Monmouth Park has doubled all-sources handle (so far) [Archive] - Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com

The_Knight_Sky

06-01-2010, 09:16 AM

Attendance was 15094 on Sunday, not 15904.

Good catch on the typo.
Here's the corrected spreadsheet so the attendance is now 28.7% up in the opening stanzas.

It's still a very long way to go Comet, but I'd like to see Monmouth
carve a niche by bringing down the takeouts on the trifecta and supers
to the teens by next year. :ThmbUp:

http://i46.tinypic.com/sesume.jpg

Foolish Pleasure

06-01-2010, 10:02 AM

Monmouth Park has doubled all-sources handle.

WOW so they only did $20million in handle in May 2009? I guess it really didn't double did it? Since they obviously did a lot more than $20million last year.

How about May of 2006? Back when they were doing $5million a card and running 5 days a week. What did they do for May that year? $50something million?

The_Knight_Sky

06-01-2010, 10:57 AM

Monmouth Park has doubled all-sources handle.

WOW so they only did $20million in handle in May 2009? I guess it really didn't double did it? Since they obviously did a lot more than $20million last year.

They did 17 million for the corresponding two weekends last year.

http://i49.tinypic.com/116jts4.jpg

I'm sure there will be skeptics who may be quietly rooting "against" Monmouth Park.
But I think as a horseplayer you have to root for it.
Higher purses will lead to larger fields leading to more wagering.

At some point when the wagering "bottoms out" all racetracks will have
to address their takeout rates on the individual pools as well.

The 15% Pick 4 and Pick 5 has been well received and the numbers show it.
For now the focus is on Monmouth Park being able to go to Trenton
and say:
"We followed the Governor's plan. It worked. Let's do it again in 2011."

rwwupl

06-01-2010, 11:21 AM

Thanks to The Knight Sky for this fine report and sharing it with us. His blog is always a worthy read

http://theknightskyracing.blogspot.com/2010/05/flying-out-of-gate-monmouths-number-up.html

This report can also be found on http://www.paulickreport.com/ ...

Lets hope the Monmouth experiment brings light and shows another path to success. So far...so good.

From Above...

At some point when the wagering "bottoms out" all racetracks will have
to address their takeout rates on the individual pools as well.

The_Knight_Sky

06-01-2010, 03:52 PM

Thanks for the kindness rwwupl. I have outlined four legs to Monmouth's success. All four must continue to uphold their end of the bargain right up until Labor Day.

One of them is the fact that horse players have embraced the Pick 4's and Pick 5's which tend to have three to five times the pools size as the counterproductive Pick 3 pools. And that has created a "trickle down" effect to the other pools.

Simply compare the Takeout Rates. I need not say any more other than I'd like to see all wagering pools at 15% or below. It is long overdue at every American racetrack.

http://i46.tinypic.com/29xut68.jpg (http://theknightskyracing.blogspot.com/2010/05/flying-out-of-gate-monmouths-number-up.html)
http://theknightskyracing.blogspot.com/2010/05/flying-out-of-gate-monmouths-number-up.html

the little guy

06-01-2010, 04:04 PM

I have outlined four legs to Monmouth's success.

How are handle numbers that create income of over $300K below purses considered a " success? "

Monmouth is to be commended for creating great fan interest and dramatically increasing handle above what anyone could have realistically considered possible. There is a tremendous amount of good for horseplayers, which is a great thing, but your choice of words does not appropriately describe the situation.

philcski

06-01-2010, 04:13 PM

They did 17 million for the corresponding two weekends last year.

I'm sure there will be skeptics who may be quietly rooting "against" Monmouth Park.
But I think as a horseplayer you have to root for it.
Higher purses will lead to larger fields leading to more wagering.

At some point when the wagering "bottoms out" all racetracks will have
to address their takeout rates on the individual pools as well.

The 15% Pick 4 and Pick 5 has been well received and the numbers show it.
For now the focus is on Monmouth Park being able to go to Trenton
and say:
"We followed the Governor's plan. It worked. Let's do it again in 2011."

Nice job.

