want an honest assessment?

[46zilzal]

http://therail.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/06/06/reasons-for-the-decline-of-horse-racing/#more-8621

why it is a dying game.

[Greyfox]

46zil Thank you for posting that article. :ThmbUp:
Lots of food for thought there.
The author must have tapped into this board or similar at some time, albeit he does cover other bases such as suburbanization as well.
His knock against announcers is unfair in my opinion.
His knock on the detention barn is somewhat out of step with the need for the public to perceive a fair game.
I like the Breeders' Cup, although he seems to feel it has wrecked Belmont fields.
Maybe so, but if good horses aren't racing there, they're likely prepping elsewhere.

[thaskalos]

"Boxing in reality is alot like horseracing"...and this man asks to be taken seriously...

[Figman]

The author, Bennett Liebman, used to be a member of the New York State Racing and Wagerng Board. Bennett knows his way around a horse and has been a racing fan for many years both before and after his State service. But above all, he is a clear thinker!

[Greyfox]

"Boxing in reality is alot like horseracing"...and this man asks to be taken seriously...

You've taken the comment out of context.
It is like horse racing in the sense that interest in it peaked years ago.

[rwwupl]

http://therail.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/06/06/reasons-for-the-decline-of-horse-racing/#more-8621

why it is a dying game.


A fine assessment of where we are and why by Bennett Liebman who knows a lot about our game.

He took one of the points (and some others) I have been making about spending too much money on marketing for the young person.

Thanks to Bennett Liebman...

A Nonissue:

The Age of the Patrons. It is said frequently that racing has been unable to attract the computer gage people: Generation X or Y. Why aren’t there younger faces in the crowd like there are at Saratoga or Del Mar? The short answer is that horse racing has always appealed to an older demographic. For decades, people have been complaining that there are no young fans at the tracks. The fact is there almost never were any young fans at the track. Horse racing is not likely to appeal to Gen Y. Horse racing’s problem is that baby boomers — who should now be at the right age to go to the track — are not going to the track. There are more senior citizens in the U.S. than ever before. There will be even more in the next two decades. Racing’s problem is that they’re going to casinos and playing the lottery instead of going to the track.

Racing has never been a young person’s sport. The problem is why the baby boomers are not going to the track and what can be done to get baby boomers to go there.

Bennett Liebman is the Executive Director of the Government Law Center at Albany Law School and a member of the board of directors of the New York Racing Association.

[thaskalos]

You've taken the comment out of context.
It is like horse racing in the sense that interest in it peaked years ago. " Boxing in reality is alot like horse racing. It's an individual(?) sport regulated largely on a state level. Now, nobody cares about normal individual matches. The club fight gyms and the club fighters have disappeared, and the public is only interested in the big championship events. It's alot like horse racing where there is tremendous interest in the Triple Crown, but little interest thereafter.(?)"

[Robert Goren]

People use to follow horses, not just the stars but any horse that caught their eye. it could have been a bottom claimer. Now day the horses run so seldom that is not possible. It maybe a small thing but things like this add up.

[joanied]

I thought the article a very good one...like the way he numbers each 'point'...he hits every one right on the ol' head.
trouble is...we KNOW what's wrong...'they' just don't seem willing to fix the problems. You can tell someone all day long about what the problem is, but until they are willing to admit to the problem(s), nothing is gonna ever get fixed.

[thaskalos]

The man may be knowledgeable, but he still fails to realize that horse racing is, above all, a GAMBLING game. The reason the sport is failing is not because there is a shortage of people like "Vin Scully, Red Barber, Mel Allen, Keith Jackson, John Madden, Marv Albert or...Bud Collins."

Horse racing should have DOZENS of Danica Patricks?? I didn't know that all we have been reduced to doing now...is sit around sharing "recollections of Julie Krone who retired six and a half years ago"...?

[beertapper]

good blog post..:ThmbUp:

one point I found to be very valid, and the opposite of what some racing mgmt believe in:

The Age of the Patrons....... There are more senior citizens in the U.S. than ever before. There will be even more in the next two decades.

It's not about attracting youth to the game. It's about on getting old racegoers and new grey hairs into it. They're going to be the largest segment of the population here, and likely the ones with the deepest pockets.

[Greyfox]

" Boxing in reality is alot like horse racing. It's an individual(?) sport regulated largely on a state level. Now, nobody cares about normal individual matches. The club fight gyms and the club fighters have disappeared, and the public is only interested in the big championship events. It's alot like horse racing where there is tremendous interest in the Triple Crown, but little interest thereafter.(?)"


Thaskalos in Post # 3 your original comment was:
"Boxing in reality is alot like horseracing"...and this man asks to be taken seriously...

Why wouldn't we take him seriously?
I'm not sure what you don't understand. He expects you to have the ability to abstract and see their commonalities.
1. Both are regulated at the state level.
2. There is little general interest in "normal" individual matches.
3. The public is only interested in big championships.
4. Interest diminishes immensely after big events.

He's simply stating that the general public's interest in both sports peaked years ago. In that way the two sports are alike. He doesn't expect you to look at a boxing match and see a horse race. (Although I went to the jockey's room once and saw a boxing match break out.)

[thaskalos]

Thaskalos in Post # 3 your original comment was:
"Boxing in reality is alot like horseracing"...and this man asks to be taken seriously...

Why wouldn't we take him seriously?
I'm not sure what you don't understand. He expects you to have the ability to abstract and see their commonalities.
1. Both are regulated at the state level.
2. There is little general interest in "normal" individual matches.
3. The public is only interested in big championships.
4. Interest diminishes immensely after big events.

He's simply stating that the general public's interest in both sports peaked years ago. In that way the two sports are alike. He doesn't expect you to look at a boxing match and see a horse race. (Although I went to the jockey's room once and saw a boxing match break out.) Greyfox...I am not looking for an argument, and I happen to value your opinion. Like I said previously, the man is knowledgeable, but IMO, he misses the point.

The lottery did not play a major role in our sport's decline...horseplayers have no problem distinguishing between "mindless" games and "beatable" games.

Nor is a prominent "voice", like Vin Scully, needed to "make the sport move quickly".

He says: "at least tennis had Bud Collins." We don't need Bud Collins. There is no room in our sport for fancy rhetoric by our announcers...it moves too fast. When announcers try to get creative, they often mess up - like Tom Durkin did in the Belmont.

Yes, I agree...we don't need the young people in this game. I myself started a post on that very topic not long ago.

He emphasizes that people have moved to the suburbs, and stopped going to the track. Does that explain why they stopped playing the game altogether?

Like you, I too love this game, and I want to see it prosper. The reason people have stopped playing is because it has become a "bad gamble" as far as gambling games go. The drugs and the take-out have made it unappealling to all gamblers...whether they be horseplayers or not.

I say fix the problems, and forget marketing gimmicks like..."dozens of Danica Patricks."

[Greyfox]

Fair enough, Thaskalos. :ThmbUp:
Although a few more Chantal's wouldn't hurt the image.

[jonnielu]

http://therail.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/06/06/reasons-for-the-decline-of-horse-racing/#more-8621

why it is a dying game.

I believe that this one is big:


13. The Knowledge Base of Racing. As much as we might enjoy the art and/or skill of handicapping, the learning curve for learning how to play the horses is simply too steep. (Again, there‘s no learning curve with a slot machine.) We have never developed a simple way for people to bet the horses with a modicum of skill. We have never developed a racing program which works to attract newcomers to the sport. We have made the act of placing a knowledgeable bet too hard.


Even the author reinforces the negative message without realizing it by proposing that you should learn handicapping to play horses. There is a lot of playing available to a lot of people without learning a drop of handicapping.

Then nobody in racing is willing to tell the truth about learning to play horses. Which is that you would probably learn more about horse racing faster by boxing the top 3 ML in the exacta all day, then you could by reading 6 handicapping books.

jdl

[thaskalos]

Fair enough, Thaskalos. :ThmbUp:
Although a few more Chantal's wouldn't hurt the image. We agree there...

[toetoe]

Let's review the sportkilling points of Herr Love Man's disquisition:



1) Competition from other gambling forms.

Not a shocking news development. :sleeping: .


2)


3) [I]The suburbs have coopted all the customers.

I disagree. Los Angeles is all suburbs and no urbs, Herr Love Man having smoked them up, maybe ? :cool: .


4) and (6) [I]Perception.

I disagree that it matters more than a halfwhit. Make a case; I will listen --- perceive, even. ;) .


5) Drugs.

Okay, old news again. Are they destroying the game ? Nah.


7) Governments propping up racetracks.

Well, that would not kill the game --- it would keep it on life support. That is a governance issue. While we're at it, let's get all the politicians out of racing. You know, awarding dates, demanding usurious takeout, etc.


8) Television.

It seems the television market has been chopped to smithereens. Okay, let's get the biggest chunks possible, but let's not say that lack of television coverage is killing our sport.


9) Takeout.

I guess we all agree that this is the biggest dagger.


10) Marketing.

I'm not sold that any of the ads I hear are good for anything but reminder value. That said, "dozens of Danica Patric's" ... :confused: . Huh ?


11) Infrequency of starts.

Okay, the infrequency leads to short fields. I recommend fewer races on fewer days. Not a sportkiller.


12) The lack of a centralized home wagering system.

Maddening as hell, but not a sportkiller.


13) The knowledge base.

He's way out in left field on this point. Innumerable knowledge-based wagering celebrants opining on other sports know jackbootycrap, and those sports survive nicely. Another overstated molehill.


14) Perception based on 1970-era Off-Track Betting parlors.

That's 30 to 40 years ago, Einstein. The perceptors were not even alive back then. :faint: .



Let's focus upon the two or three of his points that matter at all, and maybe we'll get the sport out of the I.C.U. and --- dare I sya it ? --- all the way to self-sufficiency.

[kenwoodall2]

No central authority and promotion office to take racxing in needed directions, so holes left in racing are filled by other things. That hapened in WW2, when lotterys and indian casinos came in, when payouts gor too cheap due to front speed. And the dude keeps writing "PERCEPTION", which segmented racing allows. As examples, football put in replays, baseball and WWE stopped the steroid bad PR; NBA has all players dressing like preppies instead of gangstas.

[Steve R]

Forget lists of why racing is in decline. While many of the items may indeed be true, they are not the ultimate reason racing has lost its appeal. IMO American culture and values have evolved over the years and the changes have simply left the game behind. Once upon a time live drama topped the television ratings. Today it is "reality TV" and formulaic series. Once upon a time people socialized face-to-face. Today socialization is distant and quite often anonymous. It's a different world and Thoroughbred racing had its time and its time has passed. Surely it will survive at a reduced level, still attracting those drawn to horses and a form of gambling that offers intellectual stimulation and challenge. But the numbers are and will continue to decrease. Things like reduced takeout matter only to today's players and have nothing to do with keeping new players away. The quality of TV coverage is irrelevant if the viewer prefers to watch college football or "ultimate fighting". Marketing won't change the trends because everyone already knows if racing exists in their area and they surely know about the Triple Crown. NASCAR can market itself all it likes. I'm just not interested. That's apparently the case with the general public vis-a-vis the Breeders' Cup. People are just not interested. I think the solution is a dramatic streamlining of the game to at least sustain demand by limiting supply. Lots of people will have to change careers, but that's a consequence of societal development. Sixty years ago there were over 400,000 miners working in the US. Today there are only about 70,000. I've been following racing for over 50 years since I was a child and my dad used to take me with him to watch the harness races at Yonkers. I've been a participant in the industry for 30 years and had involvement with many top class runners. Yet even I find the game less compelling than I once did. I haven't lost my interest in the horses. I owned horses for close to 40 years, hands on. But time moves ahead and not everything moves along with it.

[thaskalos]

Forget lists of why racing is in decline. While many of the items may indeed be true, they are not the ultimate reason racing has lost its appeal. IMO American culture and values have evolved over the years and the changes have simply left the game behind. Once upon a time live drama topped the television ratings. Today it is "reality TV" and formulaic series. Once upon a time people socialized face-to-face. Today socialization is distant and quite often anonymous. It's a different world and Thoroughbred racing had its time and its time has passed. Surely it will survive at a reduced level, still attracting those drawn to horses and a form of gambling that offers intellectual stimulation and challenge. But the numbers are and will continue to decrease. Things like reduced takeout matter only to today's players and have nothing to do with keeping new players away. The quality of TV coverage is irrelevant if the viewer prefers to watch college football or "ultimate fighting". Marketing won't change the trends because everyone already knows if racing exists in their area and they surely know about the Triple Crown. NASCAR can market itself all it likes. I'm just not interested. That's apparently the case with the general public vis-a-vis the Breeders' Cup. People are just not interested. I think the solution is a dramatic streamlining of the game to at least sustain demand by limiting supply. Lots of people will have to change careers, but that's a consequence of societal development. Sixty years ago there were over 400,000 miners working in the US. Today there are only about 70,000. I've been following racing for over 50 years since I was a child and my dad used to take me with him to watch the harness races at Yonkers. I've been a participant in the industry for 30 years and had involvement with many top class runners. Yet even I find the game less compelling than I once did. I haven't lost my interest in the horses. I owned horses for close to 40 years, hands on. But time moves ahead and not everything moves along with it. Steve...if it was within my power...I would nominate you for the position of racing czar! :ThmbUp:

[rwwupl]

various excerpts from Steve R

I hope this does not offend you, but I have a different take than you.

Forget lists of why racing is in decline. While many of the items may indeed be true, they are not the ultimate reason racing has lost its appeal. IMO American culture and values have evolved over the years and the changes have simply left the game behind.

It's a different world and Thoroughbred racing had its time and its time has passed. Surely it will survive at a reduced level, still attracting those drawn to horses and a form of gambling that offers intellectual stimulation and challenge. But the numbers are and will continue to decrease. Things like reduced takeout matter only to today's players and have nothing to do with keeping new players away.

Marketing won't change the trends because everyone already knows if racing exists in their area and they surely know about the Triple Crown. NASCAR can market itself all it likes. I'm just not interested. That's apparently the case with the general public vis-a-vis the Breeders' Cup. People are just not interested.

I think the solution is a dramatic streamlining of the game to at least sustain demand by limiting supply. Lots of people will have to change careers, but that's a consequence of societal development. Sixty years ago there were over 400,000 miners working in the US. Today there are only about 70,000.

I've been following racing for over 50 years since I was a child and my dad used to take me with him to watch the harness races at Yonkers. I've been a participant in the industry for 30 years and had involvement with many top class runners. Yet even I find the game less compelling than I once did. I haven't lost my interest in the horses. I owned horses for close to 40 years, hands on. But time moves ahead and not everything moves along with it.


Steve R,

Sorry that you are in such a "down" mood... I think it happens to all of us on occasion.

Yes Racing is in decline, but what you are seeing are people with their lists who are making their effort to identify the problems with the idea that change may make things better.

Your post makes it seem like nothing can be done to correct a poor situation and you seem to be willing to throw in your towel in defeat... I am surprised that you have that attitude towards a game that has given you a lot in times past.

Take out has everything to do with our game being competitive with other forms of gambling or not. We are currently not competitive, so we are losing the new players as well as long time players, the entire foundation of our game rests on the cost of the customers bets, as they fuel purses, allow Owners to purchase horses to run for them,and supply revenue to the tracks for administration. Economics will bring things into line sooner or later, and when the managers accept that they must compete, we will compete, and we will grow the fan base again...creating the revenue that has been lost to others.

Marketing in the opinion of some of us has not done a good job at all, keying on "Go Baby Go", "Concerts" "Friday Night Racing" and pouring money to attract "young People" when racing has a sustained history of attracting the mature fan (Did you see Bennett Liebman blurb on this recently). We have been losing our natural fan base because they have found other forms of gambling have offered a better deal... but if we set out to be competitive, they can be won back..because they love our game first...we chased them away.

We need people like you to be a part of the solution,and give more than ...O. K. ,I give up and "Time marches on"

[Igeteven]

The N.Y. Times article is correct, however things can be fixed with management cooperation. At this point, it's too expensive to run a race track.

The take out is high, IMO, it will never come down at any major race track, second class tracks that are small can afford it, but the big tracks, no.


Yes we are seeing a dying sport, however it can be fixed with simple additions to the problem, we need a national office that commands and issues rules that must be followed.

Yes it can be fixed, but we will never see it in our life time. Problems will remain while each State is independent of each other.


As to the take out, this I can say to the people who complain, that the take out is way to high.

Well people , don't play. Go to other types of sport betting. Again, I know a few people who will still play no matter what if the take out was 50 percent.


So good luck, keep playing and keep playing the high take out :D

Me, I will still continue to play no matter what, that take out doesn't mean a damn thing to me, I play for enjoyment, so that's it.

[thaskalos]

various excerpts from Steve R

I hope this does not offend you, but I have a different take than you.




Steve R,

Sorry that you are in such a "down" mood... I think it happens to all of us on occasion.

Yes Racing is in decline, but what you are seeing are people with their lists who are making their effort to identify the problems with the idea that change may make things better.

Your post makes it seem like nothing can be done to correct a poor situation and you seem to be willing to throw in your towel in defeat... I am surprised that you have that attitude towards a game that has given you a lot in times past.

Take out has everything to do with our game being competitive with other forms of gambling or not. We are currently not competitive, so we are losing the new players as well as long time players, the entire foundation of our game rests on the cost of the customers bets, as they fuel purses, allow Owners to purchase horses to run for them,and supply revenue to the tracks for administration. Economics will bring things into line sooner or later, and when the managers accept that they must compete, we will compete, and we will grow the fan base again...creating the revenue that has been lost to others.

Marketing in the opinion of some of us has not done a good job at all, keying on "Go Baby Go", "Concerts" "Friday Night Racing" and pouring money to attract "young People" when racing has a sustained history of attracting the mature fan (Did you see Bennett Liebman blurb on this recently). We have been losing our natural fan base because they have found other forms of gambling have offered a better deal... but if we set out to be competitive, they can be won back..because they love our game first...we chased them away.

We need people like you to be a part of the solution,and give more than ...O. K. ,I give up and "Time marches on" Since when is horse racing OUR game? Do you think that the game's "insiders" consider this to be "the horseplayer's game"?

They treat us like gambling addicts, and every single change they implement is designed to line THEIR pockets alone. If the change favors the player, it never comes to fruition. Did the horseplayer see ONE PENNY of the full-card simulcast money? How about one penny of the slot money?

Just look at the things we horseplayers find to celebrate about. Pinnacle reduced the take-out on the exactas from 27% to 20%. THIS IS PROGRESS?

Do you honestly think that the take-out will ever be reduced to an acceptable level...from the player's point of view?

The horseplayer has been shot in the chest and is bleeding profusely...and the racing "industry" is rushing to his rescue...band-aid in hand...

[Steve R]

various excerpts from Steve R

I hope this does not offend you, but I have a different take than you.




Steve R,

Sorry that you are in such a "down" mood... I think it happens to all of us on occasion.

Yes Racing is in decline, but what you are seeing are people with their lists who are making their effort to identify the problems with the idea that change may make things better.

Your post makes it seem like nothing can be done to correct a poor situation and you seem to be willing to throw in your towel in defeat... I am surprised that you have that attitude towards a game that has given you a lot in times past.

Take out has everything to do with our game being competitive with other forms of gambling or not. We are currently not competitive, so we are losing the new players as well as long time players, the entire foundation of our game rests on the cost of the customers bets, as they fuel purses, allow Owners to purchase horses to run for them,and supply revenue to the tracks for administration. Economics will bring things into line sooner or later, and when the managers accept that they must compete, we will compete, and we will grow the fan base again...creating the revenue that has been lost to others.

Marketing in the opinion of some of us has not done a good job at all, keying on "Go Baby Go", "Concerts" "Friday Night Racing" and pouring money to attract "young People" when racing has a sustained history of attracting the mature fan (Did you see Bennett Liebman blurb on this recently). We have been losing our natural fan base because they have found other forms of gambling have offered a better deal... but if we set out to be competitive, they can be won back..because they love our game first...we chased them away.

We need people like you to be a part of the solution,and give more than ...O. K. ,I give up and "Time marches on"
I'm not in a "down" mood at all and I actually suggested a way of preserving the best of what racing has to offer - reduce supply to sustain demand. At the same time, I have made what I believe is a realistic assessment of why racing appeals to fewer and fewer people over time. If you don't accept that cultural evolution supersedes other factors, that's fine. But I believe it's naive to think that takeout reduction will induce enough new players to restore the game's glory days. The enormously steep learning curve is more than enough to keep people away except for the occasional social outing. From an inside-the-industry perspective, almost all individual owners (i.e., apart from major breeding farms) lose money, and in a declining economic environment (which I believe will be very long term) there won't be as many folks willing to take the risks. Beyond that, in a world of iPhones, iPads and Facebook, the general interest in horses among the broad population is fading and, frankly, if you don't care about horses as a priority, you won't stay with it because the game is just too hard. In the time of Seabiscuit and War Admiral, when racing was preeminent, horses were still in the American consciousness, not that many years removed from days of the horse and buggy. Today that awareness is non-existent unless you are very old. Also, in a world of ever-increasing attention deficit, a day at the races no longer has enough action for most people. And if you think a significant number of new participants are going to play dozens of simulcast races day in and day out to keep their adrenalin flowing, I would disagree.

Racing is a great game, only for fewer and fewer people who have found, for themselves and their interests, other great games that are more attractive for any number of reasons. I have no issue with attempted solutions to forestall racing's demise. I jut happen to think that they are solutions to problems not at the root of the issue.

[rwwupl]

Since when is horse racing OUR game? Do you think that the game's "insiders" consider this to be "the horseplayer's game"?

They treat us like gambling addicts, and every single change they implement is designed to line THEIR pockets alone. If the change favors the player, it never comes to fruition. Did the horseplayer see ONE PENNY of the full-card simulcast money? How about one penny of the slot money?

Just look at the things we horseplayers find to celebrate about. Pinnacle reduced the take-out on the exactas from 27% to 20%. THIS IS PROGRESS?

Do you honestly think that the take-out will ever be reduced to an acceptable level...from the player's point of view?

The horseplayer has been shot in the chest and is bleeding profusely...and the racing "industry" is rushing to his rescue...band-aid in hand...

When a horseplayer is talking to a horse owner about things in racing, I think it is quite normal to talk in terms of "our game"

Please do not mis interpret that to mean(as you have) that I think that it is the Horse players game...you and I both know that is far from the truth. If you would read the Pinnacle thread on this you would see I made a similar point that you are making now.

I have been a horse player all my life and have taken the abuse of many people because of it... So I have become a HANA officer to try to improve the position of horse players everywhere, and HANA has made a lot of progress...and there will be a lot more.

And yes, I believe in this game and yes I know horse racing will come into the real world of economic competition and do a lot better than they are doing now.

I understand how horse players feel, but stop bitching and dumping on those who are working for you and join us.

If there is something I can do for you ,I will give it my best effort...

roger@hanaweb.org

[rwwupl]

I will save you the trouble of looking post #3 up on the Pinnacle Thread.


rwwupl
Registered User




Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 520
vCash: 400 I must admit, that I do not even know where Pinnacle Race Track is. It seems that the reality of economics has been brought to their attention. I hope the point is not lost on the beancounters who run our tracks.

I am pleased that they are seeing fit to lower the take from 27%to 20%, I'm sure just to help out the fans. But wait... 20%?

Thats like going from obscene to just maximum.. but I guess we should be thankful for anything.

Any Racetrack that is in financial trouble and does not want to compete with other forms of gambling in terms of cost of the bet does not deserve to survive or have my support.

The People love Horse Racing... Give us our game back.

Any other Race Track Managers listening?

[Black Ruby]

Since when is horse racing OUR game? Do you think that the game's "insiders" consider this to be "the horseplayer's game"?

They treat us like gambling addicts, and every single change they implement is designed to line THEIR pockets alone. If the change favors the player, it never comes to fruition. Did the horseplayer see ONE PENNY of the full-card simulcast money? How about one penny of the slot money?

Just look at the things we horseplayers find to celebrate about. Pinnacle reduced the take-out on the exactas from 27% to 20%. THIS IS PROGRESS?

Do you honestly think that the take-out will ever be reduced to an acceptable level...from the player's point of view?

The horseplayer has been shot in the chest and is bleeding profusely...and the racing "industry" is rushing to his rescue...band-aid in hand...


My sentiments exactly. Racing has too much of a good old boy network, those of us who support it are outsiders. Horseplayers don't even get an injury report, how are we to know if a horse has been off just for a break or because of injury or correction of a physical problem. It's not even noted in the PP's when a horse was gelded. Or a change in type of blinkers, etc etc.

There's a lot to know, and too much info that isn't provided.

Outside of that, how many of you have your leisure suits and heavy gold chains ready for "Disco at the Downs" Friday night? I wonder if the first 5000 people through the gates get a coupon for a qualude, aka "disco biscuit"?

[Robert Goren]

If the takeout doesn't come down substantially and they continue to pursue outside sources of income for their purses, sooner or later the race for practically purposes become non betting races. Places like PID are example of what is to come. Is that what anyone wants for this Sport/Game?

[rwwupl]

exerpt:

Black Ruby]My sentiments exactly. Racing has too much of a good old boy network, those of us who support it are outsiders. Horseplayers don't even get an injury report, how are we to know if a horse has been off just for a break or because of injury or correction of a physical problem. It's not even noted in the PP's when a horse was gelded. Or a change in type of blinkers, etc etc.
There's a lot to know, and too much info that isn't provided. -----------------------------------------------------------------

You are a keen observer of the obvious. You know how to complain. May I assume you are not winning? It is easy to find reasons for losing... and it is other people who have not given you what you need, right?

In California ,most of what you say is unavailable, is available,but maybe not where you are looking...try the program for Blinkers on/off and Gelding information or some other sources. The reason for a horses layoff is more difficult... but the Vets list is available.


If your home track is in California,e-mail me at roger@hanaweb.org and I will attempt to help you with what you need... and if it is not available and there is a demand for it...we will get the problem to the right source and get something done.

If you are serious and your home track is not in California,contact the Track or its Regulators and tell them what you need...but wait...are you a member of HANA? If not, please join us, and we will be glad to act in your behalf. HANA is full of "Good old Boys" willing to help .

[Stevie Belmont]

The NY Times comes out with this an anti-racing article every so often...

[rwwupl]

If the takeout doesn't come down substantially and they continue to pursue outside sources of income for their purses, sooner or later the race for practically purposes become non betting races. Places like PID are example of what is to come. Is that what anyone wants for this Sport/Game?

Robert Goren,

I agree. Expect many changes,we can not tell the future but major changes are at hand...hope we can compete with other forms of gambling, sooner or later ,we must.

[rwwupl]

The NY Times comes out with this an anti-racing article every so often...


Thanks for the GREAT pictures!

[slewis]

Mr Liebman, who I used to have enormous respect for, has been spending too much time with his buddies on the NYRA board and they've brainwashed him.

I don't believe for one second that this sport cannot have appeal to generation Y.... They just haven't been marketed and exposed to the sport properly.


I'll give you the perfect example that is often used by "experts" and was used my Mr. Liebman in his article....that of the comparision between horse racing and BOXING.... Problem is...it holds no water.

Boxing has been REPLACED by the UFC...to which their is a huge audience.

Young people LOVE the UFC and are training in Mixed Martial Arts academies across the country. The UFC is just has heavily regulated on state levels as Boxing...and the state(s) are not the problem, Mr. Liebman....

The problem with Horse Racing, like Boxing, Mr. Liebman..are the folks RUNNING it..controlling it...they are the dinosaurs!

DON KING RUINED BOXING....he controlled it...and didn't stage the fights people wanted to see....it was all about control and MONEY...and the sport grew boring and died.

Then the UFC came along and fighters fought for the love of what they do, not for what their promoters and managers demand of them...

Dana White, pres of the UFC was eventually able to force the corruption and stranglehold Boxing promoters had on the state athletic commissions and give the people what they want to see... fighting with people who want to fight....and the sport is huge and growing exponentially.

So the next time you read a post of me bashing NYRA for their (and other industry leaders) inability to innovate and market the sport to young people, just call it another Slewis "rant"...but remember this comparison to the UFC vs Boxing...when everyone thought the fight game was dead.
I refuse to think racing is dead and think it can always appeal to a large audience of all ages.... And like myself and friends once were, young people are the future horse owners, and horse owners (and gamblers) are an intrigual part of the survival of the sport.
As for Mr. Liebman, He should resign his post...he is a sell out since appointed to the NYRA board representing State Interests ......He does a much better job at Albany Law school...

[shouldacoulda]

What hasn't been on the decline in this country? The way I see it if the economy keeps going this way, people will (mainly baby boomers) be trying to subsidize their "retirement". Go to any casino after the 4th of the month and you will see "the blue hairs" flushing their social security checks down the one arm bandit. The ultimate sucker play at the casino.

If the racing industry could pull it's head from it's posterior, they would promote going to the track and provide a better environment for going. When I was at Belmont for the stakes (this year and last) I was shocked that they let the garbage pails spill over like a volcano. They had all these workers going around with a broom and a pan but never kept up with the garbage pails. They only had all day to keep up with it. I didn't see the pails emptied once and I was on the clubhouse side. I think that the lack of patrons attending the tracks is hurting them but their lack of enhancing the patrons experience is the underlying cause.

The political games with Aqueduct is nothing short of shameful. If New Jersey beats them to the punch it will be another missed opportunity for New York and New York racing. If NYC OTB can't operate profitably then adios. They don't run it like a business because no business could survive being that top heavy in the real world. I support NY horse racing but resent subsidizing a bunch of lard a$$es that just leach off the system

[Stevie Belmont]

Thanks--the pictures came out pretty good this time around.



Thanks for the GREAT pictures!

[rwwupl]

Excerpts from Slewis,above:

I don't believe for one second that this sport cannot have appeal to generation Y.... They just haven't been marketed and exposed to the sport properly.

After 20 years of marketing to generation Y,Friday night racing,Concerts,$1 beer... and no results, what would you suggest marketing do that is different? Doing the same thing and expecting a different result is not smart.
For review, this is what Liebman said:

A Nonissue:

The Age of the Patrons. It is said frequently that racing has been unable to attract the computer gage people: Generation X or Y. Why aren’t there younger faces in the crowd like there are at Saratoga or Del Mar? The short answer is that horse racing has always appealed to an older demographic. For decades, people have been complaining that there are no young fans at the tracks. The fact is there almost never were any young fans at the track. Horse racing is not likely to appeal to Gen Y. Horse racing’s problem is that baby boomers — who should now be at the right age to go to the track — are not going to the track. There are more senior citizens in the U.S. than ever before. There will be even more in the next two decades. Racing’s problem is that they’re going to casinos and playing the lottery instead of going to the track.

Racing has never been a young person’s sport. The problem is why the baby boomers are not going to the track and what can be done to get baby boomers to go there.


The problem with Horse Racing, like Boxing, Mr. Liebman..are the folks RUNNING it..controlling it...they are the dinosaurs!

I think some new blood would be wise,too

I refuse to think racing is dead and think it can always appeal to a large audience of all ages....

Yes, of course, right on.


As for Mr. Liebman, He should resign his post...he is a sell out since appointed to the NYRA board representing State Interests ......He does a much better job at Albany Law school

Well, lets put you in the "undecided" category. :)

[Robert Goren]

Mr Liebman, who I used to have enormous respect for, has been spending too much time with his buddies on the NYRA board and they've brainwashed him.

I don't believe for one second that this sport cannot have appeal to generation Y.... They just haven't been marketed and exposed to the sport properly.


I'll give you the perfect example that is often used by "experts" and was used my Mr. Liebman in his article....that of the comparision between horse racing and BOXING.... Problem is...it holds no water.

Boxing has been REPLACED by the UFC...to which their is a huge audience.

Young people LOVE the UFC and are training in Mixed Martial Arts academies across the country. The UFC is just has heavily regulated on state levels as Boxing...and the state(s) are not the problem, Mr. Liebman....

The problem with Horse Racing, like Boxing, Mr. Liebman..are the folks RUNNING it..controlling it...they are the dinosaurs!

DON KING RUINED BOXING....he controlled it...and didn't stage the fights people wanted to see....it was all about control and MONEY...and the sport grew boring and died.

Then the UFC came along and fighters fought for the love of what they do, not for what their promoters and managers demand of them...

Dana White, pres of the UFC was eventually able to force the corruption and stranglehold Boxing promoters had on the state athletic commissions and give the people what they want to see... fighting with people who want to fight....and the sport is huge and growing exponentially.

So the next time you read a post of me bashing NYRA for their (and other industry leaders) inability to innovate and market the sport to young people, just call it another Slewis "rant"...but remember this comparison to the UFC vs Boxing...when everyone thought the fight game was dead.
I refuse to think racing is dead and think it can always appeal to a large audience of all ages.... And like myself and friends once were, young people are the future horse owners, and horse owners (and gamblers) are an intrigual part of the survival of the sport.
As for Mr. Liebman, He should resign his post...he is a sell out since appointed to the NYRA board representing State Interests ......He does a much better job at Albany Law school...As big as the UFC is, It doesn't even begin to approach boxing in the forties and fifties. There were very few men back then who did not know the heavyweight champion was. I really doubt if 1 in 10 could tell you the UFC champ is, I know I could not.

[joanied]

Stevie B...Thanks so much for the outstanding photos of Belmont Day...every one was fun to see...I loved to see the paddock jammed before the Belmont...I thought Proviso is simply a gorgeous filly...they didn't have betting windows or the Pond when I was working there...the 'Back Yard' is something new to me...loved the guy with the Bud...hope it was Bud Lite :D ...glad to know they served Budweiser...we grow malt barley for them!
:) Thanks

[elhelmete]

I tell you what, if horseracing could siphon off some of the TIME and MONEY spent by the drones who are addicted to Fantasy Football every year...now THAT would make a difference, IMHO. Every fall you read some fluff news piece of how many millions of Americans spend xxxxxxxxxxx hours and yyyyyyyyy dollars on FF leagues and stuff. It's interesting too that MLB and the NFL (I think) tried to control the use of their public player/game data by other parties and IIRC failed in that attempt.

I can say my average employee/friend here spends maybe $20-200 a week on FF crap (sorry, I know my bias is showing) and some spend upwards of $20K a season.

With free PP data (at least basic) and easy online ADW access, I can see this crowd really getting into it. Not that my one little story makes a difference, but I can say that I got three hard-core FF aficionados to open TVG accounts and we play all day as a background to our work.

[shouldacoulda]

I can say that I got three hard-core FF aficionados to open TVG accounts and we play all day as a background to our work.

I want to work where you work :ThmbUp:

[Robert Goren]

I tell you what, if horseracing could siphon off some of the TIME and MONEY spent by the drones who are addicted to Fantasy Football every year...now THAT would make a difference, IMHO. Every fall you read some fluff news piece of how many millions of Americans spend xxxxxxxxxxx hours and yyyyyyyyy dollars on FF leagues and stuff. It's interesting too that MLB and the NFL (I think) tried to control the use of their public player/game data by other parties and IIRC failed in that attempt.

I can say my average employee/friend here spends maybe $20-200 a week on FF crap (sorry, I know my bias is showing) and some spend upwards of $20K a season.

With free PP data (at least basic) and easy online ADW access, I can see this crowd really getting into it. Not that my one little story makes a difference, but I can say that I got three hard-core FF aficionados to open TVG accounts and we play all day as a background to our work. Does your boss know?:D

[elhelmete]

Does your boss know?:D

Yes I do. ;)

[Robert Goren]

Yes I do. ;) Well, you different than any boss I had. Every large company I ever worked for stated plainly in the employee hand book that gambling while on the clock was prohibited. I have seen people fired over it.

[Steve R]

Data from the latest American Racing Manual captures just how uninterested Americans are in Thoroughbred racing. If you consider only the major racing venues of Australia, France, Great Britain, Ireland, Italy, Japan and the US, the average handle per race in the US in 2008 was barely over 50% of the handle per race of the next lowest country, Australia. France, Great Britain, Ireland and Japan averaged between 6 and 8 times the handle per race as the US where, it appears, even those who bet on the races apparently aren't betting very much. In terms of each country's total population, the average person in the US wagered from about 10% to just over 20% the amount wagered by the average person in Australia, France, Great Britain, Ireland or Japan. Not an encouraging picture IMO, and not something that will be overcome by takeout manipulation or marketing..

[comet52]

I have now read 1 million articles, blog posts, and other screeds about "what's wrong with racing." I am not exaggerating (I have a lot of free time :cool: ). So, I don't need any more. I need to hear what can be done to improve racing and who/what/when/how/where it is going to happen.

[gm10]

http://therail.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/06/06/reasons-for-the-decline-of-horse-racing/#more-8621

why it is a dying game.

Not a bad piece but I am always amazed at how American observers leave at the "social occasion" aspect of a day at the races. It's critical imo - no business survives on bettors alone. Even Wall Street has to be bailed out from time to time.

[csperberg]

Data from the latest American Racing Manual captures just how uninterested Americans are in Thoroughbred racing. If you consider only the major racing venues of Australia, France, Great Britain, Ireland, Italy, Japan and the US, the average handle per race in the US in 2008 was barely over 50% of the handle per race of the next lowest country, Australia. France, Great Britain, Ireland and Japan averaged between 6 and 8 times the handle per race as the US where, it appears, even those who bet on the races apparently aren't betting very much. In terms of each country's total population, the average person in the US wagered from about 10% to just over 20% the amount wagered by the average person in Australia, France, Great Britain, Ireland or Japan. Not an encouraging picture IMO, and not something that will be overcome by takeout manipulation or marketing..

Yeah but you have to look at one thing and it's those other countries don't over saturate the product like we do. These are the total races run flat/jump/trot for Australia, France, GB, Ireland and Japan from the 2008 stats the International Federation of Horse racing provides
Australia=30,724
France=17,838
GB=9494
Ireland=2454
Japan=17,744
The total if you combine those 5 countries is 78,254 the United States ran 104,383 that is 26,129 more races than 5 countries ran combined. It doesn't take rocket science to see this is a major problem. Too many races period you can't chop it up any other way when you look at the numbers.

[Steve R]

Yeah but you have to look at one thing and it's those other countries don't over saturate the product like we do. These are the total races run flat/jump/trot for Australia, France, GB, Ireland and Japan from the 2008 stats the International Federation of Horse racing provides
Australia=30,724
France=17,838
GB=9494
Ireland=2454
Japan=17,744
The total if you combine those 5 countries is 78,254 the United States ran 104,383 that is 26,129 more races than 5 countries ran combined. It doesn't take rocket science to see this is a major problem. Too many races period you can't chop it up any other way when you look at the numbers.
I guess it depends on how you define over saturation. If you look at your race figures relative to each country's total population and not simply as absolute numbers, the US falls just about in the middle of that pack with Australia running several times more races per capita and Japan several times fewer.

[csperberg]

I guess it depends on how you define over saturation. If you look at your race figures relative to each country's total population and not simply as absolute numbers, the US falls just about in the middle of that pack with Australia running several times more races per capita and Japan several times fewer.

but like Japan out of those races only about 3,500 are run by the JRA and the JRA accounts for $29 billion of the $33 billion wagered in Japan. The JRA only races on weekends and major holidays, only has 10 tracks which of only 2-3 run on a weekend. The JRA has 14+ average runners per race. Now on the other hand the NAR accounts for majority of the races and they are basically lower tier racing and you could say the oversaturated product in japan, and their handle to race comparison is far lower than the JRA since they only wager about $4 billion on NAR races. The numbers the JRA does is out of this world really, oh yeah and they do that with 25% takeout.

[thaskalos]

The horse racing industry needs to be unified so they can start pursuing common goals. The way it is now...they don't know what they want.

They embraced the full-card simulcasting concept...but soon thereafter, the track owners started complaining that not enough money was being wagered on the "home" tracks. How was that a surprising result?

They loved the idea of building OTBs...but then were shocked to discover that their glamorous racetracks were empty as a result. An idiot would have guessed as much...

Only men of great vision can revive a dying industry, but sadly, the people currently leading the horse racing industry suffer from an advanced case of myopia.

[Robert Goren]

Not a bad piece but I am always amazed at how American observers leave at the "social occasion" aspect of a day at the races. It's critical imo - no business survives on bettors alone. Even Wall Street has to be bailed out from time to time. Most casinos survive on betters alone. Wall street gets bail from time to time but most of the time it stands on it own two feet. Name one racetrack who got bailed that said "we don't need it anymore, take the slot machines out.";)

[thaskalos]

When a horseplayer is talking to a horse owner about things in racing, I think it is quite normal to talk in terms of "our game"

Please do not mis interpret that to mean(as you have) that I think that it is the Horse players game...you and I both know that is far from the truth. If you would read the Pinnacle thread on this you would see I made a similar point that you are making now.

I have been a horse player all my life and have taken the abuse of many people because of it... So I have become a HANA officer to try to improve the position of horse players everywhere, and HANA has made a lot of progress...and there will be a lot more.

And yes, I believe in this game and yes I know horse racing will come into the real world of economic competition and do a lot better than they are doing now.

I understand how horse players feel, but stop bitching and dumping on those who are working for you and join us.

If there is something I can do for you ,I will give it my best effort...

roger@hanaweb.org Hi Roger,

I didn't mean to offend...and I apologize for not being observant enough to realize that you are a HANA officer.

I admit to not being a HANA member - BUT...if a nation-wide boycott is in the works...then I will join you immediately...checkbook in hand!

[rwwupl]

Hi Roger,

I didn't mean to offend...and I apologize for not being observant enough to realize that you are a HANA officer.

I admit to not being a HANA member - BUT...if a nation-wide boycott is in the works...then I will join you immediately...checkbook in hand!


thaskalos,...

Everything is cool, We need to work together. I understand.

[Indulto]

Both Bennett Liebman and SteveR made many good points which --agree with them or not--need to be considered going forward. The reason I personally think young people can still be attracted to the game was my own interest in poker as a teenager prior to discovering thoroughbred racing in my twenties. I continued playing socially afterward, but my gambling focus transferred to racing. I’m certain that if takeout were as high then as it is today, I wouldn’t have lasted long enough to become hooked on the game.

The variety of wagering opportunities today are much more exciting, but making the newbie aware of them in a positive way is even more poorly addressed than the subject of handicapping.

I find today’s 18-30yos too savvy to invest time and money without perceived value and confidence in the proceedings; and there is much more to turn one off in that regard today. I believe that young women are the key to reversing the decline, but that racing would have to make everything that has to do directly with the horse bear greater scrutiny AND implement far better customer service at racetracks to accomplish that.

[rwwupl]

Both Bennett Liebman and SteveR made many good points which --agree with them or not--need to be considered going forward. The reason I personally think young people can still be attracted to the game was my own interest in poker as a teenager prior to discovering thoroughbred racing in my twenties. I continued playing socially afterward, but my gambling focus transferred to racing. I’m certain that if takeout were as high then as it is today, I wouldn’t have lasted long enough to become hooked on the game.

The variety of wagering opportunities today are much more exciting, but making the newbie aware of them in a positive way is even more poorly addressed than the subject of handicapping.

I find today’s 18-30yos too savvy to invest time and money without perceived value and confidence in the proceedings; and there is much more to turn one off in that regard today. I believe that young women are the key to reversing the decline, but that racing would have to make everything that has to do directly with the horse bear greater scrutiny AND implement far better customer service at racetracks to accomplish that.



Indulto,

Thank you. I want all people ,regardless of demographics to join us in the joy of horse racing. The point is we are losing ground in our traditional support groups,perhaps because of the millions of dollars spent on directing our marketing focus to attract "young people" for 20 years , with out results.

If there is a new approach to attract young people, fine, but pushing the same old program and expecting different results is insane.

Meanwhile, if we put a little effort and money to lure back our natural demographic fan base,by something new,such as subsidize the take out for W-P-S at 10% for a season at a major track,would be a start. The Association could ask the State and Marketing to chip in and cover any losses that might occur... and I am sure there would be a good response to that from core fans and start rebuilding , instead of wringing our hands over decline.

Monmouth took a chance,and the results have been good so far,...Why not California?

It will take leadership... and who will stand up ?

rwwupl

[Wingtips]

The horse racing industry needs to be unified so they can start pursuing common goals. The way it is now...they don't know what they want.

They embraced the full-card simulcasting concept...but soon thereafter, the track owners started complaining that not enough money was being wagered on the "home" tracks. How was that a surprising result?

They loved the idea of building OTBs...but then were shocked to discover that their glamorous racetracks were empty as a result. An idiot would have guessed as much...

Only men of great vision can revive a dying industry, but sadly, the people currently leading the horse racing industry suffer from an advanced case of myopia.

NTRA- Go Baby Go!!!!

[jamey1977]

My sentiments exactly. Racing has too much of a good old boy network, those of us who support it are outsiders. Horseplayers don't even get an injury report, how are we to know if a horse has been off just for a break or because of injury or correction of a physical problem. It's not even noted in the PP's when a horse was gelded. Or a change in type of blinkers, etc etc.

There's a lot to know, and too much info that isn't provided.

Outside of that, how many of you have your leisure suits and heavy gold chains ready for "Disco at the Downs" Friday night? I wonder if the first 5000 people through the gates get a coupon for a qualude, aka "disco biscuit"?
A lot of points. This game is so damn hard. The best players barely can get an edge. 30 percent is the highest I can get, when my damn wins come in. I wait and wait. There are players more knowlegable with more experience and their edge is zero. They are lucky to break even, with no rebate they would just quit. I mean it's damn hard to win anything. What explains these trainers winning races when they are not suppose to ? . Everyone says they're doing something to the horses. They are all saying it's corrupt. No one is doubting them . Friends of mine have tried to play. They didn't want my help, they bet on their own. One lost 300 dollars on one day. With exactas and Win and Place, and then 400 dollars the next day. I think he won one horse that paid 3.20 to win. He lost 700 dollars in 2 days and he hasn't been back since. They take our money, treat us like crap and allow corruption to go on. And they wonder why no one comes to the races anymore. They wonder why no one bets anymore.

[WinterTriangle]

I just happen to think that they are solutions to problems not at the root of the issue.


I agree--- you have to understand the problem before you can find the solution, but that requires seeing the elephant in the room instead of the wrinkles on the elephant.

Perception is a funny thing, but it actually involves first perceiving one's own mental representations----

(I have a lot of fun, watching my dog, who is not a realist, turn his back on an object ----and I say while laughing: "As much as you have convinced yourself, it does not vanish when you do that!" :D )

----so even if one doesn't see the elephant, it is still there, even if unperceived.


If you consider only the major racing venues of Australia, France, Great Britain, Ireland, Italy, Japan and the US, the average handle per race in the US in 2008 was barely over 50% of the handle per race of the next lowest country, Australia. France, Great Britain, Ireland and Japan averaged between 6 and 8 times the handle per race as the US where, it appears, even those who bet on the races apparently aren't betting very much. In terms of each country's total population, the average person in the US wagered from about 10% to just over 20% the amount wagered by the average person in Australia, France, Great Britain, Ireland or Japan.

I did not know this. That certainly puts things in a new light for me.