Move over Citation,Cigar...Its Zenyatta!

[only11]

ENJOY WHILE WE HAVE HER!

[PaceAdvantage]

That was impressive...overcoming Mike Smith's crazy, wide-ass ride...

[only11]

That was impressive...overcoming Mike Smith's crazy, wide-ass ride...
PA what didnt you like about the ride?

[Dahoss9698]

Did Vic spontaneously combust after the wire?

[PaceAdvantage]

PA what didnt you like about the ride?He rode her like a 1/9 shot and almost got her beat...did u see him float her almost into the parking nearing the end of the turn for home? Was that necessary?

Guess I'll have to watch it again...

[cpitt84]

loved it....a nail biter but shes an incredible horse

[cpitt84]

when she was behind st trinians, my heart sank because it looked like zenyatta couldnt catch her. then all of a sudden, she did it.

[only11]

He rode her like a 1/9 shot and almost got her beat...did u see him float her almost into the parking lot coming out of the turn for home? Was that necessary?

Guess I'll have to watch it again...
Your right he rode her like a 1/9 shot...PA she might have 1 or 2 races left...they better choose there last 2 or 3 races carefully!!

[KidCapper]

Did Vic spontaneously combust after the wire?

lol That could be the funniest post I've ever read !!! :lol: :lol:

[cpitt84]

u hear the announcer? he was so pumped up about it "YEAH!!!"

[ArlJim78]

He rode her like a 1/9 shot and almost got her beat...did u see him float her almost into the parking nearing the end of the turn for home? Was that necessary?

Guess I'll have to watch it again...
It was some pretty good race riding by Garcia. Watch the replay, he went wide on purpose and before unleashing St. Trinians for the drive. That kid is a hell of a rider.

[classhandicapper]

I'm getting too old for this. :lol:

I knew St Trinians was a very good mare and set to run a big one. So when they turned for home and she was ahead by a couple of lengths I thought it was going to be close to impossible to run her down.

I was screaming at my TV so loudly I'm sure my neighbors think I'm a nut job. That was so freaking exciting. The top two ran a terrific race.

I'm so happy Zenyatta was able to fire another good effort despite my concerns that she wasn't 100%. I love being wrong about things like this.

[cuzimahustler]

My god was that a nail biter! Thought she was beat Im guessing there going to dirt next race.

[PaceAdvantage]

Your right he rode her like a 1/9 shot...PA she might have 1 or 2 races left...they better choose there last 2 or 3 races carefully!!1 or 2 races left? What nonsense! Almost as silly as those crying for Rachel's retirement after her first two...

Why would you say a mare who has only raced 17 times in her six years on this Earth only might have 1 or 2 races left?

[InsideThePylons-MW]

I thought she was beat. When she looked like she couldn't quite get there.....I screamed "DEPUTY!".....and she surged to the front.

[KidCapper]

I feel absolutely lucky to have watched Zenyatta and Cigar run in my betting "lifetime". Congrats to the "Queen".

[shouldacoulda]

I thought the race was lost when she went so wide. What a race!
Great race call too.

[classhandicapper]

1 or 2 races left? What nonsense! Almost as silly as those crying for Rachel's retirement after her first two...

Why would you say a mare who has only raced 17 times in her six years on this Earth only might have 1 or 2 races left?

I'm not sure about Zenyatta, but my heart only has 1 or 2 more races like that left. :D

[PaceAdvantage]

And where the hell did that SPEED DUEL (MINUS Zardana) come from? :lol:

Talk about your unexpected early pace scenario...

[andymays]

And where the hell did that SPEED DUEL (MINUS Zardana) come from? :lol:

Talk about your unexpected early pace scenario...

Nobody expected that. Talamo likes to send.

[Dahoss9698]

And where the hell did that SPEED DUEL (MINUS Zardana) come from? :lol:

Talk about your unexpected early pace scenario...

It was sort of weird. Two horses who had never shown any early speed ridden hard to make the front. I could see one, but two? Never saw that coming.

[only11]

1 or 2 races left? What nonsense! Almost as silly as those crying for Rachel's retirement after her first two...

Why would you say a mare who has only raced 17 times in her six years on this Earth only might have 1 or 2 races left?
What i meant was it does take its toll ,she is 6 and she a grinder....

[PaceAdvantage]

What i meant was it does take its toll ,she is 6 and she a grinder....She's six but she's still lightly raced...for heaven's sake she only raced FIVE TIMES last year...and this was only race number three for 2010 and the racing year is more than halfway finished...

It's not her age or the fact that she comes from off the pace (hell, i thought off-the-pace runners have it EASIER than horses like Rachel who fight their way amongst the early pace) that is going to cause her to lose eventually...it will be the fact that she will eventually be put into a field where there are much faster horses...that will CERTAINLY happen if she happens to go the Grade 1 open company dirt route...

[WinterTriangle]

It was a nail biter. Then I saw her put her head down and the ears start moving, and knew she was gonna dig in.

