View Full Version : How is this a record?
I'm not trying to be anti-Zenyatta here, but how is this a record?
From Bloodhorse:
Two-time champion Zenyatta (http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/thoroughbred/zenyatta/2004?source=BHonline) attempts to remain perfect in a modern-day record 17 consecutive races when she faces five opponents in the $250,000 Vanity Handicap (http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/race/USA/HOL/2010/6/13/8/vanity-h) (gr. I) at Hollywood Park June 13.
Pepper's Pride won 18, right? It isn't like all of Z's wins were in G1 stakes, so how exactly was this counted? What races/horses are "countable" and which are not?
Mister Frisky is often listed as the co-record holder and most of his races were against scrubs in Puerto Rico. To me, it should be wins in G1 stakes, nothing else.
johnhannibalsmith
06-11-2010, 12:23 AM
Pepper's Pride won 18, right?
19.
Robert Goren
06-11-2010, 12:28 AM
Grade I have become such a joke that no one outside the breeders care. Case in point Saturday's 4th race at Belmont. One of them will be a grade I winner. If any of them were running Zenyatta, you would be calling them tomato cans. a $250k purse to boot. Shouldn't a grade I be worth at least 500k. If they going to run Maiden race for $80k, you would think a grade I would worth more than a little over 3 times that.
PaceAdvantage
06-11-2010, 12:30 AM
If any of them were running Zenyatta, you would be calling them tomato cans.Not the horse that just beat Rachel, Unrivaled Belle. If she were running against Zenyatta, on dirt, I certainly wouldn't be calling her a tomato can. I'd be calling her a major contender.
G1 is the only thing we really have as a dividing line. Where else do you do it? I don't want to get into the whole G1s suck, because we all know a lot of them do. Hell, races weren't even graded when Citation was running. I'm just wondering why Pepper's Pride is ignored while Mister Frisky counts? Why does Zenyatta's maiden win count? Cigar didn't have any maiden win, but he did have an allowance. Maybe it should be stakes only.
I'd almost be willing to bet there have been claimers with long winning streaks too. I can remember one in Maryland that had all 10 wins in the PPs back in the 80s, but she lost that day.
duncan04
06-11-2010, 12:45 AM
Peppers Pride did it in New Mexico state bred races.
Peppers Pride did it in New Mexico state bred races.
I obviously know that. But everyone says what horses have the records, but there are never any rules. What exactly are the rules?
Of course that is rhetorical. I already know the answer...there are none.
chickenhead
06-11-2010, 01:55 AM
What weight anyone puts to it depends on level, but a winning streak is a winning streak, and the record would be whatever is the longest. Against scrubs or not.
So Camarero, at 56, is the record holder. Obviously Citation, Cigar, and Zenyatta had/have more meaningful streaks, but the record is the record. And the "modern day" record still belongs to Peppers Pride any way you cut it. Even if its really not that impressive when accounting for who she beat....it doesn't have to be to be a hell of a long winning streak.
.
thaskalos
06-11-2010, 03:17 AM
I'm not trying to be anti-Zenyatta here, but how is this a record?
From Bloodhorse:
Pepper's Pride won 18, right? It isn't like all of Z's wins were in G1 stakes, so how exactly was this counted? What races/horses are "countable" and which are not?
Mister Frisky is often listed as the co-record holder and most of his races were against scrubs in Puerto Rico. To me, it should be wins in G1 stakes, nothing else. In the bloodhorse article, they chose to ignore races restricted to state-breds...that's why they call Zentatta's race, potentially "history making".
This is for those with deleted posts in this thread.
I realize threads tend to drift, but we have enough threads debating Rachel vs Zenyatta. I have no idea why Rachel was even mentioned in this thread, it has nothing to do with her. Not only that, one guy tried to derail it like two or three posts in. Try to keep comments at least remotely on topic.
In the bloodhorse article, they chose to ignore races restricted to state-breds...that's why they call Zentatta's race, potentially "history making".
Nowhere does it say that in the article. Potential isn't used, nor is state bred. They are just making it up or assuming it is a modern day record. They don't even say in what geographical area it is a record. They even call it a record attempt, but what is the record?
The whole point is nobody really knows the record. How could they? There are no rules. As with most things in this sport, people just make it up as they go along.
thaskalos
06-11-2010, 03:44 AM
Nowhere does it say that in the article. Potential isn't used, nor is state bred. They are just making it up or assuming it is a modern day record. They don't even say in what geographical area it is a record. They even call it a record attempt, but what is the record?
The whole point is nobody really knows the record. How could they? There are no rules. As with most things in this sport, people just make it up as they go along. Read the article again...end of 5th paragraph...
Ok, I did miss that. But if Puerto Rican races count, she has a long, long, long way to go to be setting any records. By the way, what exactly is "modern day"? I haven't seen that defined in horse racing either
Citation and Cigar didn't have any maiden wins in their streaks, yet this is going to break the mark? Who made that rule? State bred races don't count, but sex restricted races do?
It is a nice accomplishment no doubt. But in my eyes, it isn't a record. It is just being used that way for publicity. I guess that isn't bad, but how do you answer when a novice asks what exactly the record is?
thaskalos
06-11-2010, 04:05 AM
Ok, I did miss that. But if Puerto Rican races count, she has a long, long, long way to go to be setting any records. By the way, what exactly is "modern day"? I haven't seen that defined in horse racing either
Citation and Cigar didn't have any maiden wins in their streaks, yet this is going to break the mark? Who made that rule? State bred races don't count, but sex restricted races do?
It is a nice accomplishment no doubt. But in my eyes, it isn't a record. It is just being used that way for publicity. I guess that isn't bad, but how do you answer when a novice asks what exactly the record is? Cj...our sport is dying. On "Sportscenter", they won't even show our MARQUEE races in their entirety...and they only last 2 minutes! The Belmont Stakes was not in their top 5 stories that night.
Can you blame our sport for trying to use gimmicks to generate some enthusiasm?
DeanT
06-11-2010, 10:09 AM
Cj...our sport is dying. On "Sportscenter", they won't even show our MARQUEE races in their entirety...and they only last 2 minutes! The Belmont Stakes was not in their top 5 stories that night.
Can you blame our sport for trying to use gimmicks to generate some enthusiasm?
Art Wilson's piece relays the restricted angle:
Even now, as Zenyatta attempts to break a tie with Citation, Cigar and Mister Frisky by winning her 17th consecutive unrestricted race, there are those who believe she should be running in the Stephen Foster Handicap against males on Saturday instead.
http://www.sgvtribune.com/sports/ci_15274229
Art Wilson's piece relays the restricted angle:
http://www.sgvtribune.com/sports/ci_15274229
Can Quality Road race in the Vanity? Could any horse enter her maiden win, or her allowance win? Of course not. Most of her wins have been restricted in one form or another.
Also, still no mention of what exactly is "modern times".
Pick6
06-11-2010, 12:25 PM
So if Secretariat won all his races we would throw them out as a winning streak because most of them were against 2- and 3-year-olds?
Let's get serious here. Generally speaking, female horses run against females, 2 year olds run against 2 year olds, 3 year olds run against 3 year olds, etc.
And I am not talking about state bred races that have almost no relevance.
FenceBored
06-11-2010, 12:40 PM
So if Secretariat won all his races we would throw them out as a winning streak because most of them were against 2- and 3-year-olds?
Let's get serious here. Generally speaking, female horses run against females, 2 year olds run against 2 year olds, 3 year olds run against 3 year olds, etc.
And I am not talking about state bred races that have almost no relevance.
So if Jackson Bend had gone on a 17 race win streak starting with his maiden win (start #2) it wouldn't count because of the 3 FL bred stakes wins? What about the Sunshine Millions races (restricted to FL and CA breds), do they count? :confused:
So if Jackson Bend had gone on a 17 race win streak starting with his maiden win (start #2) it wouldn't count because of the 3 FL bred stakes wins? What about the Sunshine Millions races (restricted to FL and CA breds), do they count? :confused:
At least somebody gets it. The accomplishment is great, the record is phony.
Pick6
06-11-2010, 12:51 PM
So if Jackson Bend had gone on a 17 race win streak starting with his maiden win (start #2) it wouldn't count because of the 3 FL bred stakes wins? What about the Sunshine Millions races (restricted to FL and CA breds), do they count? :confused:
So you are saying NM bred races are as "relevant" as FL bred races?
Are you being serious with this?
And do we throw out 2YO and 3YO races? Come on now.
So you are saying NM bred races are as "relevant" as FL bred races?
Are you being serious with this?
And do we throw out 2YO and 3YO races? Come on now.
Of course he isn't, but where is the line? Florida and Kentucky bred races only? How about New York or California? See, there is no line. People just make it up as they go to fit the current agenda.
senortout
06-11-2010, 12:54 PM
G1 is the only thing we really have as a dividing line. Where else do you do it? I don't want to get into the whole G1s suck, because we all know a lot of them do. Hell, races weren't even graded when Citation was running. I'm just wondering why Pepper's Pride is ignored while Mister Frisky counts? Why does Zenyatta's maiden win count? Cigar didn't have any maiden win, but he did have an allowance. Maybe it should be stakes only.
I'd almost be willing to bet there have been claimers with long winning streaks too. I can remember one in Maryland that had all 10 wins in the PPs back in the 80s, but she lost that day.
Don't forget, they do have a review committee which attempts to determine which of the Gr 1 races didn't draw a respectable field that year, and therefore might be downgraded to Gr2, or yikes even Gr3 for the following year. Can't wait to see all the Gr 1's you all say were so easy get downgraded to Gr 3 cause Zenyatta won em!
senortout
Pick6
06-11-2010, 12:55 PM
Countless records are "qualified".
Do we throw out all pre-1947 baseball records because the game did not allow black players?
Don't forget, they do have a review committee which attempts to determine which of the Gr 1 races didn't draw a respectable field that year, and therefore might be downgraded to Gr2, or yikes even Gr3 for the following year. Can't wait to see all the Gr 1's you all say were so easy get downgraded to Gr 3 cause Zenyatta won em!
senortout
It doesn't work like that and you know it. If it did, the Blue Grass would be listed by now.
Again though, this has nothing to do with the streak. I said her G1s should count. It is an impressive streak. Feel free to twist what I am saying though, but at least keep it on topic.
FenceBored
06-11-2010, 01:03 PM
So you are saying NM bred races are as "relevant" as FL bred races?
Are you being serious with this?
And do we throw out 2YO and 3YO races? Come on now.
So you are saying that "some" state bred races should be counted, but not others? What snobbery. Perhaps you could give us your list of "special" states to breed in, so we don't make a mistake and have a mare drop a foal in one of the others. :rolleyes:
thaskalos
06-11-2010, 01:03 PM
Art Wilson's piece relays the restricted angle:
http://www.sgvtribune.com/sports/ci_15274229Wow...do you think Art Wilson might be be talking about us?
senortout
06-11-2010, 01:05 PM
It doesn't work like that and you know it. If it did, the Blue Grass would be listed by now.
Again though, this has nothing to do with the streak. I said her G1s should count. It is an impressive streak. Feel free to twist what I am saying though, but at least keep it on topic.
I agree with your statement about the Blue Grass but would like to know your reasoning. My reasoning would be the race now draws fewer serious Derby contenders because of the surface they run on at Keeneland now. (even though I don't agree with that line of thinking)
I agree with your statement about the Blue Grass but would like to know your reasoning. My reasoning would be the race now draws fewer serious Derby contenders because of the surface they run on at Keeneland now. (even though I don't agree with that line of thinking)
My line of thinking is that Dominican and Monba stink, General Quarters is OK but hardly G1, and probably the same will be said about Stately Victor soon.
Now, back to the topic at hand. You can start another thread about over-graded races.
Countless records are "qualified".
Do we throw out all pre-1947 baseball records because the game did not allow black players?
That qualification is cut and dried. The horse racing one is not.
46zilzal
06-11-2010, 01:15 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Thoroughbred_racehorses
lists the most here
Wow...do you think Art Wilson might be be talking about us?
He might be, but there sure is a lot of opinion trying to be passed off as fact in his article.
Pick6
06-11-2010, 01:19 PM
So you are saying that "some" state bred races should be counted, but not others? What snobbery. Perhaps you could give us your list of "special" states to breed in, so we don't make a mistake and have a mare drop a foal in one of the others. :rolleyes:
Answer a question with another question. Ok.
First, you never answered my question about 2YO and 3YO races.
Second, you never addressed if NM bred races are as relevant as FL bred races.
Third, I already indicated that countless "records" are qualified.
I will answer your question.
Records are assigned given the context of the competition. It is very easy to define a record, i.e. "most wins by a left hander in the 20th century during a single season." It is up to the consumer (read: fan) if such a "record" has any meaning to it.
UCLA holds the NCAA div 1 basketball consecutive win record record at 88. If UConn wins more than 88, will UConn be the new record holder? Well, based on the qualification I established above, they would be the new record holder. However, the media (and UCLA fans) will simply "re-qualify" the record to MENS basketball.
So anybody can construct any record they want. If I want to exclude NM, HI, MS, bred races, if I want to exclude races at some backyard track in Louisiana, if I want to exclude races run in Latvia, etc, I can do it. It is up to the reader to decide if such a record has any merit. If you don't think it has merit, then you don't. That does not change the record.
So anybody can construct any record they want. If I want to exclude NM, HI, MS, bred races, if I want to exclude races at some backyard track in Louisiana, if I want to exclude races run in Latvia, etc, I can do it. It is up to the reader to decide if such a record has any merit. If you don't think it has merit, then you don't. That does not change the record.
This is true. Now we are getting somewhere. The only problem is a lot of writers don't even tell you what races count and which don't. This guy made at least a small attempt, but again, if Mister Frisky counts, she isn't anywhere close to the record.
gillenr
06-11-2010, 02:50 PM
The best streak in my lifetime was Personal Ensign's 13.
Any t'bred making it to the finish line first multiple times in a row has done something worth noting.
No one has mentioned the great Ribot, whose 16 included 2 Arcs & a big Brit race.
Mr. Frisky started in PR, but won the SA derby & lost his 17th by finishing mid-pack in the KY derby.
Silent Witness only raced on turf (17) & I think foreign horses couldn't compete.
IMNSHO, neither Pepper's Pride nor Hallowed Dreams could have beaten any of these or Citation or Cigar.
46zilzal
06-11-2010, 03:05 PM
there are others
http://formguide.cyberhorse.com.au/index.php/2005050920441/International/Attraction-Challenges-Silent-Witness-18-race-Winning-Streak.html?option=com_content&catid=14&id=20441&lang=en&view=article&fontstyle=f-smaller
My vote - Bloodhorse is just wrong Sloppy reporting.
Even TVG got it right......19 is the target.
McSock
06-11-2010, 03:39 PM
I am kind of understanding CJ's point, winning a race is not always equal to winning a different race, not all races are equal. The sad part not all grade 1s are even equal.
From day 1 I have had problems with Pepper's Pride win streak and even been mentioned in the same sentence as some of the greats.
Zen's win streak would out shin Pepper's Pride's by a LONG way. I am a Zen supporter, I do feel she is as good as we have right now. I cant compare her to the past greats.
kenwoodall2
06-11-2010, 03:44 PM
I'm not trying to be anti-Zenyatta here, but how is this a record?
From Bloodhorse:
Pepper's Pride won 18, right? It isn't like all of Z's wins were in G1 stakes, so how exactly was this counted? What races/horses are "countable" and which are not?
Mister Frisky is often listed as the co-record holder and most of his races were against scrubs in Puerto Rico. To me, it should be wins in G1 stakes, nothing else.
The writer can qualify records any way they want, jus tas you did by wanting to count only Grade 1 wins!
I'll bet Zen's record for wins and Zippy Chippy's record for losses are records for horses whose names start with Z!
Robert Goren
06-11-2010, 03:48 PM
So how many races did Mister Frisky win?
chickenhead
06-11-2010, 03:59 PM
So how many races did Mister Frisky win?
www.google.com
Robert Goren
06-11-2010, 04:05 PM
I got the number from google as 16. There must be another number out there or someone would not have said Zenyatta wasn't even close. If there is another number, what is it?
chickenhead
06-11-2010, 04:08 PM
posts #9 and 31. This thread.
I got the number from google as 16. There must be another number out there or someone would not have said Zenyatta wasn't even close. If there is another number, what is it?
Most of Mister Frisky's wins came in Puerto Rico. Another Puerto Rican horse, Camarero, won 56 in a row there. All the people that mention 'the record' mention Mister Frisky, but not Camarero. Try this Wiki page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camarero).
Robert Goren
06-11-2010, 04:20 PM
Most of Mister Frisky's wins came in Puerto Rico. Another Puerto Rican horse, Camarero, won 56 in a row there. All the people that mention 'the record' mention Mister Frisky, but not Camarero. Try this Wiki page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camarero).I see your point now.
Skanoochies
06-11-2010, 07:51 PM
So if Zeyatta were to possibly win four more straighr races this year, even in California, would this not be considered a record because it`s in her back yard, and on the phony stuff? :confused:
Hanover1
06-11-2010, 08:03 PM
Cj...our sport is dying. On "Sportscenter", they won't even show our MARQUEE races in their entirety...and they only last 2 minutes! The Belmont Stakes was not in their top 5 stories that night.
Can you blame our sport for trying to use gimmicks to generate some enthusiasm?
Talk about a dying sport-Harness great Cam Fella rattled off 28 straight at the highest level of the game, spanning 2 years of victory, earning well over 3 million, and not one call either on this thread, or elsewhere. I guess since the were not "graded" but stake victories nonetheless, it means nothing? Dead/dying sport.
thaskalos
06-11-2010, 08:37 PM
Talk about a dying sport-Harness great Cam Fella rattled off 28 straight at the highest level of the game, spanning 2 years of victory, earning well over 3 million, and not one call either on this thread, or elsewhere. I guess since the were not "graded" but stake victories nonetheless, it means nothing? Dead/dying sport. Hanover1, I agree. My point was that, since the mainstream sports media virtually ignores horse racing completely...our sport resorts to using "gimmicks" like these "illegitimate" records to spark a little badly needed interest.
Is it right...or even honest?
Probably not...but I won't lose any sleep over it. There are bigger issues in our game to worry about...
Hanover1
06-11-2010, 09:11 PM
Hanover1, I agree. My point was that, since the mainstream sports media virtually ignores horse racing completely...our sport resorts to using "gimmicks" like these "illegitimate" records to spark a little badly needed interest.
Is it right...or even honest?
Probably not...but I won't lose any sleep over it. There are bigger issues in our game to worry about...
I have always treated the media like stockbrokers. Talk a sharp line, play with the facts, and smile alot.......they love it.
cuzimahustler
06-11-2010, 09:28 PM
How many horse's have won the same stakes race 3 years in a row?? That might be another record?
How many horse's have won the same stakes race 3 years in a row?? That might be another record?
Not even close. I'm sure there are others, but Kelso won the very prestigious Jockey Club Gold Cup five times in succession.
saratoga guy
06-11-2010, 11:00 PM
This topic came up -- coming from perhaps another direction -- when Pepper's Pride went past Citation, Cigar, Mister Frisky and Hallowed Dreams. People asked if her record was worthy...
My take -- the -est records, biggest, longest, most etc -- are often just what they are. Accomplishments in and of themselves -- but not necessarily a barometer of the talent of the achiever in the overall pantheon of the sport they took place in.
They are records -- and deserving of appropriate attention, but they need to be judged on their own merits.
The fact is, many of these kinds of records, in many sports, can be parsed down to meaninglessness if given too much scrutiny.
And while I think it's fine to make a distinction to what Cigar and Citation did vs Pepper's Pride, it seems to be an unfortunate fact that the media is kind of clueless as to how to make that distinction in a neatly understandable manner. They struggled with it when Zenyatta tied Cigar and Citation with her win in the Apple Blossom.
And I think it's because they continue to struggle with it that we're not seeing the hype this weekend's race deserves. The fact is -- Pepper's Pride is out there with a 19-0 record, and so, how to hype this attempt at 17-0?
I think it's fair to distinguish by saying "raced at the highest level (in the US)". That seems a fair way to separate the likes of Cigar, Citation and Zenyatta from Mister Frisky, Hallowed Dreams and Pepper's Pride.
What does "raced at the highest level" mean -- well, I don't know if there's a strict definition, but it's certainly one of those "we know it when we see it" things.
And yes, Zenyatta raced in female-restricted races. And Citation raced in age-restricted races (and don't forget, his Derby was a field of six, his Preakness had four), and Cigar had a couple of allowance races early in his streak (restricted to winners of 2x and 4x). So again, if we start really parsing these down, a simple "Most" list can become kind of meaningless...
Stillriledup
06-11-2010, 11:04 PM
Peppers Pride is the Russell Baze of horses. Doing great things against minor league competition.
Its like Dimaggio against Wittels.
gillenr
06-11-2010, 11:13 PM
So how many races did Mister Frisky win?
At least 16 & was a moderately good sire.
DeanT
06-12-2010, 01:44 PM
Wow...do you think Art Wilson might be be talking about us?
Another article about the 'food fights'.
http://www.thatsamorestable.net/blog/?p=337
Another article about the 'food fights'.
http://www.thatsamorestable.net/blog/?p=337
There really isn't much financial upside to retiring fillies and mares if they can still win on the track. The article is written like they are colts.
DeanT
06-12-2010, 02:03 PM
True but there is some risk and financial loss. IN Z's case she would be 8 when her first foal hits the ground. Age versus chances of being barren are heavily negatived sloped, and people pay more for first foals out of younger mares. I think they saw she was fit as a fiddle so breeding took a back seat. In Rachel's case we have a75+ year old owner who would keep the foal anyway. It seems to me (imo) we are still pretty lucky to see both of them race in the present biz environment.
kenwoodall2
06-12-2010, 03:26 PM
Hanover1, I agree. My point was that, since the mainstream sports media virtually ignores horse racing completely...our sport resorts to using "gimmicks" like these "illegitimate" records to spark a little badly needed interest.
Is it right...or even honest?
Probably not...but I won't lose any sleep over it. There are bigger issues in our game to worry about...
Bigger issues in sports. baseball- Mantle was the home run king- for switch hitters, and mound heights have changed; In football the passing record holder did not exist until the gimmick "forward pass" became legal. Hambleton1 had a running start; basketball mixes field goals and free throws for scoring records; Car racing drivers fix races by allowing a driver or team to lead laps for records. etc. etc.
JMHO, racing needs all the gimmicks it can find!
classhandicapper
06-12-2010, 08:26 PM
I think there's some level of subjective judgement involved.
All of Zenyatta's races weren't Grade 1 affairs, but most were either Grade 1 or part of the series of races for fillies in CA where she ran in what was considered the best available race for fillies at that time in the West.
The whole record is kind of silly, but it's still an incredible accomplishment for any horse to both retain form for that long and overcome various bad trips and pace disadvantages and still win. IMO it speaks to the superiority of the horse over and above margins and figures.
Look, the fact that Peppers Pride's Trainer as well as Zenyatta's Trainer have had both ready to roll in 19 and 16 consecutive races is a feat in and of itself. Saying one races has more merit than another is hard because like it has been discussed, some of the fields in these Graded races have been very lackluster. Yes, Peppers Pride ran against the same ol' horses, but much can be said about Zenyatta doing the same thing in California. Would I have liked to have been the owner of either Peppers Pride or Zenyatta, you bet your pants I would.
I think the forest is getting lost through the trees.
It starts out as most consecutive wins, and leads to people drilling down... to most consecutive wins by a female/male, on dirt/poly/turf, that ran on days where the weather was sunny, non-retricted, non-maiden, they had blinkers off, no medication, carrying a certain weight, etc, etc...
When you win a race, you win a race.
PaceAdvantage
06-14-2010, 03:37 AM
When you win a race, you win a race.Except when your name is Rachel Alexandra and that race is the Grade 1 Woodward against Grade 1 males.
Sorry...I couldn't help myself... :lol:
Seabiscuit@AR
06-14-2010, 05:21 AM
Zenyatta's winning streak has been achieved on 4 different surfaces (cushion, polytrack, proride and dirt). Most horses with big winning streaks would have done it on only 1 surface, perhaps 2 surfaces
This more than makes up for any arguments that most of her wins are in one state
PaceAdvantage
06-14-2010, 05:30 AM
Zenyatta's winning streak has been achieved on 4 different surfaces (cushion, polytrack, proride and dirt).If you're going to start dividing synthetic surfaces by their brand names, then this is simply further proof that they should be considered nothing more than a silly sideshow.
Are grass courses uniform throughout the US? Uniform height...uniform soil composition, identical type of grass? Of course not.
Same with dirt tracks. No two dirt tracks are exactly the same.
Don't further cheapen an already cheap 3rd surface like that...
PhantomOnTour
06-14-2010, 09:11 AM
I agree with the original poster/thread starter. 17 wins isn't a record...you can call it a 'major league racing' record, but Peppers Pride (like it or not) has the American record of 19.
Cat Thief
06-14-2010, 11:20 AM
I don't think it matters whether it is grade 1 or not. A race is a race. some races have over 10 horses in them so that is alot to beat Peppers Pride remainsthe champion until Zen breaks her record,which I am sure she will do.
Steve 'StatMan'
06-14-2010, 12:59 PM
Heck with it. She beat Citation's personal record of 16 in a row.
So we can legitimately debate her merits vs Citation's. Not that I'm asking or wanting to do that here. She'd in that league now. Pepper's Pride, Mister Frisky & Camarero were great at what they did. But they did their things at different competition levels.
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