What is it about serious horseplayers?

[Track Phantom]

I've always wondered why people like me, and most likely those of you reading this post, are so drawn to this game. We spend thousands of hours 'capping, betting, reading, watching, talking about horse racing BUT most every other sane human being has almost zero interest (or maybe just a passing interest on big days).

For years, I would bring friends, or girlfriends, out to the track. I would help them 'cap, bet, and understand the game. Not one....NOT ONE came back on their own.

What is it about people like us that get racing in their blood while 99.9% of the rest of the public are immune?

I always found that interesting. There was a time when I went to the track, knew nothing, lost and became obsessed with teaching myself how to win at the game. How come I didn't walk out of the track that first day without a desire to come back?

[shouldacoulda]

I think it is the challenge to do what is deemed impossible by the masses and they give you money when you're right. You have total control over how you wager and when and where. Try skipping a few hands at a Blackjack table until the deck is favorable.

Personally I am a horse lover. When I was a kid my cousins in NJ lived near a culdesac. We would go into the woods and then turn left and there was a fence there. If we were lucky the horses would be there. They were so gentle and friendly (we were little, 5 or 6 years old) we would pet them and bring a carrot for them. Ever since then I was a horse lover and I think most players are too. They are incredibly beautiful, intelligent animals.

I think serious horse players are also intelligent. :cool: That's why a lot of people don't bother to learn the game. They would rather mindlessly pour their money into lottery games with ridiculous odds or slot machines also with ridiculous odds.

[PhantomOnTour]

I've said it a million times:

Folks who don't play the horses (or are not racing fans) just don't know how friggin great this game is. They just don't know man. I try to drum up interest in racing, but lots of folks seem intent on living their entire lives without experiencing the greatest game ever...EVER!!!

God help those people...

[eastie]

Everyone that I turned on to Saratoga is still going back. Maybe that's the key. Everyone's first trip to the track should be a road trip to the Spa.

[Robert Goren]

I've always wondered why people like me, and most likely those of you reading this post, are so drawn to this game. We spend thousands of hours 'capping, betting, reading, watching, talking about horse racing BUT most every other sane human being has almost zero interest (or maybe just a passing interest on big days). It is called addiction.

[Overlay]

What got me hooked was (in no particular order):

1) the mental exercise/challenge of handicapping;

2) the quantitative/statistical aspect of handicapping (although I suppose other personality types could be just as drawn to the qualitative/subjective side of the game)(body language; what is the horse doing in today's race?, etc.));

3) being able to win consistently through the exercise of skill (in contrast to games where you're partially or totally dependent for short-term success on random chance/blind luck, and where consistent long-term success is not even a possibility);

4) the fact that you're competing against the person next to you (which might have an element of pride to it -- "being smarter than the next guy"), rather than a house edge that might be smaller in other wagering games, but that is fixed against you on every single bet;

5) the history of the sport;

6) the excitement of watching a race, particularly when a great horse is involved (Secretariat's Belmont, made me a fan (not just from a handicapping standpoint) for life);

7) the beauty of some of the great race courses (such as Santa Anita, Keeneland, Arlington Park, or Belmont Park). (My great regret is having once lived in New York City and not having gone to Saratoga.)

[badcompany]

For years, I would bring friends, or girlfriends, out to the track. I would help them 'cap, bet, and understand the game. Not one....NOT ONE came back on their own.



For the same reason I've dated women who were into musical theatre but couldn't get me to go to one of those shows at gunpoint.

Different people have different tastes.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

I think serious horse players are also intelligent. :cool: That's why a lot of people don't bother to learn the game. They would rather mindlessly pour their money into lottery games with ridiculous odds or slot machines also with ridiculous odds.
The great paradox of the horseplayer: It attracts intelligent gamblers who play into an average track takeout of 20%.

[Overlay]

The great paradox of the horseplayer: It attracts intelligent gamblers who play into an average track takeout of 20%.

That's true (and regrettable), but racing is still pari-mutuel. That's what attracts the intelligent player in the first place. (The sport uses awareness of that fact to keep takeouts so high.) And that's also what makes it increasingly important to base play on wagering value, rather than squandering the main advantage that pari-mutuel betting offers by acting as if the "object of the game" is to find and bet the one horse that is most likely to win, regardless of what its odds might be.

[badcompany]

The great paradox of the horseplayer: It attracts intelligent gamblers who play into an average track takeout of 20%.

Even intelligent people often make bad decisions.:)

[SMOO]

I think it is the challenge to do what is deemed impossible by the masses and they give you money when you're right. You have total control over how you wager and when and where. Try skipping a few hands at a Blackjack table until the deck is favorable.



:ThmbUp:

[jballscalls]

The great paradox of the horseplayer: It attracts intelligent gamblers who play into an average track takeout of 20%.