Sure made St. Trinian's run her butt off. :D

[only11]

She's six but she's still lightly raced...for heaven's sake she only raced FIVE TIMES last year...and this was only race number three for 2010 and the racing year is more than halfway finished...

It's not her age or the fact that she comes from off the pace (hell, i thought off-the-pace runners have it EASIER than horses like Rachel who fight their way amongst the early pace) that is going to cause her to lose eventually...it will be the fact that she will eventually be put into a field where there are much faster horses...that will CERTAINLY happen if she happens to go the Grade 1 open company dirt route...
She did carry 129...these days you just dont see that..

[cpitt84]

She did carry 129...these days you just dont see that..

im curious, how do they apply weight to a horse? (still learning the facts of horse racing)

[tzipi]

She did carry 129...these days you just dont see that..

You always have to carry more weight in races like that. Otherwise it would be totally unfair.

[Citation1947]

1 or 2 races left? What nonsense! Almost as silly as those crying for Rachel's retirement after her first two...

Why would you say a mare who has only raced 17 times in her six years on this Earth only might have 1 or 2 races left?

C'mon the kids only 11, give him/her a break.

[PhantomOnTour]

1 or 2 races left? What nonsense! Almost as silly as those crying for Rachel's retirement after her first two...

Why would you say a mare who has only raced 17 times in her six years on this Earth only might have 1 or 2 races left?
Congrats on being the first to bring up Rachel's name in a thread about Zenyatta.

[bisket]

when she was behind st trinians, my heart sank because it looked like zenyatta couldnt catch her. then all of a sudden, she did it.
with her ears pricked :cool:

[ArlJim78]

four good races this weekend, Zenyatta, Rachel, Rail Trip, Blame.
how great would it be if they all enter the gate for the classic along with Quality Road?

[Zippy Chippy]

Can someone post the link

[DeanT]

im curious, how do they apply weight to a horse? (still learning the facts of horse racing)

Here you go!

http://ezinearticles.com/?Understanding-Weight-and-Lengths-in-Horse-Racing-Handicapping&id=2210253

Nice to see you pumped for both filly wins this weekend.

[Zippy Chippy]

This is torture. Missed the race and not on YouTube yet. Can someone post link or put it on youtube

[PaceAdvantage]

Congrats on being the first to bring up Rachel's name in a thread about Zenyatta.A post sillier than the one saying Zenyatta only might have 1 or 2 left...who woulda thunk it this soon?

There is no rule that states you can't mention Zenyatta in a Rachel thread or vice versa...that much has been established with massive precedence.

[Kimsus]

What a race by











St Trinians. Wow.

[KidCapper]

I think with a sex change Cigar would've beat her...

[cpitt84]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hFuDhCfy54


zenyattas race

[classhandicapper]

She did carry 129...these days you just dont see that..

Consider it a blessing that so many otherwise sophisticated handicappers don't understand the impact pace can have on both the final time and winning margins in both synthetic and turf racing.

As long as people keep using a final time based handicapping model that works well on dirt to measure performance and ability for synthetic and turf horses, there will huge profits to be made when horses cross back and forth because an entire group of handicappers will continue to appraise them incorrectly.

[JustRalph]

I think you are all suckers......... :lol:

Smith waited just long enough to make it close..........

They have become PT Barnum on the west coast......... :lol:

I just wonder if they will ever get to her bottom, racing in CA......

I want to see her all out for more than a quarter mile.

Don't get me wrong.......I think she is one hell of a mare.......but I think they are toying with the crowd............just to make it close

[TheBid9]

And the "Z" train just keeps rolling!!!

Go Big Mama!!!

[Grits]

Man, this girl loves what she does!!!! She is one joy to watch.

I'm glad both, Rachel and she, won their races this weekend.

She had to work her big butt off for this one, but her stride and size got her there. These, and her smarts! Got to be the smartest racehorse I've ever seen. She knows where the wire is. Plus, she knows how much she's got to kick to get by whomever's in front of her.

St.T sure floated her wide on the turn . . . . my Lord. As for Z, I reckon she is blowing some after this one. She had to roll the last few strides. When she got to St.T, there was no comparing the size or the stride of the two though. St.T looked like a juvenile.

Vic's call was great. All excitement included! Its rare that a racecaller has the historic opportunity this man had today. I'm thrilled for him, and I'm sure he's grateful to be a part of such an exciting moment in racing. (Vic, you did a fine job, bud!!!!:ThmbUp: )

[OntheRail]

See what a little class can bring to a race. This was a thrilling one for sure... Ol Mike had to ply the leather more then I've seen in any other of her races.
St Trinians made her work for it. :faint:

[classhandicapper]

Only on synthetic and turf can a 24, 47.2 (close to 47.3) , 111.4 be considered a duel. Zenyatta ran her 1st quarter in 26 and her last 1/8th in 11.3. St. Trinians ran her 1st quarter in 25.3 and last 1/8th is 12 flat.

[bks]

PA wrote:

It's not her age or the fact that she comes from off the pace . . .that is going to cause her to lose eventually...it will be the fact that she will eventually be put into a field where there are much faster horses...that will CERTAINLY happen if she happens to go the Grade 1 open company dirt route...

That's because you apparently believe than when she's asked to track a 109.4 3/4's and/or a 135 flat mile on dirt, she won't have that lethal kick at the end.

But of course there is no evidence to support that. It's just a hunch you have.

Look what St. Trinian's just did to Zardana in this race, Zardana, who had the most perfect trip imaginable. St. Trinian's is a beast, and Zenyatta went by her after a tour of the parking lot with ears pricked.

Please come back sound Zenyatta, and please ship her East, Mr.s Moss and Shirreffs, for some late summer fun and profit.

[Grits]

four good races this weekend, Zenyatta, Rachel, Rail Trip, Blame.
how great would it be if they all enter the gate for the classic along with Quality Road?

It would be great! Watching QR last Monday in the grandstand at Belmont--I said then, they ALL (and I'm including Zenyatta, no doubt) better bring their best game and their best shoes to beat him. I still maintain it.

He's the absolute equivilent of lightning in a bottle!

[BluegrassProf]

But of course there is no evidence to support that.I'm pretty confident this is precisely the point.

[DeanT]

It's prof versus prof.

This could be good :)

11.3 huh Class? Pretty impressive. No wonder she was puffing.

[PaceAdvantage]

Only on synthetic and turf can a 24, 47.2 (close to 47.3) , 111.4 be considered a duel. Zenyatta ran her 1st quarter in 26 and her last 1/8th in 11.3. St. Trinians ran her 1st quarter in 25.3 and last 1/8th is 12 flat.Right. What I watched wasn't a duel. Take a look at the past performances of the horses in that race and tell me again that wasn't a duel.

For those horses, with those PPs, not only was that a duel...it was a MEGA DUEL....especially considering Zardana, the only horse in that race with even a hint of early speed, wasn't one of the dueling leaders.

[GaryG]

Zenyatta aside, I hate to see Cigar mentioned in the same thread as Citation. The Calumet colt had the best season by any 3yo - ever. Unfortunately, his reputation was tarnished when they brought him back at ages 5 and 6 to beacome the first millionaire. If you are not familiar with Citation, and I am sure that many here are not, look it up. Cigar was a very nice hiorse, but he would not have beaten a healthy Holy Bull.

[tzipi]

Zenyatta aside, I hate to see Cigar mentioned in the same thread as Citation. The Calumet colt had the best season by any 3yo - ever. Unfortunately, his reputation was tarnished when they brought him back at ages 5 and 6 to beacome the first millionaire. If you are not familiar with Citation, and I am sure that many here are not, look it up. Cigar was a very nice hiorse, but he would not have beaten a healthy Holy Bull.

A lot of people question the horses with consecutive wins and against what competition they ran against compared to others.

Also Cigar whipped Holy Bulls times at 1 1/4 everytime he ran(more than 5 times). So not so sure we can say HB would've beat Cigar at classic distances.

[PaceAdvantage]

That's because you apparently believe than when she's asked to track a 109.4 3/4's and/or a 135 flat mile on dirt, she won't have that lethal kick at the end.Quite the opposite... in fact, that's the only way I see her having even the slightest of chances winning on dirt against Grade 1 open company: a scorched Earth type of early pace scenario.

I hope this silly notion of Zenyatta's age doesn't catch on as some excuse when she finally loses on the dirt against some halfway decent opposition.

I fear that when she does lose in her first Grade 1 open company race on dirt, the excuse will be how old she is and how much she's already run...which is pretty funny considering she's as lightly raced as a horse can be for her stature and age.

[rrpic6]

See what a little class can bring to a race. This was a thrilling one for sure... Ol Mike had to ply the leather more then I've seen in any other of her races.
St Trinians made her work for it. :faint:

Really? Watch it again. Smith hand rides her the last 30 yards. He was not desperate at all. Z runs just fast enough to win. It seems she knows to do that. Her BC Classic race made me a true believer!

RR

[Kimsus]

See what a little class can bring to a race. This was a thrilling one for sure... Ol Mike had to ply the leather more then I've seen in any other of her races.
St Trinians made her work for it. :faint:

I honestly thought this was the day Zenyatta would not get up when I saw how much horse Garcia had and how hard St. Trinians was running in the end, much respect to her, she stretched Zenyatta as far as any horse I have seen, I'm not sure if it was the ride, St. Trinians, she wasn't at her best or a combination of all of the above. But that was a great race to watch, one for the books for sure.

[DRIVEWAY]

She's six but she's still lightly raced...for heaven's sake she only raced FIVE TIMES last year...and this was only race number three for 2010 and the racing year is more than halfway finished...

