Zenyatta staying in SoCal after Vanity...clowns.

[cj]

INGLEWOOD, Calif. - Zenyatta's appearance in the $250,000 Vanity Handicap at Hollywood Park on Sunday is likely to be the first of two races for the popular 6-year-old mare in Southern California this summer.

Wednesday, trainer John Shirreffs said the $300,000 Clement Hirsch Stakes at Del Mar on Aug. 7, a race that Zenyatta won in 2008 and 2009, will be a late summer goal. Races on the East Coast had entered the discussions, but Shirreffs and owners Jerry and Ann Moss intend to leave her in Southern California for now.



The rest here...

http://www.drf.com/news/article/113743.html

[andymays]

Why did they bring her back to do this? What's the point?

They must be trying for runner up HOY again. :rolleyes:

[Space Monkey]

The point is to just run and win. The doors open for anybody from anywhere to come to race against her. She's the queen and she's EARNED,EARNED,EARNED the right to run where she wants to. Saying that, I wish she would come east.

[slew101]

They could change their plans. If they don't, they should be embarrassed. Run the horse at Saratoga. It would be great for racing and the fans in the east who will only get one chance to see her run.

[andymays]

The rumors have been that she isn't training all that sharp. Maybe they don't plan to finish out the year. We'll know after the Vanity.

[Pick6]

If their goal is HOY, they are taking the absolute correct path. No 3YO has a chance, QR is taking his sweet time with a very light campaign, and RA is not even up to speed yet in June, and by any reasonable estimate will not even contest the big race at CD.

An undefeated campaign including win in BCC will give Z 95%+ chance of HOY.

[johnhannibalsmith]

This can't be right. Some enlightened individual here promised me that she was going to run at either Saratoga, Monmouth, or Delaware. He knew. Bank on it. She'll be there. He knew.

[Robert Goren]

No one stopping anyone from going to California to take her on. They keep running in races for east coast tomato cans.

[rgustafson]

The rumors have been that she isn't training all that sharp. Maybe they don't plan to finish out the year. We'll know after the Vanity.

Sometimes an older mare just doesn't have the desire any longer. Not necessarily a physical problem. Remember one of the greatest ever, Lady's Secret. As a four year old, she raced 15 times winning 10 with 3 places and 2 shows. Seven of those wins were in Grade I races culminating with a win in the Breeders Cup Distaff. Lukas brought her back as a five year old in the Donn and she was beaten 32 lenghts. She won a couple of allowance races at Monmouth and ran second in the Molly Pitcher and then in what turned out to be the last start of her career at Saratoga, she bolted and did not finish. Moss would never go that route, if she shows any kind of a poor race, I think they would call it a career.

[Pick6]

Sometimes an older mare just doesn't have the desire any longer. Not necessarily a physical problem. Remember one of the greatest ever, Lady's Secret. As a four year old, she raced 15 times winning 10 with 3 places and 2 shows. Seven of those wins were in Grade I races culminating with a win in the Breeders Cup Distaff. Lukas brought her back as a five year old in the Donn and she was beaten 32 lenghts. She won a couple of allowance races at Monmouth and ran second in the Molly Pitcher and then in what turned out to be the last start of her career at Saratoga, she bolted and did not finish. Moss would never go that route, if she shows any kind of a poor race, I think they would call it a career.
Then I remember Typecast and Susan's Girl.

[cj]

No one stopping anyone from going to California to take her on. They keep running in races for east coast tomato cans.

Nobody wants to run on the rubber...and they know it.

[BluegrassProf]

After all the excitement about the connections expanding Zenyatta's horizons, taking the racing world to task, and stamping her place in the lexicon of racing history, this sort of neutralizing...
No one stopping anyone from going to California to take her on. ...is the best we can expect? Really?

:faint:

It's insulting. When it comes to claims of historic greatness, the burden of proof rests squarely the athlete and his/her connections, not every on everyone else - that's the point. Were the latter the case, this'd be a sorry excuse for a sport indeed (as would every other competition on the planet).

It doesn't matter what you think re: Zenyatta's place in history - Rachel luvers and Zenyattites labels are irrelevant - this course of action is absolutely disappointing.

[Hanover1]

Nothing new here.....

[cj]

I find it funny the superhorse apparently needs a rabbit as well for the Vanity.

[WinterTriangle]

Nobody wants to run on the rubber...and they know it.

And the excuse those "nobodies" had for not coming to Oaklawn when Zenyatta was there on dirt was............................what?

[thaskalos]

And the excuse those "nobodies" had for not coming to Oaklawn when Zenyatta was there on dirt was............................what? I will answer that...the excuse was that the race was planned "too hastily" and it was too early in the year to get the top horses interested.

As if the $5M purse was not enough of an incentive...

Of course the purse was reduced substantially after a certain horse's defection...(whose name should not be mentioned because this thread has nothing to do with her)...

[FenceBored]

And the excuse those "nobodies" had for not coming to Oaklawn when Zenyatta was there on dirt was............................what?

I refer you to the opening post of that old time thread
Who else might be in the Apple Blossom? (http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=67026) from the time right after the announcement of the $5 million deal.

[andymays]

I think this is where the Tomato Can/Boxing thing might come in. Is Zenyatta the Primo Carnera of Horse Racing? I don't think so but I thought CJ would enjoy this. :)


http://www.biographybase.com/biography/Carnera_Primo.html

Excerpt:

Carnera's manager, a gangster named Owney Madden, stole much of Carnera's money and left him almost broke. Because of Madden's connection to the underworld, it has always been speculated across the boxing world that most of Carnera's fights were fixed. The book East Side, West Side: Tales of New York Sporting Life 1910-1960 took the rumors a step further, stating that Most of the Italian giant's opponents were pushovers, paid to take a dive or too frightened to stand up for three minutes in a row . Jack Sharkey himself had to deny rumors about him taking a dive in his world championship fight with Carnera. swearing that he didn't.

[Seabiscuit@AR]

There is nothing wrong with Zenyatta staying in Cal as this is where the strongest horses reside in general. But she should be racing in the Hollywood Gold Cup and Pacific Classic this year

[slew101]

If RA rolls on Saturday, and targets the Aug. 29 race at Saratoga, I think Zenyatta's crew will consider changing their plans.

Regardless, I want one of those Zenyatta bobbleheads!

[bisket]

This can't be right. Some enlightened individual here promised me that she was going to run at either Saratoga, Monmouth, or Delaware. He knew. Bank on it. She'll be there. He knew.
i say we tar and feather him

[WinterTriangle]

I will answer that...the excuse was that the race was planned "too hastily" and it was too early in the year to get the top horses interested.

As if the $5M purse was not enough of an incentive...

I didn't mean Rachel. I meant all the trainers that cj meant when he said "nobody" will ship to run on plastic. Apparently, they didn't wanna ship to run on dirt, either.

FWIW, I fully supported Rachel NOT running in that race as she was not ready.



At any rate, when Moss ships anything, the anti-Moss/Sheriffs/Zen folks complain he's "unfair".

Remember what happened when he *dared* ship East with Zardana?

He was villified for running a 2nd stringer against Rachel when she wasn't at her "best".

Even though, it seems that since trainers are supposed to enter horses where they can WIN, right?

So, it would have been more accepetable for Jackson and Assmussen to WITHDRAW Rachel from that race at that point, right? I mean, if she wasn't 100%, or even 90%----------

instead......everyone else is expected to pass the race to give her a win?????

Name one other horse that anyone would think that was an acceptable scenario for. :bang:

Trainers all over the US: "Oh, we're not gonna send a horse we think can beat an HOY..........'cause we really don't want anyone to think we're competitive, because, like, ya know, then they might think we're mean or something, trying to actually WIN a race for our owners. "

I supported Rachel not running in the apple blossum, but I also supported her NOT running in the race with Zardana, purely because her trainers said she wasn't 100%.



.
They can't do anything right as far as those who don't like the Mosses, Sheriff's or Zenyatta. I think that has become abundantly clear. :D

[Grits]

There is nothing wrong with Zenyatta staying in Cal as this is where the strongest horses reside in general. But she should be racing in the Hollywood Gold Cup and Pacific Classic this year

And in general, you're real mistaken.:lol:

[thaskalos]

It is obvious that Zenyatta cannot escape criticism unless she faces the top males...on dirt. The question is...SHOULD SHE?

Isn't it enough to be declared the best FEMALE horse in training...if not in recent memory?

I say...ship her out of California, and keep her against her own sex. Let's see how many dare to go up against her.

If this year's Oaklawn race is any indication...not many!

[Dahoss9698]

I find it funny the superhorse apparently needs a rabbit as well for the Vanity.

It is pretty funny. Team Zenyatta wouldn't let Zardana run at Oaklawn, but now that she'll be a rabbit, they are okay with it.

I hope Zetcher is getting a nice kickback, because this is as shady as it gets. Only the dumbest of dumb can still blindly defend these actions.

[thaskalos]

I find it funny the superhorse apparently needs a rabbit as well for the Vanity. If you were Zardana's owner, would you agree to run her as a "rabbit"?

Couldn't it be that Zenyatta is not 100%, and that Zardana is a legitimate threat to win?

[letswastemoney]

They're going to send Zardana to the lead...

Zenyatta's chances to win just increased significantly.

[letswastemoney]

If you were Zardana's owner, would you agree to run her as a "rabbit"?

Couldn't it be that Zenyatta is not 100%, and that Zardana is a legitimate threat to win?
Zardana has trouble beating allowance horses on synthetic. However badly she ran at Churchill last time, her overall dirt form is better.

[andymays]

They're going to send Zardana to the lead...

Zenyatta's chances to win just increased significantly.


That helps St Trinians as well.

I heard Martin Garcia said to Mike Smith "I'm your Huckleberry"! He said it in spanish though. Anyone got a translation? Babelfish?

[thaskalos]

That helps St Trinians as well.

I heard Martin Garcia said to Mike Smith "I'm your Huckleberry"! He said it in spanish though. Anyone got a translation? Babelfish? I am fluent in Spanish...what exactly did he say?

[Pick6]

Z had her worst effort with a fast pace.

St T prefers a faster front end, so any honest pace will most likely favor her not Z.

With reasonable odds St T is a play here.

[Tom]

Some all time greats have used rabbits.
This choice might have been forced on them because someone bought up all the tomatoes and the shelves were bare! :D

Until this weekend, we are watching one horse looking for ways to keep on winning while we watch another look for ways to start.

Nothing new here. Move along.

[Dahoss9698]

Some all time greats have used rabbits.
This choice might have been forced on them because someone bought up all the tomatoes and the shelves were bare! :D

Until this weekend, we are watching one horse looking for ways to keep on winning while we watch another look for ways to start.

Nothing new here. Move along.

Ummm...haven't RA and Zenyatta made the same amount of starts this year? Seems like both are looking for ways to start.

[Pick6]

start...winning (this year)

[Dahoss9698]

Z had her worst effort with a fast pace.

St T prefers a faster front end, so any honest pace will most likely favor her not Z.



How does an honest pace not favor a deep closer?

[Tom]

Thank you!

[Dahoss9698]

start...winning (this year)

Stop.....hiding (for the last 3 years)

[Pick6]

How does an honest pace not favor a deep closer?
I already explained it.

[Dahoss9698]

Thank you!

You're a pretty outspoken guy. How do you feel about Zenyatta hiding out for another year in California?

[Dahoss9698]

I already explained it.

No you didn't. You said Zenyatta's worst effort came with a fast pace (an opinion and a bad one at that). Then you said St Trinians prefers a fast pace so that doesn't work in Zenyatta's favor (another really bad opinion).

It makes no logical sense. Isn't the point of a rabbit to help out a deep closer, by providing them with pace?

[Pick6]

Stop.....hiding (for the last 3 years)
Of course she has been hiding for 3 years. That's why we did not have the so-called matchup of the century. Thanks for the explanation.

[Pick6]

No you didn't. You said Zenyatta's worst effort came with a fast pace (an opinion and a bad one at that) [lol]. Then you said St Trinians prefers a fast pace so that doesn't work in Zenyatta's favor (another really bad opinion).

It makes no logical sense. Isn't the point of a rabbit to help out a deep closer, by providing them with pace?
If you can't make sense of it, then I don't need to explain it any more than I already did.

It is a perfectly logical explanation and leads to St T being a play with reasonable odds this week.

I'm sorry you can't see it.

[Dahoss9698]

If you can't make sense of it, then I don't need to explain it to any more than I already did.

It is a perfectly logical explanation and leads to St T being a play with reasonable odds this week.

I'm sorry you can't see it.

So you can't explain it, because even you realize how idiotic it is. Gotcha.

[horses4courses]

If you can't make sense of it, then I don't need to explain it any more than I already did.

It is a perfectly logical explanation and leads to St T being a play with reasonable odds this week.

I'm sorry you can't see it.

Those odds will have to be pretty damn reasonable to play against Z.
If you don't like the short odds on the favorite, passing the race might be more advisable.
You would have dug yourself a pretty deep 0-16 hole by now, if that's your angle.

[Tom]

You're a pretty outspoken guy. How do you feel about Zenyatta hiding out for another year in California?

Everyone knows where she lives. No one shows up.
She went to OP, on dirt, and guess who didn't show up.
How do you feel about RA not only ducking, but backing out?

[Dahoss9698]

Everyone knows where she lives. No one shows up.
She went to OP, on dirt, and guess who didn't show up.
How do you feel about RA not only ducking, but backing out?

Typical deflection.

Nothing new here. Move along.

[Tom]

I answered your question. Did you forget how to read?
You just have no answer to mine, so YOU try deflection. Typical of you. You never could engage in honest discussion. Human version of a tomato can. :sleeping:

[thaskalos]

I answered your question. Did you forget how to read?
You just have no answer to mine, so YOU try deflection. Typical of you. You never could engage in honest discussion. Human version of a tomato can. :sleeping: Hard to argue with logic...:ThmbUp:

[BluegrassProf]

Everyone knows where she lives. No one shows up.Again:
After all the excitement about the connections expanding Zenyatta's horizons, taking the racing world to task, and stamping her place in the lexicon of racing history, this sort of neutralizing...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Goren
No one stopping anyone from going to California to take her on.

...is the best we can expect? Really?

It's insulting. When it comes to claims of historic greatness, the burden of proof rests squarely the athlete and his/her connections, not every on everyone else - that's the point. Were the latter the case, this'd be a sorry excuse for a sport indeed (as would every other competition on the planet).

It doesn't matter what you think re: Zenyatta's place in history - Rachel luvers and Zenyattites labels are irrelevant - this course of action is absolutely disappointing.If we're so concerned with legacy and place in history, we absolutely need to look past our noses.

"Well, she stayed in California and no one came to her, she was a legend!"

Do you honestly expect history to look kindly on such a notion? All these other horses stayed away, so she's the best ever?

That's absurd. We we all - all - promised something greater. I, for one, will demand it until she hits the shed...I'd love to see a bout with history, as any sensible horseman would. But it needs to be earned. We want what we were promised, simple as that.

But hey, that's just me.

[Dahoss9698]

No you didn't. You skated around it. In case you didn't know this, no one ships in to run in California. Why would they? I thought it was pretty obvious why RA skipped the Apple Blossom.

I refuse to believe a person that spends 90% of their time on a horse racing themed message board is this out of touch with the racing. Pretty typical though. You never have been able to honestly discuss something without falling back on your extreme biases. Talk about a tired act. :sleeping:

[horses4courses]

Pretty simple, really.

Zenyatta's goal is to win the BC Classic at CD, and become HOY.

Prepping for that target shouldn't have to include seeking out every hot horse
within the 50 states, and beating them on the "sacred" dirt surface.

Keep the mare sound, and happy within herself.
We all know where she is supposed to run in early November.
Beat her to win it.

[Dahoss9698]

Hard to argue with logic...:ThmbUp:

Ahhh, Mr. Passive Aggressive strikes again. I know, I know. You don't want to argue. :liar:

[Dahoss9698]

Again:
If we're so concerned with legacy and place in history, we absolutely need to look past our noses.

"Well, she stayed in California and no one came to her, she was a legend!"

Do you honestly expect history to look kindly on such a notion? All these other horses stayed away, so she's the best ever?

That's absurd. We we all - all - promised something greater. I, for one, will demand it until she hits the shed...I'd love to see a bout with history, as any sensible horseman would. But it needs to be earned. We want what we were promised, simple as that.

But hey, that's just me.

Hard to argue with logic...:ThmbUp:

[Dahoss9698]

Pretty simple, really.

Zenyatta's goal is to win the BC Classic at CD, and become HOY.

Prepping for that target shouldn't have to include seeking out every hot horse
within the 50 states, and beating them on the "sacred" dirt surface.

Keep the mare sound, and happy within herself.
We all know where she is supposed to run in early November.
Beat her to win it.

Who's asking for every hot horse? How about coming out of your comfort zone a little?

It boils down to this. Team Zenyatta wants the HOY, but doesn't want to earn it on the racetrack. It hasn't worked before and it won't work this time either.

[horses4courses]

Who's asking for every hot horse? How about coming out of your comfort zone a little?

It boils down to this. Team Zenyatta wants the HOY, but doesn't want to earn it on the racetrack. It hasn't worked before and it won't work this time either.

All you left out was the "Amen"........

[the little guy]

Fine, stay in California. It's her home and where her connections race. She doesn't owe it to people to travel. However, there are races for her there, specifically the Hollywood Gold Cup and the P Classic ( the " she hates Del Mar " is now obviously off the table ), yet her connections refuse to take up that challenge ( some challenge....she would be odds-on in each race ). Still, they insist she is the best horse in training....while racing her like she is not.

It's the connections that handle her like they don't believe the hype, which at this point makes you believe they don't have real confidence in her. She deserves better. Or just retire her. No shame in that either.

[Pick6]

So you can't explain it, because even you realize how idiotic it is. Gotcha.
So you can,t figure it out. Got it.

[Pick6]

Who's asking for every hot horse? How about coming out of your comfort zone a little?

It boils down to this. Team Zenyatta wants the HOY, but doesn't want to earn it on the racetrack. It hasn't worked before and it won't work this time either.
Undefeated campaign including BCC = 95% chance of HOY.

I'm sorry if you can't understand this.

Anything else?

[thaskalos]

Ahhh, Mr. Passive Aggressive strikes again. I know, I know. You don't want to argue. :liar:No manners at all...obviously the product of a misspent youth. Quite sad actually...(Oh my...was that a "deflection"?)

[WinterTriangle]

best horse in training....while racing her like she is not.

Perhaps they believe in racing a horse in a way that doesn't leave everything on the track.

That way, a G1,2,3-level horse can acutally have a racing career past 3 years of age.

Considering that the average TB lives to 25-35, anyone who doesn't question why so many can't race (sound) past 3-4 has isn't asking the right questions in this industry when asked "what is wrong?"

[Dahoss9698]

Undefeated campaign including BCC = 95% chance of HOY.

I'm sorry if you can't understand this.

Anything else?

How did that work out last year?

[thaskalos]

How did that work out last year? There was another horse with an 8-0 campaign last year...

[Dahoss9698]

No manners at all...obviously the product of a misspent youth. Quite sad actually...(Oh my...was that a "deflection"?)

You got me. You figured out how I grew up from a few posts on a message board. Well done.

Does your next act involve pulling a rabbit out of your hat?

[Dahoss9698]

There was another horse with an 8-0 campaign last year...

Yeah, but I thought the Breeders Cup was all that mattered. Guess not. You would think they would have learned from last year. It's no wonder they are still able to fool her drooling fans.

Since you fancy yourself a handicapper, maybe you can help Pick6 out. Doesn't a faster pace generally help out a deep closer?

[thaskalos]

Yeah, but I thought the Breeders Cup was all that mattered. Guess not. You would think they would have learned from last year. It's no wonder they are still able to fool her drooling fans.

Since you fancy yourself a handicapper, maybe you can help Pick6 out. Doesn't a faster pace generally help out a deep closer? Yes it does...but Zenyatta has proven repeatedly that she can prevail even with an unfavorable pace set-up.

[Pick6]

How did that work out last year?
Since I did not predict such for 09, just fine.

[Dahoss9698]

Yes it does...but Zenyatta has proven repeatedly that she can prevail even with an unfavorable pace set-up.
Agreed. It is worth noting synthetics are more forgiving to deep closers than dirt. But it is admirable that so far she has been immune to pace set ups.

[Pick6]

Yeah, but I thought the Breeders Cup was all that mattered. Guess not. You would think they would have learned from last year. It's no wonder they are still able to fool her drooling fans.

Since you fancy yourself a handicapper, maybe you can help Pick6 out. Doesn't a faster pace generally help out a deep closer?
No need to repeat your lack of understanding on the subject, really.

[thaskalos]

Agreed. It is worth noting synthetics are more forgiving to deep closers than dirt. But it is admirable that so far she has been immune to pace set ups. See...it didn't hurt to agree with me, did it?

[Dahoss9698]

Since I did not predict such for 09, just fine.

Yeah it worked out great. The look on Jerry Moss's face when RA was announced as HOY screamed "that's just fine."

[Dahoss9698]

See...it didn't hurt to agree with me, did it?

A little.

[Dahoss9698]

No need to repeat your lack of understanding on the subject, really.

Just so we're clear. You are of the opinion that a faster pace does not benefit a deep closer?

Simple question.

[thaskalos]

Agreed. It is worth noting synthetics are more forgiving to deep closers than dirt. But it is admirable that so far she has been immune to pace set ups. We'll make a Zenyatta fan out of you yet...

[Dahoss9698]

We'll make a Zenyatta fan out of you yet...

Contrary to popular belief, I think she is great. I just resent her fans for making her something she is not...and I really resent her connections for treating her like a show horse with their uninspiring campaigns.

[eastie]

Fine, stay in California. It's her home and where her connections race. She doesn't owe it to people to travel. However, there are races for her there, specifically the Hollywood Gold Cup and the P Classic ( the " she hates Del Mar " is now obviously off the table ), yet her connections refuse to take up that challenge ( some challenge....she would be odds-on in each race ). Still, they insist she is the best horse in training....while racing her like she is not.

It's the connections that handle her like they don't believe the hype, which at this point makes you believe they don't have real confidence in her. She deserves better. Or just retire her. No shame in that either.


It's like listening to Tommy Lee Jones playing Ty Cobb in that movie Cobbwhen he's talking about Babe Ruth.

She already whistled on dirt this year. She blew by your beloved Gio Ponti after he had gotten a huge jump on her in the classic, Still you show the big hoss no love. you better hope she doesn't show at saratoga, cause if she does she's gonna bite you right on your narrow ass on her way past you.

[Pick6]

Yeah it worked out great. The look on Jerry Moss's face when RA was announced as HOY screamed "that's just fine."
How that relates to my prediction of 2010 HOY is beyond me. I guess you got me on that one.

[chickenhead]

Or just retire her. No shame in that either.

I was with you right up to here.

I'd like her to be attempting more, but I can't really think how her not racing at all would be better than what she is doing, for anyone. That most would like her to do more isn't an argument to do less.

So, nay. Don't just retire her. People like watching her run, and by all appearances up to now, she likes to do it.

[thaskalos]

Contrary to popular belief, I think she is great. I just resent her fans for making her something she is not...and I really resent her connections for treating her like a show horse with their uninspiring campaigns. What is best for us horseplayers is sometimes bad for the horse. Who is to say how long Zenyatta would have lasted if she had been severely tested?

I know that if I were her owner, I wouldn't give a hoot about what the horseplayers thought of my decision-making. My loyalty would be to my horse, and to my pocket-book.

And if that made me unpopular, or even hated by the fans...well...the fans can pool their money, buy a high class horse, and then show me how it's done...:)

[Pick6]

Just so we're clear. You are of the opinion that a faster pace does not benefit a deep closer?

Simple question.
If you are asking about the pace setup favoring Z or St T in the Vanity, read my earlier post.

If you don't get it after reading it, then read it again.

[Dahoss9698]

What is best for us horseplayers is sometimes bad for the horse. Who is to say how long Zenyatta would have lasted if she had been severely tested?

I know that if I were her owner, I wouldn't give a hoot about what the horseplayers thought of my decision-making. My loyalty would be to my horse, and to my pocket-book.

And if that made me unpopular, or even hated by the fans...well...the fans can pool their money, buy a high class horse, and then show me how it's done...:)

That's fine. Then they shouldn't have said they were going to travel this year.

No one is asking for severe test after severe test. It's just that some are asking for more than one a year. While others seem okay with treating 11 months of the year as if they don't exist and being okay with one real race a year. Some of us expect more out of champions and supposed all time greats.

I just wish her connections were as confident in her as her fans are.

[Dahoss9698]

If you are asking about the pace setup favoring Z or St T in the Vanity, read my earlier post.

If you don't get it after reading it, then read it again.

Do you think you are fooling anyone with this act?

[PaceAdvantage]

Isn't it enough to be declared the best FEMALE horse in training...if not in recent memory?After that mighty slow Apple Blossom, even this isn't a given...

[Tom]

If we're so concerned with legacy and place in history, we absolutely need to look past our noses.

"Well, she stayed in California and no one came to her, she was a legend!"

Do you honestly expect history to look kindly on such a notion? All these other horses stayed away, so she's the best ever?

I could not care less what history says about her. The only thing that mattes to me is MY enjoyment of her career, and DITTO that for Rachael. I think this whole back and forth about them is the STUPIDEST crap we have ever hashed to death here, and believe me, we have argued some dumb stuff over the years! :rolleyes::D

I look forward to watching BOTH run in their next starts. And I would love to see them meet at 10 furlongs on dirt. At Churchill.

[andymays]

Total guess and probably 50-1 to happen but maybe they're gonna scratch her and retire her just before first post.

If they scratch now Hollywood loses a lot of on track handle and attendance. They're also giving away bobbleheads as a promotion.

I believe Shirreffs has said in the past that Zenyatta hates Del Mar and wouldn't race there again and now he says he's gonna race there again. :confused:

All the signs are there that somethings up on this one. Especially the lackluster workouts and the less than enthusiastic interview from Mike Smith yesterday.

Just Sayin and I'm probably wrong but ........................

[horses4courses]

After that mighty slow Apple Blossom, even this isn't a given...

Here we go again......... :bang:

Whether she is chasing down a fast or slow pace, Zenyatta gets the job done.
With you, PA, it always has to relate to speed figures.
Speed figures are like pictures in a book. They don't tell the whole story.

I realize that when some fast horse on a speed-favoring dirt track eventually beats her, you will be doing cartwheels.
With a bit of luck, you won't get the chance.
We should know come BC time........

[Jasonm921]

Well they know that synthetic surface are a thing of the past so they are trying to gobble up easy wins before they are forced to run on dirt. To the poster with the Quality Road...light campaign comment. Yeah it's been unorthodox but if he runs the table (Donn, Met Mile, Whitney, Woodward and BC Classic) how would you give the HOTY to Zenyatta?

[horses4courses]

Well they know that synthetic surface are a thing of the past so they are trying to gobble up easy wins before they are forced to run on dirt. To the poster with the Quality Road...light campaign comment. Yeah it's been unorthodox but if he runs the table (Donn, Met Mile, Whitney, Woodward and BC Classic) how would you give the HOTY to Zenyatta?

If that happens, QR would have to be HOY.
Let's just hope we see Z, RA, and QR go to post for the BC Classic.
That, in itself, would be quite an achievement.

[Jasonm921]

The Breeder's Cup the last two years was a sham. The dirt races were not on DIRT. It's like putting Cigar in the Arc D'Triumph and watching him lose badly and saying ...."see he sucked". The BC Classic was a non event that got blown up by the people who wanted to legitimize synthetics. Now the synthetic experiment has failed and California racing (at least Santa Anita) could return to legitimate status by reinstituting a dirt surface.

[gm10]

I'm a bit disappointed as we all are. The Vanity is a nice contest, with the presence of at least two quality performers (Zardana and St Trinians).
But they really should do something else than go to Del Mar after this race. She's the best horse in the US, they should let the East Coast fans enjoy her as well.

[the little guy]

I'm a bit disappointed as we all are. The Vanity is a nice contest, with the presence of at least two quality performers (Zardana and St Trinians).
But they really should do something else than go to Del Mar after this race. She's the best horse in the US, they should let the East Coast fans enjoy her as well.


Wrong again.

[Kimsus]

I understand the dissapointment of the fans. I don't agree with the decision either however I am not going to go overboard with the reaction as by some here. Who am I to second guess John Sheriff's, he knows the horse better than anyone and he is looking out for her best interests. Nor does the article say she is staying in California in the fall, if all things go well she will still be pointed for the BC Classic.

As we know in horseracing no plans are set in stone, she may prep at Belmont, Keeneland before the Classic, to avoid shipping back and forth. If this is the case she would have had 2-3 races out east this year, if anyone would have said she would have had 3 races out east at the beginning of the year when retirement was imminent, I think they would have rather pleased. Regardless, no one is stopping anyone from shipping to test her at Delmar.

The book is still open, we will see.

[Headbanger]

I understand the dissapointment of the fans. I don't agree with the decision either however I am not going to go overboard with the reaction as by some here. Who am I to second guess John Sheriff's, he knows the horse better than anyone and he is looking out for her best interests. Nor does the article say she is staying in California in the fall, if all things go well she will still be pointed for the BC Classic.

As we know in horseracing no plans are set in stone, she may prep at Belmont, Keeneland before the Classic, to avoid shipping back and forth. If this is the case she would have had 2-3 races out east this year, if anyone would have said she would have had 3 races out east at the beginning of the year when retirement was imminent, I think they would have rather pleased. Regardless, no one is stopping anyone from shipping to test her at Delmar.

The book is still open, we will see.

Are you a fool or do you just have no common sense. No one wants to go out with a DIRT horse and challenge a horse on a bullsh!t surface that is made of grinded up rubber and tires and that has no business being in racing. I swear some of you wouldn't have a clue if it hit you square in the forhead.

[5k-claim]

What is best for us horseplayers is sometimes bad for the horse. Who is to say how long Zenyatta would have lasted if she had been severely tested?

I know that if I were her owner, I wouldn't give a hoot about what the horseplayers thought of my decision-making. My loyalty would be to my horse, and to my pocket-book.

And if that made me unpopular, or even hated by the fans...well...the fans can pool their money, buy a high class horse, and then show me how it's done...:)

The day John Sheriffs lets the groupspeak of an internet message forum dictate in any way how he advises the Mosses about their mare is the day they should take the horse away from him.

I don't see that happening any time soon.

I would love to have seen a little something different by now, but Z is not my horse and I do not have to live with any decisions about her every day for the rest of my life. As a fan, I will have the luxury of just turning the page to the "next big thing" if I want to. Sheriffs and the Mosses don't have that luxury. I don't really know if they are getting things right or wrong, but as long as they are doing what they feel is best for their mare, then I cannot really point any finger at them. "Right" or "wrong" just simply becomes "I understand, good luck to you!" at that point.

[ArlJim78]

Are you a fool or do you just have no common sense. No one wants to go out with a DIRT horse and challenge a horse on a bullsh!t surface that is made of grinded up rubber and tires and that has no business being in racing. I swear some of you wouldn't have a clue if it hit you square in the forhead.
It does make sense for certain horses to avoid the surface. Some can handle it, others can't. Wouldn't commonsense also dictate that a horse based in SoCal would tend to race in local races and not repeatedly ship out all over the country to race, as some on here suggest?

[Kimsus]

Are you a fool or do you just have no common sense. No one wants to go out with a DIRT horse and challenge a horse on a bullsh!t surface that is made of grinded up rubber and tires and that has no business being in racing. I swear some of you wouldn't have a clue if it hit you square in the forhead.

Why not, it's okay for Zenyatta to, but no it doesn't work the other way for other horses, I see you have selective...
http://www.mediabistro.com/agencyspy/original/kfc_logo_file_www_ComVort.png

itis...

[the little guy]

It does make sense for certain horses to avoid the surface. Some can handle it, others can't. Wouldn't commonsense also dictate that a horse based in SoCal would tend to race in local races and not repeatedly ship out all over the country to race, as some on here suggest?


There is no specific rason for her to ship, as CA is her home and the home base of her connections, but considering the posturing about her supposed talents, how about running her in some competitive races like the Hollywood Gold Cup and P Classic...two races she would be odds-on in anyway?

[GaryG]

If they want HOY they will have to ship. With all of the big races in New York it would be insane for the big guns to ship west. And there is not likely to be a lifetime achievement award. HOY is Quality Road's if Pletcher can keep him sound all year.

[Show Me the Wire]

If they want HOY they will have to ship. With all of the big races in New York it would be insane for the big guns to ship west. And there is not likely to be a lifetime achievement award. HOY is Quality Road's if Pletcher can keep him sound all year.


I agree HOY is QR's this year if he carries forward his accomplishments. So why should the Moss' chase an award they can't possibly win with Zenyatta if Quality Road continues his great perfromances? Simply put they shouldn't to the detriment of their horse.

[Kimsus]

Honestly HOY is the most overrated award right now, does anyone really recall the last 15 HOY's off the top of their head, what people remember are great defining performances. I don't get all this emphasis on Horse of The Year.

[GaryG]

I agree HOY is QR's this year if he carries forward his accomplishments. So why should the Moss' chase an award they can't possibly win with Zenyatta if Quality Road continues his great perfromances? Simply put they shouldn't to the detriment of their horse.Next thing you know she will be accused of ducking QR. It would certainly be a many gesture to challenge him at Saratoga. Manly, but not very wise.

[cj]

Honestly HOY is the most overrated award right now, does anyone really recall the last 15 HOY's off the top of their head, what people remember are great defining performances. I don't get all this emphasis on Horse of The Year.

What awards are underrated?

[Tom]

You can't cont the Belmont races as legitimate Grade 1 races - they are around only one turn. Every other major route race is run around two.
Come one, now! :rolleyes:

[Kimsus]

What awards are underrated?

It's a popularity contest, maybe it's just me but if you ask me who won the eclipses the past 10 years, no let's even make that 5 years off the top of my head, I would have to use the computer to look it up. You ask me about a specific performance or performances I would recall that in a second.

[FenceBored]

Honestly HOY is the most overrated award right now, does anyone really recall the last 15 HOY's off the top of their head, what people remember are great defining performances. I don't get all this emphasis on Horse of The Year.

I never wanted those grapes, and anyway they're sour.

[Kimsus]

I never wanted those grapes, and anyway they're sour.

I forget you don't watch races, you'd rather sit at your computer and count awards and or stats...All after the fact.

[GaryG]

All you need is a picture of Mr. Moss when the award was announced for last year. Ask him about awards. And then when Jess Jackson (the white one) refers to his filly as "reigning HOY"....

[Kimsus]

There is no specific rason for her to ship, as CA is her home and the home base of her connections, but considering the posturing about her supposed talents, how about running her in some competitive races like the Hollywood Gold Cup and P Classic...two races she would be odds-on in anyway?

If she comes out east and preps at either Belmont or Keeneland prior to the BC at CD, will this move of staying out west for one more race seem like a smart move from an ownership/training perspective, rather than shipping 3 times in one year? i would surmise if they did this and I have no idea will they ultimately go this route, but they have only committed to late summer. This would be a very logical way to end her career, if they do plan on testing her in another race besides the BC Classic.

[NTamm1215]

It's a popularity contest, maybe it's just me but if you ask me who won the eclipses the past 10 years, no let's even make that 5 years off the top of my head, I would have to use the computer to look it up. You ask me about a specific performance or performances I would recall that in a second.

I'll take a shot in the dark, but I'm pretty sure if Zenyatta had won it in either of the last two years you'd make reference to it endlessly.

NT

[classhandicapper]

I'm not sure why this is a shock to anyone.

I told everyone from the beginning that if the long term goal is to run in the Classic they are going to more or less repeat her campaign from last year because last year she was handled about as well as a horse can be handled. At best we might see one effort on dirt somewhere later on.

If you start a horse early in the year and you want it to peak for the BCC the best way to do it is to have several well spaced races, do very little traveling, and have very few races that will require peak strenuous efforts that drain the horse.

Rachel will be handled similarly given that this year she has the same goal.

To be honest though, I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that Zenyatta is not going to make it until the end of the year this time around.

I'm not even sure she's going to win this weekend if one of the other horses (St Trians being the most likely) fires a legitimately high level effort or beats her to the move in a very slow paced race.

I've been following the way this horse works for her entire career. IMHO she is not the same mare since the AB. I hope I am wrong or that she turns it around again, but I sense she's ready to be beaten by a much lesser foe and sent off to retirement. If not this weekend, very soon.

[Kimsus]

I'll take a shot in the dark, but I'm pretty sure if Zenyatta had won it in either of the last two years you'd make reference to it endlessly.

NT

I have never referred to Cigar as the former HOY or any other great horse that I know of including Secretariat. The only reference of HOY I have made is of Rachel Alexandra, mostly because her fanantic fans seem to revel in this. So I guess the answer to that is no, I don't care. When you say Holy Bull or Cigar you automatically think of great horse, or atleast I do, I don't think former HOY.

[breezing]

I'm not sure why this is a shock to anyone.

I told everyone from the beginning that if the long term goal is to run in the Classic they are going to more or less repeat her campaign from last year because last year she was handled about as well as a horse can be handled. At best we might see one effort on dirt somewhere later on.

If you start a horse early in the year and you want it to peak for the BCC the best way to do it is to have several well spaced races, do very little traveling, and have very few races that will require peak strenuous efforts that drain the horse.

Rachel will be handled similarly given that this year she has the same goal.

To be honest though, I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that Zenyatta is not going to make it until the end of the year this time around.

I'm not even sure she's going to win this weekend if one of the other horses (St Trians being the most likely) fires a legitimately high level effort or beats her to the move in a very slow paced race.

I've been following the way this horse works for her entire career. IMHO she is not the same mare since the AB. I hope I am wrong or that she turns it around again, but I sense she's ready to be beaten by a much lesser foe and sent off to retirement. If not this weekend, very soon.

unless i'm reading her works wrong she has been officially working for 16 consecutive months without a real break (no official workouts in december 09 but she was galloping) - i'll be there sunday, could be an interesting day.

[gm10]

I'm not sure why this is a shock to anyone.

I told everyone from the beginning that if the long term goal is to run in the Classic they are going to more or less repeat her campaign from last year because last year she was handled about as well as a horse can be handled. At best we might see one effort on dirt somewhere later on.

If you start a horse early in the year and you want it to peak for the BCC the best way to do it is to have several well spaced races, do very little traveling, and have very few races that will require peak strenuous efforts that drain the horse.

Rachel will be handled similarly given that this year she has the same goal.

To be honest though, I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that Zenyatta is not going to make it until the end of the year this time around.

I'm not even sure she's going to win this weekend if one of the other horses (St Trians being the most likely) fires a legitimately high level effort or beats her to the move in a very slow paced race.

I've been following the way this horse works for her entire career. IMHO she is not the same mare since the AB. I hope I am wrong or that she turns it around again, but I sense she's ready to be beaten by a much lesser foe and sent off to retirement. If not this weekend, very soon.

Her works were slow as well when she was training up to the Vanity last year.

29 Jun: 6F in 74.80 sec
22 Jun: 6F in 72.40 sec
14 Jun: 6F in 75.20 sec

Nothing to worry about imo.

[1st time lasix]

There is nothing wrong with Zenyatta staying in Cal as this is where the strongest horses reside in general. But she should be racing in the Hollywood Gold Cup and Pacific Classic this year Are you smoking the poly too?

[NTamm1215]

Her works were slow as well when she was training up to the Vanity last year.

29 Jun: 6F in 74.80 sec
22 Jun: 6F in 72.40 sec
14 Jun: 6F in 75.20 sec

Nothing to worry about imo.

So she worked on June 14, 22, and 29 and ran on the 27th? You're right, she is a superhorse.

NT

[Hedevar]

There is nothing wrong with Zenyatta staying in Cal as this is where the strongest horses reside in general. But she should be racing in the Hollywood Gold Cup and Pacific Classic this year

If the strongest horses reside in California why are all those vans heading east? Not to mention the planes for those that can afford them.

[gm10]

So she worked on June 14, 22, and 29 and ran on the 27th? You're right, she is a superhorse.

NT

very funny
I meant 2008

last year

22 Jun: 72.40
20 Jun: 72.60
14 Jun: 75.20

[Pick6]

If they want HOY they will have to ship. With all of the big races in New York it would be insane for the big guns to ship west. And there is not likely to be a lifetime achievement award. HOY is Quality Road's if Pletcher can keep him sound all year.
If QR does not win BCC assuming Z wins it he has no chance at HOY. He has campaigned lightly to this point, and if his connections are gearing toward the Whitney next that leaves him with 5 races likely prior to a BCC appearance. Assuming he wins his next 2 it should be enough for older horse honors. But if he can't come home with the bacon in the BCC, unless some huge surprise scores this will almost certainly not be enough for HOY.

[Pick6]

Do you think you are fooling anyone with this act?
No, I don't think asking someone to read a simple, logical statement is attempting to fool anyone.

[Pick6]

Well they know that synthetic surface are a thing of the past so they are trying to gobble up easy wins before they are forced to run on dirt. To the poster with the Quality Road...light campaign comment. Yeah it's been unorthodox but if he runs the table (Donn, Met Mile, Whitney, Woodward and BC Classic) how would you give the HOTY to Zenyatta?
QR winning BCC would imply that Z does not win BCC, which I assume Z would need to get HOY. Unless they run it in divisions, both of them winning it would obviously not be possible.

I agree if QR runs the table and defeats Z in the BCC he gets HOY.

[gm10]

QR winning BCC would imply that Z does not win BCC, which I assume Z would need to get HOY. Unless they run it in divisions, both of them winning it would obviously not be possible.

I agree if QR runs the table and defeats Z in the BCC he gets HOY.

I don't see QR winning the BC Classic to be honest. I'm a big fan his, I had a lot of money on ante post bets for the Kentucky Derby, but I don't see him beating the best open company over 10F.

[classhandicapper]

Her works were slow as well when she was training up to the Vanity last year.

29 Jun: 6F in 74.80 sec
22 Jun: 6F in 72.40 sec
14 Jun: 6F in 75.20 sec

Nothing to worry about imo.

We'll see.

If she threw in a 112 and change breeze recently I wouldn't be as worried about the final breeze, but the last two works were on the weak side and the verbal description I got was not very encouraging either. The previous 113H was also below what she's capable of when she's going really well.

Take a look at her first start in the S MRGRTAH. She was assigned a 102 Beyer. At the time I suggested that was probably a significant overstatement of reality. Most of those horses have come back now and they are averaging Beyers about 15-20 points slower.

I know I've been arguing that final time figures are less meaningful on synthetic because of pace considerations. They are also not comparable to dirt. I still think that's clear. But an 85-88 under any conditions doesn't convince me she's near her peak.

Also, even though the AB was a walk in the park against weaker, a 95 handily on dirt is not entirely convincing either.

I "AM convinced" that St Trinians is an EXCELLENT mare when she's right and she seems to be doing really well. She's getting 9 pounds and first move. I think she will be very tough to run down on Sunday unless Zenyatta is doing better than I think.

Just thinking out loud and hoping I'm wrong.

[Hedevar]

When Zenyatta did not win Horse of the Year and it was decided to keep racing her, we were told she would travel and race across the country. Some disbelievers were told in a less than nice way that it was early, wait you'll see, she'll get her suitcase packed and travel. Then Memorial Day rolled around and the disbelievers again questioned when Zenyatta would leave California? Oh you of disbelief you do not know the travel schedule and do you truly have normal bodily functions? Then we were told that ounce she won her 17th in a row the pressure would be off and she would travel so her fans could she her.

Now she needs a rabbit to win number 17 and she will be heading for Del Mar a place she does not like to race. I agree with Andy she never sees Churchill. Too much doesn't add up. Shirreffs doesn't want to take on first class dirt horses on dirt. I recall one Zenyattian trying to convince me that Gio Ponti was a world class horse on Pro-Ride.

If Bernie Madoff could have some time with these Zenyattians he could rack up another couple billion because they will believe anything.

[horses4courses]

When Zenyatta did not win Horse of the Year and it was decided to keep racing her, we were told she would travel and race across the country. Some disbelievers were told in a less than nice way that it was early, wait you'll see, she'll get her suitcase packed and travel. Then Memorial Day rolled around and the disbelievers again questioned when Zenyatta would leave California? Oh you of disbelief you do not know the travel schedule and do you truly have normal bodily functions? Then we were told that ounce she won her 17th in a row the pressure would be off and she would travel so her fans could she her.

Now she needs a rabbit to win number 17 and she will be heading for Del Mar a place she does not like to race. I agree with Andy she never sees Churchill. Too much doesn't add up. Sherriffs doesn't want to take on first class dirt horses on dirt. I recall one Zenyattian trying to convince me that Gio Ponti was a world class horse on Pro-Ride.

If Bernie Madoff could have some time with these Zenyattians he could rack up another couple billion because they will believe anything.

BS....
She went to Oaklawn....nobody showed up.
You make her sound like P.T. Barnum should be dragging her around the country, like some freak show just so the "fans" can see her.

If she's fit, she goes to Churchill.
You can bet on that.

[letswastemoney]

BS....
She went to Oaklawn....nobody showed up.
You make her sound like P.T. Barnum should be dragging her around the country, like some freak show just so the "fans" can see her.

If she's fit, she goes to Churchill.
You can bet on that.
Half of the horse population was ineligible to show up.

[FenceBored]

If she's fit, she goes to Churchill.
You can bet on that.

Exactly. ;)

[Hedevar]

BS....
She went to Oaklawn....nobody showed up.
You make her sound like P.T. Barnum should be dragging her around the country, like some freak show just so the "fans" can see her.

If she's fit, she goes to Churchill.
You can bet on that.

How many races out of California in four years? How many races on dirt in four years? How many Horse of the Year titles?

[OTM Al]

Wow, these things just multiply exponentially.

Well, for all those with blinkers on, the best filly/mare who raced in the US last year, Goldikova, is expected to run at Ascot next Tuesday. She's running against top male milers on the straight. I figure she has a better chance of being the first 3 time BC winner than Zenyatta, who I will add is a very good runner who will be in the HOF. And those who are upset by what I say, consider the fact that without Rachel winning HOY this year, there are 3 less races at least that you could have seen Zenyatta, so instead of bashing one of the best 3yo years we've seen in a while, we should be thankful and wish both of these horses well. But I still think Goldi is better than both of them :)

[Robert Goren]

When Zenyatta did not win Horse of the Year and it was decided to keep racing her, we were told she would travel and race across the country. Some disbelievers were told in a less than nice way that it was early, wait you'll see, she'll get her suitcase packed and travel. Then Memorial Day rolled around and the disbelievers again questioned when Zenyatta would leave California? Oh you of disbelief you do not know the travel schedule and do you truly have normal bodily functions? Then we were told that ounce she won her 17th in a row the pressure would be off and she would travel so her fans could she her.

Now she needs a rabbit to win number 17 and she will be heading for Del Mar a place she does not like to race. I agree with Andy she never sees Churchill. Too much doesn't add up. Shirreffs doesn't want to take on first class dirt horses on dirt. I recall one Zenyattian trying to convince me that Gio Ponti was a world class horse on Pro-Ride.

If Bernie Madoff could have some time with these Zenyattians he could rack up another couple billion because they will believe anything.He was more than willing to take on the defending HOY the year in Oaklawn. It was the owners the defending HOY that turned tail and ran. They haven't stopped running yet. If someone want to put up a five million dollar purse I sure she will be there, I can not say the same for the defending HOY. Why shoud come east to run for the same purses that she can in California for.

[gm10]

We'll see.

If she threw in a 112 and change breeze recently I wouldn't be as worried about the final breeze, but the last two works were on the weak side and the verbal description I got was not very encouraging either. The previous 113H was also below what she's capable of when she's going really well.

Take a look at her first start in the S MRGRTAH. She was assigned a 102 Beyer. At the time I suggested that was probably a significant overstatement of reality. Most of those horses have come back now and they are averaging Beyers about 15-20 points slower.

I'm not sure what BSF of 102 means but loosely converted from my own scale I would have expected 95. It was a difficult race for her in the end, yet there was no credit to be had against a field like this.

I know I've been arguing that final time figures are less meaningful on synthetic because of pace considerations. They are also not comparable to dirt. I still think that's clear. But an 85-88 under any conditions doesn't convince me she's near her peak.

Also, even though the AB was a walk in the park against weaker, a 95 handily on dirt is not entirely convincing either.

I "AM convinced" that St Trinians is an EXCELLENT mare when she's right and she seems to be doing really well. She's getting 9 pounds and first move. I think she will be very tough to run down on Sunday unless Zenyatta is doing better than I think.

Just thinking out loud and hoping I'm wrong.

I was thinking the same last summer that Zenyatta was on the way down. I actually told somebody that a certain horse should not to run in the F&M Sprint because Ventura and Informed Decision would be harder to beat than Zenyatta in the Distaff!! St Trinians is not bad but really shouldn't be up to Zenyatta's level with 9 lbs in hand. Zardana is a bigger threat on paper - although they might be trying to pull an Aidan O'Brien here wrt team tactics.

[gm10]

Wow, these things just multiply exponentially.

Well, for all those with blinkers on, the best filly/mare who raced in the US last year, Goldikova, is expected to run at Ascot next Tuesday. She's running against top male milers on the straight. I figure she has a better chance of being the first 3 time BC winner than Zenyatta, who I will add is a very good runner who will be in the HOF. And those who are upset by what I say, consider the fact that without Rachel winning HOY this year, there are 3 less races at least that you could have seen Zenyatta, so instead of bashing one of the best 3yo years we've seen in a while, we should be thankful and wish both of these horses well. But I still think Goldi is better than both of them :)

I love Goldikova. The Queen Anne stakes is the race of the year imo.

[horses4courses]

Wow, these things just multiply exponentially.

Well, for all those with blinkers on, the best filly/mare who raced in the US last year, Goldikova, is expected to run at Ascot next Tuesday. She's running against top male milers on the straight. I figure she has a better chance of being the first 3 time BC winner than Zenyatta, who I will add is a very good runner who will be in the HOF. And those who are upset by what I say, consider the fact that without Rachel winning HOY this year, there are 3 less races at least that you could have seen Zenyatta, so instead of bashing one of the best 3yo years we've seen in a while, we should be thankful and wish both of these horses well. But I still think Goldi is better than both of them :)

It's like comparing an apple to an orange, and then either to a pineapple.
All are great mares in their own right, but on different surfaces.
Each has their own optimal surface, and distance.
Projecting outcomes is, thus, difficult and completely subjective.

[Robert Goren]

Wow, these things just multiply exponentially.

Well, for all those with blinkers on, the best filly/mare who raced in the US last year, Goldikova, is expected to run at Ascot next Tuesday. She's running against top male milers on the straight. I figure she has a better chance of being the first 3 time BC winner than Zenyatta, who I will add is a very good runner who will be in the HOF. And those who are upset by what I say, consider the fact that without Rachel winning HOY this year, there are 3 less races at least that you could have seen Zenyatta, so instead of bashing one of the best 3yo years we've seen in a while, we should be thankful and wish both of these horses well. But I still think Goldi is better than both of them :) But she not 3 anymore and as 4 yo she has yet to beat anybody and lost to a couple of nobodies. A great 3 yo year does not make a great race horse. The great ones come out even better as 4 yo. It just too bad that all the RA fans can't except it and knock a great horse who is now six and still winning.

[Hedevar]

He was more than willing to take on the defending HOY the year in Oaklawn. It was the owners the defending HOY that turned tail and ran. They haven't stopped running yet. If someone want to put up a five million dollar purse I sure she will be there, I can not say the same for the defending HOY. Why shoud come east to run for the same purses that she can in California for.

The simplest reason I can think of is that Zenyatta is racing because Moss wants Horse of the Year. If she stays in California he has one shot and one shot only. Win the BCC big. It's a hell of a crapshoot. I'll give him that.