Damn, i took the over on +- 15 posts before someone complained about takeout in this thread. can always count on you to gear any thread towards it!

Valento,

back to the original point of your thread, i'm curious how old were you when you started going to the track?? i'm generally of the theory that most serious horseplayers are introduced to the game in their youth or teens.

[bpiets]

I've always wondered why people like me, and most likely those of you reading this post, are so drawn to this game. We spend thousands of hours 'capping, betting, reading, watching, talking about horse racing BUT most every other sane human being has almost zero interest (or maybe just a passing interest on big days).

For years, I would bring friends, or girlfriends, out to the track. I would help them 'cap, bet, and understand the game. Not one....NOT ONE came back on their own.

What is it about people like us that get racing in their blood while 99.9% of the rest of the public are immune?

I always found that interesting. There was a time when I went to the track, knew nothing, lost and became obsessed with teaching myself how to win at the game. How come I didn't walk out of the track that first day without a desire to come back?

...IF these 'first-time'-FOLK' ... WON A FEW RACES then 'they' might return ...but most days when 'i' bring a first 'timer' those are days when 'i' tend to just break even...or have my spot play come up short.... :D

[Horseplayersbet.com]

That's true (and regrettable), but racing is still pari-mutuel. That's what attracts the intelligent player in the first place. (The sport uses awareness of that fact to keep takeouts so high.) And that's also what makes it increasingly important to base play on wagering value, rather than squandering the main advantage that pari-mutuel betting offers by acting as if the "object of the game" is to find and bet the one horse that is most likely to win, regardless of what its odds might be.
Though not pari-mutuel both poker and sports betting have players pitted against the public, which give the player a chance at long term success. The lower house take and/or juice for these two games make it more likely that long term winners can be had.
In pokers case, bad players who lose more than the house edge give good players a fighting chance.
In sports betting, there is a chance there could be an error in the line, and because the line is made to try to attract equal money on each side, there is lots of room for public error.
When I was betting on football, and working in an office, I used to use the office pools as my source of handicapping.
There is an inverse relationship when it comes to point spread office pools. If 60% of the entrants play one team, the chance that team wins is 40% (at least this is how it seemed). If a team attracted 80% support, it had a 20% chance of covering.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Damn, i took the over on +- 15 posts before someone complained about takeout in this thread. can always count on you to gear any thread towards it!

Valento,

back to the original point of your thread, i'm curious how old were you when you started going to the track?? i'm generally of the theory that most serious horseplayers are introduced to the game in their youth or teens.
I started a thread on how members here were introduced to horse racing, and it is pretty apparent that most were introduced by family or friends at an early age.
But this was a time when it was the only game in town, and the stands were packed with loads of regulars.
We lost two generations of potential players so far, and to be honest, I don't see those days ever coming back.
Horse racing is going to have to be forced to focus on the gambling aspect and promote the winning gamblers.

[jballscalls]

Horse racing is going to have to be forced to focus on the gambling aspect and promote the winning gamblers.

I agree with many of your points, the only problem is finding them!

[andymays]

What is it about serious Horseplayers?

They're a dying breed. Literally!

[rastajenk]

Damn, i took the over on +- 15 posts before someone complained about takeout in this thread. And you call yourself a handicapper? C'mon, man! :D

[kenwoodall2]

I was asked by my brother to help him handicap before I ever touched a form. I had been around horses and racing as a kid in grocery store contests and the county fairs.
Most people I know would rather take random chances than learn anything involving simple arithmetic, most do not know math, even HS grads. Most think it is too complicated, that horses are being abused, racing is slow, do not understand that by definition pari-mutuel means odds (and not number of times you pick the winner) are directly related to ROI.
But I must say newbies also hear all the decades old, untrue racing myths that almost all players buy into.
And that is why I do OK when I bet, pick, oan/or handicap- I learn the "rules" and then watch for exceptions!

[JustRalph]

I've always wondered why people like me, and most likely those of you reading this post, are so drawn to this game. We spend thousands of hours 'capping, betting, reading, watching, talking about horse racing BUT most every other sane human being has almost zero interest (or maybe just a passing interest on big days).

For years, I would bring friends, or girlfriends, out to the track. I would help them 'cap, bet, and understand the game. Not one....NOT ONE came back on their own.

What is it about people like us that get racing in their blood while 99.9% of the rest of the public are immune?

I always found that interesting. There was a time when I went to the track, knew nothing, lost and became obsessed with teaching myself how to win at the game. How come I didn't walk out of the track that first day without a desire to come back?

Because the cross word puzzle in the local paper is good enough for most.

There are also people who are just against gambling. Just like those who are against guns, because they are guns. They don't know a damn thing about either, but they know they are against them

I have a relative who flipped out when I took her husband to the race track because he gambled with a $100 bucks. She flipped. Btw, their household income is about 200k a year and I happen to know they have a about 400k in the bank......and she flipped over a hundred bucks. :bang:

Money makes some people weird........losing ten bucks on a race is the end of the world to some people. I pity them............

