in this sport.


Ah, here we have the plucky little Gio Ponti. Now he finished second in a thrilling race last year. OK, he hasn't won since, but he really is the yardstick for greatness in this sport.

Ah, here we have the plucky little Twice Over. Now he finished third in a thrilling race last year. OK, he hasn't won since, but he really is the yardstick for greatness in this sport.

Anyone can play this game. :jump:

[Spalding No!]

After reading your posts, I am guessing they have computer access there. :lol:

Excellent. That's a win in your column.

Alls I got is the "jerk store" line.

[cj]

Excellent. That's a win in your column.

Alls I got is the "jerk store" line.

It was, but putting the emoticon after his own post automatically cancels out some of the humor.

[Spalding No!]

It was, but putting the emoticon after his own post automatically cancels out some of the humor.

True. That's one of the main reasons that Rosanne Barr was never funny.

[gm10]

I bet Gio Ponti.

It looked pretty decent until some big loping mare decided to throw a 22.4 last Q at him.

I backed him too! He would have been a worthy winner after an outstanding season.

[gm10]

Ah, here we have the plucky little Gio Ponti. Now he finished second in a thrilling race last year. OK, he hasn't won since, but he really is the yardstick for greatness in this sport.

Ah, here we have the plucky little Twice Over. Now he finished third in a thrilling race last year. OK, he hasn't won since, but he really is the yardstick for greatness in this sport.

Anyone can play this game. :jump:

Difference is that Gio Ponti ultimately had no chance against the might of Zenyatta. Just another one who bit the dust.

[FenceBored]

Difference is that Gio Ponti ultimately had no chance against the might of Zenyatta. Just another one who bit the dust.

Difference is that Gio Ponti ultimately had no chance against the might of Interpretation. Just another one who bit the dust.

Difference is that Gio Ponti ultimately had no chance against the might of Karelian. Just another one who bit the dust.

Difference is that Gio Ponti ultimately had no chance against the might of Winchester. Just another one who bit the dust.

Boy this is fun.

[gm10]

Difference is that Gio Ponti ultimately had no chance against the might of Interpretation. Just another one who bit the dust.

Difference is that Gio Ponti ultimately had no chance against the might of Karelian. Just another one who bit the dust.

Difference is that Gio Ponti ultimately had no chance against the might of Winchester. Just another one who bit the dust.

Boy this is fun.

sure
what does that mean
I don't think you are comprehending the notion of it: RA was in the fight of her life to fend off MA, Zenyatta simply laughed at Gio Ponti (who I still find a terrific race horse, tons better than Macho Again)
anyway, how can you say that they are both yardsticks?

[PaceAdvantage]

I have never heard such nonsense. The fact that you repeat your campaign after each win, is proof that you actually cannot see what you have in front of you. I honestly do not know how you could ever explain this sport to a new fan.

Uh, so yeah, this horse never lost and won 17 times in a row, she beat the best horses in the world last season, oh and she won a couple of grade 1's on a different surface too. But she isn't really that great you know. Ah, here we have the plucky little Macho Again. Now he finished second in a thrilling race last year. OK, he hasn't won since, but he really is the yardstick for greatness in this sport.

It doesn't work. It's silly. It's on par with saying that Roger Federer isn't an all-time great because he hasn't won Roland Garros.What are you talking about? Macho Again? See, this is what I mean. You are hopeless.

I didn't repeat any campaign. I simply questioned why St Trinians deserved such accolades being she is only a Grade 2 winner with minimal earnings to her credit despite racking up a 7 for 12 lifetime record.

[cj]

It doesn't work. It's silly. It's on par with saying that Roger Federer isn't an all-time great because he hasn't won Roland Garros.

Can you get anything right? Geez...

[gm10]

What are you talking about? Macho Again? See, this is what I mean. You are hopeless.

I didn't repeat any campaign. I simply questioned why St Trinians deserved such accolades being she is only a Grade 2 winner with minimal earnings to her credit despite racking up a 7 for 12 lifetime record.

That is repeating the same campaign with different ads. Why can't you just be honest. You do not like synthetic, hence you can never accept Zenyatta as the incredible horse that she is. I don't even understand why. It's just a surface. As legitimate as dirt. It's probably more difficult to win a synthetic race than a dirt race. And why devote a whole thread to your left-handed compliment?

[PaceAdvantage]

That is repeating the same campaign with different ads. Why can't you just be honest. You do not like synthetic, hence you can never accept Zenyatta as the incredible horse that she is. I don't even understand why. It's just a surface. As legitimate as dirt. It's probably more difficult to win a synthetic race than a dirt race. And why devote a whole thread to your left-handed compliment?Do you know how incredibly condescending and pompous it is to suggest that I am not being genuine in my writings here on this website? I've been writing here for ten years now...I never write anything I don't believe in when it comes to horses.

If I say that I believe that Zenyatta is a special horse with an incredible will to win, I mean it. If I write that I want Zenyatta to win every race she is entered into, I mean it (with the sole exception if it is against Rachel Alexandra).

What I can't even BEGIN to comprehend, is why IF I happen to bring up a point or two that isn't 100% flattering towards Zenyatta, it automatically means (in your head at least), that I want her to lose and that I hate synthetics, and that my only goal in life is to discredit her.

I don't hate synthetics. I view them as a third surface, along with turf and dirt. Unless and until they replace dirt here completely, this is the way I will view them...as a minority surface here in America, which is what they are.

Some of you should really think long and hard before you hit that SUBMIT REPLY button.