It's not her age or the fact that she comes from off the pace (hell, i thought off-the-pace runners have it EASIER than horses like Rachel who fight their way amongst the early pace) that is going to cause her to lose eventually...it will be the fact that she will eventually be put into a field where there are much faster horses...that will CERTAINLY happen if she happens to go the Grade 1 open company dirt route...

People will look down memory lane with praise for the legacy dirt surface specialist. However, the future will be with the multi-surface specialists. It's 2010 and times have changed.

[depalma113]

Really? Watch it again. Smith hand rides her the last 30 yards. He was not desperate at all. Z runs just fast enough to win. It seems she knows to do that. Her BC Classic race made me a true believer!

RR

It wasn't a measured win. She was beat with an eighth of a mile to go. She worked as hard as she ever has for a win today. Smith put the whip away with about ten yards left after cracking her at least 12 times in the stretch.

It was a great performance by the mare, it certainly wasn't her doing just enough to win. The win was impressive as she has ever been.

St Trinians was extremely game and Zenyatta earned it big time today.

[bisket]

Only on synthetic and turf can a 24, 47.2 (close to 47.3) , 111.4 be considered a duel. Zenyatta ran her 1st quarter in 26 and her last 1/8th in 11.3. St. Trinians ran her 1st quarter in 25.3 and last 1/8th is 12 flat.
she has ran a faster 1/8th on dirt. we got her going faster just before and into the turn in the apple blossom. 10 4/5!!!!! she's got it to spare and some. i'm telling you she can take quality road at 1 1/8th. street sense another street cry could run an 1/8th like that also.

[classhandicapper]

Right. What I watched wasn't a duel. Take a look at the past performances of the horses in that race and tell me again that wasn't a duel.

For those horses, with those PPs, not only was that a duel...it was a MEGA DUEL....especially considering Zardana, the only horse in that race with even a hint of early speed, wasn't one of the dueling leaders.

What I am trying to get across is that even though those horses may have been running fast for "them", they were running slow for Zenyatta and St Trinias (who are vastly superior animals) thus preventing them from running to their maximum final time ability. That's why Z closed in a blazing last 1/8th of a mile and St T also finished extremely well.

Synthetic/turf races develop differently because the energy distribution requirements for success seem to be different than on dirt. They are typically more even paced on the front end in routes. So the final times of high level horses tend to be depressed when the pace is slow or even when they close from well off a more even pace.

It's not always clear what a high level horse that's been running too slow early will do when given a faster pace, but typically the figure will jump.

Zenyatta's career is littered with examples of this. It ws no accident she exploded to a 112 in the Classic when there were real horses in front of her.

Here's another example.

I can't vouch for the accuracy of Rail Trip's figures, but I think he got a 98 first out and a 108 yesterday. The 98 may have been accurate, but IMO it was a comical representation of his ability. They crawled in that race. It was almost a 100% certainty he could run faster if given a better pace.

There are also many examples of these synthetic horses making huge jumps when they come east to run on dirt. The races are different and they get better paces. Of course some simply like dirt better also (or hate it) and that accounts for big fluctuations also, but a big part of it is pace.

The faster the pace the faster the final time until you hit a horse's breaking point. Then it goes the other way. The thing is some of these top synthetic horses are running well below their breaking points in many of their races.

IMO whatever figure Zenyatta and St Trinians are assigned (probably somewhere between 100-104), they are both capable of better.

[OntheRail]

Really? Watch it again. Smith hand rides her the last 30 yards. He was not desperate at all. Z runs just fast enough to win. It seems she knows to do that. Her BC Classic race made me a true believer!

RR
I've watched it a few times.... counted more then 12 down the lane. I'd say Mike's cheeks were tight. Cause it was only about neck at the wire. And Zenaytta was puffing after the race.

[PaceAdvantage]

What I am trying to get across is that even though those horses may have been running fast for "them", they were running slow for Zenyatta and St Trinias (who are vastly superior animals) thus preventing them from running to their maximum final time ability. That's why Z closed in a blazing last 1/8th of a mile and St T also finished extremely well.

Synthetic/turf races develop differently because the energy distribution requirements for success seem to be different than on dirt. They are typically more even paced on the front end in routes. So the final times of high level horses tend to be depressed when the pace is slow or even when they close from well off a more even pace.

It's not always clear what a high level horse that's been running too slow early will do when given a faster pace, but typically the figure will jump.

Zenyatta's career is littered with examples of this. It ws no accident she exploded to a 112 in the Classic when there were real horses in front of her.

Here's another example.

I can't vouch for the accuracy of Rail Trip's figures, but I think he got a 98 first out and a 108 yesterday. The 98 may have been accurate, but IMO it was a comical representation of his ability. They crawled in that race. It was almost a 100% certainty he could run faster if given a better pace.

There are also many examples of these synthetic horses making huge jumps when they come east to run on dirt. The races are different and they get better paces. Of course some simply like dirt better also (or hate it) and that accounts for big fluctuations also, but a big part of it is pace.