[castaway01]

As usual, JustRalph is on target with his post. I don't think it's a big deal that horse racing isn't extremely popular---it's a niche sport/activity like many others, and we shouldn't be ashamed for enjoying wagering or watching horses run. The sport has a ton of problems, but so do many others, and sometimes we forget that here.

[tzipi]

For the same reason I've dated women who were into musical theatre but couldn't get me to go to one of those shows at gunpoint.

Different people have different tastes.

Very true and good way to put it :D . There's other games/sports millions of people love to watch and bet on that I just do not like or find fun and they can't imagine why. Everyone's different.

[Sericm]

Like many others went to the track with my Dad. He wasn't a handicapper just a gambler.

Got hooked on watching the horses run and the beauty of which the thorobred is.

Took the form home and bought Ainsle's "Complete Guide to Thorobred Racing."

Started looking for that magic formula that would give me a winner. Of course it isn't there.

Got hooked on this great puzzle called handicapping..

Read all the books on speed handicapping, Bob Hebert, Gordon Jones, Andy Beyer. Dabbled with my own figures for awhile.

Came to realize there was more to it than just picking the fastest horse,
speed, pace, class, jockey trainer combo's, pedigree.

Nothing better than this great puzzle of PICKING A WINNER.

[SMOO]

When I was betting on football, and working in an office, I used to use the office pools as my source of handicapping.
There is an inverse relationship when it comes to point spread office pools. If 60% of the entrants play one team, the chance that team wins is 40% (at least this is how it seemed). If a team attracted 80% support, it had a 20% chance of covering.:ThmbUp:
I have used to some success the ESPN "polls" as to winners of big games. The more the public likes one side, the less likely that side is to win/cover the spread. Works even better when the public loves the underdog.

[thaskalos]

Serious horse playing is not suitable for the masses...it goes against human nature. Not only do you lose money, but you lose on races where you expect to win...making you doubt yourself repeatedly. Your losses often come in streaks, and the race results sometimes contradict your opinions SO MUCH, that you often feel like you are the dumbest player in the game...

But this game is also, in my opinion, the "cleanest" form of Democracy left on the planet. There is no status discrimination...doctors, lawyers, bricklayers, the unemployed...all gathered together, for a common goal...the winner of the next race.

[GaryG]

Horse racing is going to have to be forced to focus on the gambling aspect and promote the winning gamblers.Every good player that I know, except Michael Kipness, tries to remain as anonymous as possible. It is like the way Tony Accardo ran the Chicago Outfit. "Keep your head down" was the term he used. The IRS would be taking notice of any "very successful gamblers".

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Every good player that I know, except Michael Kipness, tries to remain as anonymous as possible. It is like the way Tony Accardo ran the Chicago Outfit. "Keep your head down" was the term he used. The IRS would be taking notice of any "very successful gamblers".
We do know many winning poker players. They are in our face.
Lately a few whales have been interviewed. But then again, racing doesn't really want to go there. They don't want to send the message that in order to be successful, the player needs a much lower takeout.

[Stillriledup]

Serious horse playing is not suitable for the masses...it goes against human nature. Not only do you lose money, but you lose on races where you expect to win...making you doubt yourself repeatedly. Your losses often come in streaks, and the race results sometimes contradict your opinions SO MUCH, that you often feel like you are the dumbest player in the game...

But this game is also, in my opinion, the "cleanest" form of Democracy left on the planet. There is no status discrimination...doctors, lawyers, bricklayers, the unemployed...all gathered together, for a common goal...the winner of the next race.


Great post.

The best thing about race horse handicapping is that you can't rest on your laurels. If you are a pro athlete who played 20 years in the 'bigs' and then retired, you have a 'retirement ceremony' to look forward to, where all your friends and teammates can come out and heap praise on you. IN racing, no one heaps praise, you're only as good as your last selection or your last bet.

[Track Phantom]

17

[Track Phantom]

Lots of great responses but they are, for the most part, explaining why you are playing the game or why the game is so great. What is interesting is, not that you went home and read a book to teach yourself how to play, as I did, but that you were the only one of 50 people to desire to do such.

I believe there is likely some genetic or psychological trait that all players have. Horse racing is significantly different from other types of gambling and, while I do believe it is an addiction, it is likely filling the void of something totally different than that of a slot or lottery player.

I think its almost as if you have the horse racing "bug" or you don't. Those that don't will never, ever take the game seriously no matter how much exposure they get to it. Those that do have the "bug" will become addicted or obsessed with the game almost instantly from the time they first get involved.