Seems like the only people rooting against this are the same people who didn't want it to work in the first place.

Stevie Belmont

06-01-2010, 04:20 PM

Just have to keep it going. Entering the backstretch now. Long way to go yet.

Belmont Park Saturday—might try to get down on Sunday.

the little guy

06-01-2010, 04:20 PM

Nice job.

Seems like the only people rooting against this are the same people who didn't want it to work in the first place.

Please provide some posts that demonstrate posters " rooting against this. "

I can't recall seeing any.

tbwinner

06-01-2010, 04:27 PM

Didn't they say they needed double the handle to sustain the new purses?

Looking very good so far, hopefully everything will cooperate (esp. as The_Knight_Sky brought up with weather - that's a big one to sustaining on-track handle)

foregoforever

06-01-2010, 04:34 PM

"Skeptic" does not mean "root against".

I don't root against anyone, other than the Philadelphia Flyers. But I'm skeptical of Monmouth being touted as a great success when it's a completely unsustainable financial model.

The only reason Monmouth is doing well with handle is because they're getting better horses and fuller fields, and the only reason that's happening is that they got a massive HAND-OUT from the casinos that has enabled them to inflate purses beyond all reason.

So unless you're willing to throw the fate of the sport even more into the hands of politicians and rely on their gracious HAND-OUTS, I don't see how you can classify Monmouth as a meaningful experiment, much less a success.

Go Blackhawks!

philcski

06-01-2010, 04:34 PM

Please provide some posts that demonstrate posters " rooting against this. "

I can't recall seeing any.

how many do you want? here's one from just 10 minutes ago...
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=906663&postcount=77

And let's face it, you are not happy about their performance. It's OK to be introspective and admit you didn't think they can pull off what they've done so far. As for measuring success by their handle still coming up short of what's theoretically required to pay the purses... all they need to accomplish the task of keeping the noncompete bribe the AC casinos are offering. When you start the year $15 million in the black, and the objective is to break even... you can lose $300k a day for 50 days.

onefast99

06-01-2010, 04:36 PM

Please provide some posts that demonstrate posters " rooting against this. "

I can't recall seeing any.
A few have commented on the large track take-out and said they wouldn't play Monmouth for that fact alone. I read a lot of the previous posts on MP and it seemed everyone wanted this experiment to work from a survival standpoint.

Robert Goren

06-01-2010, 04:38 PM

Please provide some posts that demonstrate posters " rooting against this. "

I can't recall seeing any.I am and I make no bones about it. I want to prove once and for all that increasing purses instead of lower takeout is a wrong headed idea. I do not want any more race tracks that are to hang on to try this instead of cutting take out. I can not understand why every gambler is not hoping for the same thing. If this works, hell will freeze over before any track anywhere will cut takeout. JMO

the little guy

06-01-2010, 04:49 PM

And let's face it, you are not happy about their performance.

You're one nervy guy, I'll give you that.

There's really nothing better than someone who decides for others how they feel about situations. Good luck with that.

philcski

06-01-2010, 04:57 PM

You're one nervy guy, I'll give you that.

There's really nothing better than someone who decides for others how they feel about situations. Good luck with that.

I'll take that as a compliment, I guess.

Hey, I would feel the same way. If I were a banana salesman and the guy down the street suddenly started selling double what he used to- I'd be concerned for myself. You know me, I'm a New Yorker. I want NYRA to be the best circuit in the world. But little bro across the river has done something right, something which could be very good for the business as a whole, and they should be viewed as a model for other tracks to get back on their feet.

All I'm saying is a few weeks ago you were adamant they couldn't improve handle by 15%, and now they're up 100%, and you STILL are finding fault with their business model. THAT is nervy, IMO.

Robert Goren

06-01-2010, 05:07 PM

I'll take that as a compliment, I guess.

Hey, I would feel the same way. If I were a banana salesman and the guy down the street suddenly started selling double what he used to- I'd be concerned for myself. You know me, I'm a New Yorker. I want NYRA to be the best circuit in the world. But little bro across the river has done something right, something which could be very good for the business as a whole, and they should be viewed as a model for other tracks to get back on their feet.

