Anyone use Moss Pace figures in Formulator?

[hencicleva]

I've been buying PP's with these included, without ever using them. There doesn't seem to be any explanation on how they are derived on DRF.com but I'm probably missing something. Can anyone point me in the right direction?

[cj]

http://www.drf.com/products/moss/moss.html

[hencicleva]

Don't know how I missed it but thanks!

[cj]

Don't know how I missed it but thanks!

No worries, I don't know how I found it!

[PhantomOnTour]

These figs seem to me to be a hairball. Why convert the final fig (which is the speed fig) from Beyer to his scale? Convert his numbers to Beyers instead, eh? Now you have pace figs on one scale and the Beyer on another; hence 2 different speed figs will be listed(the Beyer and Moss' converted Beyer)...confusion for some I would imagine.
Davidowitz has pace figs on the Beyer scale and that is what DRF should have used imo.

[classhandicapper]

These figs seem to me to be a hairball. Why convert the final fig (which is the speed fig) from Beyer to his scale? Convert his numbers to Beyers instead, eh? Now you have pace figs on one scale and the Beyer on another; hence 2 different speed figs will be listed(the Beyer and Moss' converted Beyer)...confusion for some I would imagine.
Davidowitz has pace figs on the Beyer scale and that is what DRF should have used imo.

There were several reasons, but one of them is that at 2F a 1/5th of second is quite significant. So if the pace is slow, it will produce a negative pace figure on the Beyer scale quite frequently.

[cj]

There were several reasons, but one of them is that at 2F a 1/5th of second is quite significant. So if the pace is slow, it will produce a negative pace figure on the Beyer scale quite frequently.

When horses are that bad, they still rarely ever would produce a subzero Beyer for 1/4. Really bad horses still run faster early than late.

[proximity]

Davidowitz has pace figs on the Beyer scale and that is what DRF should have used imo.

actually in chapter 17 (converting beyer figures for pace analysis) of his book betting thoroughbreds, mr davidowitz recommended using a tighter (moss style) scale for his ratings.

[cj]

actually in chapter 17 (converting beyer figures for pace analysis) of his book betting thoroughbreds, mr davidowitz recommended using a tighter (moss style) scale for his ratings.

I've read pretty much everything I can find on horse racing, and I can honestly say I have NEVER come close to figuring out what he is talking about in the chapter. I have asked others and nobody gets it. It was also removed from the latest revision of the book.

Don't get me wrong, I do understand about the smaller scale, but the chapter as a whole is mind boggling.

[PhantomOnTour]

I've read pretty much everything I can find on horse racing, and I can honestly say I have NEVER come close to figuring out what he is talking about in the chapter. I have asked others and nobody gets it. It was also removed from the latest revision of the book.

Don't get me wrong, I do understand about the smaller scale, but the chapter as a whole is mind boggling.
Thank you CJ!! I also felt like total idiot when reading this chapter (still felt dumb when I re-read the chapter)....the concept escaped me totally which is one reason I use Quirin style figs. Needed pace numbers and couldn't grasp the Beyer conversion stuff that Steve D was talking about. That's funny.

[thaskalos]

I've read pretty much everything I can find on horse racing, and I can honestly say I have NEVER come close to figuring out what he is talking about in the chapter. I have asked others and nobody gets it. It was also removed from the latest revision of the book.

Don't get me wrong, I do understand about the smaller scale, but the chapter as a whole is mind boggling. LOL...and I thought I was the only one...

[Tom]

THANKS GUYS!

All these years I thought I was just to dumb to get it! Whew!:D

[Steve 'StatMan']

Me too. Never have figured them out, no matter the author. Actually, I'm a pace figure skeptic, though they work for others in their line of thought. I more agree with Steve D.' latter asssesment in the book, that there are errors in the margins due to the human calls, plus I know of plenty of timing errors, etc. I more like to know was it the fastest or slowest pace of the day(or close to it,) and just include that in my thinking. (Not claiming to be a big success, not betting right now.)

I must admit that Moss's explaination of them, as well as Brohammer's book, confuse me at first and then make me sleepy.

[proximity]

I've read pretty much everything I can find on horse racing, and I can honestly say I have NEVER come close to figuring out what he is talking about in the chapter. I have asked others and nobody gets it. It was also removed from the latest revision of the book.

Don't get me wrong, I do understand about the smaller scale, but the chapter as a whole is mind boggling.

we can talk about it the next time you see me at charles town.

just make sure that i'm drunk first!!:D

[cj]

we can talk about it the next time you see me at charles town.

just make sure that i'm drunk first!!:D

If you can explain the chapter, the first and all drinks are on me.

[proximity]

If you can explain the chapter, the first and all drinks are on me.

as long as we don't discuss the section where steve and andy just had to rent a motel room outside of d.c. to discuss speed figures!! :confused:

couldn't they have just exchanged secret briefcases in some dark corner of the backstretch?

did the room come with a heart shaped bed guys?

too much info there mr d....

[Trotman]

I looked at Davidowitz book and put it down it was more about the logic of illogic which I have no time for. IMO it's books such as this that screws up the thinking of bettors.

[Dan Montilion]

I looked at Davidowitz book and put it down it was more about the logic of illogic which I have no time for. IMO it's books such as this that screws up the thinking of bettors.
Trotman. Would you expound on your opinion of this book. And of your opinion of "books such as this".

[ronsmac]

Pace figures are almost useless at Santa Anita with 1mile races unless you watch the tapes closely. The run up to the official start is so far , that i've seen horses sprint to a 3 length lead to the official start activating the timer. Then quit abruptly which throws everything out of kilter. The sheets people time from the gate i believe but don't factor pace in their calculations.

[classhandicapper]

When horses are that bad, they still rarely ever would produce a subzero Beyer for 1/4. Really bad horses still run faster early than late.

Not deep closers in routes. ;)

Remember he is making early speed pace figures not the type of pace figures you are making. So at the long distances, there are some really slow early fractions

[proximity]

Not deep closers in routes. ;)

Remember he is making early speed pace figures not the type of pace figures you are making. So at the long distances, there are some really slow early fractions

i agree that the moss style scale is preferable for these situations since many players may prefer to use the numbers in "reverse" to make various late pace ratings. and mr beyer's "-0" designations wouldn't really be too helpful there.

[cj]

Not deep closers in routes. ;)

Remember he is making early speed pace figures not the type of pace figures you are making. So at the long distances, there are some really slow early fractions

That makes sense.

[FUGITIVE77]

Me too. Never have figured them out, no matter the author. Actually, I'm a pace figure skeptic, though they work for others in their line of thought. I more agree with Steve D.' latter asssesment in the book, that there are errors in the margins due to the human calls, plus I know of plenty of timing errors, etc. I more like to know was it the fastest or slowest pace of the day(or close to it,) and just include that in my thinking. (Not claiming to be a big success, not betting right now.)

I must admit that Moss's explaination of them, as well as Brohammer's book, confuse me at first and then make me sleepy.


Your a pace figure skeptic, are you?????? Your in good company for just the reasons you listed, what does a pace figure guy do when a track is noted for several timing errors, like we know..........

[harness2008]

A bit unwieldy, but the conversion from any Moss figure to its equivalent Beyer figure is this equation fo all who are interested.

Moss Figure X 2.72727272 - 152.72727272

[speed]

A bit unwieldy, but the conversion from any Moss figure to its equivalent Beyer figure is this equation fo all who are interested.

Moss Figure X 2.72727272 - 152.72727272


I don't know if i should laugh or cry :)

[fmolf]

I don't know if i should laugh or cry :)
I just use the numbers in the bris pp's to determine if the horse raced on a fast pace early and if he finished well.i have found their numbers to be adequate in this regard for i am not a pace devotee but rather use pace only in a general sense and am in no way going to use any algaebraic equations to reach a decisoion on who or who cannot withstand the pace of the race at hand!