[WJ47]

I have a cranky 90 year old grandmother who absolutely hates horse racing. Apparently my grandfather, who died 30 years ago, used to go to the track and come home "grumpy." Well, anyway, Grandma thinks that I've got racing in my blood from my grandfather. She made him stop going to the track and apparently he never gambled again on anything other than playing 257 (his license plate) every day in the daily numbers. Grandma is extremely disappointed that both my sister and I are avid horseplayers.

She makes a comment about it every time she sees me reading the DRF. I feel sorry for my grandfather; he died relatively young of a stroke. It makes me sad to think that he was forced to give up his racing hobby. I wish he could have played more because he didn't really have anything else fun in his life. I've asked my mother about my grandfather to find out if he was losing the mortgage or food money, but mom said that they never went without anything. Grandpa worked hard and racing was his hobby and entertainment. But Grandma never had a hobby (except complaining and yelling) and she didn't want anyone else to have a hobby either. She still doesn't.

I wish I had a good family story about handicapping, but I learned to read a form from experienced horseplayers. I was a waitress at a truck stop about 20 years ago. When the harness races at Buffalo Raceway would let out, a group of horseplayers would come to the truck stop and get coffee. They'd sit for hours, sucking down coffee refills and handicapping the next days races. I was curious about the racing forms, they looked like puzzles! I'd ask questions here and there and one horseplayer taught me how to read the form. He'd tell the best stories each night about bad beats, scores, interesting racetrack characters, ect. It just seemed so much more fun than Bingo, Lotto or slots. I started out playing harness horses, then moved to thoroughbreds.

I really fell in love with racing after reading Andy Beyer's books. I've read alot of books in my life (English major), but none have ever been more enjoyable than Andy Beyer's books. I reread them all at least once a year! I remember how he told the story of the guy who had all the old racing forms stacked up. The guy didn't have much money, but his life was a joy! :) Andy Beyer said that when you open the racing form you never know if its going to be the one that changes your life! Now that's profound! :)

[shouldacoulda]

The great paradox of the horseplayer: It attracts intelligent gamblers who play into an average track takeout of 20%.
If you want to dance, somebody has to pay the band.

[tbwinner]

I keep at this game because of the excitement and challenge, and I think that's what keeps most.

I made it a point when I really went avid two years back to not talk about my racing and wagering "addiction" as some people have labeled it. Sure when I have a great day at the track I'd like to mention it to someone, but don't knowing that they very well could want to come with me to "go off my picks" - this has happened once before and being as clueless as they were, ruining my day.

That's why I make racing and playing the horses a solo venture, except when I'm with the guys of one of my racing partnerships.

[Robert Fischer]

I believe there is likely some genetic or psychological trait that all players have.

could be.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

If you want to dance, somebody has to pay the band.
The band would make more money if takeout was cut substantially.

[Stillriledup]

If you want to dance, somebody has to pay the band.

NFL bettors dance, but they're not paying the band. How come?

[thaskalos]

NFL bettors dance, but they're not paying the band. How come? They save money by hiring DJs.

[cnollfan]

I have a cranky 90 year old grandmother who absolutely hates horse racing. Apparently my grandfather, who died 30 years ago, used to go to the track and come home "grumpy." Well, anyway, Grandma thinks that I've got racing in my blood from my grandfather. She made him stop going to the track and apparently he never gambled again on anything other than playing 257 (his license plate) every day in the daily numbers. Grandma is extremely disappointed that both my sister and I are avid horseplayers.

She makes a comment about it every time she sees me reading the DRF. I feel sorry for my grandfather; he died relatively young of a stroke. It makes me sad to think that he was forced to give up his racing hobby. I wish he could have played more because he didn't really have anything else fun in his life. I've asked my mother about my grandfather to find out if he was losing the mortgage or food money, but mom said that they never went without anything. Grandpa worked hard and racing was his hobby and entertainment. But Grandma never had a hobby (except complaining and yelling) and she didn't want anyone else to have a hobby either. She still doesn't.

I wish I had a good family story about handicapping, but I learned to read a form from experienced horseplayers. I was a waitress at a truck stop about 20 years ago. When the harness races at Buffalo Raceway would let out, a group of horseplayers would come to the truck stop and get coffee. They'd sit for hours, sucking down coffee refills and handicapping the next days races. I was curious about the racing forms, they looked like puzzles! I'd ask questions here and there and one horseplayer taught me how to read the form. He'd tell the best stories each night about bad beats, scores, interesting racetrack characters, ect. It just seemed so much more fun than Bingo, Lotto or slots. I started out playing harness horses, then moved to thoroughbreds.

I really fell in love with racing after reading Andy Beyer's books. I've read alot of books in my life (English major), but none have ever been more enjoyable than Andy Beyer's books. I reread them all at least once a year! I remember how he told the story of the guy who had all the old racing forms stacked up. The guy didn't have much money, but his life was a joy! :) Andy Beyer said that when you open the racing form you never know if its going to be the one that changes your life! Now that's profound! :)

Great post.

