"Bring younger fans to our game!"

[thaskalos]

Horse racing's fan base has declined, and predictably, so has the nation-wide mutual handle. The common opinion, voiced from coast to coast, is that an infusion of young fans is the only thing that can rescue this game from extinction. Many people on this board have offered opinions on the best ways of attracting young people to the track, and converting them into bettors.

The question is...why?

What happened to the "older" players, who have been supporting this game for over 100 years? Have they suddenly died? Have they been lured away by other forms of gambling? Is there an anticipated decline in the over-40 population for the years to come, and we now have to start recruiting young people to help shoulder the responsibility of supporting this game?

IMO, the answer to these question is NO!

The older horseplayers have not died; in fact...with the progress of medicine...they are living longer than ever! Nor have they been lured away by other gambling games. Once a player is "hooked" on this game, it is unlikely that poker or the casinos can lure him away. Poker is too slow-moving, and the casino games too "random" to compare with the intellectual challenge that handicapping and betting provides...when this game is properly managed!

When the game isn't run with competence, chaos prevails and the horseplayers suffer. They sustain heavy loses and give up the game altogether, or their confidence in the game erodes, and they drastically reduce the amounts of money they put into the pools.

Horse racing is suffering a fate similar to any business that offers an inferior product at an inflated price.

The customers stop showing up!

And if the quality and price of the product does not improve...the customers...young and old alike... stay away for good!

[rwwupl]

We must have "young people" is another marketing myth. Horse racing would be glad to embrace customers of any age bracket. Does it matter what age the ticket buyer is? Is the money counted at the same value for a 25 year old as it is for a 55 yer old?

The fact is 20 years ago there were surveys too and they showed the average customer to be between 50-60 years old. The current surveys are showing the same.

Yes ,it would be nice to attract young people, but you must realize that they have another natural focus on things at that age, and no amount of marketing money will change that. Have we not learned that yet after 20 years of "Go Baby Go", "Friday Night Racing","Concerts" to bring them on board?

I ask the Marketing promoters of racing... Where are the young people that you have poured money into promoting for these many years?

A famous man once said " Continueing the same course and expecting a different result is insane"

Another fact is that that we are getting a smaller percentage of our traditional demographic customer than ever before...because we have ignored them, and lost them to other forms of gambling that we refuse to compete with in terms of cost. You will find Poker players tend to be older too. No one suggests that you have to be young to play or have poker survive.

The older generation is larger than ever before in our history,and it is our natural fan base,and we are losing them because we will not compete for them.

Marketing needs to rethink their basic strategy.

[andymays]

It's all about the potential to make money.

People watch a poker game on TV and they see people winning money.

Where is that in Horse Racing? If more people believed they could go to the track and walk away with a bunch of money more people would go.

[MaTH716]

It's all about the potential to make money.

People watch a poker game on TV and they see people winning money.

Where is that in Horse Racing? If more people believed they could go to the track and walk away with a bunch of money more people would go.

I think it has to do with the fact that Horse Racing is the only sport (gambling expierence) that you have to do the equivalent of homework to have a chance of really making money. Many people (I would think especially younger ones) don't want to study for any amount of time, before going to the track. Many people just want that instant gratification that you can get with a spin of a slot machine, roll of the dice, hand of Blackjack and so on. As opposed to handicapping/watching replays for 2 hours and then going to the track and waiting 30 minutes between each race. The serious players enjoy doing it, but I would think that it turns off many people just getting into the game. People don't realize that it takes a committment to be a somewhat serious bettor of this game.

[andymays]

Handle needs to be concentrated on less tracks so takeout can be lowered to 10 or 12%. Not likely to happen any time soon but if it did Horse Racing would be a great bet.

[andymays]

I think it has to do with the fact that Horse Racing is the only sport (gambling expierence) that you have to do the equivalent of homework to have a chance of really making money. Many people (I would think especially younger ones) don't want to study for any amount of time, before going to the track. Many people just want that instant gratification that you can get with a spin of a slot machine, roll of the dice, hand of Blackjack and so on. As opposed to handicapping/watching replays for 2 hours and then going to the track and waiting 30 minutes between each race. The serious players enjoy doing it, but I would think that it turns off many people just getting into the game. People don't realize that it takes a committment to be a somewhat serious bettor of this game.

If people thought they could put in the work (homework) and make money they would do the work and bet the horses.

[MaTH716]

If people thought they could put in the work (homework) and make money they would do the work and bet the horses.

I personally disagree. Especially when it comes to younger people (original target of the thread) they rather do other things then "study". Also what I forgot to mention is the whole preclude of learing how to handicap & read the forms/sheets. I just think that it takes a somewhat serious commitment to be a player of the sport. Many people just don't have or want to invest the time into what is a very tough, expensive, time consuming product that racing can be.

[johnhannibalsmith]

If marketing to young people was absolutely crucial for success then I wouldn't have to suffer through commercials warning of a five-hour erection.

[46zilzal]

It's all about the potential to make money.

People watch a poker game on TV and they see people winning money.

Where is that in Horse Racing? If more people believed they could go to the track and walk away with a bunch of money more people would go.
Exactly the prevailing tone was set years ago with all the Hollywood malarkey about its being fixed and that image sticks to this day.

When I tell people I work at a race track, the very next few things out of their mouths are questions about the mafia and drugs.....

The image is in bad need of repair.

[craigbraddick]

Handle needs to be concentrated on less tracks so takeout can be lowered to 10 or 12%. Not likely to happen any time soon but if it did Horse Racing would be a great bet.


Sounds a lot like a lift from the HANA website.

I doubt that would help anything except to make racing slightly more lucrative for serious players (not a bad thing but needs to be one of many spearheads and not the only spearhead) and less horse racing means it is less accessible to those who may take an interest in the sport.

To hook young people the race experience must be enticing and they need materials that appeal to them and are somewhat easy for them to intrerpret.

Furthermore, we will have the older crowd bring out the younger crowd if we treat the older crowd right, listen to them and then try to address their issues.

In my experience the likes of HANA have been totally unresponsive in all of those areas and just bleat on the same old party line, failing to realize they are fast becoming part of the problem and not the solution.

Craig.

[ArlJim78]

I don't think young people are the answer. Racing just has to attract more people in general. More adults. When I was young and went to the track I don't remember any throngs of youngsters. There were many more people than there are now. Refreshing the image and attracting newcomers is badly needed. but if its aimed at young people i think its a waste.
you need those married guys willing to bet next months rent!:D

[craigbraddick]

I don't think young people are the answer. Racing just has to attract more people in general. More adults. When I was young and went to the track I don't remember any throngs of youngsters. There were many more people than there are now. Refreshing the image and attracting newcomers is badly needed. but if its aimed at young people i think its a waste.
you need those married guys willing to bet next months rent!:D

There is a serious unexploited angle here. If we can make people realize playing the horses is free of the peer pressure and macho that can go on at a guys night around the poker table - maybe, just maybe, the spouses will be happier and they can have a day out at the track too...