All I'm saying is a few weeks ago you were adamant they couldn't improve handle by 15%, and now they're up 100%, and you STILL are finding fault with their business model. THAT is nervy, IMO. It is still very early. There were posts predicting 300%. Are they backing off? The 2nd to last week in June(18th-20th) will be good test.

philcski

06-01-2010, 05:13 PM

It is still very early. There were posts predicting 300%. Are they backing off? The 2nd to last week in June(18th-20th) will be good test.

Kulina, NJSEA, et al were hoping for 25% year over year. How's that looking? Posts predicting 300% are absurd, of course.

Out of curiosity, why do you think the 2nd to last week in June so important?

andymays

06-01-2010, 05:27 PM

Monmouth business booming

http://www.drf.com/news/article/113488.html

Excerpt:

Over the first five days, average handle has been $8,263,283 per card, up 162 percent compared to the total average for a 93-day meet last year and up 122 percent compared to the handle on corresponding dates last year, according to figures supplied by Monmouth and on race charts. Average attendance is up 86 percent, while field size has increased by nearly two horses per race, from 7.5 last year to 9.4 this year.

Excerpt:

Drazin said that the New Jersey Sports and Exposition Authority budgeted for average handle of $4.5 million this year, compared to $3.15 million last year. "Secretly, everyone was hoping for six," Drazin said, "and now everyone is just astounded that we're over eight."

Cardus

06-01-2010, 05:37 PM

how many do you want? here's one from just 10 minutes ago...
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=906663&postcount=77

And let's face it, you are not happy about their performance. It's OK to be introspective and admit you didn't think they can pull off what they've done so far. As for measuring success by their handle still coming up short of what's theoretically required to pay the purses... all they need to accomplish the task of keeping the noncompete bribe the AC casinos are offering. When you start the year $15 million in the black, and the objective is to break even... you can lose $300k a day for 50 days.

The post you cited above is not an example of someone rooting against Monmouth.

Arno illustrated reasons why people are going to the track.

He is cautious about jumping to a conclusion off of two weekends.

And he indicates in his profile that he is from New Jersey, so even if someone disagreed with this take on the meet thus far, it is unlikely that he has an anti-Monmouth agenda.

philcski

06-01-2010, 06:06 PM

The post you cited above is not an example of someone rooting against Monmouth.

Arno illustrated reasons why people are going to the track.

He is cautious about jumping to a conclusion off of two weekends.

And he indicates in his profile that he is from New Jersey, so even if someone disagreed with this take on the meet thus far, it is unlikely that he has an anti-Monmouth agenda.

Oh come on, that's bullsh*t. Those events haven't even happened yet other than the first one!!! And I seriously doubt attendance was up 80% Saturday because of some stupid Hot Dog eating contest. It's absolutely fine to be cautious about jumping to conclusions off two weekends, but to outright lie why people are showing up is ridiculous. People are showing up because the racing has been great and worth going to.

It's also interesting that people are quoting dollars bet per person on track now. It has been the same for at least 10 years- NYRA averages $200/person, NJ averages $100/person. No different this year. Don't believe me, look up some old charts.

Just because you're from NJ means you love Monmouth? Disagree with that, too.

1. Munchmobile Hot Dog Showdown 5/30
2. Jersey Shore Jazz and Blues Festival 6/5-6/6
3. Crab Cake Cook Off 8/21-8/22
4. BBQ and Craft Beer Festival 9/4-9/5
5. Cooler Bag Giveaway 9/18
6. Win and Wine Weekend 6/12-6/13
7. Umbrella Giveaway 7/3
8. Parrot day in the Park 7/17
9. Cooler Bag Giveaway 9/18 (listed twice)

skate

06-01-2010, 06:29 PM

Keep er going Philcski.

These girls read between the lines ONLY when it fits Them.

You got facts on you side

Knight IS Right...:)

Dahoss9698

06-01-2010, 06:43 PM

Keep er going Philcski.

These girls read between the lines ONLY when it fits Them.

