Blame the people running the tracks

[Foolish Pleasure]

They are 100% at fault for where racing stands right now.

I think looking back on it, I think the worst thing that ever happened, and I'm all for transparency, but putting the statistics in the (Racing) Form as far as what the (trainers') winning percentages are is something I don't think has helped."

Holly Park president Leibau responds to a question as to why there are plenty of horses in CA but they not entering races.

SOmehow putting the trainers win % in the form is a cause.

Should not be running a racetrack.

http://www.sgvtribune.com/sports/ci_15179860

[PhantomOnTour]

No blame lies with the addicted horseplayer who will play and play and play no matter how badly the track treats him? We are to blame-not them. Horseplayers can't even get organized enough to withhold their monies from certain tracks to teach them a lesson....only lesson they learn is that we will bet NO MATTER WHAT.

"You know it's sad but true."
-James Hetfield (Metallica)

[DJofSD]

Reading the entire article puts it into ever so slightly a different light, but, he still comes off embarrasing himself.

As far as convience of betting goes, I wonder if he's heard of the internet and wagering from home?

[Tom]

If the danged horses did not carry saddle cloth numbers, no one would know how many horses are really running and would a lot happier.


Does this guy arrive at the tack in a little bus? :rolleyes::D

[PhantomOnTour]

The trainer win % thing really is a laugher.....as if Doug O'neill would have no idea what his win % were if it weren't printed in the Form.

[InsideThePylons-MW]

It's just impossible he said that.

Let me rephrase....It should be impossible he said that.

He's a.....

Racetrack executive

In California

Dolt

Nevermind....He probably said that.

Why is it that everytime someone in charge of racing in CA opens their mouth, anybody with an ounce of common sense realizes that CA racing is going to die?

[skate]

No blame lies with the addicted horseplayer who will play and play and play no matter how badly the track treats him? We are to blame-not them. Horseplayers can't even get organized enough to withhold their monies from certain tracks to teach them a lesson....only lesson they learn is that we will bet NO MATTER WHAT.

"You know it's sad but true."
-James Hetfield (Metallica)


Aaaa. good point.

[DJofSD]

Horseplayers can't even get organized enough to withhold their monies from certain tracks to teach them a lesson....only lesson they learn is that we will bet NO MATTER WHAT.


Why do bettors need to be organized in order to withhold their wagers? If you think that having a target is going to teach them a lesson, the only thing it will do is show them who are the addicts.

[rwwupl]

They are 100% at fault for where racing stands right now.



Holly Park president Leibau responds to a question as to why there are plenty of horses in CA but they not entering races.

SOmehow putting the trainers win % in the form is a cause.

Should not be running a racetrack.

http://www.sgvtribune.com/sports/ci_15179860



Yes, lack of horses is a California myth. There are horses, there are less horses available than a few years ago,Hollywood, Santa Anita and Del Mar used to typically have a "draw" of around 4,000 horses for a meet..now they have 2,500 to 3,000...but that is plenty to have reasonable cards to present.

Yes, the horsemen do not enter for some of the reasons stated above,and more,such as the "big name" trainers are now given as many stalls as they request,such as 100 stalls to keep them happy. They used to be limited to 36 -38 stalls.

This is a big problem because the big name trainers do not want their owners to race against other owners that are his clients... how does he explain to one owner that he got beat by another horse in the same barn (his) and why he did not get the leading jockey etc.,etc.

If the Racing Secretary says the Trainer will be punished for not racing certain horses enough, even though they are "race ready" the trainer says ...You punish me and I will take my whole stable else where.

Yes, there are enough horses, and the horsemen want the best deal they can get,but are forgetting it is their obligation to put on the best show possible for the public (with the track) and they have failed.

The TOC has no incentive program to encourage full fields .

rwwupl

[rastajenk]

The linked article refers to Liebau as a "longtime horseman," and he calls himself a risk-taker. I thought we liked horsemen executives around here...guess not.

[Igeteven]

Yes, lack of horses is a California myth. There are horses, there are less horses available than a few years ago,Hollywood, Santa Anita and Del Mar used to typically have a "draw" of around 4,000 horses for a meet..now they have 2,500 to 3,000...but that is plenty to have reasonable cards to present.

Yes, the horsemen do not enter for some of the reasons stated above,and more,such as the "big name" trainers are now given as many stalls as they request,such as 100 stalls to keep them happy. They used to be limited to 36 -38 stalls.

This is a big problem because the big name trainers do not want their owners to race against other owners that are his clients... how does he explain to one owner that he got beat by another horse in the same barn (his) and why he did not get the leading jockey etc.,etc.

If the Racing Secretary says the Trainer will be punished for not racing certain horses enough, even though they are "race ready" the trainer says ...You punish me and I will take my whole stable else where.