Worth thinknig about!

Craig

[craigbraddick]

Exactly the prevailing tone was set years ago with all the Hollywood malarkey about its being fixed and that image sticks to this day.

When I tell people I work at a race track, the very next few things out of their mouths are questions about the mafia and drugs.....

The image is in bad need of repair.

I have never heard that from people when I tell them my job.

Craig

[thespaah]

Horse racing's fan base has declined, and predictably, so has the nation-wide mutual handle. The common opinion, voiced from coast to coast, is that an infusion of young fans is the only thing that can rescue this game from extinction. Many people on this board have offered opinions on the best ways of attracting young people to the track, and converting them into bettors.

The question is...why?

What happened to the "older" players, who have been supporting this game for over 100 years? Have they suddenly died? Have they been lured away by other forms of gambling? Is there an anticipated decline in the over-40 population for the years to come, and we now have to start recruiting young people to help shoulder the responsibility of supporting this game?

IMO, the answer to these question is NO!

The older horseplayers have not died; in fact...with the progress of medicine...they are living longer than ever! Nor have they been lured away by other gambling games. Once a player is "hooked" on this game, it is unlikely that poker or the casinos can lure him away. Poker is too slow-moving, and the casino games too "random" to compare with the intellectual challenge that handicapping and betting provides...when this game is properly managed!

When the game isn't run with competence, chaos prevails and the horseplayers suffer. They sustain heavy loses and give up the game altogether, or their confidence in the game erodes, and they drastically reduce the amounts of money they put into the pools.

Horse racing is suffering a fate similar to any business that offers an inferior product at an inflated price.

The customers stop showing up!

And if the quality and price of the product does not improve...the customers...young and old alike... stay away for good!
I am trying to get my 18 year old son intersted. Given the geographic issues( I live in NC) it is tough to let him see first hand. He will watch the bigger races on tv ,but only if I've turned it on. Plus his wallet is a steel trap.
I'll do the best I can.

[thespaah]

Part of the issue with younger people is the last two generations( Gen X Gen Y) have been taught to believe in instant gratification. People between 18 and 30 have no patience to wait up to 30 mins between wagering opportunities. They want it fast and then they want another right away.
They do not want to read a printed booklet of PP's. Thye want to use their electronic gadgets. IMO PP's will have to be provided at a lower price or even free of charge(no, I'm not starting that debate, another thread another time) and tracks have to set up wifi hotspots so younger people can use their lap tops, net books and i-"devices".
They want color and splash. They want to be entertained.
The people who run this business are going to have to come to the realization that the on-track product alone is not going to get the job done.

[thespaah]

I have never heard that from people when I tell them my job.

Craig
Yeah, only older dunderheads yell "FIXED!!" everytime they lose a bet.
Trust me, the mafia has way better things to do than try yo fix horse races. One of those things is how to keep their own from turning into FBI informants.

[rastajenk]

I have never heard that from people when I tell them my job.

CraigMe too. I hear things like "Cool!" and "That must be a lot of fun" and generally positive, interested comments like that. No Mafia; no drugs; no racefixing.

[andymays]

Sounds a lot like a lift from the HANA website.

In my experience the likes of HANA have been totally unresponsive in all of those areas and just bleat on the same old party line, failing to realize they are fast becoming part of the problem and not the solution.
Craig.

It's from me and not anyone else.

I am a member but hardly one to tow the line when I disagree with something. I'm sure some on the board (and the HANA board) are laughing as we speak when you try to portray me as some kind of HANA robot. I am laughing as well. :D

Whatever anyone wants to say HANA has been a net positive for Horseplayers. I'm not sure too many poeple have criticized them more than me when I disagee with one of their methods or positions. It's on the record if you want to get your story straight.

Since you seem to have some issues try being specific by giving specific examples. ;)

[SMOO]

Handle needs to be concentrated on less tracks so takeout can be lowered to 10 or 12%. Not likely to happen any time soon but if it did Horse Racing would be a great bet.

:ThmbUp:

In addition to all the "homework" you have to battle huge takeouts that erode bankrolls at a faster rate.

[craigbraddick]

It's from me and not anyone else.

I am a member but hardly one to tow the line when I disagree with something. I'm sure some on the board (HANA) are laughing as we speak when you try to portray me as some kind of HANA robot. I am laughing as well. :D

Whatever anyone wants to say HANA has been a net positive for Horseplayers. I'm not sure too many poeple have criticized them more than me when I disagee with one of their methods or positions. It's on the record if you want to get your story straight.

Since you seem to have some issues try being specific by giving specific examples. ;)


Just a specific example, I have reached out to them myself and through others in the last six weeks, with the hope of having ideas from them to make Arapahoe Park a more attractive proposition for horseplayers. Not one email, not a return phone call, nothing - even when other people made the request for me.

Just as bad service as the racetrack management they criticize, hence becoming part on the problem.

And I apologize for making you out to be a: "HANA Robot!"

Craig

[craigbraddick]

Part of the issue with younger people is the last two generations( Gen X Gen Y) have been taught to believe in instant gratification. People between 18 and 30 have no patience to wait up to 30 mins between wagering opportunities. They want it fast and then they want another right away.
They do not want to read a printed booklet of PP's. Thye want to use their electronic gadgets. IMO PP's will have to be provided at a lower price or even free of charge(no, I'm not starting that debate, another thread another time) and tracks have to set up wifi hotspots so younger people can use their lap tops, net books and i-"devices".
They want color and splash. They want to be entertained.
The people who run this business are going to have to come to the realization that the on-track product alone is not going to get the job done.

Well said, indeed.

In fact, I have long said the program format needs to be changed and/or be available at a nominal fee. For the novice or fun horseplayer, the standard PP is as stodgy as a tax return. And in the UK you can get the Racing Post Newspaper that is a far better read and has ALL the race meets covered for less than half the price of one DRF that covers just a few tracks (Having to pay more for other editions too!)

Craig

[andymays]

Just a specific example, I have reached out to them myself and through others in the last six weeks, with the hope of having ideas from them to make Arapahoe Park a more attractive proposition for horseplayers. Not one email, not a return phone call, nothing - even when other people made the request for me.

Just as bad service as the racetrack management they criticize, hence becoming part on the problem.

And I apologize for making you out to be a: "HANA Robot!"

Craig

That's a legit beef and I'm sure they'll weigh in on the matter when they see your post.

The truth is that they simply don't have the resources to do what everyone thinks they should do and I don't think they ever imagined the amount of work that goes into having a membership and taking on all these issues. It doesn't take a lot of resources to return a phone call or an email though. That's not an excuse but it's an explanation of what I think the problem is.

[Foolish Pleasure]

THey fill The Preakness infield with college kids and how does that effect the bottomline?

It doesn't.



Racing needs more doctors, lawyers, brokers, people who know a little but think they know a lot. The ones who fled racing for golf the last 30or so years.


Otherwise the demographics support racing tremendously,
the population is aging and seniors love to gamble.

the fact they losing out to the idiotic slot machines shows how inept they are at selling their product.

[Foolish Pleasure]

Part of the issue with younger people is the last two generations( Gen X Gen Y) have been taught to believe in instant gratification. People between 18 and 30 have no patience to wait up to 30 mins between wagering opportunities. They want it fast and then they want another right away.
They do not want to read a printed booklet of PP's. Thye want to use their electronic gadgets. IMO PP's will have to be provided at a lower price or even free of charge(no, I'm not starting that debate, another thread another time) and tracks have to set up wifi hotspots so younger people can use their lap tops, net books and i-"devices".
They want color and splash. They want to be entertained.
The people who run this business are going to have to come to the realization that the on-track product alone is not going to get the job done.


Races go off less than every 10mins 12hrs a day 7 days a week.

Same people went in droves to poker where they folding 95% of the hands,
and yet somehow horse racing and boredom end up in the same sentence.

It is amazing stuff. No one goes to the track for the first time and is not in awe of the proceedings, really can't say that about any other form of gambling and the implication is obvious-just get them out to the track for the first time and nature will take care of the rest.


This young people don't like racing for XYZ is such bullshit.
They play poker, they into fantasy sports-they are into much more mundane crap already.

It is nothing more than the usual excuse machine put forth from the executive level.


JFC when I was kid, I had to listen to recreated broadcasts of races,
today-pick up any hand held device get instant information,
and somehow that is being cited as a hindrance-it is a joke.

The sport appeals to everyone, always has and always will.

[craigbraddick]

That's a legit beef and I'm sure they'll weigh in on the matter when they see your post.

The truth is that they simply don't have the resources to do what everyone thinks they should do and I don't think they ever imagined the amount of work that goes into having a membership and taking on all these issues. It doesn't take a lot of resources to return a phone call or an email though. That's not an excuse but it's an explanation of what I think the problem is.


Most of the stuff I have undertaken here at ARP os mot by any means part of my job description but something I chose to do because of my love of the sport. I understand that takes sacrifice and you cannot be all things to all people. But, as you say, a simple email or return phone call would not have been too much to ask.

Craig

[Robert Goren]

When you see poker on tv, you see the gamblers. When racing is on tv, you never see the gamblers. They do stories about trainers, owners and jockeys. It like if when they show a poker tournment, they would do stories about card and chip makers. They cover the sport of horse racing, not the game of horse racing. It is no wonder what little tv coverage horse racing gets brings no new gamblers to the sport. JMO

[Stevie Belmont]

Free wi-fi would be a start.

[thespaah]

Races go off less than every 10mins 12hrs a day 7 days a week.

Same people went in droves to poker where they folding 95% of the hands,
and yet somehow horse racing and boredom end up in the same sentence.

It is amazing stuff. No one goes to the track for the first time and is not in awe of the proceedings, really can't say that about any other form of gambling and the implication is obvious-just get them out to the track for the first time and nature will take care of the rest.


This young people don't like racing for XYZ is such bullshit.
They play poker, they into fantasy sports-they are into much more mundane crap already.

It is nothing more than the usual excuse machine put forth from the executive level.


JFC when I was kid, I had to listen to recreated broadcasts of races,
today-pick up any hand held device get instant information,
and somehow that is being cited as a hindrance-it is a joke.

The sport appeals to everyone, always has and always will.
Be more specific. You are refering to the availability of multiple tracks from simulcasting. Good. However we are getting NEW people interested. I also failed to mention that younger people have short attention spans. That said, what makes you think these kids are going to be able to concetrate on four different tracks?
If you have nailed it and found a solution as you may believe, why is it then that younger people are for the most part, disinterested in horse racing?

[thespaah]

When you see poker on tv, you see the gamblers. When racing is on tv, you never see the gamblers. They do stories about trainers, owners and jockeys. It like if when they show a poker tournment, they would do stories about card and chip makers. They cover the sport of horse racing, not the game of horse racing. It is no wonder what little tv coverage horse racing gets brings no new gamblers to the sport. JMO
That is the fault of the media and their on camera personalities.
Tv is an ego based industry. If one were to take a consensus among on camera talent by asking what would they rather do, go into a crowd of racing fans and interview them all day about their betting exploits or sit on a cold toilet seat, which answer do you think they would give?
So no, in horse racing you won't see the players on TV.

[46zilzal]

I don't think young people are the answer. Racing just has to attract more people in general. More adults. When I was young and went to the track I don't remember any throngs of youngsters. There were many more people than there are now. Refreshing the image and attracting newcomers is badly needed. but if its aimed at young people i think its a waste.
you need those married guys willing to bet next months rent!:D


Who has disposable income? Not the younger set.

[craigbraddick]

That is the fault of the media and their on camera personalities.
Tv is an ego based industry. If one were to take a consensus among on camera talent by asking what would they rather do, go into a crowd of racing fans and interview them all day about their betting exploits or sit on a cold toilet seat, which answer do you think they would give?
So no, in horse racing you won't see the players on TV.

Watch British Raing TV abd they usually have a wagering expert in among the punters. TV Racing done properly and the dedicated racing channels need to set the example and show the networks how to do it.

Craig

[rastajenk]

I think that's (thespah's) a misguided take. Gambling on horses has always been kind of a loner's pursuit, even among great crowds. Two things: one, I don't care to watch horseplayers talk about their selections good or bad on TV, and two, I wouldn't want to be interviewed if I was in the crowd at the track. Probably millions of others feel the same, so where is the appeal of trying to make stars out of gamblers? It's not the fault of the media, it's that there is nothing to be had going down that path.

[jballscalls]

That is the fault of the media and their on camera personalities.
Tv is an ego based industry. If one were to take a consensus among on camera talent by asking what would they rather do, go into a crowd of racing fans and interview them all day about their betting exploits or sit on a cold toilet seat, which answer do you think they would give?
So no, in horse racing you won't see the players on TV.

poker has been fortunate to have a ton of great characters (phil hellmuth, sam farha, amir vahedi, etc) i watched the tournament they have in vegas for horseracing on dvd once and there wasn't anyone with a character or personality or flair like those guys had.

I'm sure there are plenty of great characters in the betting arenas, i know for a fact there aren't any here at PM, and i dont recall many at Emerald or River in my time there, and i met a ton of people. many many great guys and gals, but none of the flair of the poker set that people are seeing on tv.

I mean we've seen the response that TVG guys get here and on other boards for talking about their tickets on tv all day long, what makes you think seeing a random guy talk about his late double ticket would attract fans??

I mean a poker tournament has a beginning, middle and end, and they can follow the leaders. a day at the races there is no guarantee that anyone they are showing on tv is going to have a winning day. they might pick 50 players to follow and they all might make nothing that day. whereas in a poker tournament, you know for a fact someone in that room is going to score big that day.

[rwwupl]

Just a specific example, I have reached out to them myself and through others in the last six weeks, with the hope of having ideas from them to make Arapahoe Park a more attractive proposition for horseplayers. Not one email, not a return phone call, nothing - even when other people made the request for me.

Just as bad service as the racetrack management they criticize, hence becoming part on the problem.

And I apologize for making you out to be a: "HANA Robot!"

Craig


How did you reach out to HANA? By a phone call,E-mail or post on PaceAdvantage? I have seen some of your posts on PaceAdvantage,but they seem to be a general call for ideas for Arapahoe Park from any horseplayer that wanted to respond. Not many of us are familiar with Arapahoe Park as you are,so I am sorry that you did not get what you wanted.

HANA has positions on their website that is what they think would be helpful to any racetrack...and and contact methods. Apparently some racetrack managers do not read carefully enough. http://www.horseplayersassociation.org/

As a representative of HANA,I would be surprised if you made a request of any HANA officer directly,that you would not get a reply of some kind.

Can you private message me with specifics on your disappointment with HANA?

I think the thrust of your post is unfair to HANA.

roger@hanaweb.org

[Otis11]

What we've basically come down to is, how do we raise the handle.

During this discussion/thread numerous suggestions have been brought forth on how to bring more people to the track. Instead of finding ways to bring people to the track, we should be brainstorming ideas on how to make racing more available; in other words bring racing to the fan.

15 years ago I wouldn't have thought twice about driving 30 to 45 minutes to the track to play. There were no other options. Now, I can log in and play online. [Side note: my stupid State will not let me play my in State tracks online in an effort to entice me to go live.] Plus I have a kid and it's not always easy dragging her to the track with me. When I tell people I play online they immediately assume it's illegal. There is very little advertisement or public awareness of the ADWs.

Why aren't we discussing ways to "nationalize" the sport or ADW's so certain States are not restricted from playing online?

Another idea I had is to make racing available via closed circuit TV to bars and restaurants similar to the Keno games here in Michigan.

Tie the daily pick 6 bet in with the lottery and let people buy tickets where ever they can buy a lottery ticket. Then, show a 60 second montage of the winners each night on local TV.

:11:

[Foolish Pleasure]

When did the tracks ever attract younger people in droves?

AS far as the loner comment,

part of that is gambling was less socially acceptable by society.

yet another venue somehow racing missed out.

with the internet gambling and with the proliferation of casinos,
gambling itself is much more accepted by society-it is evident in the lesser crime and related social ills of every newly added casino-the latest in PA exhibiting virtual zero increase in social unrest created by casino gambling.
Yet despite this racing seems to pick up nothing in new business.





The bottomline here is the executives who have run the sport the last 30yrs or so have run it into ground, they sold future generations of horse players for slots. Every resource spent to gain slots was something taken away from racing and for it we now get shat upon with excessive takeout rates at places like PID where the racing revenue is but a speck on the ass of the operation.


There is no real reason why racing should not be incredibly successful moving forward beyond gross incompetence in the executive offices.
HBO would not be making that miniseries about the sport if it was dead,
Disney would not be making movies abt Secretariat if they didn't think people weren't interested. Even the post office wouldn't be issuing Seabiscuit postage stamps unless they thought people would buy them.


The excuses are bullshit nonsense. THe sport has lost nothing except competent stewardship.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

There needs to be a reason for a young person to take up horse racing handicapping and betting. The game needs to be perceived as beatable long term.
This is the major reason poker and Betfair have gone up in popularity while pari mutuel horse racing is lucky to have zero handle growth from one year to the next.

[rwwupl]

jballscalls(J.B.) quote from above:


poker has been fortunate to have a ton of great characters (phil hellmuth, sam farha, amir vahedi, etc) i watched the tournament they have in vegas for horseracing on dvd once and there wasn't anyone with a character or personality or flair like those guys had.


Horse racing has as many great characters as any game in the world. The difference is that the players are not a marketing focus.

AS Richard Duchossois said in 1994 in a DRF interview..."We are a participatory sport, not a spectator sport. Our bettors are competing with each other. This fact should be a marketing focus."

Poker has no advantage over horse racing except cost of participating,highlighting enough winners and marketing...but thats enough ,isn't it?

[rastajenk]

There needs to be a reason for a young person to take up horse racing handicapping and betting. The game needs to be perceived as beatable long term. I disagree with this nugget of conventional wisdom as well. The perception needs to be no more than the game is beatable on the shortest possible terms...one day or maybe even one race.

Gambling on horses is not like a long term investment, competing with Chuck Schwab or Vanguard or Fidelity or insurance annuities. I mean, I know a lot on this board treat it so, but really, isn't it more prudent to stick with the truth: that on any given day, you might get lucky and win a big wad. And have some fun in the process. At least there's some truth in that kind of advertising. Trying to sell beating the rake is a fool's errand, and certainly not one the tracks should hypocritically try to promote.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

I disagree with this nugget of conventional wisdom as well. The perception needs to be no more than the game is beatable on the shortest possible terms...one day or maybe even one race.

Gambling on horses is not like a long term investment, competing with Chuck Schwab or Vanguard or Fidelity or insurance annuities. I mean, I know a lot on this board treat it so, but really, isn't it more prudent to stick with the truth: that on any given day, you might get lucky and win a big wad. And have some fun in the process. At least there's some truth in that kind of advertising. Trying to sell beating the rake is a fool's errand, and certainly not one the tracks should hypocritically try to promote.
Sure, the quick fix needs to be the main element of focus, but it the game is not perceived beatable to begin with, you aren't going to get many people excited about reading a handicapping book.

[jballscalls]

jballscalls(J.B.) quote from above:





Horse racing has as many great characters as any game in the world. The difference is that the players are not a marketing focus.

AS Richard Duchossois said in 1994 in a DRF interview

Poker has no advantage over horse racing except cost of participating,highlighting enough winners and marketing...but thats enough ,isn't it?

like i said in my post above that you decided not to quote, i am sure horse racing does have many many bettors that are great characters, unfortunately i just havent seen them. if you can point them out to us that would help, cause they sure aren't in my neck of the woods.

do you honestly think it would create fan interest by showing a guy waiting out a pick 6 that pays 50 grand. i would be interested in it, and i'm sure you might be as well, but would a lay fan be?

you see poker players who are 21, 22, 23 years old already competing against the top players in the world. this in turn probably makes other kids and young people that age say "huh i can do this"

i honestly think hold em is an easier game to learn the basics of than horse racing handicapping.

i look around at my track and other tracks and i dont see many 20 somethings who are beating the game, that maybe could be role models or featured as a 'star bettor'

[Robert Goren]

Who has disposable income? Not the younger set.Nobody who bets on a horse race thinks of that money as DISPOSABLE INCOME.

[jballscalls]

Nobody who bets on a horse race thinks of that money as DISPOSABLE INCOME.

my dad used to tell my mom this. "lori i'm not spending money, i'm investing it!"

[kenwoodall2]

People are buying local pro sports team and some other big-name team logoed caps and clothing but do not watch the games.
They use the computer often the same as the cell phone, etc- social networking.
They have no clue about racing except some for the big TC and BC races and hearing the extreme negatives and myths.
ALL would need picking methods that arte greatly simplified.
Racing needs to be easy tyo learn and play.
Racing live also needs some sort of contact to watch.
Racing needs connected siomplified PP's/betting button/video/immediate account adjustment, all avsilsable via I-pad or I-phone.
Racing needs to shoe at the track and at allracing websites that the horses are being cared for properly.

[rwwupl]

jballscalls from above:


i look around at my track and other tracks and i dont see many 20 somethings who are beating the game, that maybe could be role models or featured as a 'star bettor'


I do not think you can look around and see any long term winners at the track,no matter if they are 20 somethings or 60 somethings.

The take out is set so high that no one can win, and therefor you have no "stars" to focus on... isn't that a big part of the problem?

[jballscalls]

jballscalls from above:





I do not think you can look around and see any long term winners at the track,no matter if they are 20 somethings or 60 somethings.

The take out is set so high that no one can win, and therefor you have no "stars" to focus on... isn't that a big part of the problem?

thats not something me as an announcer and marketing guy can control. thats up to the state and the bosses.

marketing is something i can control, so unfortunately we have to work within the parameters set for us.

you get no disagreement with me on the takeout issue, but that seems to be a moot point, so we our discussions need to be on things we can actually have an effect on

[Jeff P]

In all fairness to Craig, he asked a HANA member who lives in Colorado to send me a PM - which happened right before Memorial Day Weekend.

Here's the body of the text from the PM:
Jeff,

I was talking to Craig Braddick (announcer at Arapahoe Park). He is becoming the public liaison more or less and held a users group meeting at the track last night. When the usual discussions of their crappy takeout came up, he said he would like to talk to HANA and have something to take back to his bosses, and as well as possibly have someone on one of his radio shows.

Can someone representing HANA please email him and possibly give him some resources regarding takeout and start a dialog with him please.

His email address is xxxxxxx@gmail.com

Thanks,

The fault for not (yet) getting back to Craig is mine and mine alone.


-jp

.

[jamey1977]

Part of the issue with younger people is the last two generations( Gen X Gen Y) have been taught to believe in instant gratification. People between 18 and 30 have no patience to wait up to 30 mins between wagering opportunities. They want it fast and then they want another right away.
They do not want to read a printed booklet of PP's. Thye want to use their electronic gadgets. IMO PP's will have to be provided at a lower price or even free of charge(no, I'm not starting that debate, another thread another time) and tracks have to set up wifi hotspots so younger people can use their lap tops, net books and i-"devices".
They want color and splash. They want to be entertained.
The people who run this business are going to have to come to the realization that the on-track product alone is not going to get the job done.
Everyone, youngsters are just spoiled brats. They want something for nothing. They don't want to read the form or bet to win, I was at the track. All people were talking about was the damn exactas. To hell with the exactas. Just get one across the darn line first. No promotions. Want to bring the crowds in, have rock bands playing. Bring in some bands. There are many C List Bands who would like gigs and exposure. You don't even have to pay them that much . All of the old guys complain that they are treated like crap. This is true. Offer them free admission. Free admission -50 and up with I.D. This will bring them in. Don't the stupid race track people know that you will get all of their money in handle back anyway.? Have 50 and up free admission days. and 30 and under, free admission days. Also have coaches, have people that teach the others how to make money. No one knows nothing. All they do is follow their dumb dads and their bullcrap exacta box's. There is no quicker way to lose money than betting Exacta boxes. You never win. Betting Win And Place on the contenders is really the best way to make money for the day. I bet to Win and have a lot of slow days but I am long term and profitable in the long run. For the normal horse goer. Promote Win And Place betting at the same time. You old promo guys are not promoting, nothing is being done. It's like you treat people like crap and take all of their money with no coaching or helping. What do you expect.? We need some marketing wizards. In fact, you should all hire all of us who have commented on this thread. We would shake things up . LOL

[rwwupl]

thats not something me as an announcer and marketing guy can control. thats up to the state and the bosses.

marketing is something i can control, so unfortunately we have to work within the parameters set for us.

you get no disagreement with me on the takeout issue, but that seems to be a moot point, so we our discussions need to be on things we can actually have an effect on


J B,

You are doing a fine job ,and I am glad you understand about the take out issue.

Yes, the way it works is that an Association approaches the State Legislature
with a proposal to lower the take for the economic reasons cited. Then you will send home more winners and attract more customers and become more competitive with other forms of gambling.We must grow the fan base.

Horse racing will have to stand on its own, for long term success, and not look to other venues to subsidize it.

The problem with this is that the Associations have not shown any interest in lowering the take, just lip service, that leads many of us to believe that we have the wrong leadership.

That being said, in the long view ,economics will insure that it will happen, and some brave executive will get the credit for standing up and saving the game, and everyone will say...wow, what a great idea, where has this man been?

[jballscalls]

J B,



, and everyone will say...wow, what a great idea, where has this man been?

and we will say "At PaceAdvantage.com!!"

[Stevie Belmont]

Racing needs a Brand identity. And if anyone knows anything about Brands, it's the younger generation.

How do you promote racing to younger people, or for that matter anyone? Focus on what makes the sport go—the Thoroughbreds who go out there and give it all they have. Everything revolves around them. Any marketing campaign should always focus on them, first and foremost.

Not just one Thoroughbred—all of them as a whole.

Why do we have horse racing? Because people want to win the race. Owners, breeder's, trainers, agents, jockeys, grooms, hotwalkers, fans, thoroughbreds and just about everyone associated with the sport. It's about racing, and winning. There has to be a winner, or there would be no race, or sport for that matter. It's been this way from the beginning.

Thoroughbreds and Winning—a concept that can go places.

A Thoroughbred wins the race—one will win everyday around the world at some track.

Pushing the beauty and strength of Thoroughbreds and tie in the competition factor, and people become interested. There is a connection there between equine and human. Most don't know until they look a little closer.

Some people won't become fans no matter what—it's simply not for them, but there are others that could be if they were introduced to the sport.

A few people at my job don't know anything about racing. I took one of them to see Rachel Alexandra last year run in the Mother Goose. They loved it—the track, the horses and the atmosphere.

Understanding the sport is the first step in becoming a fan.

People love to win. And that's what horse racing is all about.

Most people can get turned off when it come to the betting part. It's too hard, they don't understand, what are all these numbers for? Typical responses—but that should not come into any focus until they understand what makes the whole thing go. The Thoroughbred—everything else follows.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Stevie, I think that horse racing has been trying your angle for years.

The game is about gambling. The gambling angle needs to be pushed. But there needs to be winners.

How many new bettors did Rachel create?

[WinterTriangle]

poker has been fortunate to have a ton of great characters

I'll agree with you there are some neat characters in poker, but one of the things I love about horse racing is the characters........that includes the peculiarities of the horses themselves, along with the jockeys and trainers.

The whole interplay is so interesting to me.

Now, I can log in and play online.

For me that only takes care of the gambling part, not the part where I enjoy horse racing purely as a sport. Being at the US Open or Wimbleton is nothing like watching it on TV. Ditto the westminster dog show, etc.

I do like your ideas about closed circuit tv and "lotto-like" tickets.


The game needs to be perceived as beatable long term.

Right now it appears that the model for that is pushing huge amounts of money thru the system and getting rebates.

Most young people have mortgages, are growing families, putting aside $ for college funds, and work normal jobs in the economy to do so. There has to be a way for them to feel they can benefit from the game without placing their children's college fund into a pari mutuel pool....you know, something that won't put them at risk for divorce and other tragedy. :)

Stevie, I agree with some of what you say as the "sport itself" angle has a lure for me and others. There are at least 4 people who post here, who are HUGE racing fans, who live in states where wagering is not allowed, and they can't even get online accounts. Yet, they post here quite a lot and involve themeselves in cheerleeding for our sport.

Of course, they do go on "track vacations" and then they do spend $$$ wagering. So, we can't exclude them.

[rwwupl]

Craigbraddick,

I sent this to Craig a while ago...
---------------------------------------------------

Craig,

Thanks for the input. I understand from checking around that you are making a sincere effort to represent the players in your area. From all concerned (we at HANA) you are doing good. 50% up and full fields in the first week is notable, and you and Arapahoe are due credit.

I understand that you and Jeff Platt had a productive 30 minute telecom a while ago.. We all know everything can not be resolved in 30 minutes, but I think Jeff explained why he was delinquent in responding.

I do not know who else you requested input from at HANA but I know we all want to do what we can to advance the game.

Sorry for any misunderstanding. You were not unfair,and we could have done better.

All the Best, Roger Way,HANA
roger@hanaweb.org

Answer from Craig...

Yes he did and thank you for taking the time to write.
Craig.

[kenwoodall2]

Young people want an identity- a social group, ID by wearing team clothes, winning something so they can show off!
And, one thing not being pushed, is that anyone paying $25 to NTRA can get great discounts on small and big item sponsor's products!
What would you tell newbies who ask- Who are "Horsemen?"; What is a "length?"; What is a racing "fan"?; YHow can I pick a horsem without having to read a lot?; Can I I- or cell my freinds while at the track? Can I go to 1 website and 1-click to PP's or last speed, program, bet, watch race live and replays. cash my bet? What is the latest numbers on horse injury and death, are whips safer?

[Stillriledup]

Horse racing's fan base has declined, and predictably, so has the nation-wide mutual handle. The common opinion, voiced from coast to coast, is that an infusion of young fans is the only thing that can rescue this game from extinction. Many people on this board have offered opinions on the best ways of attracting young people to the track, and converting them into bettors.

The question is...why?

What happened to the "older" players, who have been supporting this game for over 100 years? Have they suddenly died? Have they been lured away by other forms of gambling? Is there an anticipated decline in the over-40 population for the years to come, and we now have to start recruiting young people to help shoulder the responsibility of supporting this game?

IMO, the answer to these question is NO!

The older horseplayers have not died; in fact...with the progress of medicine...they are living longer than ever! Nor have they been lured away by other gambling games. Once a player is "hooked" on this game, it is unlikely that poker or the casinos can lure him away. Poker is too slow-moving, and the casino games too "random" to compare with the intellectual challenge that handicapping and betting provides...when this game is properly managed!

When the game isn't run with competence, chaos prevails and the horseplayers suffer. They sustain heavy loses and give up the game altogether, or their confidence in the game erodes, and they drastically reduce the amounts of money they put into the pools.

Horse racing is suffering a fate similar to any business that offers an inferior product at an inflated price.

The customers stop showing up!

And if the quality and price of the product does not improve...the customers...young and old alike... stay away for good!


The key to getting new customers is to treat the CURRENT customers like GOLD. Word of mouth is what drives many businesses to success. Racing thinks that they can crap on current customers and yet those same customers will go out of their way to 'recruit' new racing fans. Ain't happening.

I would never ever consider introducing anyone i respected or liked into horse racing.

IN fact, i would keep them as far away as possible.

[thaskalos]

The horse racing industry needs to address the problems which have caused the existing fan base to decline.

This is not a new sport that needs to be introduced to the fans for the first time. The game has been going on for well over a century...and it was much more popular 50 years ago than it is today.

You need to ask what happened to the old fans before you go out looking for new fans.

IMO, too many bettors have left the game, or they have drastically reduced their play, because they have suffered heavy loses.

If the players are losing heavily because they are not knowledgeble enough to survive...than the industry has to do a better job educating them.

If the "drug factor" and the heavy takeout are to blame, than those factors have to be addressed as well.

People have proven that they are willing to play a "losing" game (they have been frequenting the casinos for many years), but they demand a certain "bang" for their buck.

And it is obvious that many of them don't think that this game is giving it to them anymore...

[Audioslavery]

You only have to be 18 to play in Cali, i love that! (Being 19)

I don't get why they don't market to the younger crowd! The option is right there in front of them! Of course, I believe marketing departments are virtually inexistent for the big 3 in California.

[Stillriledup]

The horse racing industry needs to address the problems which have caused the existing fan base to decline.

This is not a new sport that needs to be introduced to the fans for the first time. The game has been going on for well over a decade...and it was much more popular 50 years ago than it is today.

You need to ask what happened to the old fans before you go out looking for new fans.

IMO, too many bettors have left the game, or they have drastically reduced their play, because they have suffered heavy loses.

If the players are losing heavily because they are not knowledgeble enough to survive...than the industry has to do a better job educating them.

If the "drug factor" and the heavy takeout are to blame, than those factors have to be addressed as well.

People have proven that they are willing to play a "losing" game (they have been frequenting the casinos for many years), but they demand a certain "bang" for their buck.

And it is obvious that many of them don't think that this game is not giving it to them anymore...

Excellent post. Racing is not caring about the current customers, they dont care where they went, they just want to come up with gimmicky stuff to try and attract new blood, much like a leach does.

The game is not giving current customers anything. They changed surfaces and stuck a knife into older horseplayers who dont want or need a new surface to handicap, they refuse to lower the takeouts, they refuse to clean up the game and get rid of the cheats and so on and so forth.

[badcompany]

jballscalls from above:





I do not think you can look around and see any long term winners at the track,no matter if they are 20 somethings or 60 somethings.

The take out is set so high that no one can win, and therefor you have no "stars" to focus on... isn't that a big part of the problem?

Uh, yeah.

If word spread among the poker kids that horseracing was a beatable game, they'd be putting money through the windows in a hurry.

I'm reminded of an episode of Poker After Dark in which many longtime pros unanimously agreed that horseracing is a bad bet because of the high takeout.

And this idea that kids today don't want to study is absurd. These poker kids study their asses off to learn the math and every other angle of their game. Find me a horse racing book that's a harder read than "Theory of Poker."

[thaskalos]

Uh, yeah.

If word spread among the pokers kids that horseracing was a beatable game, they'd be putting money through the windows in a hurry.

I'm reminded of an episode of Poker After Dark in which many longtime pros unanimously agreed that horseracing is a bad bet because of the high takeout.

This idea that kids today don't want to study is absurd. These poker kids study their asses off to learn the math and every other angle of their game. Find me a horse racing book that's a harder read than "Theory of Poker." Find me a horse racing book at the bookstore...PERIOD! There are tons of poker books...

[therussmeister]

Professional horse players lack something professional poker players have. Ego. It seems many young poker players want fame almost as much as fortune. They want to live the rock-star lifestyle.

It is a rule of poker that your business is kept out in the open for everyone to see. You must keep your chips in plain view at all times. This makes it easy to tell who wins and who loses, whereas horse players business is private. You could sit next to me everyday and would have trouble telling whether I won, lost, or didn't bet, and if I have some sort of subtle "tell" and you can tell when I win, you wouldn't know if I'm betting $2 or $2,000. So the problem with horse racing is its winners are invisible, even to everyday players, and I suspect they want to stay invisible. I know I do.

[cuzimahustler]

Another problem is the money it cost just to play the races AT A TRACK.

$5 to get in $6 for the drf SIX ! $3 for parking... thats 14 Dollars before even making a bet Poker kids could play 1 to around 14 poker tourney's in the comfort of there own home.

[jamey1977]

Find me a horse racing book at the bookstore...PERIOD! There are tons of poker books...
One Of the Best Books Of All - I Bought This At Frank And Peter's Book Signing At Santa Anita In 2005. I Said " I Don't Want To Work At Taco Bell For The Rest Of My Crappy Life. I Want To Be A Pro Horseplayer. " And Frank Said. ' Read the Book. And Do What It Says. The Book- '" Six Secrets Of Successful Bettors " This Is The Real Deal. No Bullcrap. No Betting To Get Rebates. I Bet Straight To Turn A Profit. Thanks To Frank And Peter. I Don't Have To Work For Anyone But Myself. I Made It.

[thaskalos]

Professional horse players lack something professional poker players have. Ego. It seems many young poker players want fame almost as much as fortune. They want to live the rock-star lifestyle.

It is a rule of poker that your business is kept out in the open for everyone to see. You must keep your chips in plain view at all times. This makes it easy to tell who wins and who loses, whereas horse players business is private. You could sit next to me everyday and would have trouble telling whether I won, lost, or didn't bet, and if I have some sort of subtle "tell" and you can tell when I win, you wouldn't know if I'm betting $2 or $2,000. So the problem with horse racing is its winners are invisible, even to everyday players, and I suspect they want to stay invisible. I know I do. We all want to keep our business private...but we should also recognize the importance of "role models", in sports...and in life in general.

Every kid on a basketball court dreams of being like Kobe or Lebron. On the baseball diamonds, the kids dream of being the next Jeter or Pujols. The online poker kids want to follow in the success of Phil Ivey or Patrik Antonius (who won $9M playing online poker last year.)

Whom do the horseplayers have as inspiration? Is it possible for a horseplayer to create a life solely from betting on horses...without ending up divorced, alone and dispised...living in a 1-bedroom apartment...and eating ravioli out of a can?

[letswastemoney]

The learning curve for horse racing is too steep for some people. It takes a long time not just to understand how to read past performances, but to understand patterns that are special to each track. Patterns that are special to each jockey/trainer. When to trust beyer figures, when not to. How to analyze how a sloppy track might affect a race. How to know which sires specialize in producing what kind of offspring.

Because I've been doing this since I was 5 or 6, up until now (I'm 27), I've memorized every sire and their history by now, because I basically watched and followed all of the sires back in their racing days. I know Unusual Heats are more trusthworthy on synth. I know AP Indys have a lot of stamina in them. But a newcomer is not going to know at first what each of the hundreds of sires available is strong in producing. It's a hard game to get into.

That's why I think it's easier to get into it when you're younger, because the learning curve is so steep.

[kenwoodall2]

The learning curve for horse racing is too steep for some people. It takes a long time not just to understand how to read past performances, but to understand patterns that are special to each track. Patterns that are special to each jockey/trainer. When to trust beyer figures, when not to. How to analyze how a sloppy track might affect a race. How to know which sires specialize in producing what kind of offspring.

Because I've been doing this since I was 5 or 6, up until now (I'm 27), I've memorized every sire and their history by now, because I basically watched and followed all of the sires back in their racing days. I know Unusual Heats are more trusthworthy on synth. I know AP Indys have a lot of stamina in them. But a newcomer is not going to know at first what each of the hundreds of sires available is strong in producing. It's a hard game to get into.

That's why I think it's easier to get into it when you're younger, because the learning curve is so steep.
I actually agree with most of what you say, but there are many ways to handicap, but whatever way, it must overcome the player next to you and takeout. All races do not require full PP handicapping. The first thing newbies need to learn is what factors to use for what kind of race. I assume AP Indy decendents are not as important to you in sprints, for instance? You may handicap tracks with fastest pars differently than others? Some races have the M/L fav with very low "odds" on the M/L, suspect of being an underlay if only because of a good last race, and look for overlays? If any Belmont Stakes runners this year have won anything at 1 1/2, worth a look?

[PhantomOnTour]

The education of a horseplayer:
LOSE AND LEARN

The experience of most casual racegoers:
LOSE AND LEAVE

[Stillriledup]

The learning curve for horse racing is too steep for some people. It takes a long time not just to understand how to read past performances, but to understand patterns that are special to each track. Patterns that are special to each jockey/trainer. When to trust beyer figures, when not to. How to analyze how a sloppy track might affect a race. How to know which sires specialize in producing what kind of offspring.

Because I've been doing this since I was 5 or 6, up until now (I'm 27), I've memorized every sire and their history by now, because I basically watched and followed all of the sires back in their racing days. I know Unusual Heats are more trusthworthy on synth. I know AP Indys have a lot of stamina in them. But a newcomer is not going to know at first what each of the hundreds of sires available is strong in producing. It's a hard game to get into.

That's why I think it's easier to get into it when you're younger, because the learning curve is so steep.


This is a good post, but here's the thing. We're assuming that all these people are looking to become serious bettors. People stick money into slot machines, walk up to a blackjack table and play a few hands, make a sports bet without doing a speck of research on the teams and so on. Why do these same 'stabbers' need to become experts in horseracing, but they can stab on other games?

Racing doesn't need more intellectuals, it just needs the slots players, sports coin flippers and blackjack stabbers to 'stab' with horses once in a while. Just bet a name or a number.

[thespaah]

The learning curve for horse racing is too steep for some people. It takes a long time not just to understand how to read past performances, but to understand patterns that are special to each track. Patterns that are special to each jockey/trainer. When to trust beyer figures, when not to. How to analyze how a sloppy track might affect a race. How to know which sires specialize in producing what kind of offspring.

Because I've been doing this since I was 5 or 6, up until now (I'm 27), I've memorized every sire and their history by now, because I basically watched and followed all of the sires back in their racing days. I know Unusual Heats are more trusthworthy on synth. I know AP Indys have a lot of stamina in them. But a newcomer is not going to know at first what each of the hundreds of sires available is strong in producing. It's a hard game to get into.

That's why I think it's easier to get into it when you're younger, because the learning curve is so steep.
It is. If one wishes to become a dedicated handicapper.
My friend's dad has been going to the races for nearly all of his 73 years and still to this day he doesn't bother with past performances or a racing form.

[thespaah]

This is a good post, but here's the thing. We're assuming that all these people are looking to become serious bettors. People stick money into slot machines, walk up to a blackjack table and play a few hands, make a sports bet without doing a speck of research on the teams and so on. Why do these same 'stabbers' need to become experts in horseracing, but they can stab on other games?

Racing doesn't need more intellectuals, it just needs the slots players, sports coin flippers and blackjack stabbers to 'stab' with horses once in a while. Just bet a name or a number.
Correct!!!Get them to the track. Get them to wager on the races! THAT is the goal.

[thaskalos]

It is. If one wishes to become a dedicated handicapper.
My friend's dad has been going to the races for nearly all of his 73 years and still to this day he doesn't bother with past performances or a racing form. Is he a 10%er?

[thaskalos]

This is a good post, but here's the thing. We're assuming that all these people are looking to become serious bettors. People stick money into slot machines, walk up to a blackjack table and play a few hands, make a sports bet without doing a speck of research on the teams and so on. Why do these same 'stabbers' need to become experts in horseracing, but they can stab on other games?

Racing doesn't need more intellectuals, it just needs the slots players, sports coin flippers and blackjack stabbers to 'stab' with horses once in a while. Just bet a name or a number. If the horseplayer does not develop a certain degree of competence, he will never stick around for long. This game is very unforgiving to novice players...it's not like sports or blackjack, where even by "stabbing" you can still expect to win a decent % of the time. In this game...even expert handicappers experience loooong losing streaks.

And you can't count on a long string of "stabbers", because this game does not appeal to the largest part of the gambling population.

Sure...there are some senior citizens who have been hanging around the tracks and OTBs for years without any past performances, but they don't bet...they are either 10%ers, or just there to "kill" a few hours of an otherwise boring day.

[kenwoodall2]

" Why do these same 'stabbers' need to become experts in horseracing, but they can stab on other games"

This is the idea for my "Lucky Longshot" bet- Anyone can step up and bet $1 or $2 on the feature of the day or any race, but this special pool only pays off if the longest shot in the regular win pool wins the race. It is like a progressive pool (just another name for carryover?) until the longest shot wins, then pool is split after takeout among longshot ticket holders. Pool ends on the last day and whoever wins the last feature or last race of the day, the pool is split among those ticket holders. So the last race of the meet pool is split among those who pick the true winner. Large "progressive" pot for those counting on luck; reward for good horseplayers to take whatever remains in the pool.

[thespaah]

Is he a 10%er?One of those senior citizens that cashes big tickets so the real winner can avoid taxes? No....

[thespaah]

If the horseplayer does not develop a certain degree of competence, he will never stick around for long. This game is very unforgiving to novice players...it's not like sports or blackjack, where even by "stabbing" you can still expect to win a decent % of the time. In this game...even expert handicappers experience loooong losing streaks.

And you can't count on a long string of "stabbers", because this game does not appeal to the largest part of the gambling population.

Sure...there are some senior citizens who have been hanging around the tracks and OTBs for years without any past performances, but they don't bet...they are either 10%ers, or just there to "kill" a few hours of an otherwise boring day."don't bet?" You mean at all?....
Where you people acquire your perceptions is a mystery.

[46zilzal]

Quinn wrote a very good book which few know of call On Track/Off Track where he has several chapters on the delusional state of marketing our races.


p.169-195 One chapter is priceless as it is called The Cart, The Horse and Customer Education.

[Stevie Belmont]

Abosolutley the game is about gambling. Winning—gambling.

I was in the new Yankee Stadium yesterday. I kept saying to myself if horse racing ever became a commerical sell out like MLB and the money hungry NY Yankees I would be done with it.

Being at Belmont and and the new Yankee Stadium in one week was interesting.

I would pick Belmont Park every time and any time. For that matter any track.




Stevie, I think that horse racing has been trying your angle for years.

The game is about gambling. The gambling angle needs to be pushed. But there needs to be winners.

How many new bettors did Rachel create?

[badcompany]

Abosolutley the game is about gambling. Winning—gambling.



There is a wide gulf between 2% long term winners, which is what horseracing has now, IMO, and 10% which is what horseracing should have if it wants to compete with other forms of "beatable" gambling games.

[Robert Goren]

Abosolutley the game is about gambling. Winning—gambling.

I was in the new Yankee Stadium yesterday. I kept saying to myself if horse racing ever became a commerical sell out like MLB and the money hungry NY Yankees I would be done with it.

Being at Belmont and and the new Yankee Stadium in one week was interesting.

I would pick Belmont Park every time and any time. For that matter any track. It is not necessarily about winning gambling, but the illusion of winning gambling. Right now horse racing does not have that illusion. Very few people view a trip to the track as a way to make money even the short run. People go to casino because they think they can make money on this trip even though they know deep down inside that they will lose in the long run. JMO

[Horseplayersbet.com]

It is not necessarily about winning gambling, but the illusion of winning gambling. Right now horse racing does not have that illusion. Very few people view a trip to the track as a way to make money even the short run. People go to casino because they think they can make money on this trip even though they know deep down inside that they will lose in the long run. JMO
I agree with this. It is the perception that counts. You don't need that many winners.

An overwhelming majority of people lose money playing poker on line. The math is simple. The house doesn't lose, and there are some winners.

The only thing with horse racing is that it becomes a long term project just getting past the learning curve, which is probably more reason for the winners to be identified and publicized.

[rwwupl]

http://www.aurorasentinel.com/articles/2010/06/03/living/features/doc4c07d3bfd76bc758317990.txt

Trying to make a difference...

Braddick attributes the track’s recent success to new Colorado laws that went into effect this year benefiting the racing industry and to the diverse crowd that comes to Arapahoe Park. Normally a sport popular with older men, the crowd this opening weekend included men and women of all ages and families with small children.

[rastajenk]

What racing really needs to get more younger people is more Dude horses! :eek:

Think of the possibilities, and the missed opportunities:
Seattle Dude
Spectacular Dude
Easy Goin' Dude
Big Brown Dude
Funny Dude
Barbadude
Real Quiet Dude
Charismatic Dude
AP Dude

If a Dude ever wins the Derby, it will open a whole new era in the naming of horses.