You got facts on you side

Knight IS Right...:)

Sharp post

:lol:

Cardus

06-01-2010, 06:46 PM

Oh come on, that's bullsh*t. Those events haven't even happened yet other than the first one!!! And I seriously doubt attendance was up 80% Saturday because of some stupid Hot Dog eating contest. It's absolutely fine to be cautious about jumping to conclusions off two weekends, but to outright lie why people are showing up is ridiculous. People are showing up because the racing has been great and worth going to.

It's also interesting that people are quoting dollars bet per person on track now. It has been the same for at least 10 years- NYRA averages $200/person, NJ averages $100/person. No different this year. Don't believe me, look up some old charts.

Just because you're from NJ means you love Monmouth? Disagree with that, too.

1. Munchmobile Hot Dog Showdown 5/30
2. Jersey Shore Jazz and Blues Festival 6/5-6/6
3. Crab Cake Cook Off 8/21-8/22
4. BBQ and Craft Beer Festival 9/4-9/5
5. Cooler Bag Giveaway 9/18
6. Win and Wine Weekend 6/12-6/13
7. Umbrella Giveaway 7/3
8. Parrot day in the Park 7/17
9. Cooler Bag Giveaway 9/18 (listed twice)

What words in his post, Phil, illustrate your point? Quote the words in his post that illustrate that he is "rooting against" Monmouth's success?

Where are they?

06-01-2010, 06:47 PM

What words in his post, Phil, illustrate your point? Quote the words in his post that illustrate that he is "rooting against" Monmouth's success?

Where are they?

I would say there is a 99.98% chance Arno really wants Monmouth to succeed since it is his home track and he is there most days of the meet.

Cardus

06-01-2010, 06:49 PM

Oh come on, that's bullsh*t. Those events haven't even happened yet other than the first one!!! And I seriously doubt attendance was up 80% Saturday because of some stupid Hot Dog eating contest. It's absolutely fine to be cautious about jumping to conclusions off two weekends, but to outright lie why people are showing up is ridiculous. People are showing up because the racing has been great and worth going to.

It's also interesting that people are quoting dollars bet per person on track now. It has been the same for at least 10 years- NYRA averages $200/person, NJ averages $100/person. No different this year. Don't believe me, look up some old charts.

Just because you're from NJ means you love Monmouth? Disagree with that, too.

1. Munchmobile Hot Dog Showdown 5/30
2. Jersey Shore Jazz and Blues Festival 6/5-6/6
3. Crab Cake Cook Off 8/21-8/22
4. BBQ and Craft Beer Festival 9/4-9/5
5. Cooler Bag Giveaway 9/18
6. Win and Wine Weekend 6/12-6/13
7. Umbrella Giveaway 7/3
8. Parrot day in the Park 7/17
9. Cooler Bag Giveaway 9/18 (listed twice)

Arno typed that people "will come" for those events below, not that they have come for those events as if they have already happened.

I didn't need to see the dates added to each event to know that only one has occurred.

skate

06-01-2010, 06:58 PM

I would say there is a 99.98% chance Arno really wants Monmouth to succeed since it is his home track and he is there most days of the meet.

But, does he win? chances are at least 99.9% negatory.;)

06-01-2010, 07:02 PM

But, does he win? chances are at least 99.9% negatory.;)

Actually, since I know him, I suspect he does win, but what in the hell does that have to do with this thread?

Cardus

06-01-2010, 07:11 PM

But, does he win? chances are at least 99.9% negatory.;)

Keep er going, Skate.

You have the irrelevant posts on your side.

philcski

06-01-2010, 07:14 PM

What words in his post, Phil, illustrate your point? Quote the words in his post that illustrate that he is "rooting against" Monmouth's success?

Where are they?

"When the track loses the AC subsidy next year and the fields are back to 6 and 7 lets see if the out of town internet player bets MTH."

That is awfully cynical for someone who wants them to succeed...

but what does this matter to you?

Cardus

06-01-2010, 07:18 PM

"When the track loses the AC subsidy next year and the fields are back to 6 and 7 lets see if the out of town internet player bets MTH."

That is awfully cynical for someone who wants them to succeed...

but what does this matter to you?