[andymays]

The simplest reason I can think of is that Zenyatta is racing because Moss wants Horse of the Year. If she stays in California he has one shot and one shot only. Win the BCC big. It's a hell of a crapshoot. I'll give him that.


They're not doing themeselves any favors with the people that vote for HOY again this year.

[Dahoss9698]

No, I don't think asking someone to read a simple, logical statement is attempting to fool anyone.

There is nothing logical about any statement you have made in this thread.

Least of all was your inference that a rabbit will help St Trinians more than Zenyatta. But hey, please carry on. It's entertaining.

[Pick6]

There is nothing logical about any statement you have made in this thread.

Least of all was your inference that a rabbit will help St Trinians more than Zenyatta. But hey, please carry on. It's entertaining.
I have a sister in law that teaches kindergarten. Perhaps she can help with your failure in understanding simple logical statements.

[Dahoss9698]

I have a sister in law that teaches kindergarten. Perhaps she can help with your failure in understanding simple logical statements.

Are some of her students helping you with your comebacks?

[Pick6]

Are some of her students helping you with your comebacks?
Just trying to help you out with the logic stuff.

Not sure if she can help with confusion and/or denial. That might require some more expert assistance.

She probably could help with your responses, if you wish to improve to a decent level of proficiency there.

[classhandicapper]

I was thinking the same last summer that Zenyatta was on the way down. I actually told somebody that a certain horse should not to run in the F&M Sprint because Ventura and Informed Decision would be harder to beat than Zenyatta in the Distaff!! St Trinians is not bad but really shouldn't be up to Zenyatta's level with 9 lbs in hand. Zardana is a bigger threat on paper - although they might be trying to pull an Aidan O'Brien here wrt team tactics.

I had no problem with her last year because a few of her slow races were in ridiculously slow paced affairs where she outkicked her Grade 1 winning stablemate and left her in the dust.

[classhandicapper]

I recall one Zenyattian trying to convince me that Gio Ponti was a world class horse on Pro-Ride.


Gio Ponti IS an excellent Pro Ride horse.

Aside from running his lifetime top figure and finishing ahead of several Grade 1 winning horses (including on Pro Ride) in the Classic, he followed that up with a very sold 4th and close in the Dubai World Cup. If you watched the World Cup you would realize they absolutely crawled early and gave no one any chance to close, but despite that Gio Ponti did finish quite well. He has yet to recover his best form on turf since that trip, but the season is not over.

[kenwoodall2]

;) Both mare and filly are still getting PR form some local big city newspaper- probably the best continuous horse racing coverage in years! Message to Z and RA and connections- Please keep doing what you are doing- hiding from each other but NOT from the press!
HOY= Millions! / 16 wins in a row= Millions / RA vs Z staying in the general public press= priceless!! ;)

[classhandicapper]

I love Goldikova. The Queen Anne stakes is the race of the year imo.

I agree. Goldikova is a terrific filly. Imagine how good Zarkava was.

Do you play a lot of overseas races?

I really want to step up and start playing the major races in England, France, and elsewhere but I don't know here to get a good set of PPs (standard DRF PPs for overseas horses) and don't know where to bet. YOUBET takes some, but not all.

I also used to have a link to the replays of all the big races in Europe but I lost that too. :blush:

[Hedevar]

Gio Ponti IS an excellent Pro Ride horse.

Aside from running his lifetime top figure and finishing ahead of several Grade 1 winning horses (including on Pro Ride) in the Classic, he followed that up with a very sold 4th and close in the Dubai World Cup. If you watched the World Cup you would realize they absolutely crawled early and gave no one any chance to close, but despite that Gio Ponti did finish quite well. He has yet to recover his best form on turf since that trip, but the season is not over.

When was the last time he won any kind of race?

[OTM Al]

It's like comparing an apple to an orange, and then either to a pineapple.
All are great mares in their own right, but on different surfaces.
Each has their own optimal surface, and distance.
Projecting outcomes is, thus, difficult and completely subjective.

Of course! I'm glad you are one of the few people who actually gets this. BTW Dar Re Mi didn't stink it up over here either. Going against the boys was great because she would have creamed the competiton in the F&M. I was actually hoping to see her face Zenyatta at some point. I believe she is still in training isn't she?

[classhandicapper]

When was the last time he won any kind of race?

He strung together a series of Grade 1s last year and was still at his peak for the Classic. IMO he held his form in the Dubai Cup (though it is hidden) but has gone south a bit since being given a short break after that trip. It's not unusual for a horse to not be 100% the year following a tough campaign. I thought he ran OK last weekend. He may still recover his best form.

[OTM Al]

I agree. Goldikova is a terrific filly. Imagine how good Zarkava was.

Do you play a lot of overseas races?

I really want to step up and start playing the major races in England, France, and elsewhere but I don't know here to get a good set of PPs (standard DRF PPs for overseas horses) and don't know where to bet. YOUBET takes some, but not all.

I also used to have a link to the replays of all the big races in Europe but I lost that too. :blush:

Twin Spires carries a good selection of English races along with some from South Africa and occasionally Japan and France. The PPs are different, just the way it is, and they call for a different style of handicapping than most use over here. Race replays, which are all available for England and Ireland, on At The Races and RacingUK are a good help as well. I've been making my own DB starting with the flat season this spring because honestly I enjoy the races over there more. Just too bad our totes can't fully handle the fields when they go over 20.

[OTM Al]

I love Goldikova. The Queen Anne stakes is the race of the year imo.

At least until the top 3yos join the older ones. Might be a few good ones out of that bunch.

[Hedevar]

www.equidaily.com (http://www.equidaily.com)

From the "Uh, or not..." Dept:
>>> March 2010: Trainer, "Zenyatta came back so we could have some fun with her and other fans could see her. That was the whole thing."
>>> Jan 2010: Owner, "I would say we're probably going to travel a bit. I'd like to see her run in some dirt races."
Uh, or not...
>>> After trying for a 3-peat in Hollywood's G1 $250K Vanity Hcp, Zenyatta likely to try for a 3-peat in Del Mar's G1 $300K Clement Hirsch

Zenyattians will believe anything.

[Dahoss9698]

Gio Ponti IS an excellent Pro Ride horse.

Aside from running his lifetime top figure and finishing ahead of several Grade 1 winning horses (including on Pro Ride) in the Classic, he followed that up with a very sold 4th and close in the Dubai World Cup. If you watched the World Cup you would realize they absolutely crawled early and gave no one any chance to close, but despite that Gio Ponti did finish quite well. He has yet to recover his best form on turf since that trip, but the season is not over.

The Dubai World Cup isn't on Pro Ride. It's on Tapeta.

[Dahoss9698]

Just trying to help you out with the logic stuff.

Not sure if she can help with confusion and/or denial. That might require some more expert assistance.

She probably could help with your responses, if you wish to improve to a decent level of proficiency there.

Yes, I'm clearly confused. I think a rabbit helps a deep closer. You don't. I could give many examples of it. You have yet to provide one.

But I'm the one that needs help with logic. Again, anyone fooled by this retread?

[kenwoodall2]

www.equidaily.com (http://www.equidaily.com)

From the "Uh, or not..." Dept:
>>> March 2010: Trainer, "Zenyatta came back so we could have some fun with her and other fans could see her. That was the whole thing."
>>> Jan 2010: Owner, "I would say we're probably going to travel a bit. I'd like to see her run in some dirt races."
Uh, or not...
>>> After trying for a 3-peat in Hollywood's G1 $250K Vanity Hcp, Zenyatta likely to try for a 3-peat in Del Mar's G1 $300K Clement Hirsch

Zenyattians will believe anything.
I believe Z will keep racing SoCal until it goes back to dirt, THEN RA will come West!!

[thaskalos]

If Bernie Madoff could have some time with these Zenyattians he could rack up another couple billion because they will believe anything. And how would we "Zenyattians" get our hands on a couple billion dollars? We are supposed to be the worst handicappers around...

[Hedevar]

Z had her worst effort with a fast pace.

St T prefers a faster front end, so any honest pace will most likely favor her not Z.

With reasonable odds St T is a play here.

The name I use on this board Hedevar, was an exceptionally fast sprinter in the 60s trained by Frank Whiteley. Whiteley used him as a rabbit when he ran Damascus against Dr. Fager who was the fastest horse I have ever seen on two occasions. In the Woodward in September of 1967 Hedevar raced Dr. Fager to six furlongs in 1:09 1/5 and Damascus closed to win by 10 lengths with Buckpasser second, in his final race, the Doctor was third. In the Suburban on July 4th 1968 Hedevar was not entered. Dr. Fager went to the lead and won in 1:59 3/5 with Damascus third beaten by five lenghts.

Three weeks later in the Brooklyn, Hedevar was back and went 1:09 2/5 to six furlongs with the Doctor. In the stretch along came Damascus to beat Dr. Fager by two and one-half lenghts and set a track reacord.

I really do not understand how you feel a rabbit favors a horse that prefers a fast pace.

[classhandicapper]

The Dubai World Cup isn't on Pro Ride. It's on Tapeta.

Thanks for the correction.

I tend to lump all the synthetics together even though there are mild differences. I should have said his performance on Tapeta further seals his ability on synthetic tracks because Prod Ride seems to be the most like turf.

[gm10]

At least until the top 3yos join the older ones. Might be a few good ones out of that bunch.

Possibly - although I'm not convinced about any of them at this point. Workforce 's final time is almost certainly misleading. I liked Makfi but a lot of observers seem to think he's a miler.

[gm10]

Gio Ponti IS an excellent Pro Ride horse.

Aside from running his lifetime top figure and finishing ahead of several Grade 1 winning horses (including on Pro Ride) in the Classic, he followed that up with a very sold 4th and close in the Dubai World Cup. If you watched the World Cup you would realize they absolutely crawled early and gave no one any chance to close, but despite that Gio Ponti did finish quite well. He has yet to recover his best form on turf since that trip, but the season is not over.

Yes, I am amazed that the gentleman is using this argument to show how little that particular Zenyatta fan knew about racing. I completely agree with him and you: Gio Ponti is very good on the synthetic. In fact I would say it's his best surface. He can achieve a very high speed coming into the final furlong but doesn't seem to have the very late punch that true turf champions possess.

[gm10]

I agree. Goldikova is a terrific filly. Imagine how good Zarkava was.

Do you play a lot of overseas races?

I really want to step up and start playing the major races in England, France, and elsewhere but I don't know here to get a good set of PPs (standard DRF PPs for overseas horses) and don't know where to bet. YOUBET takes some, but not all.