Yes, there are enough horses, and the horsemen want the best deal they can get,but are forgetting it is their obligation to put on the best show possible for the public (with the track) and they have failed.

The TOC has no incentive program to encourage full fields .

rwwupl

absolutely true, :ThmbUp:

[cnollfan]

I read the whole article, and while his comment blaming the Racing Form for including trainers' winning percentages is ludicrous, that's peripheral to the point he was making -- that many trainers are looking for "the perfect race" and are loath to enter a horse that they do not expect to win (unless it is the Kentucky Derby, which brings out the opposite). This is a valid point.

Just look at the winning percentages of the highest % trainers nowadays versus 20 years ago. It's about double. While one school of thought suspects that is due to some extracirricular vitamins, it could also be due in large part to the ultra-selectiveness by trainers that Liebau cites.

[Deepsix]

Liebau is also Youbet Chairman of the Board, isn't he? He's no dummy and his comment about trainer stats --- well, lots gets lost in the written word in an interview that is more than likely restricted to a certain number of words to meet his (Art Wilson's) column requirements. I take it as a sarcastic comment toward trainers and lack of entries, but WDIK.

Anyway, what is happening with CDI acquiring Youbet?? I haven't heard much lately.

[andymays]

Jack Liebau has been a powerful force in California racing for many years. He is as much to blame as anyone for the dysfunctional state of affairs out here.

California thought the future was synthetic surfaces and they were wrong on a number of levels. One of the reasons for installing them was that we would have full fields for years to come because the injury (not just fatality) rate would be almost nill. Wrong!

The money invested in the "stuff" would have kept purses to a level where they could have weathered this storm. Instead Breeders stopped breeding 3 years ago and the horse population will keep decreasing. Combine that with the fact that many connections are shipping elsewhere or leaving completely.

Big Shots with Big Egos always wreck things. Especially when they are constantly trying to one-up one another at the expense of the public interest. The CHRB has always been an enabler in this area.

Bottom line for me is "screw them". I'm playing Monmouth.

[LottaKash]

Bottom line for me is "screw them". .

Well said, Andy....:ThmbUp:

best,

[Foolish Pleasure]

Not hard to win 20% when they running 5 horse races.

This is the torch and burn generation of horsemen,

they getting less starts per horse than ever,

which obviously means need a higher horse population to support same number of races.

This idiot like so many in charge have been in charge while the titanic sinks-the thinking is incredibly limited and shortsighted borne from sucking the teat of government for decades and waking up one day actually having to compete for a living.

[kenwoodall2]

Liebau is also Youbet Chairman of the Board, isn't he? He's no dummy and his comment about trainer stats --- well, lots gets lost in the written word in an interview that is more than likely restricted to a certain number of words to meet his (Art Wilson's) column requirements. I take it as a sarcastic comment toward trainers and lack of entries, but WDIK.

Anyway, what is happening with CDI acquiring Youbet?? I haven't heard much lately.
IMHO, he is saying that big shot cheating trainers run Ca racing and can keep 1,000 stalls while those horses do not run, manyhorses using up free big-shot stalls should be on a layup farms or lose stalls if not entering.
Big shot trainers in a minor sport are given so much power by CHRB that they think they are something when no one from the general public would recognize them if crybabies like Baffert, Mullins, and others walked dowtown Los Angeles pulling a TC or BC winning horse behind them.
These crybaby cheaters are nothings whose employees run things on a very slight profit, and who are fooled by racing regulators into believing they can get away with bending or breaking rules without punishment.
As I reported in the past Ca is afraid to take 1 free stall away from a trainer who is caught cheating, or misusing stalls by not running healthy horses. Like I said before, card thoroughbred quarterhorse disances or let them go to Los Alamitos with their front-speed-demons they refuse to run on plubber. They just want free stalls to ship horses out of Ca from.

[DJofSD]

Do stall allocation numbers change during a race meeting?

[kenwoodall2]

Do stall allocation numbers change during a race meeting?
Stalls are assigned for the meet, and the trainer can replace a sick-vacationing horse with another for that stall. If a trainer gets 200 free stalls + office and employee space + areas to hotwalk, that trainer may be given up to 30,000 sq ft free business space in the city limits, supposedly contigent only upon following all track and racing rules, including clean from drugs and having horses that are ready to race at decent intervals. There is usually a list of (small) trainers and (small) owners waiting to get stalls.
Just ask Tom Schell!

[DJofSD]

Stalls are assigned for the meet, and the trainer can replace a sick-vacationing horse with another for that stall. If a trainer gets 200 free stalls + office and employee space + areas to hotwalk, that trainer may be given up to 30,000 sq ft free business space in the city limits, supposedly contigent only upon following all track and racing rules, including clean from drugs and having horses that are ready to race at decent intervals. There is usually a list of (small) trainers and (small) owners waiting to get stalls.
Just ask Tom Schell!
Thanks.