That is not remotely close to "rooting against," and you know it.

philcski

06-01-2010, 07:23 PM

That is not remotely close to "rooting against," and you know it.

Fine, it isn't enough for you (even though I feel it is)... Robert Goren took care of the response for me.

arno

06-01-2010, 08:16 PM

I am rooting for Monmouth to suceed.

However I will shed a tear tomorrow when the paddock is empty as Monmouth is dark tomorrow when previoulsy they would be opened.

See I am a horseplayer and these gimmicks do not expose the masses to the game just the physical track that is called Monmouth Park.

Do I win?
I have for the past few years.
Ask CJ why

skate

06-01-2010, 08:32 PM

Actually, since I know him, I suspect he does win, but what in the hell does that have to do with this thread?

You are the one to put him here and interpret a seeming fact that "since he goes to this track, he likes the track"

So, the friggin fact that he goes to the track means NOTHING and would actually be very Negatory IFIN he lost and has traits "Like Crying when he lost".

i was thinking it to be "self explaining".

No offense, it's just what the Hell i was thinking- relax!

;)

The Hawk

06-01-2010, 09:57 PM

I am rooting for Monmouth to suceed.

However I will shed a tear tomorrow when the paddock is empty as Monmouth is dark tomorrow when previoulsy they would be opened.

See I am a horseplayer and these gimmicks do not expose the masses to the game just the physical track that is called Monmouth Park.

Save your tears. They weren't open the Wednesday after Memorial Day last year, either.

PaceAdvantage

06-02-2010, 03:16 AM

That is awfully cynical for someone who wants them to succeed...

but what does this matter to you?Face it...you were wrong...BUT, since you seem to think that they are so plentiful, why not simply reference another clear "rooting against" example...

JustRalph

06-02-2010, 04:14 AM

I keep reading all this congratulatory crap about all Monmouth has accomplished........ isn't it a little early to be acting like they have solved the giant puzzle of racing ?

I don't think you will be able to tell anything until the last week of the meet. I watched it a few days....played a few races.... wasn't impressed with the cards......so I haven't been playing Monmouth the last few days. .

Sometimes larger fields aren't better and I think that is one thing Monmouth has proven so far. I am not a fan of the subsidy for horses who do nothing more than leave the gate. I think it hurts the horseplayer in the long run. I got enough crap to consider in a race. I don't need to be trying to figure out who is there for the "show up money"

I say we let this experiment play out a little more before we start any sword fights over it...........

arno

06-02-2010, 06:18 AM

MTH was open last year the first Wed of June.
I should know I was there

Save your tears. They weren't open the Wednesday after Memorial Day last year, either.

Brogan

06-02-2010, 07:14 AM

MTH was open last year the first Wed of June.
I should know I was there
Memorial Day 2009 was 5/25. May 27th, the Wednesday after Memorial Day, Monmouth was dark.

June 3, 2009 was the first Wednesday of the the meet.

Robert Goren

06-02-2010, 07:50 AM

Kulina, NJSEA, et al were hoping for 25% year over year. How's that looking? Posts predicting 300% are absurd, of course.

Out of curiosity, why do you think the 2nd to last week in June so important?The newness will be over and the Belmont is over. It will just be a typical weekend. A forbearer of things to come.JMO

philcski

06-02-2010, 09:41 AM

Face it...you were wrong...BUT, since you seem to think that they are so plentiful, why not simply reference another clear "rooting against" example...

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=906672&postcount=17

posted in this thread, 5 minutes later... not sure why I bother, though.

Kimsus

06-02-2010, 09:55 AM

It is still very early. There were posts predicting 300%. Are they backing off? The 2nd to last week in June(18th-20th) will be good test.

I don't understand your negativity towards this, they are only 5 days into the meet and early returns it has been a success. Handle has increased from last year as measured against themselves not Belmont or Saratoga as some will make it to be, attendence has increased, the fields are better, the connections racing are better, there are higher profile jockies, I don't know about you but as a bettor I like full quality fields running for large purses and different horses facing each other rather than the same old tired lot beating each other...time and time again.