The faster the pace the faster the final time until you hit a horse's breaking point. Then it goes the other way. The thing is some of these top synthetic horses are running well below their breaking points in many of their races.

IMO whatever figure Zenyatta and St Trinians are assigned (probably somewhere between 100-104), they are both capable of better.I'm curious why you just took all this space to "explain" something I obviously already know...

[Show Me the Wire]

It wasn't a measured win. She was beat with an eighth of a mile to go. She worked as hard as she ever has for a win today. Smith put the whip away with about ten yards left after cracking her at least 12 times in the stretch.

It was a great performance by the mare, it certainly wasn't her doing just enough to win. The win was impressive as she has ever been.

St Trinians was extremely game and Zenyatta earned it big time today.


Zenyatta pinned her ears for approximately 8 strides and pricked them forward right before the wire.

[thaskalos]

Quite the opposite... in fact, that's the only way I see her having even the slightest of chances winning on dirt against Grade 1 open company: a scorched Earth type of early pace scenario.

I hope this silly notion of Zenyatta's age doesn't catch on as some excuse when she finally loses on the dirt against some halfway decent opposition.

I fear that when she does lose in her first Grade 1 open company race on dirt, the excuse will be how old she is and how much she's already run...which is pretty funny considering she's as lightly raced as a horse can be for her stature and age. I fear that, if Zenyatta is beaten, it will be because of Mike Smith's peculiar tendency of drifting to the extreme outside just as the other horses turn for home...thus causing the horse to lose more ground than necessary.

The horse always has good position going into the turn, but as the other horses turn for home, Smith appears to be drifting sideways at the worst possible time causing the horse to turn for home while stuck hopelessly on the extreme outside.

When and if she challenges the best horses in training...she will have to save all the ground she can...

[classhandicapper]

I'm curious why you just took all this space to "explain" something I obviously already know...

Based on your commentary about Zenyatta, the quality of some of the fields and horses she's beaten, etc... it often seems quite the opposite.

I mean you are still talking about how she would do against a legitimate Grade 1 field and I think it's becoming apparent that St Trinians is the 3rd best mare in the country right now (and said so before the race).

Of course it's still not clear how good either is in dirt (especially St T), but that's entirely different issue that has about as much to do with anything as how good Rachel is on turf. Another issue we disagree on.

IMO some of the fields Zenyatta has beaten in CA were solid Grade 1 fields but speed figures failed to capture that quality. That causes many handicappers to not comprehend the quality.

[Rackon]

Based on your commentary about Zenyatta, the quality of some of the fields she's beaten, etc... it often seems quite the opposite.

I mean you are still talking about how she would do against a legitimate Grade 1 field and I think it's quite apparent that St Trinians is the 3rd best mare in the country right now (and said that before the race).

Of course it's still not clear how good either is in dirt (especially St T), but that's entirely different issue that has about as much to do with anything as how good Rachel is on turf.

Some of the fields Zenyatta has beaten were terrific solid Grade 1 fields but speed figures failed to capture their quality and caused many people to not comprehend that quality.

Thank you, Class, for your sane and common sense posts. Probably in vain, but thanks for trying!

[classhandicapper]

Thank you, Class, for your sane and common sense posts. Probably in vain, but thanks for trying!

Thanks.

It's no big deal.

Different opinions are what makes racing so great. It just saddens me that IMO this mare still isn't getting the proper respect because many of her speed figures are slow and she runs on synthetic.

I may have to move to France where they actually get it. :lol: (and if you knew me you would know how funny that is)

Have a nice night everyone.

[PaceAdvantage]

I mean you are still talking about how she would do against a legitimate Grade 1 field and I think it's becoming apparent that St Trinians is the 3rd best mare in the country right now (and said so before the race).No...I was talking about how she would do against a GRADE 1 OPEN COMPANY RACE ON DIRT.

We all know she can beat a legitimate Grade 1 field...she did so in the BC Classic for starters.

And as for St. Trinians, let's not go too overboard here. On paper, she is nothing but a Grade 2 winner in this country. Yes, she beat the former BC Distaff winner in Life Is Sweet, but maybe Life Is Sweet wasn't her former Grade 1 self that day...she was retired after that race, correct?

Over in Europe, she was absolutely nothing special...and coming into the Vanity, her bankroll stood at $268,587 LIFETIME.

And yet, she was bet down to 2-1 against the mighty Zenyatta, who was pretty much life or death to get up and beat her...

It's actually a little sad when you think about it this way....

[SmartyParty]

Man, this girl loves what she does!!!! She is one joy to watch.

I'm glad both, Rachel and she, won their races this weekend.

She had to work her big butt off for this one, but her stride and size got her there. These, and her smarts! Got to be the smartest racehorse I've ever seen. She knows where the wire is. Plus, she knows how much she's got to kick to get by whomever's in front of her.

St.T sure floated her wide on the turn . . . . my Lord. As for Z, I reckon she is blowing some after this one. She had to roll the last few strides. When she got to St.T, there was no comparing the size or the stride of the two though. St.T looked like a juvenile.

Vic's call was great. All excitement included! Its rare that a racecaller has the historic opportunity this man had today. I'm thrilled for him, and I'm sure he's grateful to be a part of such an exciting moment in racing. (Vic, you did a fine job, bud!!!!:ThmbUp: )


Ditto, Grits, to all that you just said!

[PurplePower]

I think you are all suckers......... :lol:

Smith waited just long enough to make it close..........

They have become PT Barnum on the west coast......... :lol:

I just wonder if they will ever get to her bottom, racing in CA......

I want to see her all out for more than a quarter mile.

Don't get me wrong.......I think she is one hell of a mare.......but I think they are toying with the crowd............just to make it close
Ralph, you know I like ya. Tell me your don't REALLY believe that THEY (I presume racing office, trainer, owner, jockeys of ALL runners) get together and decide to 'make it close". :confused:

I trained a horse (that's him in my profile picture) that won like that, closing to win by a length or a nose and I was hoarse after each race and probably lost a few days of living due to the stress on my heart. I can tell you that there was never any intent to "just make it close". :) And, I doubt any of Zen's connections would do that even if it was considered possible.

[OntheRail]

No...I was talking about how she would do against a GRADE 1 OPEN COMPANY RACE ON DIRT.

We all know she can beat a legitimate Grade 1 field...she did so in the BC Classic for starters.

And as for St. Trinians, let's not go too overboard here. On paper, she is nothing but a Grade 2 winner in this country. Yes, she beat the former BC Distaff winner in Life Is Sweet, but maybe Life Is Sweet wasn't her former Grade 1 self that day...she was retired after that race, correct?

Over in Europe, she was absolutely nothing special...and coming into the Vanity, her bankroll stood at $268,587 LIFETIME.

And yet, she was bet down to 2-1 against the mighty Zenyatta, who was pretty much life or death to get up and beat her...

It's actually a little sad when you think about it this way....

Of course she was bet down to 2-1 second choice... on paper she was IT. As in having the best shot at winning. I can only hope the closeness of the race will not keep Moss from that G1 on DIRT be it Open Company or Not.

St Trinians ran a hellofa race today and I hope she and Zenyatta come out of it well.

[v j stauffer]

Did Vic spontaneously combust after the wire?

Hey for me that's holding it together. What a humbling honor to call 7 of her 17 wins. racing can hold it's collective head high tonight.

[jamey1977]

Of course she was bet down to 2-1 second choice... on paper she was IT. As in having the best shot at winning. I can only hope the closeness of the race will not keep Moss from that G1 on DIRT be it Open Company or Not.

St Trinians ran a hellofa race today and I hope she and Zenyatta come out of it well.
Mike Smith is great. Martin Garcia purposely was going wide so Mike can go wide. These jockeys are smart, they will do anything to win. St.Trinians was game and extremely formidable. St.Trinians destroyed Life Is Sweet The Breeders Cup Female Classic Winner. And someone was saying St.Trinians wasn't legitimate? That money is from some of the best horseplayers in the country. These guys make their living betting horses. 2 to 1 Second? With Mike Mitchell red hot. Martin Garcia - red hot. Of course. St. Trinians was most legitimate. These wide trips do worry me and I don't think they really want to go to The Breeders Cup for the boys. But at a mile and a quarter. Zenyatta does better, actually. I don't know. Mike is great, Zenyatta is great. A hell of a stretch run. Zenyatta was also giving 9 pounds. This St. Trinians would have destroyed - Rachel Alexandra, the same way she destroyed - Life Is Sweet. Zenyatta earned this one.

[PaceAdvantage]

This St. Trinians would have destroyed - Rachel Alexandra, the same way she destroyed - Life Is Sweet. Zenyatta earned this one.Funny stuff. Guess you missed my post...I'll repeat it for you...

St. Trinians is a GRADE 2 WINNER in this country...that's it...over in Europe, she was squadoosh...

12 lifetimes starts coming into the Vanity...7 wins...and a whopping $268,587 in lifetime earnings...

Life Is Sweet was RETIRED after that race against St. Trinians...something tells me she might not have been 100% that day...what do you think?

Oh, and St. Trinians top lifetime Beyer coming into the Vanity was 102...she got a 99 when she beat Life Is Sweet...I know, I know...Beyer figs supposedly mean nothing...but it is another fact to consider for some of us.

[ronsmac]

That was impressive...overcoming Mike Smith's crazy, wide-ass ride...
The ride was absolutely flawless. He tracked the horse he needed to beat, and you always stay outside of that horse. Horses almost always run better outside of a horse vs. inside of one. Probably Smith's best ride on Zenyatta since last yr.

[DeanT]

Hey for me that's holding it together. What a humbling honor to call 7 of her 17 wins. racing can hold it's collective head high tonight.
Some friendly advice: Next time try and get a little bit more animated, ok?

:)

Nice job. Glad you had a chance to do 17.

[PurplePower]

Hey for me that's holding it together. What a humbling honor to call 7 of her 17 wins. racing can hold it's collective head high tonight.I loved it Vic. Anyone that didn't share a similar tremble as the one I heard in your voice as she hit the wire in front missed out on an opportunity to experience exultation, appreciation of greatness and the true joy of victory. I'm glad you were on the mike.

[thaskalos]

...I know, I know...Beyer figs supposedly mean nothing...but it is another fact to consider for some of us. The Beyer figures are a FACT? And all this time I thought they were just an "educated" guess...

[JustRalph]

Ralph, you know I like ya. Tell me your don't REALLY believe that THEY (I presume racing office, trainer, owner, jockeys of ALL runners) get together and decide to 'make it close". :confused:

I trained a horse (that's him in my profile picture) that won like that, closing to win by a length or a nose and I was hoarse after each race and probably lost a few days of living due to the stress on my heart. I can tell you that there was never any intent to "just make it close". :) And, I doubt any of Zen's connections would do that even if it was considered possible.

Hey Reid, I am allowed to stir the pot a little huh? I post a head knocker every once in a while just to get a reaction. It's fun. :ThmbUp: I would never think that the racing office etc would get together like that. I think Smith is the one who knows how to make it just close enough. I think he is toying with us.

I also think those who think MSmith doesn't know exactly what he has under him and screaming about the ride are forgetting what he did in the BClassic. Isn't that where he took her inside and then back out to win easy? I think we still haven't seen her best race. I want to see her run for more than the last 1/3rd of a race. I think she can do it. Somebody mentioned Street Sense, I think she is very much like Street Sense in some ways. But she hasn't had to run yet....... I think she is better than what we may ever see.......if they keep this campaign going the way they have the last two years we may never see her all out. I know it's a racing tactic, and her style. I just think she could have run mid pack and made that move and we might have seen her really dust em off. I just want to see her run full on for more than a quarter mile. Then we will know what she really is. This campaign west of the rockies is not going to do that though.

[Stillriledup]

Nobody expected that. Talamo likes to send.

I love Smokin Joe but he's been riding like a clown recently. Send in the clowns, this was a bizarre ride on a ridiculously outclassed horse.

[PaceAdvantage]

The ride was absolutely flawless. He tracked the horse he needed to beat, and you always stay outside of that horse. Horses almost always run better outside of a horse vs. inside of one. Probably Smith's best ride on Zenyatta since last yr.Ok then...

Let's see...he didn't exactly float her out gently...he more or less had Zenyatta moving SIDEWAYS coming out of that turn...

Best ride since last yr.? If that's true, than that's quite sad...

[PaceAdvantage]

The Beyer figures are a FACT? And all this time I thought they were just an "educated" guess...Thin...meet thaskalos' act.

[thaskalos]

And as for St. Trinians, let's not go too overboard here. On paper, she is nothing but a Grade 2 winner in this country. Yes, she beat the former BC Distaff winner in Life Is Sweet, but maybe Life Is Sweet wasn't her former Grade 1 self that day...she was retired after that race, correct?

Over in Europe, she was absolutely nothing special...and coming into the Vanity, her bankroll stood at $268,587 LIFETIME.

And yet, she was bet down to 2-1 against the mighty Zenyatta, who was pretty much life or death to get up and beat her...

It's actually a little sad when you think about it this way.... The above is post #66, posted by you...after you had posted THIS, 64 posts prior:

"That was impressive...overcoming Mike Smith's crazy, wide-ass ride..."

Is it me...or does it seem that you were impressed by Zenyatta for a grand total of a little more than two hours?

And you talk about MY act...

[PaceAdvantage]

The above is post #66, posted by you...after you had posted THIS, 64 posts prior:

"That was impressive...overcoming Mike Smith's crazy, wide-ass ride..."

Is it me...or does it seem that you were impressed by Zenyatta for a grand total of a little more then two hours?

And you talk about MY act...I don't see how the two must be mutually exclusive.

I can be impressed by Zenyatta and how she got the job done AND be critical of those who are painting St Trinians as some sort of major competition despite her rather lacking record.

[Pick6]

Right. What I watched wasn't a duel. Take a look at the past performances of the horses in that race and tell me again that wasn't a duel.

For those horses, with those PPs, not only was that a duel...it was a MEGA DUEL....especially considering Zardana, the only horse in that race with even a hint of early speed, wasn't one of the dueling leaders.
A 12.5k claimer in the 4th went 3/4 in 1:12.22 and won wire to wire for 1 1/16. 1:11.91 is not a fast pace by any means; if anything it is on the slow side considering this supposed to be grade 1 competition. The 2008 Vanity went 1:09 and change.

[Pick6]

Quite the opposite... in fact, that's the only way I see her having even the slightest of chances winning on dirt against Grade 1 open company: a scorched Earth type of early pace scenario.

I hope this silly notion of Zenyatta's age doesn't catch on as some excuse when she finally loses on the dirt against some halfway decent opposition.

I fear that when she does lose in her first Grade 1 open company race on dirt, the excuse will be how old she is and how much she's already run...which is pretty funny considering she's as lightly raced as a horse can be for her stature and age.
..and what did we tell you about misusing that word?

Your pace argument is full of holes; but we won't find out most likely until November.

[PaceAdvantage]

A 12.5k claimer in the 4th went 3/4 in 1:12.22 and won wire to wire for 1 1/16. 1:11.91 is not a fast pace by any means; if anything it is on the slow side considering this supposed to be grade 1 competition. The 2008 Vanity went 1:09 and change.I guess I'm old school. When someone says DUEL, I think two horses going head-to-head on the front end. It doesn't NECESSARILY mean lightning fast time...not sure why there is so much confusion on this...

[Pick6]

Duelling is irrelevant; the fractional time matters.

[PaceAdvantage]

Duelling is irrelevant; the fractional time matters.It's not irrelevant when you consider what it was that I originally responded to...Only on synthetic and turf can a 24, 47.2 (close to 47.3) , 111.4 be considered a duel.Perhaps instead of duel he should have correctly used the term "fast pace."

I don't recall anyone claiming the pace in the Vanity was FAST. But there certainly was a duel.

[thaskalos]

I don't see how the two must be mutually exclusive.

I can be impressed by Zenyatta and how she got the job done AND be critical of those who are painting St Trinians as some sort of major competition despite her rather lacking record. You can be critical of anything you want, but you are sometimes critical without a reason. For instance...what was wrong with my "Beyer" comment which led you to refer to my "act"?

You said that the Beyers were a fact you consider...and I reminded you that the Beyers are not "facts"...they are educated guesses.

Am I wrong?

Even if you interpreted my remark as being smart-alecky...it is nothing compared to some other comments around here...

[PaceAdvantage]

Am I wrong?Yes, you are wrong. They are facts in the realm of speed figures.

Rachel Alexandra ran a 108 Beyer speed figure in her last race. That is a fact.

Am I wrong?

[Pick6]

It's not irrelevant when you consider what it was that I originally responded to...Perhaps instead of duel he should have correctly used the term "fast pace."

I don't recall anyone claiming the pace in the Vanity was FAST. But there certainly was a duel.
And I am saying it is "irrelevant" in the context of running the race, which is the only thing anybody cares about anyway.

[Pick6]

Beyers are not factual; they are subjective based on some facts.

Someone can report on the Beyer number as a statement of fact.

[thaskalos]

Yes, you are wrong. They are facts in the realm of speed figures.

Rachel Alexandra ran a 108 Beyer speed figure in her last race. That is a fact.

Am I wrong? YES...you are wrong! The assigning of the 108 as her figure IS a fact! The 108 itself is not a fact...it's an educated guess.

[Stillriledup]

Beyers are not factual; they are subjective based on some facts.

Someone can report on the Beyer number as a statement of fact.

Beyers might not be 'facts' but they are some very strong opinions.

[PaceAdvantage]

And I am saying it is "irrelevant" in the context of running the race, which is the only thing anybody cares about anyway.I do so apologize. I hadn't realized my posts were holding back a great tidal wave of interesting and thought provoking material on the subject at hand.

[PaceAdvantage]

The assigning of the 108 as her figure IS a fact!And that is all I was referring to...

I see you missed where I qualified my statement with "but it is another fact to consider for some of us." The fact being St Trinians recent ASSIGNED Beyer speed figures.

Are you and Pick6 frustrated trial attorneys by any chance? Because you won't beat me at that game...

[thaskalos]

PA...Cj and I were discussing speed figures yesterday on another thread. We "talked" about the guesswork involved in making the figures...and I asked him to tell me how often he had a differing opinion than the Beyer "clan" on a day to day basis.

Cj told me that the differences occured frequently. Would this conflicting opinion between 2 figure makers exist, if the figures were based on facts?

[thaskalos]

If you got upset over my "Beyer" response...I would hate to see your response to my post in the thread "The handle says it all"...:)

[PaceAdvantage]

Would this conflicting opinion between 2 figure makers exist, if the figures were based on facts?Asked and answered.

[PaceAdvantage]

If you got upset...Trust me...did not get upset in the least. Do not mistake engagement for anger (or as you put it, "upset").

[thaskalos]

Trust me...did not get upset in the least. Do not mistake engagement for anger (or as you put it, "upset"). My sentiments exactly!

If there were no differing opinions...there would be no horse races. :ThmbUp:

[Investorater]

\o/....Congratulations___Zenyatta....\o/ for your [17] consecutive victory while

carrying 129 pounds. What a thrilling finish :cool: by the horse I said wouldn't

surprise winning the Breeders Cup Classic of 2009....Next.....