What about this: with the exception of stakes races, any horse leaving the state means the trainer looses the stall. And reviewed on a weekly basis. Of coarse, the trainers will object especially since it will likely upset the arrangement of horses in the barn. This is one way the small trainer can get a stall.

[PaceAdvantage]

Anyway, what is happening with CDI acquiring Youbet?? I haven't heard much lately.Probably a question for a different thread...

[Deepsix]

Yeah, I was just trying to change the subject. <grin> I'll try to refrain in the future.

[Jasonm921]

I get what he is saying......Lukas would run a horse anywhere just to see if he could win. Now the trainers are scared to run a horse in a difficult race because they don't want to lose.

[Stillriledup]

The trainer win % thing really is a laugher.....as if Doug O'neill would have no idea what his win % were if it weren't printed in the Form.


That's not what he's saying.

Its obvious that trainers would know their own stats, but owners and prospective owners wouldnt have the 'numbers' staring them in the face. His point was that a trainer's success going forward has everything to do with his win percentage. A trainer who keeps on winning 25% has a shot to get a Derby runner to train at some point while the guy who's batting 9% does not have as good of a chance. No rich owner is calling a 9% guy out of the blue to train this really expensive yearling he just purchased....but he WILL open up the DRF and cold call the 25% guy. THAT is why trainers dont want to just run em to run em.

its up to Liebau to MAKE these guys run horses. The first thing that the So cal tracks should do is to not give stalls to trainer who won't run horses. If a So cal trainer cant stable at Hol, SA or DMR, he or she is kind of screwed.

[Deepsix]

Stillriled, you layed that out very well.

[kenwoodall2]

Thanks.

What about this: with the exception of stakes races, any horse leaving the state means the trainer looses the stall. And reviewed on a weekly basis. Of coarse, the trainers will object especially since it will likely upset the arrangement of horses in the barn. This is one way the small trainer can get a stall.
How often will this above happen?
2,800 horses, max 140 races= 20 entries per race. Trainers are waiting 6 weeks for a race and keeping hu horses in thalls so they can collect day rates instead of saving owner money on layup costs. Run them as turf maiden claimer (NW3L dirt or Plubber) if healthy or lose the stall!

[jamey1977]

How often will this above happen?
2,800 horses, max 140 races= 20 entries per race. Trainers are waiting 6 weeks for a race and keeping hu horses in thalls so they can collect day rates instead of saving owner money on layup costs. Run them as turf maiden claimer (NW3L dirt or Plubber) if healthy or lose the stall!
If they are sound. Vet approved . Force these constipated trainers to run em. Run em and make them run em or they will risk fines or suspension. Who cares if it's the big ones. Their stuff doesn't stink ? What was the saying " Scared Money never wins " . Made For Magic dismissed at 9 to 1 beat the crap out of the stakes horses the other day. Don't enter a race if you will go off at 99 to 1. Enter a race where you will be competitive, within 10 of the Top Beyer in the field. Same class level. Scared money never wins and Scared trainers never win.

[Thomas Roulston]

And think of how many of those entries are AEs.

That's why larger/wider tracks would be such a boon to the industry.

[kenwoodall2]

And think of how many of those entries are AEs.

That's why larger/wider tracks would be such a boon to the industry.
Harry the Hat's article from another thread talks about big owners and trainers and stall space without racing- maybe AE is another way to keep the horse from running?

[kenwoodall2]

Harry the Hat's article from another thread talks about big owners and trainers and stall space without racing- maybe AE is another way to keep the horse from running?
I see in the condition book not many cheaper races for older.

[kenwoodall2]

Harry the Hat's article from another thread talks about big owners and trainers and stall space without racing- maybe AE is another way to keep the horse from running?
Why do I see on condition books SA mostly 4+up, but Hollywood 3+up and almost no 4+up? Time of year?

[Foolish Pleasure]

If the horses were sound they would be racing.
collect hundred dollar day rates and pass 5 horse races with tens of thousands in purses.

[cnollfan]

Why do I see on condition books SA mostly 4+up, but Hollywood 3+up and almost no 4+up? Time of year?

Yes, time of year. SA also cards quite a few races for straight 4 year olds.

A 3 year old that ran in a non-restricted claimer for 3 and up is taking a big class drop when he next runs against straight 3 year olds, even if the claiming price is higher, IMHO.

[toussaud]

3YO's generally don't start racing against older horses utnil the summer/late spring

you have to remember alot of these 3YO's aren't even 3 yet.

take a 3YO that was born in say may.

and you are in march, and are going to run your still 2YO in a mile race against grizzled vets on the socal claimer circuit lol, no thanks.

about the end of the socal met they start to merge together and it's just 3 and up. but the first 3 months of the year it's 3yo'S ONLY AND you even still have some 4YO only races

[kenwoodall2]

Thank you, I'm sure the weight chart has everything equalized then!!!!