I also used to have a link to the replays of all the big races in Europe but I lost that too. :blush:

I would suggest Attheraces.com. They have free PP's and replays for the races that they broadcast. Racing UK's races are accessible through racingpost.com but they charge you for it.

If you are really serious about playing overseas races, I would suggest getting a racingpost subscription for 6 months a year (I cancel mine during the jumps season). I think it's about 15 dollars a month and you get access to the Racing Post Ratings and Topspeed ratings. The first are performances ratings, the latter are pure speed ratings.

I play a lot of overseas races as I'm based overseas :) - just moved to Epsom last week, actually!

[Pick6]

Yes, I'm clearly confused. I think a rabbit helps a deep closer. You don't. I could give many examples of it. You have yet to provide one.

But I'm the one that needs help with logic. Again, anyone fooled by this retread?
I already did.

You are completely confused on this issue.

[Dahoss9698]

I already did.

You are completely confused on this issue.

What am I confused about? I know a rabbit helps Zenyatta out a lot more than St Trinians. It's not even debateable. These are basic concepts.

Look, I'm sorry you haven't grasped these basics, but I do encourage you to bet more. The more stupid money the better.

[Pick6]

The name I use on this board Hedevar, was an exceptionally fast sprinter in the 60s trained by Frank Whiteley. Whiteley used him as a rabbit when he ran Damascus against Dr. Fager who was the fastest horse I have ever seen on two occasions. In the Woodward in September of 1967 Hedevar raced Dr. Fager to six furlongs in 1:09 1/5 and Damascus closed to win by 10 lengths with Buckpasser second, in his final race, the Doctor was third. In the Suburban on July 4th 1968 Hedevar was not entered. Dr. Fager went to the lead and won in 1:59 3/5 with Damascus third beaten by five lenghts.

Three weeks later in the Brooklyn, Hedevar was back and went 1:09 2/5 to six furlongs with the Doctor. In the stretch along came Damascus to beat Dr. Fager by two and one-half lenghts and set a track reacord.

I really do not understand how you feel a rabbit favors a horse that prefers a fast pace.
Of course the Hedevar rabbit duels with Dr Fager are well remembered by any racing historian. I will not go into the merits of how entering a rabbit reduces the value of the win.

Your question of how I feel a rabbit favors a horse that prefers a fast pace, the explanation is simple: horses that cannot "relax" on the front end, are less likely to sustain their stamina later in the race, as their energy has been expended running along with other pacesetters. Generally speaking, horses who benefit most from a fast pace are those who are not expending a lot of energy on the front end.

This is basic stuff. Maybe you are mixing horses who typically prefer the front end and those who prefer a "fast pace". If a horse who prefers to run on the front end can tactically slow the pace down (i.e. avoid a "fast pace") to a manageable level, that horse should benefit.

[Pick6]

What am I confused about? I know a rabbit helps Zenyatta out a lot more than St Trinians. It's not even debateable. These are basic concepts.

Look, I'm sorry you haven't grasped these basics, but I do encourage you to bet more. The more stupid money the better.
The above identifies your points of confusion.

I recognize +EV opportunities, and St T is certainly in a good spot this weekend, as I have already indicated. Since you are out of the loop on this, I don't expect you to capitalize on the opportunity. But such is +EV. Either you get it or you don't. And I guess for this race you don't.

[Cat Thief]

I agree with you Space Monkey she sure did earn the right and she is the Queen. Of course they can all go race her, why not? She is very capable of going East and blowing them away too but why not have 18 wins and not have the jet lag

[Dahoss9698]

The above identifies your points of confusion.

I recognize +EV opportunities, and St T is certainly in a good spot this weekend, as I have already indicated. Since you are out of the loop on this, I don't expect you to capitalize on the opportunity. But such is +EV. Either you get it or you don't. And I guess for this race you don't.

St Trinians was in a lot better spot before the rabbit was entered. I recognize this. Like you said, either you get it or you don't. You don't. Nothing new here.

[Pick6]

St Trinians was in a lot better spot before the rabbit was entered. I recognize this. Like you said, either you get it or you don't. You don't. Nothing new here.
You are repeating me, and you are repeating yourself. You are adding nothing to this discussion. You have already established your point of view, and it is simply erroneous.

Typically the best way of solving stuff like this is with a prop bet. I would be willing take St T at 1c over tote odds if you were convinced that she was a bad play. This is one way for me to make money on this +EV opportunity. Of course this site does not promote prop bets so I guess you get off easy.

[gm10]

You are repeating me, and you are repeating yourself. You are adding nothing to this discussion. You have already established your point of view, and it is simply erroneous.

Typically the best way of solving stuff like this is with a prop bet. I would be willing take St T at 1c over tote odds if you were convinced that she was a bad play. This is one way for me to make money on this +EV opportunity. Of course this site does not promote prop bets so I guess you get off easy.

You are wasting your time. There is no way he will open his mind by as much as an inch. He cannot stand that Zenyatta steals the show.

[cj]

You are wasting your time. There is no way he will open his mind by as much as an inch. He cannot stand that Zenyatta steals the show.

Are you saying you agree adding a pace setter/presser hurts the closer and helps another presser?

[Dahoss9698]

You are repeating me, and you are repeating yourself. You are adding nothing to this discussion. You have already established your point of view, and it is simply erroneous.

Typically the best way of solving stuff like this is with a prop bet. I would be willing take St T at 1c over tote odds if you were convinced that she was a bad play. This is one way for me to make money on this +EV opportunity. Of course this site does not promote prop bets so I guess you get off easy.
Yes, your contribution to this thread has been outstanding. Telling us about your sister in law really helped move things along.

Where did I say St Trinians is a bad play? I wouldn't go near that race with your money. I have no opinion on the race other than I liked St Trinians before the rabbit was entered. I think she will be compromised now and won't go near the race.

[Dahoss9698]

You are wasting your time. There is no way he will open his mind by as much as an inch. He cannot stand that Zenyatta steals the show.

Gotta love this. Basically you want everyone to be as misinformed as you are and it bothers you that most aren't.

[Pick6]

Yes, your contribution to this thread has been outstanding. Telling us about your sister in law really helped move things along.

Where did I say St Trinians is a bad play? I wouldn't go near that race with your money. I have no opinion on the race other than I liked St Trinians before the rabbit was entered. I think she will be compromised now and won't go near the race.
Humor escapes you, obviously. Actually there is a bit of truth to it if you really want to improve your standing in life.

You liked St T before the "rabbit", so you don't like her now? Is that what you are saying? Can you be clear on at least this?

[Pick6]

Gotta love this. Basically you want everyone to be as misinformed as you are and it bothers you that most aren't.
No, he is just revealing the truth to those of us who stubbornly hold out some hope for you.

[letswastemoney]

Of course the Hedevar rabbit duels with Dr Fager are well remembered by any racing historian. I will not go into the merits of how entering a rabbit reduces the value of the win.

Your question of how I feel a rabbit favors a horse that prefers a fast pace, the explanation is simple: horses that cannot "relax" on the front end, are less likely to sustain their stamina later in the race, as their energy has been expended running along with other pacesetters. Generally speaking, horses who benefit most from a fast pace are those who are not expending a lot of energy on the front end.

This is basic stuff. Maybe you are mixing horses who typically prefer the front end and those who prefer a "fast pace". If a horse who prefers to run on the front end can tactically slow the pace down (i.e. avoid a "fast pace") to a manageable level, that horse should benefit.

When a pacesetter goes 1:09 and change in a route race, ALL horses near him are expending energy. Your logic on who benefits the most from a fast pace is...illogical to say the least.

[Dahoss9698]

Humor escapes you, obviously. Actually there is a bit of truth to it if you really want to improve your standing in life.

You liked St T before the "rabbit", so you don't like her now? Is that what you are saying? Can you be clear on at least this?

No I get humor. It wasn't funny.

I'm not sure how I can be more clear than I already was. Have someone read it to you slowly so you get it. Maybe one of your sister in laws students can.

[Dahoss9698]

No, he is just revealing the truth to those of us who stubbornly hold out some hope for you.

Yes, if there is one thing gm10 is known for, it's revealing the truth. This must be another "humorous" post.

He hasn't been right about anything in months.

[Pick6]

No I get humor. It wasn't funny.

I'm not sure how I can be more clear than I already was. Have someone read it to you slowly so you get it. Maybe one of your sister in laws students can.
You are repeating me and yourself again. What did I tell you about that?

If this is all you can contribute here, perhaps other endeavors would be more fruitful for you. Use your imagination, I'm sure someone at your level could think of something.

[Pick6]

Yes, if there is one thing gm10 is known for, it's revealing the truth. This must be another "humorous" post.

He hasn't been right about anything in months.
Welcome to the real world. He has 90% chance of being right on this one.

[Dahoss9698]

You are repeating me and yourself again. What did I tell you about that?

If this is all you can contribute here, perhaps other endeavors would be more fruitful for you. Use your imagination, I'm sure someone at your level could think of something.

How long until you get banned again?

[Pick6]

When a pacesetter goes 1:09 and change in a route race, ALL horses near him are expending energy. Your logic on who benefits the most from a fast pace is...illogical to say the least.
All horses are expending energy all the time. You are revelaing nothing here.

Ask a 400m runner how he obtains his best time. Obviously there is an optimal "pace" that yields his fastest fastest time. If he exerts himself more than the optimal pace early on, he will run at a worse final time. Same goes if he runs slower than his optimal early pace. Nothing earth-shattering about this.

Dr. Fager did not obviously run at his obtimal pace with Hedevar, and did not finish at his optimal time. In fact, his rate of performing below his best due to his expending of energy was worse than Damascus, which explains why Damascus outfinished him by so much.

[Dahoss9698]

Welcome to the real world. He has 90% chance of being right on this one.

Handicapping, humor and now math seem to be problem areas. Anything else?

[Pick6]

How long until you get banned again?
If you think this is adding something constructive to this thread, you have lost me completely.

Why not make some kind of prediction, or assert some kind of position that can be proven/disproven by future events? You need to elevate your standing in life to something with a bit more meaning. Take pride in your prognosticative ability!

[Pick6]

Handicapping, humor and now math seem to be problem areas. Anything else?
Fail, fail, and fail.

I advise you look in a mirror and say to yourself: "I am going to make a difference in the world today!"

Failures like your posts above and others do not follow this path.

[bisket]

i think adding a pacesetter can help a presser. having a pacesetter can increase the aggressiveness of the presser. which helps to push them to their best effort. of course it can hurt if the pacesetter goes to fast, and can lead the presser to running to fast the first 1/2. i don't see that happening with zardana though.

[letswastemoney]

At least he almost admits why Zardana is in there. And now we have confirmation on what Zardana will do.

"Zardana is a good addition to the race for Zenyatta," Shirreffs said. "Mr. Zetcher and I talked about that. Zardana would be the speed."

[cj]

At least he almost admits why Zardana is in there. And now we have confirmation on what Zardana will do.

"Zardana is a good addition to the race for Zenyatta," Shirreffs said. "Mr. Zetcher and I talked about that. Zardana would be the speed."

Don't worry, the Zenyatturds will still spin it and say she isn't in it to help Zenyatta. Of course reasonable people will realize that was the plan all along.

[cuzimahustler]

Why did they bring her back to do this? What's the point?

They must be trying for runner up HOY again. :rolleyes:
So people like you and cj can have something to bitch about.

[andymays]

So people like you and cj can have something to bitch about.


We do it so people like you can bitch about us. ;)

[letswastemoney]

They aren't taking show betting??? Booooooo. There's enough horses in the race that there should be.

[cpitt84]

zen's and ra's race should be on hrtv right?

[toussaud]

They aren't taking show betting??? Booooooo. There's enough horses in the race that there should be.



in the santa margritia there was over a million bet on z in the show pool. i wouldn't offer it either.

[letswastemoney]

in the santa margritia there was over a million bet on z in the show pool. i wouldn't offer it either.
I know that's why it would have tempting to put money to show on Zardana or St. Trinians, just in case the "unforeseen" happened.

And if Zenyatta was in the money...well most likely those other 2 will be in the money as well. So it would have been a large return bet, with little risk.

[gm10]

Are you saying you agree adding a pace setter/presser hurts the closer and helps another presser?

I think you should learn a bit about the nuances of pace. If Zardana goes quick and nobody follows, this becomes a huge negative to Zenyatta. Hollywood is not Santa Anita, and Zardana is no fleur de lis tomato can.

Anyway, it's not because you put a rabbit in the race, that you have determined the pace in the race. Aidan O'Brien tries it all the time over here, it doesn't necessarily work. It certainly didn't help against Sea The Stars in the Ebor at York.

[WinterTriangle]

that was the plan all along.

Iit's good to have a plan.

That way, you can avoid having to enter your horse in 4 different races on the same day while you come up with one.

:p

[redshift1]

If their goal is HOY, they are taking the absolute correct path. No 3YO has a chance, QR is taking his sweet time with a very light campaign, and RA is not even up to speed yet in June, and by any reasonable estimate will not even contest the big race at CD.

An undefeated campaign including win in BCC will give Z 95%+ chance of HOY.

RA will be in the running off her strong recent finishes.

[letswastemoney]

Donn Handicap + Met Mile beats Santa Margarita + Apple Blossom.

Quality Road is the leader right now, there should be no disputing that.

[redshift1]

Donn Handicap + Met Mile beats Santa Margarita + Apple Blossom.

Quality Road is the leader right now, there should be no disputing that.

No challenges for him yet but he hasn't faced any of this years three year old juggernauts ..... oh wait

[Hedevar]

No challenges for him yet but he hasn't faced any of this years three year old juggernauts ..... oh wait

What three year old juggernauts are you referring to? What challenges has Zenyatta faced this year? A tough flight from Hot Springs.

[FenceBored]

Iit's good to have a plan.

That way, you can avoid having to enter your horse in 4 different races on the same day while you come up with one.

:p

Oh, you mean like the plan to run Zardana in the Ogden Phipps. That plan. :p
Owned by Arnold Zetcher, Zardana is a 6-year-old Brazilian-bred mare by Crimson Tide. She was originally pointed to the Ogden Phipps Handficap (gr. I) at Belmont Park, but those plans changed earlier in the week, so she will take on her stablemate.
-- http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/57447/zenyatta-takes-aim-at-history-in-vanity

[andymays]

Zenyatta no sure thing this time

http://www.drf.com/news/article/113844.html

Excerpt:

"Zenyatta is the greatest mare I have seen in my lifetime, and if she beats me there is no shame in that," Mitchell said. "But my mare is sharp, and champions do get beat."

St Trinians, 7-2 second choice, is more than a flash in the pan. Imported from England, she won her first four U.S. starts, including the Grade 2 Santa Maria over Life Is Sweet in February. Mitchell ran St Trinians against males March 6 in the Big Cap to avoid Zenyatta one week later in the Grade 1 Santa Margarita Handicap.

The experiment fizzled; St Trinians finished sixth. Since then, she has worked extremely well, and the stable is on fire. Mitchell entered Friday having won with 11 of his last 18 starters.

"If you're going to run against Zenyatta, you want to do it the way things are going right now. Everything is clicking," Mitchell said.

St Trinians is 7 for 12 overall and carries nine pounds less than 129-pound highweight Zenyatta. Her new rider is Martin Garcia.

Mitchell and Garcia recognize St Trinians must open up on Zenyatta to win.
"At some point, Martin is going to say 'It's time to go.' " Mitchell said. "I don't want to be close to [Zenyatta] at the quarter pole."

Garcia galloped St Trinians 1 1/2 miles Friday morning at 5:30 before driving to Santa Anita.

[joanied]

Total guess and probably 50-1 to happen but maybe they're gonna scratch her and retire her just before first post.

If they scratch now Hollywood loses a lot of on track handle and attendance. They're also giving away bobbleheads as a promotion.

I believe Shirreffs has said in the past that Zenyatta hates Del Mar and wouldn't race there again and now he says he's gonna race there again. :confused:

All the signs are there that somethings up on this one. Especially the lackluster workouts and the less than enthusiastic interview from Mike Smith yesterday.

Just Sayin and I'm probably wrong but ........................

andy...is there someplace I can see/hear that interveiew with Mike? Or, can you state what he said (not verbatim, of course)...that worries me, if he said something negative.
Thanks

[joanied]

zen's and ra's race should be on hrtv right?

Zenyatta's race is only on TVG. The Paulick Report always has a 'where to watch' ...here ya go:

http://www.paulickreport.com/blog/weekend-stakes-where-to-watch-brought-to-you-by-kbc-horse-supplies-40/

[andymays]

andy...is there someplace I can see/hear that interveiew with Mike? Or, can you state what he said (not verbatim, of course)...that worries me, if he said something negative.
Thanks


It was on TVG and If I remember right the TVG commentators even said something to the effect that "he didn't seem too confident".

St Trinians is loaded for tomorrow and Zenyatta probably isn't. If Z wins tomorrow then good for her and I won't feel bad losing on St. Trinians.

[joanied]

It was on TVG and If I remember right the TVG commentators even said something to the effect that "he didn't seem too confident".

St Trinians is loaded for tomorrow and Zenyatta probably isn't. If Z wins tomorrow then good for her and I won't feel bad losing on St. Trinians.

I beleive the Z camp needs to fear St. T...I don't think Zardana is much of a threat for Zenny, but that other mare sure is...I like that 1 1/2 mile gallop...I think we'll see a hell of a turn of foot with her tomorrow...Mike needs to have his 'clock' tuned just right.
It's really going to be a very good race.

Thanks, andy.

[andymays]

Roger Stein is giving away Zenyatta bobbleheads today and tomorrow for correct answers to his trivia questions.

http://www.am830klaa.com/index.htm

Live show 8:00 am pst.

You have no shot to win one if you listen to the archived show. :eek: :rolleyes: :D

[bisket]

mike smith:
"What's amazing about this race is that I think she needed the race," Smith said. "I think she had an easy race first time out and she got a really easy race at Oaklawn. I think this will put her back to the [form of the Breeders' Cup] Classic and maybe better, I hope. I think this race will really move her forward
from drf
http://drf.com/news/article/113885.html

[v j stauffer]

Roger Stein is giving away Zenyatta bobbleheads today and tomorrow for correct answers to his trivia questions.

http://www.am830klaa.com/index.htm

Live show 8:00 am pst.

You have no shot to win one if you listen to the archived show. :eek: :rolleyes: :D

I wouldn't listen if he was giving away the actual Zenyatta.

[Dahoss9698]

I wouldn't listen if he was giving away the actual Zenyatta.

After todays call I know the feeling. Thank you for reuniting me with an old friend.....the mute button.

[v j stauffer]

After todays call I know the feeling. Thank you for reuniting me with an old friend.....the mute button.

Thanks for lis... er muting.

[Stillriledup]

Thanks for lis... er muting.

That was a fantastic call Vic. You have to feel like one of the luckiest guys in the world...you got PAID to watch and call that race and your voice will go down in history, on these Zenyatta calls for all time. 20 years from now people will still be watching Z's races on youtube and your voice will be coming out of their computers into their homes. Well, Dahosses home will be quiet, but i know mine won't.

ZENYATTA YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!

[thaskalos]

GREAT CALL VIC! "Stamp this day in your minds and your hearts..." Classic! :ThmbUp:

[Edward DeVere]

mike smith:
I think this race will really move her forward


Super! Surely this means that Shirreffs will be taking dead aim in a few weeks at Rail Trip.

Drop some weight, no shipping, both horses equally rested.

It'll be fun. I promise.

[letswastemoney]

Super! Surely this means that Shirreffs will be taking dead aim in a few weeks at Rail Trip.

Drop some weight, no shipping, both horses equally rested.

It'll be fun. I promise.In other news, hell has frozen over

[Stillriledup]

In other news, hell has frozen over

Exactly.

[Mineshaft]

They could change their plans. If they don't, they should be embarrassed. Run the horse at Saratoga. It would be great for racing and the fans in the east who will only get one chance to see her run.





Your a moron to say they should be embarrassed. You should be embarrassed for saying such a dumb statement

[Grits]

In other news, hell has frozen over


:lol: LOLOLOLOLOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL:lol:

Good one!

(Mineshaft, the namecalling seriously elevates your posts, makes your points that much more emphatic. Honestly.)

[GaryG]

Your a moron Is this not a classic post?

[Grits]

Is this not a classic post?

Gary, I was kind; I didn't wanna tell him that part.:lol:

[Mineshaft]

what nobody likes the word moron?

[BluegrassProf]

Badoom-crash!

:D

luv it.

[tzipi]

what nobody likes the word moron?

Go read your original "moron" post more carefully.

[CincyHorseplayer]

Who here is in California???


Well folks it's pretty much a bore fest outside those lines.

I meant morons.Morons is the trend here right???

You morons out there in Califonia don't realize that Zenyatta is a borefest elsewhere!!:lol: