2010 Vanity field beginning to take shape

[cj]

Decent bunch:

http://www.pacefigures.com/images/vanityfield.jpg

[letswastemoney]

The Zenyatta Protection League won't be happy about this. I found it funny though :)

[Headbanger]

Decent bunch:

http://www.pacefigures.com/images/vanityfield.jpg

Sharp Post

[Cardus]

Outstanding!

[Spalding No!]

If the can on the left runs, will it be considered "open company"?

[Cardus]

I see the picture as tomato paste, and the point of it is to say that Zenyatta is going to "paste" the competition in the Vanity.

[JustRalph]

I saw the thread title and thought to myself

" what the hell is he talking about?" nice one, you got me :ThmbUp:

[horses4courses]

Are the entries to Zenyatta's races restricted to private invitation only?

I seem to remember her making it to the Apple Blossom at OP in April.
Not too many others were willing to make the trip.

Funny how history tends to repeat itself........ ;)

[letswastemoney]

I'd be interested in looking at the nominations for the Vanity though, if anyone has them. Hopefully they won't all be Pretty Unusual, Pretty Katherine, etc.

[HuggingTheRail]

That's about right...it would make a field of 5, and those 4 would have to be grouped together as an entry...

note: I am not a Zenyatta basher, but this thread is :lol:

[cj]

I'd be interested in looking at the nominations for the Vanity though, if anyone has them. Hopefully they won't all be Pretty Unusual, Pretty Katherine, etc.

Here are the nominees:

http://morgandotcom.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/crushedtomatoes4-640x480.jpg

Sorry, couldn't resist

[Speed Figure]

I think it's 100% BULL $HIT how you love to talk about Zenyatta.

[cj]

I'm talking about the horses she will be facing.

[Grits]

Its after 11:30 pm, here in New York, and I'm 'capping tomorrow's card, I look up and see this . . . . . one could hear me laughing on the backside of Belmont.

I shouldn't fuel you on, but you've outdone yourself this time, Cj.

I'm not bashing her, I adore the mare; still, this is undeniably hilarious.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Robert Goren]

If RA was running instead of Z, we would trying to figure out which one of those cans was going beat her.;)

[cj]

Maybe so, but Rachel has faced obviously tougher horses this year. I'm not saying Zenyatta would have lost to either. I'm just having fun with my advanced GIMP skills.

[letswastemoney]

I made a movie poster. What do you think?

(Yup I'm this bored)

http://i965.photobucket.com/albums/ae132/Rachelftw123/MoviePoster.jpg

[v j stauffer]

St. Trinians is NOT a tomato can. With race shape and weights Z will have to run her A race.

[Spalding No!]

St. Trinians is NOT a tomato can. With race shape and weights Z will have to run her A race.

That's if the Big Cap debacle didn't derail St. Trinians' form.

She would have been a much more interesting rival in the Santa Margarita, especially if you allow for the trouble Zenyatta ultimately encountered in that race.

[Cardus]

I made a movie poster. What do you think?

(Yup I'm this bored)

http://i965.photobucket.com/albums/ae132/Rachelftw123/MoviePoster.jpg

You needn't apologize.

Well done.

[Show Me the Wire]

Maybe so, but Rachel has faced obviously tougher horses this year. I'm not saying Zenyatta would have lost to either. I'm just having fun with my advanced GIMP skills.


You are kidding right? There is nothing obviously tougher about Rachel's opponets.

[Spalding No!]

You are kidding right? There is nothing obviously tougher about Rachel's opponets.

If this actually turns into a debate, I'm gonna guess that the crux of your argument is that Made For Magic is now a Grade 2 winner after running down that Baffert filly with allowance conditions left.

[Show Me the Wire]

You guys are a hoot.

Millions of dollars in profit are at stake when Zenyatta runs. Hollywood park is not just going to let some other track receive the financial windfall from a Zenyatta race, without a fight.

Also the Moss' are big boosters of Cali racing and are more than willing to let Hollywood and Santa Anita benefit from the gigantic handle, increased admissions, sales and so on.

Bottom line it makes financial sense for the Cali racing industry for Zenyatta to race west of the Rockies untl the B.C. and it doesn't make any economic sense for any horse to ship-in to challenge her.

[Show Me the Wire]

If this actually turns into a debate, I'm gonna guess that the crux of your argument is that Made For Magic is now a Grade 2 winner after running down that Baffert filly with allowance conditions left.


No. The crux of my argument is there is no obviously. Rachel lost to two non-descript fields, period.

[horses4courses]

If RA was running instead of Z, we would trying to figure out which one of those cans was going beat her.;)

Very true.
Could even be like one of those "buy in bulk" deals at the store.
Buy 2 and get one free - the "Tomato Can Trifecta" - limited time offer.

Working 1:11 and change doesn't always get it done in the afternoon.
Especially if your heart isn't in it anymore.

[WinterTriangle]

Here are the nominees:

http://morgandotcom.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/crushedtomatoes4-640x480.jpg

Sorry, couldn't resist

By the photo, one can assume there are no Euros running in the race?

The Hunts is a bottom level claimer. For you cooks out there, you know what I mean when I say that no self-respecting Italian would use Hunts:) .....or any american-style tomato paste in a can because it tastes "tinny" and vapid. When you are in Italy, cooking, you use real tomato paste, like Mutti brand from Tuscanny, or Amore brand, and it comes in tubes, not cans.

Post race photo of contenders after Zenyatta is finished with them: :lol:
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a275/lovescanines/tomatopaste-360.jpg

[Grits]

Winter, that looks like an organ. An abused liver maybe!! :lol:

And yes, fine thoughts on the good cooks thing, but try finding tomato paste in a tube in a Southern grocery. A gourmet market, yes, but not a grocery.

[elhelmete]

I'll be betting at Costco where I can bet 14-can fields, at least.

[Spalding No!]

You guys are a hoot.

Millions of dollars in profit are at stake when Zenyatta runs. Hollywood park is not just going to let some other track receive the financial windfall from a Zenyatta race, without a fight.

Also the Moss' are big boosters of Cali racing and are more than willing to let Hollywood and Santa Anita benefit from the gigantic handle, increased admissions, sales and so on.

Bottom line it makes financial sense for the Cali racing industry for Zenyatta to race west of the Rockies untl the B.C. and it doesn't make any economic sense for any horse to ship-in to challenge her.

This post is a hoot.

Yeah, there was some big behind the scenes battle royale amongst racetracks to get Team Zenyatta, but it was the financially strapped, marked-for-demolition Hollywood Park with it's bobbleheads and tomato can backstretch residents that won the hearts of Jerry and Ann Moss and Bo Derek as they march their way along the beaten path towards New Mexico and the immortality that is Pepper's Pride.

Talk about a crock of sh!t.

Can we can it and make Zenyatta run against it?

[joanied]

:lol: I don't know which I like better...the tomatoe can poster, or the 'stands between' poster...but cj, you really are the comedian afterall:D
you guys missed your calling...shoulda been in the advertising/marketing business ;)
By the way...I would'nt use any of those tomaters in my Italian sauce!!

[delayjf]

Also the Moss' are big boosters of Cali racing and are more than willing to let Hollywood and Santa Anita benefit from the gigantic handle, increased admissions, sales and so on.

Fine, run in the Gold Cup. I don't understand bringing her out of retirement to run for peanuts.

[joanied]

I've said this before...I really think they are wanting win #17 before they commit Z to tougher spots...that 17 seems to be the breaking point...it was with Cigar & Citation...me thinks once they get that done, have her break the record, they will look for tougher spots, and try that hike over the Rockies again.

[Hedevar]

I've said this before...I really think they are wanting win #17 before they commit Z to tougher spots...that 17 seems to be the breaking point...it was with Cigar & Citation...me thinks once they get that done, have her break the record, they will look for tougher spots, and try that hike over the Rockies again.

Nice theory but it has no support. They are in California until the BC and that is assuming they go to Churchill. At the beginning of the year they were planning on taking on males in various locations. Those plans seem to have dissolved. They like California and will stay there.

[Nikki1997]

Nice theory but it has no support. They are in California until the BC and that is assuming they go to Churchill. At the beginning of the year they were planning on taking on males in various locations. Those plans seem to have dissolved. They like California and will stay there.


It has the same amount of support your theory does--in fact maybe a hair more, as they have left California one out of two races so far .

Both posts are theories, and your proclamation that she will stay in California can only be confirmed when the year is over and all is said and run ...

[letswastemoney]

More wonderful quotes from Shirreffs!!

"Races with bigger fields are truer races in the sense that everyone is riding their own horses," he said. "In a smaller field, jockeys worry about other horses and it can lead to funny outcomes."

http://drf.com/news/article/113606.html

[cj]

More wonderful quotes from Shirreffs!!

"Races with bigger fields are truer races in the sense that everyone is riding their own horses," he said. "In a smaller field, jockeys worry about other horses and it can lead to funny outcomes."

http://drf.com/news/article/113606.html

Wow, that is just sad. I'm sure everyone gets cleaner trips in bigger fields, just like in the Derby.

[George Sands]

CJ,

Leave aside other senses for a second. Do you think races with larger fields are truer races IN THE SENSE THAT he said?

[only11]

Decent bunch:

http://www.pacefigures.com/images/vanityfield.jpg
didnt one of these cans beat RA

[Hedevar]

It has the same amount of support your theory does--in fact maybe a hair more, as they have left California one out of two races so far .

Both posts are theories, and your proclamation that she will stay in California can only be confirmed when the year is over and all is said and run ...

Aren't you the one that acknowledged the Mosses knew last years schedule wouldn't fly this year and you were all in favor of some races against males. Any plans for trips out of California? The public awaits as do the Rockies. Horse of the Year is not awarded for hiding at Hollywood.

[Spalding No!]

Odds-on favorites often have a target on their backs regardless of field size. I'm surprised Shirreffs isn't worried about the possible lack of any real pace in the race instead.

But the DRF got the word out very early (they don't take entries for several days), so I'm sure someone with a frontrunning type will relent and show up for the race.

And if I were Arnold Zetcher, knowing that Zardana in the past has been effective on the front end, I would be looking to complete the Criminal Type-like spoiler role rather than suffer another Rockies crossing into the unknown at Belmont.

[Spalding No!]

didnt one of these cans beat RA

No, neither Zardana nor Unrivaled Belle has ever faced Zenyatta in a race.

[Nikki1997]

Aren't you the one that acknowledged the Mosses knew last years schedule wouldn't fly this year and you were all in favor of some races against males. Any plans for trips out of California? The public awaits as do the Rockies. Horse of the Year is not awarded for hiding at Hollywood.


Yes I am--and the mods deleted several posts in our discussion .

Guess they didn't like the Thurberesque volleys .

There is no evidence that Zenyatta will or will not " hide " in California .

At the end of the year--one theory will be correct .

What is true now, is that posts get deleted.

Mikki

[joanied]

It has the same amount of support your theory does--in fact maybe a hair more, as they have left California one out of two races so far .

Both posts are theories, and your proclamation that she will stay in California can only be confirmed when the year is over and all is said and run ...

Thanks, Nikki1997....you said what I was going to post in reply to Hedevar...after all, most of what we say on this topic is theory, opinoin and sometimes wishful thinkin' :)
That's my theory, and I'm stickin' to it:jump:

[Nikki1997]

Thanks, Nikki1997....you said what I was going to post in reply to Hedevar...after all, most of what we say on this topic is theory, opinoin and sometimes wishful thinkin' :)
That's my theory, and I'm stickin' to it:jump:


Your theory is a good one .

And tonight it is Mikki.

Hard to be be female here, isn't it ???

[Headbanger]

Thanks, Nikki1997....you said what I was going to post in reply to Hedevar...after all, most of what we say on this topic is theory, opinoin and sometimes wishful thinkin' :)
That's my theory, and I'm stickin' to it:jump:

Saying that Zenyatta has left California 1 out of 2 times this year is like if I ever got called up to the majors and went 1 for 2 saying I am a true .500 hitter. LOL.

[tucker6]

Hard to be be female here, isn't it ???
Oh I don't know, Ghostyapper does quite well.

[FEARTHECHOMP]

Wow, that is just sad. I'm sure everyone gets cleaner trips in bigger fields, just like in the Derby.


Nothing to do with trip....Its all about the pace set up...St Trinians will get the 1st run here....Zenyatta will have to stretch her legs in this one....

[letswastemoney]

I just thought it was strange that Shirreffs worries about the field size when he chose this race.

[Nikki1997]

Saying that Zenyatta has left California 1 out of 2 times this year is like if I ever got called up to the majors and went 1 for 2 saying I am a true .500 hitter. LOL.


Wrong . It is exactly as stated, and she did .

Has nothing to do with your ball playing ...

[Nikki1997]

Nothing to do with trip....Its all about the pace set up...St Trinians will get the 1st run here....Zenyatta will have to stretch her legs in this one....

Exactly .

But I don't get his apprehension about St. Trinians--if what he said was not taken out of context .

Smaller fields can wind up with a speed duel in front or a crawl for all, but this should realistically not worry him .

St. Trinians is a neat mare and very catty--eggbeater movements aside--but JS should expect Z would actually have to stretch her legs once in a while ..

[Dahoss9698]

Hard to be be clueless here, isn't it ???

FTFY

[thaskalos]

Decent bunch:



http://www.pacefigures.com/images/vanityfield.jpg Cj...I hope this is not considered "off-topic", but these tomato cans you posted seem to have a shelf life that expired over 3 years ago. I am warning you in case you were thinking of using them...I wouldn't want anything bad to happen to you.

We would hate to be left without your "biting" sense of humor for any length of time...

[Zenyatta To Crush]

I'm one of the biggest Zenyatta fans in the world but I am quite scared of this race. Zenyatta's worst two races, in MY opinion, were both of her Vanity races. Those are the two races where it looked like she was spinning her wheels a bit.

St Trinians is a solid horse and if its like a 4 horse field and Z has to carry like 10 more pounds than her...than anything can happen.

She's also had some slower workouts lately, but I'm disregarding them because they keep working her with a slow maiden and they always work her so she finished only a few lengths in front of her workmate.

I still predict a victory but I sure hope Mike Smith doesn't get overly confident and find himself in another Clement Hirsch situation.

[Dahoss9698]

Cj...I hope this is not considered "off-topic", but these tomato cans you posted seem to have a shelf life that expired over 3 years ago. I am warning you in case you were thinking of using them...I wouldn't want anything bad to happen to you.

We would hate to be left without your "biting" sense of humor for any length of time...

No one does passive aggresive like you.

[PaceAdvantage]

What is true now, is that posts get deleted.Inappropriate comments and personal attacks will always be removed. True then and true now.

[Nikki1997]

Inappropriate comments and personal attacks will always be removed. True then and true now.

Subjective, but it is your forum, your opinion , and your final word, of course .

Thanks for the explanation .

[Hedevar]

Pace,

I had an idea my comments might be deleted when I wrote them. There are just some things I will simply not stand for. My apologies.

[ghostyapper]

Inappropriate comments and personal attacks will always be removed. True then and true now.

Let's give full disclosure here. Certain inappropriate comments and personal attacks will always be removed while others will be left or encouraged. It all depends on who posts it and what topic they are discussing

Pace can you explain to me the difference between this thread and the one that was deleted instantly that rachel will be running in claiming races soon? How about the "rachel's connections bob and weave" that you threatened to close because of repetitiveness?

[eastie]

I've got to think that Zenyatta is headed for Saratoga. It would be great for the game, and she deserves to run at the Spa. It would be awesome to see her there.

[castaway01]

First of all, the tomato can post to start the thread was hilarious.

Second, the Vanity will be another boring race where Zenyatta jogs for six furlongs, kicks in late and runs past nothing. Wowee.

I will be fair and concede that her whole career has been managed well from the perspective of keeping her undefeated---the connections only run her in races where she has to put up a top effort once a year or so. The rest of her races are like paid workouts in southern California. No one can deny her machine-like consistency, but it's certainly not very "sporting" or "interesting". I know some feel the owners shouldn't care about those things, but as a racing fan I care about them, and that's how I see it.

I'm sure someone will reply with "But RA lost..." Um, this post isn't about her.

[joanied]

Your theory is a good one .

And tonight it is Mikki.

Hard to be be female here, isn't it ???

If she wins the Vanity, then my theory will be tested...the Rockies might not seem so insurmountable once she breaks the streak record.

I also think this may not be a walk in the park for her...someone mentioned Mike getting a little too confident...I hope the clock in his head is working, and that she does win...St. Trinian's does scare me a bit...Sherriff's comments on field size, IMO, is kinda weird...it can actually work either way...big or small fields, if it's the 'right' field, it's gonna pose a problem.

I also have to say, it's not their fault that no one shows up to run against her...it's really no fault of her connections either...they entered her, and it's up to other connections to enter and try and beat her...I'd have to say it's more the fault of other trainer/owners, than the Z connections...isn't there more than 3 other fillies/mares that could run in the Vanity...the competition is, IMO, just plain chicken $hit.

Mikki...I don't know about it being hard to be female here...I have always held my own with the 'dudes'... when I went to work at Belmont, there were maybe 3 or 4 other women there...and I have always worked with guys...I also worked for Burlington-Northern Rail Road...laying down track, me, one other gal and 35 guys...
nope, it doesn't bother me at all...hell, I can hit just as hard as they can;)

[joanied]

Saying that Zenyatta has left California 1 out of 2 times this year is like if I ever got called up to the majors and went 1 for 2 saying I am a true .500 hitter. LOL.

:confused: This post makes me want to bang MY head :bang: ...first of all, it's early June, fer cryin' out loud...let's wait and see before we go to bitchin' about Z's scheduel.
Baseball? yeah....LOL !!

[Nikki1997]

If she wins the Vanity, then my theory will be tested...the Rockies might not seem so insurmountable once she breaks the streak record.

I also think this may not be a walk in the park for her...someone mentioned Mike getting a little too confident...I hope the clock in his head is working, and that she does win...St. Trinian's does scare me a bit...Sherriff's comments on field size, IMO, is kinda weird...it can actually work either way...big or small fields, if it's the 'right' field, it's gonna pose a problem.

I also have to say, it's not their fault that no one shows up to run against her...it's really no fault of her connections either...they entered her, and it's up to other connections to enter and try and beat her...I'd have to say it's more the fault of other trainer/owners, than the Z connections...isn't there more than 3 other fillies/mares that could run in the Vanity...the competition is, IMO, just plain chicken $hit.

Mikki...I don't know about it being hard to be female here...I have always held my own with the 'dudes'... when I went to work at Belmont, there were maybe 3 or 4 other women there...and I have always worked with guys...I also worked for Burlington-Northern Rail Road...laying down track, me, one other gal and 35 guys...
nope, it doesn't bother me at all...hell, I can hit just as hard as they can;)


The female remark was somewhat tongue in cheek .

I worked at Belmont when women were scarce as well--in between semesters at school .

If you passed muster there, you were fine .

I worked for Frankel and Campo--both tough guys-and I worked in several show horse barns, as did Nikki .

[OntheRail]

:confused: This post makes me want to bang MY head :bang: ...first of all, it's early June, fer cryin' out loud...let's wait and see before we go to bitchin' about Z's scheduel.
Baseball? yeah....LOL !!

That's true it's only June... but if we look at her past scheduel they only run about 5 races a year. This will be #3 we know the BC will be the last (if she run in it at all) so that leaves two more races in her for the year. Not really much of a showcase for the rest of the Country. :sleeping:

IMHO they re-retire her before the Classic on Dirt maybe after the Vanity.

[joanied]

That's true it's only June... but if we look at her past scheduel they only run about 5 races a year. This will be #3 we know the BC will be the last (if she run in it at all) so that leaves two more races in her for the year. Not really much of a showcase for the rest of the Country. :sleeping:

IMHO they re-retire her before the Classic on Dirt maybe after the Vanity.

Maybe we should forget about past years...that was then, this is now, as they say...I can only speak for myself, and I'm just gonnna wait and see...we have no idea what their plans might be...I am not one to jump to conclusions.

[joanied]

The female remark was somewhat tongue in cheek .

I worked at Belmont when women were scarce as well--in between semesters at school .

If you passed muster there, you were fine .

I worked for Frankel and Campo--both tough guys-and I worked in several show horse barns, as did Nikki .

Guess I missed it ;)
You must be older than I figured to have worked at Belmont when women were scarce.

Campo was a hard man to work for, unless you just walked hots...my ex hisband ( ex rider)worked for him a lot, so I spent a lot of time in his barn...one thing for sure, never a dull moment with Big John:)
I can't hardly talk about Bobby anymore...just makes me feel sad all over...I still can't beleive he's gone.

But, yep...if a woman could make it on the backside then, they could pretty much make it anywhere.
Never been into the show horse scene...not my cuppa tea!

[Java Gold@TFT]

OK, enough about the small field Zenyatta will face and let's guess on the weights. Didn't Zenyatta carry 130 last year? (No pp's infront of me). Since then she has won a couple of more G-I's against fillies and the biggest race of the year against males. Add in two G-I's this year. How can any self respecting Racing Secretary give her less than 134? I'll give anyone even odds that he doesn't have the cajones to give her 134-135 which she deserves. Given her history since last year's race, how do you not load her up if you have the guts to do it. I say Zen - 134, The Saint 121. That's an honest opinion on what a handicap is supposed to be.

[Nikki1997]

OK, enough about the small field Zenyatta will face and let's guess on the weights. Didn't Zenyatta carry 130 last year? (No pp's infront of me). Since then she has won a couple of more G-I's against fillies and the biggest race of the year against males. Add in two G-I's this year. How can any self respecting Racing Secretary give her less than 134? I'll give anyone even odds that he doesn't have the cajones to give her 134-135 which she deserves. Given her history since last year's race, how do you not load her up if you have the guts to do it. I say Zen - 134, The Saint 121. That's an honest opinion on what a handicap is supposed to be.



The most she carried was 129 .

She will be weighted 130-133 .

Shirreffs will pass on 134 or 135 .

The spreads will be the factor .

Z has given away up to 18 lbs--if memory serves me right .

[Nikki1997]

Guess I missed it ;)
You must be older than I figured to have worked at Belmont when women were scarce.

Campo was a hard man to work for, unless you just walked hots...my ex hisband ( ex rider)worked for him a lot, so I spent a lot of time in his barn...one thing for sure, never a dull moment with Big John:)
I can't hardly talk about Bobby anymore...just makes me feel sad all over...I still can't beleive he's gone.

But, yep...if a woman could make it on the backside then, they could pretty much make it anywhere.
Never been into the show horse scene...not my cuppa tea!

Campo had Gleaming Light and Boone the Great when I was around--between semesters at school .

Al Shwizer galloped for him . Mary " Mike " Ryan did as well.

I had more trouble with Al than John .

I am vaguely into the dressage show horse scene, but Nikki has shown Western extensively.

I kept my OTTB at a show horse barn, and worked off his keep and lessons.

Frankel was still at Aqueduct back then, with a bunch of claimers . My best friend and I worked for him, and ocassionally hung out with him .

We met his parents in Far Rockaway--Bobby was a character even then .

We also worked for Roger Laurin and Tommy Walsh-, and always got hired together .Charlsie Cantey was galloping for Tommy then , and he had Bert and Diana Firestone's string, as well as jumpers.

We were just a bunch of school kids working the track summers, and getting into all kinds of mischief .

[Java Gold@TFT]

The most she carried was 129 .

She will be weighted 130-133 .

Shirreffs will pass on 134 or 135 .

The spreads will be the factor .

Z has given away up to 18 lbs--if memory serves me right .
129 or 130, whatever. Since she carried 129 she has won 5 G-I stakes including the biggest race in America. To not give her 134-135 lbs is just obnoxious arogance to get Sherriffs to allow her to run. If he scams out of a weight like that and lets the Vanity to go as a 3 horse race for a G-I then all of racing should be embarrased.

[Nikki1997]

129 or 130, whatever. Since she carried 129 she has won 5 G-I stakes including the biggest race in America. To not give her 134-135 lbs is just obnoxious arogance to get Sherriffs to allow her to run. If he scams out of a weight like that and lets the Vanity to go as a 3 horse race for a G-I then all of racing should be embarrased.

NO horse will carry 134 or 135 in a G1 this year. No horse has carried that much in recent years--including Curlin .

If they give her 129, I agree with you .

As I said prior, the weight spreads also will be a factor--like if she gives St. Trinians 18 lbs .

[Nikki1997]

Just an FYI---HOY Rachel Alexandra has been assigned 118 lbs for the Stephen Foster ... Quality Road , who will not go, was assigned top weight of 127 .

Allowing the three pounds scale for F&Ms, Rachel shares highweight, if she goes .

She will carry 124 in the Fleur de Lis--same as last out, if she goes ..

[FenceBored]

NO horse will carry 134 or 135 in a G1 this year. No horse has carried that much in recent years--including Curlin .
Maybe not in US Grade 1s, but St. Trinians carried 134 or more on 3 occasions in GB.

If they give her 129, I agree with you .

As I said prior, the weight spreads also will be a factor--like if she gives St. Trinians 18 lbs .

Why shouldn't Zenyatta spot St. Trinians a ton of weight? Zenyatta is undefeated with 10 "G1" wins including two BC "World" Championship wins. St. Trinians has 1 G2 win and finished 6th in her only G1 appearance (carrying 113).

[Nikki1997]

Maybe not in US Grade 1s, but St. Trinians carried 134 or more on 3 occasions in GB.



Why shouldn't Zenyatta spot St. Trinians a ton of weight? Zenyatta is undefeated with 10 "G1" wins including two BC "World" Championship wins. St. Trinians has 1 G2 win and finished 6th in her only G1 appearance (carrying 113).


Excuse me--where did I say that Zenyatta should not spot St Trinian's weight ??? Even tons .

She should--but it is still a matter of spreads .

And while it IS known that St. Trinian's carried 134 in GB, you do not say what the other horses carried, and the races were on turf .

My point was obvious, but you chose to ignore it .

I will refer once again to the Stephen Foster .

Top weight WAS 127 for Quality Road--he will not run .

Co-highweights are 120--hence they are the top weights .

The spreads will be less than ten pounds .

HOY is assigned 118 pounds--she has run exactly twice like Zenyatta-who hasn't won 10 G1 this year .

But we all know what Rachel did last year .

Last year is last year, but you bring it up when convenient .

Once again--no horse will carry 134 or 135 in a G! this year--the star older male looks like he will run in WFA .

[FenceBored]

Excuse me--where did I say that Zenyatta should not spot St Trinian's weight ??? Even tons .

She should--but it is still a matter of spreads .

Okay, I got ya, Zen should spot her a ton of weight as long as the spread isn't large. :ThmbUp:


And while it IS known that St. Trinian's carried 134 in GB, you do not say what the other horses carried, and the races were on turf.
What's that got to do with the price of Peas in Peoria? Curlin carried 132 on the dirt at Nad al Sheba. Big whoopin deal.

My point was obvious, but you chose to ignore it .

I guess I'm dense, since the only point I see you trying to make is that Zenyatta shouldn't be asked to carry the weight she ought to. Or, rather, that her connections will wimp out if asked to do so.

[Nikki1997]

Okay, I got ya, Zen should spot her a ton of weight as long as the spread isn't large. :ThmbUp:


What's that got to do with the price of Peas in Peoria? Curlin carried 132 on the dirt at Nad al Sheba. Big whoopin deal.

I guess I'm dense, since the only point I see you trying to make is that Zenyatta shouldn't be asked to carry the weight she ought to. Or, rather, that her connections will wimp out if asked to do so.


Guess you are dense .

I said she should carry weight .

I said the spread would be significant .

I DID NOT SAY ANYTHING about wimping out about the spread---ONLY THAT IT MAY BE A CONSIDERATION in a small field .

A trainer does not have to accept weights--YOU may choose to call it wimping out .

Thank you for the info on Curlin---I am aware of what he carried . She should carry more ???

Curlin is not running this year, and AGAIN-no horse will carry 134 or 135 in a G1.

You said it--yes, you are dense .

My point--which you missed repeatedly, is that it is expected that Zenyatta be weighted a lot, and the spreads be wide as she has already spotted fields up to 18 lbs .

My other point --which was apparently too subtle for you--was that Quality Road was weighted highweight at 127 and Rachel at 118 for the Foster .

Too subtle ??

Zenyatta should carry at least 130, OK ???

134-135 surely is too much for a horse that beats canned produce, no ???

And she only won two G1 THIS year ...

Hopefully I made myself clear-----------------------Mikki

[Hedevar]

Okay, I got ya, Zen should spot her a ton of weight as long as the spread isn't large. :ThmbUp:


What's that got to do with the price of Peas in Peoria? Curlin carried 132 on the dirt at Nad al Sheba. Big whoopin deal.

I guess I'm dense, since the only point I see you trying to make is that Zenyatta shouldn't be asked to carry the weight she ought to. Or, rather, that her connections will wimp out if asked to do so.

Watch out Fence Bored one of them may tell you that your bodily functions don't work correctly. They don't like to be wrong and only like to talk about their experiences on the track, which only about a thousand people on this board possess. I forgot about the gratuitous insults.

[Nikki1997]

Watch out Fence Bored one of them may tell you that your bodily functions don't work correctly. They don't like to be wrong and only like to talk about their experiences on the track, which only about a thousand people on this board possess. I forgot about the gratuitous insults.


I have NO problem being wrong, and I have No knowledge of your plumbing, nor do I want to .

BTW---I was wrong on Quality Road only entered in WFA--the Whitney is a handicap .

There, I was wrong and corrected myself .

Talking about my experiences on the track was a direct response to some one else with similar experiences . That a problem for you ???

I hadn't noticed that a thousand people on the board possessed similar experiences .

Thank you for your insight .

Clearly you did not forget about alleged gratuitous insults ...

[FenceBored]

Guess you are dense .

I said she should carry weight .Just not a lot of it.


I said the spread would be significant .Just shouldn't be a realistic one.

I DID NOT SAY ANYTHING about wimping out about the spread---ONLY THAT IT MAY BE A CONSIDERATION in a small field . Which is traineresse for "Give me what I want or I'm wimping out."

A trainer does not have to accept weights--YOU may choose to call it wimping out .


As would anyone sensible.



Thank you for the info on Curlin---I am aware of what he carried . She should carry more ???

Yes.

Curlin is not running this year, and AGAIN-no horse will carry 134 or 135 in a G1.
:sleeping:
You said it--yes, you are dense .

My point--which you missed repeatedly, is that it is expected that Zenyatta be weighted a lot, and the spreads be wide as she has already spotted fields up to 18 lbs .

If it's less than 133 it ain't "a lot" under the circumstances. And clearly I'm not dense cause here you go with the same "she shouldn't have to carry the proper weight" thing, again.

My other point --which was apparently too subtle for you--was that Quality Road was weighted highweight at 127 and Rachel at 118 for the Foster .

Too subtle ??
No, just irrelevant. QR was weighted at 124 in the Donn. He won the Donn. He won the Met Mile. Add 2lbs for each victory and you get the 127 assigned by the CD secretary. Tain't rocket science.

Rachel has lost twice this year carrying 123 and 124, dropping her 3lbs seems reasonable (to 121), and with the 3lb allowance for distaffers that takes us to the 118. Seems fair to me.

The 124 for the Fleur de Lis is a little strange, but I guess she's highweight and they didn't want to have a highweight in the lower 120's.


Zenyatta should carry at least 130, OK ???Nope, not ok.

134-135 surely is too much for a horse that beats canned produce, no ???Not if she's earned it, and she has.

And she only won two G1 THIS year ...She has won 5 G1s since last year's Vanity when she carried 129. [Hammerlie's 127 in the Santa Margarita was a hickey, Mikki. A big old sloppy love bite for the connections.] Add 2lbs for each win and you get 139, so 134 is actually a reasonable compromise. 'It's the 50% impost sale next week at Hollywood Park.'

Hopefully I made myself clear-----------------------Mikki
Oh, yeah. <sniff, sniff> What's that I scent? It's the smell of fear.

Try to have more faith in Zenyatta, why don't you.

[Nikki1997]

Just not a lot of it.Just shouldn't be a realistic one. Which is traineresse for "Give me what I want or I'm wimping out."

As would anyone sensible.



Yes.
:sleeping:
If it's less than 133 it ain't "a lot" under the circumstances. And clearly I'm not dense cause here you go with the same "she shouldn't have to carry the proper weight" thing, again.
No, just irrelevant. QR was weighted at 124 in the Donn. He won the Donn. He won the Met Mile. Add 2lbs for each victory and you get the 127 assigned by the CD secretary. Tain't rocket science.

Rachel has lost twice this year carrying 123 and 124, dropping her 3lbs seems reasonable (to 121), and with the 3lb allowance for distaffers that takes us to the 118. Seems fair to me.

The 124 for the Fleur de Lis is a little strange, but I guess she's highweight and they didn't want to have a highweight in the lower 120's.
Nope, not ok.Not if she's earned it, and she has.She has won 5 G1s since last year's Vanity when she carried 129. [Hammerlie's 127 in the Santa Margarita was a hickey, Mikki. A big old sloppy love bite for the connections.] Add 2lbs for each win and you get 139, so 134 is actually a reasonable compromise. 'It's the 50% impost sale next week at Hollywood Park.'
Oh, yeah. <sniff, sniff> What's that I scent? It's the smell of fear.

Try to have more faith in Zenyatta, why don't you.

Of course you are correct--I smell fear here,or is it flatulence wafting over the ether .

You put a lot of effort into that post and I give you credit for that.

Believe what you wish---I have plenty of faith in Zenyatta, but we will have to disagree on what reasonable and fair are for ALL horses.

You may go back to sleep now .

[Spalding No!]

Of course you are correct--I smell fear here,or is it flatulence wafting over the ether .

And here come the bodily function references as accurately predicted...

[Nikki1997]

And here come the bodily function references as accurately predicted...


You asked for it--you got it .

[FenceBored]

Of course you are correct--I smell fear here,or is it flatulence wafting over the ether .

You put a lot of effort into that post and I give you credit for that.

Believe what you wish---I have plenty of faith in Zenyatta, but we will have to disagree on what reasonable and fair are for ALL horses.

You may go back to sleep now .

Apparently not, if you're this worried about weight and the spread.

[Nikki1997]

Apparently not, if you're this worried about weight and the spread.


What me worry ???

[WinterTriangle]

Apparently not, if you're this worried about weight and the spread.

You do realize that the weight system has been in use for 100 years and that there are guidelines, i.e, you don't just get to make up a weight you think would be right for a horse because you think they should be penalized more than what is historically appropriate.

It doesn't work that way.

As nikki pointed out, there won't even be any males that carry the weight you suggest in a G1 this year. by suggesting it, you appeared to be getting a bit hyperbolic. The system seems to work pretty well, as it is predicated on some historical sense of what is FAIR.

[Spalding No!]

You do realize that the weight system has been in use for 100 years and that there are guidelines, i.e, you don't just get to make up a weight you think would be right for a horse because you think they should be penalized more than what is historically appropriate.

It doesn't work that way.

As nikki pointed out, there won't even be any males that carry the weight you suggest in a G1 this year. by suggesting it, you appeared to be getting a bit hyperbolic. The system seems to work pretty well, as it is predicated on some historical sense of what is FAIR.

I thought the whole method of weighting a handicap was to try to cause the entire field to hit the wire at the same time.

It's not about being "fair" to the highweight at all. In fact, it's the complete opposite.

Forego carried in excess of 130 lbs 21 different times. He won 13 of those starts.

[Hedevar]

I thought the whole method of weighting a handicap was to try to cause the entire field to hit the wire at the same time.

It's not about being "fair" to the highweight at all. In fact, it's the complete opposite.

Forego carried in excess of 130 lbs 21 different times. He won 13 of those starts.

It's no fair using logic and the theory that has been used since handicaps have been run. You're supposed to figure out a way that Zenyatta can win in the easiest possible manner. Have you forgotten its Zenyatta bobblehead day.

[thaskalos]

It's no fair using logic and the theory that has been used since handicaps have been run. You're supposed to figure out a way that Zenyatta can win in the easiest possible manner. Have you forgotten its Zenyatta bobblehead day. Finally...an unbiased opinion.:jump:

[samyn on the green]

Very clever LOL. If the can on the left runs, will it be considered "open company"?

[Spalding No!]

It's no fair using logic and the theory that has been used since handicaps have been run. You're supposed to figure out a way that Zenyatta can win in the easiest possible manner. Have you forgotten its Zenyatta bobblehead day.

The easiest possible manner would be, instead of having Zenyatta bobbleheads, make Made For Magic, Lethal Heat, and Third Dawn bobbleheads , tie them to Zenyatta's tail and let her rip.

Not only will she show some new versatility by going wire-to-wire, but may also be spooked into breaking a track record.

Either that, or change her silks to represent the Stars And Stripes and have her run against only horses that sport the name "Washington General".

[FenceBored]

You do realize that the weight system has been in use for 100 years and that there are guidelines, i.e, you don't just get to make up a weight you think would be right for a horse because you think they should be penalized more than what is historically appropriate.

It doesn't work that way.

As nikki pointed out, there won't even be any males that carry the weight you suggest in a G1 this year. by suggesting it, you appeared to be getting a bit hyperbolic. The system seems to work pretty well, as it is predicated on some historical sense of what is FAIR.

The system as it works in the US right now is almost universally considered a joke. The days when a Tommy Trotter could tell a Mrs. DuPont, or a Mrs. Gerry, that her horse was going to carry 136 with a reasonable expectation that the horse would go to the post carrying that weight are gone. And that time has passed not because the racing secretaries wanted it, not because the betting public (which doesn't like chalky sequences) wanted it, but because connections wanted it this way.

You say there are guidelines? Well, here's a snippet from an Aussie website about such guidelines:

Weight Penalty Table For Winners

-----------------------------------------------

Winning Margin

-----------------------------------------------------------

Field Size Small Medium Large

-----------------------------------------------------------

Small +0.5 to 1kg +1 to 1.5kg +1.5 to 2kg

-----------------------------------------------------------

Medium +1.5 to 2kg +2 to 2.5kg +2.5 to 3kg

-----------------------------------------------------------

Large +2 to 2.5kg +2.5 to 3kg +3 to 3.5kg


-- http://ausrace.com/art/handicapping.htm


Oh, darn, looks like I am wrong. The figure I was using (2lb per win) is the lower end of the scale for Aussies.

Also got a kick out of this paragraph:
On the other side of the coin, horses that have exceptional winning records will attract higher penalties than the above tables suggest, simply because their performance record shows that the regular range of penalties are no barrier to successful performance.
Golly, kinda defines Zenyatta doesn't it, "the regular range of penalties are no barrier to successful performance."

In reality, nobody expects Zenyatta to get an impost that will have any effect on her. Racing secretaries in the US don't have it in them to even try anymore. Some of us, those not blindly constrained by current American fashion, see it for the sad state of affairs it is and are not swayed by the partisans of a particular horse shedding their crocodile tears about the contextually modest imposts the animal receives.

[joanied]

Campo had Gleaming Light and Boone the Great when I was around--between semesters at school .

Al Shwizer galloped for him . Mary " Mike " Ryan did as well.

I had more trouble with Al than John .

I am vaguely into the dressage show horse scene, but Nikki has shown Western extensively.

I kept my OTTB at a show horse barn, and worked off his keep and lessons.

Frankel was still at Aqueduct back then, with a bunch of claimers . My best friend and I worked for him, and ocassionally hung out with him .

We met his parents in Far Rockaway--Bobby was a character even then .

We also worked for Roger Laurin and Tommy Walsh-, and always got hired together .Charlsie Cantey was galloping for Tommy then , and he had Bert and Diana Firestone's string, as well as jumpers.

We were just a bunch of school kids working the track summers, and getting into all kinds of mischief .

MyGod, Al Shwizer...beleive me, you ain't the only one had 'trouble' from Al...but he sure could gallop a horse...he was good friends with my ex, and everyone knew Al...
didn't want to say that Bobby was already over at the Big A...wheelin' & dealin'...I think if I were to walk in a barn over at Aqueduct, I might see Bobby walking down the shed...

well, better not get into a nostalic conversation...I was graduated from HS when I started working there...first trainer I worked for was Ira Handford...last one was Buddy Hirsch...with many in between...heavy sigh:)

[FenceBored]

IT'S OFFICIAL! :jump:

Weights for the Vanity (http://hollywoodpark.com/file_download/1539/vanity_wts.pdf)(the four mentioned as probables):

129 Zenyatta
120 St. Trinians
114 Will o Way
112 Miss Silver Brook

[Hedevar]

IT'S OFFICIAL! :jump:

Weights for the Vanity (http://hollywoodpark.com/file_download/1539/vanity_wts.pdf)(the four mentioned as probables):

129 Zenyatta
120 St. Trinians
114 Will o Way
112 Miss Silver Brook





The weights are ludicrous. If Panza had given Zenyatta a legitimate weight she would not have run and Hollywood would have been stuck with a whole lot of bobbleheads not to mention a small crowd. Do you think her connections have any juice?

[WinterTriangle]

Hedevar, what weight do you think Zen should get? Azeri gave about 8-18 lbs.

Do you think that was too little? Was she a lesser horse than Zen?

[letswastemoney]

I'll take St. Trinians at those weights. Should be a fun race to watch.

The great Zenyatta vs. the mare with the crooked style of running ;)

[born2ride]

2010 2009 Lifetime HOL
129 Zenyatta 2-2 5-5 16-16 6-6
120 St. Trinians 3-2 2-2 12-7 1-1
114 Will o Way 1-0 7-1 13-3 3-0
112 Miss Silver Brook 3-1 11-1 14-2 5-0

A 9lb difference between Zen and the only other mare that has won at HOL which was an allowance race. Yep, weights seem wacked as usual for a handicap at HOL with Zen running.

[Hedevar]

Hedevar, what weight do you think Zen should get? Azeri gave about 8-18 lbs.

Do you think that was too little? Was she a lesser horse than Zen?

As I recall Azeri carried 127 and 125 in her Vanity wins against larger fields. Azeri was not a two time Breeders Cup Champion. Zenyatta is running against a smaller and easier field and therefore deserves more weight.

[Spalding No!]

As I recall Azeri carried 127 and 125 in her Vanity wins against larger fields. Azeri was not a two time Breeders Cup Champion. Zenyatta is running against a smaller and easier field and therefore deserves more weight.

Not to mention that Azeri was facing multiple Grade 1 winners Affluent and Starrer in several of her victories.

In fact, Affluent carried 1 lb more than Azeri in the '02 Apple Blossom. Next out with Affluent in the field (the Milady), she picked up 5 lbs and won. In the Vanity, also with Affluent, she picked up 3 lbs. Affluent was 2nd in each of these races and received weight for each successive start.

Note that Zenyatta does not pick up a single pound relative to horses from this year's Santa Margarita that are also nominated to the Vanity (ie Made For Magic and Dance To My Tune).

[Hedevar]

The easiest possible manner would be, instead of having Zenyatta bobbleheads, make Made For Magic, Lethal Heat, and Third Dawn bobbleheads , tie them to Zenyatta's tail and let her rip.

Not only will she show some new versatility by going wire-to-wire, but may also be spooked into breaking a track record.

Either that, or change her silks to represent the Stars And Stripes and have her run against only horses that sport the name "Washington General".

I'm showing my age but if we bring back the Generals we'll have to bring back Red Klotz.

[Zenyatta To Crush]

I don't think graded stakes races should be handicapped by weights. I think ALL graded races should be equal weights and may the best horse win. I don't think female horses should get a weight break against males either...every horse should carry the same at this high of level.

I think its bad for racing to have superstar horses carry much more than the weaker competition. Go ahead and assign different weights for the lower level races, but not the graded races....just my opinion.

[cj]

I don't think graded stakes races should be handicapped by weights. I think ALL graded races should be equal weights and may the best horse win. I don't think female horses should get a weight break against males either...every horse should carry the same at this high of level.

I think its bad for racing to have superstar horses carry much more than the weaker competition. Go ahead and assign different weights for the lower level races, but not the graded races....just my opinion.

I happen to agree, but since those aren't the rules it made no sense to give this horse less than 132. The 129 assigned is yet another joke in this sport.

[Hedevar]

I don't think graded stakes races should be handicapped by weights. I think ALL graded races should be equal weights and may the best horse win. I don't think female horses should get a weight break against males either...every horse should carry the same at this high of level.

I think its bad for racing to have superstar horses carry much more than the weaker competition. Go ahead and assign different weights for the lower level races, but not the graded races....just my opinion.

Bye-Bye Handicaps, WFA and allowances for gender.

[FEARTHECHOMP]

Well this should set up for her for sure...The other 3 are speed latent....

[WinterTriangle]

Was reading about Jerkens recalling a remark by JH Whitney about weights: " 'Do you realize they put 136 on Tom Fool for the Brooklyn Handicap?'" Jerkens said. Isn't it wonderful that they think so much of my horse? "


Obviously, you must think a lot of Zenyatta since you want to "honor" her with historically high weight. :)


Since you don't think 13 to 19 pounds is enough to spot, and want to change that, what do you want them to be?


And---of course you won't mind if Zenyatta also receives a star in the history books, for doing so?

[cj]

She carried 129 I believe last year and has accomplished a lot more since. The spread last year was 13 to 16 pounds. This years tomato cans may even be more dented than last years.

Of course I think a lot of Zenyatta...just not as much as some others. Races like this aren't going to change anyone's impressions.

[FEARTHECHOMP]

Zenyatta is 17'2 hands and 1350 lbs you can strap 150 in that freak and she wouldnt know the difference...

[cj]

Well this should set up for her for sure...The other 3 are speed latent....

speed-laden?

[FEARTHECHOMP]

Yea....Spelling was not my best subject....lol

[Hedevar]

Was reading about Jerkens recalling a remark by JH Whitney about weights: " 'Do you realize they put 136 on Tom Fool for the Brooklyn Handicap?'" Jerkens said. Isn't it wonderful that they think so much of my horse? "

Obviously, you must think a lot of Zenyatta since you want to "honor" her with historically high weight. :)

Since you don't think 13 to 19 pounds is enough to spot, and want to change that, what do you want them to be?

And---of course you won't mind if Zenyatta also receives a star in the history books, for doing so?



Pardon me but she is spotting from 9 to 17 pounds not from 13 to 19 pounds. Additionally Zenyatta is absolutely no Tom Fool.

[cj]

Pardon me but she is spotting from 9 to 17 pounds not from 13 to 19 pounds. Additionally Zenyatta is absolutely no Tom Fool.

I didn't check, but I should have known to do so. A lot of fiction pops up when the fans get Zenyattamentia.

[cj]

Yea....Spelling was not my best subject....lol No worries, I looked it up. ;)

[Spalding No!]

Obviously, you must think a lot of Zenyatta since you want to "honor" her with historically high weight. :)


Who knew? Some of the "haters" think that Zenyatta is a great horse but is being campaigned like a Rhodes Scholar in a kindergarten class.

Other just announced events on Bobblehead Vanity Day:

Sir Edmund Hillary will attempt to scale the jungle gym in the children's play ground.

Mario Andretti will be head valet in the parking lot.

Bobby Flay will man the $1 hot dog stand.

Monty Roberts will in charge of the pony rides in the infield.

British Petroleum will halt cleanup in the Gulf Of Mexico to pick up discarded tickets after the races.

U2 will be playing mariachi music in the paddock.

The sun will be doing the lighting for the men's bathroom at Gate 4.

[letswastemoney]

The competition is "heating up."

"There is a chance that Third Dawn (116), Wynning Ride (115), and Miss Pleasant (112) could join the race if the field remains small."

[Dahoss9698]

I didn't check, but I should have known to do so.

I just assume it's not correct when I read certain posters. Much easier that way.

[Nikki1997]

All of you "well informed" handicappers, please bet against this mare. Please, put all your money on everyone but Zenyatta. Load up against her. All of you naysayers need to bet the farm against her. Put your children on the line against her. LOL.

[Dahoss9698]

All of you "well informed" handicappers, please bet against this mare. Please, put all your money on everyone but Zenyatta. Load up against her. All of you naysayers need to bet the farm against her. Put your children on the line against her. LOL.

Will either of your personalitites be betting the race?

[cj]

All of you "well informed" handicappers, please bet against this mare. Please, put all your money on everyone but Zenyatta. Load up against her. All of you naysayers need to bet the farm against her. Put your children on the line against her. LOL.

I bet horses, not punching bags.

[Nikki1997]

I bet horses, not punching bags.

Fine. You get a gold star.

[Spalding No!]

All of you "well informed" handicappers, please bet against this mare. Please, put all your money on everyone but Zenyatta. Load up against her. All of you naysayers need to bet the farm against her. Put your children on the line against her. LOL.

See...now don't you wish the racing secretary did his job and put some significant weight on the horse?

[letswastemoney]

All of you "well informed" handicappers, please bet against this mare. Please, put all your money on everyone but Zenyatta. Load up against her. All of you naysayers need to bet the farm against her. Put your children on the line against her. LOL.
You might regret posting this if St. Trinians wins.

[BluegrassProf]

All of you "well informed" handicappers, please bet against this mare. Please, put all your money on everyone but Zenyatta. Load up against her. All of you naysayers need to bet the farm against her. Put your children on the line against her. LOL.:D

Seems you might be missing the point.

[FenceBored]

Alright, let's play "assign weights like a California track." :jump:

Somebody, anybody, explain to me how St. Trinians gets 120lbs. She won the Paseana Hdcp carrying 116. She moves up in class for the Santa Maria Hdcp (G2) so her increase off the win is offset by her break for stepping up, giving us the same 116. She wins the Santa Maria and for the Big Cap gets 113 [raced +1 over, the chart and running line say 114] (which would be 118 minus a 5lb distaff allowance), a 2lb. increase. She gets beaten: 6th by 6.75L. Soooooo, for the Vanity, she picks up another 2lbs? :bang: It's not that I think the weight is too much for her (far from it), it just doesn't make sense. Unless ...
“The weight was pretty much what we were expecting,’’ said Shirreffs.
-- http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/57388/zenyatta-assigned-129-pounds-for-vanity
Of course it was John. You told him what to give you and the largest spread-to-next-highest-weight you'd tolerate. Mmmmm, there ain't nothin' like dat good ol' fashioned home cooking.

[Hedevar]

Alright, let's play "assign weights like a California track." :jump:











Somebody, anybody, explain to me how St. Trinians gets 120lbs. She won the Paseana Hdcp carrying 116. She moves up in class for the Santa Maria Hdcp (G2) so her increase off the win is offset by her break for stepping up, giving us the same 116. She wins the Santa Maria and for the Big Cap gets 113 [raced +1 over, the chart and running line say 114] (which would be 118 minus a 5lb distaff allowance), a 2lb. increase. She gets beaten: 6th by 6.75L. Soooooo, for the Vanity, she picks up another 2lbs? :bang: It's not that I think the weight is too much for her (far from it), it just doesn't make sense. Unless ...“The weight was pretty much what we were expecting,’’ said Shirreffs.





-- http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/57388/zenyatta-assigned-129-pounds-for-vanity





Of course it was John. You told him what to give you and the largest spread-to-next-highest-weight you'd tolerate. Mmmmm, there ain't nothin' like dat good ol' fashioned home cooking.






Excellent analysis, lets see what happens if she travels before the BCC, which I doubt. I am not convinced Sherriffs will take a chance in a handicap away from home and I have real doubts that she will show up at Churchill. By the time the Vanity is run the year will be half over. Some girls just love that California sun.

[castaway01]

All of you "well informed" handicappers, please bet against this mare. Please, put all your money on everyone but Zenyatta. Load up against her. All of you naysayers need to bet the farm against her. Put your children on the line against her. LOL.

I'm impressed that someone could miss the point so badly.

[PaceAdvantage]

Let's give full disclosure here. Certain inappropriate comments and personal attacks will always be removed while others will be left or encouraged. It all depends on who posts it and what topic they are discussing

Pace can you explain to me the difference between this thread and the one that was deleted instantly that rachel will be running in claiming races soon? How about the "rachel's connections bob and weave" that you threatened to close because of repetitiveness?No, all inappropriate comments will be deleted. If you would like to apply for a job as moderator (the hours suck and the pay is nonexistent), then YOU can call the shots as to what is inappropriate. Otherwise, you're stuck with me, Bill and CJ. If you don't like it...

The difference is, this thread is not another knock on Zenyatta...it is a knock on the horses she is being forced to run against...the "rachel claiming race" had no redeeming qualities whatsoever. At least this thread was somewhat humorous. If you disagree, again, feel free to drop an application off after business hours.

And the "bob and weave" thread is still open, is it not?

[GaryG]

And the "bob and weave" thread is still open, is it not?Well, it is actually "bob and weeve". Anyhoo, I have not had much to say about all of this Rachel and Zenyatta business. My feeling is that Rachel was the superior filly/mare last year and deserved the HOY. I believe that Zenyatta's connections want to waltz through 2010 as easily as possible and get the HOY as a lifetime achievement award. I am going to start a thread about her connections ducking Trappe Shot and Quality Road.

[bisket]

pace has gotta do better with his spellin ;)

[classhandicapper]

I'm one of the biggest Zenyatta fans in the world but I am quite scared of this race. Zenyatta's worst two races, in MY opinion, were both of her Vanity races. Those are the two races where it looked like she was spinning her wheels a bit.

St Trinians is a solid horse and if its like a 4 horse field and Z has to carry like 10 more pounds than her...than anything can happen.

She's also had some slower workouts lately, but I'm disregarding them because they keep working her with a slow maiden and they always work her so she finished only a few lengths in front of her workmate.

I still predict a victory but I sure hope Mike Smith doesn't get overly confident and find himself in another Clement Hirsch situation.


I agree 100%.

I also noticed that she hasn't been working as well as she has in the past and am not 100% convinced she's at her best right now. In fact, I may be willing to bet she's not. IMO the combination of being less than 100%, a slow place, and 129 pounds will make her the most vulnerable she's been in her career other than in the Breeder's Cup.

(the 129 is like assigning a colt 132 or 134 - in that ballpark)

[thaskalos]

It might be that a Zenyatta loss is exactly what is needed to shake her connections up a little and make them realize that, given her competition so far, her spot in racing's immortality is not yet assured...

I just hope that the horse comes out of the race in great shape...win or lose.

I want to see her dominate...of course!

[rwwupl]

I think St. Trinians is "real"...lookout "Z"

[andymays]

I think St. Trinians is "real"...lookout "Z"


I believe the connections are pretty sure they can beat Z.

[Show Me the Wire]

Anything Mitchell is currently putting on the track has to be respected. Look at the great training job he did with New Bay yesterday.

[classhandicapper]

I believe the connections are pretty sure they can beat Z.

Did you read anything?

I haven't been following her since they took a shot at the SA Handicap.

[andymays]

Did you read anything?

I haven't been following her since they took a shot at the SA Handicap.

No, but if I'm not mistaken last year when they ran in the SA Handicap they stated something to the effect that they thought they had a shot to beat her. I think she'll fire her best shot against Zenyatta.

[Greyfox]

I

(the 129 is like assigning a colt 132 or 134 - in that ballpark)

Even a train will stop if enough weight is added.

[classhandicapper]

No, but if I'm not mistaken last year when they ran in the SA Handicap they stated something to the effect that they thought they had a shot to beat her. I think she'll fire her best shot against Zenyatta.

I think she's very good.

She's not anywhere near good as a peak Zenyatta, but in a small field, with a slow pace and positional advantage, a big break in the weights, at Hollywood, and against what I suspect is a slightly below par Zenyatta, I think she has a huge shot to snap the streak.

[WinterTriangle]

Every horse is vulnerable in some race, sometime. Regardless of conditions, weights, etc.

Last year was the "year of the filly" as they called it. I expect this year will be anti-climatic in some ways, for both Zenyatta and Rachel.

Unless anyone thinks Rachel could "top" what she did last year. That would be close to impossible, since really, she was flawless and made history.

Ditto, Zenyatta has already made history, and that she could change in a few months what put her where she is at 6 years old is unlikely.

I look forward to seeing them both, of course, but nothing they do this year will change my high opinion of them. Because most of it, in either camp, comes down to hair-splitting, perference, personal values about what makes a good horse in one's eyes, etc.

Like I said in off topic, the same stuff exists in tennis, with different surfaces, campaigns, statistics, awards, etc. :bang:

[Headbanger]

The simple fact is that it is a crock of sh!t that Zenyatta gets exactly the same weight as last year in this year's Vanity after winning the Breeders Cup Classic and 2 more Graded Stakes wins this year whereas her opponents simply keep losing in allowance level races and really weak graded stakes.

Simply put, in a handicap race, the Track Handicapper should be seeking to assign weights so that all the starters will finish at the same time (aka a dead heat) to win, and that's opinion as well as the Thoroughbred Times Almanac's definition of a handicap race. Tell me how Zenyatta being weighed at 129 makes this a handicap race with some crappy tomato cans outside of possibly St. Trinians.

[Cratos]

I am a big Zenyatta fan, but her staying undefeated against “diluted competition” is not an attraction for me. A better attraction is her being put in very competitive races and staying undefeated or being defeated.

Man O’War, Secretariat, Dr. Fager, etc are considered to be three of the best thoroughbreds to ever run on the North American continent and what do they have in common?

The answer is that all three have been defeated one time or another. Therefore if Zenyatta goes down to defeat in the Vanity it will change nothing about her greatness.

Also, if she shows up for the BC Classic and Pletcher has Quality Road ready; in my opinion Zenyatta is defeated because I believe before the year is over and if QR stays healthy he will be a monster to be reckon with by November.

[cj]

I am a big Zenyatta fan, but her staying undefeated against “diluted competition” is not an attraction for me. A better attraction is her being put in very competitive races and staying undefeated or being defeated.

Man O’War, Secretariat, Dr. Fager, etc are considered to be three of the best thoroughbreds to ever run on the North American continent and what do they have in common?

The answer is that all three have been defeated one time or another. Therefore if Zenyatta goes down to defeat in the Vanity it will change nothing about her greatness.

Also, if she shows up for the BC Classic and Pletcher has Quality Road ready; in my opinion Zenyatta is defeated because I believe before the year is over and if QR stays healthy he will be a monster to be reckon with by November.

Ding, ding, ding, we have ourselves a winner. While maybe some Rachel fans go overboard, at least part of it is that her owner was willing to takes chances and try races that were above what is expected from a good horse.

[thaskalos]

The upsetting thing about Zenyatta's connections is that - when they brought her out of retirement for her 2010 campaign - they stated that they are bringing her back so "more of her fans will be able to see her", implying that they would travel more. One trip to Oaklawn is not enough to validate that statement.

It now appears that they are more concerned with preserving her unbeaten record...than her spot in racing's immortality.

[DeanT]

I agree 100%.

I also noticed that she hasn't been working as well as she has in the past and am not 100% convinced she's at her best right now. In fact, I may be willing to bet she's not. IMO the combination of being less than 100%, a slow place, and 129 pounds will make her the most vulnerable she's been in her career other than in the Breeder's Cup.

(the 129 is like assigning a colt 132 or 134 - in that ballpark)
I'm thinking of taking a poke against her as well.

[joanied]

Does someone know when the draw will be for the Vanity? Is it on Wens.?
With all the probable starters, I just want to see what Zenyatta will be up against.
her last work was rather slow for her, I wonder if it was by design or what? Has anyone out there in CA. seen her on the track in the morning...how does she look in her gallops?

[miesque]

Does someone know when the draw will be for the Vanity? Is it on Wens.?
With all the probable starters, I just want to see what Zenyatta will be up against.
her last work was rather slow for her, I wonder if it was by design or what? Has anyone out there in CA. seen her on the track in the morning...how does she look in her gallops?

Entries for the Vanity as well as post position draw are tomorrow.

[delayjf]

It now appears that they are more concerned with preserving her unbeaten record...than her spot in racing's immortality.

Agreed, it would appear they learned nothing from last year. If QR goes undefeated into the BC looking dominate, then there is a good chance that Z will lose HOR honors to QR. Lets assume that QR wins three more grade 1 races going into the BC while Z stays undefeated in CA. IMO the only way Z wins HOR is if both horses run a great race with Z prevailing. If QR runs a sub par race in the BC, voters will forgive the bad race and vote for him based on the strength of his campaign.

(the 129 is like assigning a colt 132 or 134 - in that ballpark)
The one mitigating factor in Z's favor with regards to the weight she is assigned is her size. As big as she is, I don't think it will affect her the way it would a normal sized mare.

[thaskalos]

It's hard to imagine Zenyatta staying unbeaten until november, defeating Quality Road in the BC Classic...and then losing out for HOY...

[ghostyapper]

Lets assume that QR wins three more grade 1 races going into the BC while Z stays undefeated in CA.


According to pletcher he'll only race 2 more times before the bc.

[delayjf]

It's hard to imagine Zenyatta staying unbeaten until november, defeating Quality Road in the BC Classic...and then losing out for HOY...

No doubt it will be controversal, but if Quality Road wins his next two starts in dominating style with high beyer numbers and Zenyatta just keeps beating the quality of Mares she's been beating before - I could see it happening.

[gm10]

Decent bunch:

http://www.pacefigures.com/images/vanityfield.jpg

I think a smaller can (tomato puree) beat the horse of the year a few months ago.

[gm10]

I'm talking about the horses she will be facing.

Yes - but why always downplay her accomplishments. It's like a bull and a red flag. It's certainly not the work of a mature, rational racing fan.

[gm10]

Ding, ding, ding, we have ourselves a winner. While maybe some Rachel fans go overboard, at least part of it is that her owner was willing to takes chances and try races that were above what is expected from a good horse.

Yeah, she was awesome in the Classic.

[gm10]

It's hard to imagine Zenyatta staying unbeaten until november, defeating Quality Road in the BC Classic...and then losing out for HOY...

I think HOY really shouldn't be a concern anymore. She's one for the ages. Quality Road is a fine animal, too.

[joanied]

Entries for the Vanity as well as post position draw are tomorrow.

Thank you, Miesque:)

I'm already getting antsy...nervous for both Z and RA...I want them both to win...DUH.
Bet Rachel stays with her own sex this time out...she's traing great, but me thinks they will try and play it safe this time...some defections for the Foster, but Macho Again and General Quarters are in there...Macho may need a race, but General Quarters is probably going to run way good.
Zenyatta, I don't like her last work...was it by design? If all the probables go, she'll be facing one of her biggest fields...and St. Trinian's and Zardana worry me. No doubt, Mike won't take this lightly...no mistakes this time, her talent might not get her there if he screws up...which he won't ;)

[Pick6]

Yeah, she was awesome in the Classic.
AB was even better.

[andymays]

http://hollywoodpark.com/news/st-trinians-set-for-vanity-versus-zenyatta

Excerpt:

After St Trinians won the Grade 1 Santa Maria Handicap at Santa Anita on Feb. 13, outfinishing Breeders’ Cup Ladies Classic winner Life Is Sweet, trainer Mike Mitchell gave serious thought to running against unbeaten superstar Zenyatta in the Santa Margarita Handicap the following month.

Mitchell weighed his options and decided to take his chances for more money against an undistinguished lineup of males in the $750,000 Santa Anita Handicap. She started as the 3-1 favorite, but never threatened in the Big `Cap, finishing sixth.

Three months later St Trinians is scheduled to have a first meeting with Zenyatta in the $250,000 Grade I Vanity Handicap over 1 1/8 miles of Cushion Track on June 13 at Hollywood Park.

“She had kind of a rough trip in the Santa Anita Handicap,” said Mitchell from his stable office Sunday. “Maybe it would have been different with a smaller field. I decided to give her a break after that. That was then. Now is now. We’re all ready.”

St Trinians, a 5-year-old English-bred mare, won all four of her United States starts prior to the Big ’Cap after arriving from England. She has won seven of 12 starts and earned $268,587.

“Zenyatta is a great mare, maybe the greatest mare I’ve ever seen,” said Mitchell. “I’m not running against her because I don’t respect her.”

Martin Garcia will ride St Trinians for the first time.

[FenceBored]

http://hollywoodpark.com/news/st-trinians-set-for-vanity-versus-zenyatta

Excerpt:

After St Trinians won the Grade 1 Santa Maria Handicap at Santa Anita on Feb. 13, outfinishing Breeders’ Cup Ladies Classic winner Life Is Sweet, trainer Mike Mitchell gave serious thought to running against unbeaten superstar Zenyatta in the Santa Margarita Handicap the following month.

Thank you, Hollywood Park: The Santa Maria is a Grade 2, not a Grade 1.

[Pick6]

http://hollywoodpark.com/news/st-trinians-set-for-vanity-versus-zenyatta

Excerpt:

After St Trinians won the Grade 1 Santa Maria Handicap at Santa Anita on Feb. 13, outfinishing Breeders’ Cup Ladies Classic winner Life Is Sweet, trainer Mike Mitchell gave serious thought to running against unbeaten superstar Zenyatta in the Santa Margarita Handicap the following month.

Mitchell weighed his options and decided to take his chances for more money against an undistinguished lineup of males in the $750,000 Santa Anita Handicap. She started as the 3-1 favorite, but never threatened in the Big `Cap, finishing sixth.

Three months later St Trinians is scheduled to have a first meeting with Zenyatta in the $250,000 Grade I Vanity Handicap over 1 1/8 miles of Cushion Track on June 13 at Hollywood Park.

“She had kind of a rough trip in the Santa Anita Handicap,” said Mitchell from his stable office Sunday. “Maybe it would have been different with a smaller field. I decided to give her a break after that. That was then. Now is now. We’re all ready.”

St Trinians, a 5-year-old English-bred mare, won all four of her United States starts prior to the Big ’Cap after arriving from England. She has won seven of 12 starts and earned $268,587.

“Zenyatta is a great mare, maybe the greatest mare I’ve ever seen,” said Mitchell. “I’m not running against her because I don’t respect her.”

Martin Garcia will ride St Trinians for the first time.
She was in a 4 horse photo for 4th in the SA cap; can't recall a f/m favored in that race.

Of course we all know she is a complete tomato can like all the others, and adds nothing to the Vanitry

[miesque]

Thank you, Miesque:)

I'm already getting antsy...nervous for both Z and RA...I want them both to win...DUH.
Bet Rachel stays with her own sex this time out...she's traing great, but me thinks they will try and play it safe this time...some defections for the Foster, but Macho Again and General Quarters are in there...Macho may need a race, but General Quarters is probably going to run way good.
Zenyatta, I don't like her last work...was it by design? If all the probables go, she'll be facing one of her biggest fields...and St. Trinian's and Zardana worry me. No doubt, Mike won't take this lightly...no mistakes this time, her talent might not get her there if he screws up...which he won't ;)

Joanie - I was not thinking when I responded to you so I wrong about the date, tomorrow is entries for the Californian on Saturday and I am just so used to feature stakes being on Saturday that I am conditioned to respond Wednesday for Saturday, but the race is Sunday so hence entries for the Vanity on Thursday. Sorry, my brain must already be on vacation even though I still have one more day to go.:blush:

[Hedevar]

I think HOY really shouldn't be a concern anymore. She's one for the ages. Quality Road is a fine animal, too.

Considering the horses she has defeated don't you think calling Zenyatta one for the ages is a bit of an overstatement? Actually a rather large overstatement.

[BluegrassProf]

She's taking yet another step, to quote another member, "along the beaten path towards...the immortality that is Pepper's Pride."

Personally, were I in their shoes and plotting Campaign 2009 Redux (as it certainly looks so far), I'd be looking long and hard at HOY...history, methinks, won't be so kind.



(Of course, if given the choice, we all just want something better.....bigger and better from Zen certainly, but also from Rachel, from QR, from every horse on the track. Hard to argue with that.)

[keithw84]

Considering the horses she has defeated don't you think calling Zenyatta one for the ages is a bit of an overstatement? Actually a rather large overstatement.

I agree the connections have been conservative/boring in where they have placed her for about the last year and a half... which would be fine if they weren't so concerned about her legacy (as became apparent with the bitter comments after HOY was announced).

Still, I think she is one for the ages. Aren't her accomplishments pretty comparable to those of Personal Ensign?

[Hedevar]

I agree the connections have been conservative/boring in where they have placed her for about the last year and a half... which would be fine if they weren't so concerned about her legacy (as became apparent with the bitter comments after HOY was announced).

Still, I think she is one for the ages. Aren't her accomplishments pretty comparable to those of Personal Ensign?

Actually no. Personal Ensign beat Gulch in the Whitney Handicap on the dirt at Saratoga and defeated a Kentucky Derby winner in a classic race. Zenyatta beat a bunch of turf horses and horses that did not appreciate Pro-Ride in the BCC. The fact is Zenyatta could not even warm up Buckpasser, Dr. Fager, Secretariat, Ruffian, Seattle Slew, Affirmed, Spectacular Bid or some others to numerous to mention. Tosmah a filly from the early 60s would have had no problem with Zenyatta. What we have is a group of people who want to believe Zenyatta is great and really have not seen many truly great thoroughbreds. If you have followed this website you know that all the good horses have left California and there really is no one to run against. That is where Zenyatta races and it is a shame.

[joanied]

http://hollywoodpark.com/news/st-trinians-set-for-vanity-versus-zenyatta

Excerpt:

After St Trinians won the Grade 1 Santa Maria Handicap at Santa Anita on Feb. 13, outfinishing Breeders’ Cup Ladies Classic winner Life Is Sweet, trainer Mike Mitchell gave serious thought to running against unbeaten superstar Zenyatta in the Santa Margarita Handicap the following month.

Mitchell weighed his options and decided to take his chances for more money against an undistinguished lineup of males in the $750,000 Santa Anita Handicap. She started as the 3-1 favorite, but never threatened in the Big `Cap, finishing sixth.

Three months later St Trinians is scheduled to have a first meeting with Zenyatta in the $250,000 Grade I Vanity Handicap over 1 1/8 miles of Cushion Track on June 13 at Hollywood Park.

“She had kind of a rough trip in the Santa Anita Handicap,” said Mitchell from his stable office Sunday. “Maybe it would have been different with a smaller field. I decided to give her a break after that. That was then. Now is now. We’re all ready.”

St Trinians, a 5-year-old English-bred mare, won all four of her United States starts prior to the Big ’Cap after arriving from England. She has won seven of 12 starts and earned $268,587.

“Zenyatta is a great mare, maybe the greatest mare I’ve ever seen,” said Mitchell. “I’m not running against her because I don’t respect her.”

Martin Garcia will ride St Trinians for the first time.

I was already scared of St. Trinian's...with Garcia up, ohoh...I do beleive this mare & Zardana are going to be awful tough...seems everything Martin Garcia gest on turns to gold...he did a fantastic job in the Belmont with Game on Dude...Zenyatta will get 317....but she may have to work for it.
I can't wait until tomorrow and the draw.

[joanied]

Joanie - I was not thinking when I responded to you so I wrong about the date, tomorrow is entries for the Californian on Saturday and I am just so used to feature stakes being on Saturday that I am conditioned to respond Wednesday for Saturday, but the race is Sunday so hence entries for the Vanity on Thursday. Sorry, my brain must already be on vacation even though I still have one more day to go.:blush:

Crap...didn't see your post until I posted how I can't wait for tomorrow ...one more day to agonize over this :faint: ...not to worry, miesque...your brain is just on vacation time...and I hope you have a wonderful one:ThmbUp:

[classhandicapper]

I'm thinking of taking a poke against her as well.

If people are upset that Zenyatta is carrying the same weight as in last year's Vanity, I can understand that. But the 129 should at least be put in perspective. It's the equivalent of 134 for an older horse. I can't remember the last time any horse carried 134 in a Grade 1, but it might be Seattle Slew:lol:.

I also think St. Trinians is being MONSTROUSLY UNDERRATED.

St Trinians has been laid off for awhile. So there's no guarantee she'll be as sharp in the Vanity as she was earlier. But if she is, I think a very good case can be made that she's the clear cut second best mare in America unless/until Rachel recovers her best form.

I think St Trinians is getting an incredible break in the weights relative to her ability because she has yet to accumulate the long impressive overall resume and Grade 1 status that tends to be part of what guides the weights for a handicap.

If I owned Zenyatta and looked at those weights, I'd get up early in the morning to see how St Trinians was training. Because if she looked good I'd take another flight and look for an easier spot against Rachel Alexandra. :lol:

[Kimsus]

If people are upset that Zenyatta is carrying the same weight as in last year's Vanity, I can understand that. But the 129 should at least be put in perspective. It's the equivalent of 134 for an older horse. I can't remember the last time any horse carried 134 in a Grade 1, but it might be Seattle Slew:lol:.

I also think St. Trinians is being MONSTROUSLY UNDERRATED.

St Trinians has been laid off for awhile. So there's no guarantee she'll be as sharp in the Vanity as she was earlier. But if she is, I think a very good case can be made that she's the clear cut second best mare in America unless/until Rachel recovers her best form.

I think St Trinians is getting an incredible break in the weights relative to her ability because she has yet to accumulate the long impressive overall resume and Grade 1 status that tends to be part of what guides the weights for a handicap.

If I owned Zenyatta and looked at those weights, I'd get up early in the morning to see how St Trinians was training. Because if she looked good I'd take another flight and look for an easier spot against Rachel Alexandra. :lol:

Ofcourse, that's what the pro-Rachel crowd wants everyone to believe, they know their horse is winless and are grasping at anything. Now they are setting the table if Zenyatta wins, she will receive little if no credit for beating her. If Z beat Personal Ensign, there would be a built in excuse. That's how outrageous it has gotten.

But anyone who is honest that has watched St. Trinians races since she has come to California, will know she is a very good filly on that surface, and she does propose a significant challenge for any filly/mare that would race against her in the Vanity.

[Dahoss9698]

Ofcourse, that's what the pro-Rachel crowd wants everyone to believe, they know their horse is winless and are grasping at anything. Now they are setting the table if Zenyatta wins, she will receive little if no credit for beating her. If Z beat Personal Ensign, there would be a built in excuse. That's how outrageous it has gotten.

But anyone who is honest that has watched St. Trinians races since she has come to California, will know she is a very good filly on that surface, and she does propose a significant challenge for any filly/mare that would race against her in the Vanity.

Of course she provides a challenge. However it doesn't mean the weights are anything more than pandering to Team Zenyatta. They whined about weight 2 months ago and hence, the same weight as last year. It's basic stuff.

It would help these discussions along if you could at least speak honestly about stuff. Instead of just trolling from board to board.

[Kimsus]

Of course she provides a challenge. However it doesn't mean the weights are anything more than pandering to Team Zenyatta. They whined about weight 2 months ago and hence, the same weight as last year. It's basic stuff.

It would help these discussions along if you could at least speak honestly about stuff. Instead of just trolling from board to board.

This is a honest discussion, I know you respect her St Trinians, and frankly it is a very interesting race due to the lack of pace. I personally don't think St. Trinians will be a great price but given the way the pace dynamics are shaping up and the weight spread, and analysing it as a player rather than a fan if I got 5-1 on St. Trinians I would take it right now. Mitchell likes to maintain a high win % and he wouldn't enter if he didn't like his chances.

[FenceBored]

If people are upset that Zenyatta is carrying the same weight as in last year's Vanity, I can understand that. But the 129 should at least be put in perspective. It's the equivalent of 134 for an older horse. I can't remember the last time any horse carried 134 in a Grade 1, but it might be Seattle Slew:lol:.


No, it's the equivalent of 129 for an older horse. If you're running within the distaff division you're toting your "real weight," stepping into open company you catch a break.


I also think St. Trinians is being MONSTROUSLY UNDERRATED.

St Trinians has been laid off for awhile. So there's no guarantee she'll be as sharp in the Vanity as she was earlier. But if she is, I think a very good case can be made that she's the clear cut second best mare in America unless/until Rachel recovers her best form.


Cause, there aren't any other multiple G2, or G1 winning route mares out there. :rolleyes: She's got the potential, but she needs to prove she's the real deal. The Big Cap didn't help her case much. 'Oh, but you toss that race, and ...' Yeah, yeah, yeah.


I think St Trinians is getting an incredible break in the weights relative to her ability because she has yet to accumulate the long impressive overall resume and Grade 1 status that tends to be part of what guides the weights for a handicap.


She's toting more than she has in any prior US hdcp race (picking up weight off a 6.75L loss), and you think she's coming in light? Underweight Zenyatta and overweight (relatively speaking) her nearest rival and that's making it a fair race?



If I owned Zenyatta and looked at those weights, I'd get up early in the morning to see how St Trinians was training. Because if she looked good I'd take another flight and look for an easier spot against Rachel Alexandra. :lol:

I don't know, those Rockies are a bear. :rolleyes: :lol:

[Dahoss9698]

This is a honest discussion, I know you respect her St Trinians, and frankly it is a very interesting race due to the lack of pace. I personally don't think St. Trinians will be a great price but given the way the pace dynamics are shaping up and the weight spread, and analysing it as a player rather than a fan if I got 5-1 on St. Trinians I would take it right now. Mitchell likes to maintain a high win % and he wouldn't enter if he didn't like his chances.

I agree. It is an interesting race and St Trinians will be the best horse Zenyatta has faced this year. That is, if St Trinians is the same horse she was before the Big Cap.

But I still think the weights are ridiculous, considering she carried the exact same weight last year.

[gm10]

Considering the horses she has defeated don't you think calling Zenyatta one for the ages is a bit of an overstatement? Actually a rather large overstatement.

She has made a mockery of females, beat the best in the wold last year, has won in 4 different calendar years (of which a gazillion G1's), has never been defeated, has won on dirt and synthetics, has won against males. If any horse can beat her, they will need to a) show up and b) be something else and c) hope that Zenyatta is getting too old (which will happen one day).

[Hedevar]

I will repeat my answer to Keithw84 when he asked if Zenyatta's accomplishments were pretty comparable to those of Personal Ensign?

Actually no. Personal Ensign beat Gulch in the Whitney Handicap on the dirt at Saratoga and defeated a Kentucky Derby winner in a classic race. Zenyatta beat a bunch of turf horses and horses that did not appreciate Pro-Ride in the BCC. The fact is Zenyatta could not even warm up Buckpasser, Dr. Fager, Secretariat, Ruffian, Seattle Slew, Affirmed, Spectacular Bid or some others to numerous to mention. Tosmah a filly from the early 60s would have had no problem with Zenyatta. What we have is a group of people who want to believe Zenyatta is great and really have not seen many truly great thoroughbreds. If you have followed this website you know that all the good horses have left California and there really is no one to run against. That is where Zenyatta races and it is a shame. I may add that the horses she beat on the dirt were no worldbeaters.

[cj]

She has made a mockery of females, beat the best in the wold last year,

Enough, enough. She DID NOT beat the best in the world last year. When is the last time Gio Ponti beat a good horse? Won a race? She did not beat Rachel. She did not beat Quality Road. She did not beat Sea the Stars.

[letswastemoney]

Zenyatta sure made a mockery out of Anabaa's Creation

YTcTiYuY9AQ

[breezing]

i can't believe the amount of time spent on this subject and the amount of drivel posted by both sides.

[WinterTriangle]

Enough, enough. She DID NOT beat the best in the world last year. When is the last time Gio Ponti beat a good horse? Won a race? She did not beat Rachel. She did not beat Quality Road. She did not beat Sea the Stars.

Why did we give Gio Ponti an award last year?

She did not beat Rachel. She did not beat Quality Road. She did not beat Sea the Stars.

Don't the horses have to enter into, and actually run a race against you in order for you to beat them? ;)


I guess, when asking who Zenyatta beat, one would have to determine who "the best" is. Who IS the "best horse in the world" right now? World thoroughbred rankings for May 2010 has the following list:
QUALITY ROAD
BYWORD
PACO BOY
ZENYATTA
ESKENDEREYA


Last year, at the end of 2009 it was:
Sea the Stars
Goldikova
Rip Van Winkle
Fame and Glory
Zenyatta
(Gio Ponti and Rachel Alexandra were 6th in the world.)

Now: we know we can't trust World thoroughbred rankings, because last year they had Rip Van Winkle, who many here have said was just a tomato can that Zenyatta beat. And they had Gio Ponti, who apparently is also a tomato can.

So, I guess I can't give much credence to their adding Quality Road to the list, either. It seems they add in horses who do not deserve the honors to their top 10 in the world.:confused:

Just curious what "list" you used to come up with STS, QR and Rachel as horses you felt would be useful for Zenyatta to beat.......World thoroughbred rankings or something else, or was that just subjective?



(PS. did anyone have QR to win the BCC? I personally did not, due to coming off that short work and a few other things at the time. Today might be a different story, probably not, as the distance thing worries me a bit for him....not that he definitely can't get it, but that there might be others who can get it better when the time comes.....)

[bisket]

If people are upset that Zenyatta is carrying the same weight as in last year's Vanity, I can understand that. But the 129 should at least be put in perspective. It's the equivalent of 134 for an older horse. I can't remember the last time any horse carried 134 in a Grade 1, but it might be Seattle Slew:lol:.

I also think St. Trinians is being MONSTROUSLY UNDERRATED.

St Trinians has been laid off for awhile. So there's no guarantee she'll be as sharp in the Vanity as she was earlier. But if she is, I think a very good case can be made that she's the clear cut second best mare in America unless/until Rachel recovers her best form.

I think St Trinians is getting an incredible break in the weights relative to her ability because she has yet to accumulate the long impressive overall resume and Grade 1 status that tends to be part of what guides the weights for a handicap.

If I owned Zenyatta and looked at those weights, I'd get up early in the morning to see how St Trinians was training. Because if she looked good I'd take another flight and look for an easier spot against Rachel Alexandra. :lol:
i think trinians has a chance to upset. she's going to be able to control the entire race. the race still isn't playable, but this is no walk in the park for zen. giving all that weight to the controling speed... it will be a good test

[GaryG]

Mitchell is a 25% trainer, but only 13% in graded stakes. He is a claiming trainer and I would not give him a good horse.

[joanied]

Man, I'm getting pretty tired of the 'who has she beat' thing...she beat every one that she's run against...it's never enough :faint:

I agree with da bisket...St. Trinian's should not be taken lightly...I beleive between her and Zardana, Zenyatta may not have her customery walk in the park...I also am a little concerned about her last work, which was rather slow and wonder if that is what Sherriff's wanted...it's been several weeks since her last race, and I would have felt better if she's at least picked it up the last 1/8th (maybe she did? I never read anything about it except that Sherriff's was happy with it)
There is also the fact that great horses like Citation & Cigar could not get that magic #17 during their streaks...so that plays on my mind too.
Yep, she carries the same weight as last year...would some have been happier if they'd added a pound or two...it's not the actual weight, it's the spread....and that makes me nervous.

Go,:jump: Zenyatta, go...it will be an historic and incredibley wonderful moment to see her break the record...I am going to enjoy every second of this...this mare has given 1,000's of people such joy...why can't everyone just go along for this incredible ride... the next Graded Stakes winner to go unbeaten is probably not going to happen for a long time...so I am hanging onto this one and don't wanna let go.

[KinkyFriedman]

The weights are in-****ing-sane.

She should be carrying 133 or 134 based on her record and who she is facing.

129 is a GIFT.

[WinterTriangle]

Man, I'm getting pretty tired of the 'who has she beat' thing...she beat every one that she's run against...it's never enough

That sounds about right.

I also am a little concerned about her last work, which was rather slow

Horses peak at different times.

This may not be the right time for Zenyatta. Of course, if she loses, all mention of horses actually having peaks will be tossed. :D

It won't be the end of the world, or the beginning, if she loses or wins looses a race. At least, it won't be for me. :D This one is only important "statistically".....the unbeaten thing. Yawn.

[Cratos]

The weights are in-****ing-sane.

She should be carrying 133 or 134 based on her record and who she is facing.

129 is a GIFT.

Weights are assigned based on the “spread” between weights and not the absolute weighted toted by the horse. To give Zenyatta 134 pounds she would be giving St Trinians 14 pounds and that “ain’t happening.”

[joanied]

That sounds about right.


Horses peak at different times.

This may not be the right time for Zenyatta. Of course, if she loses, all mention of horses actually having peaks will be tossed. :D


It won't be the end of the world, or the beginning, if she loses or wins looses a race. At least, it won't be for me. :D This one is only important "statistically".....the unbeaten thing. Yawn.

Yep...win or loose, there will be soemthing to bitch about:faint:

Indeed, they do peak at different times...if ya think about it, Zenny's been peaking for a couple of years now :D ...but her last work is, IMO, kind of a mystery because we don't know (at least I don't) whether or not the time was by design or not...
I will admit, Winter T...if she gets beat, I am going to have a bad case of the blues.

[Cratos]

Yep...win or loose, there will be soemthing to bitch about:faint:

Indeed, they do peak at different times...if ya think about it, Zenny's been peaking for a couple of years now :D ...but her last work is, IMO, kind of a mystery because we don't know (at least I don't) whether or not the time was by design or not...
I will admit, Winter T...if she gets beat, I am going to have a bad case of the blues.

If Rachel loses this race there is something wrong with her and they have been hiding it. Comparing her to Affirmed in his 4yo campaign is ludicrous because Affirmed in 1978 was coming off of one of the toughest and most competitive TC campaigns ever in his battles with Alydar. Rachel has never been contested like that.

[joanied]

If Rachel loses this race there is something wrong with her and they have been hiding it. Comparing her to Affirmed in his 4yo campaign is ludicrous because Affirmed in 1978 was coming off of one of the toughest and most competitive TC campaigns ever in his battles with Alydar. Rachel has never been contested like that.

Kinda off the topic, since this is about the Vanity...but you may be right about Rachel...although, the way she's been training lately, I can't see anything physically wrong...IMO, it's all the changes she's been put through...too long stuck in a stall at Saratoga (her so called vacation), equipment changes, trying to change her way of running...it messed with her head.
If they just let her be Rachel, and she wins this race...IMO, it's just going to get better.

[Hedevar]

QUOTE=KinkyFriedman]Why would you be glad she staying out? She could have been a Triple Crown winner. She's good enough to handle the 20-horse field. If only we could have gotten Hollendorfer a testicle transplant...[/QUOTE]

I remember you talking about Blind Luck. You're the prognosticating Urologist. Well done.

[FenceBored]

Add Zardana (118 lbs) to the mix.

Shirreffs had hoped to start Zardana in the Grade 1 Ogden Phipps Handicap at Belmont Park on Saturday, but said he was not happy with potential shipping arrangements.
-- http://www.drf.com/news/article/113743.html
And on the future plans front:
Wednesday, trainer John Shirreffs said the $300,000 Clement Hirsch Stakes at Del Mar on Aug. 7, a race that Zenyatta won in 2008 and 2009, will be a late summer goal.

[Hedevar]

Add Zardana (118 lbs) to the mix.



Shirreffs had hoped to start Zardana in the Grade 1 Ogden Phipps Handicap at Belmont Park on Saturday, but said he was not happy with potential shipping arrangements.


-- http://www.drf.com/news/article/113743.html


And on the future plans front:Wednesday, trainer John Shirreffs said the $300,000 Clement Hirsch Stakes at Del Mar on Aug. 7, a race that Zenyatta won in 2008 and 2009, will be a late summer goal.









She should be in Saratoga for Thanksgiving.

[Pick6]

The weights are in-****ing-sane.

She should be carrying 133 or 134 based on her record and who she is facing.

129 is a GIFT.
131 seems fair. This would be the most since Gamely carried the same weight to victory in 1968. Being compared to Gamely as a race mare (who won division honors for 3 years straight and ran 2nd in the '68 Californian against Dr. Fager) is not too shabby.

It would also exceed some other solid runners, including Silver Spoon (130), Azeri and Pasaena (127), Bayakoa (125), and Escena (124).

[PaceAdvantage]

AB was even better.AB can't possibly stand for Apple Blossom...can it?

[PaceAdvantage]

i can't believe the amount of time spent on this subject and the amount of drivel posted by both sides.Good thing these threads have titles then...don't you think?

[PaceAdvantage]

If Rachel loses this race there is something wrong with her and they have been hiding it. Comparing her to Affirmed in his 4yo campaign is ludicrous because Affirmed in 1978 was coming off of one of the toughest and most competitive TC campaigns ever in his battles with Alydar. Rachel has never been contested like that.What a loopy thing to write. It is widely accepted that Rachel Alexandra contested the most DIFFICULT THREE-YEAR-OLD FILLY CAMPAIGN EVER in the modern era.

Preakness
Haskell
Whitney

Three-year-old filly beats three-year-old boys TWICE and OLDER MALES once, all in GRADE 1 EVENTS.

Name another three-year-old filly in the modern era who contested a tougher campaign.

[Gorgeous George]

What a loopy thing to write. It is widely accepted that Rachel Alexandra contested the most DIFFICULT THREE-YEAR-OLD FILLY CAMPAIGN EVER in the modern era.

Preakness
Haskell
Whitney

Three-year-old filly beats three-year-old boys TWICE and OLDER MALES once, all in GRADE 1 EVENTS.

Name another three-year-old filly in the modern era who contested a tougher campaign.

None

[Kimsus]

What a loopy thing to write. It is widely accepted that Rachel Alexandra contested the most DIFFICULT THREE-YEAR-OLD FILLY CAMPAIGN EVER in the modern era.

Preakness
Haskell
Whitney

Three-year-old filly beats three-year-old boys TWICE and OLDER MALES once, all in GRADE 1 EVENTS.

Name another three-year-old filly in the modern era who contested a tougher campaign.

Spare us the semantics and just state who was so tough last year she beat to earn the title themost DIFFICULT THREE-YEAR-OLD FILLY CAMPAIGN EVER. :rolleyes:

[Kimsus]

Like I don't know the answer to this...It's a wonder why even I tire of the same droid like responses of the great Princess's campaign that lasted for 3/4's of a yr.

[born2ride]

Like I don't know the answer to this...It's a wonder why even I tire of the same droid like responses of the great Princess's campaign that lasted for 3/4's of a yr.

Then certainly you can understand how many others here are tired of the same droid responses to the great Queen's campaign that lasted for just short of 1/2 a year.

[Headbanger]

Spare us the semantics and just state who was so tough last year she beat to earn the title themost DIFFICULT THREE-YEAR-OLD FILLY CAMPAIGN EVER. :rolleyes:

You just don't get it do you? It's not necessarily who Rachel Alexandra faced in these races, it's about the fact that she was campaigned extremely ambitiously and raced in races that most if not all 3YO fillies would never dare contest like the Haskell, Whitney, and Preakness. What she faced really ends up being irrelivant, it's a matter of the prestigious races for colts that she competed in and won that most fillies never even contest. Meanwhile Kitty Cat Sherriffs and Moss can stay back in the land of rubber and beat up on even worse horses. By the way one did enjoy the look on the Moss's faces after RA won horse of the year last year, and maybe they should get used to that look because they are gonna have it again.

[Kimsus]

You just don't get it do you? It's not necessarily who Rachel Alexandra faced in these races, it's about the fact that she was campaigned extremely ambitiously and raced in races that most if not all 3YO fillies would never dare contest like the Haskell, Whitney, and Preakness. What she faced really ends up being irrelivant, it's a matter of the prestigious races for colts that she competed in and won that most fillies never even contest. Meanwhile Kitty Cat Sherriffs and Moss can stay back in the land of rubber and beat up on even worse horses. By the way one did enjoy the look on the Moss's faces after RA won horse of the year last year, and maybe they should get used to that look because they are gonna have it again.

I would think you would be smarter than that, with Jess's song and dance of hide and go seek this year, the truth is it was a careful manipulation of races that on the surface seemed challenging, but were in actuality carefully picked out, an avoidance of truer tougher races that was digested by the fooled racing public through a bevy of the usual excuses.

Carry on, we know all options are open and she is nearing her fitness of last year. I hope they notice the calendar.

I get it, I doubt you do.

[Headbanger]

I would think you would be smarter than that, with Jess's song and dance of hide and go seek this year, the truth is it was a careful manipulation of races that on the surface seemed challenging, but were in actuality carefully picked out, an avoidance of truer tougher races that was digested by the fooled racing public through a bevy of the usual excuses.

Carry on, we know all options are open and she is nearing her fitness of last year. I hope they notice the calendar.

I get it, I doubt you do.

Ok, so it was carefully picked out to face tougher older horses in the Whitney than weaker 3YOs in the Travers, in addition to that, the Whitey was run a at a distance that is probably Rachel Alexandra's best, being 1 1/8 compared to the 1 1/4 distance of the Travers.

Oh I get it, you just never get it because you are a Zenyattaturd that simply fails to see past the obvious that "your" horse isn't all that she's cranked up to be. It's easy to win races when you are facing allowance types all year on a fake surface.

http://www.cs.wustl.edu/~schmidt/gifs/stupid.jpeg

You never win and you never quit...

[FenceBored]

Ok, so it was carefully picked out to face tougher older horses in the Whitney than weaker 3YOs in the Travers, in addition to that, the Whitey was run a at a distance that is probably Rachel Alexandra's best, being 1 1/8 compared to the 1 1/4 distance of the Travers.

Oh I get it, you just never get it because you are a Zenyattaturd that simply fails to see past the obvious that "your" horse isn't all that she's cranked up to be. It's easy to win races when you are facing allowance types all year on a fake surface.

http://www.cs.wustl.edu/%7Eschmidt/gifs/stupid.jpeg

You never win and you never quit...

Woodward, not Whitney. Bullsbay won the Whitney.

[Headbanger]

Woodward, not Whitney. Bullsbay won the Whitney.

My mistake, either way, highly presitigous race no matter what.

Heck of a cast of winner's in the history of the Woodward:

Woodward Winners (http://www.nyra.com/Saratoga/Stakes/Woodward.shtml)

[Kimsus]

Ok, so it was carefully picked out to face tougher older horses in the Whitney than weaker 3YOs in the Travers, in addition to that, the Whitey was run a at a distance that is probably Rachel Alexandra's best, being 1 1/8 compared to the 1 1/4 distance of the Travers.

Oh I get it, you just never get it because you are a Zenyattaturd that simply fails to see past the obvious that "your" horse isn't all that she's cranked up to be. It's easy to win races when you are facing allowance types all year on a fake surface.

http://www.mediabistro.com/agencyspy/original/kfc_logo_file_www_ComVort.png

You never win and you never quit...

What does her campaign have to do with Zenyatta?

[classhandicapper]

"No, it's the equivalent of 129 for an older horse. If you're running within the distaff division you're toting your "real weight," stepping into open company you catch a break."

Fenced,

I was referring to older male horse. I wasn't clear.

[FenceBored]

And the field is set:

112-Miss Silver Brook
120-St. Trinians
118-Zardana
114-Will O Way
129-Zenyatta
112-Cherryblossommiss

[PaceAdvantage]

Spare us the semantics and just state who was so tough last year she beat to earn the title themost DIFFICULT THREE-YEAR-OLD FILLY CAMPAIGN EVER. :rolleyes:The fact that you can't simply counter my argument with the name of another three-year-old filly who ran a more difficult campaign speaks volumes.

Case closed.

[Seabiscuit@AR]

St Trinians is no tomato can. She is a better horse than Zardana

[PaceAdvantage]

St Trinians is no tomato can. She is a better horse than ZardanaOn synthetics no doubt...you forgot that part...