Like it or not there is a buzz this year at Monmouth, this old tired guard that always seems to resist change is tiresome, the only question is will this be sustainable in the long run. This is a fair question, however if you are a fan of racing, as I am I'll take the minimum 1 year experiment and enjoy the racing the rest of the meet. There's always Belmont for those that like the same menu week in week out... :sleeping:

rrbauer

06-02-2010, 10:09 AM

Meanwhile, if you can avoid the spray from all of the pissing, here's an adjunct to the thread's main theme:

http://www.drf.com/news/article/113488.html

rwwupl

06-02-2010, 11:19 AM

Meanwhile, if you can avoid the spray from all of the pissing, here's an adjunct to the thread's main theme:

http://www.drf.com/news/article/113488.html

From this article , I think this stat is eye popping...

Monmouth has also experienced newfound success with its pick five wager. This year, average handle for the 50-cent minimum bet has been $275,000, a ten-fold increase over average handle last year on the bet. Part of that success can be attributed to a $123,000 carryover after the first card, which attracted $560,000 in new wagers, but the lowest the bet has handled has been $193,000.

the little guy

06-02-2010, 11:36 AM

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=906672&postcount=17

posted in this thread, 5 minutes later... not sure why I bother, though.

Small problem....that post was made after your contention.

philcski

06-02-2010, 11:42 AM

Small problem....that post was made after your contention.

OK. Same guy- earlier in the day. I'm done with this conversation.

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=906383&postcount=57

thespaah

06-02-2010, 11:42 AM

Attendance was 15094 on Sunday, not 15904.picky picky picky

thespaah

06-02-2010, 11:46 AM

How are handle numbers that create income of over $300K below purses considered a " success? "

Monmouth is to be commended for creating great fan interest and dramatically increasing handle above what anyone could have realistically considered possible. There is a tremendous amount of good for horseplayers, which is a great thing, but your choice of words does not appropriately describe the situation.
So the "all sources handle" doens't count? Only on track is to be considered?
C'mon Andy. You are more enlightened than that.

Robert Goren

06-02-2010, 11:53 AM

I don't understand your negativity towards this, they are only 5 days into the meet and early returns it has been a success. Handle has increased from last year as measured against themselves not Belmont or Saratoga as some will make it to be, attendence has increased, the fields are better, the connections racing are better, there are higher profile jockies, I don't know about you but as a bettor I like full quality fields running for large purses and different horses facing each other rather than the same old tired lot beating each other...time and time again.

Like it or not there is a buzz this year at Monmouth, this old tired guard that always seems to resist change is tiresome, the only question is will this be sustainable in the long run. This is a fair question, however if you are a fan of racing, as I am I'll take the minimum 1 year experiment and enjoy the racing the rest of the meet. There's always Belmont for those that like the same menu week in week out... :sleeping: It is pretty simple, the takeout has remained the same. Although there is not much difference, I do prefer Belmont because there is a lower takeout in the win pool. Go ahead keep betting Monmouth, if you don't care about be ripped off when it comes to takeout. Like it or not, if this succeeds, no track will ever consider lowering the takeout as a way to save itself. To me this is not change but more of the same rip off week after week. JMO

thespaah

06-02-2010, 11:54 AM

I am and I make no bones about it. I want to prove once and for all that increasing purses instead of lower takeout is a wrong headed idea. I do not want any more race tracks that are to hang on to try this instead of cutting take out. I can not understand why every gambler is not hoping for the same thing. If this works, hell will freeze over before any track anywhere will cut takeout. JMO
Disagree. Only hard core big bettors consume themselves with takeout.
Most others look for big fields and lots of races on a given day's program.
It is my observation that Mth's increase in field size has been the big draw.
Would I like to see takeouts reduced. You betcha. But doing that alone will not attract more people on track or increase handle off track.
Which is better, 5- 7 horse fields running for small purses with 10% takeouts or 11 horse fields ( more potential value plays) with 17% WPS/EX takeouts?

philcski

06-02-2010, 12:05 PM

the little guy

06-02-2010, 01:06 PM

So the "all sources handle" doens't count? Only on track is to be considered?
C'mon Andy. You are more enlightened than that.

If only people would try to figure things out for themselves before taking an internet shot. Obviously I included all handle.

peakpros

06-02-2010, 02:50 PM

picky picky picky

I don't see anything wrong with being factual when you are discussing averages.

I guess it's OK if a teller short changes you 5% or so, every once and a while.

Kimsus

06-02-2010, 03:06 PM

It is pretty simple, the takeout has remained the same. Although there is not much difference, I do prefer Belmont because there is a lower takeout in the win pool. Go ahead keep betting Monmouth, if you don't care about be ripped off when it comes to takeout. Like it or not, if this succeeds, no track will ever consider lowering the takeout as a way to save itself. To me this is not change but more of the same rip off week after week. JMO

Everyone is different, every bettor is different. If Charlestown or Mountaineer had the lowest takeout I doubt their handle would improve exponentially. To me the quality of racing matters, fields matter, connections matter, quality matters, attendence matters, purses matter, it all adds to the experience. I'm sure there is a minority of bettors that consider takeout their biggest incentive, to me it isn't. To me racing is more than just looking for the lowest takeout, there are intangibles. Like I said if Mountaineer had the lowest takeout on the planet, I wouldn't rush out and make it my main playing track just because of this.

Robert Goren

06-02-2010, 03:41 PM

Disagree. Only hard core big bettors consume themselves with takeout.
Most others look for big fields and lots of races on a given day's program.
It is my observation that Mth's increase in field size has been the big draw.
Would I like to see takeouts reduced. You betcha. But doing that alone will not attract more people on track or increase handle off track.
Which is better, 5- 7 horse fields running for small purses with 10% takeouts or 11 horse fields ( more potential value plays) with 17% WPS/EX takeouts? I'm very small time win better. To me it is not even close I would take the 10% take out. The sad thing is that people like you don't realize that if they lowered the takeout to 10%, The handle would increase so much that they would not need subsidies to get Monmouth size purses.

thespaah

06-02-2010, 04:57 PM

If only people would try to figure things out for themselves before taking an internet shot. Obviously I included all handle.
I just took what you wrote as is.
In any event, my hope is that BOTH NJ and NYRA are successful. I am a supporter of NYRA. IMO NYRA is or should be what other racing jusrisdictions should be emulating.
The very idea that this year's Saratoga meet and "cancelled" were in the same sentence was appalling!
That's this year. What about NEXT year and the year after that. Are we going ot have to read that with each proceeding season is in jeopardy? Or is the Albany power structure going to wise up and take care of business?
How many trainers who have barns in NY are going to have second thoughts and make contingency plans to go elsewhere in anticipation of a NYRA shutdown?
We don't need this nonsense.

thespaah

06-02-2010, 05:01 PM

I'm very small time win better. To me it is not even close I would take the 10% take out. The sad thing is that people like you don't realize that if they lowered the takeout to 10%, The handle would increase so much that they would not need subsidies to get Monmouth size purses.
Perhaps.
I would like you to explain how you came up with the theory that lowered takeouts would increase handle by a similar number to this current Monmouth meet.

point given

06-02-2010, 05:46 PM

[QUOTE=The_Knight_Sky]They did 17 million for the corresponding two weekends last year.

http://i49.tinypic.com/116jts4.jpg

I'm sure there will be skeptics who may be quietly rooting "against" Monmouth Park.
But I think as a horseplayer you have to root for it.
Higher purses will lead to larger fields leading to more wagering.

At some point when the wagering "bottoms out" all racetracks will have
to address their takeout rates on the individual pools as well.

The 15% Pick 4 and Pick 5 has been well received and the numbers show it.
QUOTE]

I believe the Pick 5 is the only 15% pool at Monmouth, the P4 is higher.

I used to play the p5 when it was easier with short fields but I saw Sundays chart the there was a $200 horse in one leg and someone still hit it for $35,000.- It will probably never get carried over again at this years meet.

philcski

06-02-2010, 06:22 PM

Rutgers

06-02-2010, 07:57 PM

[QUOTE=point given]

Pick 4 is also 15%.

You are right though- it won't carry very often with the pool sizes being as big as they have been and a 50 cent minimum. Actually 5 people hit it on Monday for $35k apiece.

Do you know if it was in fact 5 people? Or was it one person who hit 5 times? Or something in between?

David-LV

06-02-2010, 08:53 PM

philcski

06-02-2010, 08:59 PM

[QUOTE=philcski]

Do you know if it was in fact 5 people? Or was it one person who hit 5 times? Or something in between?

I should say, 5 $.50 tickets ($2.50 total winning tickets.) No idea beyond that.

P.S. I like your handle name. ;) :ThmbUp:

FEARTHECHOMP

06-02-2010, 10:15 PM

Love the .50 pick 5 wager....Prob is racing this weekend there is mired by Belmont's card..

PaceAdvantage

06-03-2010, 03:11 AM

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=906672&postcount=17

posted in this thread, 5 minutes later... not sure why I bother, though.See...I knew you could do it...but I don't think it counts since it was actually posted AFTER your initial declaration, correct?

PaceAdvantage

06-03-2010, 03:13 AM

Disagree. Only hard core big bettors consume themselves with takeout. You write this as if the industry could live without hard core big bettors. Guess again.

philcski

06-03-2010, 11:15 AM

See...I knew you could do it...but I don't think it counts since it was actually posted AFTER your initial declaration, correct?

You're attempting to fan the flames of a dead argument... but I put up another one shortly thereafter.

thespaah

06-03-2010, 03:32 PM

You write this as if the industry could live without hard core big bettors. Guess again.Not at all.
We're talking about attendance, growing fan base, etc.
Truth is, I have always thought racetracks should do as casinos do and roll out the red carpet for big players.
The way I see it, the larger bettors will always be there, takeout or not. They'd sure like it if takepouts were reduced. Who wouldn't?
My point is, reducing a percentage few newbs and small players pay attetion to is not as significant as the other poster believes.
IMO he is posting from his point of view as he sees how things effect him directly.
Ya know what? I don't care if racetrack managements slash takeout or get monkeys to fly out of their asses to bring new fans to the sport. As long as it works.

skate

06-03-2010, 04:26 PM

I don't understand your negativity towards this, they are only 5 days into the meet and early returns it has been a success. Handle has increased from last year as measured against themselves not Belmont or Saratoga as some will make it to be, attendence has increased, the fields are better, the connections racing are better, there are higher profile jockies, I don't know about you but as a bettor I like full quality fields running for large purses and different horses facing each other rather than the same old tired lot beating each other...time and time again.

Like it or not there is a buzz this year at Monmouth, this old tired guard that always seems to resist change is tiresome, the only question is will this be sustainable in the long run. This is a fair question, however if you are a fan of racing, as I am I'll take the minimum 1 year experiment and enjoy the racing the rest of the meet. There's always Belmont for those that like the same menu week in week out... :sleeping:

Makes sense to me, take it one day at a time, so far so good.

skate

06-03-2010, 04:29 PM

Small problem....that post was made after your contention.

pickey pickey pickey.... point remains... good example...that's what was asked fer;)

skate

06-03-2010, 04:33 PM

I don't see anything wrong with being factual when you are discussing averages.

I guess it's OK if a teller short changes you 5% or so, every once and a while.

why.... you.... little.'teller' you. im gonna be keepin an eye on you.

skate

06-03-2010, 04:35 PM

Not at all.
We're talking about attendance, growing fan base, etc.
Truth is, I have always thought racetracks should do as casinos do and roll out the red carpet for big players.
The way I see it, the larger bettors will always be there, takeout or not. They'd sure like it if takepouts were reduced. Who wouldn't?
My point is, reducing a percentage few newbs and small players pay attetion to is not as significant as the other poster believes.
IMO he is posting from his point of view as he sees how things effect him directly.
Ya know what? I don't care if racetrack managements slash takeout or get monkeys to fly out of their asses to bring new fans to the sport. As long as it works.

OK, so it's another good point:jump: