TVG: Not even ONE 'skip' in 10 years.

[Stillriledup]

I know there are countless tvg bashing threads on this site. I'm not here to bash, i'm here to educate.

Have you noticed that since the inception of analysts releasing recommended plays on horizontal wagers, not one host has ever said, "this is a tough pick 4, pick 6, etc, i'm recommending a SKIP" I recommend you skip this sequence, i dont see any value.

I know that recommending to skip races is not in TVG's vocab, but just once, even one time, as a lark, as a 'good will 'gesture, say "i think you should save your money for a later date"

I think that good will like this would go a long way. Every horseplayer knows you must skip plenty of races to even have a shot at breaking even or winning, yet TVG, and their 'experts' never recommend a skip.

Every analyst on every day in every race at every track is giving out plays in relentless fashion with no end in sight.

[Bruddah]

You will probably never hear it. They would immediately receive emails from track management. It would be like telling an audience not to buy an advertisers product. Don't think the on air personality would be employed very long. Just my opinion. :rolleyes:

[Stillriledup]

Yes. I believe the greatest companies in the world deeply care about their customers. When you, as a customer, feel that the company you care about cares about you right back, that can go a long way. Bars cut off patrons from drinking on occasion because they dont want that person to go overboard.

Also, there's no proof that recommending a skip or two might generate MORE money in the long run for TVG. There's no telling how fans would appreciate the honesty from 'experts'.

I'm not saying to skip tons of races, but just one time. ONE TIME say "this is too tough, i can't pick it and i dont want you to lose your money, so i'd recommend to wait for a later race"

[thaskalos]

Yes. I believe the greatest companies in the world deeply care about their customers. When you, as a customer, feel that the company you care about cares about you right back, that can go a long way. Bars cut off patrons from drinking on occasion because they dont want that person to go overboard.

Also, there's no proof that recommending a skip or two might generate MORE money in the long run for TVG. There's no telling how fans would appreciate the honesty from 'experts'.

I'm not saying to skip tons of races, but just one time. ONE TIME say "this is too tough, i can't pick it and i dont want you to lose your money, so i'd recommend to wait for a later race" I didn't intend to post that reply...thats why I deleted it.

To answer your question...these guys don't care about us. If they cared about us...would they continue to recommend pick-3s, and pick-4s for us to bet...even though their track records as handicappers are horrific?

[Stillriledup]

I didn't intend to post that reply...thats why I deleted it.

To answer your question...these guys don't care about us. If they cared about us...would they continue to recommend pick-3s, and pick-4s for us to bet...even though their track records as handicappers are horrific?

I had time to get your reply out of my response, in the nick of time too!

I know they dont care about us, but if they pretended to care, even once, maybe it would open some eyes and people would say "maybe tvg isn't so evil afterall"

[samyn on the green]

They are running a business not a remedial school for handicappers. If you don't have the personal control to pass a race Mr. B certainly aint going to give it too you.

The presenters on TVG are for three reasons:



drum up business for the ADW
provide some entertainment on what would be a boring and mute broadcast
give disgruntled loser horse-players a target for their angst and a divert the mea culpa away from their own impotent handicapping

[Tom]

One of the geniuses on air tonight just said that he would never tell someone to pass up a pick 6. He later said the soup at the shelter Saturday will be chicken noodle. :D

[samyn on the green]

If anything the only logical conclusion to watching TVG is to pass races. After watching their futility over the years it is rather clear that you should pick your spots and only play when you have an edge. Too many races dulls your perception and leaves you class/pace tone deaf.

One of the geniuses on air tonight just said that he would never tell someone to pass up a pick 6. He later said the soup at the shelter Saturday will be chicken noodle. :D

[Marshall Bennett]

Matt Carothers has come close . He has to be the most outspoken at TVG whether you love him or hate him . He's often said he has " no opinion " about a given race , or that this is a really " cheap " group of horses with nothing interesting to handicap , or that this is " a really tough " pick 6 sequence . That's about as close as it gets to coming right out and saying " forget it " .

[lamboguy]

first of all, these guys don't make their own picks. there is no work at all behind the picks. once in awhile they can throw you a bone when are at a track and a trainer tells them that a horse is training well. all their picks are derived the same way most make them here through pace and computer generated plays.

their business plan is to get you interested in the game, have you watch their programming and open up an account with them to bet horses. they have alot of people that have accounts with them they are very low funded or non funded after the initial deposit like myself. i make 1 $50 deposit 10 years ago and i still have $38 left after all the fees that they have taken out through the years. everything about their betting division takes a back seat to almost everyone else. they used to charge to make your bets online, its not that great a site to navigate though, and all they give a player are stupid toasters once you bet about 6 million with them. top that off with the limited amount of tracks that they carry and you can see why they have to keep pushing their stupid pick pick3 pick 4 and pick 6 tickets. its a question of survival.now that the churchill ubet merger is complete, i suspect that they will have their own programming on the internet to their members. both twinspires and ubet who already is the hertz of the adw industry do about 10 times a better job than tvg does with the promotion of their betting services without promoting pick 4 tickets.

tvg has been great for the last decade and has kept what little of this game is left in some type of order. they deserve better than to have met this type of fate of having to scoop low to the ground with their stupid announcers touting rotten betting tickets.

[BombsAway Bob]

Matt Carothers has come close . He has to be the most outspoken at TVG whether you love him or hate him . He's often said he has " no opinion " about a given race , or that this is a really " cheap " group of horses with nothing interesting to handicap , or that this is " a really tough " pick 6 sequence . That's about as close as it gets to coming right out and saying " forget it " .
FYI, Matt was on-air a few weeks ago, doing the late afternoon(et)shift.
They were showing races from Indiana & Presque Isle, & Matt said that he wasn't putting out ANY Multi-leg tickets, since he didn't regularly play those circuits, & it would be a disservice to TVG bettors to make up a
Pick-3 or Pick-4 ticket on the fly without knowing the trainers/ horses/ jockeys involved in them.

[Valuist]

first of all, these guys don't make their own picks. there is no work at all behind the picks. once in awhile they can throw you a bone when are at a track and a trainer tells them that a horse is training well. all their picks are derived the same way most make them here through pace and computer generated plays.



I'm the last guy to be an apologist for TVG but I disagree with your original assertion. While some may not offer the "whys" of why they made their selections, a guy like Carothers usually explains his reasoning. Same with Rich Perloff, who may be their best handicapper.

[Marshall Bennett]

FYI, Matt was on-air a few weeks ago, doing the late afternoon(et)shift.
They were showing races from Indiana & Presque Isle, & Matt said that he wasn't putting out ANY Multi-leg tickets, since he didn't regularly play those circuits, & it would be a disservice to TVG bettors to make up a
Pick-3 or Pick-4 ticket on the fly without knowing the trainers/ horses/ jockeys involved in them.
Bob , my post was more in defense of the guy . I'm saying Matt is much more likely to speak his opinion and toss plays than not . Believe you misinterpreted my post .

[BombsAway Bob]

Bob , my post was more in defense of the guy . I'm saying Matt is much more likely to speak his opinion and toss plays than not . Believe you misinterpreted my post .
Actually, i was just supporting your statement...:D

[Canarsie]

I don't know how anyone can skip a $50 DD play by Todd Schrupp :bang:

[levinmpa]

Not only do they never suggest a Pick 4 sequence is too tough, but they continue to put up the "cave man" tickets on the screen, which is the absolute worst way to play a horizontal wager. Every horse on the ticket is given the same chance to win. No A, B or C horses, with no explanation on how to really put together multiple tickets, like a pro. It's senseless and does nothing to educate the public. Just throw a bunch of numbers on the screen and "send it in". If the "talent" is indeed playing all those tickets out of pocket, their salaries are barely covering what they are losing. It's shameful in my mind, and I continue to be amazed that anyone would actually have a TVG account, considering their on air behavior and the fact that they charge per wager fees.

[Stillriledup]

Not only do they never suggest a Pick 4 sequence is too tough, but they continue to put up the "cave man" tickets on the screen, which is the absolute worst way to play a horizontal wager. Every horse on the ticket is given the same chance to win. No A, B or C horses, with no explanation on how to really put together multiple tickets, like a pro. It's senseless and does nothing to educate the public. Just throw a bunch of numbers on the screen and "send it in". If the "talent" is indeed playing all those tickets out of pocket, their salaries are barely covering what they are losing. It's shameful in my mind, and I continue to be amazed that anyone would actually have a TVG account, considering their on air behavior and the fact that they charge per wager fees.

Great post.

TVG's new motto?

So easy, a caveman can do it.

[thaskalos]

Great post.

TVG's new motto?

So easy, a caveman can do it. Are there fans that really put money on those worthless picks?

I don't think so...I think it's all a gag.

I mean...half the time, The TVG hosts sit around and make fun of their "depleted" accounts...

[Stillriledup]

Are there fans that really put money on these worthless picks?

I don't think so...I think it's all a gag.

I mean...half the time they sit around and make fun of their "depleted" accounts...

I wonder how many people actually go on their website and just hit 'send' and bet the analysts tickets. I have to imagine enough people do it....the lazyman's system.

[Stillriledup]

Correction, TVG DOES skip. They skip showing CD, they skip showing FG, etc.

[johnhannibalsmith]

Speaking with a bit of experience, the in house handicapping role can be awfully testing when it comes to walking that line between being suggestive and dismissive. There are a lot of races that I am forced to comment upon which I wouldn't play with confetti money and there are those that I feel EXTREMELY strongly about.

It's hard to do because people don't listen to what you say in its entirety, but rather in bits and pieces and then hear what they want to hear at times (trust me, I've been accused of saying things that I can't begin to understand the train of logic...) - but -

For those that truly do listen, being able to convey the subtleties of true opinion without being overtly direct is a matter of recognizing the different ways in which I may describe a race in general.

Someone posted about Matt Carrothers and love or hate him, that's probably the best way to handle the scenario. I routinely will preface any given race I don't like by saying something like...

"...if you have a strong feeling about this race, tune me out now if you haven't already, because if I had played a pick four, I probably would have required an "all" button in this leg I'm so hopelessly unsure of my selections here..."

as opposed to:

"...this was probably the one race, or one of the few, on the card that I had an extremely strong feeling about. I've been waiting and waiting and waiting eagerly for this one to run back since finishing fourth with trouble..."

I actually think that opposed to track handicappers, the people at TVG do a fairly decent job of conveying a level of confidence (strong or otherwise) in their selections most of the time. I understand a lot of the complaints about leading bettors astray, but the real priority in some sense is to just engage the bettor in the betting process.

I understand the potential for negative impact on the novice or casual player, but really, I'm just not sure that it is any public handicapper's place to advise against playing a particular race short of knowledge of chicanery. It may well be the handicapper's place to honestly convey to the audience his or her own level of confidence in those selections or the overall analysis.

There are few races that are totally unplayable for everyone. Those that I avoid are often the type that others salivate over. I want to tell those listening to skip the race, but aside from obviously operating in some contravention of my duty as employee, I'm doing the public a disservice by arrogantly suggesting that my methodology reigns supreme.

Instead, I offer my analysis and lay out it pretty clearly if I would pass based upon this analysis, but here are my picks (as required by...). In my humble opinion, It's up to the viewer to put forth the effort to actually listen to the analysis and the context before I engage any scrutiny.

I'm accustomed to having to defend what is said and I'm fine with it, but more often than not, the reality is that someone wants to grab seven words out of seven thousand and ignore the other six thousand, nine hundred and ninety three to create an argument that is non-existent.

I do dig the complaint because it's one of my biggest problems with that job - not really being able to lay it all out sometimes and be brutally forthright. But the more I stewed over it some days, the more I realized that my job was to analyze the race and offer commentary about anything in that realm. It's easy enough to get those same points across if you aren't listening with the mute button on and at the same time, I'm not sure that bluntly telling an audience to change over to Pawn Stars because the next three races suck would yield much in the way of productively changing betting habits.

You can lead a horse to water...

I swear I'm not drunk as I ramble on...

[Relwob Owner]

Correction, TVG DOES skip. They skip showing CD, they skip showing FG, etc.


You and others continue to express surprise that TVG operates like a business. Of course they encourage you to bet certain races and certain types of wagers and it is ridiculous to think an on air handicapper would encourage skipping a race....ever walk into a Walmart and have them say "Dont buy today-no good deals....."

Most businesses say they care about their customers and most businesses try to steer customers to do thing in ways that benefit their own interests. TVG is no different.

As far as them not showing those tracks, there is probably a reason for it, the fault may not lie on TVG and I would say it probably involves money.


Once you realize TVG is a business, I think it allows you to enjoy TVG more.....I am just happy that a horse racing channel even exists at all

[Marshall Bennett]

To add to that ... people keep watching.

[Stillriledup]

To add to that ... people keep watching.


Theres no competition, that's why people watch. There isnt a few other similar type of racing channels to choose from....lucky for TVG they're a monopoly (if you have directv) so you either watch them, or watch lifetime tv instead.

[owlet]

One of my most satisfying thoughts about the sport dying and TVG getting kicked to the curb is that Todd Schrupp will be silenced. Finally and forever.

[duncan04]

Correction, TVG DOES skip. They skip showing CD, they skip showing FG, etc.


Wow nothing like dusting off the dust from a thread that has been buried for 5 months with a gem like this!!! :rolleyes: :bang: :lol:

[Marshall Bennett]

TVG has always seemed to be a forbidden subject with this forum for whatever reasons which I find quite strange. Most here more than likely watch TVG during much of the week. Some have said it's due to the same issues being repeated time and time again. This however is true of much of the political crap you find repeated constantly in off-topic. Little or nothing is mentioned of that.

[Mike_412]

Correction, TVG DOES skip. They skip showing CD, they skip showing FG, etc.

TVG doesn't have the broadcast rights for those tracks. They're on HRTV due to being CDI owned. It's been like that for a couple of years now. TVG will usually shows a stakes race or two on tape delay from time to time.

[JustRalph]

TVG has always seemed to be a forbidden subject with this forum for whatever reasons which I find quite strange. Most here more than likely watch TVG during much of the week. Some have said it's due to the same issues being repeated time and time again. This however is true of much of the political crap you find repeated constantly in off-topic. Little or nothing is mentioned of that.


Don't you think the political arena is much more important than whether or not Todd Schrupp got the late pick 4 at HOL right ? Or that TVG never tells anyone to skip a race?

I am a little more interested in the political part of it. I apologize for being so ignorant.

[OTM Al]

I know there are countless tvg bashing threads on this site. I'm not here to bash, i'm here to educate.

Have you noticed that since the inception of the Pace Advantage site, not one month has ever gone by in which some flamer said, "this topic has been done to death, i'm recommending a SKIP" I recommend you skip this post, i dont see any value.

I know that recommending to skip bashes is not in a PA board flamer's vocab, but just once, even one time, as a lark, as a 'good will 'gesture, say "i think you should save your bashing for a later date"

I think that good will like this would go a long way. Every board member knows you must skip plenty of threads to even have a shot at finding one that doesn't talk about Zenyatta, let alone make any sense, yet TVG bashers, 'experts' in their minds never recommend a skip.

Every flamer on every day in every thread at every opportunity is posting in relentless fashion with no end in sight.

[Tom]

Wasn't that a flame post in itself? :D;)

[OTM Al]

Wasn't that a flame post in itself? :D;)

Hmmmm...technically you are right. See though, the madness never ends!

[mountainman]

You will probably never hear it. They would immediately receive emails from track management. It would be like telling an audience not to buy an advertisers product. Don't think the on air personality would be employed very long. Just my opinion. :rolleyes:

I've recommended many times on air that viewers take a pass on some particular race. Credibility is important to my boss and pays off in the long run.

[ArlJim78]

I don't watch tvg except on rare occasions, and when I do its not to see what plays they are putting up.

but with that said, why should they skip? that is your decision to make. They post those plays for the people who are not skipping the sequence and I've yet to see a pick four where everyone passed.

just because you might want to pass up on an individual race doesn't mean that there isn't some kind of rational pick4 ticket that could be constructed around it.

[PhantomOnTour]

I don't watch tvg except on rare occasions, and when I do its not to see what plays they are putting up.

but with that said, why should they skip? that is your decision to make. They post those plays for the people who are not skipping the sequence and I've yet to see a pick four where everyone passed.

just because you might want to pass up on an individual race doesn't mean that there isn't some kind of rational pick4 ticket that could be constructed around it.
Agree with you for the most part.
This is no revelation, but TVG is a business built on betting, and for their sake hopefully it's done thru them. They make money every time an account holder bets thru them. All businesses promote the use of their product or service, and they're no different.

[mountainman]

For those that truly do listen, being able to convey the subtleties of true opinion without being overtly direct is a matter of recognizing the different ways in which I may describe a race in general.







Subtlety? For me, that's attempting to keep my job while still conveying that I believe a certain horse was held back to build the price, or that someone other than the listed trainer is calling the shots, perhaps on an entrant that's been protection claimed. Or that some rider lacks heart in tight quarters..etc...etc. That's when subtle kicks in. Frankly stating that I'd probably pass a given race is a piece of cake compared to that.
By the way, you sound like a good analyst.

[johnhannibalsmith]

Subtlety? For me, that's attempting to keep my job while still conveying that I believe a certain horse was held back to build the price, or that someone other than the listed trainer is calling the shots, perhaps on an entrant that's been protection claimed. Or that some rider lacks heart in tight quarters..etc...etc. That's when subtle kicks in. Frankly stating that I'd probably pass a given race is a piece of cake compared to that.
....

Well, that's about the best way to put it... except, where you get subtle... I have a very bad habit of evolving into colorful sarcasm in describing those situations so that avid followers can differentiate the two scenarios... :D

[lamboguy]

in today's REMSON, RICH PERLOFF handicapped the race and came up with "buying it" for all his television viewers worldwide. that means he used all 6 runners in the race and constructed a pick 4 ticket. i really wonder how many people followed him in to that pick 4 ticket.

[Valuist]

Matt Carothers has come close . He has to be the most outspoken at TVG whether you love him or hate him . He's often said he has " no opinion " about a given race , or that this is a really " cheap " group of horses with nothing interesting to handicap , or that this is " a really tough " pick 6 sequence . That's about as close as it gets to coming right out and saying " forget it " .

I have heard Carothers say he didn't like specific races. I don't recall him saying to sit out a P4 sequence but I also think I've seen him do a "throw away" P4 (1x2x1x2) with almost no money invested.

[Relwob Owner]

I have heard Carothers say he didn't like specific races. I don't recall him saying to sit out a P4 sequence but I also think I've seen him do a "throw away" P4 (1x2x1x2) with almost no money invested.


Very true........He also lets you know if he would change his checkmark based on the current odds....I know that with his delivery and content, he is polarizing but I really like him.

[Marshall Bennett]

He can add a spark to an otherwise dull day of racing. I don't always agree with him, but he keeps his viewers awake. Every now and then they'll match him and Perloff together, that's about as good as it gets.

[PaceAdvantage]

TVG has always seemed to be a forbidden subject with this forum for whatever reasons which I find quite strange.I don't get the joke...this is a joke, right?

[Pine Tree Lane]

He can add a spark to an otherwise dull day of racing. I don't always agree with him, but he keeps his viewers awake. Every now and then they'll match him and Perloff together, that's about as good as it gets.

I enjoy some of the "TVG Classic" programming of past stakes races to help build my DVD library.

Matt is one of the few I actually listen to because he actually defends his selections, provides insight and admit if he's not in love with a race. Also, his value plays trump those "ICE COLD" QH plays by Les Onaka and the Los Al gang.

1-5 into 2-5 into 1-5 into all. Bet $ 64.00 collect $ 28.00.

I think Dave Brower adds value on the sulkys as well.

[Marshall Bennett]

I enjoy Matt when he's sitting down talking horses. I don't like him when he's dancing around a room, trying to perfom outside of his element.
Whenever the host begin acting like clowns instead of doing what they're paid to do, I change channels. You seldom see such lunacy on HRTV.

[duncan04]

I enjoy Matt when he's sitting down talking horses. I don't like him when he's dancing around a room, trying to perfom outside of his element.
Whenever the host begin acting like clowns instead of doing what they're paid to do, I change channels. You seldom see such lunacy on HRTV.


True you don't but sometimes the hosts on HRTV are so monotone it makes me :sleeping: . :lol:

[Richie]

TVG at least it's there, doesn't anyone remember a time when there was no racing on TV, maybe except for pack at the track for a 1/2 hour on saturdays. Man, I guess I'm a half full glass kind of guy, at least I can watch something, sometimes

[Enigma]

HRTV..Objective..show as many live races as possible.

TVG...Objective..to entertain, with live races outside of CA a secondary item.

I'm fortunate I have both.

[Stillriledup]

Wow nothing like dusting off the dust from a thread that has been buried for 5 months with a gem like this!!! :rolleyes: :bang: :lol:

Thanks Dunc, i knew you would get a kick out of this, so i went ahead and did it! :lol:

[Stillriledup]

I know there are countless tvg bashing threads on this site. I'm not here to bash, i'm here to educate.

Have you noticed that since the inception of the Pace Advantage site, not one month has ever gone by in which some flamer said, "this topic has been done to death, i'm recommending a SKIP" I recommend you skip this post, i dont see any value.

I know that recommending to skip bashes is not in a PA board flamer's vocab, but just once, even one time, as a lark, as a 'good will 'gesture, say "i think you should save your bashing for a later date"

I think that good will like this would go a long way. Every board member knows you must skip plenty of threads to even have a shot at finding one that doesn't talk about Zenyatta, let alone make any sense, yet TVG bashers, 'experts' in their minds never recommend a skip.

Every flamer on every day in every thread at every opportunity is posting in relentless fashion with no end in sight.


Post of the year nominee! I'll remember this one when the PAPOY awards come up in a few weeks! :lol:

[Stillriledup]

I don't watch tvg except on rare occasions, and when I do its not to see what plays they are putting up.

but with that said, why should they skip? that is your decision to make. They post those plays for the people who are not skipping the sequence and I've yet to see a pick four where everyone passed.

just because you might want to pass up on an individual race doesn't mean that there isn't some kind of rational pick4 ticket that could be constructed around it.

Um, because they're portraying themselves as experts and we all know that true experts skip races on occasion?

[duncan04]

HRTV..Objective..show as many live races as possible.

TVG...Objective..to entertain, with live races outside of CA a secondary item.

I'm fortunate I have both.


HRTV also has way too many graphics up. A scroll of results at the top. A box of results on the side and two scrolls of odds at the bottom.

[SandyW]

I don't know how anyone can skip a $50 DD play by Todd Schrupp :bang:

I'm a big ICE COLD & LORD OF THE LAWN fan. :lol: :lol:

[Valuist]

I have heard Caruthers say he didn't like a particular sequence, or he didn't want to put much into a particular Pic 4. Definitely have heard Kurt Hoover and Brad Free say that on HRTV.

[Leparoux]

"Yea this sequence looks tough. Don't bet with us online and go ahead and turn the channel while you're at it."

[Valuist]

Is there anybody who actually makes wagers because a talking head tells them to?

[OCF]

Is there anybody who actually makes wagers because a talking head tells them to?

Thankfully, yes.

[Canarsie]

Is there anybody who actually makes wagers because a talking head tells them to?

Yes more than you think. When I had a conversation with CEO Stephen Burn it was shocking to hear that they keep track of employees tickets. Go to question 10 and look at the answer.


http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=82451&highlight=Conversation+Stephen+Burn

[Stillriledup]

Yes more than you think. When I had a conversation with CEO Stephen Burn it was shocking to hear that they keep track of employees tickets. Go to question 10 and look at the answer.


http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=82451&highlight=Conversation+Stephen+Burn

Heres another "stephen Burn" thread for Stephen Burn fans.

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=74549&highlight=stephen+burn