What about Peppers Pride?

[mjw]

I know everyone is honked up about Zenyatta going for her 17th win, but what about Peppers Pride winning 19 straight? No one has even mentioned her. I know everyone is going to say, "all she as beating was the same New Mexico state bred horses she always does" which is fine. However, I feel Zenyatta is in the same boat.

[tzipi]

There's a whole thread about it here.

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=71559

[mjw]

Thanks Tzipi, I had not see it!

[tzipi]

No problem :ThmbUp:

[thaskalos]

I know everyone is honked up about Zenyatta going for her 17th win, but what about Peppers Pride winning 19 straight? No one has even mentioned her. I know everyone is going to say, "all she as beating was the same New Mexico state bred horses she always does" which is fine. However, I feel Zenyatta is in the same boat.

And just how do you figure that Peppers Pride and Zenyatta are in the same boat? Did Peppers Pride win the BC Classic, or did Zenyatta beat up on a bunch of New Mexico breds?

A 19 race winning streak is a fantastic achievement regardless of circumstances...but to compare Peppers Pride to Zenyatta is laughable...

[mjw]

Well, I figure when your trainer has you read to roll in 19 consecutive races, you deserve some credit. Peppers Pride running against the "same ol' NM statebred" is similar to Zenyatta running against the same horses in California. Is Peppers Pride better than Zenyatta? Not likey. But I'm sure you wouldn't mind being Peppers Pride's owner.

[Rackon]

Well, I figure when your trainer has you read to roll in 19 consecutive races, you deserve some credit. Peppers Pride running against the "same ol' NM statebred" is similar to Zenyatta running against the same horses in California. Is Peppers Pride better than Zenyatta? Not likey. But I'm sure you wouldn't mind being Peppers Pride's owner.

I think any of us owners would love to have a winner of 19 straight ANYTHING. It's huge. All credit to PP and her connections. Plus it was a great story.

But your head is soft if you believe some of the posts on this board about Zenyatta vs her competition. Ain't no similarity IMO except in the most superficial appearances.

[mjw]

I think any of us owners would love to have a winner of 19 straight ANYTHING. It's huge. All credit to PP and her connections. Plus it was a great story.

But your head is soft if you believe some of the posts on this board about Zenyatta vs her competition. Ain't no similarity IMO except in the most superficial appearances.

I agree, completely.

[Foolish Pleasure]

I don't understand how people can be blind to the crap shoot nature of synthetic tracks and the fact that this horse never loses on it.


There is no second best synthetic horse of all time because of the nature of the surface,

this animal repeatedly winning when in any given random synth race 90% of the field has a shot at the top of the stretch is being massively underrated.

just shows how few people actually watch the races.

[tzipi]

I don't understand how people can be blind to the crap shoot nature of synthetic tracks and the fact that this horse never loses on it.


There is no second best synthetic horse of all time because of the nature of the surface,

this animal repeatedly winning when in any given random synth race 90% of the field has a shot at the top of the stretch is being massively underrated.

just shows how few people actually watch the races.

You're right on some things. But there is no second best horse because synthetics is so early in it's life as a surface. Synthetics will have to be around for 15-20+ years before I say who the top 10 are.

[Citation1947]

And just how do you figure that Peppers Pride and Zenyatta are in the same boat? Did Peppers Pride win the BC Classic, or did Zenyatta beat up on a bunch of New Mexico breds?

A 19 race winning streak is a fantastic achievement regardless of circumstances...but to compare Peppers Pride to Zenyatta is laughable...

Regardless, Peppers Pride holds the record whether anyone likes it or not.

[cpitt84]

i wonder if the moss' are going to race zenyatta to peppers record? 20-0 sounds awesome :)

[wisconsin]

I don't understand how people can be blind to the crap shoot nature of synthetic tracks and the fact that this horse never loses on it.


There is no second best synthetic horse of all time because of the nature of the surface,

this animal repeatedly winning when in any given random synth race 90% of the field has a shot at the top of the stretch is being massively underrated.

just shows how few people actually watch the races.

On one hand, you hear that poly is unpredictable, but here's a mare who loves the stuff, or could it be she is good enough to get there despite the inconsistent surface? I'll go with the latter.

[wisconsin]

Regardless, Peppers Pride holds the record whether anyone likes it or not.

Some are quick to dismiss her because she's just a New Mexico bred. It's not her fault, and she faced the best in her class. If it were so easy, there would be many more of these win streaks across the country, but alas, they come along maybe once a decade.

[depalma113]

I don't understand how people can be blind to the crap shoot nature of synthetic tracks and the fact that this horse never loses on it.


There is no second best synthetic horse of all time because of the nature of the surface,

this animal repeatedly winning when in any given random synth race 90% of the field has a shot at the top of the stretch is being massively underrated.

just shows how few people actually watch the races.

Pioneer ofthe Nile won all but one synthetic race.

[SmartyParty]

i wonder if the moss' are going to race zenyatta to peppers record? 20-0 sounds awesome :)

On TVG it sounded like the analysts could see her racing (and winning, of course; she's Zenyatta!) two more times, and then getting the 20th at the BC at Churchill. I'll be there. Oh boy!

[tzipi]

Regardless, Peppers Pride holds the record whether anyone likes it or not.

I agree.

[Tom]

Some are quick to dismiss her because she's just a New Mexico bred. It's not her fault, and she faced the best in her class. If it were so easy, there would be many more of these win streaks across the country, but alas, they come along maybe once a decade.

All that matters is she won19. And 19 is bigger than 17.
Zenny has three more to go.

[affirmedny]

Regardless, Peppers Pride holds the record whether anyone likes it or not.

yes, and if some minor leaguer should hit in 57 straight games, they should wipe DiMaggio from the record books!

[depalma113]

yes, and if some minor leaguer should hit in 57 straight games, they should wipe DiMaggio from the record books!


Minor leaguer? You mean Little Leaguer.

[Citation1947]

yes, and if some minor leaguer should hit in 57 straight games, they should wipe DiMaggio from the record books!


Perhaps then Russell Baze's record shouldn't count since he won most of his races at northern calif tracks. And while we are at it lets forget about Dale Baird's all time win mark since he seldom left West Virginia.

[Sericm]

Peppers Pride 19 wins were quite an accomplishment but let's face facts how many grade ones were included in that total.

Sadahuru Oh hit 868 home runs, how many consider him the best over Barry Bonds?.

Lafitt Pincay won Kentucky Derbys, Belmonts, Santa Anita Handicaps,Breeders cups etc.

How many has Russel Baze won?

It all depends on who your competition was!

[SoCalCircuit]

I was thinking about this for a while today and I think I came up with the best possible analogy. For those who follow college bball I think we can look at any form of organized horseracing, by organized I mean keeping win records, offering purses, etc, as the NCAA. Three Divisions in the NCAA (I, II, III). We could maybe look at these three divisions as different variations among horse racing. Theres the harness races, this is obviously horse racing, but you can't compare it to thoroughbred racing, so maybe this is D-III. Also, there are the other minor circuits in the international industry, and consequently other records, such as Camarero's record of 56. I think most, however, would agree that this isn't comparable to Zenyatta or even Peppers Prides record, so maybe this is D-II. Then within D-I, these are the best thoroughbreds. I imagine Pepper's Pride racing in maybe a poor conference, only playing in-conference games, but virtually unbeatable. Clearly, she should be playing some out of conference games against better teams, but has instead opted to dominate in the smaller, restricted conference. Then you have Zenyatta, clearly playing in a powerhouse conference at SoCal (maybe like the Pac-10). She, however, prefers to play only within the Pac-10, and dominate that. Some may argue fairly that the Pac-10 is weak, especially compared to the ACC (NYRA?) or the Big 10 (Churchill?), but it is a powerconference nonetheless. So you really have the option on how you want to chose the record. Do you want it to be simply an NCAA record (which would likely be a harness horse or that peurto rican horse). A D-I record (which would be Pepper's Pride dominating the restricted competition). A D-I Major Conference record (which would be Zenyatta, as the SoCal circuit clearly cannot be denied as a top-5 circuit in the country). Or maybe you chose to recognize only teams that play in all conferences chasing after the best competition (maybe now you would still view Cigar or Citation as the best).

[cj]

I put Pepper's Pride below Zenyatta. It isn't because of the class level though. It is because her owners were too chicken shit to try even one race against a better level of competition. Why would anyone want a horse like that and never really find out how good they are?

[Grits]

And while we are at it lets forget about Dale Baird's all time win mark since he seldom left West Virginia.

Baird would've entered one blind running on three legs. And that's what's remembered, for the most part, about the guy.

[Stillriledup]

I put Pepper's Pride below Zenyatta. It isn't because of the class level though. It is because her owners were too chicken shit to try even one race against a better level of competition. Why would anyone want a horse like that and never really find out how good they are?

Peppers Pride shouldnt even be mentioned in the same sentence with z. Her owners never ventured out because they knew they would lose the streak if they did.

[PaceAdvantage]

Peppers Pride shouldnt even be mentioned in the same sentence with z.But she is all the time...even on TVG...it's the nature of the beast.

[cj]

Peppers Pride shouldnt even be mentioned in the same sentence with z. Her owners never ventured out because they knew they would lose the streak if they did.

That isn't necessarily true. Since when did "they" (owners, trainers) become all knowing in regards to the ability of their horses? They make mistakes all the time, and Pepper's Pride could certainly run a bit.

[CincyHorseplayer]

I think Pepper's Pride is a great illustration and points out the hypocrisy Zenyatta fans display.And my comment isn't to target them because they have made targets of themselves with lavish claims that don't apply because of this 3rd surface.

PP and all the criticism that people have of the record nearly equally apply to Zenyatta.All geographically stamped.All but 1 race vs spurious competition.Yes New Mexico breds are a lowly bunch but if the same tactics are being applied,to avoid losses by seeking out lesser opposition,then the same criticisms should apply also.

The record itself it what is obscuring the view of all this.People think that is the coat of armor which can stand no apostasy!!

[WJ47]

Pepper's Pride is a great mare, and her owners were content to keep racing her in New Mexico. I remember reading that they said they knew she wasn't in the league of Cigar and Citation, but they enjoyed racing and owning her. Pepper's Pride won over a million dollars racing in New Mexico. Why jinx a good thing? I think her owners realized that she'd be outclassed in other racing circuits and wanted to keep her streak going.

However, I think that Zenyatta's 17 wins are more significant than Pepper's Pride's 19 wins. I do agree that both mares were racing under a very controlled set of conditions to maximize their performances.

[horses4courses]

No doubt about that.
But what does that really count for? Not much......

We all know that if Pepper's Pride were racing in G1/G2 open company for F/M, she would be hitting the eighth pole around the time the horse ahead of her was crossing the finish line.

Pepper's Pride holds the record for most wins, alright.
Big deal......

[CincyHorseplayer]

It's a less watered down version of the same story.