My dad, grandfather (his father-in-law) and my grandmother (his mom) all took me to the races at various times when I was a kid. I always liked it but didn't get the bug until I was 13, when I picked a 23-1 shot in the field who won, Interest Me. I was hooked after that. It didn't hurt that Interest Me worked his way up from $2000 claiming to stakes races, once running 5 1/2 furlongs in 1:02 4/5.

My dad was a savvy gambler but didn't have much interest in the nuts and bolts of handicapping. One of my high-school teachers did. He was the first person I met who could see things in the Form that were material but not obvious. I was doubly hooked after that.

[shouldacoulda]

NFL bettors dance, but they're not paying the band. How come?
Actually they do in a way. Where the house advantage there is, the spread, and all ties lose. In every form of gambling there is a house edge, and the law of averages is what keeps them in business. I would rather pay a take out that you don't even really feel, as the odds payoff is what it is. Where there is no house advantage. Just you, the field, the tote board and your fellow bettors. The rest is up to you.

[thaskalos]

Actually they do in a way. Where the house advantage there is, the spread, and all ties lose. In every form of gambling there is a house edge, and the law of averages is what keeps them in business. I would rather pay a take out that you don't even really feel, as the odds payoff is what it is. Where there is no house advantage. Just you, the field, the tote board and your fellow bettors. The rest is up to you. All ties lose? I am glad that you know what you are talking about...

[shouldacoulda]

I was referring to the pools

[Grits]

I have a cranky 90 year old grandmother who absolutely hates horse racing. Apparently my grandfather, who died 30 years ago, used to go to the track and come home "grumpy." Well, anyway, Grandma thinks that I've got racing in my blood from my grandfather. She made him stop going to the track and apparently he never gambled again on anything other than playing 257 (his license plate) every day in the daily numbers. Grandma is extremely disappointed that both my sister and I are avid horseplayers.

She makes a comment about it every time she sees me reading the DRF. I feel sorry for my grandfather; he died relatively young of a stroke. It makes me sad to think that he was forced to give up his racing hobby. I wish he could have played more because he didn't really have anything else fun in his life. I've asked my mother about my grandfather to find out if he was losing the mortgage or food money, but mom said that they never went without anything. Grandpa worked hard and racing was his hobby and entertainment. But Grandma never had a hobby (except complaining and yelling) and she didn't want anyone else to have a hobby either. She still doesn't.

No, to me this part is sad, WJ47.

At age 90, its a safe bet that "grandma dearest" probably never had an 8 to 10 hour a day job outside of home such as the one grandpa had that kept the roof over her head, the food on the table, and the clothes on everyone's backs. Its so sad that grandpa felt he had to endure her orders and her b!tching. Had he lived long enough, he, no doubt, would've loved going to the racetrack with his granddaughters, and teaching them to read the Form.

Too, had he remained in good health, maybe he could've unloaded grandma and taken another wife. One that would have appreciated him, and not made his life so miserable. Poor man; heartbreaking.

And as far as today, I'd find means to handle Grandma, particularly if she was all up in my business about my love of horseracing and handicapping. My first would be--having a whole lot of difficulty finding time to get over for a visit to her house, to the retirement center, or to the nursing home--whichever. My time would be quite limited. Misery loves company, fortunately though, company doesn't have to love misery.

Enjoy your racing and your DRF!!! Glad you persevered. ;)

[Stillriledup]

Actually they do in a way. Where the house advantage there is, the spread, and all ties lose. In every form of gambling there is a house edge, and the law of averages is what keeps them in business. I would rather pay a take out that you don't even really feel, as the odds payoff is what it is. Where there is no house advantage. Just you, the field, the tote board and your fellow bettors. The rest is up to you.

My point was that the vig that bettors are paying is not going to the NFL players, not one penny of it. The vig (takeout) in racing is going directly to the people to put on the show. The bettors are forced to subsidize this industry. A 100 dollar bettor shouldnt have to give the track 20 non refundable bucks just to handle his action.

[shouldacoulda]

I do see your point, but football wasn't set up as a gambling venue. Lets be glad these horses and jockeys don't get paid like NFL players or the takeout would be much higher, or the admission $100.00 a day like the NFL games. Never mind the PSL's.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Actually they do in a way. Where the house advantage there is, the spread, and all ties lose. In every form of gambling there is a house edge, and the law of averages is what keeps them in business. I would rather pay a take out that you don't even really feel, as the odds payoff is what it is. Where there is no house advantage. Just you, the field, the tote board and your fellow bettors. The rest is up to you.
All ties lose? Huh?
Anyway, the house edge and track takeout are the same thing when comparing football betting to horse racing. In betting sports you bet $110 and get paid $210 if you win. In horse racing, in a match race on horses with even action, you bet $110 and get paid $182.60.
True, most people don't "feel" the takeout if it is 12% or 31%, however it affects everyone, but the same case could be made for juice on sports bets. In fact, a two team parlay that pays 2.6-1 has no juice associated with it.
Most of the time it is much easier to find an edge in sports betting with a 4.6% house edge than horse racing with a 20% house edge. In both cases the final odds are determined by how the public bets, not necessarily the true probabilities of an event occurring.

You seem to have shifted the goal posts here. You stated the band has to get paid if you want to dance.

As pointed out here, the band gets no direct money from gambling, though a strong case could be made that if not for gambling, the NFL would probably lose commercial profitability.

And to go a step further, Woodbine wants to be able to book sports games in the near future as a way to make more money and increase purses. How much will they be paying the sports band by allowing its patrons to dance to the sports beat? Nada of course.

[shouldacoulda]

This is really pointless. I don't bet football. Heck I can't even say I am a devoted follower other than the Superbowl. If the takeout bothers you so much, there is an easy solution. Don't play.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

This is really pointless. I don't bet football. Heck I can't even say I am a devoted follower other than the Superbowl. If the takeout bothers you so much, there is an easy solution. Don't play.
You are moving the goalposts again. The discussion here is about what is appealing and what is unappealing when it comes to betting horses. And the bigger picture, why isn't horse race gambling more appealing to all gamblers.

The reality is that all other forms of gambling have gained handle over the last 10 years while horse racing has remained stagnant.

The biggest reason is because as a gamble going against straight takeout, there are pretty much next to no winners. Unlike poker where we can see the winners on TV, or sports betting where the game is at least perceived as beatable because of the low house edge.

I don't bet football too much either, but I don't bet very much money into a straight takeout either.

[shouldacoulda]

Okay lets leave the "goalposts" where they are. The reasons below I previously listed are what attract me to the game.

I would rather pay a take out that you don't even really feel, as the odds payoff is what it is. Where there is no house advantage. Just you, the field, the tote board and your fellow bettors. The rest is up to you.

As for takeout being the reason for the decline in racing I disagree that that is the #1 reason the sport is losing patrons. I believe it is more from the "perceived" corruption. Juicing horses and giving pain killing medications. I have never once heard a losing player say "that darn take out is what is causing me to lose". I have heard many say "that trainer is a thief" or that "jockey just rode a boat race". I certainly don't expect the industry to work for free for our entertainment. You do tend to get what you pay for.

[badcompany]

Okay lets leave the "goalposts" where they are. The reasons below I previously listed are what attract me to the game.



As for takeout being the reason for the decline in racing I disagree that that is the #1 reason the sport is losing patrons. I believe it is more from the "perceived" corruption. Juicing horses and giving pain killing medications. I have never once heard a losing player say "that darn take out is what is causing me to lose". I have heard many say "that trainer is a thief" or that "jockey just rode a boat race". I certainly don't expect the industry to work for free for our entertainment. You do tend to get what you pay for.

Horseracing is perceived as "unbeatable" even by professional gamblers. As I mentioned previously, in an episode of Poker After Dark, four long-time poker pros were discussing horseracing and all agreed that it's a bad bet because of the vig. The young people who play online and live poker aren't stupid.

In another thread on this forum, an English guy mentioned that horseracing in England has a 3-5% takeout and the number of pros, there, increases every year. He also said, those pros wouldn't survive under U.S conditions.

When simulcasting became prevalent is when the takeout should've been lowered. The increased churn started busting players at warp speed and those players weren't replaced.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Okay lets leave the "goalposts" where they are. The reasons below I previously listed are what attract me to the game.



As for takeout being the reason for the decline in racing I disagree that that is the #1 reason the sport is losing patrons. I believe it is more from the "perceived" corruption. Juicing horses and giving pain killing medications. I have never once heard a losing player say "that darn take out is what is causing me to lose". I have heard many say "that trainer is a thief" or that "jockey just rode a boat race". I certainly don't expect the industry to work for free for our entertainment. You do tend to get what you pay for.
Horse racing has always been perceived as a game that is sometimes fixed, and drugs have been prevalent since day one, though not tested until 1936 I believe. There has always been that taint. Movies were made in the 40's and 50's about cashing in on the big fix.

As for calling horse racing entertainment, fine, call it that. However when it comes to gambling for entertainment purpose, gamblers get off much cheaper betting sports, blackjack, or poker.

No one is suggesting that horsemen shouldn't get paid via the vig. What is being argued is the vig is too high, and if lowered, it would attract more people, and the bottom line for the horsemen and tracks would be larger.

And now with the shift away from people going to live venues to bet on horses, horse racing has failed to compete versus other forms of gambling.

Horseracing is perceived as "unbeatable" even by professional gamblers. As I mentioned previously, in an episode of Poker After Dark, four long-time poker pros were discussing horseracing and all agreed that it's a bad bet because of the vig. The young people who play online and live poker aren't stupid.

In another thread on this forum, an English guy mentioned that horseracing in England has a 3-5% takeout and the number of pros, there, increases every year. He also said, those pros wouldn't survive under U.S conditions.

When simulcasting became prevalent is when the takeout should've been lowered. The increased churn started busting players at warp speed and those players weren't replaced.
:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: Exactly

[shouldacoulda]

However when it comes to gambling for entertainment purpose, gamblers get off much cheaper betting sports, blackjack, or poker.

While it may be true you can get away cheaper with poker and sports wagering, I don't care for either one. For me, playing blackjack is like watching paint dry. In spite of the obstacles in each case be it rake, vig or house edge or spread, I would take my chances at the track any day of the week. In spite of the takeout.

[badcompany]

The biggest reason is because as a gamble going against straight takeout, there are pretty much next to no winners.

Except, of course, on this oasis of profitability called Pace Advantage where guys who live in areas where houses go for 50k somehow see making that much a year betting ponies as chickenfeed.;)

[5k-claim]

.... No one is suggesting that horsemen shouldn't get paid via the vig. What is being argued is the vig is too high, and if lowered, it would attract more people, and the bottom line for the horsemen and tracks would be larger.
....

Hi Horseplayersbet.com,

I am not a horseplayer, but am learning about the issues you guys are concerned about by reading threads on this forum. If nothing else, I now believe that you should get lower takeout if that is what you want. (It is an issue that I had never spent much time thinking about before joining this forum.)

I believe you (and others) when you say a lower vig will attract more serious gamblers because it will be more in line with other gambling games. That makes sense. And anything that increases the volume of wagers to the point where the lowered takeout (20% to 9% or whatever) is more than compensated for by the increased volume is fine by me. The more money available to trickle down to the cheaper purses the better.

But what I don't understand is why some members on this forum (not you) relentlessly criticize any attempt by a track to try and attract more "dumb" money into the pools from the general public (who barely even know what a takeout is, if at all) with ideas for increased attendance, and scream "only lower takeout, only lower takeout!" over and over again. Are you guys not anticipating that the level of serious player that you will attract with lower takeout will either get really competitive at the game really fast, or quit and go back to something more profitable? (The allure of profitability being what drew them in, in the first place.) All of you that are already established in your handicapping obviously have first run at the new guys, but how long will they let you beat them before they quit? Or is the theory that everyone's competitive juices will take over and nobody will ever quit, regardless of the competition, as long as the vig is in line with other gambling games- and so a lot more "dumb" money wouldn't even matter? This is what I have no idea about.

This is new territory for me. Try to take it easy on me as you explain it. I am fairly well convinced that I am on your side.

.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Nobody is against attracting newbies to the game. Every bettor wants more dumb money in the pools, however it is a belief, and I share it as well, that in order to attract newbies, there needs to be winners created (there needs to be a reason for someone to engage in the steep learning curve of handicapping races). All horseplayers need to last longer as well in order to get their friends and family to possibly try out horse racing.

What is questioned is whether it is possible to attract newbies without a lower takeout for the reasons cited above.

[Robert Goren]

Okay lets leave the "goalposts" where they are. The reasons below I previously listed are what attract me to the game.



As for takeout being the reason for the decline in racing I disagree that that is the #1 reason the sport is losing patrons. I believe it is more from the "perceived" corruption. Juicing horses and giving pain killing medications. I have never once heard a losing player say "that darn take out is what is causing me to lose". I have heard many say "that trainer is a thief" or that "jockey just rode a boat race". I certainly don't expect the industry to work for free for our entertainment. You do tend to get what you pay for.How has this changed in the last 50 years? Everything you just said was said when I started playing this game, probably even louder. About the only thing that has changed in the 50 years for the average horse better is the takeout.

[Hedevar]

How has this changed in the last 50 years? Everything you just said was said when I started playing this game, probably even louder. About the only thing that has changed in the 50 years for the average horse better is the takeout.

Anyone that doesn't think owners, trainers and jockeys were looking for every possible edge fifty years ago is being naive. It may be more sophisticated today but that doesn't mean people weren't trying everything they could think of and get away with fifty years ago.

[Robert Goren]

But what I don't understand is why some members on this forum (not you) relentlessly criticize any attempt by a track to try and attract more "dumb" money into the pools from the general public (who barely even know what a takeout is, if at all) with ideas for increased attendance, and scream "only lower takeout, only lower takeout!" over and over again. As one the loudest screamers, I will try make it clear. Horse racing is not survive by getting people who come out to the track once or twice year. It needs regular players. It is nice if they get somebody to come out for ever reason, but he doesn't come back it is a wasted effort. If he picked 3 winners and still lost money, he is not coming back. I don't get why this is so hard to understand.

[shouldacoulda]

Originally Posted by Robert Goren
How has this changed in the last 50 years? Everything you just said was said when I started playing this game, probably even louder. About the only thing that has changed in the 50 years for the average horse better is the takeout.
I wasn't saying it did change from 50 years ago. There was less competition for the gambling dollar then. That's what has changed besides the takeout. State lotteries, Fantasy football, casinos all over the place. That is what is competing with horse playing.

[JohnGalt1]

Even though someone can hit the quick pick button on the the SAM machine, for most, handicapping is time consuming.

Most gamblers want action and they want it fast and easy.

Most believe that horse race betting is a losing proposition. These are some of the same folks who buy lottery tickets and slam money into slots.

Those of you with racinos, is more money gambled through the mutuals or slots?

I actually have more fun handicapping--solving the puzzle--with pen and paper than going to the track. Because after the handiapping is done I know who should win some races, which races are unplayable due not wanting to play a low priced horse or because a race is made up entrants with equal chances.

Some friends ask me why I put a lot of time handicapping. I answer that I'm wagering real money.

[Sericm]

Regarding sports betting: I bet $100 on a football game and have to beat the spread. If you beat the spread you win $100.

I bet $100 on a 10-1 shot and it wins, I go home with a grand. Do I care what the takeout is, No.

Anybody that sits around worrying about the take-out is just a hypocrite any way. If you don't like it, don't bet. Simple as that.

[thaskalos]

Regarding sports betting: I bet $100 on a football game and have to beat the spread. If you beat the spread you win $100.

I bet $100 on a 10-1 shot and it wins, I go home with a grand. Do I care what the takeout is, No.

Anybody that sits around worrying about the take-out is just a hypocrite any way. If you don't like it, don't bet. Simple as that. Are you a regular player? My guess is you are not.

[GaryG]

Anybody that sits around worrying about the take-out is just a hypocrite any way. If you don't like it, don't bet. Simple as that.Those few percentage points can add up to important money over a season. I doubt that there is even one other player here who will agree with you. Back to school son.

[badcompany]

Those few percentage points can add up to important money over a season. I doubt that there is even one other player here who will agree with you. Back to school son.

I actually agree with the last part about not betting. Why complain about something over which you have complete control? Then again, I don't count on horseracing for anything except as a pastime.

[Sericm]

Are you a regular player? My guess is you are not.

I've been playing the horses for over 40 yrs. My first big bet for me was $20.00 to win on a horse called Rising Market in the mid-60's. He won and paid $27.80. I walked out with $278.00. That was pretty good for a 22 yr old kid in those years.

Did I worry about "jeez I should have over $300." No, I had $278.00.

I handicap and go to the track with a couple hundred 2 or three times a week.
Like most I win some and lose some. Granted this is just hobby to me so I don't worry about take out. Maybe if I was pushing a couple hundred thousand through the windows I might, but then if I was that bothered by it to where it affected my betting I just wouldn't bet.

If you think your playing a losing game than don't play. That's my whole point.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

People play games they think are losing games all the time. Is there anyone out there who plays slots thinking they beat the game in the long term?

I want the game to grow, and that is why I worry about takeout.

[badcompany]

If you think your playing a losing game than don't play. That's my whole point.

That said, I disagree with the first part.

The game has changed since you started playing. It's not about "A day at the track." Most of the money is being bet off-track. If the powers that be want to make that model viable, they're going to have to be more gambler friendly vis a vis lower takeout.

[Sericm]

That said, I disagree with the first part.

The game has changed since you started playing. It's not about "A day at the track." Most of the money is being bet off-track. If the powers that be want to make that model viable, they're going to have to be more gambler friendly vis a vis lower takeout.

But they aren't and everybody knows it. Do you think the pols in the state capitols are worried about it! If you think they are going to lower the take out and stop taxing winnings your living in OZ. They just don't care, gambling is a cash cow to the State legislatures. Lotteries keep expanding, Indian casinos are promised more slots and tables if they kick back a certain percentage and the race tracks are fair game because the players aren't organized and the majority of players don't care. They just want to make the big hit in supers and pick 5's and pick 6's. :bang: It's like butting your head against a brick wall.

[badcompany]

I'd argue, except that I agree with everything you said.;) That's why I don't take the game too seriously.

[GaryG]

Monmouth's take out on the P4 is 15%. I am pretty sure NYRA's P4 ia at least 25%. This is my favorite bet.

[shouldacoulda]

Those few percentage points can add up to important money over a season. I doubt that there is even one other player here who will agree with you. Back to school son.

Yeah, me. I thought this thread was about what drew you to the game and not what makes you sound like sour grapes. It was a nice thread, but I am done with it now. If you think the game is unbeatable, you are probably right. If you think the takeout is oppressive, you are probably right. If you think the takeout is the reason for losing, you are probably right. If you think I don't, and will never agree with you 100% you are probably right. But then, there is always BINGO!